Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 782377 times)

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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Well with the Liberals winning (for now) I think both the army and navy are fortunate as JSS will most likely go ahead. I am no naval architech but I was thinking of what could be done with HMCS Preserver. For those that don't know she is undergoing a 18 million dollar refit down here in Halifax. My idea is maybe convert her into a hospital ship. After another refit, which would I think have to be fairly extensive  to bring it in lines with some degree of health standards, it could be used in humanitarian missions, disaster relief and in the event of conflict as a true hospital ship. Thoughts?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline DJL

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Re: JSS
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2004, 15:19:31 »
Isn't that going to be the role of the "JSS"?

Also, would it be worth the cost to refit Preserver to keep her in service after the second JSS comes down the slips (2010?)? I also wonder, would the navy want to keep a single steamer around? Wouldn't you think that perhaps the money spent on converting  Preserver would be better spent on putting towards, dare I say, a fourth JSS? 

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2004, 15:32:10 »
It is but when its part of a Task Force, the JSS might not bee able to detach to conduct humanitarian missions. ALso JSS will have not be a purpose hospital ship like I am proposing a refitted Preserver to be. A 4th JSS would be handy but so would a dedicated hospital ship. I think it would be something the Canadian public wouold support as well buying into their opinion that we are peacekeepers first and soldiers second.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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Offline Sundborg

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Re: JSS
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2004, 11:26:29 »
Making the Preserver into a Hospital  Ship is something that Canada would probably agree on.  But when it all comes down to it, where is all this money going to come from?  We barely have enough as it is.  If Harper was elected I could see a few more dollars coming this way and put into something like that; but, since we still have Martin, I doubt we'll get enough funding for all these extra little projects.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2004, 11:50:50 »
Agreed just wishful thinking lol.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline Code5

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Re: JSS
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2004, 20:56:51 »
Out of curosity, how long would preserver be able to function as a hospital ship?  By the time the JSS come around she'll be in her 40s, right?  Would it be worth the extra money to refit her just so she could be a hospital ship for 10 years or so (assuming of course she'll be kept into her 50s). 

Would the Navy and Forces in general be able man her?  I, may be mistaken, but isn't the CF facing a Medical Officer shortage?




Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2004, 14:35:12 »
The refit she is undergoing right now is supposedly adding 15 yrs to her life but you are correct. As for medical personnel you could always send personnel for 1 CFH or the Field Ambs or any of the base hospitals. One from there 2 from here...and its not like she would sail all the time. AGain it was wistful thinking on my part for a capability that we don't have and should invest in that would be palatable to the Canadian public.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline Code5

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Re: JSS
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2004, 16:38:18 »
Its a good idea, and i'm sure the public would go for it too... hopefully.

How much would it cost to build a new hospital ship anyway?  Would it be acceptable for the navy to use hospital ships that are built to civilian specs (is that the proper term?)?

Also, how many other western nations operate hospital ships? 

Sorry for all the questions :)

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2004, 16:51:41 »
Its a good idea, and i'm sure the public would go for it too... hopefully.

How much would it cost to build a new hospital ship anyway?   Would it be acceptable for the navy to use hospital ships that are built to civilian specs (is that the proper term?)?

Also, how many other western nations operate hospital ships?  

Sorry for all the questions :)

Its not even in the works but it would be a nice addition to the fleet.
Not sure on the price but a lot are converted tankers and civillian specs or mercantile specs is correct.
I will let you know tomorrow if thats ok?
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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NavyGrunt

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Re: JSS
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2004, 16:53:54 »
Maybe we could tie some of the old pig boat minesweepers togther and make it into a floating CF disco/med boat.  :o

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2004, 11:43:34 »
Its a good idea, and i'm sure the public would go for it too... hopefully.

How much would it cost to build a new hospital ship anyway?   Would it be acceptable for the navy to use hospital ships that are built to civilian specs (is that the proper term?)?

Also, how many other western nations operate hospital ships?  

Sorry for all the questions :)

I did some checking for you and while a lot of nations have some decent medical facilities afloat(usually on carriers, assault ships or other auxillaries)...only the US has full fledged floating hospitals (of NATO)....the Mercy class (the US has 2) are 894 ft long have 1000 beds and carry approx 820 medical personnel.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline Sundborg

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Re: JSS
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2004, 14:00:24 »
Its a good idea, and i'm sure the public would go for it too... hopefully.

How much would it cost to build a new hospital ship anyway?   Would it be acceptable for the navy to use hospital ships that are built to civilian specs (is that the proper term?)?

Also, how many other western nations operate hospital ships?  

Sorry for all the questions :)

 :o   Do we even have that many medical personnel in the CF?

I did some checking for you and while a lot of nations have some decent medical facilities afloat(usually on carriers, assault ships or other auxillaries)...only the US has full fledged floating hospitals (of NATO)....the Mercy class (the US has 2) are 894 ft long have 1000 beds and carry approx 820 medical personnel.
Don't look back; stay out of the mud.

Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: JSS
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2004, 05:16:19 »
I heard a bad rumour stating that the Preserver would replace one of the proposed JSS, and we would only buy two new ships.  I sure hope that this is wrong, but seeing as how we'll be waiting for a few years for the JSS, I'm sure the Preserver has lots of sea time ahead of her!
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2004, 05:37:33 »
While things can change thankfully that's what it is a bad rumour, Lance.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
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Offline canuck101

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Re: JSS
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2004, 23:56:50 »
instead of the JSS we should get three Patino Class AOR's and two Schelde Enforcer LPD the 11000 Ton versions. I would think it would be cheaper but i am not the liberals.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2004, 07:59:37 »
It would make sense to have a seperate AOR and logistic ship classes but in the long run it supposedly saves money. With 2 seperate classes thats two different training programs set up not to mention different spare parts.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline canuck101

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Re: JSS
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2004, 00:22:36 »
what is the crew size going to be for the three new JSS ships.  If  we have one out just for refueling and supplies it will be half empty. We the government that we have they will never pick missions for the navy to use them to there fullest.

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: JSS
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2004, 05:29:38 »
The crew size won't change for whatever mission. Basic sailing requirements and minimum manning stay the same.
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline Green Lid

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JSS Amphib Capability
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2004, 22:25:55 »
Hold on a minute!!-If my memory serves me right didn't the government just announce,well last year, that they were going to commission some new support ships to support heliborne/amphibious operations.
If that is correct then it flys in the face of any general trend towards cuts in spending such as is being discussed here ???

Offline Code5

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2004, 22:44:13 »
Yeah, the JSS was announced a few months ago. 
and of course they can always drag their feet on the procurment like they did with the Seakings or they could just forget that we even need new AORs and pretend that the current ones can go on and on and on and on.


Offline whiskey601

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2004, 23:01:51 »
Out of curosity, does any navy have any large deck-mounted guns?

As noted by Ex-Dragoon, Canada relies upon small diameter weapons on her naval vessels. I think Peru, of all countries, may hold claim to the largest naval guns right now, 6" twin mounts on some old cruisers. I'm not sure of the current operational status of those ships, though.    I think, but am not totally sure anymore, that the USN's proposed Littoral Combat Ship will mount a 155 mm long range naval gun which will fire precision guided ammunition at a fairly high rate of fire and out to a fair distance. Kind of a navalized Crusader system. I believe this weapon is more of a concept than a reality right now, but as I said, I'm no longer sure of the status of that weapon, or indeed the project itself. [very expensive!!]   

Green Lid: you are referring to the JSS, and without saying much more, just look at the CPF 57mm thread, where there is a little information [ok, speculation on my part,"information" on Ex-D's part] about the proposed vessel.    The navy website also has some information as well: http://www.navy.dnd.ca. Look for the JSS article and come to your own conclusions. A vessel of similar dimensions and displacement, but different role, [it is in fact a more sophisticated vessel] costs about 955 million US dollars to build.    That works out to a lot of Canadian Tire coupons for the Mastercraft do-it-yourself JSS!!      :)

Cheers ...

   

Offline Green Lid

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2004, 23:46:10 »
Has a thread for discussions on the JSS been opened in any of the forums, apart from the CPF 57 mm thread.


Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2004, 23:57:53 »
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,16528.msg71338.html#msg71338

Try this one on for size O Ye of the Green Beanie.  I see you are Army but Army with a Green Lid?  Any actual time in troopships and comments you might like to relate?

Cheers.  ;)
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Offline Green Lid

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2004, 20:45:43 »
Sorry it took so long to reply, it was close to bedtime here on the East Coast when I sent my last post.

Indeed I did wear a green lid at one time even though I was in the Army, The Commando Brigade has soldiers(Engineers,Gunners etc) as well as marines. I do have some experience of Heli and amphibious ops from ships. Do the Canadian forces have this capability or is that the intention of the JSS.

Cheers


Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Loss of the 280s
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2004, 21:18:28 »
No such capability at this time Green Lid.     As to whether the JSS is to have such a capability, significant or otherwise seems to be very much up for debate.  

The first two links below are from the Government

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1346
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1347

This link is from one of our universities that hosts a discussion group on the Canadian Forces.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1347

The ship is designed as fleet oiler and replenishment vessel that can also support a joint HQ, a hospital, carry up to 300 LSVWs (Similar in size to the one tonne LandRover or the Pinzgauer) some number of helicopters (Medium if we have them) and possibly a couple of hundred troops.     3 vessels to be bought at about $2.1 billion dollars, or roughly 1 billion quid.

Your thoughts could be interesting.

Cheers.

Edit:  As Ex-Dragoon points out below I left the impression the vessel is only to carry LSVWs.  That is equivalent space.  It actually has up to 1500 lane-meters of covered vehicle space and 1000 lane-meters for weather deck stowage of TEUs.

Sorry for the confusion.  Thanks Ex-D.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2004, 21:34:09 by Kirkhill »
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