Author Topic: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual  (Read 36910 times)

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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2018, 01:40:02 »
Military fashion is constantly evolving, as are our grooming standards. They weren't passed down from on high and in force since time immemorial.

Note General Otter, a former CO 2RCR and CGS. His sideburns are tremendous and his moustache certainly extends past the corners of his mouth. So clearly at least our sideburns and moustache policies are rather recent inventions.



And check out MGen Smyth, the first Commander of the Canadian Militia, he certainly seemed to have no problem with facial hair.



Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2018, 08:52:18 »
I am of the opinion that relaxing of grooming standards is not the end of the world. We spend too much time and energy enforcing arbitrary hair rules on males that we do not also enforce on females (to pick one example).

I am ok with this.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2018, 09:06:01 »
I am of the opinion that relaxing of grooming standards is not the end of the world. We spend too much time and energy enforcing arbitrary hair rules on males that we do not also enforce on females (to pick one example).

I am ok with this.

Me too.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2018, 09:08:29 »
I’m not too fussed about this but I’m retired so I really don’t have a say.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2018, 09:11:06 »
I’m not too fussed about this but I’m retired so I really don’t have a say.

Meanwhile, Canadians seem to have a say about the RCMP:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-man-bun-tattoo-survey-1.4612725
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2018, 09:13:57 »
I am going to have a crazy set of mutton chops, when all of this come to pass....

Offline kratz

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2018, 09:37:51 »
*** Oh won't someone think of the children barbers! ***
These changes will put two thirds of them out of business. Though hairdressers might see a slight bump in business.   :rofl:  [/sarcasm]

The CAF appears to bend to local economic demands, when businesses protest potential changes.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2018, 09:48:41 »
That is a good point.

I had not considered the impending jobless rate amongst base barbers...

Online E.R. Campbell

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2018, 09:59:30 »
 :boring:

< yawn >

I joined an army, over a half century ago, that allowed quite long hair ...

     

... it was the fashion and only cleanliness and comfort made us deviate from style, usually in the field.

     

Some people liked "short back and sides" even then, others preferred to look a little more like the rest of society ... obviously, during recruit training and e.g. junior NCO course some people wanted to go to ridiculous extremes but my recollection says that most of us wanted to be neat, tidy and as stylish as good taste allowed.

I think we need to move with the times ... common sense will, usually, prevail, especially at sea and in the field.

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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Teager

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2018, 10:50:43 »
So if beards and long hair are allowed I guess the cool/special look factor and perk of some will fade like pioneers.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2018, 11:02:09 »
*** Oh won't someone think of the children barbers! ***
These changes will put two thirds of them out of business.
Perhaps it's the opposite situation.  The boatloads of undocumented barbers washing up on our shores (without even 5-6 years of university-level Scissor-ology!) is what's driving this change;  the market simply doesn't have enough qualified clippers to handle the CAF's bi-weekly stylin'  (monthly for RCAF)
              :pop:
Sadly amazed at people cheering on the spread of kakistocracy.   :not-again:

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2018, 18:54:33 »
monthlyish for RCAF             

No sense wasting TD money on stuff like haircuts, although there is one Turkish barber shop in Elgin that is well worth 20 quid for the hot towel shave and cut. 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 19:51:30 by Eye In The Sky »
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Online NavyShooter

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2018, 21:56:09 »
The same people (or their ilk) who thought that the world would end as a result of a host of things, including: unification, women serving on ships and in the combat arms, homosexuals serving in the military at all etc, and also thought that drinking during the day, strippers in the mess at lunch, driving home drunk, hazing, and abusive leadership were all good things.

Just saying.


Buttons, bows, balding, beards, whatever.  If it helps the recruiting numbers, makes the jobs we offer more appealing to the current generation, and doesn't impact the professionalism or the operational outcomes, who cares? 


Remember the pictures of the troops with the mohawks getting on the C-47s to rain lawn darts of death across Normandy in 1944? 


We need troops in the doors, and the naysayers or 'autonegators' will always be there.  Wifi and goatees....*shrug*  maybe it'll work?


<sotto voce>


And what's this about strippers?


</sotto voce>

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Once_a_TQ

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2018, 08:36:16 »
I doubt anything will come to light in regards to beards by the summer time frame. I say this based on the attached copy of the minutes of the CF Dress Committee meeting from 30 Nov 17 that I got earlier this month.

Points of interest :
Para 5 - Ceremonial Belts and Accoutrements
Para 6 – Tattoo Policy
Para 7 – Turban Policy
Para 12 – Muslim Headdress
Para 13 – Beard Policy
Para 18 – Sash
Para 19 – Wearing Commendation for Female Personal
Para 22 – Colour Carrying Belt
Para 24 – HCol Wearing Command Badge
Para 25 – Long Sleeve Shirts
Para 27 – Poppy Location in 3A (Long sleeve shirt and tie no over garment)
Para 28 – Poppy Location for women
 
Several other topics are include in the document.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:33 »
Where did you find that? My DWAN bookmark for those minutes hasn't been updated since 2016's meetings.

Offline Once_a_TQ

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2018, 09:35:41 »
Where did you find that? My DWAN bookmark for those minutes hasn't been updated since 2016's meetings.

I know the link your talking about.

But this came from an email chain that was stared 28 Feb 18 by G1 Dress and Ceremonial. I had it forwarded to me earlier this month.


Online FSTO

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2018, 10:06:03 »
I know the link your talking about.

But this came from an email chain that was stared 28 Feb 18 by G1 Dress and Ceremonial. I had it forwarded to me earlier this month.

Another example of routine unclass correspondence not being released in a timely manner.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2018, 10:17:29 »
Once_a_TQ, you left one of the best point out: After all these years with people buying the single most useful piece of gear (the CANEX windbreaker jacket), the CAF is finally waking up to making it an issue item. Only took them 25 years - pretty speedy for the CAF.  ;D

There is another point, as far as I am concerned, that arises from those minutes, that I would like to address. Where our interests intersect, there is no reasons not to rely on RCMP research. In my view, however, dress, deportment, grooming standard, etc. are not areas where they do.

The  RCMP studies how the public interacts with them and how their appearance affects the public's perception. That's fine but there is a relation with the public that is different from the military ones and I for one don't believe that they intersect.

You see, the RCMP is the police: They are, for the public, the representation in their life of the power of the state over them as enforcers of the law. Military personnel, on the other hand is the representation of the power of the state in their favour, against external enemies - protecting the public from external harm. I suggest in the public's mind, that it is a more positive relationship to start with as result. I therefore suggest that, where appearance is concerned, we should carry out our own research and not rely on the RCMP. We could find some pretty surprising facts.  :nod:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 10:37:06 by Oldgateboatdriver »

Offline kratz

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2018, 10:32:37 »
Again,
Well said points OGBD. Feels like we're enjoying drinks on George St, in Saint John's.   :cheers:
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2018, 10:50:16 »
What I find disturbing in these minutes is that it appears the Dress Committee, which only has ONE naval member, has effectively killed high-collar white uniforms for the Navy.  Things that are unique to one element should not need agreement from the Dress Committee as a whole.  The Navy would never dream of telling the Army they can't wear red coats, so why should the Army be able to tell the Navy they can't wear white ones?

Yet, we can find money to outfit special forces personnel with uniforms they will never wear...
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2018, 11:19:54 »
What I find disturbing in these minutes is that it appears the Dress Committee, which only has ONE naval member, has effectively killed high-collar white uniforms for the Navy.  Things that are unique to one element should not need agreement from the Dress Committee as a whole.  The Navy would never dream of telling the Army they can't wear red coats, so why should the Army be able to tell the Navy they can't wear white ones?

Yet, we can find money to outfit special forces personnel with uniforms they will never wear...

You raise solid points Pusser.  I am 100% in agreement with you.
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Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2018, 11:21:24 »
What I find disturbing in these minutes is that it appears the Dress Committee, which only has ONE naval member, has effectively killed high-collar white uniforms for the Navy.  Things that are unique to one element should not need agreement from the Dress Committee as a whole.  The Navy would never dream of telling the Army they can't wear red coats, so why should the Army be able to tell the Navy they can't wear white ones?

Yet, we can find money to outfit special forces personnel with uniforms they will never wear...

Honestly a good amount of the dress uniforms should just be phased out, in my opinion. I've got a closet full of stuff I "need to have" but rarely wear. Gabradines, DEU rain coats, DEU parade boots, DEU winter boots, Oxfords, parkas, mess dress. They ought to just standardize a single layout for "dress uniforms" (IE DEU 1A) and be done with it. Make the parka the only winter time jacket. Holding onto a giant coat in my closet for the last 18 years when I only have worn it probably 3 times is nonsense. Now that we have the parka it's twice the nonsense. The parka is fairly warm and I've worn it about 10 times as often in the last year than I have the gabradine in my entire career. Holding onto it for parades is kind of nonsense too, since the gabradine looks awful so usually they just do the parade in tunic. If it's absolutely too cold to do a parade in 1As without a coat, then just wear the parka or maybe question whether a parade is really neccesary.
Same with mess dress. It's pretty pointless and the concept of buying a $1200 suit to wear once a year is borderline madness. I get some people like the mess dress or maybe even have a fetish for the gabradine, but compelling 50,000+ people to have these things for the few edge cases is a massive waste. Should just streamline the whole thing.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2018, 11:23:17 »
No reason for a second dress uniform at public expense. Optional item? Certainly.

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Offline Remius

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2018, 11:29:22 »
What I find disturbing in these minutes is that it appears the Dress Committee, which only has ONE naval member, has effectively killed high-collar white uniforms for the Navy.  Things that are unique to one element should not need agreement from the Dress Committee as a whole.  The Navy would never dream of telling the Army they can't wear red coats, so why should the Army be able to tell the Navy they can't wear white ones?

Yet, we can find money to outfit special forces personnel with uniforms they will never wear...

Killed it?  I think it was just opposition to it being considered 1B instead of 1 C or D.  High collar whites still exist and are allowed, not unlike patrol dress blues.

What is the reason to move it to 1 B?  Sharp looking?  Historical precedent?  The UK doing it? Does the Navy not have a full dress uniform already?

Honest questions, not trying to stir the pot. 
Optio

Offline Pre-flight

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Re: Upcoming Changes to the Dress Manual
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2018, 11:30:04 »
No reason for a second dress uniform at public expense. Optional item? Certainly.

Optional becomes "recommended" which eventually becomes "go talk to the RSM/Adjt and tell them why you think you shouldn't buy one" and eventually becomes accepted as mandatory.