Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 549690 times)

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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1975 on: August 20, 2019, 17:34:47 »
Sadly I expect that new gun and turret is not that expensive in the scheme of things.

I heard recently that cost was the killer of a larger gun, no proof of that however.  The gun itself, the crew costs, the shore support, ammunition issues etc...

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1976 on: August 20, 2019, 21:41:12 »
I am sure they see it that way, as I have seen so many government purchases that can only do half the job because they could save money on "extra's".

Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1977 on: August 21, 2019, 10:40:39 »
I think one of the biggest problems people have with the main gun on AOPS is it's sort of undefined nature. It's not big enough to be talked about as something to be used in case things really get out of hand, away from support. But it's also kind of overkill for almost all of its other likely mission profiles. Since it will be operating in essentially the same waters as MCDV'S and in very similar roles, you would assume that their weapons suites would be similar. But, threat assessments done for the MCDV missions show only a need for .50 cal machine guns. If there has ever been anything stated about what the expected role of this weapon is, I'd be interested to hear. The DS30M has a higher firing rate and better elevation and is essentially an upgrade to the MK38. Why was the 25mm chosen?

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1978 on: August 21, 2019, 11:09:33 »
I think one of the biggest problems people have with the main gun on AOPS is it's sort of undefined nature. It's not big enough to be talked about as something to be used in case things really get out of hand, away from support. But it's also kind of overkill for almost all of its other likely mission profiles. Since it will be operating in essentially the same waters as MCDV'S and in very similar roles, you would assume that their weapons suites would be similar. But, threat assessments done for the MCDV missions show only a need for .50 cal machine guns. If there has ever been anything stated about what the expected role of this weapon is, I'd be interested to hear. The DS30M has a higher firing rate and better elevation and is essentially an upgrade to the MK38. Why was the 25mm chosen?

At a guess - it was chosen because the 25mm, its parts and ammunition are in service.  The .50 has been on life-support for 50 years, variously in and out of service.  Also the 25mm is/was in service with the RAN Armidale OPVs, the RNZN Protector OPVs and HMNZS Canterbury, and the USCG Island Patrol Boats, amongst others.   The RN River OPVs (Batch 1) were kitted with 20mm while Batch 2 is fitted with 30mm.  The British forces do not conventionally use any 25mm weapons having settled on 30mm years ago with the introduction of the Rarden in the Scimitar back in the '70s.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1979 on: August 21, 2019, 11:21:56 »
I was told many years ago that there was a form of exemption for some transit fees in certain places - ie Panama Canal, for warships in particular, but for a warship to be exempt, it had to have a mounted weapons system.  IE a deck gun.  The fitting of guns dates back to the Preserver class - which had a 3"50 mounted on the foc'sle to provide this exemption for them. 

This may be wrong - but I think it's actually a part of the consideration.

As for why the 25mm?  Parts/ammunition commonality, and theoretically, training system commonality too.

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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1980 on: August 21, 2019, 12:38:35 »
I get the economic aspects and economy of scale, but I'm still not sure what the defined role is for the gun. And if the threat assessments show it to be a valid asset to the ship, then should it not also be on the MCDV, given the similarities in roles?

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1981 on: August 21, 2019, 14:36:35 »
I get the economic aspects and economy of scale, but I'm still not sure what the defined role is for the gun. And if the threat assessments show it to be a valid asset to the ship, then should it not also be on the MCDV, given the similarities in roles?

I think the answer should be pretty straight forward:

With a 25mm Stab Gun, Helicopter Bay, Ability to carry multiple SO RHIBs, True Ops & Planning Space, Cargo Carrying Capacity, Vehicle Bay, Link 16 Capability/Extensive Sensor Suite/etc

They expect this Ship to be able to do what an MCDV does, only a whole lot better and they also expect it to be able to do other tasks that the MCDV cannot do.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1982 on: August 21, 2019, 14:50:16 »
You could place the 57mm upfront with the 25mm aft and HMG on both sides. That would provide commonality with the Halifax's and the MCDV if they ever get around to it. Without putting to much of a strain on logistics, costs and training.

Seems to be a very well liked gun and in use all around the world on a variety of size and ship types.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1983 on: August 22, 2019, 20:15:26 »
h/t to Sandy McClearn over on Twitter: HdW gun is installed, looks good!!. Brooke is on the lift behind her.

https://twitter.com/sandymcclearn/status/1164500655668699137

 Maybe someone can walk us through the hull openings where the ship's boats are stored? Chief?
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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1984 on: August 22, 2019, 20:44:16 »
h/t to Sandy McClearn over on Twitter: HdW gun is installed, looks good!!. Brooke is on the lift behind her.

https://twitter.com/sandymcclearn/status/1164500655668699137

 Maybe someone can walk us through the hull openings where the ship's boats are stored? Chief?

Gun has been on for a while now.  Forward port boat deck is for a Rescue Boat, aft port is for a Survival Boat.  Other side (which you can't see) fwd is for the starboard Rescue Boat and  aft for the boarding RHIB.

The HDW is doing HVAC trials either now or soon, which takes over a month to do.  Ensuring all the spaces are properly ventilated, cooled and heated. When those are complete there are builders sea trials etc...  The ships delivery date has been pushed back to October timeframe.  The other ships are still on schedule for their original delivery dates (due to lessons learned with the first build).

Fun facts: the ship will not have a traditional "brow" but will have a self deploying gangway, even in home port.  The shore cables for power will be unrolled from the ship with a powered handling drum.  The foc'sle part ship hands consists of 3 people controlling two self tensioning capstans.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1985 on: August 23, 2019, 08:49:48 »
Not living in Halifax, I hadn't noticed until now -when HdW is nearly complete and we can see most of her electronics - how well equiped she will be in the detection/electronic intel gathering/communications fields. This is a lot higher than the publicly sourced information could lead one to believe and head and shoulders above what the MCDV's could provide (sorry, Chief!).

From what I can see, they will be very powerfull platforms up in the North to serve as communication nodes, elint gathering platforms and coordination center for activities by the RCN and also the Army/Rangers and RCAF over large swats of the Arctic where deployed. Makes me wonder if the two Coast Guard ones will have the same or will get dumbed-down "civilian" electronics usually found on the CCG icebreakers.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1986 on: August 23, 2019, 11:26:14 »
Not living in Halifax, I hadn't noticed until now -when HdW is nearly complete and we can see most of her electronics - how well equiped she will be in the detection/electronic intel gathering/communications fields. This is a lot higher than the publicly sourced information could lead one to believe and head and shoulders above what the MCDV's could provide (sorry, Chief!).

From what I can see, they will be very powerfull platforms up in the North to serve as communication nodes, elint gathering platforms and coordination center for activities by the RCN and also the Army/Rangers and RCAF over large swats of the Arctic where deployed. Makes me wonder if the two Coast Guard ones will have the same or will get dumbed-down "civilian" electronics usually found on the CCG icebreakers.

No worries Oldgateboatdriver. You may be interested that there are all kinds of payloads in the works for the HDW, some of which has been and in the process of being trialed on the Kingston Class. One of the bigger omissions from the HDW Class is the multi-beam echo sounder for the Class, this what you need to conduct hydro graphic work and is the same as what the Kingston Class uses. The 20 man mess, briefing rooms, boarding party staging areas are all in support to transport other government department to various taskings which is one its missions.
It will be great to see the HDW Class ply the waters of the Arctic, Africa and the Caribbean and elsewhere taking some of the pressure off the Kingston Class although you will be seeing the Kingston Class still sailing to these areas. I'm a very large proponent for this Class of ship and what it can do and hope to be sailing in one in the future.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1987 on: August 23, 2019, 12:32:53 »
No worries Oldgateboatdriver. You may be interested that there are all kinds of payloads in the works for the HDW, some of which has been and in the process of being trialed on the Kingston Class. One of the bigger omissions from the HDW Class is the multi-beam echo sounder for the Class, this what you need to conduct hydro graphic work and is the same as what the Kingston Class uses. The 20 man mess, briefing rooms, boarding party staging areas are all in support to transport other government department to various taskings which is one its missions.
It will be great to see the HDW Class ply the waters of the Arctic, Africa and the Caribbean and elsewhere taking some of the pressure off the Kingston Class although you will be seeing the Kingston Class still sailing to these areas. I'm a very large proponent for this Class of ship and what it can do and hope to be sailing in one in the future.

I gotta say Chief, I wasn't that interested in the AOPS class as like I said before, "It's just not a warship" however, your posts have been very informative and they have def made me more interested.  I also think some of the Missions they do could be very rewarding and fun.

Consider my opinion changed!

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1988 on: August 23, 2019, 16:50:30 »
I am assuming the accommodations will be nicer than the Halifax's and MCDV, but not quite to Asterix standards? In which case they may come as a nice break for people who sail almost exclusively on the Halifax's?

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1989 on: August 23, 2019, 17:17:31 »
I gotta say Chief, I wasn't that interested in the AOPS class as like I said before, "It's just not a warship" however, your posts have been very informative and they have def made me more interested.  I also think some of the Missions they do could be very rewarding and fun.

Consider my opinion changed!

I'm keeping an ear on the AOPS 'stuff' and have found the same thing....the more 'good gen' I hear, the more I hope to sail on one too (the RCAF is converting me to a rotor-head this fall).  That would be a pretty good Det IMO, flying around Canada's north in the warmer months and would probably look/feel very different than it did from the Aurora or on the ground in Resolute in Feb.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 17:20:16 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1990 on: August 23, 2019, 17:49:09 »
I am assuming the accommodations will be nicer than the Halifax's and MCDV, but not quite to Asterix standards? In which case they may come as a nice break for people who sail almost exclusively on the Halifax's?

Yes the cabins are nice and no nothing to Asterix standards because that is a unique situation that has caused lots of issues.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1991 on: August 23, 2019, 18:46:17 »
Have they released any pictures of the completed accommodations? I suspect that the ships will also have more room for people to relax without being in each others way.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1992 on: August 23, 2019, 19:00:02 »
Have they released any pictures of the completed accommodations? I suspect that the ships will also have more room for people to relax without being in each others way.

So far no as Irving been pretty tight on the pictures and even though I've been there for tours twice no photos allowed. Once shes in the dockyard I'll be taking lots.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1993 on: August 23, 2019, 19:00:24 »
Will the AOPS have Air Dets attached?  I know it’s a silly question, but since these aren’t combat vessels, I didn’t know if they planned on embarking a det or not. 

Obviously having a some sort asset either a helo or RPA would be beneficial.   Do they have weapons storage for torpedos and sonobuoys?






Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1994 on: August 23, 2019, 19:16:19 »
Will the AOPS have Air Dets attached?  I know it’s a silly question, but since these aren’t combat vessels, I didn’t know if they planned on embarking a det or not. 

Obviously having a some sort asset either a helo or RPA would be beneficial.   Do they have weapons storage for torpedos and sonobuoys?

I would imagine the ability to embark 8 20ft ISO containers could in the realm of possibility be used as portable magazines and store those items. MV Asterix does that now.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1995 on: August 23, 2019, 19:27:09 »
To answer Dlphin_Hunter's question:

Based on the CONOPS I have last seen, the plan is that, whenever they are expected to travel through the ice pack, the AOPS will normally embark a Coast Guard helicopter crew, including Ice Pic.

Otherwise, they are capable of embarking a RCAF Helo det of Cormorant or Cyclone as need be, but it is to be only when specifically required - not as a rule as it would be for the frigates, for instance.

This said, storage and handling of sonobuoy is straightforward and easy. Torpedoes are another matter. it's not enough to have them in a 20 ft container, you also have to have proper handling route and equipment along the whole route to permit their use, including, along the way, a proper space where the weapons tech can work as required on the torp, in a safe environment and with proper safety gear and measures in place: a torpedoe fuel leak can really mess up your day!

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1996 on: August 23, 2019, 20:09:21 »
To answer Dlphin_Hunter's question:

Based on the CONOPS I have last seen, the plan is that, whenever they are expected to travel through the ice pack, the AOPS will normally embark a Coast Guard helicopter crew, including Ice Pic.

Otherwise, they are capable of embarking a RCAF Helo det of Cormorant or Cyclone as need be, but it is to be only when specifically required - not as a rule as it would be for the frigates, for instance.

This said, storage and handling of sonobuoy is straightforward and easy. Torpedoes are another matter. it's not enough to have them in a 20 ft container, you also have to have proper handling route and equipment along the whole route to permit their use, including, along the way, a proper space where the weapons tech can work as required on the torp, in a safe environment and with proper safety gear and measures in place: a torpedoe fuel leak can really mess up your day!

All can be achieved including ISO container weapon workshops. Works for the Danes on their Arctic Patrol Ships, it can work for us too. We need to start thinking outside the box. I can confirm there are all kinds of interesting 20ft ISO container payloads being looked at to give AOPS all sorts of interesting capabilities in the future.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1997 on: August 23, 2019, 21:01:11 »
Chief Engineer:

"All can be achieved including ISO container weapon workshops...We need to start thinking outside the box."

Perhaps you mean thinking "inside" the box, er, container  ;).

Regards,

Mark
Ottawa
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1998 on: August 23, 2019, 21:01:57 »
Chief Engineer:

"All can be achieved including ISO container weapon workshops...We need to start thinking outside the box."

Perhaps you mean thinking "inside" the box, er, container  ;).

Regards,

Mark
Ottawa

Good one:)
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1999 on: August 23, 2019, 21:03:20 »
Chief Engineer:

"All can be achieved including ISO container weapon workshops...We need to start thinking outside the box."

Perhaps you mean thinking "inside" the box, er, container  ;).

Regards,

Mark
Ottawa

Damye Mark!  Too fast!  ;D
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