Author Topic: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]  (Read 1051506 times)

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Duotone81

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ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« on: April 25, 2004, 00:52:00 »
Hi Koach,

I have question that I hope you can answer. How exactly does the UTP-NCM plan work? Is the number of slots available through this plan determined by openings in the Officer Corps that weren't filled by DEO and ROTP or are ROTP and UTP-NCM both looked at equally for admission to RMC? Would you just need to be trade qualified, have the necessary academic background and leadership potential to apply for the program or are their any other requirements needed for consideration?

Thanks for your time.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2004, 01:22:00 »
Nick, you may already have this reference, but I will post the link anyway for the benefit of others who may be interested:

 CFAO 9-13 -- UNIVERSITY TRAINING PLAN -- NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

Duotone81

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2004, 01:25:00 »
That‘s exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks a lot sir.

koach

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2004, 01:29:00 »
I am not the best person to answer this question but the following link may answer your second question:
  http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/009-13_e.asp

Both ROTP and UTPNCM are very competitive and I think that applicants to either plan would be looked at equally.  I would recommend that you contact your closest Red and White coordinator under ‘contact us‘ on the following link for more information:

 http://www.rmcclub.ca/www/rawp/rawp_e.html

Duotone81

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2004, 01:56:00 »
Thanks for the Red and White contact info Koach.

I‘ll make use of that resource Monday morning and post any info not already mentioned in CFAO 9-13.

Offline recce pigeon

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2005, 22:18:32 »
I've spent a great deal of time and energy researching RMC and after applying and getting rejected I thought that ship had sailed. However I was reading these forums and saw someone mention something about ROTP through a civilian university.

I was wondering if anyone had any information or could point me towards some information regarding such a topic.

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2005, 22:35:16 »
I don't know about ROTP but a friend of mine (more than one really) has gone UTPNCM  (University Training Plan Non Commissioned Member)  It is avail in the regs I don't know about the reserves.  Maybe something to look into.
Does you unit have a PSO?  If so check with them.  They should have all the answers.
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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2005, 22:49:14 »
Cote, just because you got turned down from RMC once doesn't mean you will never get in. Keep at it. Besides, I believe the way it works is you apply to the ROTP program and if you have been selected to a civilian university, they may place you there or send you to RMC. At any rate, it's worth another shot to apply again.
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Offline snowy owl

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2005, 15:52:41 »
I'm doing ROTP right now at a civilian university because I'm a nurse and they don't have that at RMC...anyway I know you can do other trades and still go to civvy u. Basically I just filled out the ROTP forms from the recruiter's office(i dont know if they are different than ones for RMC) and had to be in the process of applying to a university to start the interviews and all that. You need the actual acceptance sheets from the university to be sworn in though. Hope this helps you a bit.

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2005, 23:38:01 »
I was a reservist with the airfield engineering flight in Abbotsford until this summer, when I went ROTP to the University of Victoria. Everyone seems to think that it's harder to get into civvie U, but while there are several hundred students at RMC, my subsidized education manager, who deals with everything west of Onterrible, deals with at least a few hundred students herself. That's just the four western provinces. So don't despair, apply again, and keep in mind that in the reserves you are eligible for reimbursement of university tuition up to a certain amount once you've served a few years. There are lots of options, you should be able to get more info through your CC though, especially concerning the local info. One negative point though is that your pay drops. As Reg F, you have right to pay, and they can't drop you. As a reservist, there is no UTPNCM and you'll go down to OCdt pay for the duration of school. On the other hand, CFHA can't charge you more than 25% of your gross so I pay less for my PMQ than I would pay for res at university. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.


Chimo!

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2005, 10:57:05 »
As a civvie U student, I was under the impression that as long as I took the courses that were required for my degree, I would be left alone, unfortunately, it seems, I was wrong. I have been told that I am allowed to take the MINIMUM courses required to get my degree, and anything else after that I am required to pay for.

A question to the RMC students out there: If you are in a specific degree program, say, Chemistry, and you want to take an extra course in Psychology, would you have to pay for it out of your own pocket? Or if you were in Business Administration, and you wanted to take a course in Political Science?

Also, to any ROTPs or UTs in civvie U, have you run into this problem?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2005, 14:32:18 »
I remember hearing that when I was in school.  I dropped a required course and was just going to take in the next semester.  The my SEM got all piddled at me when she found out and said that I would have to pay for the course on my own.  This didn't make sence to me since school costs the same whether you take 4 or 5 courses a semester.  I didn't end up paying for it there really was no way to do so.  Also most degrees give you the flexibility to take courses that aren't degree specific.  e.g.  In a science program the may say you need 6 credit hours in humanities...

My advice, take what you want ensuring that you are progressing steadily through your program and make sure you pass all your courses especially the required courses. 

BTW I was Civi U.
Always behave like a duck.   Remain cool and unruffled on the surface but paddle like the dickens underneath.

Offline Horse_Soldier

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2005, 14:48:10 »
As a civvie U student, I was under the impression that as long as I took the courses that were required for my degree, I would be left alone, unfortunately, it seems, I was wrong. I have been told that I am allowed to take the MINIMUM courses required to get my degree, and anything else after that I am required to pay for.

A question to the RMC students out there: If you are in a specific degree program, say, Chemistry, and you want to take an extra course in Psychology, would you have to pay for it out of your own pocket? Or if you were in Business Administration, and you wanted to take a course in Political Science?

Also, to any ROTPs or UTs in civvie U, have you run into this problem?

My days at Military College are long away, but when I went through, there was very little flexibility.  A specific stream (Admin, for example) would force you to take a core set of classes with, in the higher years, one optional per semester, which usually came down to choosing between two course offerings, such as say Economic History or Advanced Accouting.  Your schedule was filled up with the mandatories such that you didn't have time to take an additional course - at least in my stream.  But if there was time and some bright spark wanted to take an additional course, he/she would not have had to pay out of pocket.  When you're at RMC, the tuition is all inclusive, repayable via 4 years of obligatory service after graduation.
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Offline Feral

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2005, 15:59:35 »
Thanks for the info so far.. It pisses me off though that I might have to pay for a course on my own, while I was told (when recruited) that I could take whatever I wanted as long as I ended up with my specified degree at the end of it all. Granted, I don't have a lot of time to take extra courses, but if I want to take a special interest course, then it should be my business. Anyone who is currently in RMC or civvie U have an opinion?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2005, 16:12:06 »
Damn I think you should get a hold of the Ombudsmans office ASAP.  You are being prevented from fulfilling your educational dreams and who gives a crap who is paying for it and that you are also getting a salary to do nothing but go to school for eight months a year.  My God the injustice of it all.
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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2005, 16:34:09 »
Well gee, thanks a lot! I'm glad to see that there are still individuals out there who are willing to be helpful! It's so refreshing to hear from people who have good advice to give, and are willing to hand it out FREE OF CHARGE! Maybe you should get a job consulting, bring in some extra bucks for yourself on the weekend!  :salute:

Back to the topic at hand, why is it a big deal if I want to take an extra course to better myself? The CF is full of programs for it, and since I'm in school already, what is the harm? RMC students take extra courses like psychology and Canadian history because it produces more well-rounded officers, then what is the problem with someone at at civilian university doing the same with one of their electives?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2005, 16:40:47 »
As a recent RMC grad I have some insight into the subject.  First of all at RMC if you have the time and the desire you can take additional courses which are not strictly required for your degree at no cost.  Before you cry foul remember that the profs at RMC are paid to teach a certain set of courses, as far as I know the number of students doesn't factor into it.  As such, it costs the taxpayer nothing if an RMC student chooses to take an extra course.  Clearly this isn't the case at civvie U.  Maybe you think thats unfair.  On the other hand I doubt you have inspections or parades or morning PT.
"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2005, 16:47:19 »
It has nothing to do with being unfair. The way I see it, at RMC you have a heavy courseload because you have extra required courses, correct? I am taking a physics degree, and in my first semester of my second year, I only have 4 courses out of a max of 6. I just want to be able to fill those elective spots up with other courses. For instance, I am taking one third year physics course this semester so that brings my courseload up to 5 (I have the prerequisites for the course in question). That still leaves me one course. I'd love to fill it with other physics courses from the 3/4th year electives, but I don't have the prerequisites. Instead, I'd just like to be able to take a history course or something along those lines (no, not basket weaving).

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2005, 17:07:04 »
The fact remains that for you to take an additional course incurs an additional cost to the government while at RMC it does not.  Essentially you are expecting the government to fund your personal interest in history etc. which they are somewhat unsurprisingly reluctant to do.  It is true that at RMC our schedules do include certain courses which would not me included in a civvie U program, ie. engineers taking history/psych courses, this is a part of the RMC curriculum and not that of your faculty and is therefore required at RMC and not civvie U, it shouldn't be surprising that the two institutions have different QS.
"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2005, 17:22:55 »
I guess you have no idea how much money is wasted in other parts of the military, different courses just being one of the ways. How else can you explain my participation in a First Aid course twice in a year, even though I wasn't expired yet, just because there were spots available? That is a waste of money, I will agree, but my argument is that if I have the spot, then use it. If I have 4 courses, and I talk to someone from RMC, I'll hear the old "At RMC we have a really heavy courseload, it's so hard with the inspections and extra PT blah blah blah". I picked civvie U because I want a good education, and I want to be able to concentrate on studying and my grades, not on how my uniform looks in next week's inspection. I can get a better education by getting a more well-rounded education. Isn't that why we do OPMEs? Maybe I am "personally interested" in history, or maybe it's "my opinion" that a little psychology helps in the leadership department, but as long as I am taking a course that benefits the CF, what is the problem?

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2005, 19:20:25 »
I'm fully aware that the military is hardly an example of fiscal responsibility.  Also, I'm certainly not trying to tell you that the workload at RMC is excessive, I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree and I still had more free time than I knew what to do with so anyone who tries that line on you is, in my opinion, full of it.  Eventually all I can tell you is why I believe the policy on out-of-stream courses at civvie U is in place.  In the end if you strongly disagree with the policy the only thing you can do is take kincanuks advice and take your complaint higher.

"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 10:43:18 »
Well my initial inquiry was more for general information to find out what the official policy is. I've found in the last year that what I was told at the recruiting centre when I was signing up and what the real regs are are not always one and the same. If I have to pay for a course that interests me myself, so be it, it isn't so important to me that I would take it upstairs. It can be quite frustrating however to find out that what you've been told by someone when you were recruited isn't true, especially when it has happened several times in the last year.

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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2005, 13:39:06 »
The fact remains that for you to take an additional course incurs an additional cost to the government while at RMC it does not.  

How?  Try to go in and pay for that "extra course".  It is impossible.
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Re: ROTP at Civilian University 2004 - 2018 [Merged]
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2005, 12:58:12 »
Sorry I should have been more clear there.  What I should have said is "If you were to take an additional course at civvie U it would incur an additional cost."
"Since you attended public school, I'm going to assume you're already proficient with small arms, so we'll start you off with something a little more advanced."