Author Topic: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case  (Read 88703 times)

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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #850 on: April 04, 2019, 09:18:38 »
Thanks Remius. That takes some of the wind out of my LOL@Trudeau sails since it sounds like they planned to walk our irregardless.

But it still had an impact when you think about it.  Trudeau is supposed to have been a champion and ally for women.  Regardless of what their motivations were, I still think that there is a full gust blowing in those sails Jarnhammer.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #851 on: April 04, 2019, 09:37:43 »
Keep in mind the next generation of voters will not have the same brand loyalty previous generation had. How individuals perform will have a great effect. JT has irrevocably damaged his brand with younger voters and at an age where he could have had a long career. JWR comes out of this with a solid brand with the same set of voters and she is young enough to exploit that. Eventually we may see a move towards an Australian model, where the PM serves at the pleasure of their MP's.

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #852 on: April 04, 2019, 10:13:55 »
This whole "white men" thing is getting boring. 
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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #853 on: April 04, 2019, 11:01:42 »
This whole "white men" thing is getting boring.

Boring isn't the word I would use.  But it is getting old and tedious.  Tiresome? Annoying?
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #854 on: April 05, 2019, 10:43:48 »
An absolutely excellent article by Paul Wells at McLeans:

Quote
POLITICS
In the abandoned ruins of Ottawa
Paul Wells: How did the SNC-Lavalin scandal manage to rattle this government so badly? Because it reveals some truths to Canadians about this Prime Minister.
by Paul Wells Apr 4, 2019

Jody Wilson-Raybould’s and Jane Philpott’s place in or out of the Liberal caucus matters less than most of the two-month SNC-Lavalin drama. A parliamentary caucus is not a rules organization, it’s a trust organization. Liberals no longer trusted the two former ministers, in part because clearly neither trusts the Prime Minister. So out they went. How other people organize their clubs is their concern.

I’ll note a contradiction: in 2002, when the entire country knew Paul Martin was plotting to unseat a sitting Liberal prime minister, Paul Martin continued to sit as a member of the Liberal caucus. Ah yes, some Liberal friends remind me, but that’s because most of the caucus was in on Martin’s scheme. That’s true, and it raises stubborn and recurrent questions about the wisdom of Liberal caucuses. Members of Alcoholics Anonymous sometimes say, “My best thinking brought me here.” A Liberal caucus in the grip of its best thinking is a wonder to behold.

But onward. I’m left with questions from Wilson-Raybould’s recording of her December phone conversation with Michael Wernick, the soon-to-be-former clerk of the Privy Council. Sure, it’s a terrible thing when a woman records her 20th surreal conversation with people who insist they’re not pressuring her. Here’s her penalty: I’ll ignore what she said on that call and listen only to Wernick.

He describes an imminent, pressing economic crisis that has transfixed the Prime Minister of Canada. “Our intelligence from various sources,” he says, is that SNC’s board has asked consulting firms for options that could include “selling out to somebody else, moving—you know, various things.” All of this “seems to be real and not a bluff,” Wernick says.

Trudeau “wants to be able to say he has tried everything within the legitimate toolbox” to avert this disaster. He is “determined” and “firm.” “I think he is going to find a way to get it done one way or another.” He is in “that kinda mood.”

The conversation goes poorly. “I am going to have to report back before he leaves,” Wernick says. “He is in a pretty firm frame of mind about this, so I am a bit worried . . . . I just saw him a few hours ago and this is really important to him.” Fortunately, “He is still around tomorrow.”

And then, according to later replies to inquiries from both the Prime Minister’s Office and Trudeau himself, Wernick never breathed a word about this extraordinary conversation to the Prime Minister. Even though Trudeau was in Ottawa for a day after the clerk’s call with Wilson-Raybould. Even though telephones work in Whistler, where he vacationed following a pre-Christmas trip to Mali. Even though he was in the office for another day, back from holidays, before launching a cabinet shuffle.

What part of this sounds like the work habits of a serious Prime Minister?

If you, dear reader, were determined and firm and looking to get something done one way or another, if you were in that kinda mood, I bet you wouldn’t let three weeks go by without checking in on a file’s progress.

And then, if you switched out the deeply aggravating attorney general for a new one, say a solid white male McGill graduate like you and Gerry Butts—entirely by accident! It’s not as though that was the goal or anything!—I’m betting you wouldn’t let two more months go by without fixing the no-bluff 9,000-job problem.

And yet that’s what Justin Trudeau has done. The so-called deferred prosecution agreement that would have saved SNC from a trial, but that only an attorney general could order the public prosecutor to negotiate, remains available. At this writing, David Lametti hasn’t delivered the public order that would trigger its use. Now, of course, there’s been a lot going on. But was Trudeau only intent on action if he could be bold in secret? Was he only going to save those 9,000 jobs if it was easy? How thrilled are you to learn that a Prime Minister who’s determined and firm and in that kinda mood hasn’t actually done anything to get closer to effective action?

I ask because I’ve been struck by a peculiarity of this whole mess. It’s this: How did this scandal manage to rattle this government so profoundly? And the best answer I can find is this: Because it reveals truths about this Prime Minister that shake many Canadians’ confidence in him....

Read the rest here:

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/in-the-abandoned-ruins-of-ottawa/

 :cheers:
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Offline FSTO

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #855 on: April 05, 2019, 10:52:38 »
An absolutely excellent article by Paul Wells at McLeans:

Read the rest here:

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/in-the-abandoned-ruins-of-ottawa/

 :cheers:

I'd hate to see how this team would react to a real crisis like an Ice Storm in the St Lawrence/Ottawa River valleys, Floods in Manitoba or an Earthquake on the West Coast.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #856 on: April 05, 2019, 11:09:01 »
Easy. Blame Harper. Blame Global Warming. Blame toxic masculinity. Then hire SNC to coordinate the clean up.
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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #857 on: April 05, 2019, 11:14:36 »
An absolutely excellent article by Paul Wells at McLeans:

Read the rest here:

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/in-the-abandoned-ruins-of-ottawa/

 :cheers:

Good article.  Thanks.

Sums up my conundrum in the coming election.  Like Wells, my mind isn't made up yet.   

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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #858 on: April 05, 2019, 11:16:18 »
I'd hate to see how this team would react to a real crisis like an Ice Storm in the St Lawrence/Ottawa River valleys, Floods in Manitoba or an Earthquake on the West Coast.

Meh, all they have to do is just say go and the system takes over.
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #861 on: April 07, 2019, 18:21:39 »
There's about to be a shortage of  :pop:

Scheer says PM's lawyer threatened him with libel suit over SNC-Lavalin affair

 OTTAWA -- Andrew Scheer is challenging Justin Trudeau to follow through on a threat to sue him over his assertion that the prime minister politically interfered with the criminal prosecution of Montreal engineering giant SNC-Lavlin.

The Conservative leader revealed Sunday that he received a letter on March 31 from Trudeau's lawyer, Julian Porter, threatening a libel suit.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #862 on: April 07, 2019, 18:40:10 »
Team Trudeau would have expected Team Scheer to immediately run to the media to tell them about the libel suit which begs the question what's the Liberals true intention behind this move.
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Offline Jed

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #863 on: April 07, 2019, 18:45:56 »
Team Trudeau would have expected Team Scheer to immediately run to the media to tell them about the libel suit which begs the question what's the Liberals true intention behind this move.
.  Who can say what the next Liberal move will be? They are acting so irrationally lately, that they are so much smarter than the Conservatives or they are totally out in left field.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #864 on: April 07, 2019, 18:48:03 »
They are just baiting each other. Frig all of them, drama queens, every one of them.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #865 on: April 07, 2019, 18:51:49 »
This is madness on the part of the Liberal Party? PMO?

Being sued is a gift for the Conservatives. You cannot buy that kind of publicity, as a political party.

Lets say for a second this was not an idle threat. What happens when the Conservative Party lawyers begin discovery and truckloads of documents get requested and everyone in Cabinet is named as a witness.

The Liberals may be calculating that nothing can happen in court until after the election (after which they will quietly drop the whole thing), but the Conservatives have way deeper pockets and as the "victims" probably have way better fund raising potential.This can potentially bankrupt the Liberals in lawyer fees alone, right as an election occurs.

Unless, as Jarnhamar has pointed out, this is a diversion from something way worse the Liberals don't want anyone to see.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #866 on: April 07, 2019, 19:19:53 »
The discovery process for a libel suit need not be as complex as other forms of civil lawsuits. The process is designed to be somewhat expeditious. That being said....

"…An individual’s reputation is not to be treated as regrettable but unavoidable road kill on the highway of public controversy, but nor should an overly solicitous regard for personal reputation be permitted to “chill” freewheeling debate on matters of public interest…"

In addition to the public interest defence available to the leader of the opposition, there is also the defence of honest belief, and I'm not sure that they could be so successful on that one:

"Honest belief”, of course, requires the existence of a nexus or relationship between the comment and the underlying facts .... “could any man honestly express that opinion on the proved facts

Further:

"...The test is not whether the words impute negative qualities to the plaintiff, but whether, in the factual circumstances of the case, the public would think less of the plaintiff as a result of the comment.  Relevant factors to be considered in assessing whether a statement is defamatory include: whether the impugned speech is a statement of opinion rather than of fact; how much is publicly known about the plaintiff; the nature of the audience; and the context of the comment. "

The context here is, of course, politics alleging a criminal act by the Prime Minister and characterizing it de facto rather than opinion.  Not a wise move....
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Offline YZT580

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #867 on: April 07, 2019, 21:29:43 »
I tend to agree with SeaKing in that this is madness.  The entire issue would have died a natural death from lack of new materiel in about 2 weeks.  It would have gone from page 1 above the fold to the Life section and then disappeared.  This law suit stuff simply ensured that it remains front burner.  If the facts that have been proven are all there is to the story all Justin simply had to wait.  That he didn't says more about his immaturity and less about some possible nefarious liberal plot.  It is more likely that he simply has his mouth on automatic, you know, make statement then engage brain.  My  :2c:

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #868 on: April 07, 2019, 21:38:46 »
Don't forget the ongoing Norman prosecution.

The PCO/PMO/SNC case has left an awful lot of loose threads lying around for Ms Henein and her associates to tug on.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #869 on: April 07, 2019, 23:00:19 »
All the more reason to keep his mouth shut.  What is the old saying 'Better to keep your mouth closed and have people think you are Stupid/ guilty than to open it up and prove it beyond all doubt.

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #870 on: April 07, 2019, 23:33:30 »
Can't talk about it if the matter is before the courts, right?

This lawsuit is pocket change to trudeau. Cheap as hell if he can make Scheer shutup.

Mind, that only stops Scheer outside the House.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #871 on: April 08, 2019, 00:17:01 »
The discovery process for a libel suit need not be as complex as other forms of civil lawsuits. The process is designed to be somewhat expeditious. That being said....

"…An individual’s reputation is not to be treated as regrettable but unavoidable road kill on the highway of public controversy, but nor should an overly solicitous regard for personal reputation be permitted to “chill” freewheeling debate on matters of public interest…"

In addition to the public interest defence available to the leader of the opposition, there is also the defence of honest belief, and I'm not sure that they could be so successful on that one:

"Honest belief”, of course, requires the existence of a nexus or relationship between the comment and the underlying facts .... “could any man honestly express that opinion on the proved facts

Further:

"...The test is not whether the words impute negative qualities to the plaintiff, but whether, in the factual circumstances of the case, the public would think less of the plaintiff as a result of the comment.  Relevant factors to be considered in assessing whether a statement is defamatory include: whether the impugned speech is a statement of opinion rather than of fact; how much is publicly known about the plaintiff; the nature of the audience; and the context of the comment. "

The context here is, of course, politics alleging a criminal act by the Prime Minister and characterizing it de facto rather than opinion.  Not a wise move....

The largest libel award in Canadian history was $1.1 million. Even if the Sheer loses (not a certainty), his lawyer gets to drag the entire Liberal Party through the mud, for the entire run up to the october election. And the best Trudeau will be able manage? "Can't talk about it- it is before courts". Even if Trudeau wins- it it really isn't a win because it just confirms the impression that he is both petty and thin-skinned.

The best part? None of this gets counted as election spending and I am betting that Scheer has no trouble raising money to cover his legal bills. As I said earlier, this is a massive boon to the Conservatives and dumb politics for the Liberals. This all but guarantees that SNC Lavalin stays alive all summer, as an issue.

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #872 on: April 08, 2019, 01:58:30 »
there is also the defence of honest belief, and I'm not sure that they could be so successful on that one:

"Honest belief”, of course, requires the existence of a nexus or relationship between the comment and the underlying facts .... “could any man honestly express that opinion on the proved facts

Based on the facts available, there seems to be an awful lot of people in Canada who will and have expressed the same opinion, so I'm not sure how this one is a stretch... I would be happy to testify under oath that, based on the evidence available, I have honestly concluded that JT is corrupt, lied to Canadians, and attempted to politically interfere in a criminal case.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #873 on: April 08, 2019, 09:10:40 »
Anyway, do you really think Trudeau will tell the whole truth under oath at a trial?  Will it be his truth, the truth as he envisages it, the truth as he conjures up, the truth of a Liberal, and so on.

I expect zero truth.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 09:23:49 by Rifleman62 »
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #874 on: April 08, 2019, 09:11:55 »
The way I understand it so far, the suit would be by Trudeau personally against Scheer personally for comments Scheer made on social media and outside the house where he is not protected by Parliamentary privilege. It is, quite obviously, a SLAPP suit aimed at muzzling Scheer outside of the house  and in front of the media. I would expect similar threats to be made against others such as Bergen, Rempel and Polivere.
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