Author Topic: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]  (Read 89993 times)

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Offline Rheostatic

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2012, 12:20:55 »
I read an article about a couple of guys who qualified as Rhodes scholars during their undergrad at RMC and proceded directly to masters programs.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2012, 12:24:04 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies? Obviously, this would require the individual to increase their length of commitment to the forces since they are pursuing more education but, is it even possible? And if it is, how popular is this route to receive a graduate degree?

I'm looking to receive a Bachelors of Science degree in Physics at R.M.C. and then attend graduate studies at R.M.C. for their Master's of Nuclear Science or Physics program (still sitting on the fence about this decision).


I'm sure it would be a popular route to a graduate degree, but it is not a common occurrence.  Can it happen? Yes, but don't plan on it.  DAOD 5049-1 Obligatory Service contains the following
Quote
Simultaneous Periods of Obligatory Service

Prior to the completion of a period of obligatory service, members are not normally permitted to incur more obligatory service. The Director General Military Careers (DGMC) must approve any exceptions. In those cases, the new period of obligatory service will be added to the unexpired portion of the previous period of obligatory service. The two periods will be served consecutively and in the order in which they are incurred.

Members cannot serve a period of obligatory service while receiving education or training that will incur additional obligatory service. The original period of obligatory service will be extended by the period of subsidized education or training.

There are, however, exceptions to almost every rule.  During my career I knew a few officers who were able to immediately go from undergrad to graduate studies, however it seemed that they (if from RMC) usually went to a different institution - perhaps it was because they were "invited" and received (non CF) financial incentives (scholarships) to pursue that higher programme.  CFAO 9-33 (no longer available on the internet) was the regulation governing post-graduate education subsidization.  Annex B of that order deals with the scenario you describe and used to begin with; (my version is from an old OLTRS disk)
Quote
CFAO 9-33
ANNEX B --TRAINING ON SCHOLARSHIPS PROGRAMME

PURPOSE

1.   This annex prescribes the policy and procedures governing the
acceptance of post-graduate (PG) scholarships by officers of the Regular
Force following graduation from baccalaureate level university courses.

ELIGIBILITY

2.   For the purpose of this annex, eligibility extends to officers of the
Regular Force who are in their final year of baccalaureate study attending
a Canadian Military College or university under:

     a.   the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) -CFAO 9-12;

     b.   the University Training Plan -Non-commissioned members (UTPM) -
          CFAO 9-13;

     c.   the University Training Plan -Officers (UTPO) -CFAO 9-40; or

     d.   special authority while on leave without pay (LWOP).

3.   Receipt of a PG scholarship by an officer of the Regular Force does
not automatically imply that the officer will be permitted by NDHQ to
proceed on such training.

4.   Eligibility to proceed on scholarship training will take into account:

     a.   the officer's academic and military records;

     b.   the military applicability of the PG course; and

     c.   the prestige associated with the scholarship.

5.   Preference will be given to those scholarships that are universally
recognized, such as the Rhodes scholarship.  As a further guide,
scholarships that will be considered by NDHQ will normally be those in the
high dollar value range that do not require the candidate to expend more
than six hours of work a week for the university concerned.  Scholarships
usually considered as teaching or research assistant-ships offered by
universities are, for purposes of the PG programme, not considered to be
prestigious and therefore are excluded.

ANNUAL QUOTA

6.   No specific quotas are established for PG scholarship training.
Attendance will be determined annually by NDHQ, based on the availability
of officers and current military requirements.
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Offline SentryMAn

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2012, 12:29:55 »
Pheobe;
The other side of this is why do a Under grad and then grad at the same university in the same discipline?  You will be essentially learning the same information from the same professors with the same sight on the topics.



Offline jwtg

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2012, 17:22:15 »
As has been stated many times, there are opportunities but they are few and limited to the most competitive students.  They are also subject to budgets, and to the discretion of your career manager.

There's been a few presentations (I haven't listened closely because at this point I'm mostly interested in simply completing my current undergraduate studies at RMC) where people have mentioned something called 'PGonscol' or something like that.  I believe it stands for post-graduate studies on scholarship, and as I understand it, you secure a place in a graduate studies program, secure scholarship funding, and hope your branch says that you can go.

So, the simplest answer is yes, it is possible.  There are opportunities you can inquire about and apply for, but they are far from guaranteed.  Make sure you're satisfied with the idea of finishing your undergrad and then training/working in your trade, because that is far and away the most common route through RMC.
Good luck!

Offline Phobos

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 23:34:50 »
Thanks for the comments everyone. If I don't end up being considered a competitive student for graduate studies, then I'll likely pursue it after my commitment to the forces. Though, that is still very long away and I may enjoy my trade so much I may believe a post grad degree may be unnecessary.

Again, thanks! everyone!

-Phoebe  :cdn:   
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2012, 10:02:59 »
Quite a few officers continue on with grad studies after the initial recruiting/training dust settles and they've learned the gist of their job.

If you're not posted to a major city, there are numerous distance learning options available. There's also a graduate degree option tied to the Command and Staff College programme, although it's not in Nuclear Science.


Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.  ;)
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Offline Phobos

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2012, 21:56:49 »

Of course, by that point you may consider yourself a military officer with an interest in nuclear physics, rather than a researcher who wears a uniform to get schooling paid for.  ;)

If you're trying to make the statement that I am just trying to get free schooling dear sir, you're sadly mistaken. I'm simply trying to pursue my major interests in life, both those related to the defence of this nation and to the advancement of my knowledge related to science.

Let me also add, If I'm not found worthy to attend R.M.C. I plan to reapply as an N.C.O. for Infantry.

-Phoebe  :cdn:
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Offline MCG

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 22:17:03 »
        Is it possible to go through ROTP at R.M.C., receive a bachelor's degree and the immediately move on to graduate studies?
Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.


Offline MJP

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2012, 22:29:22 »
Apparently there are a handfull every year (4 to 5 is the number that I was given from RMC last summer).  With all the students that start at RMC, that is not a significant number.  I would not recommend anyone plan to be one of those 4 to 5.

... I also question if this is really a good idea for an institution that is supposed to be launching officers into their careers.

Civi U ROTP (and UTPNCMs) are accepted as well.  I knew one that got accepted this year but turned it down for some good reasons.
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Offline Trick

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2012, 04:04:54 »
Hi all,

This is probably a better question for a recruiter, but I don't have much time during the work day to sit on hold with the NB office which is busy these days and besides, I imagine I'm not the only person in this situation.

I'd like to go to RMC to study Military Science. The potential problem though is I'm 24 and already have an undergraduate degree in Science. Will this preclude me from doing ROTP at RMC as technically I already qualify for most officer trades (especially as Military Science isn't required for any trades as far as I know).

Thanks,

Offline jeffb

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2012, 17:25:26 »
Just a thought, have you considered doing a Masters in Military Studies instead of a second degree? Spending four years to essentially get the same level of academic standing MAY not help you all that much if you are doing it for career purposes.
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Offline Trick

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2012, 19:10:25 »
I have, but honestly I'm not sure how well I could do in a Masters setting considering my undergraduate training is in science. While I hate the stereotype that scientists/engineers can't write, it is also true that I probably can't write a very good historical essay. Though if anyone has any input on that I'd also be interested. That said, the only career I'm interested in with regards to Military Science would be being an officer in the CF. If I was to stay in the civilian world I'd probably just stay in medical research. While I wouldn't mind doing a Masters in Military Science as a civilian and then applying as a DEO, I'm not sure I can really afford another 2ish years of being a student again- especially as there's not guarantee I'd be offered a position.

From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I don't have an engineering degree?

Offline matthew1786

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2012, 01:38:34 »
From what I've read in the past you can't do ROTP if you already have a valid degree for that trade. I just wanted to confirm that. I was also wondering what would happen if I wanted to be an Engineering Officer for example- would it be possible to do ROTP then as I don't have an engineering degree?

1. I can't confirm that but it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
2. I think that depends on what your major is for your Bsc. Some, albeit very few, are acceptable (but not preferable) degrees for the EngO trade.

Offline siuto

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2012, 10:50:03 »
Hi,

I have a similiar question. I have MA and BA degree in Linguistics. I passed CFAT for all officers however right now I only have one choice to choose from because of the availbility and I can't pass level 3 security at this point.
So I am consider to take a post baccalaureate program in criminology or take another degree like politic science so that I will be qualified for more other trades.
Because I already got the basic credits (ie electives) toward a degree, if I take another degree I can finish it in 2 years instead of 4 years. After finishing the first master I really dont want to go through it again and would like to learn the basics from other major. So my question will be: Do they let you to take a second degree in this way?
Thanks.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2012, 12:23:30 »
My understanding is that you will only be subsidized for a degree at RMC (or at a Civvie U via ROTP) if you do not hold a degree that fulfills the requirements for the trade for which you have been selected. Thus someone with a Nursing degree who wants to be an Engineering Officer would be able to get an engineering degree at RMC, someone with an engineering degree who wants to be a Nursing Officer would be able to get a nursing degree at a civvie U (since RMC doesn't do nursing degrees), but to get in under the ROTP you would need to be applying for a trade which has actual requirements that you don't meet.

There's a matrix out there that lists various types of degrees and various trades, annotating whether or not (for ROTP) they are "preferred" "fully acceptable" "acceptable" or "not subsidized". If you already have a degree, in order to be eligible for ROTP entry into a particular trade, the degree you already have would have to be, by my understanding, listed as "not subsidized". Unfortunately, the copy of the table that I've been able to find online was scanned in with absolutely terrible quality, so it's kinda hard to read. I might be able to help you figure out if your degree would be considered acceptable for the trade you want if you let me know which trade it is you're looking for, or your recruiting centre should have an actually legible copy of the table (in Annex A of CFAO 9-12 Regular Officer Training Plan)

That having been said, for siuto, I think you may be out of luck with the plan to take a 2nd criminology degree, as as far as I can tell, there are no trades which consider a criminology degree to be acceptable that don't consider a "languages" degree to be acceptable. With a linguistics degree (let alone the MA) you're alredy considered better suited academically for every trade that would accept a criminology degree other than the security grouping (I think Military Police Officer might be the only trade in this branch), which ranks criminology as a "preferred" degree and languages as a "fully acceptable" degree.

For Trick, when you said that if you stick on civvie street that you'd probably continue on in medical research. Is it safe to say that your BSc is in biology / biochemistry? If so, that degree would not be acceptable for EngO (or CELE, EME, MSEO, NCSEO, AERE), and you should remain eligible for entry under ROTP to those trades.
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Offline Wolseleydog

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2012, 21:19:10 »
Whether or not you should got to RMC is one thing.

What you should understand is that if you go to RMC (as other than a UTPNCM, which I gather is not an issue), then there is only one way in -- as a recruit, then four year Officer Cadet.  It's not a "second degree", its a four year apprenticeship.

If you are mid-twenties, already have a university degree, and are interested in a military career, then perhaps you should look into DEO. 

If you qualify for DEO.... then why would you go to RMC? 
If you don't qualify for DEO... then why would you qualify for RMC?

Lastly, the questions one should always ask aren't about RMC -- they are about military service, and what you think about that...

Offline Army Gal

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2012, 21:59:54 »
Ok so this question is kinda hard to word so bare with me lol

This is my plan:
I am ncm and am looking to start my undergrad through distance education that I am going to pay myself. After my undergrad I want to get my masters and have the military pay for it because I can't work full time and ill have to attend a university.
After my university I want to get my officer.
Although its a few years down the road, was told that I can apply for officer after 2 years from ncm. Is this true?
I just don't want to do 10 years-ish as ncm and then start at the bottom when I go officer. I will but it would be much better if can start officer sooner

Can anyone help?
Its kind of confusing and if you don't understand let me know ha ha

Offline Ditch

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2012, 23:43:21 »
Why would the CF pay for your Masters?

Are you RegF?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2012, 00:09:58 »
I agree that the question is confusing - that is, the way you wrote it is confusing.

If I understand:

* You're planning to complete an undergrad degree while serving as an NCM.

If that is the case, talk to the Base Personnel Selection Officer (BPSO) once you're posted to a base - there are CF resources to support you in that.

* Once you have some military experience and your undergrad degree, you'd like to become an officer.

If that is the case, there are several routes that are possible.  They depend on a number of things, and again, your BPSO can advise you.  For example, certain commissioning plans do not provide further training or development or possibility of promotion; they are to fill short-term gaps - those are aimed at senior CWOs and MWOs without many more years to serve.  Other plans have other limitations, and they do change over time.  BPSOs should have up to date information about your options.

* Once you are an officer, you'd like to do a master's degree

There are a limited number of programs, all competitive, where you can seek to do a master's degree fully paid by the CF.  You will have obligatory service to complete following your studies, and you will have limited selection in the programs you can take,. as those programs are intended to fill a military requirement, not necessarily meet whatever personal aspirations you may have.  For example, to my knowledge there are no positions for someone to do a masters in English Literature.  Again, the BPSO knows the programs and can assist and advise.

* Finally, you're concerned about starting at the bottom again if commissioned as an officer.

There is no way around this.  Depending on commissioning plan, which in turn may depend on your NCM rank if you become an officer, the highest rank you could possibly begin at would be Major.  To be commissioned as a 2Lt with simultaneous promotion to Major, you would have to be a CWO who had filled one of the most senior appointments in the Canadian Forces - for example, Canadian Forces Chief Warrant Officer, or Chief Warrant Officer of the RCAF.  As a rule of thumb, though, if you are commissioned under a plan that will see you have a future with progression, you'd probably be commissioned as a 2Lt, possibly with simultaneous promotion to Lt.  From there you would work through the system like every other new officer.  Depending on your NCM and officer occupations you may receive some credit for training and experience or not; you would go through the training system and then progress like every other officer in your occupation.
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Offline Occam

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2012, 00:22:56 »
You only have a couple of options, once you're already in - and judging by your previous posts, you start BMQ next month, so you're already in.

1.  Apply for UTPNCM when you're eligible, and if accepted, go to RMC or civvy U for a Bachelor's.  If you're lucky and smart, I have heard of UTPs rarely being offered to do their Masters immediately after undergrad.  I know all of two people in 26 years in who got offered this, so I suspect it's not thrown out very often.  Do a search of this site for entrance requirements for UTPNCM.  You'll have to do more than two years...I seem to recall it's closer to four.  The BPSO has information on all of this.

2.  Do your Bachelor's part time under the Reg F Education Reimbursement program, funded 100% by the CF.  Then try to get your ILP approved for a Masters...which is possible according to the MIL PERS Instruction, but I'll bet it's pretty damned competitive.  Again, see the BPSO.

No matter how you slice it, you have a tough road ahead of you.  If you had degrees in mind, why didn't you pursue ROTP?

P.S.  dapaterson spelled it out quite nicely.  See the BPSO...once you finish BMQ, trades training, and get posted to your first operational unit, that is...

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2012, 00:24:10 »
so bare with me lol

I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........
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Offline Occam

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2012, 00:36:47 »
I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........

Maintaining focus is very.....SQUIRREL!!!!!!   ;D

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2012, 00:42:49 »
I'm sorry,...everything else faded away after this.........

I managed to hang on until:
After my university I want to get my officer.
Lucky officer.....or not  :dunno:
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Offline Wookilar

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2012, 13:25:57 »
Having been down the road you are looking at, it takes time.

You can start university on your own any bloody time you want. However, I really do not see why you would want to pay for it yourself? There are criteria to it of course, but once you get to your first unit, go see your BPSO and find out what they are to get reimbursed for any courses you want to do that lead to your initial degree. There are no strings attached to an ncm getting their first degree paid for and no real requirement to commission after that (as long as you do it part time over X number of years). I believe that you need to be QL5 before you can be reimbursed for any courses, but as mentioned above, talk to the BPSO. If you want to pay for it yourself before then, go for it.

As for post-grad, that is a bit of a different kettle of fish. There is no way for an ncm to get the CF to pay for your Masters unless you compete for one of the commissioning programs (Special Commissioning would be the one you would be looking at) and are accepted into an officer trade that requires a Masters level degree. Social Worker is the only one that comes to mind, but the various medical types and maybe lawyer may as well.

All this is prefaced to say, good luck with completing your degree part time. It took me 5 years of part-time study to complete 1st year uni. That's 5 years in a field unit, with all the things that go along with it. If you are in any kind of operational unit, you will be many years to complete a Bachelors. Can it be done? Absolutely, ncm's finish degrees all the time. For most, they are finishing what they have already started. Starting from scratch will not be easy, fast or cheap.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Graduate Studies / Master Degree / PhD [MERGED]
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2012, 14:31:48 »
Further to Wookliar's post: Many NCMs have higher education.  I had a wonderful chat once with a Reg F Cpl who was about to defend his doctoral thesis; in the Reserves, I know of a Cpl who once took the time to counsel a Reg F Colonel on choices in Masters programs, as he'd just completed one.

One important point to remember, though, is not to confuse academic knowledge with real-world skills.  The real world does not always align nicely with academic theory...
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