Author Topic: Tac Flying, Kiowa Style.  (Read 9841 times)

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Online Loachman

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« on: August 21, 2007, 22:59:25 »
It's all good training. I remember when I was in Pet they used to buzz over Muskrat Lake to check out the cottages in the Kiowas....contour flying.
It wasn't the cottages.

And contour flying was for Slugs (Twin Hueys). We did NOE.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 05:57:58 »
It wasn't the cottages.

And contour flying was for Slugs (Twin Hueys). We did NOE.

I was being polite about the cottages...hehehehe
Remind me what NOE is....when I was Padre for 427 I got up with the Twin Hueys and the Kiowas....it was lots of fun.

Offline krustyrl

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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 06:05:27 »
Nap of The Earth flying             ;)

Online Loachman

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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 06:48:09 »
When were you 427 Squadron's Padre? I was there from 82-86.

I never saw any interesting non-cottages along Muskrat Lake, to tell the truth - it was just a good stretch to fly along when going to/coming back from points further in that direction.

The Ottawa River loop around the Beachburg area and north shore of the Ottawa west of Deep River wer far better hunting grounds, and there were random non-cottages spotted elsewhere as well.

Then there was the legendary Barroness...

Yes, Nape of the Earth. Our tactical limits were skids clear of ground. The slugs limits were fifteen feet above obstacles. I could fly under something that high.

Offline Rick Ruter

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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 10:29:45 »
Yes, Nape of the Earth. Our tactical limits were skids clear of ground. The slugs limits were fifteen feet above obstacles. I could fly under something that high.

Loachman, I cringe   :rules: when I read stuff like I could fly under something that high. Usually pictures start coming out and I'm afraid I'll be on one or two. 8)
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Online Loachman

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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 19:29:19 »
At my tactical limits, my main rotor would have been lower than a Twin Huey's skids at its tactical limits. It's as simple as that: nothing more than an illustration of the differences between those limits.

On the CH136 course, all pilots and observers were trained in underwire drills.

In 444 Squadron, we routinely flew under wires and bridges, in accordance with all applicable flying orders.

Did I ever/would I have flown under something actually 15 feet AGL? Not bloody likely, in peacetime at least.

Don't get so worked up over nothing.

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 19:54:57 »
When were you 427 Squadron's Padre? I was there from 82-86.

I never saw any interesting non-cottages along Muskrat Lake, to tell the truth - it was just a good stretch to fly along when going to/coming back from points further in that direction.

The Ottawa River loop around the Beachburg area and north shore of the Ottawa west of Deep River wer far better hunting grounds, and there were random non-cottages spotted elsewhere as well.

Then there was the legendary Barroness...

Yes, Nape of the Earth. Our tactical limits were skids clear of ground. The slugs limits were fifteen feet above obstacles. I could fly under something that high.

90-92..I was also with RCD which was my major unit but I tried to get down there as much as I could...did a winter ex with them in 92 which was lots of fun, crazy Yves Grenier was my neighbour in Q's and I got a few flights with him...he'd just got back from 444 so he had a cellar full of wine...of course I had to help him drink it from time to time (sacramental duty  ;D)

Offline TCBF

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 23:54:55 »
Nothing we hated more in a Lynx than a Kiowa we were working with hovering over top of our Lynx - barely.  Blew pine needles into the Heineken and sucked the latest copy of "The Stars And Stripes" out of Carl's hatch!

It got so bad, some CC's started taking up positions under hydro wires so the Kiowa's would stay a bit further away.

Well...  We all know how THAT turned out, don't we?

 :o

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Offline GK .Dundas

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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2007, 01:33:45 »
 Yup! You could alway tell where the lead recce vehicle was all one had to do was to look for the Kiowa.  The Lynx would directly beneath it the pilots used to stick to them like glue. I always wondered if they were lonely or something?
An old friend of mine used to have a super 8 film of a lynx crew throwing what looked like rocks ) at a Kiowa. Do'nt know but I suspect it was a staged gag.
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Online Loachman

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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2007, 05:25:19 »
Yup! You could alway tell where the lead recce vehicle was all one had to do was to look for the Kiowa.  The Lynx would directly beneath it the pilots used to stick to them like glue. I always wondered if they were lonely or something?

Well, that wasn't supposed to happen, and any Kiowa anywhere near a Lynx never had me in it.

We were supposed to be in a position of observation off on a flank somewhere. We weren't supposed to ever be out in front of the lead recce c/s doctrinally, but I frequently ignored that if terrain permitted.

Offline George Wallace

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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2007, 07:07:46 »
Well, that wasn't supposed to happen, and any Kiowa anywhere near a Lynx never had me in it.

We were supposed to be in a position of observation off on a flank somewhere. We weren't supposed to ever be out in front of the lead recce c/s doctrinally, but I frequently ignored that if terrain permitted.

I agree with Loachman.   I never had any Kiowa flying near me.  On the other hand, when I saw one (Enemy Force) he would be my first Tgt, as he was the eyes and ears for the Cobras.  Without him they were flying blind.
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Offline 3rd Herd

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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2007, 11:42:06 »
I have a rather good photo I took which provides some evidence to this debate. Being infantry at the time I am a neutral in this Helli verses Lynx. I can be persuaded to either post it in the near future or put it back in my archivies.  ;D
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Offline Good2Golf

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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2007, 11:56:03 »
I have a rather good photo I took which provides some evidence to this debate. Being infantry at the time I am a neutral in this Helli verses Lynx. I can be persuaded to either post it in the near future or put it back in my archivies.  ;D

Even better would be a tail number and date and we could rifle through Loachman's logbook to see if he was all talk about avoiding Lynxes.  >:D

G2G

Offline 3rd Herd

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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2007, 12:10:44 »
The date no problem, have to dig out my old maps and can also provide a grid. Tail number I cannot enlarge the photo large enough to read.( I would most likely be accused of photo enhancement anyway) The geography department also tries desperately to keep me away from the stereoscopes and sterometers. To many TAs have shudders when they realize the "Burt the Turtle" drills were for real.  ;D
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Online Loachman

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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 12:22:07 »
I would have landed nearby a few times for an RV, but never when one was in contact or close to it.

And I now recall going to have a look at one buried in a manure pile in a farmyard one afternoon because I couldn't believe that anybody would voluntarily hide there - I don't think that smell prevents detection. It wasn't in contact either.

Offline geo

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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 13:01:45 »
heh... Manure pile probably fell down on top of track after it paused nearby (propwash from kiowa?)....
no one in his right mind would do that under non-whooting war conditions :)
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2007, 16:32:45 »
At my tactical limits, my main rotor would have been lower than a Twin Huey's skids at its tactical limits. It's as simple as that: nothing more than an illustration of the differences between those limits.

On the CH136 course, all pilots and observers were trained in underwire drills.

In 444 Squadron, we routinely flew under wires and bridges, in accordance with all applicable flying orders.

Did I ever/would I have flown under something actually 15 feet AGL? Not bloody likely, in peacetime at least.

Don't get so worked up over nothing.

Just pulling your leg man. I was in Haiti and Bosnia. Flew under (and also into once) wires a few times.
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Online Loachman

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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2007, 23:22:12 »
heh... Manure pile probably fell down on top of track after it paused nearby (propwash from kiowa?)....
no one in his right mind would do that under non-whooting war conditions :)

It was too big and wide to fall over, and surrounded on three sides by concrete. It wasn't going anywhere without a major earthquake or flood. Maybe they were relying on the clouds of flies to hide them. My observer recognized them and didn't seem surprised that it was that particular crew in there.

Rotorwash - only one helicopter (Cheyenne) comes to mind with a propeller.

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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2007, 23:26:08 »
Just pulling your leg man.

Well please pull the other one, then, as the additional length onthis side is making things awkward.

Flew under (and also into once) wires a few times.

Another two things in common.

Offline Strike

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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2007, 23:43:19 »
And you brag about that?  ;D (The through wire event I mean.)
Stop assuming I'm a man!

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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2007, 23:46:37 »
 :pop:

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2007, 00:10:38 »
And you brag about that?  ;D (The through wire event I mean.)

Which one of us? I wasn't, and I don't think that Rick was either.

It's a useful experience, but one to avoid getting at all costs (although there was some humour in the aftermath of mine).

I am constantly surprised at the lack of wire awareness in 1 Wing today - a natural development, given that we so seldom operate at tactical altitudes in inhabited civilian territory - but more effort should be made.

Admitting one's mistakes willingly, openly, and publically is one of the fundamentals of our flight safety programme and I'll talk about mine whenever I feel that it'll save somebody else from a repeat.

I'm damned glad that that windmill generator was only a simulation though...

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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2007, 00:17:34 »
Quote
(although there was some humour in the aftermath of mine)

If there wasn't then you would be considered waaayyyy too serious -- which I know you aren't.   Just passionate, which can be easily confused.   ;)

As for that windmill, it was always those two dimentional trees that suddenly appeared out of nowhere that got me.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Online Loachman

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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2007, 00:21:46 »
As for that windmill, it was always those two dimentional trees that suddenly appeared out of nowhere that got me.

Try flying with Lyle next time.

Offline George Wallace

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2007, 10:01:02 »
Now, wasn't that little pond outside the ammo compound in Lahr one of Triple 4's favourite NOE test grounds?
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