Author Topic: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds  (Read 7647 times)

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Offline Target Up

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2019, 21:37:56 »
That’s the problem with a major power electing a leader who can’t explain or spell ‘hegemony’.

Sure he can. That's the money you pay the gardener to trim the hedges.
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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2019, 08:26:12 »







“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

The words I share here are my own, not those of anyone else or anybody I may be affiliated with.

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2019, 17:03:33 »
I challenge any of the apologists reading this post to provide a cogent and compelling argument as to why this letter is not a complete embarrassment to what used to be a great country.

Sounds like the former United States Secretary of State has zero f---s left to give,  :)

"Found in the archives",
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/1186008390926917632
 

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2019, 18:22:45 »
US troops leaving Syria will operate out of Iraq.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/defense-chief-us-troops-leaving-syria-to-go-to-western-iraq-1.603827


So Trump pulls troops out of Syria, and leaves the Kurds to now deal with the Turkish military offensive in addition to ISIS.

Reasons stated?  Pulling troops out of the Middle East.  It's not our problem.  They didn't help us in Normandy (Still  :facepalm:)


But now, those same troops are hopping on a plane & popping over to Iraq, to continue the same fight against the same enemy?  Seems like none of the initial reasons he stated are valid anymore...?
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Offline CBH99

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2019, 18:28:01 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOUntMtlfo


Perhaps a stroke of accidental genius behind Trump's plan to withdraw from that part of Syria??


In ALL fairness, as much as nobody likes or can even understand Trump - the media does tend to focus 100% on attacking everything he says/does, without looking too broadly at what the underlying big picture may have been.

Whether what Mr. Graham is saying was an intentional "big picture" move from Trump, or perhaps a lucky aftermath, I doubt we will ever know.  Does seem like a prudent strategic move in regards to preventing Iranian influence from growing & directing oil revenues to the Kurds rather than Assad...
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Offline Remius

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2019, 18:54:53 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOUntMtlfo


Perhaps a stroke of accidental genius behind Trump's plan to withdraw from that part of Syria??


I agree with the Stroke part. 
Optio

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2019, 19:37:38 »
Blackmail IS such a harsh term ...
Quote
Turkey is not blackmailing NATO with its rejection of a defence plan for the Baltics and Poland, and has full veto rights within the alliance, a Turkish security source said on Monday ahead of a NATO alliance summit in London.

Reuters reported last week that Turkey was refusing to back a NATO defence plan for the Baltics and Poland until it received more support for its battle with the Syrian Kurdish YPG militia, which it views as a terrorist organisation.

Ankara has said the impasse was caused by the United States withdrawing support from a separate defence plan for Turkey, covering any possible attack from the south where it borders Syria, and that it wanted the issue resolved.

"NATO is an institution where Turkey has full veto rights, politically and militarily, and there are procedures here," the source said. "There is no such thing as Turkey blackmailing - a statement like that is unacceptable."

A diplomatic source told Reuters last week that Turkey was "taking eastern Europeans hostage" by blocking approval of the military planning, and a second source call Ankara's behaviour "disruptive".

NATO envoys need formal approval by all 29 members for the plan to improve the defence of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia against any threat from neighbouring Russia.

A Turkish diplomatic source later said Turkey was "open to offers", and that NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg was trying to find common ground between the allies ...
More @ link
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Offline CBH99

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2019, 22:32:03 »
What do they need NATO's assistance for, in regards to their efforts in Syria?


They are the second largest military in NATO.  They have a modern army, and an air force equipped with a large fleet of upgraded & modern F-16's...  surely the ragtag militia's they are supplying to fight the Kurds (now that they can't as easily support ISIS) outta be enough backup, no?

Other than artillery firing from inside of Turkey into Kurdish areas, and possibly air strikes, I haven't seen a ton of professional Turkish military forces in the news clips.  Unprofessional militias being supplied by the Turks, on the other hand, seem to be everywhere. 



Not only that, but the Kurds are by far our preferred ally in the region.  What exactly does Turkey want us to do to support them again?  Bomb and kill the folks who sacrificed tens of thousands of their own to fight ISIS?  Since the Kurds waged that fight mostly between Turkey on one side & ISIS on the other, wouldn't Turkey prefer the Kurds next door over ISIS?  On the "surface" one would think so...


They might not be blackmailing NATO, as I'm not sure that is the correct term here.  But other than a refugee buffer, Turkey really isn't worth the annoyance it causes...   :2c:
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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2019, 00:30:40 »
What do they need NATO's assistance for, in regards to their efforts in Syria?


They are the second largest military in NATO.  They have a modern army, and an air force equipped with a large fleet of upgraded & modern F-16's...  surely the ragtag militia's they are supplying to fight the Kurds (now that they can't as easily support ISIS) outta be enough backup, no?

Other than artillery firing from inside of Turkey into Kurdish areas, and possibly air strikes, I haven't seen a ton of professional Turkish military forces in the news clips.  Unprofessional militias being supplied by the Turks, on the other hand, seem to be everywhere. 



Not only that, but the Kurds are by far our preferred ally in the region.  What exactly does Turkey want us to do to support them again?  Bomb and kill the folks who sacrificed tens of thousands of their own to fight ISIS?  Since the Kurds waged that fight mostly between Turkey on one side & ISIS on the other, wouldn't Turkey prefer the Kurds next door over ISIS?  On the "surface" one would think so...


They might not be blackmailing NATO, as I'm not sure that is the correct term here.  But other than a refugee buffer, Turkey really isn't worth the annoyance it causes...   :2c:

Sadly, we need each other

Despite loveless marriage, NATO to keep Turkey close

'Host to U.S. nuclear warheads at its Incirlik air base and with the second-largest military in the alliance, Turkey gives the alliance a strategic presence, notably on the Black and Mediterranean seas. NATO is also seeking an image of unity when it holds a summit in London on Dec. 4 to celebrate 70 years since its founding in Washington, hoping to shore up confidence shaken by Trump’s portrayal of the alliance in crisis, diplomats said.'

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-turkey/despite-loveless-marriage-nato-to-keep-turkey-close-idUSKBN1X41N9
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Offline CBH99

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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #110 on: December 03, 2019, 02:40:36 »
With respect daftandbarmy,

Do we really need each other?  What does Turkey offer NATO (in the real world, not on paper) that we absolutely need?


1.  The US doesn't "need" nuclear weapons there, especially if their primary target is Russia. 

There are plenty of nuclear weapons positioned throughout Europe, not to mention the UK and French have nuclear forces of their own.  This doesn't include submarine launched nuclear weapons, either.

Also, how would that work?  If Turkey and Russia are allies, supporting each other's foreign policies and purchasing/supplying military hardware to each other...only to have a nuclear attack launched from Turkish territory?  The relationship between Turkey and the US has changed enough, the above might need be to considered.  (Most likely already has been.)


2.  Turkey, despite being a large NATO country with a professional military, doesn't seem to offer those forces to NATO operations in any real meaningful way minus naval contributions to task forces.

Even now, militias are being supplied/employed to do a majority of their ground fighting for them.


3.  Other than being a refugee buffer and absorbing a lot of refugees that would otherwise have made it to mainland Europe, what "good-willed" benefit does Turkey offer?

Let's not forget, Turkey - only a month or so ago - threatened to open the gates and allow thousands of refugees into Europe, if the EU didn't "properly word" their position in regards to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. 

Not to mention the heavy-handed cleansing of Turkish societal institutions after the false-flag coup attempt.


There was a lot of press coverage about soldiers, police officers, news reporters, teachers, judges, etc etc being arrested and detaind after that.  I've tried to google information about those same people being released, and haven't been able to find anything.  Does anybody know?



With all due respect DandB, I don't know if we 'really' need each other all that much.  If they had a similar value system as the west, and could be replied upon to provide professional fighting forces to NATO operations, sure.  But I don't see either of those things happening.
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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #111 on: December 03, 2019, 05:42:43 »
With respect daftandbarmy,

Do we really need each other?  What does Turkey offer NATO (in the real world, not on paper) that we absolutely need?


1.  The US doesn't "need" nuclear weapons there, especially if their primary target is Russia. 

There are plenty of nuclear weapons positioned throughout Europe, not to mention the UK and French have nuclear forces of their own.  This doesn't include submarine launched nuclear weapons, either.

Also, how would that work?  If Turkey and Russia are allies, supporting each other's foreign policies and purchasing/supplying military hardware to each other...only to have a nuclear attack launched from Turkish territory?  The relationship between Turkey and the US has changed enough, the above might need be to considered.  (Most likely already has been.)


2.  Turkey, despite being a large NATO country with a professional military, doesn't seem to offer those forces to NATO operations in any real meaningful way minus naval contributions to task forces.

Even now, militias are being supplied/employed to do a majority of their ground fighting for them.


3.  Other than being a refugee buffer and absorbing a lot of refugees that would otherwise have made it to mainland Europe, what "good-willed" benefit does Turkey offer?

Let's not forget, Turkey - only a month or so ago - threatened to open the gates and allow thousands of refugees into Europe, if the EU didn't "properly word" their position in regards to the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. 

Not to mention the heavy-handed cleansing of Turkish societal institutions after the false-flag coup attempt.


There was a lot of press coverage about soldiers, police officers, news reporters, teachers, judges, etc etc being arrested and detaind after that.  I've tried to google information about those same people being released, and haven't been able to find anything.  Does anybody know?



With all due respect DandB, I don't know if we 'really' need each other all that much.  If they had a similar value system as the west, and could be replied upon to provide professional fighting forces to NATO operations, sure.  But I don't see either of those things happening.

Might it be that Turkey firmly in Russia’s orbit would convey substantially greater disadvantage to the alliance? At present Russia is reasonably well separated from the Med. Losing Turkey from NATO would cede a couple useful squares on the chess board. Turkey could be much more useful to Russia than they seem inclined to be to us. Denying Russia that ally could be seen as sufficiently advantageous to keep them around.
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Re: October 2019: Turkey into Syria to Deal With Kurds
« Reply #112 on: December 03, 2019, 13:38:57 »
Might it be that Turkey firmly in Russia’s orbit would convey substantially greater disadvantage to the alliance? At present Russia is reasonably well separated from the Med. Losing Turkey from NATO would cede a couple useful squares on the chess board. Turkey could be much more useful to Russia than they seem inclined to be to us. Denying Russia that ally could be seen as sufficiently advantageous to keep them around.

Or as previously said (in 1951);

http://archives.nato.int/uploads/r/null/1/2/120391/SGM-1136-51_ENG_PDP.pdf
Quote
The aims and the organization of the Atlantic Pact are purely
defensive, for it is designed to safeguard member states against
the danger of external aggression. . . .

The Italian Government is of the opinion that, in order to
achieve this result, when issues arising from the Pact are examined,
paramount importance should be ascribed to anything that may contribute
to ensure the best possibilities of effective defense in
the event of an aggression. From this point of view there is no
doubt that the bastion represented by Asia Minor (Turkey) has the
same value for the South Mediterranean sector of NATO as the
Scandinavian bastion has for the Northern sector. The loss of the
former bastion would drive Atlantic defense back to the Central
Mediterranean, the same as the loss of the latter would drive it
back to the Channel. In both cases the defense of the Continent
would become extremely difficult and the whole system would be
weakened by the loss of points d'appui of the highest strategic
value.
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