Author Topic: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]  (Read 734807 times)

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Offline KevinB

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2005, 01:22:20 »
Really Mike - you sure...

 Please locate mine for the past year  ;D


I've seen them (not mine others) and keep wondering where mine have gone...

Of course I alway found it funny that the sum (PER) did not add up to its parts (PDR's).  Come to think of it I always found it odd that a Cpl in a 2i/c position getting superior PDR's coudl get a lower PER than a non leadership positioned Cpl working in Coy HQ...





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Offline 2023

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2005, 06:12:51 »
Sorry boys, messed this one up!
"Even if you control the physical, you do not control the man. If you control his mind.........then you have him."

Offline garb811

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2005, 08:21:50 »
The trouble I have is that I had to go and make my career intentions known. It was suggested to me that my bosses thought I was happy where I was and that the fact that I always worked hard and produced results where ever I was put showed that I didn't want to leave the floor if you will. i find this a cop out .I just believe I was, for want of a better word forgoten .

Directly from the CFPAS Help File:
Quote
Member's Responsibilities
To prepare for the discussion with the supervisor, members are asked to think of their strengths and weaknesses. The member also reviews Section 1 of the PDR Form in preparation for discussing the Critical Tasks and whether he/she has successfully met the Expected Results. In addition, the member completes Section 3 of the PDR Form by writing a list of accomplishments, which includes work-related and extracurricular activities the supervisor may or may not have observed. The member also completes Section 4, Member's Career Goals, by listing any career goals he/she has in terms of jobs, postings, courses, or other aspirations the member is striving for.

So for what it's worth at this point, you are now responsible for letting your supervisors know what your career goals are, short and long term, and this includes aspirations for promotion in my book, even if it isn't mentioned specifically.   In spite of this, I never fail to be amazed at the number of subordinates who will arrive at a PDR session with Section 3 and Section 4 either not filled out or done so poorly they shouldn't have bothered.   If they can't be bothered to put any effort into preparing for a critical element of their personal and professional development, it tells me a lot.

One place where you may be able to get a gold mine of information on "how to be promoted" is via the presentation the Career Managers give when they come for a visit.   I'm not sure how it is for other trades but our Career Manager always explains in detail how the points were allocated at the last merit board in Ottawa.   Although each board is different, in my Branch for the last "x" number of years there have always been the same items appearing, so if you pay attention you may find out what you need to do to get ahead of, or at least compete with, your peers.   If the Career Manager doesn't come to visit this year, go to their website, the presenation should be posted there for anyone to view.   Despite having this information, constant prompting during PDR sessions and general "harassment" from me to start implementing their action plan which generally includes the "must have" items from the CMs briefings, there are still those who are gobsmacked that Bloggins got promoted ahead of them even though they know Bloggins was taking night classes, coaching minor hockey and had gone on tour while they had been sitting at home watching Paris Hilton and eating Doritos because they had come up with yet another reason not to deploy, the only reason they send their kid to hockey is to get him out of their hair for a few hours a week and "they don't play that game because what should only count is what they do at work", never mind the skills they gain which are directly transferable to the CF by doing these "non-work" activities.

It's true that many still have difficulty in understanding the importance of the PDR cycle and implementing it, and like others have said, I have had maybe two PDRs since the system was introduced. The problem here is, as pbi pointed out, people writing PERs which are, when viewed critically, dishonest.   By the book, if you fail to follow the PDR cycle you should receive an Unacceptable score in "Evaluating and Developing Subordinates", which should pretty much rule out any thought of promotion for the next three years, yet we see those people being promoted the next year because their superiors overlook that "small" shortcoming as it's only the "PDR", he did get the PERs done on time...mostly".   After being burnt with a redress once, I now enforce the cycle on my subordinate leaders by setting a due date for them to complete the PDRs for their subordinates which, conviniently just before their PDR interview with me.   Fail to complete the cycle, guess what the first lines on "Areas for Development" and "Action Plan" are?   At that point I would have everything I would need to write an "honest" PER although thankfully it hasn't come to that...yet.

Finally, the best advice I ever received from my first Shift IC was "You're your own Career Manager, if you don't make things happen for yourself, no-one else will." and this has served me well throughout my career.

Edited to fix errors introduced by the Spell Checker...go figure.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 08:29:31 by garb811 »

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2005, 08:37:21 »
Really Mike - you sure...

 Please locate mine for the past year ;D


I've seen them (not mine others) and keep wondering where mine have gone...


Of course I for got to mention there are always people that get missed for one reason or another Kev, really no excuse though for missing soldiers especially in the Bn.  Usually it's indicitive of a lack of organization in the sub-unit I think...where in the Bn did you come from again???  ;D  Since I've started writing PDR/PERs, we've religiously ensured that everyone in the Pl/Coy got one, to the point where I have written up soldiers that I've had for only a week or two. 
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline KevinB

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2005, 10:34:24 »
Mike,  True...
 Thought I did not get a PER one year while in Mortars - none of the CPL's did...

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2005, 20:39:14 »
Ok everyone, I guess the best way to sum this up is easy, the CFPAS system can tend to be very ineffective when it comes to evaluations at my rank level, I have spent almost 5 years as a Pte, and it kinda ticks one off...the PDR process is useless to be perfectly honest, other than laying out what is "expected" of a person.  You live up to those goals, and nothing happens, well, let's see, I have a very clean record, and have been promised many things, but in accordance with the Canadian Forces Personnel Assaulting System, I am not meeting my "expected" range of performance.  Plain and simple, the program is still at the hands of a supervisor, and if you tick said supervisor off, well, you do the math...and as far as Career Goals go, I have been working my hands to the bone for the last five years, and am nowhere but a dusty circle that I managed to carve up.  I am not sure as to the opinion of others in my rank level, but I would assume that they are in the same boat.  And for any supervisors out there, please don't tell you ppl something that you have no plans of doing!

I dunno, there is my beef!

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2005, 20:53:17 »
Ok everyone, I guess the best way to sum this up is easy, the CFPAS system can tend to be very ineffective when it comes to evaluations at my rank level, I have spent almost 5 years as a Pte, and it kinda ticks one off...the PDR process is useless to be perfectly honest, other than laying out what is "expected" of a person.   You live up to those goals, and nothing happens, well, let's see, I have a very clean record, and have been promised many things, but in accordance with the Canadian Forces Personnel Assaulting System, I am not meeting my "expected" range of performance.   Plain and simple, the program is still at the hands of a supervisor, and if you tick said supervisor off, well, you do the math...and as far as Career Goals go, I have been working my hands to the bone for the last five years, and am nowhere but a dusty circle that I managed to carve up.   I am not sure as to the opinion of others in my rank level, but I would assume that they are in the same boat.   And for any supervisors out there, please don't tell you ppl something that you have no plans of doing!

I dunno, there is my beef!

I find it hard to understand why you are still a Pte after 5 years?  Most Reg F trades that I know of, the soldier/airman/sailer is automatically promoted to Cpl after 48 months.   Why am I asking this?

Well, as a Cpl you start getting a real PER vice an annual PDR.   I think the system we have, although not perfect, is pretty good.  As a Pte you are considered an apprentice and shouldn't expect to be given leadership tasks; however, as a Cpl you are becoming a journeyman and now the choice is yours - perform and demonstrate leadership = promotion or do the minimum = stay as a Cpl.

Pretty simple.

S6
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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2005, 21:03:41 »
Oh, I can make it easy to understand how I am a Pte after 5 years, it's called having a supervisor that is too busy looking out for their next promotion.  I have had many an occasion on PDR interviews in which I have stated my wishes to be promoted, and my wishes to take Career Courses that will lead to my promotion, and on top of that, I work in a Local Cadet Unit religiously, every Monday and Friday, I take part in what little leadership is put in my path and do everything in my power to assist in house with training, as well as having completed all of my OPME's and also attempting to finish my BBA through Distance Education.  It isn't that I haven't been trying, no one's been listening.  And for any RMS Clk's out there, you know what this means, I DON'T EVEN HAVE MY 5's YET!!!  I have asked time and time again, and the answer is always the same, "wait it out, its coming".  I have heard that for the past two and a half years, it's getting annoying.  Anyway, to top that off, the last boss I had let me know that she felt I had excellent potential, and that she would make sure I would be a MCpl by 9 years in, well, for starters, i'm not that gullable, but even at that, it would be an awful pinch on time, seeing as how I only have four frieking years left before then.

My boss doesn't use the CFPAS system properly, and I have done my part in and out of house to ensure that I get promoted, but it doesn't seem to be working, I have had many people ask me when I am getting promoted, and also telling me that I shouldn't be this angy and bitter at my rank level, and it's all too true, but what am I supposed to do, I am the lowest man on the totem pole, and not moving any faster.  Perhaps this is the time for release???

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2005, 21:19:25 »
PteG82,

I've been in the Reg F for 19 yrs and your story doesn't add up?  ???  After 48 months you are to be promoted automatically to Cpl.

Are you on a medical category?  If so, that could prevent your promotion to Cpl, but even then there is ways around that through the Career Manager.

Hmmmm.  Trying to help you out....

S6
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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2005, 21:29:20 »
Sapper6,

I know the story sound real nice and fun, but that is the farthest thing from the truth, despite your 19 years, my five as an RMS Clk have taught me one important lesson, this so called "automatic" promotion, isn't automatic, it has to be started by your supervisor, and recorded on a CF743A, and forwarded through the chain of command for approval, trust me, it is NOT automatic!

I am not on a medical category, and I have recently (Nov 04) passed my CF Expres, this is not a medical thing, or a fitness issue, it is a fight that I have been fighting for the last well, almost five years, (Enrolled May 1st 00), trust me I wish I could say it was medical, but it isn't so.  Either way, I do believe the tree is finally starting to shake at work, but that isn't the point, it's the principle of it all, why did I have to wait this long before something happened, and why do I not have my QL5's yet, these are the questions I have brought to my supervisors to get no satisfactory answer.

My father has 37 years experience in the military, and he had no problem at all moving up the ranks, he's obviously retired now, but still, he has helped me to better understand my situation, a rather disturbing one at that, and many people have had the time to look at the situation, but as soon as they found out who the supervisor was, they all screwed off in the opposite direction.  I am not about to sit around and get walked on for the rest of my career.

Either way, it won't help me to rant on here, I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth into the forum about CFPAS, I don't find it helpful at all at this point in my career, hopefully that opinion improves.

As far as my CM goes, if I was to be brazen enough to contact my CM, i'd be hung and shot, no questions asked, ppl don't ask questions in my Chain of Command, although this APS may change that.

Thanks

PteG

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2005, 21:40:32 »
PteG,

Well, if you are truthful, then you have been served an injustice.  As an Army officer, I couldn't imagine not having one of my soldier's CF743As staffed up when they were due.

If you immediate supervisor is the problem then my only suggestion is to ask for an appointment with the Pl Comd.  He/she should know who you are anyway so this shouldn't be a stretch.  Failing that, I would recommend you speak to a Snr Cpl who you trust and could advocate your situation to someone that could make a difference.

In the end, you will get your Cpl rank.  Make sure that you are backdated for pay to your 48 month point.

As for your QL 5s, I know that there was a backlog in Borden for the RMS trade... we had the same problem out West with our clerks. 

Bottom line - hang in there and try not and get bitter.  Easy for me to say I know, but I don't think the CF is populated with guys like your supervisor.  There are really a good bunch of people out there.

Sapper 6

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Offline pbi

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2005, 05:55:48 »
I echo Sapper6's advise. If your immediate IC is as bad as you say, then request an audience with the next in the chain. Do you have a Chief Clerk, or a CSM equivalent you could talk to? If, as you say, in your unit people don't ask questions of the chain of command, it sounds to me like it's time that they did.

On the other hand, there may be a good reason why you have not been promoted, one that you have not been counselled on, and which you may not like when it is explained to you. It appears that the CFPAS system is not being applied wherever it is you are working, so I imagine you do not have a clear, factual idea of what the problem is. Be that as it may, you are owed at least a clear explanation of why, and the opportunity to question it.

Sapper6: IMHO (and based on a bit of experience), it is dangerous to say things like:

Quote
In the end, you will get your Cpl rank.

We do not know this, because we do not know for sure what the problem is. IMHO this falls under the heading of the kind of promises that Pte G82 was complaining about in the first place.

The fact is that in the Army we do not promote ourselves. We do not "ask" for promotion. We work for other people, and either we meet their expectations or we don't go very far. We have a right to expect fair and open treatment, and to have the system explained to us, but that is all. Cpl and Capt are not automatic and both can be withheld by the CO for cause.

Cheers

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Offline CdnArtyWife

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2005, 09:15:22 »
Quote
Quote from: mseoptrucker on January 21, 2005, 18:14:02
The trouble I have is that I had to go and make my career intentions known. It was suggested to me that my bosses thought I was happy where I was and that the fact that I always worked hard and produced results where ever I was put showed that I didn't want to leave the floor if you will. i find this a cop out .I just believe I was, for want of a better word forgoten .

Directly from the CFPAS Help File:
Quote
Member's Responsibilities
To prepare for the discussion with the supervisor, members are asked to think of their strengths and weaknesses. The member also reviews Section 1 of the PDR Form in preparation for discussing the Critical Tasks and whether he/she has successfully met the Expected Results. In addition, the member completes Section 3 of the PDR Form by writing a list of accomplishments, which includes work-related and extracurricular activities the supervisor may or may not have observed. The member also completes Section 4, Member's Career Goals, by listing any career goals he/she has in terms of jobs, postings, courses, or other aspirations the member is striving for.

So for what it's worth at this point, you are now responsible for letting your supervisors know what your career goals are, short and long term, and this includes aspirations for promotion in my book, even if it isn't mentioned specifically.   In spite of this, I never fail to be amazed at the number of subordinates who will arrive at a PDR session with Section 3 and Section 4 either not filled out or done so poorly they shouldn't have bothered.   If they can't be bothered to put any effort into preparing for a critical element of their personal and professional development, it tells me a lot.

good post garb811, well said.

Mseo-> There is something to be said about taking the "initiative" and making your superiors aware of your career intents. This initiative is usually one of many qualities that they look for in a leader, and from my understanding the rank of Sgt is usually considered a junior leadership position. Therefore there are certain responsibilities that go hand in hand with promotion, not just the pay incentives.

It is good to know that you are finally on track, good luck to you.....
"For do not forget the soldiers that make up this military are solidly built characters hand hewn from everyday Canadian values: grace, integrity, physical and moral courage, and loyalty." ~ Maj Scott Lang

Offline Sapper6

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2005, 13:16:45 »

Sapper6: IMHO (and based on a bit of experience), it is dangerous to say things like:

We do not know this, because we do not know for sure what the problem is. IMHO this falls under the heading of the kind of promises that Pte G82 was complaining about in the first place.

The fact is that in the Army we do not promote ourselves. We do not "ask" for promotion. We work for other people, and either we meet their expectations or we don't go very far. We have a right to expect fair and open treatment, and to have the system explained to us, but that is all. Cpl and Capt are not automatic and both can be withheld by the CO for cause.

PBI,

         Yes, you are correct.   Although I didn't come right out and ask, perhaps there is a discipline or performance issue that he is not been forthcoming with.   If so, the chain of command (ie. CO) does not need to support the promotion to Cpl.   However, that being said it has been my experience that 'in today's Army' we don't hold back Cpl promotion unless there is something very serious going on.   In fact, poor performance noted on PDRs or told verbally to a Pte have not been supported by Formation HQs for holding back Cpl promotion....in my humble experience.   I personally don't agree with this 'unwritten policy' but precedent has been set unfortunately.

S6
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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2005, 14:14:23 »
I have just gone through the carreer mangers brief and he mentioned that do to the shortage at Mcpl and Sgt level the powers that be are trying there best to push through the necessary steps to allow exceptional (this is relative in application) pte's to take the leadership course and advance to Mcpl without spending anytime in the Cpl rank.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with this?
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2005, 14:21:42 »
I have just gone through the carreer mangers brief and he mentioned that do to the shortage at Mcpl and Sgt level the powers that be are trying there best to push through the necessary steps to allow exceptional (this is relative in application) pte's to take the leadership course and advance to Mcpl without spending anytime in the Cpl rank.

Is it just me or does anyone else see a problem with this?

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Offline sigpig

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2005, 14:23:14 »
Isn't this the old DAPS - Delegated Advanced Promotion Scheme (System?) in the combat arms?   I can remember one Christmas parade with the strats where about 8 guys got promoted to MCpl and about 6 or 7 had been Ptes. A very smart and sharp Pte in my tp got daps'd to MCpl and was made my gunner and shortly afterward a crew commander. As I said, he was a great soldier, but had very little experience when he became a crew commander.

At one time it almost seemed like something was wrong with you if you were a Cpl in the combat arms - you hadn't been daps'd from Pte to MCpl.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2005, 14:28:38 »
Problems?

1. EGOs off the chart.

2. No Experience in the many aspects involving "Man Management".

3. No Experience in job, and methods of getting job done successfully.   Lack of knowlegde of getting a job done via accepted 'shortcuts'.

4. No Field Experience in Leadership roles.

5. Not enough time to develop "Tactical sense".

6. Problems with Power.

7. Lack of maturity (should be ruled out in selection process).

8.......

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2005, 14:47:32 »
Exactly what I was thinking GW.
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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2005, 14:53:36 »
I thought a lot of the Army Reserve units did this already? I had a friend who joined the arty reserves in 11th grade, and three years later he was a Master Bombadier. Smart guy, but again, no time in the job, and in the militia it's got to be even worse than reg force, with most parading being done on weekends and in the summer.

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2005, 15:01:03 »
The (unofficial) rationale behind the daps I referred to above was to encourage retention in 'less than desireable' trades, ie the combat arms. There was a hemorrhaging of people to other trades or out altogether and it was thought this would encourage good people to stay.

Is this proposal along the same lines? You've just mentioned inf but is this being looked at for the other cbt arms trades? Once the individual progress to senior sgt and above things would tend to even out but there would definitely be problems with experience and maturity in the MCpl and possibly junior sgt ranks.

A guy could be a pte in a veh crew or section one day and in charge of it the next.

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2005, 15:07:10 »
I can't speak for the other trades as it was specifically addressed (ie across the board) I can only speak on behalf of what was addressed to the Infantry and personal shortages.
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Offline X Royal

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2005, 19:11:12 »
Its nothing new its been happening at   least since the the late   70's. Lets not forget that Cpl. is not a leadership rank but in the Reg. force denotes 4 years service generally. In the Reserves 2years?   ::) I've been out for about 9 years so things may have changed. In the late 70's & 80's only the exceptional Pte's(generally) were offered the chance to take the ISCC. They still had to pass the course before having a chance for promotion.

Offline pbi

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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2005, 20:52:40 »
X-Royal is correct. I remember DAPS very well. It came on the scene at a time in the late 1970's/early 1980s when the Regular Army was "aging out" just as it is now, and was losing numbers of soldiers to release and OT (then called remuster). It had mixed results. I had some young MCpls under my command who were absolutely sharp soldiers and natural leaders: under the guidance of the CSM and Pl WOs they did very well and went on to be keen young Sgts and WOs, learning as they went. These guys deserved to get going early, and did the unit and the Army proud. On the other hand we got some who had little idea of what they were doing, and could not handle the rank properly. They got into fights in the Ranks, and otherwise failed to behave as leaders. These, IMHO, were in the minority.

An additional result, as has been suggested, was that anybody in the Reg Inf who was a Cpl came to be looked upon as a "dead-ender" because so many MCpls were getting there via DAPS and leaving the older, slower guys behind. Soon, in the PPCLI anyway, we began to run out of these guys. I remember when 3 RCR was briefly part of 1 CMBG: they sent a batch of guys on the ISCC, and the Battle School staff remarked on the high proportion of old Cpls being sent on the course by the RCR. We generally were sending Ptes or young Cpls: we just didn't have a significant population of older Cpls.

As I look back on DAPS, I think that in general the results were good: leading a rifle section or being 2IC is a young, fit keen  guy's game, not a place for most 35 or 40 year olds. The problem was quality control: sometimes it wasn't there. However, IMHO we are facing the same conditions now that we faced then: we are getting to be a very old Army (I notice this very starkly in comparison with US who appear to be 5-10 years younger at equivalent ranks) and we are desperately short of NCOs (both Res and Reg).

Cheers
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Re: CFPAS – All things PER, PDR, software ect… [MERGED]
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2005, 20:59:45 »
Well I hope (but doubt) that the quality control you speak of is there.  I can see it now, a bunch of 18 yr old Jacks with a chip on their shoulder and won't listen to no one.  I guess thats why God invented senior Cpl's who don't a f__k.:)
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