Author Topic: 8 Shot in Toronto  (Read 6161 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2018, 19:21:31 »
Quote from: JesseWZ
Amen. When I was overseas, a number of folks opted to carry pistols instead of rifles in the camp (whether this was for convenience, LCF, availability or what have you). Most folks outside of trades whom carried and fired the/a pistol regularly (either the Sig, or our old friend the Browning) performed abhorrently at the range in both drills and abilities.

Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15'000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2018, 19:36:23 »
My IPSC instructor shoots about 40,000rds a year, worn out about 8 guns and figures he has shot a couple of million rds altogether. For awhile there I was going through 1,000rds a month at the range myself. I can shoot pistol despite my army training.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2018, 21:58:03 »
I don't have recent hard data, but anecdotally most of Ontario's crime guns are being smuggled in from the US. Not too hard to move stuff across the border given how perfunctory border checks are, and a clean gun from the states can get quadruple the price on the street...

perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2018, 22:05:36 »
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566

Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2018, 22:13:58 »
Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.

So, a whole 22 hours after the incident before someone laid this at the feet of the Prime Minister.  Impressive restraint that shows enormous respect for the victims.  Well done.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2018, 23:14:25 »
He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2018, 23:30:49 »
He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.

Which some knob already did not all that long ago in Toronto...guess he didn't want to look like a copycat.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2018, 00:20:51 »
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2018, 03:00:26 »
‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.

Thanks Bri. Sorry I'm late here. All my portable screens are acting wonky. If I keep losing things, I might have to dust off the desktop.

Anyway, I appreciate the response. Ok, let me see if I can do this.

I saw your comment, in the light that started us, and fired a cheap shot back to you.

In light of your para 1 explanation, perhaps we're  both at fault.

Had I known your original intent, the shot would not have been taken.

If you want, I can try dig and erase all vestiges of the conversation and you can edit your original one to yourself correct word. How's that?

I retire from enforcement tomorrow and mean no disrespect to any in our professional family.

Being in spite. I'll withdraw that part of my comment as it does none of us any favours, but that's your call.

So, maybe your comment "very heavily hard right bias that we have all become accustomed to over the years here." Is not quite as accurate as you think. Either the outside, politically correct groupspeak here, or our inside "we know what you really mean one." 41+ years of serving the Crown, I can speak pretty good beurocrat.
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 03:11:26 by recceguy »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2018, 11:23:04 »
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

I was underwhelmed by the CBSA types I worked with out here. One of my current co-workers worked for them as well, made for interesting stories. Also a CBSA Regional Director taught my G220 Management course and gave us a detailed lesson on how to fire employees, seems a few of his had interesting taste in porn which they used work computers to view. Like any organization there are good people struggling to make things work right, but i suspect it is the nature of the culture there that was the main issue.

As far as CCW goes, we should also be allowing off-duty cops to carry, that should be a no-brainer. For the civilian, a restricted PAL, IPSC Black Badge and have them take a course designed for the permit covering shooting techniques, holsters and legal issue. They must also qualify on the range twice a year. 

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 13:29:30 »
Honestly for self defence you can't beat a revolver.

Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2018, 16:11:05 »
Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.

Good luck sticking your hand between the hammer and the frame of a revolver in the middle of a fight. And hypothetically even if you could do it just remember that a semi-automatic pistol would easily been pushed out of battery long before this point. Also don't forget that if you did manage to get your hand in on that revolver and they got it out of your hand all they have to do is pull the trigger again. With the semi-automatic pistol they would likely have to at least rack the slide again to get it functioning again.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2018, 17:01:49 »
Close in, any firearm can be defeated. The reactionary gap is 21 feet. Unless you're pointed at the subjects head, you fire the instant they take off and score a hit, they're going to close the gap and you're in a hand to hand fight. Trying to control a gun by blocking the hammer and cylinder is kind of dumb. Could try the pushing the slide back on the HiPower trick and see if it works...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 17:57:12 »
Some common themes.

Quote


Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”



https://www.google.ca/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-was-danforth-attack-terror-or-terrorism/amp
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 18:00:41 »
To be honest, I don't know why terrorism and mentally ill have to be mutually exclusive. Being willing to take other human lives, or burn people alive in cages does not sound mentally stable to me.

Offline Colin P

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2018, 18:35:12 »
Some common themes.

Considering this I would be surprised if he had a PAL

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2018, 18:44:37 »
Considering this I would be surprised if he had a PAL

I can almost guarantee he does not have a PAL. Most likely positive FIP on cpic/cni which would block him from getting through any paperwork for a PAL.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2018, 18:53:04 »
Pushing the mental health + gun problem angle. 

Quote
"The police are doing their best, but they're operating under extraordinarily difficult circumstances to deal with these guns," the mayor said. "We'll see what they conclude from this case, but it's evidence of a gun problem, clearly."




I seen some pictures on FB and Twitter of a profile with someone with the same name that look like they're from an ISIS training camp. Won't post them until it seems like there's more evidence of a connection than just a name.

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Offline Haggis

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2018, 18:54:12 »
Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15,000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.

Sometimes, the display of a CCW holder's firearm can deescalate an encounter better than firing a shot.

The other thing that gets overlooked in the CCW debate is judgement.  Knowing how to shoot is important.  Knowing WHEN to shoot, or, equally when NOT to shoot. is sometimes more important than marksmanship and pistol handling which is the focus of much of the CCW debate.

I had an interesting and shocking discussion with an American friend who is a CCW permit holder in a "shall issue" state.  i asked him if his state required any type of training.  The answer was "no".  I asked if he had any liability insurance (state or private) to rely on should he be sued after a shooting.  he said "I suppose my house insurance would cover me."

Another friend, an expat Canadian and former Infantry Sgt is also a CCW holder in a different state.  His state requires he demonstrate dry and live fire proficiency, participate in judgement scenarios and show proof of liability insurance.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 19:05:49 by Haggis »
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2018, 18:56:14 »
What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2018, 19:18:11 »
What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.

Push the slide out of battery.

I was talking revolvers. The technique I described is a common one. Regardless of what others may think. Something that was  taught to me over 40 years ago that I have seen on many other occasions.
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Offline Larry Strong

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2018, 19:21:48 »
Interesting article......

Quote
The man who has presented himself as the point of contact for the family of Faisal Hussain is a professional activist who has reportedly committed himself to “framing a new narrative of Muslims in Canada” and creating a “national political movement.”

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement?video_autoplay=true


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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2018, 20:17:37 »
Quote
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale says there is no known connection between the Toronto shooting suspect and national security concerns, and that the Trudeau government is prepared to consider a proposal to ban handguns.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-feds-prepared-to-consider-proposal-to-ban-handguns-goodale-says/

Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.
Maybe police were talking to the shooter about his grammar or posting memes.
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2018, 21:28:59 »
Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.

Joe Warmington over at the Toronto Sun seems to be saying something different, however, what he is reporting has not been confirmed.

Quote
WARMINGTON: Was Danforth attack terror, or terrorism?

Joe Warmington Updated:July 24, 2018 10:12 AM EDT

It was terror on the Danforth no question.

But was it terrorism?

In the hours following the evil carnage that took the lives of two girls, just 10 and 18 and wounded 14 others in a merciless flurry of gunfire along the restaurant-lined streets of Greektown, a complicated picture is emerging of 29-year-old Faisal Hussain, who also died after exchanging gunfire with police.

His family released a statement to CBC News expressing their “deepest condolences” to victims and their families,  saying their son struggled with “severe mental health challenges.“

Meanwhile, my law-enforcement sources confirm investigators are looking at every avenue — including a potential jihadi-inspired mission.

Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”

He was also known to hang out behind his building at 43 Thorncliffe Park Blvd. with a group of 20 friends.

“Police were called once because they thought Faisal was carrying a gun,” said someone who was there. “No gun was found.”

Meanwhile, Hussain’s family emailed a statement to CBC News outlining a life-long struggle with mental illness, depression and psychosis.

“We are utterly devastated by the incomprehensible news that our son was responsible for the senseless violence and loss of life that took place on the Danforth,” the statement read.

“While we did our best to seek help for him throughout his life of struggle and pain, we could never imagine that this would be his devastating and destructive end.

“Our hearts are in pieces for the victims and for our city as we all come to grips with this terrible tragedy. We will mourn those who were lost for the rest of our lives.”

A neighbour living near the apartment where Hussain lived with his parents said Faisal told him he previously worked in a bakery and as a grocer. While some friends said he was “not at all radical,” others said he was more interested in Islamic discussions “when there were more people around.”

At the 65 Mussallah Mosque near the building, Abubaker Patel said he knew Faisal’s father well, calling him “the nicest guy in the world.” The elder Hussain is in Sunnybrook Hospital and his other son has been in a coma for the past year, Patel said.

Faisal, he suggested, has lived alone in the apartment in the meantime.

Sources say the deceased shooter’s personal life is being explored — including searching his family’s residence in Unit 707 in the Thorncliffe apartment building.

Police executed a search warrant Monday and were set to hunt for what they were told could be a stockpile of weapons and perhaps explosives. They were also interested in computers and hard drives.

While police made clear they have not ruled out any motives, the investigation will undoubtedly uncover the broken pieces of a life that ended in senseless violence and death.

Little comfort to his victims, or to a city struggling to make sense of this tragedy.

jwarmington@postmedia.com

Article Link



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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2018, 21:46:44 »
I thought the family’s statement about this shooter and his mental illness was released quickly and IMO was well worded.......

Edit to add:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement

I’m starting to get a tad upset on how our government and media molly coddle terrorists and criminals.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 22:13:53 by Hamish Seggie »
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