Author Topic: Diabetics in the CF  (Read 69154 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2010, 19:36:15 »
To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.

I wanted to be a Pilot.  I am V3.  Is that discrimination against me?  Hell, yes!  And for good reason.  I can accept the fact that I am no medically fit to be a CF Pilot.  Is it discrimination to not allow a person confined to a wheelchair into the CF as an Infantryman?  Yes it is.  For good reason.  The Charter of Human Rights recognizes these facts. 








Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit. :)

At the end of your 18 hour shifts, you get to go home.  Not so on a six to ten month Tour to some hellhole on the other side of the world.
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Offline GAP

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2010, 20:04:03 »
No one is saying you are unfit, please pay attention to that.

I do notice one glaring issue with what this statement says - service rig - are you in the western oil patch? Because my friend, I can tell you from years of experience that some of those guys would take someone with no arms and legs if they could prove able to lean on the brake handle. And I have also personally[i/] witnessed diabetic related emergencies on those rigs...and it ain't effing pretty when you're back the Kotcho or Chinchaga.

If you read carefully you'll see that no one is trying to give anyone else a rough ride. They are simply stating facts as they stand now. Chill out.

Lindhout ....pay attention to someone who is an SME of rigs....he's been there, done that.

and, to date, nobody is questioning your fitness now, but the CF has to deal with the future probabilities and how to handle them....

my  :2c:
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Offline Northalbertan

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2010, 20:08:24 »
I do notice one glaring issue with what this statement says - service rig - are you in the western oil patch? Because my friend, I can tell you from years of experience that some of those guys would take someone with no arms and legs if they could prove able to lean on the brake handle. And I have also personally[i/] witnessed diabetic related emergencies on those rigs...and it ain't effing pretty when you're back the Kotcho or Chinchaga.

As an aside to the main topic, things have changed a wee bit out in "the patch" at least rig wise.  They are a little more discriminating about who they hire nowadays.  I have to agree on the diabetic emergency in the bush though, I have also seen it pop up.  You can't do anything about it if they don't tell you though.  Which is why I agree with pre-screening and also why the CF does the medical and has the standards they do.  They can't always look at the rosy picture.  What happens if you are in a third world &%$$ hole and don't have access to your meds?  The military is a TEAM, and if you can't play with the rest of your team because you're in the middle of a diabetic emergency you are letting them down and possibly putting them in danger because you can't be there beside them. 

My  :2c:.  For what it's worth.

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Offline Scott

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2010, 20:29:54 »
As an aside to the main topic, things have changed a wee bit out in "the patch" at least rig wise.  They are a little more discriminating about who they hire nowadays.  I have to agree on the diabetic emergency in the bush though, I have also seen it pop up. 

There's the very crux of my argument towards screening proven:

I worked in Asia/the Mid East in 2008 and no way would my employer have sent someone with a legitimate, ongoing medical issue over there. Anaphylactics were included as well...and I never saw one damned bee or a peanut in my three months across (!) Point is, we couldn't plan for everything so we choose to limit who we send. Same goes for the CF but on a much larger scale.

Back to "the patch" Yeah, if you thunder in on the lease in Two Lakes you have a better shot than if you do so on a ship or in a FOB or in a desert exploration camp.

Simple.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 20:37:27 by Scott »
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Offline medicineman

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2010, 22:11:26 »
To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.

Hate to tell you this, but the Supreme Court of Canada upheld the right of the Canadian Forces to discriminate based on medical/physical conditions or limitations.  We have standards there for a reason - in this case, you can't stop to eat in a long advance to contact and subsequent shoot out because just you're hypoglycemic...to put it another way, you wouldn't be doing anyone any favours if you had a seizure because your BG was in you shoes, in fact you'd be putting your fireteam partner, your TCCC provider, section 2ic and most important of all, ME at risk to look after you with all the bullets flying about.  I've said it many times before but will do it again - "It's not personal, it's just business" so please do everyone a favour and get off the soap box - it'll just slip out from underneath you like it has so many others I've dealt with over the years with this and many other problems.  BTW, physical fitness does not equate medical fitness - so sending the doc out to the rig will just give them a sight seeing tour.

Maybe in a few years there will be a magic bullet that will fix everything up for you - if that happens, I'm sure we'll be able to welcome you with open arms, but until then, that's the way it is.

MM
MM

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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2010, 23:20:46 »
To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.

Drag your MO's out to my service rig for a few 18 hour shifts, then let them tell me im unfit. :)

Wanna play that game, eh?

IDDM is PCat at G403 for a damn good reason. That being your "rights" are negated by your DKA evoked death.
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2010, 00:57:07 »
why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes. In 1989 a type 1 diabetic was cleared for flight as a search and rescue pilot in CF. Yes he was already a member we diagnosed in 2007, but the fact he was allowed and no issues came forth shows again your ignorance. There is no reason type 1 diabetes should be a blanket ban, there is many diabetics who would have no problems at all performing their duties. Continous glucose monitoring eliminates risk of sudden incapacitation, and IF somebody is stuck without medication, the only risks are LONG TERM. Every case of diabetes is different and should be handled as such, people like you are pathetic

Pi$$ poor attitude pal, but your enthusiasm is noted, however don't throw the discrimination card - it won't apply here. I agree with you in certain jobs other than Defence and some 000 (LEO) professions, where risks would be limited perhaps, and conditions are more suitable for a diabetic, so don't go singling yourself out, we are not out to get you.

Aside from being a cook or whatever similar trade you have used as an example, we are all soldiers first, and have common basic military skills (weapons handling, fieldcraft, etc), not just peeling potatoes and preparing meals.

Going back to my tour in Iraq for example, our cooks not only had to perform their trade duties, but also had to do strong point duty, sentry duty, and other taskings in outragously extreme conditions, and often were outside the wire in the shooter role on our ASLAVs, in the thick of it, like us all. Infact both our cooks were from 3 RAR (Para) and we fullly qualified paratroopers with previous tours. Serious 'hard corps' dudes.

There is such a thing called Murphy's Law, and it happens all too frequently in the real world. There is no room for anyone with potential dangerous medical issues which they easily might become a liability (you would be one of these), and make others a liabliity to look after them should things go pear shaped (and they do/did). try doing some of your continious gluecose monitering in the back of a bouncing ASLAV @ 60kph in the dust and heat when your half out of a hatch, wind blowing, you got protective gear on, and you must watch your arcs with your weapon for hours on end. Get my drift? Your lack of concentration can cost lives, even your own.

Best of luck in your future endeavours.  There is no need to get narky at anyone here who is just spelling out the facts for you. Sometimes reality sucks.

My 2 bob.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 01:14:43 by Carcharodon Carcharias »
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2010, 17:40:52 »
why exactly do you have this hate for diabetics? how quickly you judge all diabetics shows just how ignorant you are. If you have done any research you would know there is a few people in CF and US army with type 1 diabetes. In 1989 a type 1 diabetic was cleared for flight as a search and rescue pilot in CF. Yes he was already a member we diagnosed in 2007, but the fact he was allowed and no issues came forth shows again your ignorance. There is no reason type 1 diabetes should be a blanket ban, there is many diabetics who would have no problems at all performing their duties. Continous glucose monitoring eliminates risk of sudden incapacitation, and IF somebody is stuck without medication, the only risks are LONG TERM. Every case of diabetes is different and should be handled as such, people like you are pathetic

You do realize that you started your contribution to this forum by spouting off in response to an almost four year old post, don't you?  While that is not necessarily looked down upon here, the tone of your original post (in my view, at least) could be considered abusive or trolling; my suggestion is that you dial it back a notch.

While you may have personal experience with diabetes, it is patently obvious you have little to no knowledge of the CF or how its medical category system is applied to those with diabetes (or any disease).  By ranting off in all directions, especially when insulting members who are knowledgeable (because it is part of their job) you will accomplish little on these means other than gain a less than admirable reputation.  This forum, while not always the epitome of decorum, does place a greater emphasis on reasoned debate argument than is often found elsewhere on the net.  Perhaps someone should direct you to the "rainbow" post. 

Your suggestion that, since a CF pilot was retained on flying status following diagnosis as a type 1 diabetic, applicants with diabetes can be enrolled with no problem demonstrates your lack of understanding of what military members do and how medical categories are applied.  Contrary to your statement that there were no issues with this unusual retention of a diabetic pilot, there were several.  Again, you take semi-knowledge of one fact and extrapolate it far beyond your arcs. 

The pilot in question enrolled in the CF in 1982 and had no medical issues at that time.  He completed  flying training (rotary) in  1982.  In April 1987 he presented with symptoms and was subsequently diagnosed with type 1 diabetes.  He was initially treated with insulin and was entered in a diabetic study group at UWO.  From the time that he presented with symptoms he was grounded.  Two years after diagnosis (1989) he was returned to “restricted” flying status, “to fly with or as co-pilot”, and had specific geographic restrictions to fixed bases where physician services were available.  He was to have specialist and aeromedical follow-up every 3 months.  Following his return to flying he was assigned to a SAR squadron flying Labradors.  In 1991, he was again grounded for 6 months but returned to flying duties (with the same restrictions as before) in 1992.    His reported performance as a pilot was noted as “outstanding” and was awarded the Medal of Bravery in 1991 for a rescue mission in adverse conditions.
You can download the complete document from which I gathered this information as a PDF here

While the details above were extracted from an article in a 1995 journal, the following excerpt from a 2008 article mentions a more current sitrep of the pilot in question.  (I’ve redacted his name for this forum)
http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/2008/06/26/5807/flying-on-insulin/
Quote
The very first pilot in the world with type 1 to get his medical certification and, therefore, his pilot’s license reinstated was a Canadian military pilot, Capt. ***** *******.  ***** was diagnosed with diabetes in 1987. After two years of monitoring and individual assessments of his ability to control his diabetes, a very forward thinking Dr. Gary Gray, with the help of *****’s endocrinologist, Dr. John Dupre, authorized ***** to return to flying duties. In August of 1989, ***** moved to Summerside PEI and returned to active flying status at 413 Sqn. ***** is presently working as a Major in Esquimalt, BC, where he is still licensed to fly. He will be retiring from the Canadian Forces in July of 2010.

And it has been far from a given that this pilot was able to continue his military career as is noted in this excerpt from a letter he sent to then Minister of Health Allan Rock is support of islet research.

http://islet.org/33.htm#GrenkowToRock
Quote
. . . And even a well controlled diabetic like myself finds the sword of Damocles hanging over one's head when employment issues like "Universality of Service" come into play. Even though I am cleared to fly as a Search and Rescue pilot in the CF actions are being taken through a Career Review Board to release me because I can not be supposedly deployed for more than 30 days. This is rated on the shelf life of opened unrefridgerated insulin.

Not knowing this officer personally I can only surmise (based on the effort and support that must have come from both his chain of command as well as aeromedical staff) that he is truly an outstanding individual, in terms of professional ability as well as personality.  In most cases, plugs are not kept if they fall below minimum medical standard.  In the words of a friend of mine who was in the career shop “if someone pi$$es me off, the only effect would be similar to pi$$ing into the wind – it’s their trouser legs that get wet”.

I understand why the CF says what they do about diabetics, but I don't think they are right in their judgment. Keep a surplus of insulin (mine stores for 2 years), . . . . Sure they couldn't be ready to deploy in a matter of minutes... .

If you understand, then be prepared to offer a knowledgeable analysis of which occupations could accept enrollees with Type 1 diabetes.

Does your opened insulin store for two years with refrigeration?  Who manufactures it?

More than once during my career I have been subject to movement on very, very short notice, in fact I once received my notice of a posting (Gagetown to Edmonton) and had to be on the road in three hours. (talk about clearing unit and base quickly - only thing I turned in was my weapon EIS)

To me this is insulting and raises many discrimination concerns.

Again, your lack of knowledge is showing.  Former members of the CF have already tried to claim that they were discriminated against due to them being released from the CF after being diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes.  CHRTs have upheld the CF's position.  You may want to review the following tribunal decisions.  They may enlighten you as to the process that occurs before a serving member is released after failing to meet medical standards.  I've included a passage from "Gaetz" that discusses the some numbers of members who have been released because of insulin dependant diabetes.

Gaetz v. Canadian Armed Forces (a 1988 decision)
http://chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=105&lg=_e&isruling=0
Quote
“On the same page Captain Martin also indicated that the Career Medical Review Board had cases which came before it dealing with members suffering from diabetes and Captain Martin’s testimony was to the effect that there were 34 such cases since 1985, and he indicated that of those 35 cases, 14 persons were released and that these were insulin- dependent diabetics requiring daily injections. Five of the remaining persons were retained to compulsary retirement age, which was going to occur 18 to 24 months down the road and such persons were retained for annuity purposes. Another 4 were retained with restrictions and in those cases the medical prognosis was that if proper dieting took place and proper regimented exercise was accomplished, then good control could be maintained by oral medication. Captain Martin also stressed that he was not certain as to whether or not any of the persons retained were insulin- dependent diabetics in the sense that they required insulin injections. In cross- examination by Mr. Duval as to the type of career restrictions imposed upon the four Members who are retained by the Forces after having their medical catagory downgraded by the Career Medical Review Board, commencing at line 5 on page 230. Answer: "They would be career restrictions, which means that at whatever rank level they were at at that time is where they will stay. They will not progress beyond that rank level. For illustration, we use a corporal."

Brown v. Canadian Armed Forces (a 1995 decision)
http://www.chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=222&lg=_e&isruling=0


At this point someone is probably thinking "sum up" - so . . .

You could continue ranting all you want that diabetics should be enrolled into the military (though preferably on another forum) but it would not change the reality that there are valid reasons for precluding individuals with that medical condition from joining.  Yes, there have been those who have continued to serve after being diagnosed, but in reality not that many and only when an analysis of that individual’s medical condition ‘and’ his potential for providing further ‘above average’ service indicates it is to the CF’s benefit to retain him.  It is also probable that retention and accomodation of such individuals has been less likely in the past few years for the simple reason that we’ve been at war and need those who can deploy to a combat area.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 17:58:13 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline MARS

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2010, 18:03:32 »

At this point someone is probably thinking "sum up" - so . . .


Not at all.  An excellent post.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2010, 18:10:01 »
Not at all.  An excellent post.

And enough to put a nice large period on what everyone has been saying.

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Offline dmh100

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2011, 08:24:54 »
Is having type 1 diabetes a barrier to joining the reserves? I am aware you can't join the regular forces if you have diabetes, but from what I have heard it isn't a problem with the reserves. Can anyone confirm this?

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2011, 08:30:05 »
I'm pretty sure the Regs and Reserves have the exact same medical requirements.  Search around the forums, I'm sure theres info on diabetes and wanting to join the CF.  You can also call your local CFRC and ask them about it.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2011, 08:37:23 »

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2011, 17:52:13 »
COMMON ENROLLMENT STANDARD

I hope I don't have to clarify!
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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2013, 20:22:16 »
I have read several threads about diabetes so please forgive me for adding one more.
I have recently been tested and my A1C level is 6.1. I am about .3 away from being a diabetic. My next test is scheduled for the end of Jan.
I am unsure of how the CF views members with Diabetes. Are they released right away?
If so how long would the process normally take?

Looking forward to your learned responses

Offline medicineman

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2013, 13:52:27 »
I have read several threads about diabetes so please forgive me for adding one more.
I have recently been tested and my A1C level is 6.1. I am about .3 away from being a diabetic. My next test is scheduled for the end of Jan.
I am unsure of how the CF views members with Diabetes. Are they released right away?
If so how long would the process normally take?

Looking forward to your learned responses


Depends on who you are, what you do, how long you have in, and how you're being treated and are responding to treatment.  Type 1 and 2 dibetics are placed on categories with Geographic and some Occupational restrictions.  Usually Type 1's are edged out and Type 2's not needing inuslin to manage are kept aboard.  If you're given a PCat that makes you unfit life in the CF, the time it takes for that to go through the process can take upwards of a year.  I'm willing to bet as a Type 2, you'd be on a stricter category at first until you've shown you're under control and then likely assigned a PCat  that has some Geo restrictions.  If you're a flyer (I see you're with 403 Sqn), I'm not up to speed on the Flight Surg Guidelines regarding DM2 and Air Factors, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

Hope that helps a bit.

MM

Edited for a spelling oopy.
MM

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Offline ArmyDoc

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2013, 17:17:10 »
To add, every patient is assessed on a case-by-case basis. Generally, insulin-dependence is the go/no go gauge. If you can maintain good control of your sugars with diet, exercise and drugs if needed, you will likely be retained. Once the insulin needle touches skin, generally you will be released.

However, since you are not yet at the threshold for diabetes, why not take control of your diet, exercise and weight and try to get back to normal glycemic control and avoid both the potential medical complications as well as the potential career implications?  All is not lost!

Offline kev.

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2013, 18:27:20 »
I am making changes to my diet and exercise but I also am keenly aware that diabetes is strong on both sides of the family.

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2017, 16:24:54 »
Good Evening,

Hope, you are all doing well. Forgive me, if this has been asked a thousand times before but i am hoping that anyone with direct experience can share some knowledge. I have worked a number of jobs in the transportation sector in the past 3 years. I am 27 years old and a type 2 (non insulin) dependent pre diabetic. I have a BMI that was on the healthy side when i was diagnosed but it was borderline. However, i do exercise and have managed to improve that & my condition considerably. From my limited knowledge i have come to understand that serving in the normal force is a strict no-no for type 2  pre-diabetics. My question is that would they take me into reserves with type 2 pre-diabetes? Is it even worth putting in an application? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you, in advance.

Regards,
Sunny

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2017, 20:50:32 »
There is no difference in the medical requirements between the Regular Force and the Reserve Force; everyone must meet the same Common Enrollment Standard. The worst that can happen is that you apply and are unfit enrollment.

No one here will give you a definitive answer on your specific situation.
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Re: Diabetics in the CF
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 20:10:52 »
Hi,

I just got medical exam and interview for NCM position.  I am a Type II diabetes (non-insulin dependent) with good blood sugar control.  I told medical officer all the truth and he cannot say 'yes' or 'no' whether CF will accept person with type II diabetes. I just have to wait for the medical decision.  My question is whether CF accept Type II diabetes.   

Does anyone has diabetes and joined CF?