Author Topic: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF  (Read 47102 times)

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Offline beenthere

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2006, 01:10:03 »
My understanding of the "new role" is that it's not really new. Sea Kings have been used to shuttle troops & cargo since forever. With all of the ASW gear removed and more seating it will no doubt serve quite well as a utility transport until something else comes along which could be a decade or two.
 With a crew of two pilots and one other crew member none of which need much special training as shuttling troops and cargo is about as basic as it gets the airlift unit could be composed of people with no background in present Sea King operations other than a core element of experienced pilots.
It would be gross overkill to use Navigators, AESOPs, or FEs to sling cargo or look after passengers and cargo. I'm sure that all of their years of training would be better used in doing something more pertinent than loadmaster duties.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline h3tacco

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2006, 16:00:02 »
Beenthere I pretty much agree with you. Sea Kings have done utility work since the begining but basically any helicopter can do utility in a non-threat in environment. You don't need a Nav, AESOp or FE specifically for the ultility role basically just an aft crewman. The current situation of using Nav and AESOps for the SCTF is basically because those are the people we have in Shearwater right now.

Offline Bobbyoreo

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2006, 16:07:15 »
Didnt Canada use them in Somila. I know ive seen pictures of them in Somila...I just dont know if they were used for troop life or what!!!
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Offline RECCE

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2006, 16:19:07 »
does anyone know how they are going to select the ground troops for this contingent force i had heard about it but didnt believe we would do it because of man power ...i wonder if its going to be like a usmc type thing?....

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2006, 16:40:54 »
Didnt Canada use them in Somila. I know ive seen pictures of them in Somila...I just dont know if they were used for troop life or what!!!

Yes, a friend of mine flew them off Provider.

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Offline Bobbyoreo

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2006, 16:53:23 »
As troop helos or something else?
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2006, 17:46:36 »
I know they did troop and supply lift into Mog, but not sure if they went all the way up to Belet Huen.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2006, 19:55:50 »
They moved a lot of stores from Provider to shore in Somalia and provided an essential service. I don't recall seeing them in Belet Huen but there were distinct phases of the operation where they were doing a lot of ops on shore and others where they weren't as involved.
I have no direct knowledge but would think that the initial deployment phase would be when they were doing most of the airlift to shore.
 When I was there the Belet Huen part of the operation had been well established and only required sustainment.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline ch124xx

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2006, 22:41:20 »
They moved a lot of stores from Provider to shore in Somalia and provided an essential service. I don't recall seeing them in Belet Huen but there were distinct phases of the operation where they were doing a lot of ops on shore and others where they weren't as involved.
I have no direct knowledge but would think that the initial deployment phase would be when they were doing most of the airlift to shore.
 When I was there the Belet Huen part of the operation had been well established and only required sustainment.
PRESERVER vice PROVIDER.  I wasn't there but I understand they did utility lift and recce/surveillance. Sam69 ?

Offline ch124xx

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2006, 22:52:26 »
Beenthere I pretty much agree with you. Sea Kings have done utility work since the begining but basically any helicopter can do utility in a non-threat in environment. You don't need a Nav, AESOp or FE specifically for the ultility role basically just an aft crewman. The current situation of using Nav and AESOps for the SCTF is basically because those are the people we have in Shearwater right now.
Don't forget that the CH124B config for SCTF PoC in Nov/Dec will be able to swing between straight troop lift with all the seats or be turned around reasonably quickly to use the sidefacing console with the usual (old) sensors minus ASW specific kit plus a few extra seats in the back depending on range/endurance requirements.  In the latter config, the aft crew seats would be back in and the TACCO and AESOP would be back in their more conventional MH roles (minus ASW).  Flexibility, the key to helo ops ?

In other news, I heard an interesting brief from the Royal Navy Commando Helicopter Force.  They are looking to convert more ex-dipper Sea Kings to Commando Role and to potentially put on the new Carson composite main rotor blades to further enhance their Sea King performance.  They are now looking to at least 2020.  Rumour has it they may even use surplus Sea Kings to replace the RAF's Puma's in the SH role.

Offline kj_gully

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2006, 21:48:25 »
Sea Kings did go ashore all the way into Belet Huen, at least once. After landing in the dust ball of all dust  balls, it sat on the ground for days until a maintenance crew could come in and fix it. It was very early in the deployment b4 427 came in with maybe twin hueys still? Probably.

Offline ch124xx

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2007, 11:16:53 »
Any news on how the SCTF exercise ITEEx went ?  What next for SCF ? for the CH124C ?

Offline FSTO

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2007, 17:47:57 »
Any news on how the SCTF exercise ITEEx went ?  What next for SCF ? for the CH124C ?

If you have access to the DIN go to the CMS website and click the SCF link at the bottom left. I just forget which link it is but there is a brief and a Lessons Learned (Access) section. Once I get back to work I'll post the link.

Here it is, go to search and type in SCF or SCTF and you'll get a ton of info. (some of it is even useful!  ;D)
http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/SCF/pages/ITEE06.asp
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 17:53:01 by FSTO »

Offline rmacqueen

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2007, 18:19:14 »
PRESERVER vice PROVIDER.  I wasn't there but I understand they did utility lift and recce/surveillance. Sam69 ?
Glad you cleared that up, I didn't remember anyone from 443 going over (but then again, at my age the mind starts to go ;D)
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Offline 284_226

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2007, 20:08:35 »
PRESERVER vice PROVIDER.  I wasn't there but I understand they did utility lift and recce/surveillance. Sam69 ?

They did indeed do utility lift and recce/surveillance.  Lots of utility lift.  Utility lift, day in and day out.  Did I mention they did utility lift?   ;D

Until then, I'd never seen so many different things slung under a Sea Thing.  I don't think there was a single person on the ship that didn't know what HDS stood for...

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2007, 23:43:49 »
For what it's worth, I've spent lots of time jumping in and out of Sea Kings from Norway to N.I. to the Gulf, from sea level to up around 9,000 ft, from minus 30C to plus 40 C, day and night, out at sea and over land, and I'm pretty much one of their biggest fans. Awesome helicopter. The version used by the Royal Navy (Mk 5 I think?) holds 16 fully loaded troops, two ski bundles, 2 loaded toboggans. We could also cram about 30 troops into them with just webbing on if we had to. Great navigation package. Tough as shoe leather. Small enough to drop into fairly restricted LZs (like a ship's deck, small SF base helipad, small mountainside meadows etc). Big enough to undersling a 105 lt gun or a loaded RHIB. Great platform for fast roping and rappelling. Good winch system. They're even great to parachute from. The US President flies in one. Civilian airlines use them. I see them all the time (S61 version) flying underslung logs around on the coast here. And they even float!

However, as with anything else, good performance is a function of adequate financial investment.
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Offline geo

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2007, 13:11:01 »
daft,
Believe the US President has had his ride upgraded over the last year. Was a sea thing but.... no more.
Chimo!

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2007, 13:18:03 »
daft,
Believe the US President has had his ride upgraded over the last year. Was a sea thing but.... no more.

This has been covered before......The US President's 'Sea Kings' are not the same model as what we fly.   In the role they play and the priority they would have for maintenance and upgrades, they no doubt have had all the 'Best' upgrades for that line of aircraft.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2007, 13:36:18 »
IIRC Marine One was being replaced with an EH101s
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Offline GAP

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2007, 13:39:39 »
IIRC Marine One was being replaced with an EH101s

Those the ones we cancelled?
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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2007, 14:19:57 »
Yup...well we got the variant for SAR work
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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aesop081

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2007, 15:43:22 »
IIRC Marine One was being replaced with an EH101s

Those the ones we cancelled?


Yup...well we got the variant for SAR work

Yhe ones that the US is buyin for POTUS are indeed EH-101s but are somewhat of a different beast altogether.

Offline ch124xx

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2007, 22:28:29 »
For what it's worth, I've spent lots of time jumping in and out of Sea Kings from Norway to N.I. to the Gulf, from sea level to up around 9,000 ft, from minus 30C to plus 40 C, day and night, out at sea and over land, and I'm pretty much one of their biggest fans. Awesome helicopter. The version used by the Royal Navy (Mk 5 I think?) holds 16 fully loaded troops, two ski bundles, 2 loaded toboggans. We could also cram about 30 troops into them with just webbing on if we had to. Great navigation package. Tough as shoe leather. Small enough to drop into fairly restricted LZs (like a ship's deck, small SF base helipad, small mountainside meadows etc). Big enough to undersling a 105 lt gun or a loaded RHIB. Great platform for fast roping and rappelling. Good winch system. They're even great to parachute from. The US President flies in one. Civilian airlines use them. I see them all the time (S61 version) flying underslung logs around on the coast here. And they even float!

However, as with anything else, good performance is a function of adequate financial investment.

Spotter comment: Mk4 Commando or "Jungly" version is flown by RN in support of Royal Marines however they have converted some surplus ex-ASW Mk6 Pingers to the Mk6CR "Commando Role" config to take on basic Support Helo tasks from ship or ashore (Bosnia and NI while the Mk4's were or are in Irag).  The Mk5's are used for SAR by the RN while the Mk3 and Mk3A's are used by the RAF for SAR.  The Mk7's (ex Mk2's) are the new ASAC role in the oldest airframes.  Straightforward ?

A team from DND visited the Commando Helicopter Fleet in the UK as a prep for the SCF conversion and other potential taskings.  The CH124, based on the Sikorsky S61, and the Westlands Sea King have pretty similar airframes but have had much more investment in specific mods (nav, nvg, tricked out engines, etc).  With the exception of the gnome engines and the stub wing sponsons the other mods are mostly doable if there was the mandate, funds, time, T&E resources, etc, etc.  The Brits are also more risk tolerant when it comes to aircraft modification programs especially with respect to egress standards.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canada converts Sea Kings for battlefield role with SCTF
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2007, 22:55:13 »
As you can tell, I was merely cargo. Thanks for the details trainspotter!

BTW, as far as I know, none of the aircraft I flew in had armour. Definitely didn't have  door guns; helps with the weight. Some of the NI versions had chaff or something attached for anti- SA7 purposes. SK also doesn't have a ramp, so it can be fiddly to get in/out of (or rather, ingress and egress). I also discovered that if you call ahead, the aircrew will sometimes put on a nice cup of chai for you. Very civilized.

I assume our newer choppers will be light years ahead of the old SK.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon