Author Topic: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case  (Read 71159 times)

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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #375 on: March 04, 2019, 17:06:39 »
Could be I’m wrong- for the time being, we’ll have to see if this turns into real momentum. The possibility also exists that if cabinet revolts hard and fast, that may allow for consolidation in time for the election. But a cabinet shakeup and a couple resignations eight months out is not a definite death knell for the current government.

In case it’s been lost or forgotten, I do hope to see the LPC defeated in the next election, but I’m still going to be pragmatic and objective as I watch what’s happening.

Part of this will be Gerald Butts and his testimony.  If it goes bad...

I heard a really good point on talk radio this aft.  JWR and Jane Philpott resigned on principle and not policy differences or because they themselves did something bad.  That resonates with people.
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Offline QV

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #376 on: March 04, 2019, 18:15:25 »
Could be I’m wrong- for the time being, we’ll have to see if this turns into real momentum. The possibility also exists that if cabinet revolts hard and fast, that may allow for consolidation in time for the election. But a cabinet shakeup and a couple resignations eight months out is not a definite death knell for the current government.

In case it’s been lost or forgotten, I do hope to see the LPC defeated in the next election, but I’m still going to be pragmatic and objective as I watch what’s happening.

Maybe.  Although, it's been many years since a sitting government has been rocked by this level of scandal...

While we are on predictions... If he doesn't just contradict JWR, I think it possible Gerry Butts will try and take full blame for all of this to save the PM.  But it's too late for that IMHO.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #377 on: March 04, 2019, 18:17:05 »
So do we get another MVA now? ;D

Better... The Minister Responsible for Spending Money (Public Services and Procurement Canada) has just been double-hatted as being also The Minister for Writing Cheques (President of the Treasury Board) - Carla Qualtrough -  Qhat type of Trough was that?
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Offline QV

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #378 on: March 04, 2019, 18:19:28 »
Better... The Minister Responsible for Spending Money (Public Services and Procurement Canada) has just been double-hatted as being also The Minister for Writing Cheques (President of the Treasury Board) - Carla Qualtrough -  Qhat type of Trough was that?
I didn't think you could 32 and 33?  ;)

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #379 on: March 04, 2019, 19:05:45 »
I didn't think you could 32 and 33?  ;)
You're not supposed to use political pressure to get your friends off the hook on federal bribery charges either, but here we are.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #380 on: March 04, 2019, 20:09:08 »
QQ: if you were Bill Morneau, what action could you take right now to reclaim/ recover your reputation? Just watching him so solemn faced waiting for his Lordship to appear at the Climate Change rally.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #381 on: March 04, 2019, 20:21:35 »
Morneau on Philpott's resignation:

Quote
Shortly after Cabinet minister and Liberal MP Jane Philpott resigned from her post, Finance Minister Bill Morneau commented on her resignation.

Jane Philpott is a close personal friend of Jody Wilson-Raybould. She took a decision, I respect her decision. She was a good colleague, and she’ll take the decision that makes the most sense to her,” said Morneau.

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/bill-morneau-says-philpott-resigned-because-she-was-a-close-personal-friend-with-jody-wilson-raybould/
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #382 on: March 04, 2019, 20:22:32 »
... If he doesn't just contradict JWR, I think it possible Gerry Butts will try and take full blame for all of this to save the PM.  But it's too late for that IMHO.
I'm going to put my loonie on the other side:  he's going to go down the, "at no time did I ever tell anyone to break the law - we were only looking for solutions" message track.

Also, paint me cynical, but remember as we hear more testimony that some say the difference between (1)  "I don't remember" and (2) "I don't recall" is that with (1), one looks in the filing cabinet that is one's memory, but there's no file to be found, while with (2), the file may or may not be there, but one chooses not to open the cabinet to look ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 09:54:57 by milnews.ca »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #383 on: March 04, 2019, 20:26:26 »
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #384 on: March 04, 2019, 20:30:01 »
You don’t think that’s too much of a low shot??
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #385 on: March 04, 2019, 20:32:24 »
WHAT ABOUT ALBERTA JOBS?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc-lavalin-entitled-dpa-1.5042822

A 'deferred prosecution agreement' would allow the firm to avoid criminal prosecution
- 4 Mar 19

A Liberal MP says his party believes the SNC-Lavalin is "entitled" (there's that word again) to a deferred prosecution agreement — a legal mechanism that would allow the Quebec engineering firm to avoid criminal prosecution. "Our belief is that this company is one that is, like its competitors around the world, entitled to a deferred prosecution agreement, like they would be able to have access to in the U.K.," Steven MacKinnon, parliamentary secretary to the minister of Public Services and Procurement, told CBC News's Power & Politics today.

"The government's adopted approach on this is one that has favoured jobs, it's one that has favoured pensioners, supply chains and a major Canadian company - all innocent victims of some corrupt management maybe a decade ago." The Gatineau MP was speaking in the immediate aftermath of Jane Philpott's stunning resignation from cabinet earlier today. In a letter to the prime minister, the now former Treasury Board president said she's lost confidence in the way the Trudeau government has handled the growing SNC-Lavalin scandal.

Last week, former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould told a Commons justice committee she faced heavy political pressure and veiled threats from top Liberal officials who wanted her to allow SNC-Lavalin to avoid a trial on bribery charges. SNC-Lavalin is facing corruption charges over contracts in Libya and was lobbying for a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) as an alternative to criminal prosecution. DPAs allow companies to avoid criminal prosecution by paying hefty fines and, in some cases, agreeing to outside monitoring.

During her testimony, Wilson-Raybould, who resigned from cabinet last month, recounted how Kathleen Roussel, the director of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada (PPSC), let her know in early September 2018 that she was rejecting the company's request to negotiate a deferred prosecution. MacKinnon pointed to legislation that allows the attorney general to overturn a decision made by the director of public prosecutions.

"We do have a disagreement here. We absolutely have a disagreement here and I think the current attorney general has said that, look you have to keep assessing the facts as these cases move along," he said. "But the fact is that we have 10,000 Canadians and their families and pensioners and suppliers and others who are not entitled to the same kind relief they would get if they were to work for an SNC-Lavalin competitor in the United States or in the United Kingdom ...

"The disagreement goes to how you see how Canada ought to approach major economic questions like the SNC-Lavalin issue. Do we do it like our OECD partners, do with these deferred prosecution arrangements, that have been widely discussed? Or do we do it with a ... perhaps more rigid approach?" Deferred prosecution agreements ​became law in Canada in September of 2018. The SNC-Lavalin criminal case is now at the preliminary hearing stage. The company has pleaded not guilty.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #386 on: March 04, 2019, 20:32:51 »
You don’t think that’s too much of a low shot??

It might be.  But that is what Macleans is going with, under the lead of Paul Wells.

I also recall that it was Macleans that cemented Harper's reputation as "Scary" with a comparable cover.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #387 on: March 04, 2019, 20:35:26 »
That’s true.
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #388 on: March 04, 2019, 20:55:46 »
Still above the fold @ the BBC as of ~20 minutes ago ...
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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #389 on: March 04, 2019, 20:57:55 »
I'm going to put my loonie on the other side:  he's going to go down the, "at no time did I ever tell anyone to break the law - we were only looking for solutions."

I think you're right.  This, along with stressing her political inexperience, business naivete and misinterpretation of the "advice" she received from the PM, PMO will be the response he will give.  This will set the stage for the new AG to issue the DPA as a "course correction" for the government.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #390 on: March 04, 2019, 21:52:06 »
I think you're right.  This, along with stressing her political inexperience, business naivete and misinterpretation of the "advice" she received from the PM, PMO will be the response he will give.  This will set the stage for the new AG to issue the DPA as a "course correction" for the government.

Perhaps. But she can point out the reverse: Neither Trudeau, Telford or Butts - not even Wernick - have ANY background or knowledge of law. They ALL come from a 'soft' arts or social sciences background. They have no claim on knowing law or ethics better than she does.

She delivered a classic, well prepared (note I didn't say "rehearsed') court like testimony-in-chief statement, with everything you need to make it believable. Can any of the following "witnesses" who come from an arts background (and probably believe they know better than her just because of where they rose in life in politics) make such a powerful impact in their testimony?

Personally, I doubt it very much. But we will see, won't we?  :nod:





This could be a lot of fun.

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #391 on: March 04, 2019, 23:27:26 »
It's very odd to me that a DPA could even be considered in this case at all. At my office, we're often dealing with historical files where someone comes in to report a matter 20, 30 sometimes even 50 years old - as a first report. If we were to successfully locate the subject and grounds exist for charges, I cannot lay charges under the Criminal Code of today for an incident from back then - I have to use the Criminal Code as it existed at the time. If SNC Lavalin successfully lobbied the government (as it would appear to be the case) in 2018 to change the law, shouldn't it only apply from when it received Royal Assent moving forward and not retroactively apply to offences in the past? That's always been my understanding of the law...


Maybe FJAG can weigh in here...
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Offline tomydoom

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #392 on: March 05, 2019, 02:41:25 »
It even made the news here in Ireland. RTÉ is the Irish equivalent to the CBC.




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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #393 on: March 05, 2019, 07:24:10 »
Just as a quick set up/head's up, here's who's speaking when tomorrow (Wed 6 Mar) ...
Quote
Notice of meeting
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights (JUST)
42nd Parliament, 1st Session
 
Meeting 137
Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 p.m.
Room 415, Wellington Building, 197 Sparks Street
Televised
 
Remediation Agreements, the Shawcross Doctrine and the Discussions Between the Office of the Attorney General and Government Colleagues

Witnesses
As an individual
 Gerald Butts ...
Quote
Notice of meeting
Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights (JUST)
42nd Parliament, 1st Session
 
Meeting 138
Wednesday, March 6, 2019, 2:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m.
Room 415, Wellington Building, 197 Sparks Street
Televised
 
Remediation Agreements, the Shawcross Doctrine and the Discussions Between the Office of the Attorney General and Government Colleagues

Witnesses
Department of Justice
• Nathalie G. Drouin, Deputy Minister of Justice and Deputy Attorney General of Canada
Privy Council Office
• Michael Wernick, Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet ...
Canada's Cable Public Affairs Channel usually has a good link to live feeds from these things.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 14:43:00 by milnews.ca »
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #394 on: March 05, 2019, 07:28:17 »
It's very odd to me that a DPA could even be considered in this case at all. At my office, we're often dealing with historical files where someone comes in to report a matter 20, 30 sometimes even 50 years old - as a first report. If we were to successfully locate the subject and grounds exist for charges, I cannot lay charges under the Criminal Code of today for an incident from back then - I have to use the Criminal Code as it existed at the time. If SNC Lavalin successfully lobbied the government (as it would appear to be the case) in 2018 to change the law, shouldn't it only apply from when it received Royal Assent moving forward and not retroactively apply to offences in the past? That's always been my understanding of the law...


Maybe FJAG can weigh in here...

My guess and it is only that, is that DPA is a sort of plea bargain mechanism.  So they can still be charged for something and prosecuted but the sentencing and plea bargain arrangement is what is different.

Imagine someone murdered a family at the time we had the death penalty.  That someone could be charged for a crime committed at that time.  But the sentence and plea bargain rules would be today's standard not the standard that applied back then no?
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Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #395 on: March 05, 2019, 07:30:12 »
Just as a quick set up/head's up, here's who's speaking when tomorrow (Wed 6 Mar) ...Canada's Cable Public Affairs Channel usually has a good link to live feeds from these things.

Interesting.

I'll be paying attention toe what the DM has to say...
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #396 on: March 05, 2019, 07:45:40 »
Interesting that the two who resigned are both members of regulated professions with standards for ethical behaviour.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #397 on: March 05, 2019, 07:52:42 »
https://globalnews.ca/news/5021267/trudeau-approval-rating-snc-lavalin-wilson-raybould/

March 4, 2019 9:42 pm

Most Canadians side with Wilson-Raybould, believe Trudeau has lost moral authority to govern: Ipsos poll

By Rahul Kalvapalle

A majority of Canadians are keeping tabs on the SNC-Lavalin affair and that doesn't bode well for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, according to a new Ipsos poll conducted exclusively for Global News.

If an election were held tomorrow, Trudeau would receive only 31 per cent of the decided popular vote - down three points from a couple of weeks ago - while Conservative Party Leader Andrew Scheer would receive 40 per cent, according to the poll of 1,000 Canadians carried out between March 1 and March 4.

That's the biggest lead the Conservatives have had since the previous election campaign - and that's despite the fact that the polling data was obtained before Treasury Board President Jane Philpott resigned from Trudeau's cabinet on Monday, following in the heels of former attorney general Jody Wilson-Raybould and principal secretary Gerald Butts.

"This is the first time we've actually seen the Conservative Party resuscitated and looking like they could potentially form the government," said Darrell Bricker, CEO of Ipsos Public Affairs.

"The Liberals, on the other hand, have been dropping precipitously over the space of the last few weeks. The question is have they hit bottom yet?"

The national approval figures are mirrored in Canada's largest province, Ontario, where the Conservatives sit at 40 per cent, nine points over the Liberals, who are at 31 per cent.

Crucially, the Tories enjoy a commanding lead in the vote-rich 905 region surrounding Toronto.

<snip>

The polling also reveals that the ongoing SNC-Lavalin affair is directly responsible for Trudeau's flagging support.

Sixty-four per cent of Canadians say they're now following the issue - that's 15 points up from two weeks ago.

Most of them also say they believe the issue deserves all the attention it has been getting, compared to less than a third who say the matter is being blown out of proportion.

<snip>

A majority of Canadians - 55 per cent - also say it's going to influence their voting decisions in this year's federal election. That includes nearly one in five Liberal voters.

<snip>

"[Canadians] are coming to conclusions, and the conclusions they're coming to relate to the character of the main protagonist," said Bricker.

<snip>

Nearly a quarter of Liberal voters say they believe Trudeau should step aside while the SNC-Lavalin affair is investigated, with 73 per cent of Liberals agreeing that the RCMP should probe the issue and lay charges against politicians and bureaucrats where appropriate.

<snip>

Bricker says Trudeau is faced with three options: tough it out until the next election, step aside and let someone else lead the Liberal Party or call a snap election to clear the air.

Approval rating numbers suggest Trudeau would be well-advised not to take up Option 3.

<snip>

Offline Loachman

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #398 on: March 05, 2019, 07:58:07 »
Imagine someone murdered a family at the time we had the death penalty.  That someone could be charged for a crime committed at that time.  But the sentence and plea bargain rules would be today's standard not the standard that applied back then no?

I have seen statutory rape cases where the age-of-consent in place at the time of the offence, as opposed to the the age-of-consent in place at the time of the charge or trial, was what the court considered.

Sentence is another matter, at least in the case of a punishment not currently available.

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #399 on: March 05, 2019, 08:06:43 »
I have seen statutory rape cases where the age-of-consent in place at the time of the offence, as opposed to the the age-of-consent in place at the time of the charge or trial, was what the court considered.

Sentence is another matter, at least in the case of a punishment not currently available.

That is sort of what I was getting at.  The crime and when it was perpetrated is one thing.  The sentencing and plea bargain system is another.

But I am out of my lane on this.
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