Author Topic: Dutch Apaches  (Read 21742 times)

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Offline Britney Spears

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2005, 01:39:50 »
Crossposting from Militaryphotos.net




Bell Helicopter, a unit of Textron Inc., (NYSE: TXT) was awarded a $2.2 billion contract by the United States Army to build its next generation Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter, or ARH. The ARH will replace the Army's OH-58D Kiowa Warrior Helicopter also produced by Bell. The contract calls for Bell Helicopter to build 368 aircraft for delivery during fiscal years 2006 through 2013.

â Å“We are honored to have been chosen by the U.S. Army to continue our legacy of providing outstanding Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter technology,â ? said Mike Redenbaugh, Chief Executive Officer of Bell Helicopter Textron. â Å“The Army requires a state-of-the art Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter and that's exactly what Bell Helicopter will deliver.â ?

Bell's ARH is a militarized version of its highly successful 407 single engine light helicopter. Capable of being equipped with a wide variety of weapons, the Bell ARH will provide the Army with exceptional mission versatility and with the flexibility to accomplish armed reconnaissance, light attack, troop insertion, and special operations missions with a single aircraft. The Bell ARH will also provide greater deployability, interoperability and survivability.

â Å“We look forward to this partnership both with the Army and with our world-class aerospace suppliersâ ”to provide a premier aircraft to America's troops,â ? Redenbaugh said.

Bell Helicopter Textron Inc., a subsidiary of Textron Inc., is a leading producer of commercial and military helicopters and the pioneer of the revolutionary tilt rotor aircraft. Globally recognized for customer service, innovation and superior quality, Bell's global workforce of over 7,500 employees serves customers flying Bell aircraft in over 120 countries.

Textron Inc. is a $10 billion multi-industry company with 44,000 employees in 40 countries. The company leverages its global network of aircraft, industrial and finance businesses to provide customers with innovative solutions and services. Textron is known around the world for its powerful brands such as Bell Helicopter, Cessna Aircraft, Jacobsen, Kautex, Lycoming, E-Z-GO and Greenlee, among others.

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If we paint it in a non-threatening color (pink), maybe  the gov't won't notice that they are armed?
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Offline BOOMER004

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2005, 19:36:21 »
Hey maybe they will sell the Chinooks back to us, alot more useful in the thin air in most parts of a-stan.
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Offline Teddy Ruxpin

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2005, 20:23:16 »
a_majoor:  As I indicated earlier, doctrine doesn't necessarily have to be developed by Canada in isolation.  We have the singular benefit of having close allies (UK, US and - soon - Australia) operating attack aviation.

As for the ARH, it has the singular benefit of being built in Montreal, so who knows?  However, IMHO (based in this case on a gut feel rather than any concrete evidence) I suggest it's just a dressed-up Kiowa - advertising aside.  It may well suit US doctrine where reconnaissance helicopters act in a different role than attack helicopters, but I am skeptical that its sensor suite is comparable to an Apache, Super Cobra, Tiger or the like.  I am also skeptical as to its level of protection and system redundency.  If we're after an LOH, it might work just fine.  However, I suggest that we need a platform that can do a bit more.  Otherwise, we might as well hang things off a Griffon and be done with it.

My two cents, as always.

TR
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Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2005, 13:55:12 »
Just a question,  Why is no one asking or talking about geting the Ch-53 instead of the chinook's.  Both are heavy lift choppers.  The Chinook may be a little tough to get ahold of but I would think that we could steal some Pav Low 4's for a fair price from the Americans.  Are they to small not strong enough or to expensive?  Thoughts......
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2005, 16:49:29 »
Just a question,   Why is no one asking or talking about geting the Ch-53 instead of the chinook's.   Both are heavy lift choppers.   The Chinook may be a little tough to get ahold of but I would think that we could steal some Pav Low 4's for a fair price from the Americans.   Are they to small not strong enough or to expensive?   Thoughts......

I have brought this up in other threads....try looking into some of the Air Force threads.
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Offline ringo

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2005, 05:27:05 »
I see no harm in acquiring a few Apaches, when forces deploy to a hot spot nice to a few of your own birds, earlier on this thread one of the poster's recommended paying off ADATS to pay for the Apaches IIRC the Apache fire control systems shares components with the ADATS.
RAF operates there Apaches off HMS Ocean do they have rotor folding?
I remember the forces selling the Chinooks off they did great work in the blizzard of 71 around London, I believe the forces should look at the CH-53 it may be better to operate of the navy's future support ships than Chinook.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2005, 18:28:36 »
Quote
I remember the forces selling the Chinooks off they did great work in the blizzard of 71 around London, I believe the forces should look at the CH-53 it may be better to operate of the navy's future support ships than Chinook
And you base that on....
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline ringo

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2005, 23:43:07 »
The USMC uses Ch-53's from navy ships for heavy lift this helo is bigger than Chinook and has rotor fold for shipboard storage.

Offline Wizard of OZ

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2005, 19:02:33 »
personally i think the CH-53 might be a better buy then the CH-47.  As the 53 are more modern and would not require the upgrades that the 47's do.   I don't think 5 attack helo's of any kind would help the forces.  How do you deploy only five and train and have parts.  I think if you are going to do things especially in the CF we have to stop doing them half assed and either buy 18-25 of the birds or none at all.  Of course this is just MOO
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2005, 20:24:12 »
I was under the impression that the CH53 was no longer being made whereas the CH47S are. Both would serve our needs but is not the Chinook more prevalent throughout the world thus would be easier to get spare parts when needed from different sources vice the CH53?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline ringo

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2005, 02:38:30 »
IIRC the USMC is soon to order about 150 new Ch-53's, the Chinook has out sold the Sea Stallion but the latter is a much larger helo perhaps overkill for some nations.

Offline geo

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2005, 10:26:35 »
As has been said, critical mass being an issue, it does not make sense to buy 5 of anything.... unless you are required to deploy only 1 at a time. They you have to think about parts, maintenance AND training the pilots to fly the bleeding thing.
You can't take a Griffon driver, give him the keys to your new Cobra/Apache and expect him to drive it competently without a lot of practice.

When the CF disposed of it's CH47 heavy lift capabilities a long time ago - it retained airframes (?)and pilots (reroling them to CH113s) so we have the people capable of operating twin rotor aircraft AND a training program to bring up more as required...........

With respect to the Apache - if we chose to go with this kind of aircraft, think the Cobras the USMC continues to operate says it all..........
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2005, 10:36:24 »
With respect to the Apache - if we chose to go with this kind of aircraft, think the Cobras the USMC continues to operate says it all..........

Let's see.   Marine Expeditionary Force.   Equipment prepositioned.  On ships.   One AH64 Apache takes up the space of....three AH1-Y Super Cobras.   I think that the Super Cobra will be around for a while, primarily due to this Logistical fact.   The Super Cobra also presents a much smaller target.
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Offline SF2

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2005, 10:48:50 »
Its my opinion, and mine only, that Canada's future rests with med lift and armed recce.  The apache was designed to hang out at the line of departure and kill threats to make way for an advancing mechanized force.  That isn't Canada's doctrine anymore, not to mention the crazy costs.

Todays assymetric threats require a more surgical, and in Canada's context, CHEAPER method of being able to spot a small group of enemy, and either destroy them, or guide in someone else to do it.  We need something small, fast, with excellent electro-optic equipment, and a decent defensive/light offensive weapon, augmented by another chopper that can move a QRF should the LOH helicopter be unable to do the job itself.

Bell 407/Chinnook combo sounds good to me.....

Offline Mud

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2006, 19:27:39 »
Ok I'm the guy who strted that discussion on CASR - it was just a thought.  But since the Americans have announced that the 407-based entry won the recce competition it seems like a good choice - armed scout, likely able (with some mods) to carry a small team of operators AND it's made in Quebec - even the politicians can dig this one!

Offline Centurian1985

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2006, 23:58:28 »
Confusing title - I was thinking of Aboriginals from the Netherlands...   ;D

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2006, 00:05:07 »
Todays assymetric threats require a more surgical, and in Canada's context, CHEAPER method of being able to spot a small group of enemy, and either destroy them, or guide in someone else to do it.  We need something small, fast, with excellent electro-optic equipment, and a decent defensive/light offensive weapon, augmented by another chopper that can move a QRF should the LOH helicopter be unable to do the job itself.

How about this? http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_05/iss_4/CAJ_vol5.4_11_e.pdf
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Eland

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2006, 20:53:37 »
I disagree entirely.

We used Dutch Apaches to very good effect in Kabul earlier this year and ISAF was beginning to panic after they realized that they were being withdrawn later in the Spring.

The AH-64 is an excellent surveillance and reconnaissance platform that was critical to the success of a number of major operations.  Moreover, it was built into virtually every contingency plan developed by the Brigade, including a couple of "coalition operations".  Apaches were also used for very public deterrence displays and even played prominent roles in a couple of President Karzai's public appearances.  They worked hand-in-glove with Recce Sqn and had an excellent operational focus.

The Dutch were able to maintain very high readiness levels throughout the tour and never (AFAIK) experienced maintenance problems to the point where mission availability was affected.  The Apache is light-years more capable than a Griffon with an ad hoc "gunship" capability could ever hope to be.  "Cool" isn't an issue - platform capacity is.

If we're to go down this route (and I think we should - and partially pay for it by scrapping "direct fire" ADATS  ;D), we'd need more than five aircraft to be effective.  Personally, I think about 18 - 24 would do it.

My two cents.

Teddy "Apache" Ruxpin

Teddy,

Let's not forget that in addition to making a good surveillance and anti-armour platform, the Apache can also be used to great effect against soft-skinned vehicles and troops in the open or who are not well dug-in. An Apache can swing in and strike fast and forcefully, then be gone  before the targets know what's hit them.

I agree with you, five is better than none. And anyway, any serious piece of military kit has a significant logistical train attached to it. That is simply an inevitable side effect of technologically advanced materiel. Are we abandoning our CF-18 fleet, or for that matter, the Sea Kings just because of the significant O & M investment they require? No. The concern over cost, is, as usual, a red herring. I cite the MMEV project as proof. QED, as they say.

One of the biggest reasons why the Canadian military is in a mess right now is because of too much ad-hocery being practiced over the years in an attempt to save money. That is, we end up buying kit that doesn't really serve our needs to begin with, and then try to shoehorn it into a role it was never designed for. The MGS is a good example. It's designed for light cavalry fire support, but is replacing tanks built to take on a much more demanding role.
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Offline Armymatters

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2006, 20:51:02 »
I don't think we want the Dutch Apache's currently in Afghanistan... I recieved word that recently, a Apache was turned over by the jet exhaust of a nearby Ilyushin 76, severely damaging it. The Dutch apparantly are sending a replacement to replace the damaged Apache.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/10/Navigation/177/206471/Pictures+Dutch+Boeing+AH-64D+Apache+'blown+over'+on+Day+Two+of+Afghan.html

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2006, 00:05:04 »
I don't think we want the Dutch Apache's currently in Afghanistan... I recieved word that recently, a Apache was turned over by the jet exhaust of a nearby Ilyushin 76, severely damaging it. The Dutch apparantly are sending a replacement to replace the damaged Apache.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/10/Navigation/177/206471/Pictures+Dutch+Boeing+AH-64D+Apache+'blown+over'+on+Day+Two+of+Afghan.html

I am not sure how a runway accident like this reflects on the Apache either good or bad. For our own purposes, the Apache is very expensive, so it would be prudent to see what alternatives exist, either conventional attack helicopters (such as the Cobra series, Eurocopter Tiger, a129 Mongoose, etc.), light helicopters (such as the MD-500 series), or other means to the same ends (UACV's).

Each alternative has various advantages and disadvantages, and needs careful consideration as to how it fits into our needs.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Armymatters

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Re: Dutch Apaches
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2006, 20:36:08 »
I am not sure how a runway accident like this reflects on the Apache either good or bad. For our own purposes, the Apache is very expensive, so it would be prudent to see what alternatives exist, either conventional attack helicopters (such as the Cobra series, Eurocopter Tiger, a129 Mongoose, etc.), light helicopters (such as the MD-500 series), or other means to the same ends (UACV's).

Each alternative has various advantages and disadvantages, and needs careful consideration as to how it fits into our needs.

I was just stating that if we wanted Apaches, the Dutch ones in Afghanistan are probally not the best place to go looking for them. The AH-1 Cobra would probally be our best bet, as it is fairly cheap, and fires weapons that we are familiar with already (TOW).