Author Topic: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case  (Read 82186 times)

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Offline Haggis

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #825 on: April 03, 2019, 09:38:36 »
Now...I don't think that JT is going to be able to sell any of this to the Canadian Public.
  The issuance of the DPA will be sold as proof that JWR was wrong and the PM was right.  This may recuperate lost support in Québec.  Will it be enough to push the polls back into Liberal majority territory is anyone's guess.

My guess is that the only way he can win next election is that if the opposition makes itself look like a worse option that the LPC.
The government representative in the Senate has proposed a schedule to see 11 Bills voted on before the house rises.  If successful, the Liberals will be able to say "look how much we've accomplished despite the Opposition's efforts to stop us!"
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #826 on: April 03, 2019, 10:15:06 »
Listening to Minister Champagne: the DPA is on the table if not actually imminent.
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #827 on: April 03, 2019, 10:24:55 »
To be honest, her (their) expulsion looks to be caucus driven at this point. 

So they likely gave him a reason and Trudeau is going to be the face of it for sure but I think the caucus had finally had enough of the damage that they probably feel that they are better off without them than with them. 

Someone here said she overplayed her hand.  I agree with that. 

Not disputing the fact that what the PMO and SNC Lavalin is all worse.  But I think that JWRs political aspirations are over regardless of where she tries to land.

Now...I don't think that JT is going to be able to sell any of this to the Canadian Public.  My guess is that the only way he can win next election is that if the opposition makes itself look like a worse option that the LPC.

She definitely has a future in BC politics and in FN politics. It be interesting if JT has to face her as the head of the AFN.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #828 on: April 03, 2019, 10:41:24 »
I will repeat myself: The LPC does what's best for the LPC, not what's best for Canada. I cringe, absolutely cringe, every time Trudeau says  "Canadians". He actually means what he and Liberals think is the natural governing party.

From the article: ...." there is only one principle — blind loyalty to the leader.... " and " ...unwilling to sacrifice her principles so readily on the altar of partisanship.... ". Sounds like what was said during the Nuremberg Trials - http://Superior:  Superior orders, often known as the Nuremberg defense, lawful orders or by the German phrase Befehl ist Befehl ("an order is an order"), is a plea in a court of law that a person—whether a member of the military, law enforcement, a firefighting force, or the civilian population—not be held guilty for actions ordered by a superior officer or an official.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-liberals-accomplish-nothing-but-vindictiveness-for-vindictivenesss-sake


The rotting of the Liberal soul
National Post - 3 Apr 19 - Andrew Coyne -
      This is pure vindictiveness

“Ultimately the choice that is before you,” Jody Wilson- Raybould pleaded with her caucus colleagues, in a letter written hours before they were to pass sentence on her, “is about what kind of party you want to be a part of, what values it will uphold, the vision that animates it, and indeed the type of people it will attract and make it up.” But they made that choice long ago. They knew what kind of party they wanted to be a part of from the moment they accepted their nominations; indeed, were they not the type of person that party attracts they would not have been recruited for it. It is the kind of party, and person, that unquestioningly puts loyalty to party before principle — and mercilessly punishes those who do not.

So on the question of whether to expel the former minister of justice and attorney general — along with the former Treasury Board president, Jane Philpott — for the crime of denouncing the attempt, by the prime minister and senior government officials, to interfere with a criminal prosecution, there could have been little doubt how they would vote. Whether they chose to shoot the messengers so spontaneously, over Justin Trudeau’s objections, as some reports have claimed — they were “determined to take the matter into their own hands,” according to a Canadian Press story, as if MPS were so eager to prove their obedience to the leader as to be willing to defy him — or whether they did so under orders doesn’t much matter. The rotting of the soul is the same either way.

We can now see, if it were not already apparent, the moral compass by which the prime minister and his caucus steer. The scandal in the Snc-lavalin affair is, by this reckoning, not the monthslong campaign to subvert the independence of the attorney general and, through her, to force the independent director of public prosecutions to drop charges of fraud and corruption against a longtime Liberal party contributor, but the opposition to it.

Traditional political theory teaches that the executive branch of government is responsible to the legislative. It is now clearer than ever that the reverse more nearly applies: members of the Liberal caucus plainly see it as their role, not to hold the government to account, but rather their fellow MPS — on behalf of the government. When wrongdoing by those high in government is alleged by a pair of whistleblowers, their first thought is to root out the whistleblowers. Even when presented with incontrovertible evidence, in the form of an audio recording, that the clerk of the privy council, Michael Wernick, threatened the former attorney general with dismissal if she did not bend to the PM’S will, and that she repeatedly and explicitly protested against this “political interference” — on both points contrary to his testimony before a parliamentary committee — the prime minister and his camp followers profess themselves outraged, not at what the tape reveals, but that it exists.

No such outrage attended the release of a near- verbatim transcript of a later conversation between the former attorney general and the prime minister, based on notes taken by a person who was not even ( so far as she was aware) privy to the call: the prime minister’s former principal secretary, Gerald Butts. Why is a surreptitiously obtained transcript (which confirms, not confounds, her testimony) acceptable, while a surreptitiously obtained tape is not? The objection would appear to be that the latter is more accurate.

So the charge is a pretext. What has agitated Liberal MPS is not the former attorney general’s recording of a conversation she correctly anticipated would be improper and could have guessed would be denied, or her failure to alert the prime minister at whose behest it had taken place ( and who could not fail to have been informed of its contents), but rather that she has contradicted and embarrassed the leader. Or rather no: I suspect what truly outrages them is the sight of a person of conscience, unwilling to sacrifice her principles so readily on the altar of partisanship. For those who can still remember what that was like, it must be deeply shaming. For the rest, there is only one principle — blind loyalty to the leader — in which cause they are prepared to sacrifice any number of colleagues.

We should understand, not only how noxious this is, but how unusual. Only in Canada can you be kicked out of the party for disobeying the leader — because only in Canada has the party been so wholly subsumed by the leader, to the point that it exists more or less as an extension of his persona. The prime minister of Great Britain has suffered multiple coup attempts, without any such purges. Because in Britain it is understood that the leader serves the party, rather than the other way around.

Yet it is exactly that sort of leader- dominated, centralized politics that created this mess. Only a leader who was effectively accountable to no one could have so lost sight of the relevant ethical boundaries as to attempt to shut down a prosecution — for any reason, let alone the nakedly partisan purposes alleged. Only a leader surrounded by sycophants could have imagined that the past seven weeks of denial, deflection and smears could succeed in rescuing his reputation.

Or perhaps that is not the point. It is often said that the coverup is worse than the crime. Worse than a coverup, however, is the kind of open attempt to confuse the issue we have been witnessing. Since his initial, lawyerly non- denial, the prime minister has not much bothered to pretend he did not do what he is accused of — he merely insists there was nothing wrong with it. The object: to corrupt, not just the administration of justice, but our collective sense of right and wrong.

Still, it’s hard to see what is accomplished by this latest bout of thuggery — not only expelling Wilson- Raybould and Philpott, but revoking their nominations. It seems to be motivated by little more than sheer delight in retribution: vindictiveness for vindictiveness’s sake. And yet they are not one whit diminished by it; only the prime minister is.

- mod edit to add/fix article link -
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 11:02:23 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #829 on: April 03, 2019, 11:37:37 »
How palatable will a DPA be with this revelation?

SNC-Lavalin insider's bribery allegations spark probe by Crown agency that loaned the firm billions


Export Development Canada has hired outside legal counsel to review some of its dealings with SNC-Lavalin. The review comes after a company insider told CBC News the engineering giant secured billions in loans from the Crown agency over the years, some of which he alleges was intended to pay bribes.

CBC Link

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #830 on: April 03, 2019, 12:06:45 »
I saw this type of fiasco/scenario coming before the election. Back then, I was an outlier. Liars and thieves I said. I got, horrible little man you are, in return. A terrible person for treating liberals as I did/do. I tied them early on to big corporations, shady deals and outright ignorant arrogance. Ridicule followed.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

I am completely ambivalent at these goings on now, dispassionate, so to speak. This was no surprise and it was fullyexpected. The exact scenario may not have been forecast, but the illegalities, smug indifference and ethics violations were writ large from the beginning for anyone that wanted to take anything other than a passing glance or ignored the MSM propaganda machine.

Canadians are still not passionate enough to rid ourselves of these carpetbaggers. Someone else will do it. ***** and complain while walking around like baboons in heat displaying for the liberals government to take advantage.

I feel vindicated.  ;D
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #831 on: April 03, 2019, 12:53:29 »
This whole thing makes me feel like mamy roles in government must be seperated out, AG should be appointed, not by the PM but by a 2/3 majority of the justice committee. The govoner general should also be less of a formality and more an effective executive branch. While in theory she could call an election right not the GG is more at the beck and call of the PM. A full public inquiry into the dealings of the LPC are also in order.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #832 on: April 03, 2019, 13:51:27 »
I still don't know that I wouldn't rather have these "carpetbaggers" in power over Sheer's CPC, or... those other guys.

Maybe that's why I would've voted Clinton. :dunno:

I look forward to the CPC putting forth some form of actual platform. Maybe I'll vote Green this year... :vomit:
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #833 on: April 03, 2019, 14:28:26 »


Trudeau, Scheer shunned as some Daughters of the Vote attendees turn backs, walk out on speeches


https://globalnews.ca/news/5126284/justin-trudeau-feminist-daughters-of-the-vote/



Headline says Trudeau and Scheer shunned but the body of the story suggests it was just Trudeau.
Innocent mistake I'm sure eh?


Quote
Trudeau was the last of the leaders to speak following first Green Party Leader Elizabeth May, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh and Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer. As he did, dozens of the delegates rose and turned their backs to him.


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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #834 on: April 03, 2019, 14:32:40 »
Headline says Trudeau and Scheer shunned but the body of the story suggests it was just Trudeau.
Except for this bit of the story ;) ...
Quote
... In contrast, several of the delegates walked out of a speech by Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer ...
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #835 on: April 03, 2019, 14:34:03 »
Except for this bit of the story ;) ...

Ah, thanks! Looks like the innocent mistake is mne lol

Does the delegates mean the young girls walked on on Scheer too or was that other politicians that walked out?
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #836 on: April 03, 2019, 14:38:00 »
Ah, thanks! Looks like the innocent mistake is mne lol
Hey, wouldn't have been the first headline that doesn't match the story, given different people usually do the writing of each.

Does the delegates mean the young girls walked on on Scheer too or was that other politicians that walked out?
I read it as the girls leaving.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #837 on: April 03, 2019, 14:39:27 »
Why would they walk out on Scheer?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 14:52:04 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #838 on: April 03, 2019, 14:49:59 »
Pee break. They always go in a pack.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #839 on: April 03, 2019, 17:04:27 »
He continued, adding that “there is never going to be an absolute one side or another. There are always going to be multiple voices.”  This is Trudeau's failing.  There is only one 'truth' never multiples thereof.  That is why courts decide guilty or innocent.   And I don't believe that he is capable of understanding let alone speaking to the notion of being truthful

Offline Lumber

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #840 on: April 03, 2019, 18:14:50 »
He continued, adding that “there is never going to be an absolute one side or another. There are always going to be multiple voices.”  This is Trudeau's failing.  There is only one 'truth' never multiples thereof.  That is why courts decide guilty or innocent.   And I don't believe that he is capable of understanding let alone speaking to the notion of being truthful

Disagree... from a political standpoint.

I'm pro social liberalism but also pro economic conservatism. Unfortunately, out of our two main parties, one is both economically and socially conservative, and the other is both economically and socially liberal. Ok thats a gross generalization, but my point is this. There are a lot of people who think like me in Canada, and we have to decide between the two. Some people will decide that social justice is more important (i.e. it is the "truth") and choose the socially liberal party, while others will see economic prosperity as more important (i.e. the truth) and chose the fiscally responsible party.

To me, that's what Trudeau means by multiple truths. I mean, they're all liars anyway, why get mixed up with the semantics?

The key point is, there is no perfect party, and all of us have to make compromises when we vote. You don't have the right to tell me or anyone what my particular priorities are, and therefore, the truth behind my vote is just as valid as the truth behind yours.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #841 on: April 03, 2019, 18:30:27 »
Pee break. They always go in a pack.

No misogyny there
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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #842 on: April 03, 2019, 18:41:05 »
No misogyny there

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny

Beside the fact that there's no hatred indicated in the post, only an attempt at a humorous life observation, I didn't know Milnet.ca needed a GBA+/Harassment advisor. Do you need another job title for PER points next year or something?

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #843 on: April 03, 2019, 19:01:11 »
No misogyny there

With a wife of 50 years (She who must be obeyed), 2 daughters, 3 grand daughters, no none,
Quote
and (based on probabilities certainties) am likely Senior to you
(CRA in 2007),
Quote
and I do not feel compelled in the slightest
to atone to you.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 19:11:18 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #844 on: April 03, 2019, 19:10:39 »
Public interest is the first thing that comes to my mind when I think Liberals  :nod:


Justice department memo says Ottawa has wiggle room to allow SNC-Lavalin to bid on federal contracts even if convicted
OTTAWA—The Liberal government could invoke a “public interest” exception that would allow SNC-Lavalin to avoid a 10-year federal contract ban even if it is criminally convicted, according to a justice department memo.

Yet the justice department advice, which had been requested by the Privy Council Office (PCO) but never delivered, says the reasons to grant such an exemption are “narrow.”

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2019/04/03/justice-department-memo-says-ottawa-has-wiggle-room-to-allow-snc-lavalin-to-bid-on-federal-contracts-even-if-convicted.html
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #845 on: April 03, 2019, 20:06:24 »
The key point is, there is no perfect party,

There is no Liberal or Conservative way to fix a sewer.  :)

You don't have the right to tell me or anyone what my particular priorities are, and therefore, the truth behind my vote is just as valid as the truth behind yours.

Until I retired on my 55th birthday, my particular priorities were fair compensation, benefits, pension, staffing and equipment, decent working conditions etc.

Our union had a simple, non-partisan philosophy when endorsing candidates – We supported politicians who supported us.

At the same time, the union respected the right of every member to vote for the candidate(s) of their choice.

No one, including the union, had the right to tell you how to vote.

Offline YZT580

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #846 on: April 03, 2019, 21:18:40 »
Lumber, glad you added 'from a political' to your statement.  Unfortunately for Trudeau this is not a political issue instead this is an issue where true truth was required and he blew it and has shown that he doesn't give a damn that he did, in fact his attitude indicates that he is totally p****d that the press, whom he thought he had bought, has seen fit to draw attention to his misconduct.  He has no (evident) moral conscience  about either lying or attempting to circumvent the law, demonstrating his contempt for parliament and for the justice system.  He is totally amoral and totally unfit to lead.  Tell me, would the services tolerate an officer who had been caught out in this fashion? 

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #847 on: April 03, 2019, 21:30:21 »
Lumber, glad you added 'from a political' to your statement.  Unfortunately for Trudeau this is not a political issue instead this is an issue where true truth was required and he blew it and has shown that he doesn't give a damn that he did, in fact his attitude indicates that he is totally p****d that the press, whom he thought he had bought, has seen fit to draw attention to his misconduct.  He has no (evident) moral conscience  about either lying or attempting to circumvent the law, demonstrating his contempt for parliament and for the justice system.  He is totally amoral and totally unfit to lead.  Tell me, would the services tolerate an officer who had been caught out in this fashion?

Why simply tolerate when you can promote them?

Offline Remius

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #848 on: April 04, 2019, 09:02:02 »
Why would they walk out on Scheer?

I listened to sound bites from some of these young women on the radio this morning.  There was lot about oppression for women and especially women of colour and not conforming to the image of white men in politics or something like that. 

That is your answer.  Those that walked out or turned around would have done so to any white man talking about women in politics.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case
« Reply #849 on: April 04, 2019, 09:10:28 »
I listened to sound bites from some of these young women on the radio this morning.  There was lot about oppression for women and especially women of colour and not conforming to the image of white men in politics or something like that. 

That is your answer.  Those that walked out or turned around would have done so to any white man talking about women in politics.

Thanks Remius. That takes some of the wind out of my LOL@Trudeau sails since it sounds like they planned to walk our irregardless.
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