Author Topic: Substantive Rank [MERGED]  (Read 7918 times)

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Offline Spidron

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Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« on: September 11, 2006, 12:59:38 »
Hi folks:

I recently saw a PER that gave a rank followed by the word 'substantive'. I suspect this means permanent, but I am not sure.

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 13:04:03 »
Only if it follows Corporal or Captain.  ;D ;D ;)


Honestly.. joking aside, no idea.
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Offline beach_bum

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 13:08:29 »
It means the person isn't "acting lacking" or "while so employed".
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2006, 13:12:56 »
If you are promoted without being qualified for the rank (eg appointed to MCpl without a leadership course) you are granted an acting rank. Upon completion of the qualification required for the rank, you are then substantive (qualified) in that rank.

I couldn't find a dictionary definition.
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Offline Standards

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2006, 15:50:12 »
Substantive - adj. dealing with real or important matters.
- from the Oxford Dictionary of Current English

In accordance with my old PER writing manual, "the rank used will be the substantive rank held by the member at the end of the reporting period".

If someone actually wrote "substantive" in the PER, I assume it was because the individual had previously been acting or WSE and the drafter wanted to ensure the chnage in status was noted.

Offline ryanhd20

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2017, 21:35:49 »
Hello,

I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means. Is it fully qualified to hold that rank? Also, are there any circumstances in which you can lose your substantive rank level?

I did come across this QR&O:
3.03 - SUBSTANTIVE RANK
(1) The substantive rank of an officer is the officer's confirmed rank.
(2) The substantive rank of a non-commissioned member is that rank below which the member cannot be reduced otherwise than by:
a sentence of a service tribunal; or
reversion for inefficiency or misconduct. (See articles 11.10 - Reversion and Remustering for Inefficiency and 11.11 - Reversion upon Conviction by a Civil Authority).

The reason I am asking is because I was promoted to substantive MCpl in March/2015, but just recently they realized I did not have Army portion of PLQ. I am just wondering if that substantive can be taken away at all.

Thanks for any insight

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2017, 21:55:51 »
Hello,

I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means. Is it fully qualified to hold that rank? Also, are there any circumstances in which you can lose your substantive rank level?

I did come across this QR&O:
3.03 - SUBSTANTIVE RANK
(1) The substantive rank of an officer is the officer's confirmed rank.
(2) The substantive rank of a non-commissioned member is that rank below which the member cannot be reduced otherwise than by:
a sentence of a service tribunal; or
reversion for inefficiency or misconduct. (See articles 11.10 - Reversion and Remustering for Inefficiency and 11.11 - Reversion upon Conviction by a Civil Authority).

The reason I am asking is because I was promoted to substantive MCpl in March/2015, but just recently they realized I did not have Army portion of PLQ. I am just wondering if that substantive can be taken away at all.

Thanks for any insight

Master Corporal is technically an appointment and not a rank- this is why a Sgt will be demoted to Cpl, or a MCpl will be demoted to Pte. It's why 'MCpl' doesn't appear on the pay scales. My understanding is this is a legacy of back in the day when MCpl was initially created; making it an appointment instead of a rank made it easier to make it happen, but has had some odd ramifications.

Potentially they could bump you back down to Cpl. In practice I think it's much more likely they'll get you on a PLQ-Army ASAP.
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2017, 22:16:53 »
I am trying to find the technical version of what substantive rank level actually means.

What does ''Substantive" mean?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=50104.0
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2017, 22:17:26 »
This is a portion of my message:

2.  CURRENT RANK: CPL EFF DATE: 29 JUL 05 SEN DATE: 13 JUL 11 EPZ
DATE: 13 JUL 13
3.  PROMOTED TO SUBSTANTIVE MCPL EFF DATE: 2 MAR 15 SEN DATE: 1 JAN
15 EPZ DATE: 1 JAN 17

Offline ryanhd20

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2017, 22:22:43 »
What does ''Substantive" mean?
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=50104.0

Thanks. That is what I was thinking, but would really like to find something more concrete. I was under the impression that substantive meant fully qualified,, hence there would be no reason for me to complete that last portion of PLQ. But, I would love to find something regarding losing substantive.

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2017, 22:26:12 »
Thanks.

You are welcome. Good luck.
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 23:50:36 »

The reason I am asking is because I was promoted to substantive MCpl in March/2015, but just recently they realized I did not have Army portion of PLQ. I am just wondering if that substantive can be taken away at all.

Thanks for any insight

It is likely that you could/will revert to a MCpl (Acting Lacking) until you complete the Army portion of the PLQ.  There is no reason to take away the appointment unless you do not complete the requirement in the prescribed time.  It used to be 5 years from the commencement of any portion of the PLQ qualification courses.
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 14:10:36 »
Substantive is someone that fully meets all the prereqs for appointment/promotion.  In your case they made an error on the message and should have appointed you acting. The action taken should be to issue an amendment changing it.  I had the opposite case in that the initial read acting when it should have read substantive and the CM amended it via an email so maybe yours will do the same.
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 14:36:58 »
Substantive is someone that fully meets all the prereqs for appointment/promotion.  In your case they made an error on the message and should have appointed you acting. The action taken should be to issue an amendment changing it.  I had the opposite case in that the initial read acting when it should have read substantive and the CM amended it via an email so maybe yours will do the same.

Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?

The reason I ask is that, we have a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.

So, perhaps there was no error? Yes he missed the desired "Army" portion, but as far as the CAF is concerned (not the Army, but the CAF), he's met all the requirements for promotion appointment to MS IAW CFAO 49-4?

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Offline ryanhd20

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 14:44:20 »
Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?

The reason I ask is that, we have a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.

So, perhaps there was no error? Yes he missed the desired "Army" portion, but as far as the CAF is concerned (not the Army, but the CAF), he's met all the requirements for promotion appointment to MS IAW CFAO 49-4?

Cheers

So I did my PLQ in 2010 when I was in the navy. I was promoted to MCpl substantive in 2015. Also there is something about substantive in QR&O's:

3.03 - SUBSTANTIVE RANK
(1) The substantive rank of an officer is the officer's confirmed rank.
(2) The substantive rank of a non-commissioned member is that rank below which the member cannot be reduced otherwise than by:
a sentence of a service tribunal; or
reversion for inefficiency or misconduct. (See articles 11.10 - Reversion and Remustering for Inefficiency and 11.11 - Reversion upon Conviction by a Civil Authority).

This may have been a clerical error, but I am not sure if they can just take it away, especially after 2 years, in which time I have received 3 PER's as a MCpl none of which indicate any type of performance issue relating to performing the job at the rank I hold.

I also have some documentation from CDA which may be working in my favour. There are also 3 WO who are privy to the situation, all of which who believe I have a strong case for a grievance.

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2017, 15:35:37 »
Wait, hold on. Is the requirement for promotion appointment to MCpl PLQ, or PLQ + PLQ Army portion?

The reason I ask is that, we have a "Navy" portion of PLQ as well, but you aren't actually required to do it. We are desperate to get our members on PLQ as quickly as possible, and as a result, we have some of our members conducting AIR FORCE PLQ in Borden, including doing the introductory "Air Force" portion of PLQ, even though it has absolutely no value to our naval members. As far as our system is concerned, once they've achieved the "core" PLQ, they are eligble for appointment to MS, even though they haven't completed PLQ"Navy". And, they are promoted Substantive, not Acting-Lacking.

So, perhaps there was no error? Yes he missed the desired "Army" portion, but as far as the CAF is concerned (not the Army, but the CAF), he's met all the requirements for promotion appointment to MS IAW CFAO 49-4?

Cheers

The introductory *air force* portion of PLQ at the RCAF Academy is actually a qual; PAEQ, Primary Air Environmental Qualification.  Like the Army has BMQ-L and the Navy has NETP etc, we have Basic AEQ (DP1), Primary AEQ (DP2) and as a Sgt there is Intermediate AEQ (formerly known as the Sgts Seminar).

I thought the RCAF Academy PLQ was the new (again) CF PLQ;  same QS and TP across the board with the army bolt-on stuff for those who work in the C Army. 
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 08:20:10 »
The CAF considers you a substantive MCpl on completion of PLQ Common (You did this in the RCN). The Army will require you to complete AJLC to be able to move on in your career to Sgt. It's all in a CANFORGEN from last year outlining the changes.

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2017, 09:15:27 »
One of these ones?

CANFORGEN 051/16 CMP 030/16 301823Z MAR 16
IMPLEMENTATION OF CANADIAN ARMED FORCES PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF GUIDANCE TO THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES DATED 7 JUNE 2013
B. CFAO 49-4 CAREER POLICY NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS - REGULAR FORCE
C. CF MIL PERS INSTR 01/16 NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT LEADERSHIP PROGRAMMES ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES

1.   THIS CANFORGEN IS THE IMPLEMENTATION ORDER FOR THE DELIVERY OF A COMMON CAF PLQ EFFECTIVE 2 MAY 2016. THE HARMONIZED PLQ IS AN IMPORTANT STEP TOWARDS IMPROVEMENTS IN LEADING THE PROFESSION OF ARMS AS DIRECTED AT REF A SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE DIRECTION TO QUOTE IN THIS TIME OF FISCAL CONSTRAINTS, HOWEVER, WE MUST ALSO ASK OURSELVES HOW TO DELIVER THE REQUISITE DEVELOPMENTAL EFFORTS MORE EFFICIENTLY, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE CONSIDER NEW APPROACHES TO TRAINING, LEARNING AND EDUCATION END QUOTE

2.   THE AIM OF THE HARMONIZED PLQ (HEREFORTH CALLED PLQ) IS TO AMALGAMATE THE CAF PLQ AND THE PLQ-ARMY INTO A COMMON PLQ THAT SERVES ALL CAF NCM S. WHILE RELATED THE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMAND SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT PART OF THIS COMMON PROGRAM AND WILL BE ADDRESSED IN INDIVIDUAL SERVICE SPECIFIC TRAINING

3.   THE PLQ TRAINING PLAN (TP) WRITING BOARD WAS CONVENED JANUARY 2015 WITH REPRESENTATION FROM THE THREE ENVIRONMENTAL COMMANDS AND MILITARY PERSONNEL GENERATION (MPG). THE TP HAS BEEN REVIEWED AND IS NOW APPROVED. THE PLQ IS STRUCTURED AS FOLLOWS:
A.   MODULE 1 (CRSE ID 120814) CONSISTS OF NINE TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED VIA DL WHICH MUST BE COMPLETED WITHIN NINE WEEKS
B.   MODULE 2 (CRSE ID 120815) CONSISTS OF 10 TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT AUTHORIZED TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS (TE) FOR REG F AND IN RESIDENCE AT UNIT, CBG SCHOOL OR AUTHORIZED TE FOR PRES. PRES UNIT/CBG SCHOOL CAN ONLY CONDUCT THE TRAINING IF ALL NECESSARY RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE, OTHERWISE, MOD 2 MUST OCCUR AT AN AUTHORIZED TE AS NOTED IN PARA 6E
C.   MODULE 3 (CRSE ID 120816) CONSISTS OF 16 TRAINING DAYS DELIVERED IN RESIDENCE AT AUTHORIZED TE FOR BOTH REG F AND PRES
D.   AS A NORM, MODS 2 AND 3 WILL BE DELIVERED AS A SINGLE BLOCK FOR REG F BUT MAY BE DELIVERED AS SEPARATE BLOCKS FOR P RES OR FOR REG F IN SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
E.   MODULES MUST BE COMPLETED SEQUENTIALLY, MOD 1 - MOD 2 - MOD 3
F.   STUDENTS MUST ATTEND A MOD 3 SESSION WITHIN 12 MONTHS OF COMPLETING MOD 1 EXCEPT FOR P RES WHO TAKE THE TRAINING AS PER SUB- PARA 3.D. WHERE THE TIMELINE SHALL BE EXTENDED TO A MAXIMUM OF 18 MONTHS

4.   TASKS TO BE COMPLETED PRIOR TO THE IMPLEMENTATION ARE AS FOLLOWS:
A.   MPG HQ WILL REVISE THE RESIDENTIAL LEARNING (RL) PACKAGE WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL TES. ALL RETURNS WERE DUE TO MPG HQ BY END FEB 2016. MPG HQ WILL DISTRIBUTE THE MASTER LESSON PLANS (MLP) IN BOTH OFFICIAL LANGUAGES BY END MARCH 2016
B.   CFLRS WILL COMPLETE THE DL COURSEWARE TO INCLUDE MOUNTING ON THE DEFENCE LEARNING NETWORK (DLN) AND READY FOR USE BY 2 MAY 2016

5.   TRANSITION. IT IS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE ARE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PERS PARTIALLY TRAINED USING THE CURRENT PLQ DL. WHILE THERE IS NO GAP FOR CA MEMBERS, THERE IS A GAP FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE CAF PLQ. IN ORDER TO AVOID GAPS IN TRAINING AND REDUCE THE POTENTIAL DUPLICATION OF TRAINING, THE FOLLOWING TRANSITIONAL PARAMETERS WILL APPLY UPON IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PLQ:
A.   THE FINAL CAF PLQ DL SERIAL 0034 WILL END MAR 2016
B.   THE FINAL PLQ-A DL SERIAL WILL COMMENCE NO LATER THAN 31 MAR 2016
C.   THE CAF PLQ RL WILL CONTINUE FOR THE FINAL SIX SCHEDULED SERIALS STARTING BETWEEN APR-AUG 2016. ALL PERS QUALIFIED CAF PLQ DL MUST BE LOADED ON THESE SERIALS. PERS QUALIFIED CAF PLQ DL FAILING TO ATTEND THE CAF PLQ RL FINAL SERIALS WILL BE REQUIRED TO ATTEND BOTH THE PLQ DL AND RL
D.   CA TO ENSURE ALL CA MANAGED PERS QUALIFIED PLQ-A MOD 1 ARE LOADED ON PLQ RL SERIALS NO LATER THAN 31 MAY 2016

6.   TIMELINES. THE FOLLOWING TIMELINES WILL APPLY TO THE PLQ:
A.   EFFECTIVE 2 MAY 2016 PLQ DL SERIALS WILL COMMENCE. THEY WILL BE DELIVERED BY CFLRS, 2 CDN DIV TC, AND 5 CDN DIV TC C. EFFECTIVE 1 JUN 2016 THE CA COULD COMMENCE DELIVERY OF THE PLQ RL D. EFFECTIVE 1 OCT 2016 RCAF ACADEMY BORDEN, CFFS ESQUIMALT, CFLRS SAINT-JEAN AND CFNOS HALIFAX WILL DELIVER THE PLQ RL E. THE PLQ RL WILL BE OFFERED AT THE FOLLOWING APPROVED TE: RCAF ACADEMY BORDEN, CFFS ESQUIMALT, CFLRS SAINT-JEAN, CFNOS HALIFAX, 2 CDN DIV TC VALCARTIER, 3 CDN DIV TC WAINWRIGHT, 4 CDN DIV TC PETAWAWA, AND 5 CDN DIV TC GAGETOWN. LOADING TO THE NEAREST TRAINING ESTABLISHMENT SHALL BE RETAINED AS AN OPTION WHERE IT MEETS TRAINING NEEDS, AND MAKES SENSE TO DECREASE TD COSTS AND TRAVEL TIME AWAY FROM HOME UNIT AND FAMILY F. MPG NCM PD CELL WILL CONDUCT STANDARDS ASSISTANCE VISITS TO ENSURE SEAMLESS TRANSITION TO THE CAF PLQ. DETAILS WILL BE PROVIDED VIA SEPCOR

7.   THE LOADING PROCESS REMAINS UNCHANGED:
A.   PRIORITIES IAW REF B AND C TO BE USED
B.   MEMBERS CANNOT BE LOADED UNTIL THE PRE-REQUISITES ARE SATISFIED
C.   IAW CURRENT PRACTICE ALL EFFORTS TO OPTIMIZE THROUGHPUT AT EACH TE MUST BE MAINTAINED BY MAX LOADING EACH SERIAL
D.   TE S TO IDENTIFY SEATS AVAILABLE SHORT OF THE MAX LOAD TO MPG HQ BY COURSE START DATE MINUS 30 DAYS. MPG IN CONJUCTION WITH THE ENVIRONMENTS WILL SOURCE CANDIDATES TO FILL REMAINING SEATS THROUGH COORDINATION WITH MITE MATCHERS AND COMMISSIONERS

8.   TE HAS BEEN FUNDED BASED ON DESIGNATED SERIALS. THE CURRENT FUNDING MODEL REMAINS IN EFFECT. TE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR FUNDING ALL CANDIDATES ON THEIR SERIALS AND ADDITIONAL FUNDING PRESSURES ARE TO BE IDENTIFIED THROUGH NORMAL FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT CHANNELS

9.   THE HARMONIZED CAF PLQ INTRODUCES COMMON LEADERSHIP TRAINING THAT INCREASES EFFICIENCIES AND EFFECTIVENESS INTO THE NCM PD SYSTEM IN SUPPORT OF A RELEVANT AND RESILIENT PROFESSION OF ARMS

10.   QUESTIONS MAY BE DIRECTED TO THE MPG HQ NCM PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT CELL AT CSN XXX-XXXX


CANFORGEN 080/16 COMD CA 010/16 021800Z MAY 16
DP2 LAND ENVIRONMENT LEADERSHIP TRAINING
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 051/16 CMP 030/16 301823Z MAR 16
B. CANFORGEN 092/15 COMD CA 019/15 191700Z MAY 15
C. CANFORGEN 101/08 CMP 040/08 031334Z JUN 08

1.   AT REF A, MIL PERS GEN (MPG) ANNOUNCED DETAILS OF THE PRIMARY LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION (PLQ) INITIATIVE THAT HAS NOW ALIGNED DP2 NCM LEADERSHIP TRAINING ACROSS ALL CAF ENVIRONMENTS SO THAT ALL NCMS, REGARDLESS OF ENVIRONMENT, RECEIVE COMMON TRAINING BASED UPON A COMMON QUALIFICATION STANDARD (QS). STAFFS IN THE CA HAVE BEEN ENGAGED WITH MPG TO ENSURE CA REQUIREMENTS FOR JUNIOR LEADERS ARE SATISFIED AND TO SUPPORT THIS WORTHWHILE CAF INITIATIVE

2.   A NOTABLE CHANGE AT REF A IS THAT JUNIOR LEADERS ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE ACHIEVED THE DP2 PLQ QUALIFICATION UPON SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PLQ MOD THREE. THE EXISTING CA PLQ A/PLQ INF MODULES, MOD 4, ARE THEREFORE NO LONGER CONSIDERED PART OF PLQ DESPITE THEIR SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION REMAINING ESSENTIAL FOR ARMY JUNIOR LEADERS

3.   CCA HAS THEREFORE DIRECTED CA STAFFS TO RETAIN THE MATERIAL OF FORMER PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR AND PREPARE TWO NEW AND SEPARATE QS/TPS TO ALLOW DELIVERY OF THIS TRAINING. WHAT WAS FORMERLY PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR WILL HENCEFORTH BE KNOWN AS DP2 ARMY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (AJLC) AND DP2 INFANTRY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (IJLC)
 
4.   COMPLETION OF AJLC OR IJLC WILL REMAIN A MANDATORY PREREQUISITE FOR ALL CA PERSONNEL AS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH 4 OF REF B TO RECEIVE SUBSTANTIVE APPOINTMENT TO MCPL
 
5.   CA COURSE LOADING PROCEDURES FOR ALL CA RUN DP2 LEADERSHIP TRAINING WILL CONTINUE TO BE MANAGED BY CTC HQ AND WILL BE IAW FIELD FORCE (FF) AND CAREER MANAGER (CM) DEMAND AND MOSID MANNING REQUIREMENTS. DP2 LEADERSHIP COURSES TO INCLUDE PLQ, AJLC, AND IJLC WILL CONTINUE TO BE DELIVERED AT CA TRAINING ESTABLISHMENTS (TES). AJLC/IJLC WILL BE CONDUCTED IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF PLQ FOR ALL REGULAR FORCE NCMS AND THE MAJORITY OF PRES NCMS. PLQ REMAINS AVAILABLE IN A MODULARIZED FORMAT FOR PRES PERS IAW WITH THE TIMELINES IDENTIFIED IN REF A. SINCE AJLC/IJLC ARE NOW SEPARATE FROM PLQ, THERE IS NO TIMELINE IMPOSED FOR THEIR CONDUCT FOLLOWING SUCCESSFUL COMPLETION OF PLQ BUT, AS THE SKILLS ACQUIRED IN PLQ ARE NECESSARY FOR SUCCESS ON AJLC/IJLC, IT IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE INDIVIDUAL TO COMPLETE THIS TRG AS SOON AS IS PRACTICAL AFTER PLQ

6.   FOR ARMY PERSONNEL SUBJECT TO REF B, COURSE PREREQUISITES, STUDENT NOMINATION, AND LOADING PROCEDURES WILL NOT CHANGE. BMQ L REMAINS A PRE-REQUISITE FOR CA PERS TO ATTEND PLQ, AJLC AND IJLC TRG. STUDENT NOMINATIONS FOR INFMN, CRMN, AND ARTYMN WILL REMAIN AT THE DISCRETION AND SUGGESTION OF UNIT COS. STUDENT NOMINATION FOR THE REMAINING MOSIDS OUTLINED IN REF B, WILL REMAIN WITH THE RESPECTIVE CMS. ALL CA STUDENTS UNDERGOING TRAINING AT CA TES WILL BE COURSE LOADED BY CTCHQ STAFF

7.   ARMY DP2 LEADERSHIP TRAINING IS CRITICAL TO ENSURING CA JUNIOR LEADERS ARE AFFORDED ACCESS TO THE KNOWLEDGE, TRAINING, AND EXPERIENCE NECESSARY FOR BUILDING THE STRONG LEADERSHIP SKILLS AND CONFIDENCE THE CA DEMANDS OF ITS JUNIOR LEADERS
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 09:22:53 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2017, 11:04:29 »
The CAF considers you a substantive MCpl on completion of PLQ Common (You did this in the RCN). The Army will require you to complete AJLC to be able to move on in your career to Sgt. It's all in a CANFORGEN from last year outlining the changes.

Based on EITS' post, I think he might be crap out of luck:

Para 3 and 4:


Quote
CANFORGEN 080/16 COMD CA 010/16 021800Z MAY 16
DP2 LAND ENVIRONMENT LEADERSHIP TRAINING
UNCLASSIFIED

3.   CCA HAS THEREFORE DIRECTED CA STAFFS TO RETAIN THE MATERIAL OF FORMER PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR AND PREPARE TWO NEW AND SEPARATE QS/TPS TO ALLOW DELIVERY OF THIS TRAINING. WHAT WAS FORMERLY PLQ A/INF MOD FOUR WILL HENCEFORTH BE KNOWN AS DP2 ARMY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (AJLC) AND DP2 INFANTRY JUNIOR LEADER CRSE (IJLC)
 
4.   COMPLETION OF AJLC OR IJLC WILL REMAIN A MANDATORY PREREQUISITE FOR ALL CA PERSONNEL AS DETAILED IN PARAGRAPH 4 OF REF B TO RECEIVE SUBSTANTIVE APPOINTMENT TO MCPL

Based on this, he will be considered PLQ qualified, but that won't matter, because appointment to MCPL for CA pers now requires more than just PLQ.
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 11:05:52 »
That's the ones, thanks. By CAD standards you're substantive, but not by Army standards. When you're talking about rank reversion due to non-completion of AJLC, it depends on the reason. There's a recent CANFORGEN covering medical issues, basically removing the CAFs ability to take away your rank if you medically cannot complete the course.

Offline ryanhd20

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 12:18:24 »
Thank you for all the input. I guess I was hoping for answers with a bit more clarity. I am not disputing the CANFORGENS at all, and I understand the requirements, but based on some of the information and references I have found, and speaking with a handful of Warrants and some CPO outside the unit, I believe I have a solid case to make. The Warrants at my unit (supervisor included) all feel like a grievance is the best option.

I do not want to disclose all my information I have received, as I am not sure who exactly is on here. Thanks again for all the info

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 12:20:52 »
The timelines as I understand them:

- trained 2010
- promoted 2015
- CANFORGEN 2016

I should think his substantive would stand. He appears to have been promoted IAW the rules in place at the time, therefore any new rules should not adversely affect him. In order to rescind his promotion, someone would have to go through CMP. This is not an action that can be summarily enforced at the unit level. I would suggest that he has a viable grievance if his rank is taken away.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 12:25:50 by ModlrMike »
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 12:32:51 »
Timeline reference for discussion,

2009 - Promoted to MS
2010 - Completed CF PLQ
2011 - VOT to army trade
2013 - Completed SQ
2014 - Completed Winter Warfare Basic
2015 - Promoted to MCpl (MPRR says substantive)

Now almost 2 years after promotion, I am possibly having to go back to do the PLQ-A or L MOD4. Are there any references for my specific situation or am I just going to have to do it?
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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 12:48:04 »
The timelines as I understand them:

- trained 2010
- promoted 2015
- CANFORGEN 2016

I should think his substantive would stand. He appears to have been promoted IAW the rules in place at the time, therefore any new rules should not adversely affect him. In order to rescind his promotion, someone would have to go through CMP. This is not an action that can be summarily enforced at the unit level. I would suggest that he has a viable grievance if his rank is taken away.

Thanks, good point. Will also bring that to the table. On the other hand there is a CANFORGEN from 2008 I think stating all the trades required to take the PLQ-A. Although at that time I was still not Army

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Re: Substantive Rank [MERGED]
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2017, 13:37:16 »
Thanks, good point. Will also bring that to the table. On the other hand there is a CANFORGEN from 2008 I think stating all the trades required to take the PLQ-A. Although at that time I was still not Army

You may find that it is that "change to Army" that may do you in, and require you taking the PLQ-A now that you are "Army".
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