Author Topic: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]  (Read 89505 times)

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Offline lauralaner

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2011, 19:30:09 »
I do understand that early promotion is a privilege, however wouldn't it be counter-intuitive that I was in line to receive my early promotion due to good performance and that now that I should not receive it would be that my time off while having a baby would be a negative consequence of that? Though personally I do not mind, I'm happy to get back to work, regardless of promotion or not.
The point I'm getting at is that they are saying that I will not hit the requisite 60 months of service, because it is as though my entire 12 months does not count.  So once I hit the actual 60 months, it would only be 48 months. 

I did check the CFAO's and there isn't any regulation that clearly states the correlation between LWOP and promotion in regards to Mata/Pata.  I do believe that there my have been a Canforgen regarding this but at the moment I don't have access.

Thanks for your reply, I will double check the CFAO's in case I missed something.

Offline airmich

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2011, 21:33:11 »
Here is the DAOD for Maternity/Parental Leave.  It has a bunch of references at the end of it that may help you in your search too.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5001-2-eng.asp
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2011, 15:05:16 »
have you talked to your clerk?  Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.
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Offline MJP

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2011, 15:18:54 »
Just so you know the pata/mata leave does not delay your promotion otherwise I would be screwed (3 pata periods in 6 years and 2 promotions). The time still counts as time served for promotions and thankfully pensions (which you will have to make the payments when you return to work).   Don't have the time right now to search for the regs.  You are not supposed to be punished for having a child.

Agreed on the the time still counting and not holding back a promotion when it is due.  Being accelerated though is not protected and is entirely up to the CoC regardless of how counter intuitive it may be to the OP.

 For the OP, I wouldn't hold my breathe for the promotion but just go back to the high standard of work that you had before.  That speaks volumes of a soldier and  the promotion will come.  Hopefully if you are one of the good ones, sooner rather later. (Don't read too much into it, I am not insinuating that you aren't a good one.  I just think hard work should be rewarded)
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Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2012, 16:09:59 »
I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around... I went on parental leave in August 2011 and as of Sept 2011, I hit my 4yrs in and was eligible for my Cpls. I came back to work in May 2012 and received my promotion in June. I have received my pay statement for End July and was retro paid for June and July, however, I am being told that because I took parental leave, I am not due for the retro pay as of Sept.

Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, however... I have a female friend who joined the same day as me and we did BMQ together. She took parental leave for the same time frame as I did (Aug to May). She just got her retro pay dated as of Sept 2011, resulting in a VERY large pay difference.

My unit is telling me that my retro pay is only to the 1st of June... Why would that be??? And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Thanks for any help on this!



aesop081

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2012, 16:17:39 »
And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Have you considered that you're friend's case might be the one who was done wrong, not you.

I would find out the regulations before i drag your friend in.

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2012, 16:21:02 »
Yes, I have considered that. That would be a very last resort. I mainly want to see in some form of written documentation as to where they came up with the information.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2012, 16:29:59 »
Sounds like your promotion effective date was labelled as 1 Jun 12, which is what your unit backdated you to. Could be an issue with the paperwork not being completed properly, or the career manager setting the wrong effective date.

"But s/he got this, why can't I?" normally doesn't work in any OR I've seen...

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2012, 16:39:23 »
I'm aware that the "But s/he got this, why can't I?" deal doesn't really hold up well...

I just came across this bit of info from CBI Chapter 204 - PAY OF OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS, that may be appropriate to my situation:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
204.015(4) (Exception) Qualifying service for pay increments does not include:

any service prior to a continuous interruption of more than five years during which no service designated in paragraph (2) was performed, unless the member during the period of the interruption has maintained relevant skills or qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff, or any officer designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff, to be of military value;
any service that is not declared on enrolment;
any service prior to the date of a promotion to a higher substantive rank, other than a period of continuous service in an acting rank at the end of which the officer or non-commissioned member is promoted to the same substantive rank; or

(TB, effective 22 June 2006)
any period of forfeiture imposed under QR&O 208.30 (Forfeitures - Officers and Non-Commissioned Members) or QR&O 208.31 (Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations - When No Service Rendered), or leave without pay other than a period granted under QR&O 16.26 (Maternity Leave) or QR&O 16.27 (Parental Leave).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this last paragraph and the part which states "other than", I believe this is the proper document for them to make the required change.

Anyone believe otherwise?

Offline MJP

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2012, 16:48:31 »
In addition to the CBI you pulled up, you need to read;

DAOD 5001-2, Maternity and Parental Benefits;

(QR&Os) Volume I - Chapter 16: Leave; and

A-PP-005-LVE/AG-00, Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual.

Then decide if you have a case.  Other people's experiences is, as other have pointed out not valid.  What the Regs say is.  Dig in bud, do some reading and feel free to ask any clarifying questions you have. 
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Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2012, 17:09:41 »
Thank you for the links!  :)

Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?

aesop081

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2012, 17:11:54 »
Thank you for the links!  :)

Any idea if there is any 1 type of documentation (ie. CFAO, DAOD, QR&O or CBI) which over-rules another? Meaning if I take in my copy of CBI Chapter 204 and try to show them section 204.015(4) (see prev post), are they going to come back at me with something that "trumps" it?

CBI 204.015 is about pay increments. You are asking about parental and a promotion.

See the problem here ?

Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2012, 17:23:38 »
So, is this to mean the CBI I have will be very little to no use for my situation? Sorry for my minimal knowledge on all of this, but there is next to nothing for publications regarding retroactive pay and parental leave... I'm trying to find what seems to be pertinent info.

aesop081

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2012, 17:26:01 »
So, is this to mean the CBI I have will be very little to no use for my situation?

204.015 has nothing to do with your situation.

Offline Strike

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2012, 17:26:40 »
http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-04_e.asp

This should help.

Basically, the CO has to sign off on your promotion.  If they don't they have to provide you with a reason.

Quote
PROMOTION AUTHORITY
4. Subject to paragraph 5, the approving authority for:

promotion to Pte(B), Pte(T), acting lacking/corporal (AL/Cpl), acting/corporal (provisional) (A/Cpl(P)) and Corporal (Cpl) is the member's commanding officer (CO);

Quote
ACTION BY COMMANDING OFFICER RESPECTING PROMOTION
11. For promotion to Cpl, AL/Cpl or A/Cpl(P) and for nominations to accelerated promotions and from acting to substantive rank, form CF 743A, UER (Unit Employment Record) Qualification Record Sheet, shall be completed and distributed as described in Annex G.

12. A recommendation by a CO for promotion, or for qualification leading to promotion, shall be construed to mean that the member has, in all respects, demonstrated the necessary potential, and that the CO is prepared to retain and develop the member in the higher rank.

13. When a CO has recommended the promotion of a member in a Personal Evaluation Record (PER) or by any other means, it is imperative that any change in circumstances that could affect the member's suitability for promotion be reported immediately to NDHQ/DGPCOR by message.

14. When a promotion to Pte(T) or Cpl is denied, the CO shall inform NDHQ/DGPCOR of the circumstances and specify the intended period of delay, and inform the member of the action taken.


WRT LWOP:

Quote
LEAVE WITHOUT PAY
24. LWOP granted on enrolment shall not count as qualifying time for promotion. Effective 1 Jun 86, all other LWOP of 120 days duration or less shall count for promotion. LWOP of a duration of greater than 120 days may count as qualifying service in total or in part as specified by the approving authority of the leave. When a promotion instruction contains the name of a member who is on LWOP, the CO shall advise NDHQ/DPCAOR of the circumstances including commencement and termination dates. NDHQ/DPCAOR will advise the CO whether the promotion will stand, will be cancelled, or will be deferred.


Hope this helps a bit.
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Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2012, 17:51:07 »
Thank you Strike!

Just to be clear though, I have already received the promotion... it's just the retro pay I'm trying to get situated.

If I understand correctly, where the leave days were more than 120 consecutive days, it's up to NDHQ/DPCAOR to decide if those days will count as qualifying service.

My first child was also born since I have been in and there has been no repercussions from that... So, why this is such a big issue, I'm not sure. I've never had any disciplinary issues or medical restrictions... It's just a little boggling.



Offline Strike

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2012, 17:54:39 »
Thank you Strike!

Just to be clear though, I have already received the promotion... it's just the retro pay I'm trying to get situated.


Yes, but the time in all goes towards promotion dates, EPZ and all that noz.  What you need to do is ask why your promotion date was delayed to when it was.  If it wasn't the, quite simply, your pay should be back-dated.  Read through all of the CFAO in the link provided.  If it's DWAN only then let me know and I'll PM you the whole thing.
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Offline Greenmachine2517

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2012, 20:40:26 »
Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2012, 21:18:52 »
Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.

Won't be able to do it until Tuesday now. I'm on leave 'till then.
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2012, 02:15:43 »
I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around...

Whaaaaat?  The run around from an orderly room? 

I knew I read a thread a while ago that sort of dealt with the same situation.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=103719.0   

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2012, 07:05:23 »
Hey, thanks for the link, but it is on the DWAN only. I would greatly appreciate it if you'd PM it to me.

Do you have a Forces network/email account?
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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2012, 14:21:37 »
If I understand correctly, where the leave days were more than 120 consecutive days, it's up to NDHQ/DPCAOR to decide if those days will count as qualifying service.

Promotion to Cpl is based on Qualifying Service.  When you're on Maternity or Parental LWOP, the time counts towards the calculation of your EPZ date (ie; the date you are eligible for promotion to Cpl).  However, the effective date of promotion CANNOT be while you are on LWOP.  Therefore, if you reached 4 years of service while on LWOP, then the effective date of your promotion to the rank of Cpl would be the first day you return to work.
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Offline Strike

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2012, 20:10:21 »
Promotion to Cpl is based on Qualifying Service.  When you're on Maternity or Parental LWOP, the time counts towards the calculation of your EPZ date (ie; the date you are eligible for promotion to Cpl).  However, the effective date of promotion CANNOT be while you are on LWOP.  Therefore, if you reached 4 years of service while on LWOP, then the effective date of your promotion to the rank of Cpl would be the first day you return to work.

I don't recall reading any of that.  Do you have a reference that you could share?
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Offline jeffb

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2012, 08:07:52 »
It is also possible that your friend was advance promoted. She may not even be aware of that as the paperwork does not involve her. The only indication that a member would have that they have been advance promoted would be on parade. Different person, different situation.
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Offline wesleyd

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Re: Leave Policy – Maternity / Parental (MATA/PATA) [Merged]
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2012, 06:47:57 »
I am trying to get some straight answers from my orderly room, but it feels as if I'm getting the run-around... I went on parental leave in August 2011 and as of Sept 2011, I hit my 4yrs in and was eligible for my Cpls. I came back to work in May 2012 and received my promotion in June. I have received my pay statement for End July and was retro paid for June and July, however, I am being told that because I took parental leave, I am not due for the retro pay as of Sept.

Normally, this wouldn't be an issue, however... I have a female friend who joined the same day as me and we did BMQ together. She took parental leave for the same time frame as I did (Aug to May). She just got her retro pay dated as of Sept 2011, resulting in a VERY large pay difference.

My unit is telling me that my retro pay is only to the 1st of June... Why would that be??? And if she were to bring a copy of her MPRR with her to my orderly room with me so they can see her promotion effective date, should they not be required to make that change on mine?

Thanks for any help on this!

Get your promotion message, the effective date is when you will get paid from. Not when you were eligible. I am in a similar situation waiting for my WO,  Because of where I am posted I have been passed over and will not be promoted until late fall, even though I should have been made in April I will not get back pay for 7 months as my effective date will be in Nov sometime. Just because you are eligible does not mean you are guaranteed to get promoted the day of. Way back in the late 80's early 90's I remember guys that were eligible for promotion for three years but did not get promoted because there were no promotions. When they did get promoted they were back paid to the effective date, which was usually a month or so, not three years.