Author Topic: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)  (Read 24133 times)

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Offline YZT580

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #300 on: July 16, 2020, 14:51:48 »
I watched two individuals go at it in the hardware store of all places just yesterday.  She lit into him because he went to an open cash register, coming from the east in the store but there were 2 individuals waiting in line for checkout but the line was to the west and not aligned with the tills: an honest error  on his part.  Her phraseology to him was much less than polite whilst his retort was suitably demeaning with reference her appearance and general deportment.  Both were insulting and if one had been of a different skin tone would have fit into the scenario at T & T's nicely.  In brief, they both lost it.  Should they therefore be charged?  The gentleman from his appearance was somewhat claustrophobic, he tore off his mask almost as soon as he left the store by the way.
The chap in Mississauga has ruined his life and his reputation, may lose his job and faces jail time.  His conduct was deplorable and his words were definitely insulting but I have heard noncoms question a person's heredity, suggest that an individual's ancestors were not human; using expressions equally demeaning, so should we not be prepared to cut a little slack or do we call out the constabulary every time a person loses his temper.  (thereby demonstrating that he was only human)  Regardless of what happens legally he has already been tried, convicted and sentenced.  Every child was intimately acquainted with the expression 'sticks and stones may break my bones..' Perhaps we need to apply that thought to ourselves as adults.
Keep the courts for real racism such as swastikas on the synagogue and letting pigs lose in the mosque.   

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #301 on: July 16, 2020, 15:14:10 »
Quote from: YZT580
Keep the courts for real racism such as swastikas on the synagogue and letting pigs lose in the mosque.

I'm still curious about the BC crosswalk incident.

If I pull up to the pride rainbow painted crosswalk in Pembroke and peel out should that be investigated as a hate crime? or hate "incident"?

Is that a valuable use of time for the OPP? News worthy?
Maybe have my name splashed all over the news and get the CDS get engaged and releasing an official tweet?

Does it seem like the official reaction is to publicize someones name and go after their employer to try and get the fired?
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #302 on: July 16, 2020, 16:07:08 »

Does it seem like the official reaction is to publicize someones name and go after their employer to try and get the fired?

You have just won the net for 10 minutes - seriously,  every minor transgression seems to provoke the idiot crowd with howls of rage and chants of "he/she should be fired".
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #303 on: July 16, 2020, 19:59:11 »
I am waiting for the day that some employer has to pay out big time for firing someone over a social media incident. Hopefully that cost is well publicized so employer think long and hard. The Twitterverse has a very short memory and companies that don't play the game rarely suffer long term. At most say "Yes we will look into it and decide what are the appropriate steps" and then shut up. 

Online Brad Sallows

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #304 on: July 16, 2020, 20:51:37 »
More likely is that some employer will pay out big time for allowing harassment of the kind described by former NYT employee Bari Weiss.  Immediately after that will be a handful of firings by employers that don't want to pay out for allowing harassment.  Then things will settle down.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #305 on: July 18, 2020, 02:37:02 »
A nice twist on the whole 'hate crime' thing, brought to you by: Canada :)



Halton police face public backlash and say ‘Nazi monument’ graffiti in Oakville no longer considered a hate crime

By David LeaInside

Halton police say the defacing of what some are calling a “Nazi monument” in an Oakville cemetery is no longer being investigated as a hate-motivated offence.

In a press release issued Friday, July 17, Det. Sgt. Barrett Gabriel of the Oakville Criminal Investigations Bureau said that, when police began investigating a June 22 incident, which saw a memorial within the St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery, vandalized with graffiti, it was deemed hate-motivated in that they believed it was targeting Ukrainians in general or Ukrainian members of the nearby cultural centre.

The target of the graffiti turned out to be a memorial to the 1st Ukrainian Division, which was created following the reformation of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, a paramilitary force under Hitler and the Nazis, responsible for terror in Germany and its occupied territories.

The division fought with the Germans against the Soviet Red Army during the Second World War.

Halton police faced a significant social media backlash over the perception vandalism to a Nazi monument was being investigated as a hate-motivated offence. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/07/17/halton-police-face-public-backlash-and-say-nazi-monument-graffiti-in-oakville-no-longer-considered-a-hate-crime.html
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 11:10:40 by daftandbarmy »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #306 on: July 18, 2020, 08:20:06 »
Quote
Graffiti on monument near Toronto commemorating Nazi SS division investigated as hate crime

Quote
Halton Regional Police said in a press release today that the message written on a controversial monument in Oakville’s St. Volodymyr Church cemetery in June is no longer being considered a hate offence.
https://oakvillenews.org/st-volodymyr-vandalism-no-longer-hate-motivated-offence/



Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #307 on: July 18, 2020, 10:02:42 »
By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".

The "hate crime" provisions of the Criminal Code do not specify that you're only prohibited from inciting hatred against certain groups, or that you're not allowed to incite hatred against Nazis. I think that this incident highlights some of the problems with "hate crime" legislation ... who decides who is exempt from protection from these laws?

I note that the beheading of Catholics statues in Sudbury was never treated as hate crime from the start (cf. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/half-a-dozen-religious-statues-beheaded-in-sudbury-1.5005486). So, inciting hatred against Nazis and Catholics okay ... who else is it okay to hate? Why is a double-standard appropriate?

Offline mariomike

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #308 on: July 18, 2020, 10:06:17 »
By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".

Halton Police Media Release

CLARIFICATION re: Investigation at St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery in Oakville
https://www.haltonpolice.ca/about/media/view_release.php?releaseID=6574

Offline CloudCover

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #309 on: July 18, 2020, 14:17:07 »
A super role model and advisor to the Province in Ontario is being taken down by the left: the reason? All people and industries need to be responsible for their own conduct and held responsible when they act irrationally. Of course, BLM, academics, some political leaders and the rest are having none of that, even if the advisor is a racial minority:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/article-ontarios-new-advocate-for-community-opportunities-is-getting-mixed/?



... Move!! ...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #310 on: July 18, 2020, 14:26:48 »
A super role model and advisor to the Province in Ontario is being taken down by the left: the reason? All people and industries need to be responsible for their own conduct and held responsible when they act irrationally. Of course, BLM, academics, some political leaders and the rest are having none of that, even if the advisor is a racial minority:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/article-ontarios-new-advocate-for-community-opportunities-is-getting-mixed/?

I find him pretty enjoyable to listen to. Very smart and articulate.

Quote
Jamil Jivani tends to start his own story with how he was a young Black man who fared poorly in high school but then, counter to expectation, bootstrapped his way to law school at Yale University. He uses this anecdote in his book, interviews and speeches.

Yea I can see why they would want to take him down.


This is a pretty good Ted Talk from him a few years ago where he speaks about racial profiling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCX_Th-IjjE
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Online Kilted

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #311 on: July 18, 2020, 15:56:49 »
By the letter of the law, as written, the police were actually correct to investigate it as a "hate crime".

The "hate crime" provisions of the Criminal Code do not specify that you're only prohibited from inciting hatred against certain groups, or that you're not allowed to incite hatred against Nazis. I think that this incident highlights some of the problems with "hate crime" legislation ... who decides who is exempt from protection from these laws?

I note that the beheading of Catholics statues in Sudbury was never treated as hate crime from the start (cf. https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/half-a-dozen-religious-statues-beheaded-in-sudbury-1.5005486). So, inciting hatred against Nazis and Catholics okay ... who else is it okay to hate? Why is a double-standard appropriate?


Well the Monument is specifically for a Ukrainian unit, in a Ukrainian graveyard.  I've done a bit of digging in their history.  Apparently they are well respected in the Ukraine because they were seen as liberators, because they were fighting the Soviets.  What does an occupied country do when another country forces the occupying country out of their lands?  They just happened to be on the losing side.  The Division has never been found to be guilty of any war crimes by any tribunal.  That being said, I'm sure that if this was on public property it would be coming down pretty soon, if it was ever allowed to be put up.  I'm sure that their will be pressure for the cemetery to remove it, but it is on private property, so they can do what they want with it. 

Offline YZT580

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #312 on: July 18, 2020, 16:41:25 »
I find him pretty enjoyable to listen to. Very smart and articulate.

Yea I can see why they would want to take him down.


This is a pretty good Ted Talk from him a few years ago where he speaks about racial profiling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCX_Th-IjjE
he
They don't have much choice.  It is either expel him or agree with him and that will never happen even if what he is saying is fundamentally correct.  He seems to be using his position to draw attention to the destruction of the family

Offline OceanBonfire

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #313 on: July 29, 2020, 13:57:27 »
Quote
Investigation finds multiple employees spread a racist, violent email at Transport Canada

...

The email contained a link to an offensive parody song called "Strangers on my Flight," set to the tune of a Frank Sinatra number. The spoof features derogatory lyrics based on racial stereotypes about travellers wearing turbans. The lyrics also talk about harming travellers with baseball bats.

...

CBC News originally reported on an email that listed Mark Haynes as the sender. He was working in the Aviation Security Office at Pearson International Airport in 2008, at the time of the email incident, and later served as the Transport Canada manager at the Ottawa International Airport. In 2018, he went on secondment with Global Affairs Canada as a senior liaison officer in Zambia.

"THIS IS GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!" said the email, which linked to a video of the derogatory song. "They should play this nonstop at all airports."

When contacted by CBC, Haynes referred to the email as "alleged" but didn't deny authoring it, confirmed he was part of an investigation and said he was not subjected to any disciplinary measures.

Haynes has not responded to CBC's latest request for an interview.

...

Soeterik said she received the email from Haynes in 2008, along with other employees and managers. She claims she spent years bringing it up at meetings and retreats, only to be labelled a troublemaker and to be ostracized and sexually harassed on the job.

Soeterik said she left the public service because her workplace had become toxic. Haynes, meanwhile, moved on to a new posting abroad to improve women's participation in international peacekeeping operations, according to his LinkedIn profile.

...


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/transport-canada-investigation-racist-email-findings-1.5666035
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Offline Jed

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2020, 14:40:42 »
If you really want to see how awful people treat each other just watch the Judicial Committee clown show where they have asked AG Barr to testify than proceed to grill him for hours without letting him make replies to the unceasing allegations tossed his way.

Sorry for the tangent, just noting how people treat each other in Canada and in the US and elsewher.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 14:50:47 by Jed »
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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #315 on: July 29, 2020, 14:42:56 »
If you really want to see how awful people treat each other just watch the Judicial Committee clown show where they have asked AG Barr to testify than proceed to grill him for hours without letting him make relies to the unceasing allegations tossed his way.

Ummm...David Lametti is Canada’s Attorney General.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #316 on: July 29, 2020, 16:46:36 »
Canada's militarized police forces face defunding and 'de-tasking', experts say

As a statement of police power, the armoured rescue vehicle that Halifax Regional Police had planned to buy for more than $300,000 spoke volumes about the militarization of law enforcement agencies in Canada.

The 8,000-kilogram, armour-plated truck  — equipped with a rotating roof hatch, eight gun ports and a powered battering ram — looked like it was ready for the worst of war zones.

However, when the purchase was scuttled by city council last month, Mayor Mike Savage made it clear the brawny
vehicle had become a symbol of oppression, particularly for Halifax's Black community. The mayor said the money would be used instead for anti-Black racism programs.

"There has been in this province a history of systemic racism, and we have to do better," Savage said at the time.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/canadas-militarized-police-forces-face-defunding-and-de-tasking-experts-say/ar-BB16Pkkv

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #317 on: July 29, 2020, 18:51:02 »
Quote from: daftandbarmy
equipped with a rotating roof hatch

So police can stand up there and spin around in circles?! No police force needs rotating roof hatches in Canada.
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Offline Canuck_Jock

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #318 on: July 30, 2020, 12:32:45 »
An interesting discussion on a sensitive topic. I'm now a social science postgrad student after 20yr forces career, it raises a lot of issues and questions.
 
FWIW my opinion is that, by and large, racism and discrimination is decreasing in our societies: a good thing. This is from education, evolving social attitudes to race and general exposure to, and acceptance of, other ethnicities and cultures. And let’s not forget goodwill goes a long way. That racism and prejudice exists can be beyond doubt. Some attitudes change slowly, some are just knuckle draggers. But make no mistake, our societies (speaking here from UK) have undergone demographic change unprecedented in our histories – all in the space of one human lifetime. And we have done so largely peacefully and with acceptance and accommodation.
 
There are a few aspects over the current debate that I find interesting, particularly from an Info Ops point of view. What role does the media play in shaping racial narratives? It is apparent that many mainstream media organisations have been taking almost an activist role, beyond the norm of ‘editorial line’ or of reporting fact, or separate opinion. Rather, ‘opinionated fact’. Although not common, where how does responsible journalism account for Jussie Smollet, Nicholas Sandmann, that non-incident in London Ont 2016 etc? So, when we see a video of some guy going off the deep end in a supermarket in Mississauga, is this a random, rare incident or the tip of a huge racist iceberg? What is media obligation in these circumstance?
 
Another interesting aspect is that the latest anti-racist wave of protests by now largely coalescing around the English* speaking countries has roots, in part, around the recent ‘radicalisation’ of white liberals on the issue of race. I would recommend the research in particular by Zach Goldberg https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-white-saviors, a doctoral student at Georgia State. All his data taken from surveys but showing significant shift in past decade on white liberal attitudes – dubbed in one Vox article ‘The Great Awokening’. For example, research indicates white libs now have a net preference for other ethnicities than their own – Bill Maher ‘it’s like discovering your mom likes the neighbour’s kid more than you…’ In this, has racism actually increased or our perception & sensitivity to it? More importantly can individual/societal racism ever be quantified domestically or internationally? How do we compare racism internationally – a man on a racist rant in a Canadian supermarket compared with what abroad? In many countries discrimination in favour of your in group is unremarkable.
 
Interested in all considered opinions.
 
* Macron made a national broadcast early, stating there was a lot to do to tackle racism in France. However, he made clear no historic names would be changed or statues removed. English/French cultural difference?
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Offline Canuck_Jock

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #319 on: July 30, 2020, 15:19:32 »
>First off, does anyone agree with my short analysis, and if so then what is the solution for the US.

No.  You proceed from false premises.  You clearly don't understand what fascism is, beyond being a word that people throw around because it sounds nasty.  As long as the people who claim to be in search of solutions are determined to misuse language (fascism, racism) and redefine words which have become largely pejorative in order to include their political opponents, no solutions will be possible because the real problems will be unidentified.  (I concede it is possible that someone could accidentally fix a problem unintentionally.)  Trump is basically in the muddled middle, and is as much a political weathervane as Joe Biden.  How soon people forget that one of the early concerns Republicans had with Trump was that he was basically in line with Democrats.

If Trump is defeated, all of the race-related problems will be as they are now.  For example, the same municipal administrations will be overseeing the same police forces.  The main difference will be that there will be no Trump for municipal and state administrations to use as a "squirrel!".

What America's politics is almost totally involved with amounts to two things: controlling the chair (the one the president sits in), and the increasing gap between what conservatives want and what progressives want.

A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.

Similarly, America is navigating the edges of what barely constitutes centrist politics these days. Trumpian nationalists to the right, Wokist ideologues to the left, neither boding well for consensual politics.

Still, for all its faults, the United States remains the best hope for a multiracial society coexisting together. To merge a slave holding society with their former slaves on the basis of equality (even if falling short in practice) is amongst the most radical political experiments conceived. We can only hope for equity and a spirit of accommodation of all. Let's remember how many societies kept their people in slavery, or quasi-slavery (serfdom) well into the 19th Century.

Ironically in light of current events, I am hard pressed to think of a nation that takes so much pleasure in publicly displaying its defects as does the US...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 15:36:32 by Canuck_Jock »

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #320 on: July 30, 2020, 16:14:14 »
A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.


The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #321 on: July 30, 2020, 16:30:16 »
The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.

Once they outlived their usefulness

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #322 on: July 31, 2020, 11:19:02 »
The real Nazis - if they were in- would underbus Antifa and BLM in very short order.

So to refer back to racism, the Nazis' fascist regime didn't move as quickly as you appear to be suggesting. We could refer to the rise of the German Workers' Party in 1910 or Hitler's election in 1933.

My point being, many Americans are showing concern over Trump's voicing of his agenda at least. Have we all reached agreement on that, even though Trump's 'spoken' agenda hasn't seen fruition?

BLM is in my opinion, the less than equal but opposite reaction.

And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?

Those who are concerned are not exaggerating in my opinion. That is my position to debate here in the context of racism. Trump doesn't have the power to postpone or cancel the election but the Congress does. The Senate might but the Hous wouldn't. The Scotus could make it happen. The Scotus has already decided one election for the people.

Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #323 on: July 31, 2020, 15:32:31 »

And to the point of the title of this thread: How would Trump's birtherism be received in Canada if it were to be mounted against our NDP leader, for instance?

Your thoughts? Others' thoughts?

We already sasw that type of movie with former GG Michaelle Jean (Haiti and frechcitizenship, former GG Adrienne Clarkson (Hong Kong), current leader of the opposition in parliament Andrew Scheer (American - btw, there was some news circulated that condemned his American citizenship), former leader of the NDP Tom Mulcair (French and Québec - just kidding about la belle province), cuurent (L)MP HEDY FRY Trinidadian), current MP(L) Pablo Rodríguez (Argentinia) and I'm sure there are others as well.



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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Racism in Canada (split from A Deeply Fractured US)
« Reply #324 on: August 01, 2020, 14:55:48 »
Moved the Trump stuff to the Fractured US thread. Don't need another thread derailed because someone brought him up.