Author Topic: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols  (Read 13356 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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Australia's Chief of Army, Lieutenant General Angus Campbell, has issued a directive that prohibits the wearing of 'death' symbols.

Lieutenant General Campbell said the practice was arrogant, ill-considered and that it eroded the ethos of the Army.

The directive was circulated as an internal minute on April 17, and later posted to unofficial social media pages for commentary.

Several symbols were specifically prohibited because of their violent, murderous and vigilante symbolism including the Grim Reaper, the Skull and Crossbones, Spartans, and the Phantom or Punisher.

(More at link)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-19/army-bans-troops-from-wearing-skulls-death-symbols/9673242?pfmredir=sm
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

jollyjacktar

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 12:33:28 »
Go with Care Bears or Pokémon, that will send a kinder, gentler message.

Offline meni0n

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 12:38:49 »
Guess the Queen's Royal Lancers can't come for a visit

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Offline CountDC

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 12:39:41 »
some of those pokemon can be a bit vicious.
“non-commissioned officer (NCO)” means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal.

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2018, 12:48:23 »
No more Skulls and Crossbones?  How is an Australian submarine supposed to signal a successful patrol now ???

jollyjacktar

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2018, 13:06:53 »
I think their out will be that this is the Chief of the Army setting rules for his troops and the RAN should be outside of that umbrella.  If not, perhaps they could have a pennant complete with (a sorrowful looking Trudeau equivalent for down under) a "Sorry" incorporated in the design.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2018, 18:25:16 »
Guess the Queen's Royal Lancers can't come for a visit

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Lancers

Ok, that capbadge is pretty badass, as far as capbadges go.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2018, 18:47:44 »
Did anyone read the rationale?

Quote
Several symbols were specifically prohibited because of their violent, murderous and vigilante symbolism including the Grim Reaper, the Skull and Crossbones, Spartans, and the Phantom or Punisher.

Symbols matter.  Indisciplined, murderous, and vigilante are words that one should not associate with a military.  A military is about the controlled use of force, under the auspices of the state.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2018, 18:49:26 »
Then I’d be banned
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

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Offline Loachman

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2018, 19:08:35 »
"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "frig" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"
- Colonel Kurz, Apocalypse Now

We had the Punisher painted on one of our Sperwers.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2018, 19:21:43 »
Did anyone read the rationale?

Symbols matter.  Indisciplined, murderous, and vigilante are words that one should not associate with a military.  A military is about the controlled use of force, under the auspices of the state.

Sorry.  The reason for being as a soldier, sailor, airman isn't to hand out Teddy Bears.  The ultimate end game as Geroge Patton said is to make the other poor SOB die for his counrty.  I'm afraid I never observed the Australians running amok in the sandbox.  Don't like the symbols?  Join the Peace Corps or Katimavick.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2018, 19:25:47 »
I wonder what the RAAF policy would be for writing messages on bombs?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,125837.msg1490057.html#msg1490057


Offline Loachman

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2018, 21:18:47 »
We could write "Sorry, eh?"

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2018, 21:58:11 »
I wonder what the RAAF policy would be for writing messages on bombs?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,125837.msg1490057.html#msg1490057

Well, RAAF 82 Wing's motto is "Find and Destroy", and 11 Sqn's motto is "Shepherd or Destroy", so I think that sums up their views on the topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._82_Wing_RAAF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._11_Squadron_RAAF
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline mariomike

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2018, 22:24:45 »
Well, RAAF 82 Wing's motto is "Find and Destroy", and 11 Sqn's motto is "Shepherd or Destroy", so I think that sums up their views on the topic.

They did a lot of bombing, and paid a high price. Of the 10,000 Australians who served with Bomber Command, 3486 were killed.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 09:09:11 »
Meh....

What's 'Under the sleeve' is up to the soldier IMHO.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Altair

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2018, 09:17:57 »
Spartans continue to get a bad rap
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2018, 09:27:41 »
What's 'Under the sleeve' is up to the soldier IMHO.

Regarding tattoos, "tattoos and/or brands are permitted on other parts of the body, unless the tattoo or brand is considered offensive and undermines the dignity and authority of the Australian Defence Force."
https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/help-centre/faqs?faqCategory=99e0bf0d-2129-44c1-b3e5-715941b3c216&faqTag=appearance&faqQuestion=8ebc9b5f-b3fb-441b-bf95-693272ef65f8

Offline Mike5

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2018, 09:32:26 »
 “After all, when you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.”

Sir Winston Churchill
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Online Remius

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 10:03:42 »
Spartans continue to get a bad rap

There is a whole other thread about that. 
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2018, 11:22:20 »
Maybe they're just taking a more feminist approach to the military and doing away with toxic masculine symbols.


 

Quote
The Australian Army is turning away male recruits in a 'politically correct' push to increase the number of female cadets.

Recruiters at the Australian Defence Force have been told they will be re-located if they ignore orders to target women for new jobs, The Daily Telegraph reported.

Of the 50 listed recruiting vacancies, 35 of those positions are only available to women.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4779178/Australian-Army-turning-away-male-recruits-female.html#ixzz5DE638U6N

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4779178/Australian-Army-turning-away-male-recruits-female.html
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2018, 11:44:40 »
Maybe they're just taking a more feminist approach to the military and doing away with toxic masculine symbols.


 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4779178/Australian-Army-turning-away-male-recruits-female.html

And I'm sure that will help fill the Infantry battalions with females.  :sarcasm:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2018, 20:17:47 »
Indisciplined, murderous, and vigilante are words that one should not associate with a military. 

Three different views on killing,

Oscar Levant said, "When I appeared before the draft board examiner during World War II, he asked me if I thought I could kill. "I don't know about strangers," I replied, "but friends, certainly." "  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._82_Wing_RAAF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._11_Squadron_RAAF

I read of one airman who was invited to choose his own target from the four the squadron were detailed to attack that night. ( Because his hometown had been bombed by the Luftwaffe, he was given the opportunity to get some revenge. )
Instead of the heavily populated ( and defended ) cities of Hamburg or Cologne, he chose an airfield in Holland. Simply because it offered him the best chance of surviving the night.

On the other hand, "The Norwegians never cared about the economic importance of a target. They simply wanted to know how many Germans per acre."

From what I have read, much of the stuff written on bombs was done by ground staff for the photographers, rather than the men who would drop them.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 20:36:55 by mariomike »

jollyjacktar

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2018, 20:40:33 »
My dad respected the opposition as professionals as well as fellow sufferers from the misery of it all.  A better man than l. 

I can't honestly think of any fate I wouldn't wish upon the Taliban and their ilk.  The more horrible, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Chief of Army bans soldiers from wearing 'arrogant' death symbols
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2018, 22:51:37 »
And I'm sure that will help fill the Infantry battalions with females.  :sarcasm:

Most of whom will have better skin art than the men......
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Offline Shrek1985

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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-19/army-bans-troops-from-wearing-skulls-death-symbols/9673242?pfmredir=sm

Good of the Aussies to self-ID as not serious about this whole "War"-thing, I'm sure the Russians, Chinese, et al will be grateful.

Oh! Did they ban the Haka, as well? Thought not.

Offline Loachman

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You're only off by about 2100 km.

The Haka is a Maori custom.

Maoris are indigenous to New Zealand.

So, no, Australia will likely not bother to ban Hakas.

Online Remius

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Good of the Aussies to self-ID as not serious about this whole "War"-thing, I'm sure the Russians, Chinese, et al will be grateful.

Oh! Did they ban the Haka, as well? Thought not.

Scenario question.  I have a Reserve Cpl who likes to Velcro things to his tac vest and his body armour and the arms of his combats. One is in fact a punisher symbol.  Another is the Cpl 4 life badge.  Should he be allowed to put anything he wants on his kit?  Or wear his skull bandana on ex because "call of Duty".  Honest question.

Second.  I think the Russians and Chinese could care less about badges one way or another and care more about capability.

 
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Online dangerboy

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Scenario question.  I have a Reserve Cpl who likes to Velcro things to his tac vest and his body armour and the arms of his combats. One is in fact a punisher symbol.  Another is the Cpl 4 life badge.  Should he be allowed to put anything he wants on his kit?  Or wear his skull bandana on ex because "call of Duty".  Honest question.


The only badges he should be wearing are the standard issued ones (rank, nametag, Canadian Flag), and mission specific patches or IFF badges.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Scenario question.  I have a Reserve Cpl who likes to Velcro things to his tac vest and his body armour and the arms of his combats. One is in fact a punisher symbol.  Another is the Cpl 4 life badge.  Should he be allowed to put anything he wants on his kit?  Or wear his skull bandana on ex because "call of Duty".  Honest question.

Your profile says MWO Infantry. Your last sentence is "Honest question".

Which is it?

Sorry, but you're confusing me.
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Online Remius

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Your profile says MWO Infantry. Your last sentence is "Honest question".

Which is it?

Sorry, but you're confusing me.

Which is what?

Sorry about the confusion.  I was positing a scenario question and was soliciting honest answers to the question.  Sometimes asking a question in a certain way gives away the answer or generates discussion that leads to an answer.
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Offline Infanteer

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Patches are like helmet graffiti.  Disciplined units get rid of that crap.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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My suggestion is that, as a CSM or such (MWO Infantry), you have his section commander sort his *** and failing that, have him report to your office for instruction on how to wear his uniform. If he's qualified, have him reiterate the rules to the whole company. Catch him again, start him up the ladder.

Bandanas? That one is obvious.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

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Bandanas?  We don't need no stinking Bandanas!!

Offline reverse_engineer

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I've never been a fan of wasting time enforcing petty stuff like footwear or beards, but I'm not a fan of the morale patches generally.

I've seen kids who looked like they were just entering puberty with "major league infidel" patches on their crappy issued small packs...walking around the mall, or a university campus etc. If I was a bad guy, these wieners would be the first ones I'd be trying to whack or take hostage.


Offline Dimsum

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I've seen kids who looked like they were just entering puberty with "major league infidel" patches on their crappy issued small packs...walking around the mall, or a university campus etc. If I was a bad guy, these wieners would be the first ones I'd be trying to whack or take hostage.

Where does one even put patches on the issued small pack? 

Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline reverse_engineer

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Where does one even put patches on the issued small pack?

The one that really sticks out in my mind was in Ottawa. I couldn't tell if they had somehow sewn the patch on directly, or if they had added extra velcro but it was either the crappy small pack, or a very close copy, and it had been modified...

Offline Dimsum

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The one that really sticks out in my mind was in Ottawa. I couldn't tell if they had somehow sewn the patch on directly, or if they had added extra velcro but it was either the crappy small pack, or a very close copy, and it had been modified...

Wait...someone *copied* the crappy small pack   ???
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

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I do wish l had bought as a souvenir the morale patch l saw for $5 at the Dutch PX in KAF.  It showed Achmed the dead terrorist and had the phrase "Silence! We killed him and we'll kill you".  Of course l hesitated and it sold out, never to return in my time there.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Morale patches are fun but should never be displayed on a uniform or kit. I always liked the suckmeter though
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Morale patches are fun but should never be displayed on a uniform or kit. I always liked the suckmeter though

Keep them for Friday PM at the mess.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Black toques are still OK? No patches on them. 
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Black toques are still OK? No patches on them.

I’m good with the black toque. Not that I can do anything about them....
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Strike

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I loved the morale patches during TGIFs on air bases. I had a "JOPA" patch that I wore proudly during Maple Flags and at air shows.  Another one that comes in mind was the Sea King patch with check marks in boxes denoting decades of service and the phrase "Flying yesterday's aircraft tomorrow" on it.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Morale patches? Pshaw.....

How about interactive RFID tags? :)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Infanteer

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That's a bit different then troops festooning their gear with "Haji don't Surf" or "Crusader" patches when out on patrol in Islamic countries....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Eye In The Sky

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I loved the morale patches during TGIFs on air bases. I had a "JOPA" patch that I wore proudly during Maple Flags and at air shows.  Another one that comes in mind was the Sea King patch with check marks in boxes denoting decades of service and the phrase "Flying yesterday's aircraft tomorrow" on it.

JOPA?
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Offline mariomike

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For more on morale patches,

Morale Patches 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=105002.0
OP: "Let's discuss, in a jovial manner, morale patches."

Wearing of "team/roto" patches overseas.
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=67599.0
"I think the wearing of appropriate 'team', 'roto' or 'morale' patches is a good thing for the soldiers overseas."

Patching Afghanistan 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=82817.0
"Non-Official being Morale patches and unofficial unit patches"

"I was thinking more morale patch type things..."
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,101505.msg1162634.html#msg1162634

etc...

Offline reverse_engineer

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JOPA?

That patch is pretty fitting for you guys these last few years...

 ;D

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Despite not being 'allowed' to wear our Sqn Heraldic crests and crew patches, morale patches for ROTO crews ended up happening.   :tsktsk: by the ATF...meh.  If you're worried about patches as the ATF Comd level, you don't have much to actually worry about OR  you're worrying about the wrong things IMO.  Personally, I'd go with the latter choice in the case of that OP.
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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I’m a fan of different patches, for years we (LRP Acoustians) wore the “Ping Monkey” patch, no issues. Something that we sarcastically designed for ourselves.

However some *** jockey felt it demeaning (so don’t wear the ******* thing) and eventually we (at least in 14 Wing) were told to take it off.  Good thing too, because morale is high among the 6 Acoustians here on the wing.  Death by a 1000 paper cuts.

 


Offline Strike

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Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Good thing too, because morale is high among the 6 Acoustians here on the wing.  Death by a 1000 paper cuts.

Wait...didn't you hear?  You just need to 'manage your time more effectively'.  6 is plenty!  PLENTY!!
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Junior
Officer
Protection
Agency

Ha!  That's a good one!
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline daftandbarmy

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On various exercises it was always fun to 'capture' Enfor and take them direct to tactical questioning where any badges or tattoos they were wearing were immediately put to use in extracting information from them.

Subsequently, when I was conducting TQ on the right side of the table, it was always easier to get information from those we were questioning if they were sporting various badges and tattoos.

And then they went on the real Interrogators (shudder). 

POWs Never Have a Nice Day ;)
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Jarnhamar

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I've never been a real fan of morale patches.  Overseas I found platoon patches (skull, rams head etc..) good for morale and commeradry. Especially when you were legitimately facing loosing a family member every day. Outside of that meh. I'm proud enough wearing the huge Velcro flag on my arm (and dealing with the drama of getting caught wearing an IR flag on my rain jacket outside of the field)

I can't speak for everyone but what bothered us in the past when we were told morale patches were banned (and hilariously faced being RTUd from a war zone for being caught wearing a patch) was that higher up's and people who didn't routinely leave the wire seemed to be festooned with all types of flashy morale and adhoc unit patches.  There was definitely a double standard.

"Well they were authorized". Yea they authorized themselves I think. 

Morales patches are elitist in the CAF.

I sorta get why theyre targeted by the chain of command, say as in the Australian military. Government wants the military to be PC and public friendly as possible. It makes people happy to see flashy parades and obedient soldiers on display.  On the other hand we're taking young adults and teaching them to violently kill (I'd go so far as to suggest massacre) human beings they've never met. Who surely have families or even play the same Xbox games as these guys and girls.  I'm not educated in this stuff but I would guess there's some kind of psychological relationship (defense?) associated with skull and death iconography and the job we ultimately do or support doing.

When you read the OP they're talking about specifically banning Spartan helmets among other stuff. I think THAT highlights that this move is less about skull/death=bad and more about being politically correct and less visually "warrior" minded.  If you're going to ban a helmet icon you may as well ban swords daggers spears and shields.

*editing some grammar
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 19:47:49 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Loachman

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On the other hand we're talking young adults and teaching them to violently kill (I'd go so far as to suggest massacre) human beings they've never met.

"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "frig" on their airplanes because it's obscene!"
- Col Kurtz, Apocalypse Now

Offline SupersonicMax

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I believe you need to show some humility in taking life in the conduct of your duty.  It may bring professional satisfaction but it shouldn't be something you yell for everyone to hear (and those kind of patches scream that). Wear them in the unit lines on a Friday and at the Mess that night.  Take them off when you go in public.  Rare are the non-military people that actually think it is "cool".

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In today's PC, Kumbaya, SJW, Snowflake, Sunny Ways world, sure.  Until, the day there's a real threat to their rose coloured glasses world.

Go back 70 years and John Q Public thought it was very cool indeed. 

I don't recall seeing a load of tears when Bin Laden painted his bedroon in a new colour called "a hint of brains".

https://youtu.be/yP1vSIOmCc4
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 22:02:20 by jollyjacktar »

Offline SupersonicMax

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If you think the general public thinks killing is cool, think again.  I don't know too many people that take personnal satisfaction into killing.

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That is not exactly what l meant to say, my apologies. 

I have re-organized my previous post to make it clearer.

Also, most people will thankfully never experience killing an enemy, so why would they take personal satisfaction?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 22:05:52 by jollyjacktar »

Offline mariomike

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Go back 70 years and John Q Public thought it was very cool indeed. 

Some apparently did. I won't post the picture as it may be offensive to some. But, it was Life Magazine's Picture of the Week in 1944.

QUOTE

"May 22, 1944 Life Magazine Picture of the Week, "Arizona war worker writes her Navy boyfriend a thank-you-note for the Jap skull he sent her. The image depicts a young blond at a desk gazing at a skull. The caption says: "When he said goodbye two years ago to Natalie Nickerson, 20, a war worker of Phoenix, Ariz., a big, handsome Navy lieutenant promised her a Jap. Last week Natalie received a human skull, autographed by her lieutenant and 13 friends, and inscribed: "This is a good Jap – a dead one picked up on the New Guinea beach." Natalie, surprised at the gift, named it Tojo."

END QUOTE
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 23:57:17 by mariomike »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Some apparently did. I won't post the picture as it may be offensive to some. But, it was Life Magazine's Picture of the Week in 1944.

QUOTE

"May 22, 1944 Life Magazine Picture of the Week, "Arizona war worker writes her Navy boyfriend a thank-you-note for the Jap skull he sent her. The image depicts a young blond at a desk gazing at a skull. The caption says: "When he said goodbye two years ago to Natalie Nickerson, 20, a war worker of Phoenix, Ariz., a big, handsome Navy lieutenant promised her a Jap. Last week Natalie received a human skull, autographed by her lieutenant and 13 friends, and inscribed: "This is a good Jap – a dead one picked up on the New Guinea beach." Natalie, surprised at the gift, named it Tojo."

END QUOTE

Of course, Wikipedia has an article on this subject, complete with body part photos:

In 1984, Japanese soldiers' remains were repatriated from the Mariana Islands. Roughly 60 percent were missing their skulls.[24] Likewise it has been reported that many of the Japanese remains on Iwo Jima are missing their skulls.[24] It is possible that the souvenir collection of remains continued also in the immediate post-war period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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I've never been a real fan of morale patches.  Overseas I found platoon patches (skull, rams head etc..) good for morale and commeradry. Especially when you were legitimately facing loosing a family member every day. Outside of that meh. I'm proud enough wearing the huge Velcro flag on my arm (and dealing with the drama of getting caught wearing an IR flag on my rain jacket outside of the field)

I can't speak for everyone but what bothered us in the past when we were told morale patches were banned (and hilariously faced being RTUd from a war zone for being caught wearing a patch) was that higher up's and people who didn't routinely leave the wire seemed to be festooned with all types of flashy morale and adhoc unit patches.  There was definitely a double standard.

"Well they were authorized". Yea they authorized themselves I think. 

Morales patches are elitist in the CAF.

I sorta get why theyre targeted by the chain of command, say as in the Australian military. Government wants the military to be PC and public friendly as possible. It makes people happy to see flashy parades and obedient soldiers on display.  On the other hand we're taking young adults and teaching them to violently kill (I'd go so far as to suggest massacre) human beings they've never met. Who surely have families or even play the same Xbox games as these guys and girls.  I'm not educated in this stuff but I would guess there's some kind of psychological relationship (defense?) associated with skull and death iconography and the job we ultimately do or support doing.

When you read the OP they're talking about specifically banning Spartan helmets among other stuff. I think THAT highlights that this move is less about skull/death=bad and more about being politically correct and less visually "warrior" minded.  If you're going to ban a helmet icon you may as well ban swords daggers spears and shields.

*editing some grammar

I knew of a couple of fellas who you probably know who had K.A.T. Tattooed in big black letters on their arms. 

I remember asking: what does KAT stand for?

"It stands for 'Kill All Taliban' Sir"

The Army is filled with all types.  I wouldn't go so far as to ban all patches, rather I would use discretion which I think is something we tend to not do very well.

Offline mariomike

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It is possible that the souvenir collection of remains continued also in the immediate post-war period.

I also read that during that period some wives insisted they get rid of their "souvenirs".

Some got thrown out of car windows along the side of the road. The finders would notify police, police would have to start a homicide investigation which would remain an unsolved mystery.

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If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you....

Sorry, l couldn't resist.    :D

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Humphrey said it very well. The CAF does not do “discretion “ very well at all.  Decisions are made by committees and COs have little leeway in anything.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

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Getting back to tattoos, it's difficult to legislate 'stupid.'  Some ink seems pretty awesome.....when you're a teenager, think you're the hardest soldier alive, and testosterone passes for thought.

I later went through a phase where I was going to give being a grown-up a try, and wanted to get rid of one tattoo.  The laser removal was pricy and didn't take out the green ink, leaving a couple of small, unusual 'spots.' 

I've gotten past that phase too (being a grown-up was apparently not my strong suit), and I still have three tattoos that I can't imagine would cause offence.

The advice I gave my boys when they were young and wanted tattoos (being underage, I had to sign for them):
1.  Nowhere where it shows unless you want to show it;
2.  Avoid words and names (at their age, it would likely be transient);
3.  (Out of fear/common sense), they  had to tell their mother.



Now, people who take normal-sized piercings and turn them into gaping 1" holes you want to put a padlock through......   ::)


Offline Dimsum

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Now, people who take normal-sized piercings and turn them into gaping 1" holes you want to put a padlock through......   ::)

Well, you can't lose your keys...
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

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Ref the MilPoints:  but you weren't a 16-year old when you got that tattoo done;  ignoring advice #2 was self-inflicted. 


ps - don't become an out of shape old man, otherwise the text will be in Comic Sans font.  Then  it would be a bad tatt.   ;D 

Offline Good2Golf

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...Now, people who take normal-sized piercings and turn them into gaping 1" holes you want to put a padlock through......   ::)

...or 6"?


Offline Humphrey Bogart

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...or 6"?



This person is merely a professional taste tester.  That plate is the perfect size to hold a variety of Tapas.

Offline Jarnhamar

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That should have been insightful and not neutral, but sage advice never the less!

Thought might I recommend avoiding francophone tattoo artists when writing english words as well  ;D

When I see weirdo tattoos I try not to be too critical and think maybe that's something they needed at some point in their life but that KAT tattoo is just retarded. Buddy definitely needs to think of a better cover story for that one.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 10:57:34 by Jarnhamar »
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