Author Topic: 8 Shot in Toronto  (Read 5844 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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8 Shot in Toronto
« on: July 22, 2018, 23:50:06 »
When I saw the headline I thought it may have been Chicago scary that it happened in Toronto,a place I thought was safe.My prayers are with those injured and I hope there will be a speedy recovery.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/multiple-people-shot-outside-restaurant-in-toronto-police-say/ar-BBKXTCL?ocid=spartanntp

Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 00:40:15 »
1 dead, 13 more wounded including a little girl. Police responded and exchanged fire with the shooter, who is also dead. There’s video of the shooter walking down the street, turning and shooting into a restaurant... So at first glance, an active shooter stopped in the act by police.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 07:09:42 »
White male 29 identified as shooter. Police currently withholding name.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 07:15:27 »
White male 29 identified as shooter. Police currently withholding name.

They’ll be thoroughly and quickly ripping his life apart looking for any links to anything concerning, potentially e exciting search warrants on his residence and other properties of interest, etc.

I would guess we’ll see a mid morning press conference that will mostly just confirm what we already know, with more to follow once the name leaks, which it probably quickly will.
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Offline EpicBeardedMan

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 07:17:41 »
"Nearby at Danforth and Logan, police officers moved bystanders back from the area, saying they had to detonate a package. It’s not clear what was detonated. Police have not released any information about what officers found."

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/toronto/article-one-dead-13-injured-gunman-killed-in-toronto-mass-shooting/
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Online mariomike

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 09:32:30 »
That section of the Danforth ( between Broadview Ave. and Jones Ave. ) is shut down every second weekend in August for a festival.

Attendance is estimated at 1.6 million people.

Be interesting to see how many show up this year.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:38:55 by mariomike »

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 09:38:32 »
Your average citizen is frozen in place even though the bad guy has to reload.The only heroes here are the police that are willing to take down a bad guy to save lives.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2018, 11:48:29 »
New York city has 34'000 police officers for a population of 8.5 million,  half as many police officers as all of Canada, around 69'000 according to statscan, for a population of 38 million.

Toronto should be no where near NYCs crime rate.

I hope the police do a great job tracking down where the gun came from, if he wasn't a legal gun owner,  and hammer the crap out of everyone even remotely involved.

I find it's grabbing low hanging fruit when "gun violence" is used. Toronto has a crime problem which includes gangs and llegal guns.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2018, 13:26:12 »
Hand guns aren't easy to get right ?

Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2018, 13:36:33 »
Hand guns aren't easy to get right ?

On the street they increasingly are. Time will tell where this one came from.
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2018, 15:27:44 »
I'd be quite happy if started holding the illegal gun dealers much more accountable.

If an illegal gun you sold was used in a murder = Automatic 10 years.

And before the naysayers jump in and start complaining about "What about the UHaul dealers?", it's apples and oranges.

One is renting a legal good which has many legal uses.  The other is selling an illegal item which only has illegal applications.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2018, 16:18:16 »
I'd be quite happy if started holding the illegal gun dealers much more accountable.

If an illegal gun you sold was used in a murder = Automatic 10 years.

And before the naysayers jump in and start complaining about "What about the UHaul dealers?", it's apples and oranges.

One is renting a legal good which has many legal uses.  The other is selling an illegal item which only has illegal applications.

I dont think any of my fellow gun loving folks would have any issue with any illegal gun dealers being prosecuted to the fullest.

These miscreants and their work only tarnishes legal firearms owners and put us in a very bad light. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 18:17:57 by Halifax Tar »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2018, 16:32:34 »
I don't have recent hard data, but anecdotally most of Ontario's crime guns are being smuggled in from the US. Not too hard to move stuff across the border given how perfunctory border checks are, and a clean gun from the states can get quadruple the price on the street...
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Offline Colin P

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2018, 16:40:21 »
A study done about 10-15 years ago put it at 85% of the crime guns were smuggled in. The CBSA was finding about 1300guns out of the 3% of cargo getting searched.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2018, 17:28:20 »
I'd be quite happy if started holding the illegal gun dealers much more accountable.

If an illegal gun you sold was used in a murder = Automatic 10 years.

And before the naysayers jump in and start complaining about "What about the UHaul dealers?", it's apples and oranges.

One is renting a legal good which has many legal uses.  The other is selling an illegal item which only has illegal applications.

Depending on how you look at it all firearms are illegal and the government gives you permission to break the law if you pay them  ;D

I mostly agree that the UHaul argument can be apples and oranges but it can also support the argument over how easy a determined murderer can kill people without a gun.

I wonder if we will see common factors in this case like lots of ignored warning signs, criminal record, violent social media posts etc..

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2018, 17:46:53 »
Perhaps allowing certain citizens to carry concealed might be good, start allowing CF members as they are familiar with weapons.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2018, 17:57:19 »
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/07/23/shooter-on-the-danforth-was-firing-like-someone-in-a-video-game-witness-says.html

The religion of peace strikes again?

Quote
Of the 15 victims, eight were female.

Wonder why the star felt the need to point this out.
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Offline EpicBeardedMan

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2018, 18:06:12 »
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2018, 18:08:04 »
Perhaps allowing certain citizens to carry concealed might be good, start allowing CF members as they are familiar with weapons.

Their 'familiarity' with weapons does not, to mind, extend to any particular degree of expertise. A small number of CAF members are pretty experienced and proficient with pistols. The rest might occasionally get to play with them but fall well short of anything I would want to see for someone carrying.

Aside from that, as frequently as I've seen CAF members saying really outlandish stuff on police use of force discussions, I have zero faith that CAF training or mindset appropriately equips people to be carrying firearms on civvy street. Honestly, soldiers and vets are some of the worst armchair quarterbacks for what should be done in use of force situations. There's quite a strong hubris from soldiers who believe that carrying a rifle in training or combat operations carries across perfectly or even adequately for being armed for daily carry for self/public defense. Many are very out to lunch. All that said- military training/experience should not be a factor that is at all in play in determining whether someone should or should not be permitted to carry a firearm in public in Canada.

There's not a chance we are going to see private open or concealed carry of firearms expanded generally in Canada, and I'm fine with that. There's no significant political appetite here, and few of us want to see us move along the trajectory to what we see south of the border. Just no thanks.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2018, 18:10:29 »
Familiarity can sometimes breed complacence. People carrying concealed in public places where 99.9999% of people there are innocent bystanders need a high degree of training to be safe for both themselves and others.

Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2018, 18:18:35 »
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566

Seen. His family is stating he has been dealing with depression and psychosis, which I find very plausible. The name alone means there's going to be a ton of racist conjecture around this one. I will need to be convinced by evidence of any ideological or religious motivate, and hope people can reserve judgment and wait for evidence to emerge. If police have executed a search warrant on his residence, next step will be extracting every bit they can from any of his digital devices. That will probably be very revealing. And of course, figuring out where he got the gun. I will not be surprised if he has criminal history.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2018, 18:24:00 »
That will probably be very revealing. And of course, figuring out where he got the gun. I will not be surprised if he has criminal history.

The problem is, I've rarely seen released where the gun was obtained. We've already started seeing the gun control folks using this tragedy to justify more restrictive regulations, but never do I see the actual statistics between crimes committed with legally obtained firearms by licensed firearms owners, and illegally obtained firearms by non-licensed criminals.

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2018, 18:51:03 »
Their 'familiarity' with weapons does not, to mind, extend to any particular degree of expertise. A small number of CAF members are pretty experienced and proficient with pistols. The rest might occasionally get to play with them but fall well short of anything I would want to see for someone carrying.

Aside from that, as frequently as I've seen CAF members saying really outlandish stuff on police use of force discussions, I have zero faith that CAF training or mindset appropriately equips people to be carrying firearms on civvy street. Honestly, soldiers and vets are some of the worst armchair quarterbacks for what should be done in use of force situations. There's quite a strong hubris from soldiers who believe that carrying a rifle in training or combat operations carries across perfectly or even adequately for being armed for daily carry for self/public defense. Many are very out to lunch. All that said- military training/experience should not be a factor that is at all in play in determining whether someone should or should not be permitted to carry a firearm in public in Canada.

There's not a chance we are going to see private open or concealed carry of firearms expanded generally in Canada, and I'm fine with that. There's no significant political appetite here, and few of us want to see us move along the trajectory to what we see south of the border. Just no thanks.

Amen. When I was overseas, a number of folks opted to carry pistols instead of rifles in the camp (whether this was for convenience, LCF, availability or what have you). Most folks outside of trades whom carried and fired the/a pistol regularly (either the Sig, or our old friend the Browning) performed abhorrently at the range in both drills and abilities. They also seemed to have little use for properly maintaining their personal weapon too.

 When you factor in stress, from a variety of sources (people screaming, limited time, no clear overview of events in question, etc) you will see more innocent people shot then saved. I also whole heartily concur with everything Brihard stated above.

While some resilience to stress and ability to make decisions in a crowded environment are to a degree burned into a soldiers training, appropriate use of force in a civilian setting with only a firearm will only bring harm - not only to the innocent people in the way - but also the soldier, sailor or air-person who was ill equipped for the task of carrying concealed in a public place. Should those who were tasked to carry concealed have the rest of the use of force suite of options available to them? (Baton, pepper spray, taser (if equipped)) Those less lethal use of force options are there as tools for a number of reasons - but primarily because your first or only option/tool shouldn't be the lethal one (in most settings or situations). Will we also train those carrying concealed on appropriate use and escalation of force (ie the national Use of Force model)? That training takes months (formal and informal), and good judgement can take years to develop (if it develops at all). If I was responding to a call for service, the last thing I want is to run into some half cocked cook, or infanteer, or mechanic, or whomever who because of their status as a CF member was magically granted a carry and conceal permit for protecting the rest of the public and the "sheepdog" mindset that I fear will come with it.

I wear civilian attire in my current unit and I carry a pistol most of the time. I'm often out in public with my weapon semi-concealed.  I've probably put somewhere between 15 and 20 thousand rounds through that pistol (lots of range days). I'm fairly comfortable handling it, shooting it and hitting the things I want to hit with it - at the range.  But you can bet I've got at least one intermediate weapon with me too. Not only because *policy* but also because I don't want my only "tool" to be the gun - however familiar I am with it. I am also familiar with the consequences of shooting when no shooting was required.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2018, 19:16:51 »
It wouldn't be the first time someone with serious mental health problems slipped through the system between a medical system that doesn't talk to police/chief firearms office and family/friends who don't want to get involved/be the "bad guy".

*If* his family knew he had a lot of mental problems and he possessed firearms I think they may share some responsibility with what happened. Conjecture and supposition at this point.


As far as ccw permits go I'd be for them and think they could prevent shootings or at least mitigate victims. At the same time I very much agree with a lot of what Brihard says why they would be bad news. Add to that increase in stolen pistols, pistols lost in bathrooms, accidental discharges, jumpy police, police who will need across the country training to deal with people carrying pistols, paranoid non-carrying citizens.

As much as I'd support it (in light of my misgivings) it'll never happen here.



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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2018, 19:21:31 »
Quote from: JesseWZ
Amen. When I was overseas, a number of folks opted to carry pistols instead of rifles in the camp (whether this was for convenience, LCF, availability or what have you). Most folks outside of trades whom carried and fired the/a pistol regularly (either the Sig, or our old friend the Browning) performed abhorrently at the range in both drills and abilities.

Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15'000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2018, 19:36:23 »
My IPSC instructor shoots about 40,000rds a year, worn out about 8 guns and figures he has shot a couple of million rds altogether. For awhile there I was going through 1,000rds a month at the range myself. I can shoot pistol despite my army training.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2018, 21:58:03 »
I don't have recent hard data, but anecdotally most of Ontario's crime guns are being smuggled in from the US. Not too hard to move stuff across the border given how perfunctory border checks are, and a clean gun from the states can get quadruple the price on the street...

perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2018, 22:05:36 »
According to this article he suffered from mental health issues.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-id-danforth-shooter-1.4757566

Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2018, 22:13:58 »
Thats what the government calls terrorism now. That way they can say 'No terrorist activity in Canada' and the PM won't have to break another promise.

So, a whole 22 hours after the incident before someone laid this at the feet of the Prime Minister.  Impressive restraint that shows enormous respect for the victims.  Well done.

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2018, 23:14:25 »
He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2018, 23:30:49 »
He could have rented a van or truck which is cheaper than buying a gun off the street.

Which some knob already did not all that long ago in Toronto...guess he didn't want to look like a copycat.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2018, 00:20:51 »
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2018, 03:00:26 »
‘Perfunctory’ was an inappropriate word to choose, you’re right. I did not intend to disparage but on reflection i did not convey what I wanted to convey, and I chose a word that can really only have that negative meaning that I didn’t intend. For that, I apologize to any CBSA members we may have here. I intended to make reference to the massive volume of traffic and the minimal time and resources available to perform checks. ‘Cursory’ would have fit better, so long as it’s understood that it’s cursory by necessity.

As for the rest of your post, the border issues are irrelevant to this and it appears your understanding of the obligations faced by police remains willfully limited, so I see no percentage in going down that rabbit hole.

Thanks Bri. Sorry I'm late here. All my portable screens are acting wonky. If I keep losing things, I might have to dust off the desktop.

Anyway, I appreciate the response. Ok, let me see if I can do this.

I saw your comment, in the light that started us, and fired a cheap shot back to you.

In light of your para 1 explanation, perhaps we're  both at fault.

Had I known your original intent, the shot would not have been taken.

If you want, I can try dig and erase all vestiges of the conversation and you can edit your original one to yourself correct word. How's that?

I retire from enforcement tomorrow and mean no disrespect to any in our professional family.

Being in spite. I'll withdraw that part of my comment as it does none of us any favours, but that's your call.

So, maybe your comment "very heavily hard right bias that we have all become accustomed to over the years here." Is not quite as accurate as you think. Either the outside, politically correct groupspeak here, or our inside "we know what you really mean one." 41+ years of serving the Crown, I can speak pretty good beurocrat.
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« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 03:11:26 by recceguy »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2018, 11:23:04 »
perfunctory definition: done quickly, without taking care or interest:

Windsor-Detroit. The busiest border in North America. The border with the biggest gun capture of any in Canada. Some of the biggest drug confiscations in North America. The border where guns are drawn more than any other.

I'll stack our CBSA Inspectors and Intellegence person against any around.

Disparaging your federal peers on the border because they lack funds and have a shortage of personnel is petty and cheap. The people in Windsor are very good. They spend time protecting us, not collecting taxes.

Much can be said for your house, like getting it to work, for Canadians, before you go knocking on doors. At least CBSA isn't carrying luggage for illegal aliens. They are trying to catch criminals and process the grits' accounting problems.

Perfunctory  :not-again:

I was underwhelmed by the CBSA types I worked with out here. One of my current co-workers worked for them as well, made for interesting stories. Also a CBSA Regional Director taught my G220 Management course and gave us a detailed lesson on how to fire employees, seems a few of his had interesting taste in porn which they used work computers to view. Like any organization there are good people struggling to make things work right, but i suspect it is the nature of the culture there that was the main issue.

As far as CCW goes, we should also be allowing off-duty cops to carry, that should be a no-brainer. For the civilian, a restricted PAL, IPSC Black Badge and have them take a course designed for the permit covering shooting techniques, holsters and legal issue. They must also qualify on the range twice a year. 

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 13:29:30 »
Honestly for self defence you can't beat a revolver.

Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2018, 16:11:05 »
Close in, a revolver is very easy to defeat.

Use an overhand grip and.force the web of your hand in between the hammer.and the frame. You also have control of the cylinder. Can't pull the trigger without turning the cylinder in double action. You now control, the gun, the muzzle but you have tremendous leverage against their grip.

Good luck sticking your hand between the hammer and the frame of a revolver in the middle of a fight. And hypothetically even if you could do it just remember that a semi-automatic pistol would easily been pushed out of battery long before this point. Also don't forget that if you did manage to get your hand in on that revolver and they got it out of your hand all they have to do is pull the trigger again. With the semi-automatic pistol they would likely have to at least rack the slide again to get it functioning again.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2018, 17:01:49 »
Close in, any firearm can be defeated. The reactionary gap is 21 feet. Unless you're pointed at the subjects head, you fire the instant they take off and score a hit, they're going to close the gap and you're in a hand to hand fight. Trying to control a gun by blocking the hammer and cylinder is kind of dumb. Could try the pushing the slide back on the HiPower trick and see if it works...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 17:57:12 »
Some common themes.

Quote


Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”



https://www.google.ca/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-was-danforth-attack-terror-or-terrorism/amp
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 18:00:41 »
To be honest, I don't know why terrorism and mentally ill have to be mutually exclusive. Being willing to take other human lives, or burn people alive in cages does not sound mentally stable to me.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2018, 18:35:12 »
Some common themes.

Considering this I would be surprised if he had a PAL

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2018, 18:44:37 »
Considering this I would be surprised if he had a PAL

I can almost guarantee he does not have a PAL. Most likely positive FIP on cpic/cni which would block him from getting through any paperwork for a PAL.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2018, 18:53:04 »
Pushing the mental health + gun problem angle. 

Quote
"The police are doing their best, but they're operating under extraordinarily difficult circumstances to deal with these guns," the mayor said. "We'll see what they conclude from this case, but it's evidence of a gun problem, clearly."




I seen some pictures on FB and Twitter of a profile with someone with the same name that look like they're from an ISIS training camp. Won't post them until it seems like there's more evidence of a connection than just a name.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2018, 18:54:12 »
Many CCW permit holders in the US manage to effectively use their pistols to dissuade criminals or engage active shooters. I'm going to guess many that do don't have 15,000 rounds under their belt but they defend themselves well enough.

Sometimes, the display of a CCW holder's firearm can deescalate an encounter better than firing a shot.

The other thing that gets overlooked in the CCW debate is judgement.  Knowing how to shoot is important.  Knowing WHEN to shoot, or, equally when NOT to shoot. is sometimes more important than marksmanship and pistol handling which is the focus of much of the CCW debate.

I had an interesting and shocking discussion with an American friend who is a CCW permit holder in a "shall issue" state.  i asked him if his state required any type of training.  The answer was "no".  I asked if he had any liability insurance (state or private) to rely on should he be sued after a shooting.  he said "I suppose my house insurance would cover me."

Another friend, an expat Canadian and former Infantry Sgt is also a CCW holder in a different state.  His state requires he demonstrate dry and live fire proficiency, participate in judgement scenarios and show proof of liability insurance.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 19:05:49 by Haggis »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2018, 18:56:14 »
What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2018, 19:18:11 »
What about striker-fire pistols? No where to stick a thumb-finger web or anything else in to block the firing pin.

Push the slide out of battery.

I was talking revolvers. The technique I described is a common one. Regardless of what others may think. Something that was  taught to me over 40 years ago that I have seen on many other occasions.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2018, 19:21:48 »
Interesting article......

Quote
The man who has presented himself as the point of contact for the family of Faisal Hussain is a professional activist who has reportedly committed himself to “framing a new narrative of Muslims in Canada” and creating a “national political movement.”

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement?video_autoplay=true


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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2018, 20:17:37 »
Quote
Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale says there is no known connection between the Toronto shooting suspect and national security concerns, and that the Trudeau government is prepared to consider a proposal to ban handguns.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-feds-prepared-to-consider-proposal-to-ban-handguns-goodale-says/

Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.
Maybe police were talking to the shooter about his grammar or posting memes.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2018, 21:28:59 »
Ralph says no known connections to national security concerns.

Joe Warmington over at the Toronto Sun seems to be saying something different, however, what he is reporting has not been confirmed.

Quote
WARMINGTON: Was Danforth attack terror, or terrorism?

Joe Warmington Updated:July 24, 2018 10:12 AM EDT

It was terror on the Danforth no question.

But was it terrorism?

In the hours following the evil carnage that took the lives of two girls, just 10 and 18 and wounded 14 others in a merciless flurry of gunfire along the restaurant-lined streets of Greektown, a complicated picture is emerging of 29-year-old Faisal Hussain, who also died after exchanging gunfire with police.

His family released a statement to CBC News expressing their “deepest condolences” to victims and their families,  saying their son struggled with “severe mental health challenges.“

Meanwhile, my law-enforcement sources confirm investigators are looking at every avenue — including a potential jihadi-inspired mission.

Files being reviewed by police include concern Hussain expressed “support” for a website that was seen as “pro-ISIL,” says a law enforcement source.

Sources say police in Toronto and CSIS officials in Ottawa, as well as the RCMP, are looking into his past, which sources say include his residence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hussain apparently had been spoken to by authorities about his online activities. Sources say Toronto Police, the OPP and the RCMP have all had an interest in the now-deceased shooter.

What law enforcement is saying is that the attack was planned, and Hussain was “well known to Toronto Police” for investigations into past crimes “involving weapons and violence.”

He was also known to hang out behind his building at 43 Thorncliffe Park Blvd. with a group of 20 friends.

“Police were called once because they thought Faisal was carrying a gun,” said someone who was there. “No gun was found.”

Meanwhile, Hussain’s family emailed a statement to CBC News outlining a life-long struggle with mental illness, depression and psychosis.

“We are utterly devastated by the incomprehensible news that our son was responsible for the senseless violence and loss of life that took place on the Danforth,” the statement read.

“While we did our best to seek help for him throughout his life of struggle and pain, we could never imagine that this would be his devastating and destructive end.

“Our hearts are in pieces for the victims and for our city as we all come to grips with this terrible tragedy. We will mourn those who were lost for the rest of our lives.”

A neighbour living near the apartment where Hussain lived with his parents said Faisal told him he previously worked in a bakery and as a grocer. While some friends said he was “not at all radical,” others said he was more interested in Islamic discussions “when there were more people around.”

At the 65 Mussallah Mosque near the building, Abubaker Patel said he knew Faisal’s father well, calling him “the nicest guy in the world.” The elder Hussain is in Sunnybrook Hospital and his other son has been in a coma for the past year, Patel said.

Faisal, he suggested, has lived alone in the apartment in the meantime.

Sources say the deceased shooter’s personal life is being explored — including searching his family’s residence in Unit 707 in the Thorncliffe apartment building.

Police executed a search warrant Monday and were set to hunt for what they were told could be a stockpile of weapons and perhaps explosives. They were also interested in computers and hard drives.

While police made clear they have not ruled out any motives, the investigation will undoubtedly uncover the broken pieces of a life that ended in senseless violence and death.

Little comfort to his victims, or to a city struggling to make sense of this tragedy.

jwarmington@postmedia.com

Article Link



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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2018, 21:46:44 »
I thought the family’s statement about this shooter and his mental illness was released quickly and IMO was well worded.......

Edit to add:

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/furey-meet-the-spin-doctor-behind-the-hussain-family-statement

I’m starting to get a tad upset on how our government and media molly coddle terrorists and criminals.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 22:13:53 by Hamish Seggie »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2018, 23:27:50 »
Joe Warmington over at the Toronto Sun seems to be saying something different, however, what he is reporting has not been confirmed.


Seen that.

Goodale is quick to say there's no links to national security, is the investigation already over? Nope. I think he's cleverly meaning there's no "100%" connection "right now", happy to mislead readers. Same way the government tried to mislead people about bill C71.

Speaking of which, the investigation isn't over but he's already talking about a proposed handgun ban. Didn't waste much time there.

What the police apparently are saying definitely isn't what Goodale seems to be pushing.


I thought the family’s statement about this shooter and his mental illness was released quickly and IMO was well worded.......



That was my first impression too.  Super scripted and lawyery.  When I see that scripted response along with this guys apparent online activity, history and criminal record I feel comfortable calling bull crap on the families "we're so surprised, we're totally shocked" attempt.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 01:14:03 by Jarnhamar »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2018, 14:56:43 »
Another perspective:

Quote
Terry Glavin: #TorontoStrong can be strong enough to support the shooter's family, too
If people cannot find it within themselves to extend the same compassion to the Hussains that is being shown victims' families, they should be ashamed

To try to look on the bright side, maybe the reason last weekend’s Danforth shooting rampage has pushed some people into an abyss of hysteria is that Toronto truly is one of the world’s great peaceable cities, and the horror of what happened has been just too much of a shock. Maybe it’s got something to do with the ubiquity of rancid disinformation and malicious pseudo-news these days that a meanness and heartlessness so quickly intruded into what was, in the early goings, a moment of shared mourning, a “Toronto Strong” moment of quiet civic decency and resilience.

Maybe the simple, ugly reason that so little sympathy has been on hand for the parents of the severely mentally ill and now-dead shooter — they have another son who has been in a coma for more than a year, and their daughter died in a car accident about five years ago — is that they are Muslim. Or maybe it’s just because it was their son who committed the unconscionable act, that their own crushing anguish and sorrow is cruelly dismissed as somehow less deserving of any public sympathy.


https://nationalpost.com/opinion/terry-glavin-torontostrong-needs-to-prove-itself-by-embracing-the-shooters-parents?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1532537691
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2018, 14:57:03 »
Cross posting with the gun control thread a little.


Quote
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/toronto-shooter-s-gun-was-illegal-originally-from-u-s-source-1.4027129#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=Facebook&_gsc=EKwgxNe
The gun used to shoot 15 people on a busy Toronto street was likely obtained from a “gang-related source,” according to a person familiar with the case.

CP24 safety specialist Cam Woolley says a police source has told him the semi-automatic handgun used in the shooting is illegal in Canada and was originally from the United States. American authorities are helping track the gun’s exact origin.


So we have an American gun that was illegally brought to Canada. What is Toronto's solution?

Quote
https://globalnews.ca/news/4351297/toronto-handgun-ammunition-ban/
Toronto city council urges upper levels of government to ban sale of guns, ammunition locally
Toronto city council is calling on the upper levels of government to ban the sale of guns and ammunition locally.

In a 41-to-four vote, city council voted to “urge” the federal government to ban handgun sales in Toronto. It also called on the provincial government to ban handgun ammunition sales in the city.


Shooter doesn't have a gun license, cannot legally buy guns or ammo in Canada, obtained a gun illegally which was apparently  brought IN from the US. So the solution is to ban legal handgun sales in Toronto to legal handgun owners.

In the classic words of Ralph Wiggum "I'm helping".

Further more from the first link.
Quote
CTV News has further learned that ammunition and large-capacity magazines were found by police officers searching the apartment Faisal Hussain shared with his parents. Police are also looking into the connection between Hussain’s brother, who is currently in a coma, and a 2017 seizure of more than 30 guns in Pickering, Ont.

More ammunition, illegal magazines (not that there's a huge difference between 10 and 15 round mags), those "clueless parents" and a brother who had 30 guns that were seized. Guessing they weren't legally owned.

Yet who does the Toronto council and Liberal want to want to target? Low hanging fruit because it's easy and makes it look like the city is doing something.

And that's not just woe as me poor hard done by gun owner talking, the logic of this is just retarded.

More and more that family looks shady as crap.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2018, 15:05:54 »
Cross posting with the gun control thread a little
...

Which brings up a point; the gun control debate belongs in the Great Gun Control Debate 2.0 thread.

While it is natural there is a bit of overlap in this instance, please try to maintain a separation so that we don’t end up having to go through cleaning up this thread by moving purely gun control debate into that one.

Thanks!

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2018, 15:27:26 »
Which brings up a point; the gun control debate belongs in the Great Gun Control Debate 2.0 thread.

While it is natural there is a bit of overlap in this instance, please try to maintain a separation so that we don’t end up having to go through cleaning up this thread by moving purely gun control debate into that one.

Thanks!

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Good points. My bad.


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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2018, 19:53:00 »
Borrowing my own reply on this from elsehwere:

Part of Daesh's MO is to claim anything they can. Notably in this case there seems to have been no manifesto, no claim fro the shooter himself, and no claim from Daesh or their ilk concurrent with the event itself. It only came after unidentified police sources quoted in some questionable media alleged that he had some 'interesting' internet activity... Which in and of itself means little.

So at this point we have Daesh saying 'it was us'. We on the contrary have Toronto police saying they have nothing indicating that to be true, and we have the federal minister of public safety's office saying that at this point there is no evident national security nexus.

While I will not speculate about this investigation, I can say with confidence that with this amount of time elapsed it would be reasonable to expect that police have been able to execute search warrants on his residence and have done at least a preliminary extraction and examination of such things as the contents of his computer and potentially other digital devices they have likely had time to examine such things as internet search and browsing history, social media presence, etc. At this point in time if there was a reasonably evident extremist link, it would be reasonable to surmise that police have had ample opportunity to at least preliminarily identify it- enough so, at least, that any wise spokesperson would shy away from denying that one exists.

So I guess it comes down to who you trust more- Daesh; or Toronto Police as well as the department of public safety (encompassing CSIS, RCMP, etc).

There seems to be mounting evidence that he lived at least on the fringes of typical street gang BS, likely had easy enough access to guns through same, and that his brother may have been involved with such matters more deeply and that said brother illegally possessed firearms.

I do not consider the fact that he hit people at close range with a pistol to be evidence of more in terms of training, certainly not any training provided for the intent of terrorism. It isn't hard to teach someone how to feed a handgun, and if you fire enough shots into crowded environments, you will get hits, some of which may be fatal.

It is certainly not impossible nor even implausible that ideological radicalization was a contributing or causal factor. Nor is it implausible tat it wasn't. I personally wait to see evidence of such things, and thus far little if any has been presented, and agencies who know the facts will come out close to fully in time have said that they believe it is not. I consider that more credible than an unsubstantiated Daesh 'we did it'.
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2018, 20:02:22 »
Turns out he had a .40 caliber handgun and seven magazines of rounds. 3 full mags remaining when he died.....

https://torontosun.com/news/crime/warmington-danforth-shooter-was-armed-for-war-cops-say?video_autoplay=true

To my inexperienced eye he sure moved and handled himself proficiently . And 20 rounds fired with 14 hits on the move.........amateur hour...I think not....


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« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 20:54:47 by garb811 »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2018, 20:08:24 »
Turns out he had a .40 caliber handgun and seven magazines of rounds. 3 full mags remaining when he died.....

https://torontosun.com/news/crime/warmington-danforth-shooter-was-armed-for-war-cops-say?video_autoplay=true

To my inexperienced eye he sure moved and handled himself proficiently . And 20 rounds fired with 14 hits on the move.........amateur hour...I think not....


Cheers
Larry

I assume you're basing that on the small snippet of video- which yes, did show him taking a pretty decent stance for a couple shots. Where are you getting that he was firing on the move vice doing what we saw him do?

Not to say that him having some shooting proficiency is incompatible with any of the other stuff. Gang members and other criminals go to the range too, and it's not difficult or particularly expensive to get taught to shoot at least with a modest amount of proficiency. The very article you quote states police believed him to have fired 40-60 rounds. 2 dead and 12 more wounded isn't at all an outlandish number for that number of rounds fired into evening crowds at restaurants.

All that to say- nothing I've yet seen suggests to me from my experience that he was the recipient of some sort of special training. I would also caution you not to assume that mentally ill means someone is not capable of physical proficiency in mechanical tasks. A person can be in the grips of psychosis, depression, or whatever and still extremely capable of doing things they have previously learned to do.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 21:01:54 by garb811 »
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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2018, 09:13:04 »
All that to say- nothing I've yet seen suggests to me from my experience that he was the recipient of some sort of special training. I would also caution you not to assume that mentally ill means someone is not capable of physical proficiency in mechanical tasks. A person can be in the grips of psychosis, depression, or whatever and still extremely capable of doing things they have previously learned to do.

There's many other ways one can acquire "firearms" proficiency.  AirSoft, for example.  And not knowing how long he had this gun (or any others) we can assume by his observed (by police) skills that he developed proficiency before hand, likely through dry pistol handling prior to going live.  This clearly shows a high degree of premeditation.

Marksmanship skills can be developed in the virtual worlds as well.  Some studies out of the US show that gamers involved in gunfights are more likely to take head shots due to the higher point value of a head shot in some video games. Also, many game platforms illustrate a perfect sight picture every time you "aim" your virtual weapon.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2018, 09:41:31 »
Quote from: Haggis


Marksmanship skills can be developed in the virtual worlds as well.  Some studies out of the US show that gamers involved in gunfights are more likely to take head shots due to the higher point value of a head shot in some video games. Also, many game platforms illustrate a perfect sight picture every time you "aim" your virtual weapon.

I was actually going to post about the same exact studies. They found some gamers-turn-shooters, despite no firearms training, had better accuracy than some responding police I believe?

I think this is a wake up call that our border agents need way more resources, money and manpower.

I'm not sure what the police might be able to do to help, maybe more resources to monitor high risk people?



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Online Haggis

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Re: 8 Shot in Toronto
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2018, 09:49:39 »
I think this is a wake up call that our border agents need way more resources, money and manpower.

CBSA is hiring and training new officers as fast as they can. But there are staff and infrastructure limitations to their schoolhouse capacity.  CBSA and every other LEA in Canada (and the CAF) are all competing for the same recruit demographic. At least now, with the signing of a new collective agreement, front-line Border Services Officers (not "agents") are being paid competitively to other LEA which may aid in retention.
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