Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 327961 times)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #650 on: July 28, 2020, 23:13:24 »
Not trying to sound rude or aggressive, just asking for a very blunt 'No BS' assessment from someone in the know.  (Obviously without violating anything OPSEC related)

Some sources indicate that with the extensive maintenance and upgrades the boats have received, they are an extremely good boat for their type, etc.

Other sources, some of which were on this forum, indicate that they were among some of the easiest boats they've ever found/tracked.


^^ I realize there are a variety of factors that can go into the above such as crew training, timing, sheer luck, etc etc.



Question is - are these boats as quiet & capable as the Navy says?  Or, would they find themselves lacking if we end up in a shooting war?

I have worked against Victoria’s twice, in a Sea King. In both cases, they easily evaded me. For comparison, I have worked 688Is where they threw everything at me but the kitchen sink and I maintained contact. In other words- in ASW, sometimes it is your day and sometimes it is not.

Offline Ping Monkey

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #651 on: July 28, 2020, 23:18:54 »
Not trying to sound rude or aggressive, just asking for a very blunt 'No BS' assessment from someone in the know.  (Obviously without violating anything OPSEC related)

Some sources indicate that with the extensive maintenance and upgrades the boats have received, they are an extremely good boat for their type, etc.

Other sources, some of which were on this forum, indicate that they were among some of the easiest boats they've ever found/tracked.


^^ I realize there are a variety of factors that can go into the above such as crew training, timing, sheer luck, etc etc.


Question is - are these boats as quiet & capable as the Navy says?  Or, would they find themselves lacking if we end up in a shooting war?
I'll echo DH's comments.

The answer largely depends on who the adversary is.  Platform/Systems/Tactics/Acoustic Intel/Crew readiness, will all be factors in the recognition differential of the operator's ability to detect any submarine.
 
My opinion:  Yes Victoria class boats are still very capable, modern submarines that remain a powerful asset in the RCN fleet.  A small Diesel-Electric submarine operating on battery power is still one of the most difficult targets to detect/track in the ocean.  If it doesn't want to be found, it probably won't. 
 
Often working together with DH, I've also exercised with Victoria class boats using both legacy CP140 (1980s-era) and modern CP140M (2000s-era) systems.  Using our legacy system, and even with the benefit of having thorough acoustic intel, I had difficulty detecting it.  Even if it was detected, it would be a challenge to track for an extended period.
 
For a variety of reasons, things got a lot easier with the vastly more modern CP140M acoustic system.  The demonstrated RCAF ASW capabilities are getting a tremendous amount of (well deserved) global attention for their performance and acoustic data collects.   Knowing that, I don't think that RCAF experiences are common... yet.

I strongly believe that the Victoria class remains a good 'above average' SSK, and its most recent updates will ensure it remains relevant for the near future.  Altogether, if I was onboard an allied HVU, I'd be happy knowing a VIC was helping protect the area.  And if I was on an adversarial vessel, I'd have reservations about traversing through a region where a known Victoria class is on patrol.
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Online MilEME09

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #652 on: July 29, 2020, 00:21:23 »
While capable by what you are all saying, is it really a good idea long term, to extend the life to the late 2030s/early 2040s without discussing replacement? Given how long we take to procure equipment, subs will have to be off shore. Should we not be discussing replacement now so boats are in the water by the time the vics reach end of life?
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #653 on: July 29, 2020, 00:43:06 »
By planning ahead, and keeping it as simple as possible, we could in theory replace the submarine fleet with new boats when they retire, for a pretty reasonable price.

It doesn't have to be a hugely complicated or expensive process.  We don't need to start/stop/start/stop/start/stop/start/stop (I'm not exaggerating, i.e., fighter replacement) a competition, and we can narrow it down to a few classes that would suit our new needs.

Plug into an existing production line (or one that will be existing when the time comes) - and have the boats built with any Canadian modifications required, while being built.  Not sailed here and retrofitted after the fact.  (Weapon systems, computer systems.)

*Make it clear to anybody who raises the question - no, submarines can't be built domestically.  And it makes zero sense to build up the domestic submarine manufacturing capability for a mere 4 boats, possibly 6 if our currency is strong.  Domestic build is a non-starter, and not a conversation even worth having.  The Canadian public will forget all about the issue in a few days, when the media tell them to think about something else.*



We'd have new boats, for a reasonable cost, ready to go.  Keep it simple.   :2c:
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #654 on: July 29, 2020, 15:02:31 »
in ASW, sometimes it is your day and sometimes it is not.

My last CASEX with a Vic, we caught them in the SNORT at night (RISER), banked into the homing, gained EOIR contact 2 seconds later, and held contact with them at leisure til FINEX.

What would that have looked like if they'd been secured from that evolution and on battery?  Who knows...

When discussing survivability in a shooting war, etc...that might come down to a discussion of (1) tactics (2) tasks and (3) command decisions.  1 is easy to discuss, 2 and 3 feed into the 'variables' that are quite hard to predict IMO. 

The CP-140 ASO performs one job, hunting boats, that’s it, that’s all they do. They are highly skilled in the fine art of hunting subs, probably more so than the surface sonar types in the RCN.

100%. 

I've wondered more than once what would the results look like if our collective RCAF and RCN assets worked together more often and more closely...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 15:28:44 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline Weinie

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #655 on: July 29, 2020, 16:40:46 »

I’ll also throw this tidbit in. The CP-140 ASO performs one job, hunting boats, that’s it, that’s all they do. They are highly skilled in the fine art of hunting subs, probably more so than the surface sonar types in the RCN.


What about their role in Iraq?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #656 on: July 29, 2020, 17:16:38 »
In Iraq and Syria, they did all of the "AES Op" jobs except RADAR/IFF and ESM and maybe Crew Lead.  I had ASOs on all of the crews (3) I deployed to HappyLand with. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 17:41:47 by Eye In The Sky »

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #657 on: July 29, 2020, 17:39:46 »
In Iraq and Syria, they did all of the "AES Op" jobs except RADAR/IFF and ESM.  I had ASOs on all of the crews (3) I deployed to HappyLand with.

Wish they would outfit them for a anti shipping role say for the Arctic.
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #658 on: July 29, 2020, 17:42:28 »
Wish they would outfit them for a anti shipping role say for the Arctic.

ASOs or Auroras?   ;D
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #659 on: July 29, 2020, 17:45:45 »
Wish they would outfit them for a anti shipping role say for the Arctic.

Or, like the way the USN, RAAF, RNZAF, ROKN, JMSDF... used them. 

We're one of the few militaries with P-3 variants that don't have armament on the wings.
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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #660 on: July 29, 2020, 17:48:41 »
Or, like the way the USN, RAAF, RNZAF, ROKN, JMSDF... used them. 

We're one of the few militaries with P-3 variants that don't have armament on the wings.

Yes I heard that planes had the hardpoints for them but were removed and due to wing warping they cannot be installed easily, pity if that's true.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #661 on: July 29, 2020, 18:03:16 »
Yes I heard that planes had the hardpoints for them but were removed and due to wing warping they cannot be installed easily, pity if that's true.

I can't speak for the entire fleet, but I've seen the hardpoints installed on Canadian 140s in the recent (last 5 years) past.  Not sure if the warping issue was dealt with during ASLEP.

But...we're deviating off track a wee bit I think.

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #662 on: July 29, 2020, 18:10:37 »
I can't speak for the entire fleet, but I've seen the hardpoints installed on Canadian 140s in the recent (last 5 years) past.  Not sure if the warping issue was dealt with during ASLEP.

But...we're deviating off track a wee bit I think.

Agreed
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Underway

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #663 on: July 31, 2020, 09:48:08 »
Not taking away from the CP-140's.  Amazing and exciting upgrades.  I'm a huge fan of the new capabilities.  However, it is important to differentiate (for the non navy/airforce types) between catching a sub on EX vs in the wild so to speak.  When you know there is a sub, the area to look for it is limited, and in some cases, the mission profile of the sub (you can extrapolate based on the exercise) the submarine loses its strategic surprise/initiative, which is probably its most important trait.  This is generally what happens in an exercise.

If you don't know a sub is there, what it is doing and haven't had a sniff it's very hard.  That's why submarines are strategic weapons.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #664 on: July 31, 2020, 20:47:29 »
Not taking away from the CP-140's.  Amazing and exciting upgrades.  I'm a huge fan of the new capabilities.  However, it is important to differentiate (for the non navy/airforce types) between catching a sub on EX vs in the wild so to speak.  When you know there is a sub, the area to look for it is limited, and in some cases, the mission profile of the sub (you can extrapolate based on the exercise) the submarine loses its strategic surprise/initiative, which is probably its most important trait.  This is generally what happens in an exercise.

If you don't know a sub is there, what it is doing and haven't had a sniff it's very hard.  That's why submarines are strategic weapons.

You aren’t wrong.

Although the CP-140 has, on more than one occasion (in a non-exercise environment), gotten things back on track. As you know, we usually have a good idea where the bad guys are, quite often that’s enough to generate contact. NATO does a decent job of keeping Ivan honest.

The assets we use to keep tabs submarines is astounding, they are the ultimate war machine. Which is why the Victoria is very relevant.
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