Author Topic: A Deeply Fractured US  (Read 31072 times)

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #500 on: July 30, 2020, 17:59:16 »
So what? Charge everyone with treason, tack on the supplementary 129 charge, and let's send someone to jail! Cocktails in The Mess to follow.
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #501 on: July 30, 2020, 21:26:13 »
My premise was and is correct on Trump's attempts to turn America's democracy into a fascist regime. I understand perfectly that fascism can be said to be an attack on democracy. Obama's eulogy for John Lewis stated 4 or 5 examplles of Trump's attack on America's democracy. While it's always debatable whether Obama's examples were accurate and correct, my premise still stands as correct.

And then Trump supplied us with  an even better example today with his attempt to put off the coming election, which is said to be on account of the failing economy of the US. That could again be argued as not being the reason why Trump wants to delay the election, and he could make an argument for the reason being that Corona virus is a legitimate reason. That's fine too if Trump wants to buckle on his claim that it's a fake virus and there's no consequences to be paid if the people.

Neither would that sort of a claim from Trump make my premise of fascism on the rise being a false premise.

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #502 on: July 30, 2020, 21:38:17 »
A good analysis. The debasing of language poses a huge problem; as one pundit put it, what happens were real Nazis to appear, what do we call them.
.

You've taken my suggestion of fascism on the rise with the Trump regime, and made it into a straw man argument by mentioning Nazis.  I am maintaining that Trump's attack on America's democracy is equivalent to fascism. Please be aware Hitler's regime is but one example of fascism. Can you cite any more current examples?

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #503 on: July 31, 2020, 01:05:29 »
***This is OT for the thread, and could be moved***

Consider the first sentence at Fascism - Wikipedia (less the footnote numbers and pronunciation guide):

"Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe."

And from Authoritarianism:

"Authoritarianism is a form of government characterized by strong central power and limited political freedoms. Political scientists have created many typologies describing variations of authoritarian forms of government. Authoritarian regimes may be either autocratic or oligarchic in nature and may be based upon the rule of a party or the military."

Power in the US government is still divided between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches.  We know this because judges routinely hand the executive defeats in court (which it complies with), and neither Trump, nor Pelosi, nor McConnell can tell the other two what to do and make it stick.  When the executive is defeated in court, it accepts the defeat.  Sometimes it polishes up its arguments or the parameters of what it wants to do and tries again.  And again.  Ultimately, though, it either wins fairly or stops trying.  The judgements handed down in the past few weeks illustrate clearly that the Supreme Court in particular is not a puppet of the executive.

Political freedoms have not disappeared in the US.  People still protest, they even riot, often with little consequence.  The major media agencies, and everyone with a web presence, publish and say pretty much what they want to.  Some cities openly disregard immigration enforcement.  The Bill of Rights amendments still stand, and are stronger - sometimes far stronger - protections than most other countries will tolerate.

There is no one-party control.  The Democrats won the House in 2018 fair and square and the transition of control from one party to the other happened just like it always does.  Neither the administration nor the Republican party tried to seriously block the Mueller investigation.  There is no reasonable case to make that Republicans would resist a change of control in the Senate.  There is no reasonable case to make that, subject to customary challenges, Trump would not vacate the White House if he loses.

Rule by the military isn't in evidence at all.

Trump is not authoritarian.  He blusters about things he'd like to do, or that he'd like to see happen - some of which he plainly has no power to do - but there's no follow through.

So now consider these parts of the description of fascism:

- dictatorial power
- forcible suppression of opposition
- as well as strong regimentation of society...
- ...and of the economy

Trump does not have dictatorial power.  He dictates, but no-one obeys.  Most just mock.

Opposition, whether to Trump, or to the House Democrats, or the Senate Republicans, is essentially unimpeded.

Society is not regimented.  The inability to get Americans to meekly follow pandemic mitigation guidelines is proof.

The economy is not regimented.  Companies do not take their instructions from any branch of government or political party.  The US does not have corporatism in the sense required by fascism.

>I am maintaining that Trump's attack on America's democracy is equivalent to fascism.

If any damage is being done to parts of "America's democracy" (columnists seem to prefer the phrase "democratic institutions"), it's being done mostly by people opposed to Trump.  Trump calls people names and speculates irresponsibly (such as the business about delaying the election), but that's not a meaningful attack, unless American democracy has all the structural integrity of a wet kitten.
+25 « Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:09:17 by Brad Sallows »
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #504 on: July 31, 2020, 11:23:23 »
***This is OT for the thread, and could be moved***


Yes, it is but my comments in my last post have brought the discussion back on topic. You will see in that post that my original comment concerning fascism has in my opinion gained acceptance here, in that it's Trump's expressed agenda. So far?

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #505 on: July 31, 2020, 12:25:00 »
One example of anyone who's been oppressed, or more oppressed if you want to buy that bowl of soup, in the last 4 years?
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #506 on: July 31, 2020, 14:11:13 »
One example of anyone who's been oppressed, or more oppressed if you want to buy that bowl of soup, in the last 4 years?

Go through the list published here. You might find a few that you'll agree constitute oppression.

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #507 on: July 31, 2020, 14:31:01 »
Good luck.  You might, but it seems to almost entirely consist of policy differences.  I quit searching after reading to the start of "June".
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #508 on: July 31, 2020, 15:50:48 »
Claiming that Trump is a fascist has zero, repeat zero, basis in reality.

Then there is Obamagate, which will either bust the dems or bust the republicans
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #509 on: July 31, 2020, 22:05:04 »
A solution at last.

Quote
U.S. Military Bases to be Renamed after Disney Princesses

by Maxwell Paddington

June 12, 2020

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Pentagon) — In an effort to increase government transparency, all U.S. military bases worldwide will be renamed after Disney princesses. The announcement was made this morning by U.S. Army Gen. Mark Milley, in response to calls for renaming U.S. military installations named after Civil War confederate generals.

“Six media companies have controlled 90% of the media in this country since 2011,” said Milley. “232 media executives control the information diet of more than 330 million Americans, that’s one media executive per 1.3 million Americans. It’s time we honored these quiet professionals and their ubiquitous contributions to freedom.”

Congress is currently debating whether or not to replace the American Eagle with a cartoon mouse.

https://article107news.com/u-s-military-bases-to-be-renamed-after-disney-princesses/

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #510 on: August 01, 2020, 00:05:07 »
A solution at last.

https://article107news.com/u-s-military-bases-to-be-renamed-after-disney-princesses/

 :cheers:


I know I've lost track as I've become older, but dang!  Disney sure has a lot more princesses now than when I was young!   ;) :o

I mean after Princess Jasmine (hottest of them all, lets be real)  Ariel, Pochahontas, Belle from Beauty & The Beast.  That's it.  That's all I know 
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #511 on: August 01, 2020, 00:18:15 »

I know I've lost track as I've become older, but dang!  Disney sure has a lot more princesses now than when I was young!   ;) :o

I mean after Princess Jasmine (hottest of them all, lets be real)  Ariel, Pochahontas, Belle from Beauty & The Beast.  That's it.  That's all I know

Fort Tinker Bell.

I know. Not an actual princess.

 ;D
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 14:28:12 by FJAG »
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #512 on: August 01, 2020, 00:20:08 »
Neither was Belle, she still gets a pass though   ;)

I forgot all about Tinker Bell.  Have a feeling she was a stripper when not acting in Disney movies 
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #513 on: August 01, 2020, 13:44:43 »
Hold me close, tiny dancer.
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #514 on: August 01, 2020, 14:16:01 »
Hold me close, tiny dancer.

I thought it was "hold the door closed Tony Danza".
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #515 on: August 01, 2020, 14:34:53 »
Claiming that Trump is a fascist has zero, repeat zero, basis in reality.


Just claiming it ain't so doesn't make it ain't so. Trump's ambitions aren't hidden in the least and so that calls for at least bringing them up for question specifically.

The only defense of Trump in that respect would be to accuse Trump of 'trolling' the leftists for the sake of it causing anger. Is that the reason why Trump says he wants to postpone the election or is he dead serious.

If he's  just kiddin then there's a legitimate defense of Trump that could be used to take down my suggestion of fascist tendencies. But if he's serious then there's lots of examples of Trump's behaviour to talk about.

As I suggested earlier, Obama's eulogy for John Lewis contained 4 or 5 more examples that are offered to question Trump's efforts to take down America's democracy (fascism?)

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #516 on: August 01, 2020, 17:52:40 »
Just claiming it is so doesn't make it so.

There's nothing fascist about changing election dates.  There's even less fascist about merely suggesting that a date could be changed.  Plenty of elections are now partly conducted on dates other than the original "election day".

Until Trump can and does issue orders to the legislative and judicial branches, and occasionally to the American people and American private interests, and make them stick by relying on a supportive and compliant military, neither he nor the US is fascist.
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #518 on: Yesterday at 13:31:33 »
Just claiming it ain't so doesn't make it ain't so. Trump's ambitions aren't hidden in the least and so that calls for at least bringing them up for question specifically.

The only defense of Trump in that respect would be to accuse Trump of 'trolling' the leftists for the sake of it causing anger. Is that the reason why Trump says he wants to postpone the election or is he dead serious.

If he's  just kiddin then there's a legitimate defense of Trump that could be used to take down my suggestion of fascist tendencies. But if he's serious then there's lots of examples of Trump's behaviour to talk about.

As I suggested earlier, Obama's eulogy for John Lewis contained 4 or 5 more examples that are offered to question Trump's efforts to take down America's democracy (fascism?)

Donald Trump – worst fascist dictator ever, eh

Since Trump’s election, leftists have insisted that he is a fascist authoritarian

I used to think that cries of “fascist, Nazi, etc.” somehow belonged to the past.

However, if we’re going to spar about the F-word – not that one, the another one: fascism – it is needful for us to get a firm understanding of what the term means.

((Oxford dictionary defines fascism as (disapproving, offensive) used to describe somebody that you think is bad because they have right-wing attitudes))


Why does the Uber Left call their foes “fascists, Nazis, etc.”?  We see wisdom in George Orwell’s observation, expressed in his 1946 essay, “Politics and the English Language,” that “[t]he word fascism now has no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable.’”  If today’s Left does not like someone – say George W. Bush or Donald Trump or Stephen Harper or Maggie Thatcher – or something – like conservatism – it cast aspersions upon that person or thing with the F-word, and hopes others will know that the tarred individual or entity isn’t “desirable.”

During the 2016 presidential campaign, Obama called Trump as fascist: According to NBC News, Obama told Kaine by phone, “Tim, remember, this is no time to be a purist. You’ve got to keep a fascist out of the White House,” Kaine says a clip included in the Hulu series, “Hillary,”

And this is funny - In 2019, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asserted that Trump was “running concentration camps on our southern border,” making him “an authoritarian and fascist president.”. Somehow, she forgot about President Obama's role in that :not-again:

Do you remember when Nancy Pelosi in their last election cycle asked "Mr Trump, will you accept the election results?"

That's a laugh as you know that the dems never accepted the election of Trump to the WH.

Don't get me wrong - I don't care for Trump but I despise the dems more
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #519 on: Yesterday at 13:54:36 »
Donald Trump – worst fascist dictator ever, eh

Since Trump’s election, leftists have insisted that he is a fascist authoritarian

I used to think that cries of “fascist, Nazi, etc.” somehow belonged to the past.

However, if we’re going to spar about the F-word – not that one, the another one: fascism – it is needful for us to get a firm understanding of what the term means.

((Oxford dictionary defines fascism as (disapproving, offensive) used to describe somebody that you think is bad because they have right-wing attitudes))


Why does the Uber Left call their foes “fascists, Nazis, etc.”?  We see wisdom in George Orwell’s observation, expressed in his 1946 essay, “Politics and the English Language,” that “[t]he word fascism now has no meaning except in so far as it signifies ‘something not desirable.’”  If today’s Left does not like someone – say George W. Bush or Donald Trump or Stephen Harper or Maggie Thatcher – or something – like conservatism – it cast aspersions upon that person or thing with the F-word, and hopes others will know that the tarred individual or entity isn’t “desirable.”

During the 2016 presidential campaign, Obama called Trump as fascist: According to NBC News, Obama told Kaine by phone, “Tim, remember, this is no time to be a purist. You’ve got to keep a fascist out of the White House,” Kaine says a clip included in the Hulu series, “Hillary,”

And this is funny - In 2019, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez asserted that Trump was “running concentration camps on our southern border,” making him “an authoritarian and fascist president.”. Somehow, she forgot about President Obama's role in that :not-again:

Do you remember when Nancy Pelosi in their last election cycle asked "Mr Trump, will you accept the election results?"

That's a laugh as you know that the dems never accepted the election of Trump to the WH.

Don't get me wrong - I don't care for Trump but I despise the dems more

I'm not sure of the agreed definition but I've always understood fascism as an anti-communist, authoritarian-totalitarian, racist-nativist movement at least

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #520 on: Yesterday at 14:18:30 »
I'm not sure of the agreed definition but I've always understood fascism as an anti-communist, authoritarian-totalitarian, racist-nativist movement at least

I'd say that the "racist-nativist" is optional but many are nativist which generally leads to racist.

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #521 on: Yesterday at 14:27:09 »
I'm not sure of the agreed definition but I've always understood fascism as an anti-communist, authoritarian-totalitarian, racist-nativist movement at least

Fascism certainly has it's identifiable traits and priorities and you are especially right, in my opinion, to say that fascism is anti-communism. Many (maybe most) Americans just consider fascism to be the same as communism but we know that's utter nonsense.

I'll also suggest that most Americans consider everything left of themselves to be either socialist or communist. For example, Bernie Sanders is labelled a socialist while he's no more left than Canada's politics of either the Liberals or the Conservatives.

The plot thickens.

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #522 on: Yesterday at 14:28:09 »
I'm not sure of the agreed definition but I've always understood fascism as an anti-communist, authoritarian-totalitarian, racist-nativist movement at least

I aggree for the most part but the last "racist-nativist movement" I'm not sure if it qualifies under fascism.

it seems there are many varients of fascism. From Wikipedia (about Fascism) - Christian fascism, Clerical fascism, Crypto-fascism, Dictatorship, Economics of fascism, Fascism and ideology, Fascist syndicalism, Islamic fascism, Nazism, Neo-fascism, Neo-nazism, Pact of Pacification, Proto-fascism, Right-wing authoritarianism, Reactionary modernism, Revolutionary nationalism, Squadrismo, Strongman (politics)
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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #523 on: Yesterday at 14:38:36 »
On the racist-nativist element, I'm just unfamiliar with enough fascist movements to identify ones that weren't

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Re: A Deeply Fractured US
« Reply #524 on: Yesterday at 15:24:43 »
Claiming that Trump is a fascist has zero, repeat zero, basis in reality.

An extract of the definition of fascism from the The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics and International Relations (Oxford Quick Reference) (p. 193). OUP Oxford. Fourth Edition (2018)  Edited by Brown, Garrett W; McLean, Iain; McMillan, Alistair.

Quote
fascism A right‐wing nationalist ideology or movement with a totalitarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism.
.
.
.

Genuinely fascist ideologies are: monist, that is to say, based upon the notion that there are fundamental and basic truths about humanity and the environment which do not admit to question; simplistic, in the sense of ascribing complex phenomena to single causes and advancing single remedies; fundamentalist, that is, involving a division of the world into ‘good’ and ‘bad’ with nothing in between; and conspiratorial, that is, predicated on the existence of a secret world‐wide conspiracy by a hostile group seeking to manipulate the masses to achieve and/ or maintain a dominant position.

In content, these ideologies are distinguished by five main components: (1) extreme *nationalism*, the belief that there is a clearly defined nation which has its own distinctive characteristics, culture, and interests, and which is superior to others; (2) an assertion of national decline— that at some point in the mythical past the nation was great, with harmonious social and political relationships, and dominant over others, and that subsequently it has disintegrated, become internally fractious and divided, and subordinate to lesser nations; (3) this process of national decline is often linked to a diminution of the racial purity of the nation— in some movements the nation is regarded as co‐extensive with the race (the nation race), while in others, hierarchies of races are defined generically with nations located within them (the race nation), but in virtually all cases, the view is taken that the introduction of impurities has weakened the nation and been responsible for its plight; (4)the blame for national decline and/ or racial miscegenation is laid at the door of a conspiracy on the part of other nations/ races seen as competing in a desperate struggle for dominance; (5) in that struggle, both capitalism and its political form, liberal democracy, are seen as mere divisive devices designed to fragment the nation and subordinate it further in the world order.

With regard to prescriptive content, the first priority is the reconstitution of the nation as an entity by restoring its purity. The second is to restore national dominance by reorganizing the polity, the economy, and society.Means to this end include variously: (1) the institution of an authoritarian and antiliberal state dominated by a single party; (2) total control by the latter over political aggregation, communication, and socialization; (3) direction by the state of labour and consumption to create a productionist and self‐sufficient economy; and (4) a charismatic leader embodying the ‘real’ interests of the nation and energizing the masses. With these priorities fulfilled, the nation would then be in a position to recapture its dominance, if necessary by military means.

Such priorities were explicit in the inter‐war fascist movements, which indulged in racial/ ethnic ‘cleansing’, established totalitarian political systems, productionist economies, and dictatorships, and of course went to war in pursuit of international dominance. But such parties can no longer openly espouse these extremes, and national/ racial purity now takes the form of opposition to continuing immigration and demands for repatriation; totalitarianism and dictatorship have been replaced by lesser demands for a significant strengthening in the authority of the state, allegedly within a democratic framework; productionism has become interventionism; and military glory has been largely eschewed.

While the US under Donald Trump is not a fascist dictatorship, if you look at the examples I posted above you can see that parts of his platform does include elements that we would describe as fascist.
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