Author Topic: Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )  (Read 49938 times)

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Offline Bert

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #125 on: December 10, 2005, 18:52:37 »
The warm bodies, if I understand the context correctly, serve as role models or people of minority that have made it
into the CF.

Separating the issue of recruiting potential applicants and members who are already in the CF, the government in
general is trying to attract people who are representative of the overall population.  The face of Canada in the last
30 years have changed.  Also the CF is challenged by attrition, retirement, recruitment, and recent changes to
enhance the Force.

In my opinion, the average aboriginal, chinese, south american, vietnamese, immigrant or second generation as
examples are less likely to consider the CF as a possible career choice.  I see no problem in the government or
the CF reaching out to ethnicities advertising recruitment. 

I agree with GO!!!'s statement ,"Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it -
color and sex be damned.".  However, to pick the best, you need applicants.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #126 on: December 10, 2005, 19:08:10 »
However, to pick the best, you need applicants.

We have plenty of applicants.   There just seems to be a problem with the fact that they are overwhelmingly young white males.   Why?

There are better ways to attract people then saying "Hey look, this person has the same skin colour as you - Sign Up!"
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Offline Dog

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2005, 00:46:34 »
 I don't think anyone has a problem with the government reaching out to minorities who wouldn't traditionally think of the CF as a viable option for a career, but I think that reaching out to one group at the expense of another group who, let's face it, is the bread and butter of the recruiting system, is folly. The government should pull it's head out of it's *** and accept the fact that there are not as many women out there who have the desire to join the infantry, as there are men. I don't think that the CF should be an mens-only club either, but let's face facts and acknowlege that it's going to be a boys club for as long as we aren't specifically engineering women for combat on a genetic level. There will be exceptions, and that's great, but not many.

 And there quite simply are not a huge percentage of Aboriginals out there to begin with... 2% of the population. That's including women and elderly and children... how many of what's left will meet the requirments? 30% maybe? How many of those are practical to reach? How many are going to be interested even after the forces looks like a viable option? How many are we talking about now? Seems like the pie is sliced pretty thin.

 As for immigrants, how many are fully intergrated into Canadian Society? Go into the nearest ethnic centre of any major city and you are going to find huge numbers of people who can barely speak English, or who can't speak it at all. You think they've got a deep-seated loyalty to our country, a loyalty deep enough that they are willing to die for it? How many have a military/family history in Canada? Now, how many young white guys on this forum have a relative, whom they are proud of, who fought for Canada at some point in the past?

 Now, how much money is the CF willing to spend to try to fight what has, so far, been an uphill battle? Is it worth it?

 I'm not advocating ignoring those segements of society, but what's wrong with fishing where the fish are biting?
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Offline BBa1gab

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #128 on: December 12, 2005, 18:48:41 »
It may not be an easy process, but intergrating non-Caucasians into the Canadian Army is an important goal. The percentage of the Canadian population that is non-white is only going to increase, and the Army should reflects that fact. Reaching out to minority applicants will NOT be "at the expense of another group", who is indeed the "bread and butter of the recruiting system". This program encourages minority applicants to be more interested in the Canadian Military, but it will not be an affirmative action program. Qualified minority applicants who have not considered a career with the DND might join, which is an undeniably good result, but under-qualified minority applicants will NOT take the place of a qualified white male soldier simply due to his minority status.

White male Canadians are indeed more likely to have military ties to this country - but should they be the only ones who do? If programs like this succeed in drawing more qualified minority candidates to the Canadian Military, then more of them will have the "deep-seated loyalty" to Canada that you speak of. Perhaps that will help intergrate the increasing number of immigrants to this country.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #129 on: December 12, 2005, 19:13:04 »
Stupor,

You are using "immigrant" interchangeably with "visible minority" which I find interesting. Since our illustrious government is actively assisting "visible" immigrants to Canada, while raising the bar ever higher for "invisible" immigrants (primarily of scandinavian and european descent) you have to wonder just what these polices are in the first place.

Canada was built on the white, european settler, why is this something to be ashamed of, and it seems, eradicated?

You state that vis-min applicants will not take the place of other less well endowed applicants - how is that? If there are a limited number of positions, and priority is given to people who are the color of the month, how can other applicants hope not to be excluded?

Categorising applicants by the color of their skin is RACIST whether it is to help them get a job or not.

I would suggest that certain numbers of immigrants with skills required by the forces be conscripted as a "price" for them and their families to immigrate. This great nation of ours was not free for our families, why should it be for theirs?
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Offline BBa1gab

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2005, 20:35:50 »
I used "immigrant" interchangeably with "visible minority" because the majority of new immigrants to Canada are visible minorities. I am not aware of different immigration standards for applicants of Scandinavian and European descent, but I welcome you to enlighten me on that topic.

This program does not show that the Military is "ashamed" of its white, European root, or that it wants that legacy to be "eradicated". It simply seeks to keep the Military up to date with changing demographics of the Canadian population. I may have read wrongly, but from what I understand, this program merely encourages visible minority applicants to apply, presumably because they are under-represented in the Military. That encouragement does not, and indeed should not, translate into preferential recruitment. If there is no preferential treatment after applicant applies, then it would not be racist.

Immigrating to this country is no more free than it was in the past; present day immigrants pay their price to come here. It is a great country to immigrate to, for sure, and I would hope that as a good Canadian, you would welcome programs that call on these new immigrants to serve this great country.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2005, 22:59:10 »
The most common barrier emplaced is that of the ever elusive refugee status.

Immigrants from developed nations must show skills required in Canada, knowledge of the nation and at least one official language, identification, health checks, a large balance in a bank account and enter onto a long waiting list. It is difficult for these people to obtain refugee status because their countries keep accurate records and do not, as a group persecute their citizens.

Refugees are often turned loose in our cities while immigration attempts to confirm their identities. After they have lived there for a few years, they cannot be deported and are permitted to sponsor the rest of their families for entrance. The only prerequisite for entry is a belief that they will be persecuted in their home countries. While here, refugees and their families are entitled to the use of our Health Care system, a drivers licence, and welfare. Their children are citizens.

Policies like this allowed the illustrious Khadr family into Canada - and allows them to stay, despite well known and publicised terrorist connections, and the fact that the youngest son was recieving medical care in Canada after being wounded in a shootout with US troops in Afghanistan.

I welcome legitimate immigrants to Canada, but the legitimate, documented, legal immigrants are vastly outnumbered by the illegal refugees who stream into Canada on false pretenses, and take full advantage of a system they have no intention of ever participating in or supporting.

At present, 13% of the Canadian population identifies as a visible minority http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050322/d050322b.htm, and the CF has expressed in the past that this goal has been "exceeded".

If the goal has been met - Why the drive to have a disproportionately high number of visible minorities?

No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline geo

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #132 on: December 13, 2005, 05:01:17 »
I am confused that this discussion is even taking place.
Some leaders in the CF have determined that while we have been having success in bringing in the front door white franco/anglo males & females BUT that we have been having limited success in even getting to see potential candidates from these other groups.
The request for volunteers - from serving members in these same said other groups - was to provide some confidence builders - make the Recruiter's "sell job" easier to deliver.
The fact that someone had the brains to realise that some of our serving members could help - without yanking em out of their units is a good thing.
Chimo!

Offline SHELLDRAKE!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #133 on: December 13, 2005, 06:06:37 »
 Does this not imply that by having a "visible minority" CF member try recruiting, they will attract more recruits of the same race? Sounds a little clanish to me.

 Since when do we want to attract soldiers/sailors/airmen based on their minority standings and not on their genuine desire to serve? IMHO the government is so afraid of sounding racist/sexist that they have gone completely overboard.

 CF recruiting should be spending funds expanding to urban areas and building more recruiting offices in order to make the forces apealing to all Canadians. Instead the powers that be come up with these ideas that are intended to imply that up till now we were a white boys only club but we are going to change things.
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Offline Dog

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #134 on: December 13, 2005, 06:49:15 »
... Reaching out to minority applicants will NOT be "at the expense of another group", who is indeed the "bread and butter of the recruiting system". This program encourages minority applicants to be more interested in the Canadian Military, but it will not be an affirmative action program. Qualified minority applicants who have not considered a career with the DND might join, which is an undeniably good result, but under-qualified minority applicants will NOT take the place of a qualified white male soldier simply due to his minority status...

I politely suggest you wake up and take a look around at some of the other governemt services that white anglo males are being slowly pushed out of. Men in general are rapidly being failed in the education system, and now are a minority on college/university campuses, because the government set up the system to be more accomodating to girls, the police department now HAS to hire a certain number of minorities and women, and as a result more highly qualified white guys get told that they should take a hike. Same with the Fire department. There are special days to recognize women in the workplace, there are programs for women to deal with domestic violence, but nothing/little for men (that's an odd topic anyway... but whatever), there is a systematic discrimination against men when it come to the legal system and divorce (don't even get me started...).

All I'm saying is that merit has fallen by the wayside, and the colour of your skin, or your gender is now seemingly more important that what you can do.... and it's wrong.

I graduated from a Police Foundations program, almost every visible minority member of my class/female has been hired by a police department. All the white guys are frustrated and working low-paying blue collar jobs because no one will hire them.

I have a friend who went through the same program as I did, and applied to half of the police forces in the country.... he gave up after seeing some of the same female recruits and finding out that they weren't paying for all the testing that they had to do, and he was because he didn't qualify for the subsidies because he was a member of an over-represented segement of society.... he tried for 3 years to get a job as a cop. Eventually he got frustrated, gave up, and applied to the army. He's now a member of 3PPCLI.

He's a member of 3PPCLI because the army didn't care what colour he was. As it should be.
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Offline geo

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #135 on: December 13, 2005, 13:09:42 »
Dog,
agree 100% with you that forced diversity is defenitively not the way to go.
should be going entirely on competence and capabilities.
but, in some communities, the youths avoid the police 100% and the authorities pretty much just as much - because they don't trust them...
so a little bit of a helping hand to bring em out of the woodwork so we can talk to them makes a lot of sense

to me anyway

IMHO
Chimo!

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #136 on: December 13, 2005, 15:57:01 »
Dog,
agree 100% with you that forced diversity is defenitively not the way to go.
should be going entirely on competence and capabilities.
but, in some communities, the youths avoid the police 100% and the authorities pretty much just as much - because they don't trust them...
so a little bit of a helping hand to bring em out of the woodwork so we can talk to them makes a lot of sense

to me anyway

IMHO

Geo, the US army identified an untapped recruiting pool in the urban, non - white demographic too.

So they identified what those people were interested in, and they found SUVs, Rap Music, Pro sports and money.

As a result, they now drive US Army recruiting Humvees playing a specially commissioned Snoop Dogg rap tune to NCAA football and basketball games, where they tout the US Army's signing bonuses. Enlistment in these target groups has risen significantly.

What a concept - find what your target audience is interested in, then connect yourself to it. The recruiter's skin color is nearly a non - issue when this type of "selling the army" is taking place. 

Conversely, we here in Canada seem to believe that the ethnicity of the recruiter will attract more vis-mins - see the problem?
No leader was ever hated for being too hard, but a great many were for attempting to appear that way.

Offline BBa1gab

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #137 on: December 13, 2005, 16:25:20 »
I agree that placing quotas on visible-minority enrolment and valuing skin colour above capability is wrong. If your friend is more qualified than a female police officer, then he should have the job. However, that is not the argument here.

I am not calling on the Army to lower standards for visible minorities or females. I am only encouraging what I think is a good and harmless way to boost interest from under-represented groups. Personally, I would rather have a qualified candidate apply because he thinks of the Army as an inclusive institution from first-hand experience rather than because he thinks of it as a place to play with guns and get money, booze, fast cars and women (which are the main topics of rap music, no?).

Offline geo

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #138 on: December 13, 2005, 17:03:17 »
GO!!!!
would be interested in driving the Humvee, going to the Baseball, football & Basketball (+ hockey) games ... just to see how effective I'd be
Chimo!

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #139 on: December 13, 2005, 17:07:58 »
Geo, the US army identified an untapped recruiting pool in the urban, non - white demographic too.

So they identified what those people were interested in, and they found SUVs, Rap Music, Pro sports and money.

As a result, they now drive US Army recruiting Humvees playing a specially commissioned Snoop Dogg rap tune to NCAA football and basketball games, where they tout the US Army's signing bonuses. Enlistment in these target groups has risen significantly.

What a concept - find what your target audience is interested in, then connect yourself to it. The recruiter's skin color is nearly a non - issue when this type of "selling the army" is taking place. 

Conversely, we here in Canada seem to believe that the ethnicity of the recruiter will attract more vis-mins - see the problem?

Links? References? Stats? Pics?

I wonder how many white guys were in those special recruiting teams? Somehow I can't see a 30 year old white guy inspiring visible minority youth to join the Army just because he's driving a Humvee blaring Snoop Dog.


Offline geo

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2005, 17:23:13 »
Links? References? Stats? Pics?
I wonder how many white guys were in those special recruiting teams? Somehow I can't see a 30 year old white guy inspiring visible minority youth to join the Army just because he's driving a Humvee blaring Snoop Dog.
1.... he'd be wearing ear plugs :)

2. Does that mean I can't go to the Hockey & football games in a Humvee / G Wagon?
Chimo!

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #141 on: December 13, 2005, 22:58:40 »
Links? References? Stats? Pics?

I wonder how many white guys were in those special recruiting teams? Somehow I can't see a 30 year old white guy inspiring visible minority youth to join the Army just because he's driving a Humvee blaring Snoop Dog.

As a middle aged white guy yourself - how would you know?

http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/C-fraud/04-US-gov/2005/05C4-04-23-05-military-recruiters-targeting-minority-teens.html

http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/2029.cfm

http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/10/17/army/index_np.html?x

http://www.usarec.army.mil/6thbde/photos.htm

http://www.usarec.army.mil/6thbde/Photographs%20Page%20Files/North%20Bay/Mega%20DEP%20015.jpg

The presence of "recruiters of color" in the US is meaningless, as a far greater proportion of that country is vis-min, and as such, so is their military.

Over - representation of minorities is becoming a fact of life in the US military, leading to renewed calls for the draft.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #142 on: December 13, 2005, 23:19:54 »
So, the US Army identified that putting images, people and activities that young people of specific demographic groups could relate to was a successful recruiting tactic. But their success in doing so invalidates the presence of their visible minority recruiters simply because of that success. I still don't understand why that creates an argument that our own Recruiting System's attempt to initiate similar programs starting with selected recruiters (albeit on a much smaller scale) is inappropriate?

Offline Enfield

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #143 on: December 13, 2005, 23:45:36 »
This policy assumes that the primary identifier of a person walking into a CFRC is their race or gender. It assumes that seeing a person of similar appearance will make the CF more attractive.
I disagree - I would suspect that even more than race or gender, potential recruits will notice if the recruiter is fit, motivated, professional, and embodies the qualities that the candidate expects from the military and believes are important.

Are we also going to rig the CFRC's so that if a person of a one visible minority walks in, they talk to someone of the same minority?

Why are we trying to present an artificial image to the public? Why do we insist on representations that have nothing to do with the demographic reality of the CF?

Hundreds (thousands?) of Native Canadians are currently serving in the US military. Did they go south and join there because the US recruiter was native? Nope - probably has a lot to do with a professional, aggressive reputation tho.
I would suggest that the more we try to change to attract minority elements, the more we alienate everyone - most of all young males.

At a most basic and superficial level (and one proven by the advertising industry) putting an attractive person behind the desk is probably the most important factor. Perhaps thats the best way to go...
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #144 on: December 13, 2005, 23:56:40 »
Where was it stated that the plan was based on a presumption of a primary identifier of race/gender? The initial message talks about reinforcing the existing (prediminantly white male) recruiting staff. The backgrouder talks about task tailored employment of volunteers programmed by the CFRC.

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/recruiterforaday/index_e.aspx

Quote
"Recruiter for a Day" (RFD) is a volunteer program designed to reinforce the full-time CF recruiting team by drawing on other interested soldiers, sailors, airmen and women to assist in fulfilling the recruiting mission.

Quote
Volunteers will be contacted by a CF Recruiting Centre when their assistance is required for a specific recruiting event or activity.

So, if placing some visible minority recruiters in CFRCs and at selected events "alienates" young white males, doesn't that mean that staffing CFRCs and events predominantely with white males also alienates visible minority applicants?

Isn't there likely a balance between the two supposed extremes? Perhaps that is what the Recruiting System is attempting to achieve. Of course, we don't have precise demographics stats on current CFRC staffing, or how that compares to each of their local areas. If a potential applicant is more comfortable speaking to somone they identify with on that first contact basis, why shouldn't we work on that; whether the applicant is a white male or a black woman?

Without more facts it's a rhetorical discussion.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 01:09:44 by Michael O'Leary »

Offline geo

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #145 on: December 14, 2005, 12:09:35 »
... and it becomes one of:
white bashing; or
vis minority bashing
Chimo!

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #146 on: December 14, 2005, 23:04:10 »
Well, it's good to hear that affirmative action has been replaced with "reinforcement".

My unit is predominately white, male, and anglophone. I suppose we require "reinforcement" from women, francos and visible minorities so that the public won't realise what we are, after all, how shameful, and in need of fixing it must be for any trade to be indicative of the canadian public which is only 15% visible minorities.

I'm sure our recruiting numbers will surge once everyone who is'nt white sees a recruiter of the same color - after all - that's what they were waiting for - right?

 ::)
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #147 on: December 14, 2005, 23:37:31 »
Ok troops,

this one is shut down for now unti coller heads prevail...PM me if you have a good one

dileas

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Offline Dimsum

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Quote
Depending on the week and whether employment equity (or EE) targets are being met, the Canadian Forces periodically closes some of its approximately 100 occupations or trades to any applicants but women...

...and other members of EE groups...

More at link:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-canadian-forces-jobs-where-only-women-need-apply?fbclid=IwAR2RlBWzz1HspcE48f-vn0Tlut09bA3Mb6h8DTE4iDqBDvE1nxDkWPCrq2k&utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app#Echobox=1555682676

Edit to add a bit of content from the article, rather than only a link.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 09:49:12 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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I very sincerely hope someone challenges this as a violation of their Charter or Human rights.  And...to lie to applicants?

Sabourin agreed that in practice, it means that if a white male was applying for a job that was temporarily open only to EE candidates, he would be informed the occupation was full and other job possibilities discussed.

Asked if the man would be told the occupation was still open for members of EE groups, Sabourin said no.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 14:47:24 by Eye In The Sky »
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