Author Topic: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]  (Read 11131 times)

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Online PPCLI Guy

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No lots of currently serving members on those pages don't like it either.

The same people (or their ilk) who thought that the world would end as a result of a host of things, including: unification, women serving on ships and in the combat arms, homosexuals serving in the military at all etc, and also thought that drinking during the day, strippers in the mess at lunch, driving home drunk, hazing, and abusive leadership were all good things.

Just saying.
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2018, 22:03:46 »
 :tsktsk:  only if it involves paint.... there shall be no fun!

Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2018, 23:48:23 »
I never expected that once the new/old rank structure with pips, crowns, executive curls and whatever it is the RCAF have, finally entrenched itself that the other standards like haircuts, facial hair, and jewelry would follow.  I served 29+ years in the military, retired 5 years ago and I have worked in a military clinic a few days per week for the last 2 years.  When I walk through the reception area, I see Aviators wearing rotor blades as slip-ons, officers with pips and small crowns, pictures of officers with red patches on their collars and various Division patches on their arms.  CSOR and SOF guys wearing some made up uniform.  I sometimes wonder how anyone delivers and receives salutes...oh wait maybe changes to the saluting rules will be next; maybe it will be replaced by fit bumps and low-fives.  Next forage caps and berets will be replaced by sweatbands and bandanas.  Recruitment and fitness standards added to the above make the CAF look less like a unified force and more like a third-world or southern US militia force.  Uniformity and standards be damned, pride in dress and deportment are over-rated, let's let anyone join, wear what they want, be what they want and stay as long (or short) as they want.  Strong, Secure, Engaged are the last Defence Policies catch words not diverse, insecure and disengaged.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 23:57:31 by Simian Turner »
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2018, 08:56:56 »
All these upcoming changes to the way the CAF appears, doesn't mean not too much if the applicant can't get through the "recruiting" system in a timely manner. Additionally, if the candidate cannot be trained fairly quickly, and has modern eqpt to use, the attracted will fade away and what is the CAF left with? Answer: See above.

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The Ultimate List of Millennial Characteristics - 11 Feb 18
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:07:39 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2018, 09:10:02 »
Note General Otter, a former CO 2RCR and CGS.

December 3, 1843 – May 6, 1929 ( pic attached )

The book "One Thousand Beards: A Cultural History of Facial Hair" by Allan Peterkin, attributes the decline in popularity of beards and sideburns at the end of the 19th century to "the advent of the safety razor" which enabled men to shave more frequently, without the higher level of skill generally needed for traditional razors.


Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2018, 09:40:17 »
I understand operational efficiencies are important. Opinions on personal appearance may vary among current and former members.

But, what importance - if any - is the personal appearance of CAF members to the public?

Reason I ask is, it is the public who encourage their political representatives to vote on strong pay and benefit packages. 

Studies I have read indicate that personal appearance of uniformed services - not just operational efficiency - is important to  taxpayers.

Just to backup MMs post a few days ago...

CBC Article Link

Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2018, 10:36:10 »
OK, so I may be an old dinosaur well on my way to fossilization, but has anyone actually considered the effects of all this in wearing IPE? I know several people who had to shave off beards simply to do their IBTS gas hut training, and I have also heard multiple stories of paramedics dealing with difficult issues with people with piercings.

Being done up on MOPP 4 is pretty much going to be a thing into the future (Syria is a foretaste of operating in a chemical and chemically contaminated environment) and the proliferation of nuclear and hypersonic weapons is likely to have similar effects for everyone in or near an operational environment. And of course once things go "hot", even being at home in Petawawa or Esquimault is not likely to keep you out of the conflict zone, everyone from enemy SoF to radicalized "Lone Wolves" will be coming for you....

So change dress regulations or whatever else, but be very aware of how it affects the truly operational requirements.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 11:00:29 »
There's always the caveat for 'safety/operational reasons, though, isn't there?

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-265/index-eng.asp

Example:

CHAPTER 2 -  POLICY AND APPEARANCE, SECTION 2 - APPEARANCE

HAIR
4.Hair on the head shall be neatly groomed and conservatively styled. The length, bulk or style of hair shallnot detract from a positive military appearance or preclude the proper wear of military headdress. (Bulk is the distance that the mass of hair extends from the skin, when groomed, as opposed to the length of hair.) In particular, style and colour shall not present a bizarre, exaggerated, or unusual appearance. Unusual colours, such as green, bright red, orange, purple, etc., are not permitted. Hair must be secured or styled back to reveal the face, and any accessories used to secure or control hair styles shall be as unobtrusive as possible. Hair ornaments shall not be worn, except women’s conservative barrettes which blend with the hair colour. Shaving of all of the hair on the head is permitted. The personal manner of wearing hair within these general style limits, including moustaches, beards and braids, shall be modified to the degree necessary to accommodate operational or occupational equipment, such as gas, oxygen and scuba masks, hard, combat and flying helmets, etc., where a member’s safety or mission is put in jeopardy.

And, stepping back - there is this para as well.

CHAPTER 1 -COMMAND, CONTROL AND STAFF DUTIES

8.Control is exercised by local commanders who may standardize the dress of subordinates on any occasion, including the wear of accoutrements and alternative or optional items, subject to overall command direction.

Earrings are permitted now for females, but let's say a JTF commander thought there was a reason people should not be permitted to wear earrings ever while on that deployment.  Well, that gets approved and put into the theatre dress instructions.  Or, how on my Wing, regardless of if you're on the flight line or not, your reflective strips on the rain jacket shall be visible.  I bet that wouldn't go over in Pet.

My line of work, women can wear earrings flying, and have long hair - they also have to be able, for safety and mission reasons, be able to wear a few different masks and a flying helmet.  If they can do that with long hair and earrings...I can't see an valid argument for safety/mission reasons against males being able to wear long hair or earrings during flying ops.

* that's not to say whether I agree, or disagree with the possible changes.  My job is to support and enforce, not determine policy.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 11:15:04 by Eye In The Sky »
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

Offline Ditch

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 12:02:03 »
Limiting factor will be the operational one - as mentioned a few times already. 

Can you wear a man bun and a flying helmet?  If the answer is no, you don’t get to have a man bun.  Can you seal your C4 mask against CBRNE?  Pretty much no chance of passing a QFIt test with a beard, which means you don’t deploy, therefore not operational. Same goes with a O2 mask on your flying helmet or quick don mask on an aircraft.   

As a staff weenie (which I currently am), I’ll be able to finally look like all “operator” like the pajama boys - but once I strap an airplane back on, back to being serious about my job.

Didn’t  the RCN recently prohibited going to sea with a beard - only leaving those on shore with the ability to grow facial hair? 
Per Ardua Ad Astra

jollyjacktar

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 12:09:37 »
Didn’t  the RCN recently prohibited going to sea with a beard - only leaving those on shore with the ability to grow facial hair?

That is correct.  When you're posted to a ship or attending the DC School as a student (staff too), no beards allowed.

We had students come in from a shore billet who had to shave for the one or two days they were there.  Once finished at the school, they could grow it back.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 12:12:15 by jollyjacktar »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2018, 12:21:04 »
A big question for me is the why.

Are we changing dress regs to a gender neutral thingie to accommodate the 100 (more?) trans members of the CAF, or attract more trans members?

Or is it because our recruit pool is so shallow that we think by loosening dress regs we'll attract more people?

In the case of the latter I wonder if people who's deciding factor on serving in uniform is wearing beards 'n' long hair really a great crowd to target.  I know certain cultures have cultural attachments with hair and beards and that's fine but what about just some dude who's big decision hinges on how long we'll let him have his hair for the sake of vanity?

Anyone who instructs will likely tell you there's big (ha) physical fitness issues with recruits/students and people are absolutely addicted to social media and electronics. Will relaxed dress and deportment or grooming or whatever actually be beneficial or bite us in the ***.


Im not against it persey, just wondering the end result.

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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2018, 12:26:57 »
The future of the CAF - drill, dress and deportment:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qDkd56Scg

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 12:35:43 by Simian Turner »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2018, 12:30:59 »
Or is it because our recruit pool is so shallow that we think by loosening dress regs we'll attract more people?

In the case of the latter I wonder if people who's deciding factor on serving in uniform is wearing beards 'n' long hair really a great crowd to target.  I know certain cultures have cultural attachments with hair and beards and that's fine but what about just some dude who's big decision hinges on how long we'll let him have his hair for the sake of vanity?

Good question.

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2018, 12:34:25 »
I'm with Ditch- if your safety gears fits properly and your face piercings (or whatever) aren't a danger to yourself or others- I am past caring about it.

As noted in the various "buttons and bows" threads, we spend too much time and energy on appearance in the CAF.

How about a group of truly lethal, pierced, tattooed and longhaired soldiers/sailors/aviators? If that is the trade off- I can get behind that.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2018, 12:38:51 »
Anyone who instructs will likely tell you there's big (ha) physical fitness issues with recruits/students and people are absolutely addicted to social media and electronics. Will relaxed dress and deportment or grooming or whatever actually be beneficial or bite us in the ***.

Surely, some other nation that has relaxed (compared to us) dress regs, say, some of the Scandinavian countries or the Dutch, would have had to grapple with the same issues re: PT and electronics.  I'd like to see if it has affected their forces to the same degree.

However, having worked with Americans and others, the most I've heard them say about our current beard policy was "that's cool", not that we're slovenly - our lack of properly fitting uniforms does that already  :facepalm:
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Teager

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2018, 12:39:38 »
Jarnhammer I was thinking the same thing. If they are needing recruits badly I doubt these dr ess regs are going to drive the numbers they need. Why not bring back signing bonuses if there is a real need?

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2018, 12:47:07 »
Although everyone is taught the importance during basic training of taking care of their personal appearance and hygiene, maintaining that sense of pride varies with time.  I have worked with members of all ranks who's uniforms stink of cigarette smoke, their breath stinks due to poor dental hygiene habits and their body odour in general is revolting.  I look forward to the future as a veteran looking back to a place and time before the animals took over the zoo.
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

jollyjacktar

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2018, 12:57:19 »
Why not bring back signing bonuses if there is a real need?

The navy is sending out letters to recently retired members asking them to consider coming back.  I have read a copy sent to a retired LSHT.  It's been greeted with gales of laughter from what l am being told. 

In knowing what has happened within the past year now, we were shaking our heads and laughing in the office too.  It's cringe worthy reading.

Also heard whispers of targeted signing bonus being considered too, but that is most likely just fantasy.

Offline Teager

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2018, 13:21:11 »
The navy is sending out letters to recently retired members asking them to consider coming back.  I have read a copy sent to a retired LSHT.  It's been greeted with gales of laughter from what l am being told. 

In knowing what has happened within the past year now, we were shaking our heads and laughing in the office too.  It's cringe worthy reading.

Also heard whispers of targeted signing bonus being considered too, but that is most likely just fantasy.

I was thinking of the bonuses more for new recruits. What the Navy should have done was sit down with the experience d guys said that they have a real value and the Navy still has a need for them what can we do to keep you a bit longer before they release.

Maybe for new recruits just tell them they can get the latest iPhone or Samsung smartphone every 2 years upgraded as an incentive.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2018, 13:40:24 »
What the Navy should have done was sit down with the experience d guys said that they have a real value and the Navy still has a need for them what can we do to keep you a bit longer before they release.

A "we need you so don't quit" speech, when the folks who get back in from getting a letter are going to get a bank deposit?   ???

Quote
Maybe for new recruits just tell them they can get the latest iPhone or Samsung smartphone every 2 years upgraded as an incentive.

Or, how about an IPC (whether you deserve it or not) and promotions for people who perform and merit?

Ok on relaxing hair and beard regs a little...but we still need people who serve because they want to serve.  New iPhones are pretty expensive, can I take mine as a  spousal RRSP deposit instead??
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2018, 13:53:40 »
Teager, the navy is facing a two issues at the same time, yes, recruiting and retention.

They're having difficulty in attracting new folks into the engineering trades.  My old trade, HT, never had that problem we were always successful in attracting recruits and remusters.  The Stokers, were not being able to bring in more than what was leaving, not even close.
That trend is continuing, even with the new trade.

Add onto that retention.  The release rate for legacy HT remains about 3 times pre amalgamation rates.  What they're losing is the experienced guys and a great deal of the juniors, tomorrow's leaders. 

For those who have moved on in civilian life and are pensioned.  To seriously think they might be attracted to take a huge pay cut and come into a new trade that has the thinnest of bread slices on that crap sandwich is laughable at best.

The number of releases for Chiefs this past week has been staggering.  The bleeding continues.

Offline Petard

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2018, 14:50:23 »
I recall this subject coming up during a PD session given by Dave Grossman ("On Killing" author), to 2 RCR before they deployed to Afghanistan in 2007.
Near as I can remember, the discussion came up during the Q and A part of his presentation, near the end of the day

Basically the question centered on why does the military fixate on things like hair style. He had an interesting response, that basically turned it around to those asking the question, on why was it important to them that the military appease the vanities of their ego. That set a bit of murmur going, but the general response was that it seemed unnecessary. So he followed it up that, in his view, in certain elite organizations such as SFOR units, the professional bar is so high it doesn't need markers and rituals to establish reliability to regulations and procedures. But to the larger general soldierly there has been a tradition of imposing this ritual, as a demonstration of willingness to follow orders, however mundane they may be. And many of the general soldier tasks are very mundane. He further went to ask those who want to challenge this at where they would draw the line: drill with arms, barrack inspections? If you're unwilling to do something as harmless as getting your hair cut, or performing drill movements, what do you do to demonstrate your willingness, and reliability, to perform the more difficult responsibilities (or even the mundane ones).

I think he had a valid point, especially when you consider how the public would view this. These things evolved and remained as a means to ensure the public sees the military as having enforced discipline.  That it's not readily accepted by those joining the military does not mean we should necessarily abandon the idea in hopes of improving recruiting.

Some here have touted the Dutch example, even suggesting they're better because of it. There's no proof of that, and in this RAND paper it is clear their military is facing challenges similar to ours. So no example there that relaxed hair style is helping with recruiting or retention either
www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/technical_reports/2010/RAND_TR690.pdf

The Germany military, briefly in the 70's, allowed very relaxed hair regs, mostly because they were dealing with a very large conscript army at the time. But even here they abandoned the idea for a couple of sound operational reasons
www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-german-hair-force-a-failed-experiment-in-military-manes-a-744992.html

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2018, 14:53:30 »
Teager, the navy is facing a two issues at the same time, yes, recruiting and retention.

They're having difficulty in attracting new folks into the engineering trades.  My old trade, HT, never had that problem we were always successful in attracting recruits and remusters.  The Stokers, were not being able to bring in more than what was leaving, not even close.
That trend is continuing, even with the new trade.

Add onto that retention.  The release rate for legacy HT remains about 3 times pre amalgamation rates.  What they're losing is the experienced guys and a great deal of the juniors, tomorrow's leaders. 

For those who have moved on in civilian life and are pensioned.  To seriously think they might be attracted to take a huge pay cut and come into a new trade that has the thinnest of bread slices on that crap sandwich is laughable at best.

The number of releases for Chiefs this past week has been staggering.  The bleeding continues.

HHT that's so sad...

Scandinavian countries amoungst others have had operators, operating, operationally (yes, I said that) for years with more contemporary "grooming standards"  I am not sure what the hub-ub is about. 

Just FYI our current C4 CBRN mask designed while Pioneers were alive and well.  If it will work for them, or they found a way to make it work, then it will be fine now in my opinion.

Not to mention the RCN in particular.  Other Navies use similar systems to the Dragger and they are ok with beards, I am not sure why we have to go crazy about things.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2018, 14:59:04 »
I am not sure why we have to go crazy about things.

Because we have wayyyyy too many people sitting around in HQs and the like with no 'real' jobs?

Because we are, largely, not involved with any 'real' operations on a large scale?

Because we think we need to 'change' so people outside the military like us more and want to join us?
Do I love my job?  No.

But does it afford me the ability to go on lavish vacations and buy anything I want?  Also no.

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Re: Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2018, 15:03:57 »
Petard, l suggest the short hair requirement wasn't "developed", it was a necessity for hygiene and wound management in the trenches of the first world war.

At any rate, looking at many of the Brits in the sandbox, they were sporting fairly thick doos and it didn't seem to slow them down in either effectiveness or professionalism.  I'm not totally convinced your argument holds full weight.