Author Topic: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)  (Read 81841 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #325 on: January 18, 2020, 14:42:04 »
Except, they create the command structure, promotes some people into, create staff positions, add a support section in NDHQ, in the schools and neglect to buy equipment and have no troops trained or training to use it in the field. Sticking to a troop level for now means they can use the existing resources and have a Captain/Lieutenant command the Troop and Major advising the Brigade of the AD assets and deployment. once you sorted out the structure, add a troop to each Reg force artillery unit, also select and tag one Reserve unit as well (Likely one co-located to a reg force unit and has sufficient strength.) 

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #326 on: January 18, 2020, 16:06:13 »
Except, they create the command structure, promotes some people into, create staff positions, add a support section in NDHQ, in the schools and neglect to buy equipment and have no troops trained or training to use it in the field. Sticking to a troop level for now means they can use the existing resources and have a Captain/Lieutenant command the Troop and Major advising the Brigade of the AD assets and deployment. once you sorted out the structure, add a troop to each Reg force artillery unit, also select and tag one Reserve unit as well (Likely one co-located to a reg force unit and has sufficient strength.)

That did not work awesome in the 1980s. The RCHA COs generally made no effort to learn Air Defence and generally the AD batteries ended up as either a dumping ground for the gun batteries or as a manning pool to top up the gun dets.

FJAG has it right: get 4 AD Regt fully up and running again, with some reserve units feeding it. We are a rich nation and can afford it.

Offline Colin P

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #327 on: January 18, 2020, 17:40:02 »
One could start changing mindsets by having the undefended artillery units taken out by enemy air in the exercise and CP's wiped out in the first hours. That may drive the lesson home?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #328 on: January 19, 2020, 00:29:26 »
One could start changing mindsets by having the undefended artillery units taken out by enemy air in the exercise and CP's wiped out in the first hours. That may drive the lesson home?

Please.

I can assure you that never worked.

Offline CloudCover

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #329 on: January 19, 2020, 21:56:57 »
Avenger is hardly a big-cost high/hi risk investment, although DND is perfectly capable of making it so.  Why is such a difficult decision?
... Move!! ...

Offline FJAG

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #330 on: January 20, 2020, 00:08:11 »
Avenger is hardly a big-cost high/hi risk investment, although DND is perfectly capable of making it so.  Why is such a difficult decision?

And it would integrate easily into the big US umbrella.

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Offline MilEME09

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Offline Colin P

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #332 on: April 02, 2020, 16:34:00 »
If we needed a demonstration of how vulnerable a unprotected armoured column is to UAV's equipped with weapon systems, then we can just look what the Turks did to the SAA recently.

Offline FJAG

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #333 on: April 02, 2020, 16:37:28 »
https://militaryleak.com/2020/04/02/us-army-to-soon-wrap-up-early-testing-of-short-range-air-defense-system/

Maybe a future system for us?
I'd be happy if we just started with a battery or two of Avengers to tide us over.



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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #334 on: April 02, 2020, 16:49:27 »
Please.

I can assure you that never worked.

A lot of the big thinkers say "we should do something about that" and that's about as far as it goes.

PLUS the ones who want to and try to do things are posted before anything happens.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #335 on: April 02, 2020, 17:09:02 »
What happens to undefended armoured units in the modern battlespace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3vKrdGhxA

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #336 on: April 02, 2020, 17:14:11 »
What happens to undefended armoured units in the modern battlespace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3vKrdGhxA

Gulf War 1 - What was the term they used when they literally bombed the crap out of the Iraqi Army in 191?

The Highway of Death
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #337 on: April 03, 2020, 16:09:41 »
Gulf War 1 - What was the term they used when they literally bombed the crap out of the Iraqi Army in 191?

The Highway of Death

Dunkirk was kind of like that too... as was the Falaise pocket
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Offline FJAG

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #338 on: July 04, 2020, 22:05:59 »
Provocative.

Quote
Who’s GBAD is it anyway?
by Hugo April 12, 2018

This article is a sequel to Hugo’s first article: “The Alliance vs The Bear – Some Fundamentals of Why Russia Won’t Win”

Last time we looked at the British Army’s ability to fight another land force on its own, and the accepted logic that it wouldn’t have to.  In part 2 of my Rant Trilogy, let’s look at the ability / will of the RAF to support the land forces…

The RAF’s priorities are pretty clearly laid down in AP3000 – the RAF’s cornerstone doctrine.[1]  The highest priority is air superiority; destruction of strategic targets is next on the list.  Supporting land forces in a battle is the lowest priority, just after making Army people sit in random air bases across the world for undisclosed periods of time without telling them why.

The Army will be expecting the RAF to support them in the ground battle to reduce land force casualties.  Since the RAF’s ability to conduct close air support or air interdiction for ground forces is firstly based on the provision of air superiority, land forces won’t see an F-35 unless loads of Typhoons are deployed to protect them.  Since there aren’t that many Typhoons, and last time we showed that losing an F-35 is a non-starter,[2] the Army is unlikely to receive (Close Air Support) CAS in a conventional battle.  We learnt bad lessons from Afghan (again).

So if our fighters are somewhere else, what’s to stop our enemy conducting air attacks on our ground forces?  This is where the answer should be: GBAD.  But it’s a well-known deficiency of the British Forces[3] – not least due to some horrifically complicated capability ownership internal politics.  So what do we do?  Again, step in conventional wisdom – we borrow it from another nation…

On a ‘recent’ exercise in Fort Leavenworth I witnessed combined joint planning with our US counterparts with representatives from across the US Armed Forces and some coalition nations. Prior to that exercise I had conducted multiple planning cycles that almost always included the phrase “GBAD? Don’t worry about that, we’ll borrow it from the Dutch”. I asked a Dutch Officer of his opinion on this and his response was that they borrow it from the Americans. So imagine my surprise therefore when on said exercise in the USA a USMC Major made the assumption that they would borrow our GBAD because that’s what they always assumed! I’m sure you can see the problem…

How has this happened?  While we were knee deep in a Counter-Insurgency operation, what were all our partner nations doing?  Oh that’s right…  they were there too!

So we can’t assume that we can just borrow a capability we lack from another nation.  We must be able to stand independently.  We must sort out our internal bickering and bureaucracy and come up with some better ways of protecting our force.  Make one service responsible for the funding, manning and provision of the GBAD might be a start.  But let’s go further than that.  Why is it CAS platforms can only act where there is air superiority?  The risk to the pilot and the highly expensive platform…  So, with the proliferation of unmanned aerial vehicles, why are we still spending billions of pounds on a platform that must be manned (by a bloody expensive pilot)?  By using a cheaper, unmanned platform we’re reducing the cost of a loss in both treasure, and eliminating the cost in blood…  Sounds logical to me…

In the first instalment, we assumed that we were already in a conflict and therefore the Sun Tsu approach wouldn’t work.  Let’s revisit that.  Hands up those who think we’re not already in a conflict with Russia…  All those with your hands up read this.[4]  So it’s too late.  We’re constantly telling the world we’re terrified of Russia then doing nothing about it.  Time to change that!

In the final part of the trilogy I will rant some more, focusing on this “say-do gap” and offer a way towards a solution for many of our self-generated issues.

The views expressed within individual posts and media are those of the author and do not reflect any official position or that of the author’s employees or employer. Concerns regarding content should be addressed to hi@wavellroom.com

[1] Air Staff.  AP3000: British Air and Space Power Doctrine.  4th Ed.  (London:  Ministry of Defence) P.7

[2] https://wavellroom.com/2018/01/26/the-alliance-vs-the-bear-some-fundamentals-of-why-russia-wont-win-part-1/

[3] Gen Barrons quoted in the Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/14/cuts-have-left-army-20-years-date-forces-not-fit-purpose/

[4] https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/testimonies/CT400/CT468/RAND_CT468.pdf

See article here

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)
« Reply #339 on: July 04, 2020, 22:15:43 »
Provocative.

See article here

 :stirpot:

Nailed it. We’ll be in a similar situation without the ability to interact seamlessly with F-35 equipped allies.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon