Author Topic: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)  (Read 154062 times)

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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #350 on: December 23, 2016, 16:40:30 »
After years of status quo....Toronto joined the ranks of other cities that have a minority as their chief. Vancouver had a Chinese guy as the chief for a while and am sure other cities do as well.

OP...a minority CDS at time soon? Probably won't happen in our lifetime. As you alluded to, nobody is dumb enough these days to go up to someone and show their racist inclination, but the system can be used to hold back minorities from getting ahead in the CAF. I mean what is the number of visible minorities past the rank of MWO or LCol in all the CAF elements?

Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals? Wouldn't you rather the most qualified personnel be selected to fill the job, rather than just promote people to fill a "visible diversity quota"?
"The most important six inches on the battlefield is between your ears.” ~General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Institutional Racism In The Canadian Armed Forces?!
« Reply #351 on: December 23, 2016, 16:53:12 »
Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals?

Because its current year.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #352 on: December 23, 2016, 17:17:26 »
Why does it matter how many women or minorities have become RSMs or Generals?

Not for me to say "why".
But, for anyone interested, the statistics begin on page 22,

CANADIAN FORCES EMPLOYMENT EQUITY
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/mdn-dnd/D3-31-2012-eng.pdf

Men
Women
Aboriginal People
Visible Minorities
Persons with Disabilities

MILITARY OCCUPATIONAL GROUPS
REPRESENTATION PER MILITARY RANK - OFFICERS and NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 17:26:03 by mariomike »

Offline reverse_eng

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #353 on: December 23, 2016, 17:29:12 »
BS. At least two commanders I've had were female or a visible minority. Both at the GOFO level now. I don't think they would have wanted it handed to them, either.


Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #354 on: December 23, 2016, 17:34:24 »
These stats are 2011– 2012.

I believe they are the most recent statistics available.

To view the stats, click, "Continue to pdf."
http://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/mdn-dnd/D3-31-2012-eng.pdf

BS.

I don't know why they keep stats.
But, they are obviously going to a lot of time and trouble to do so.  That's some very detailed record keeping. Must be important to someone(s).  :)

More on the recent case,
http://www.680news.com/2016/12/23/three-former-military-members-launch-suit-alleging-systemic-racism-forces-2/
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 18:16:24 by mariomike »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #355 on: December 23, 2016, 20:29:16 »
If this supervisor say grew up in a small town with no exposure to minorities, or was done wrong in the past by a certain minority group, you can't tell me that their judgement dealing with minorities won't be effected by their experience. People are afraid of the unknown/what they don't know....this is a fact!

And I say BULLSHIT.  I am a white guy from a relatively small town, and I've had subordinates that are from minority groups and I treat them the same as anyone else...how they perform and get along with other people.  If they are awesome, they are awesome.  If they are hammerheads, they are hammerheads.

I didn't need any special training and surveys, I had a really simple thing back in the day called 'The 10 Principles of Leadership' to guide me on how I conducted myself as a Jnr/Snr NCO (the 3 Ms...Mission, Men, Myself).  My recruit serial in Cornwallis 27 years ago had people from all across the country and different backgrounds, some of them Native/Aboriginal, and guess how they were treated?  Depended on how they performed and got along with people.  Wow.  With no special training either!!

This "from top to bottom, systemic" line is utter BULLSHIT.  Are there people in uniform that don't act IAW our Military Ethics/Ethos?  There are, there is no doubt.  But what people like me, Average Joe White Guy in Uniform, are tired of is being told we are all rapists, racist hunks of trash who can't use common sense and have had parents and communities who didn't bring us up as decent Canadians.

Make the message accurate and I'll stand behind it; there is a problem with SOME people in uniform who have actions and attitudes that do not follow the ones demanded by the CAF.  I've got 27 years in, serving in Army, Air and Navy units, both Reg and Reserve, and this 'systemic top to bottom' message is false.  Have I witnessed racist comments, harassment, etc?  Yup...but I can count those on 1 hand over 27 years in the mob. 

The worst one I witnessed personally was a superior (NCM) who referred to a group of about 5 of us (Snr NCOs on a course) as 'you $#(&* white guys', the year was 2003.  He was an Aborginal / Native Canadian.  Should that = 'all Aboriginal/Native service members are racist toward @&(*@#@ white guys?  It didn't, and doesn't to me to this day.  That wouldn't be fair to the rest of the Aboriginal/Native service members, would it? 

Should there now be a survey and public outcry because I would answer the survey truthfully and state I was on the receiving end of a racist comment by a Native Canadian superior at least once, and suggest it "is top to bottom, and every Aboriginal / Native service member is part of it"? 

Full stop;  it is not top to bottom, systemic and 'everyone'.  I am tired the wide brush crap, pointed at ANY group in the CAF.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 22:21:39 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #356 on: December 23, 2016, 21:48:40 »
Harjit Sajjan says he ‘faced a lot of racism’ while in Canadian military
http://globalnews.ca/news/3129853/canadian-military-racism-harjit-sajjan-isis-mosul/
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, the first Sikh-Canadian to command a Canadian army regiment, said he never experienced racism before joining the military.

“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” Sajjan told Global News in a one-on-one interview.

Offline Jed

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #357 on: December 24, 2016, 00:32:08 »
Harjit Sajjan says he ‘faced a lot of racism’ while in Canadian military
http://globalnews.ca/news/3129853/canadian-military-racism-harjit-sajjan-isis-mosul/
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan, the first Sikh-Canadian to command a Canadian army regiment, said he never experienced racism before joining the military.

“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” Sajjan told Global News in a one-on-one interview.

Wow!  That is telling. I find this very, very hard to believe that he did not experience racism prior to going in the military and subsequently the military life exposed him to said racism.

I suspect he has succumbed to social and political pressure to tow the perceived party line at the expense of the troops.

It it certainly alters my very positive impression I had of him when he first took on the job. Kind of like when Pres. Obama came in and eight years later you can't wait for him to just go away. Absolutely nothing to do with racism.

Needless to say this is just my personal opinion and I would never express it if I was still in a uniform in service to the Country.

As the old man used to say: " I used to be a coyote, but I'm alright nooooOOOOWWW!"

Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #358 on: December 24, 2016, 00:53:18 »
Kind of like when Pres. Obama came in and eight years later you can't wait for him to just go away.

Then, it's a good thing he can't be re-elected to a third term! He won his second term by a popular vote margin of 5 million votes and 332 electoral votes.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 01:01:00 by mariomike »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #359 on: December 24, 2016, 01:11:38 »
Wow!  That is telling. I find this very, very hard to believe that he did not experience racism prior to going in the military and subsequently the military life exposed him to said racism.

I don't know, think about it.  Maybe when he joined the Reserves, it was one of the times he was out of his 'cultural community' for any length of time, and mixed in with others who are Canadian but identify as "XYZ-Canadian", and those cultural backgrounds don't care for each other. 

Disclaimer - I have no idea of the MNDs personal history at all, but just trying to demonstrate a scenario this is plausible.  I think it is certainly possible, maybe more so in the Reserve than Regular world.
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #360 on: December 24, 2016, 02:41:39 »
I don't know, think about it.  Maybe when he joined the Reserves, it was one of the times he was out of his 'cultural community' for any length of time, and mixed in with others who are Canadian but identify as "XYZ-Canadian", and those cultural backgrounds don't care for each other. 

Disclaimer - I have no idea of the MNDs personal history at all, but just trying to demonstrate a scenario this is plausible.  I think it is certainly possible, maybe more so in the Reserve than Regular world.

I'm not buying it either.

He grew up in Vancouver in the 70's and 80's where there was rampant anti-Indian/Sikh behaviours going on. It only got worse in the 90's with the rise of his high school classmate Bindy Johal and the following gang wars initiated by the Punjabi Mafia.

He joined VPD in 1999, I'm sure there was no shortage of some of those racist types there too, just in the same that Baltej Singh Dhillon faced when the Supreme Court ruled that the RCMP had to permit the wearing of the turban. He has had and continues to have a very successful career, but not without some racist bumps in the road.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #361 on: December 24, 2016, 10:04:08 »
Wow!  That is telling. I find this very, very hard to believe that he did not experience racism prior to going in the military and subsequently the military life exposed him to said racism.

At first glance I found that statement very hard to believe too.  Moved to Canada at 5 and was 19 before he experienced racism? There's no way.
I did some reading and found a mention in an interview in Huffpost where he said "he hadn't faced racist comments as much because he'd grown up in a very multicultural part of Vancouver. But in the military, it was a new thing back then, so it came as a bit of a shock to me."

I think when he says "“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” it was poor wording in an attempt to exemplify how bad the racism was.
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Offline Jed

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #362 on: December 24, 2016, 13:41:04 »
At first glance I found that statement very hard to believe too.  Moved to Canada at 5 and was 19 before he experienced racism? There's no way.
I did some reading and found a mention in an interview in Huffpost where he said "he hadn't faced racist comments as much because he'd grown up in a very multicultural part of Vancouver. But in the military, it was a new thing back then, so it came as a bit of a shock to me."

I think when he says "“I finally found out what racism was when I joined the military,” it was poor wording in an attempt to exemplify how bad the racism was.

I sincerely hope that was the case.  I will be on watch and shoot before I form a rock solid personal opinion.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #363 on: August 15, 2019, 13:05:17 »
Quote
August 14, 2019
Global News

Defence minister requests probe into racism in the Armed Forces
https://globalnews.ca/news/5766066/defence-minister-racism-armed-forces/
OTTAWA — Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has asked Canada’s military ombudsman to investigate racism in the Canadian Forces following several high-profile incidents and a report linking service members to right-wing extremist and hate groups.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #364 on: August 15, 2019, 13:21:37 »
What are the 'several recent high profile' incidents?  The proud boys thing was in 2017, nothing else comes to mind.

There are already all kinds of policies to deal with this specifically, what is the ombudsman supposed to look at exactly?  Not politics, my arse; pull the other one.

30 out of 75k members is 0.04%, and 2 have already been released.  Presumably the CoC of the other 28 are capable of using the existing tools to deal with it. With all the ongoing mental health, suicide and other issues seems like the Ombudsman's time could be better spent.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #365 on: August 15, 2019, 14:31:41 »
As noted in the linked article they refer to having received the background for their story through recent Access to Information requests.

The following are probably the related ATI requests.

https://open.canada.ca/en/search/ati/reference/cbf3cf450a88aa11e364726020ac9da3
Quote
Organization: National Defence

Year: 2019

Month: May

Request Number: A-2018-01522

Request Summary: Briefing notes to the MND/CDS/COS/DM/ADM/GOFOs 2015-present related to right wing, alt-right, nationalist, anti-immigrant, or Nazi, neo-Nazi, citizen militia, white supremacist, white nationalist, anti-Semitic, anti-Indigenous groups or individuals w/ CA

Disposition: Disclosed in part

Number of Pages: 32

https://open.canada.ca/en/search/ati/reference/2fbd7d101c60d78050f90313768c9e10
Quote
Organization: National Defence

Year: 2019

Month: May

Request Number: A-2018-01844

Request Summary: All reports, briefing notes and memos prior to 1 January 2018 dealing (exclusively or among other things) with extreme-right movements and their infiltration into the CAF / presence among CAF members.

Disposition: Disclosed in part

Number of Pages: 129

Since they are already completed requests, they are available for "informal requests" on-line.   Having made such requests in the past, they've usually been sent out within 2 to 3 weeks.
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Offline Baden Guy

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #366 on: August 16, 2019, 08:41:50 »
A news item relevant to this discussion:

"After several high-profile incidents, military's ombudsman investigating racism in Canadian Armed Forces

"Steve Morrisey devoted years of his career toward making the Canadian military a more friendly place for Indigenous members. Now, he's warning them to avoid it at all costs — at a time when the Department of National Defence is trying to recruit more Indigenous people.

The civilian employee at the DND filed a harassment complaint in 2015, alleging his military superior at Canadian Forces Base Halifax used racist terms. A DND investigation found there were two instances of harassment."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/halifax-dnd-worker-harassment-1.5246159

Based on my personal experience this report contains many of the thoughts and feelings one goes through when being harassed. A well written article.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #367 on: August 16, 2019, 09:10:56 »
What are the 'several recent high profile' incidents?  The proud boys thing was in 2017, nothing else comes to mind.
If I were cynical.....  ;)

….I'd suggest the sailor with the "Infidel" tattoo and the need for LPC to be seen doing something positive before the election are the 'incidents.'

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #368 on: August 16, 2019, 09:26:36 »
Not just an infidel tattoo, an infidel tattoo in the shape of a gun.

 :panic:
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Offline mariomike

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:29:35 by mariomike »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #370 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:43 »
Quote
But it said while 16 members of the armed forces had been linked to hate groups, and another 37 were alleged to have engaged in racist or hate-motivated conduct between 2013 and 2018, that represented only 0.1 per cent of the military population.

16 out of 95,000 active and reserve members?
Whats the criteria to be "linked" to a hate group anyways?
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #371 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:27 »
Not just an infidel tattoo, an infidel tattoo in the shape of a gun.

 :panic:

Let's really drill down and see how many members of the Public Service and any contractor with the Federal government bear scrutiny.

And the RCMP.

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #372 on: August 16, 2019, 11:38:16 »
FFS......when you want to investigate something FOR REAL you don't announce it to the freakin' world.
"Hey, Hells Angel guys, we're going to investigate your Ottawa chapter, and here are the undercovers we're letting you patch in".
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #373 on: August 16, 2019, 11:57:34 »
FFS......when you want to investigate something FOR REAL you don't announce it to the freakin' world.
"Hey, Hells Angel guys, we're going to investigate your Ottawa chapter, and here are the undercovers we're letting you patch in".

Oh......  Nobody told you?
 
This isn't a real investigation, it's political theatre  8)

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)
« Reply #374 on: August 16, 2019, 12:00:36 »
>Let's really drill down and see how many members of the Public Service and any contractor with the Federal government bear scrutiny.

I'd rather challenge the adults to set a threshold.  Zero is commendable, but always hard to reach (diminishing returns).  Given reasonably diligent policies to unmask and evict undesirables but which are nonetheless unlikely to achieve perfection, what is the boundary at which the government response is "Yes, we know there are always going to be some problem individuals; yes, we will deal with these people if they are brought to our attention by means outside our own; no, we are not going to increase efforts beyond what we already do" ?
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