Author Topic: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC  (Read 6096 times)

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Offline CBH99

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2020, 00:48:45 »
I agree with everything said above, from all of the posters.  100% of it.

And I couldn't agree more that the word 'fag' should be removed from our language, as it isn't used in remotely the same context as a British guy asking for a cigarette.



The thrust of my question was, however -- does anybody with recent experience at RMC have any knowledge of what kind of 'unwanted sexual behaviour' is being described in the article?

I'm not condoning it once so ever.  Just curious to see the situation in context.
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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2020, 09:06:47 »
Some of what you're asking about is, I think, detailed in the report, link below.  Scroll down to the Highlights section and start from there.

Examples

 - The most common types of behaviours that were witnessed or experienced by CMC students were sexual jokes, inappropriate discussions about sex life and inappropriate sexual comments about appearance or body.

 - Unwanted sexualized behaviours include acts other than sexual assault, and can range from sexual jokes to inappropriate discussions of a person’s sex life.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2020001/article/00011-eng.htm#a18

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 09:43:27 »
The actual data is a lot more telling than a bunch of headlines.

Quote
The prevalence of sexual assault among those in the general postsecondary student population was not statistically different for women (11%) or men (4%) when compared to students in CMCs (Burczycka 2020b). When looking at a similar age range to those in the CMC, these findings are also consistent with what was observed among Regular Force members of the CAF: 15% of women and 3% of men under the age of 24 were sexually assaulted in the 12 months prior to the SSMCAF (Cotter 2019), as well as the general population, based on results from the Survey of Safety in Public and Private Spaces (SSPPS) (Cotter and Savage 2019).

CMC should be better than the national average, but being at the national average for post-secondary is not, in itself, a crisis. It means there's a culture problem where the students are still acting like normal university kids than potential military officers and leaders. Again, CMC's are not significantly different from general post-secondary data on intervening:

Quote
Even though many Canadian military college students who witnessed or experienced unwanted sexualized behaviours in the postsecondary environment viewed them as offensive, the majority of students did not intervene when they witnessed these behaviours taking place. According to the SISPSP, 94% of men and 91% of women CMC students did not take action in at least one instance of witnessing unwanted sexualized behaviours in the CMC postsecondary setting (Table 2). Similar findings were also observed among students in the general student population (92% and 91%, respectively) (Burczycka 2020b).

This is where we need to make the culture change, at the bystander level. Fancy briefs, DLN courses and safety briefs before the weekend aren't going to change culture. You need the 3rd and 4th years buying in to the program and being what right looks like, with stiffer penalties for those individuals acting inappropriately or failing to act. When the 1st and 2nd years see the upper class taking it seriously, then they will buy in and reinforce that new culture over their 4 year stay. It's the right kind of vicious circle, where we slowly get better and better every year.

Offline stoker dave

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2020, 10:17:40 »
where we slowly get better and better every year.

I agree there may be a problem and, as stated, it needs to be addressed.  My time at RMC goes back to when the lady cadets were first introduced.  That was not necessarily smooth.  My concern is that while we should "slowly get better and better every year" I am a bit aghast that almost 40 years later this is *still* an issue. 

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2020, 10:40:12 »
Quote from: CBH99
And I couldn't agree more that the word 'fag' should be removed from our language, as it isn't used in remotely the same context as a British guy asking for a cigarette.

It seems like low hanging fruit sometimes too. People are quick to admonish that kind of language, which is great.

People are a little less aggressive when calling out the mwo or maj who turn into Mr Hyde anytime alcohol hits their lips. Inappropriate comments, inappropriate behavior, grabby hands, sexual propositions.

Sometimes it's reported. Sometimes:
"They're good guys when they're not drinking"
"They're going through a bad break up"
"They don't mean it"
"They're close to retiring, not worth ruining their career".





Some people are hard wired to behave this way and no amount of classes or training or workshops or threats will change that. These people have had careers of people making excuses for them and covering for them. The best thing we can do to prevent careers of this behavior is to take the hit to our strength/numbers and punt these men and women when they exhibit coming into the CAF with this behavior or anytime it comes up.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 11:04:53 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2020, 10:48:33 »
I agree with everything said above, from all of the posters.  100% of it.

And I couldn't agree more that the word 'fag' should be removed from our language, as it isn't used in remotely the same context as a British guy asking for a cigarette.

Fun fact: the term 'fag' is cockney rhyming slang:

Oily Rag = Fag = Cigarette

Not related to 'Ginger Beer' at all... :)

https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words04/usage/slang_cockney.html
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2020, 11:01:24 »
I agree there may be a problem and, as stated, it needs to be addressed.  My time at RMC goes back to when the lady cadets were first introduced.  That was not necessarily smooth.  My concern is that while we should "slowly get better and better every year" I am a bit aghast that almost 40 years later this is *still* an issue.
I had an instructor who was decidedly proud of being LCWB and not FCWA, who wore his sweat Buster's button beneath the lapel of his DEUs.

He was one of many factors that made me question the utility and professionalism of the MilCol system.
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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2020, 11:09:44 »
I had an instructor who was decidedly proud of being LCWB and not FCWA, who wore his sweat Buster's button beneath the lapel of his DEUs.

What's LCWB, FCWA, and a Buster's button   ???
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2020, 11:11:38 »
Elements of the harassment inflicted on the first females at RMC as inflicted by the other students, with tacit approval of much of the staff.

Edit: See https://everitas.rmcclub.ca/looking-back-through-the-1981-review%E2%80%A6/
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 11:16:49 by dapaterson »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2020, 11:21:29 »
Elements of the harassment inflicted on the first females at RMC as inflicted by the other students, with tacit approval of much of the staff.

For those who aren't aware of this particular horror show: SWEAT = 'Stupid Women Eating All the Time'. Apparently, they were so proud of this that even made a special pin...

RRMC Memories

Captain Laura Kissmann (Barr) joined RMC in 1984 and then transferred to RRMC in 1986 where she completed a bachelor’s degree in Physics and Physical Oceanography. She spent eleven years in the regular forces in the North Bay Fighter Group / Canadian NORAD Region HQ; Air Command HQ in Winnipeg; Wing Operations in Cold Lake, AB; and the CF Aerospace Warfare Centre in Ottawa. She remains a full-time air force reservist and lives in Carleton Place, ON.

Laura:  I actually am not certain of the date but I think I was the fourth or fifth class of girls.  And people often ask me because I graduated in the first class of girls with Roads, how hard was it at Royal Roads or RMC and I’ve always felt girls were more integrated here at Roads.  And part of that was because you had Royal Rodents who had come in and stayed in fourth year at RMC and they weren’t ready for girls so they’re our seniors and certainly I had a few experiences myself where they had that bitterness and lack of acceptance.  And my year they’d made a pin – I don’t know if you ever heard of this – it was a pin and it was a picture of Miss Piggy and it was the “NO” symbol – and she had the pillbox on – she was dressed like a cadet and I don’t know what it said on it but the symbol at the time was girls at military college were considered SWEAT– “stupid women eating all the time”.

Laurie:  Sweat busters.

Laura:  It was a sweat buster pin, that’s right. That’s right it was the year of the Ghostbusters. I was telling you about the stress – they went around the college and woke us up in the middle of the night and showed us this pin and yeah… you know that wasn’t fun.  In first year I was trying my hardest and you felt like you were keeping up with the guys and being accepted and then – just to have that little reminder that you weren’t really as well accepted there… was hard.

https://everitas.rmcclub.ca/rrmc-memories-9/


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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2020, 12:23:04 »
For those who aren't aware of this particular horror show: SWEAT = 'Stupid Women Eating All the Time'. Apparently, they were so proud of this that even made a special pin...

RRMC Memories

Captain Laura Kissmann (Barr) joined RMC in 1984 and then transferred to RRMC in 1986 where she completed a bachelor’s degree in Physics and Physical Oceanography. She spent eleven years in the regular forces in the North Bay Fighter Group / Canadian NORAD Region HQ; Air Command HQ in Winnipeg; Wing Operations in Cold Lake, AB; and the CF Aerospace Warfare Centre in Ottawa. She remains a full-time air force reservist and lives in Carleton Place, ON.

Laura:  I actually am not certain of the date but I think I was the fourth or fifth class of girls.  And people often ask me because I graduated in the first class of girls with Roads, how hard was it at Royal Roads or RMC and I’ve always felt girls were more integrated here at Roads.  And part of that was because you had Royal Rodents who had come in and stayed in fourth year at RMC and they weren’t ready for girls so they’re our seniors and certainly I had a few experiences myself where they had that bitterness and lack of acceptance.  And my year they’d made a pin – I don’t know if you ever heard of this – it was a pin and it was a picture of Miss Piggy and it was the “NO” symbol – and she had the pillbox on – she was dressed like a cadet and I don’t know what it said on it but the symbol at the time was girls at military college were considered SWEAT– “stupid women eating all the time”.

Laurie:  Sweat busters.

Laura:  It was a sweat buster pin, that’s right. That’s right it was the year of the Ghostbusters. I was telling you about the stress – they went around the college and woke us up in the middle of the night and showed us this pin and yeah… you know that wasn’t fun.  In first year I was trying my hardest and you felt like you were keeping up with the guys and being accepted and then – just to have that little reminder that you weren’t really as well accepted there… was hard.

https://everitas.rmcclub.ca/rrmc-memories-9/

I knew both Laura and Laurie (Laura more so, as we were in the same Flight). I was in an RRMC class year that included women, so to me it was always a natural part of life at RRMC. I thought the “SWEAT” and “LCWB” thing was, at very best, a very poor and not very funny joke and at worst, incredibly stupid. It was a good example of how unofficial culture, if not ruthlessly stamped out, can have very negative effects on a unit. I saw the effects of unofficial culture actually lead to the disbandment of the CAR about a decade later.

The women that were in my year, I generally had a great deal of respect for. I knew they had it harder than I did (And I was barely hacking how hard it was), even just from the perspective having to keep up with a physical fitness regime That was designed for males and exceedingly difficult to boot, not to mention fitting in to a culture that was 9/10ths british boys school by design and academically demanding on top of everything else. I hope that I was not one of the “jerks”, but looking back over the decades, I cannot be sure. All that I can say now is that if I made things harder on my female colleagues than they needed to be, I am truly sorry.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2020, 12:54:04 »
I knew both Laura and Laurie (Laura more so, as we were in the same Flight). I was in an RRMC class year that included women, so to me it was always a natural part of life at RRMC. I thought the “SWEAT” and “LCWB” thing was, at very best, a very poor and not very funny joke and at worst, incredibly stupid. It was a good example of how unofficial culture, if not ruthlessly stamped out, can have very negative effects on a unit. I saw the effects of unofficial culture actually lead to the disbandment of the CAR about a decade later.

The women that were in my year, I generally had a great deal of respect for. I knew they had it harder than I did (And I was barely hacking how hard it was), even just from the perspective having to keep up with a physical fitness regime That was designed for males and exceedingly difficult to boot, not to mention fitting in to a culture that was 9/10ths british boys school by design and academically demanding on top of everything else. I hope that I was not one of the “jerks”, but looking back over the decades, I cannot be sure. All that I can say now is that if I made things harder on my female colleagues than they needed to be, I am truly sorry.

It's not just a RRMC/RMC thing.... they had similar issues in the UK, at about the same time, with integrating women into Sandhurst. And, as described below, the vast majority of male soldiers (like yourself) were not a$$holes:

"While many men in the military are both good people and professional at work, toxic pockets of poor behaviour still cause difficulties. The influence of the Old Boys’ Network — of Eton, of Masonic handshakes — still persists, and in my view explains why the Army is struggling to recruit and retain women in 2020.

Back in 1983, it was made fairly clear to us that many in the Army did not really want us. Among the senior officers at Sandhurst there was a hardcore group of what I call ‘Red-Lighters’, who wanted to stop the progress of women altogether.

We were denied attendance at firepower demonstrations, for example, as ‘it would be all about tanks and armour and women would probably be bored’. We were told never to talk about ‘women’s problems’ and often heard men tell derogatory jokes."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8558139/Senior-female-Army-officer-reveals-women-march-Stripper-theme-tune.html
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2020, 17:46:29 »
CMC should be better than the national average, but being at the national average for post-secondary is not, in itself, a crisis. It means there's a culture problem where the students are still acting like normal university kids than potential military officers and leaders.

If they're at RMC, they are already Officers.  Maybe not 'trained' or 'OFP' but...they are still Officers.  I, for one, expect more from young Officers than I do from BMQ Recruits, the same I as expect more from Snr NCOs than I do Jnr NCOs. 

We need to rid ourselves of this image/concept that they are 'merely students', because they are not.

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2020, 17:58:41 »



If they're at RMC, they are already Officers.  Maybe not 'trained' or 'OFP' but...they are still Officers.  I, for one, expect more from young Officers than I do from BMQ Recruits, the same I as expect more from Snr NCOs than I do Jnr NCOs. 

We need to rid ourselves of this image/concept that they are 'merely students', because they are not.

Or maybe they are, in which case they should be going to a civi school....
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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2020, 19:03:30 »


Or maybe they are, in which case they should be going to a civi school....

Look- they are both students and young, inexperienced officers in training. They are going to get “human relations 101” wrong from time to time. Expect that, regardless of how many lectures, seminars, programs or supervision we throw at RMC cadets.

If we do not, as an institution, have the stomach to correct what is correctable (not all crimes are equally heinous) and get rid of those who cannot get with the program, then we might as well pack it in.

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2020, 19:06:03 »
If they're at RMC, they are already Officers.  Maybe not 'trained' or 'OFP' but...they are still Officers.  I, for one, expect more from young Officers than I do from BMQ Recruits, the same I as expect more from Snr NCOs than I do Jnr NCOs. 

We need to rid ourselves of this image/concept that they are 'merely students', because they are not.

Are they? Or are they Officer Cadets, without a commissioning scroll? Save for a few UTPNCMs, they do not become commissioned officers until they march back through that arch in at the end of Year 4. We absolutely should expect more out of them, but we also need to train them at "what right looks like". The only military training they've had in Year 1 is BMOQ Mod 1. Seemingly if there's enough of a critical mass conducting themselves contrary to the values of the Institution, then there's got to be a lot of blame placed on the BMOQ Mod 1 TP and the CMC culture/supervision.

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2020, 19:16:27 »
Are they? Or are they Officer Cadets, without a commissioning scroll? Save for a few UTPNCMs, they do not become commissioned officers until they march back through that arch in at the end of Year 4. We absolutely should expect more out of them, but we also need to train them at "what right looks like". The only military training they've had in Year 1 is BMOQ Mod 1. Seemingly if there's enough of a critical mass conducting themselves contrary to the values of the Institution, then there's got to be a lot of blame placed on the BMOQ Mod 1 TP and the CMC culture/supervision.

Officer Cadets are "officers" pursuant to the definition of "officer" in s 2(1) of the National Defence Act which reads:

Quote
officer means

(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,

(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and

(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces; (officier)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2020, 19:26:44 »
Quote from: PuckChaser
We absolutely should expect more out of them, but we also need to train them at "what right looks like".

I know where you're coming from but also don't think 1st year of university is where they should be learning what right looks like. They've arguably had 16+ years input already. Me and you can tell them what right looks like in the CAF but I suspect they're either on board already, or think it doesn't apply to them.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 19:46:07 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline reveng

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2020, 19:36:40 »
I seem to remember there being condoms available in the RMC barracks because they were worried about OCdts knocking each other up, and that they couldn't be trusted (or bothered) to grab rubbers at the MIR or on the economy like everyone else. Also anecdotal, but from what a few OCdts told me, there was no shortage of sex being had (including relationships between those whom a power imbalance existed, maybe someone who understands RMC better could elaborate what that meant exactly)

Just another reason why the military shouldn't focus on running a degree granting university...let the kids go be kids at a regular school, and then enter RMC when they are ready to focus on becoming leaders.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 19:42:30 by reveng »

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2020, 20:27:30 »
I know where you're coming from but also don't think 1st year of university is where they should be learning what right looks like. They've arguably had 16+ years input already. Me and you can tell them what right looks like in the CAF but I suspect they're either on board already, or think it doesn't apply to them.

We can't simultaneously say we need to be better than the general population but then toss up our hands and throw someone away as a lost cause at 19 years old. Firing everyone that does something wrong doesn't change the statistics, the incidents still happen. What we need to do is train a lot of the behaviours out of people. There's clearly big red lines that can never be crossed, but we're expecting people to know what's acceptable in a workplace without them every having been in a workplace before. Its also a unique situation that doesn't happen in a lot of workplaces where you're living in close quarters with coed coworkers 24 hours a day.

It starts with changing the culture at CMC (the students making their own pins to harass people made me shudder, screamed toxic culture) so that folks feel comfortable being that bystander to stop it at the lowest level. Peer disdain for your actions are a huge driver of change in personal behaviours for most people.

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2020, 20:53:54 »
We can't simultaneously say we need to be better than the general population but then toss up our hands and throw someone away as a lost cause at 19 years old. Firing everyone that does something wrong doesn't change the statistics, the incidents still happen. What we need to do is train a lot of the behaviours out of people. There's clearly big red lines that can never be crossed, but we're expecting people to know what's acceptable in a workplace without them every having been in a workplace before. Its also a unique situation that doesn't happen in a lot of workplaces where you're living in close quarters with coed coworkers 24 hours a day.

It starts with changing the culture at CMC (the students making their own pins to harass people made me shudder, screamed toxic culture) so that folks feel comfortable being that bystander to stop it at the lowest level. Peer disdain for your actions are a huge driver of change in personal behaviours for most people.

I am continually amazed at how much better younger people these days are at being respectful to those of different genders etc than I was when I was their age.

These people either didn't get the memo or we have inculcated them, unwittingly, with values from the 70s....
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2020, 21:24:52 »
We can't simultaneously say we need to be better than the general population but then toss up our hands and throw someone away as a lost cause at 19 years old. Firing everyone that does something wrong doesn't change the statistics, the incidents still happen. What we need to do is train a lot of the behaviours out of people. There's clearly big red lines that can never be crossed, but we're expecting people to know what's acceptable in a workplace without them every having been in a workplace before. Its also a unique situation that doesn't happen in a lot of workplaces where you're living in close quarters with coed coworkers 24 hours a day.

It starts with changing the culture at CMC (the students making their own pins to harass people made me shudder, screamed toxic culture) so that folks feel comfortable being that bystander to stop it at the lowest level. Peer disdain for your actions are a huge driver of change in personal behaviours for most people.

That's a fair point about people knowing what's acceptable and what's not in the work place when they've never worked.

My take is someone who goes through elementary school then high-school should be exposed to enough social interaction, rules and conversations that they should have a good baseline of right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable going into the workplace even at 18 or 19. I don't have a lot of sympathy or time for a 19 year old that "doesn't know any better" when it comes to this stuff.

Statistically if we get stricter and do just start firing people for violating the rules then we're bound to start pushing them out of the system faster.

44% the court martials from this month to Feb 2021 include sexual assault as a charge. Seems like a lot.
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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2020, 22:00:03 »
...
44% the court martials from this month to Feb 2021 include sexual assault as a charge. Seems like a lot.

In the JAG's Annual Report for 2018-2019, sexual assault constituted 5.30% of the charges disposed of by courts martial, up from 4.41% the previous year.

See here.

 :cheers:
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Offline dapaterson

    Halfway to being an idiot-savant.

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2020, 22:01:19 »
In the JAG's Annual Report for 2018-2019, sexual assault constituted 5.30% of the charges disposed of by courts martial, up from 4.41% the previous year.

See here.

 :cheers:

So, JAG has reformed and started obeying the law and producing the report as mandated by statue?

Was the JAG who refused to do so ever reported to his provincial bar?
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline FJAG

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Re: Article: Unwanted sexualized behaviour at RMC
« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2020, 22:13:50 »
So, JAG has reformed and started obeying the law and producing the report as mandated by statue?

Was the JAG who refused to do so ever reported to his provincial bar?

 :rofl:
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