Author Topic: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged  (Read 152058 times)

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Offline winnipegoo7

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #350 on: April 07, 2018, 22:31:36 »
Furthermore, generally, only 1 person can drive (the renter) unless drivers are added to the contract, at a premium (which is not reimbursed)

if you tell the rental company that you are a government employee and ask nicely they will usually allow a second driver for free. (at least in my limited experience)

Wait, each person is supposed to have a GTC?  I was told only Crew Commanders in our sqn get those (as we get ready to rent half a dozen cars on our personal cards...)

I don't remember what kind of credit card I had, but I think the CO had to approve the application for it, so it might be the CO's choice as to who can have one. So maybe it would vary unit to unit??

One unit I was in ordered everyone to get a card (NCM's and Officers). Another unit would approve cards if we wanted them, but didn't force anyone.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #351 on: April 07, 2018, 23:02:37 »
Just to be clear, there are 2 types of cards and they have different limits.  Usually our Skippers have a different card then I do, probably the DTEC (guessing) - they use it for other stuff like fuel, it might pay for crew hotel rooms (I just know I only have to look after room charges usually).  I have an IDTC, which AFAIK anyone can get - that's the one I encourage new operators on Sqn to get before they start going away and 'maybe' getting advances on time, or if they launch on a weekend and end up landing away from homeplate, etc.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #352 on: April 09, 2018, 10:58:35 »
Having dealt with these issues a lot:

1) No, you cannot order someone to use their personal credit card.

2) Probably too late now, but the unit should have a DTEC (essentially a unit travel card that allows you to charge any unit travel expense, including rental cars).  This is a separate card from the unit acquisition card, but the governing principles are similar.  You could easily include the cost of additional drivers on this card.

One danger that a lot of folks don't realize is that should you use a personal credit card to rent a vehicle and end up in an accident, the insurance coverage that may be included with your personal credit card may not be valid if the credit card company realizes you were using it for DND business and NOT for personal use.  I used to rent cars on my personal credit card (to get the points), but I don't do that anymore.  I use my IDTC for that now (still rent hotel rooms on my personal card though).
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #353 on: April 09, 2018, 11:02:26 »
Thanks everyone.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #354 on: April 09, 2018, 11:14:31 »
Having dealt with these issues a lot:

1) No, you cannot order someone to use their personal credit card.

2) Probably too late now, but the unit should have a DTEC (essentially a unit travel card that allows you to charge any unit travel expense, including rental cars).  This is a separate card from the unit acquisition card, but the governing principles are similar.  You could easily include the cost of additional drivers on this card.

One danger that a lot of folks don't realize is that should you use a personal credit card to rent a vehicle and end up in an accident, the insurance coverage that may be included with your personal credit card may not be valid if the credit card company realizes you were using it for DND business and NOT for personal use.  I used to rent cars on my personal credit card (to get the points), but I don't do that anymore.  I use my IDTC for that now (still rent hotel rooms on my personal card though).


We take CDW and make it clear on the invoice it is for DND business.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #355 on: April 09, 2018, 11:20:37 »

We take CDW and make it clear on the invoice it is for DND business.

You can still use a personal credit card (individual choice), but I would recommend taking the CDW and claiming it.  It's a reimbursable expense.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #356 on: April 09, 2018, 12:45:29 »
You can still use a personal credit card (individual choice), but I would recommend taking the CDW and claiming it.  It's a reimbursable expense.

That is what we do, if the member does not have an IDTC.

Offline dangerboy

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #357 on: April 09, 2018, 12:53:04 »
You can still use a personal credit card (individual choice), but I would recommend taking the CDW and claiming it.  It's a reimbursable expense.

That is in fact the direction that CANFORGEN 204/11 http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2011/204-11_e.asp states you are to do:

Quote
COLLISION DAMAGE WAIVER (CDW).

4.1. EMPLOYEES ARE REQUIRED TO PURCHASE COLLISION DAMAGE WAIVER (CDW) COVERAGE FROM THE CAR RENTAL AGENCY UNLESS THEY USE THE GOVERNMENT SPONSORED DTC THAT COVERS THE CDW FOR VEHICLES LISTED IN THE STANDING OFFERS, A PERSONAL CREDIT CARD THAT PROVIDES CDW OR THE SUPPLIER DOES NOT ACCEPT THE DTC.

4.2. IF EMPLOYEES DO NOT USE THE DTC THEY MUST PURCHASE CDW FROM THE CAR RENTAL COMPANY AND THIS EXPENSE IS REIMBURSABLE. EMPLOYEES ARE REMINDED THAT CDW COVERAGE UNDER THE DTC APPLIES TO DAMAGE INCURRED IN THE COURSE OF BUSINESS TRAVEL ONLY.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #358 on: April 09, 2018, 14:07:52 »
EMPLOYEES ARE REMINDED THAT CDW COVERAGE UNDER THE DTC APPLIES TO DAMAGE INCURRED IN THE COURSE OF BUSINESS TRAVEL ONLY.

Important part there that many people do not think of.  Runs to Timmies may not be considered business travel.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #359 on: April 09, 2018, 15:50:28 »
EMPLOYEES ARE REMINDED THAT CDW COVERAGE UNDER THE DTC APPLIES TO DAMAGE INCURRED IN THE COURSE OF BUSINESS TRAVEL ONLY.

Important part there that many people do not think of.  Runs to Timmies may not be considered business travel.
Unless that was your breakfast as you were on TD.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #360 on: April 10, 2018, 13:22:17 »
Yep and I have been know to do just that, coffee and a muffin.  But that midnight run may not be worth the risk although it is Timmies.......hmmmmmm.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #361 on: April 10, 2018, 13:33:00 »
Easy: don't get a DTC.

Offline CountDC

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #362 on: April 10, 2018, 13:54:21 »
Or get the ITC but use personal credit card for vehicle rentals and take the CDW. The ITC is convenient to have for everything else and doesn't tie up your own card.  Keeps yours free for important stuff such as gifts for the family that is mad that you are gone again.  :rofl:
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #363 on: October 05, 2018, 11:18:28 »
How do they get away with it?

I was wondering about all the stories about travelling business class, re-reading the CFTDTIs, it say very clearly:

Quote
(2) (Members) Subject to paragraph 8.20(2) (Selection), a member — who is not a senior officer — is:
(a) in respect of a flight or series of flights in which the total travelling time — from takeoff at the first airport to landing at the last airport — is nine or more hours without an overnight stay during those hours, entitled both to travel in business class and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel;

There has actually been several times during my career where travel from the first airport to the last airport was well over 9 hrs, especially when you get stuck with shitty long layovers. However, not once was I or anyone of my travelling companions offered business class. It wasn't even discussed.

I guess the argument would be that there is no way we can afford that. A trip from Halifax to Victoria, for example, can easily be a $1000 flight per person in economy, and a $3000 flight per person in Business class.

The thing is, the reference doesn't say "the member is entitled to this, should the unit's TD budget be healthy enough to support such a lavish expenditure", it says very cleary that it is an entitlement, plan and simple.

So why is it that I hear so many stories of people asking for this, and getting laughed off like it's the most ridiculous thing you could have asked for?

If you grieved this, it'd be a clear cut win. The reference clearly says this + you did this but not get that = decision in your favour. However, when you file a grievance, you are required to include a line/para that clearly states what you want to receive in order to consider the grievance settled. In this case, what could be the recourse? The TD is done. They're not going to just give you a business class flight somewhere as compensation. You didn't lose any money on this, all you did was lose sleep and comfort by being forced to travel economy for 11 hrs. How do you receive restitution?

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #364 on: October 05, 2018, 11:40:53 »
Don't forget, it's all subject to 8.20(2):
Quote
2.(Selection) An approving authority selects a member’s mode - or combination of modes - of transportation on duty travel after consideration of all of the following:
a.the relative cost and efficiency of available modes of transportation during the duty travel;
b.the conditions of road transportation and all other modes of transportation — in the duty travel area;
c.forecasted weather conditions during the duty travel;
d.the preferred transportation for short, local trips is by bus, taxi, shuttle, and other local transportation services;
e.the CF’s operational needs;
f.an intermediate sedan is the standard rental vehicle across government;
g.the member’s safety and convenience;
h.the amount of baggage or supplies that the member is required to transport; and
i.any other factor that is immediately relevant to the duty travel requirement.

So 8.20(2)(a) could be used to override 8.30(2)(a).

And, of course, 8.31(3) also applies:

Quote
3.(Business Class Travel - Other Members) An approving authority determines whether a member - who is not a senior officer - travels in business class non-stop under paragraph 8.30(2)(a) or travels in economy class with one or more overnight stays under paragraph 8.30(2)(b).

This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #365 on: October 05, 2018, 11:59:00 »
Don't forget, it's all subject to 8.20(2):
So 8.20(2)(a) could be used to override 8.30(2)(a).

I feel like CO's discretion doesn't trump clearly listed entitlements...but I digress...

And, of course, 8.31(3) also applies:

Absolutely, but this brings us into the a similar situation. Having an overnight stay in the middles means 3 costs increases:
1. increase in meal and incidental costs;
2. increase in lodging cost (you now need to pay for a hotel); and
3. potential increase in flight cost. In order to get this layover, you might not be able to book multiple legs in 1 go, you might have to make several separate booking.

What this ends up meaning is that going business class or traveling with a stop overnight can both end up being far more expensive than the unit is willing to stomach, even when you are executing a core function.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
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Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Pusser

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #366 on: October 05, 2018, 12:32:44 »
How do they get away with it?

I was wondering about all the stories about travelling business class, re-reading the CFTDTIs, it say very clearly:

There has actually been several times during my career where travel from the first airport to the last airport was well over 9 hrs, especially when you get stuck with shitty long layovers. However, not once was I or anyone of my travelling companions offered business class. It wasn't even discussed.

I guess the argument would be that there is no way we can afford that. A trip from Halifax to Victoria, for example, can easily be a $1000 flight per person in economy, and a $3000 flight per person in Business class.

The thing is, the reference doesn't say "the member is entitled to this, should the unit's TD budget be healthy enough to support such a lavish expenditure", it says very cleary that it is an entitlement, plan and simple.

You missed a key point.  The reference you are quoting (Chapter 8 ) only applies to international travel.  Both Halifax and Victoria remain within Canada, so there is no international travel involved in your example.  The relevant reference in this case is CFTDI 7.30, which states:

7.30  Air travel

Subject to paragraph 7.20(2) (Selection), a member is entitled.

a.if the member is a senior officer, both to travel and to be reimbursed, in accordance with Treasury Board Special Travel Authorities, as amended from time to time; and

b.if the member is not a senior officer, both to travel in economy class and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel.


Furthermore, if you read the whole of Chapter 8, it becomes more clear (albeit perhaps in a roundabout way) that the rules on business class travel are more permissive than mandatory.  If a senior officer can be ordered to travel economy class (CFTDI 8.30, para 1.a.), then surely so can anyone else.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 12:57:04 by Pusser »
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #367 on: October 05, 2018, 12:54:27 »
I’ve heard of people challenging this and winning. 

They usually end up with an overnight stay though.

The order is clearly written and rarely followed.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #368 on: October 05, 2018, 13:23:15 »
The order is clearly written and rarely followed.

...but enough about beards...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #369 on: October 09, 2018, 09:53:00 »
You missed a key point.  The reference you are quoting (Chapter 8 ) only applies to international travel.  Both Halifax and Victoria remain within Canada, so there is no international travel involved in your example.  The relevant reference in this case is CFTDI 7.30, which states:

7.30  Air travel

Subject to paragraph 7.20(2) (Selection), a member is entitled.

a.if the member is a senior officer, both to travel and to be reimbursed, in accordance with Treasury Board Special Travel Authorities, as amended from time to time; and

b.if the member is not a senior officer, both to travel in economy class and to be reimbursed for actual and reasonable expenses for that travel.


Furthermore, if you read the whole of Chapter 8, it becomes more clear (albeit perhaps in a roundabout way) that the rules on business class travel are more permissive than mandatory.  If a senior officer can be ordered to travel economy class (CFTDI 8.30, para 1.a.), then surely so can anyone else.

Sorry, bad example.

I'm about to go on international TD (and this is not why I'm bringing this up; this discussion is purely academic).

Right now the travel is 9hrs 01mins. It's a 2 hr flight to a hub city, a 2 hr layover, and a 5hr01min flight to the final destination.

Technically, I could demand business class, or request that they book my flight over 2 days and give me a night in a hotel during my layover.

Personally, that seems ridiculous to. 9 hrs of travelling does not, to me, need an such extreme level of comfort. I mean, I work 12 hrs a day on ship, plus hours outside of that for admin I couldn't get done on watch, and emergency exercises, yet I can't be expected to travel (per diem) for 9 hrs without needing business class or an overnight break?

Regardless, I like taking advantage of documented benefits, so maybe next time I'll ask for business class (to which I will get laughed at, I'm sure).

Furthermore, if you read the whole of Chapter 8, it becomes more clear (albeit perhaps in a roundabout way) that the rules on business class travel are more permissive than mandatory.  If a senior officer can be ordered to travel economy class (CFTDI 8.30, para 1.a.), then surely so can anyone else.

I'm not sure if we're arguing the same point or not...yes you can be ordered to fly economy, but if you are, you are entitled to stay overnight in a hotel.

I do not believe you can use para 8.20 to order someone into economy on a 9+hr international flight. 8.20 does not give CO's carte blanche to do what they deem fit. For example, you CANNOT be ordered to take your PMV on duty travel, and CO's cant use para 8.20 (or 6.20, or 5.20) to change that fact. So, why would CO's be able to use 8.20 to overturn 8.30(2), but not other areas? "Because overnights stays or business class is too expensive" I don't think is valid reason.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #370 on: October 09, 2018, 09:55:24 »
I’ve heard of people challenging this and winning. 

They usually end up with an overnight stay though.

The order is clearly written and rarely followed.

The thing I'm still curious about is, should you challenge and fail, and then officially grieve, what the heck could your restitution be?
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #371 on: October 09, 2018, 10:45:03 »
The thing I'm still curious about is, should you challenge and fail, and then officially grieve, what the heck could your restitution be?

Here are some references (DWAN links).

http://intranet.mil.ca/en/locations/ncr/admin-services-travel-claims-faq.page     (see question 15)

http://winnipeg.mil.ca/cms/en/DComd/A8/A8FrequentlyAskedQuestions/Travel.aspx   (click on business class tab)

http://winnipeg.mil.ca/cms/Libraries/A8_Comptroller_-_FAQs/AF_Travel_and_Hospitality_Restrictions_-_31_July_2012.sflb.ashx
"use of business class for international air travel (excluding the US) must be specifically authorized by the approving authority and can only be approved if there is an explicit operational imperative or if the business case shows that a layover is not more economical"

Which is why most folks end up with an overnight stay as 99% of the time they are more economical.

Of note, nowhere in any of these links does it state that the member will be ordered to fly economy (on 9+hour international flights).  It mentions either business class or layover.


Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #372 on: October 09, 2018, 11:03:24 »
Here are some references (DWAN links).

http://intranet.mil.ca/en/locations/ncr/admin-services-travel-claims-faq.page     (see question 15)

http://winnipeg.mil.ca/cms/en/DComd/A8/A8FrequentlyAskedQuestions/Travel.aspx   (click on business class tab)

http://winnipeg.mil.ca/cms/Libraries/A8_Comptroller_-_FAQs/AF_Travel_and_Hospitality_Restrictions_-_31_July_2012.sflb.ashx
"use of business class for international air travel (excluding the US) must be specifically authorized by the approving authority and can only be approved if there is an explicit operational imperative or if the business case shows that a layover is not more economical"

Which is why most folks end up with an overnight stay as 99% of the time they are more economical.

Of note, nowhere in any of these links does it state that the member will be ordered to fly economy (on 9+hour international flights).  It mentions either business class or layover.

Damn, 1 CAD really has their **** in order. Ya'll take note.
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Lumber

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #373 on: December 06, 2018, 11:56:01 »
Just to be clear on the interpretation, I want to trow some scenarios out. The rule is, if your travel time from departure at 1st airport to arrival at last airport is more than 9 hrs, you are entitled to either business class, or a layover that is during those travel hours. (this highlighted bit is important), because:

Scenario 1: Flying from Halifax to San Diego. First leg is Halifax to Toronto (2.5 hr flight), followed by a 1.5 hr layover in Toronto, finished by a 5.5 hr flight to San Diego. Total time from airport to airport is 9.5 hours, and this is the shortest/fastest method possible. In this case, they would either have to fly the member business class the whole way, or give them a layover in Toronto for the night (à la per diem).

Scenario 2: Vancouver to Seoul. This is a direct flight that is 11 hrs long. Short of  trying to find a stop somewhere in Alaska or the Kamchatka Peninsula that would break up the flight into two portions that are each less than 9 hours, the only option would be to fly Business Class.

Scenario 3: Three flights (mixed entitlement). The first two are less than 9 hours, but add up to, say 15 hours, so they put you up into a hotel between flights 1 and flights 2. Flight 3 is over 9 hours, with no option of a stop in between, so for this portion of the flight, and this portion alone, you would get Business class.

Scenario 4: Long and short flight. You have a 10 hour flight followed by 3 hour flight. The military says they will put you in a hotel between these two flights, so they won't give you Business class. The crux here is wording of "is nine or more hours without an overnight stay during those hours". They're giving you an overnight stay during the whole trip, but not during the first 9 hours. So, should you be getting Business class for the first leg, or not?

"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower

Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Temporary Duty ( TD ) merged
« Reply #374 on: December 06, 2018, 13:00:48 »
Just to be clear on the interpretation, I want to trow some scenarios out. The rule is, if your travel time from departure at 1st airport to arrival at last airport is more than 9 hrs, you are entitled to either business class, or a layover that is during those travel hours. (this highlighted bit is important), because:

Scenario 1: Flying from Halifax to San Diego. First leg is Halifax to Toronto (2.5 hr flight), followed by a 1.5 hr layover in Toronto, finished by a 5.5 hr flight to San Diego. Total time from airport to airport is 9.5 hours, and this is the shortest/fastest method possible. In this case, they would either have to fly the member business class the whole way, or give them a layover in Toronto for the night (à la per diem).

Scenario 2: Vancouver to Seoul. This is a direct flight that is 11 hrs long. Short of  trying to find a stop somewhere in Alaska or the Kamchatka Peninsula that would break up the flight into two portions that are each less than 9 hours, the only option would be to fly Business Class.

Scenario 3: Three flights (mixed entitlement). The first two are less than 9 hours, but add up to, say 15 hours, so they put you up into a hotel between flights 1 and flights 2. Flight 3 is over 9 hours, with no option of a stop in between, so for this portion of the flight, and this portion alone, you would get Business class.

Scenario 4: Long and short flight. You have a 10 hour flight followed by 3 hour flight. The military says they will put you in a hotel between these two flights, so they won't give you Business class. The crux here is wording of "is nine or more hours without an overnight stay during those hours". They're giving you an overnight stay during the whole trip, but not during the first 9 hours. So, should you be getting Business class for the first leg, or not?

If I read the references right, Scenario 1 would be economy because the 9 hours only applies to international flights (excluding the continental US). All Travel in Canada and the continental US shall be economy.