Author Topic: Not being covered if no leave pass  (Read 1755 times)

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Offline trooper142

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Not being covered if no leave pass
« on: August 16, 2017, 09:00:23 »
Hey everyone, I looked around but couldn't find my answer, so if there is a topic already, I apologize.

My question is regarding leave. A member I know was given a day off in renumeration for a day worked they normally shouldn't have worked. This day off was granted by their immediate supervisor, and no leave pass was given.

This member then proceeded to be talked to upon their return to work the following day, saying that they're lucky something didn't happen to them, otherwise they wouldn't be covered, and if they wanted a day off next time for the same situation, they would have to submit a memo, which would have to be approved by the CO; for policy reasons

Is this rooted in policy somewhere, or is this just speaking out the side of your mouth so to speak. I'm looking for a reference either in favour of this or to discredit this view point.

Thanks everyone
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:05:43 by trooper142 »

Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 10:12:52 »
The CO sets working and non-working days, and can do so on a unit wide basis or an individual basis.

If the CO determined that the member already worked a full work-week because he worked on a day he normally wouldn't work, he can simply say "ok, for this week, your work schedule is Tuesday-Friday", and that's that.

You don't need a leave pass to go home on the weekend, and the member's leave just became Saturday-Monday.
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Offline trooper142

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 10:35:39 »
The CO sets working and non-working days, and can do so on a unit wide basis or an individual basis.

If the CO determined that the member already worked a full work-week because he worked on a day he normally wouldn't work, he can simply say "ok, for this week, your work schedule is Tuesday-Friday", and that's that.

You don't need a leave pass to go home on the weekend, and the member's leave just became Saturday-Monday.

so is it safe to say that the member's immediate chain of command should not have given the member the day off without seeking permission from the CO in the form of a memo?

I understand it is the prerogative of the CO to handle their units, but isn't that a bit much? A member works a stat holiday, that they volunteer for, and are given a day off in return by their MCpl as a thank you. Seems pretty straight forward, I can't understand why the member's chain is using the argument that the member would not be covered? Can anyone provide some clarification to the 'not being covered' argument. I have heard it several times, but no one ever seems to know the reference when asked; it's always "thats the way it has always been, so thats the way it is" type of response.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 10:57:29 »
Well, for starters the Leave should be known/approved higher than the Jack level, IMO....the CO and his/her immediate subordinates, etc are responsible to run the unit, which is hard to do if MCpls are giving days off to people.  Our CO delegates the leave for aircrew to the Maj level and I am not sure he'd be too happy if he went to put a plane in the air on a Wednesday only to find out some Mcpls gave the Cpls a day off.  I'd bet that crew commander would be on the receiving end of a knife hand (air force style knife hand :) ).  As a crew Lead, I make recommendations on stuff like NWDs for my folks to the crew commander but its above my level to approve it.

Without looking at the Leave Policy Manual, IIRC *CTOs* aren't allowed anymore;  at my unit, we use NWD (Non-Working Days) for compensation for things like duty weekends that happen regularly and have a system where the CofC can see who is/isn't at work on any given day and...the authority to authorize NWDs is delegated down and all of this is covered in Sqn Orders (including who is and isn't deemed shift workers...as that relates back directly to the Leave Policy Manual stuff as well).

As for *not being covered*, if you are on leave or away from your place of duty and get injured, the injury wouldn't be considered *in the performance of a military duty*...if the injury is significant and the member is on MELs, looking at a T or P Cat, medical release, support from DVA...those are all important things.  I think there are even check boxes on the CF98 for 2 specific question about if the injury is duty related and if the injury happened in the performance of a military duty...something like that.  Does this matter?  It sure did for me when I hurt myself back years ago and the unit I was at then filled out a proper CF98 and ticked the boxes correctly.  When, years later, I filed for a DVA claim that CF98 was a key document;  my claim was received one month and approved the next, as I had the required supporting documents.  Result - disability pension at 10% for the rest of my life.  Tax free pension at that.

If you are ever recalled to work while on a leave pass, it is important to submit the paperwork to cancel/amend leave for reasons like this.  Years later, if you claim an injury happened on duty and your leave record shows you as being on leave that day, harder to prove it was a military duty related injury...can't be on duty and leave at the same time, right?

I could be wrong or not 100% correct in my interpretation of course.   :2c:
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 11:04:31 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 11:05:54 »
This member then proceeded to be talked to upon their return to work the following day, saying that they're lucky something didn't happen to them, otherwise they wouldn't be covered, (...snip)

This is not entirely true. They would have received necessary medical care for their injury. They would have continued to be eligible for their normal benefits. However, they would not have been entitled to a DVA pension. The same holds true if you slip and fall in your driveway on the way to work. You're not eligible for a DVA pension as there is no military nexus (going to work is not the same as at work for pension purposes).

So the short version is that as RegF, you are always covered for your normal benefits, but only covered for a DVA pension while at work. That being said, having a Short Leave pass is still a good idea.
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Offline trooper142

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2017, 11:14:06 »
This is not entirely true. They would have received necessary medical care for their injury. They would have continued to be eligible for their normal benefits. However, they would not have been entitled to a DVA pension. The same holds true if you slip and fall in your driveway on the way to work. You're not eligible for a DVA pension as there is no military nexus (going to work is not the same as at work for pension purposes).

So the short version is that as RegF, you are always covered for your normal benefits, but only covered for a DVA pension while at work. That being said, having a Short Leave pass is still a good idea.

That's what I thought!

Any chance you have a reference I can provide the member?

Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 11:42:13 »
Without looking at the Leave Policy Manual, IIRC *CTOs* aren't allowed anymore;  at my unit, we use NWD (Non-Working Days) for compensation for things like duty weekends that happen regularly and have a system where the CofC can see who is/isn't at work on any given day and...the authority to authorize NWDs is delegated down and all of this is covered in Sqn Orders (including who is and isn't deemed shift workers...as that relates back directly to the Leave Policy Manual stuff as well).

we still use CTO's. We have a COTM dedicated to the application of our CTO policy. Whether it's called CTOs or NWDs, it's all just CO's prerogative to ensure that member's of his unit are not overworked, and neither appear in the CF Leave Policy manual (I checked).

But I agree, a MCpl shouldn't be giving Cpls CTO/NWDs, unless it's expressly stated in a unit policy.
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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 11:45:40 »
Not off the top of my head, but the rationale is as follows:

The member must be on duty. If off duty, there must be a service related nexus to the event.

For example: member is on leave prior to going on course. IAW unit orders, the member comes in to clear out their locker before departing and falls down some stairs. Q: was the member on duty? A: No. Q: is there a service related nexus? A: yes. Result: would likely be covered.

While not specifically germane to your question, CBI 210.72 has a very good definition of service nexus, and some examples that help to explain.

Remember, we're talking solely about a disability entitlement, so in the end though, it will be VAC which decides if a VAC pension is appropriate.The definitions in the CBI would serve to help one make their argument, but that specific CBI has no bearing on RegF members.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 12:14:41 »
we still use CTO's. We have a COTM dedicated to the application of our CTO policy. Whether it's called CTOs or NWDs, it's all just CO's prerogative to ensure that member's of his unit are not overworked, and neither appear in the CF Leave Policy manual (I checked).

The yellow part is the important part, but just for future ref WRT NWDs (this part I am familiar with as aircrew are deemed shiftworkers in our Sqn Os):

From the current online CF Leave Policy Manual

1.1.22 Shift worker
A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days.

2.2.01 Reckoning time
Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.

Section 2.8 Shift Work
2.8.01 Scheduling
The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays. Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless. In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 12:21:18 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 13:23:28 »
The yellow part is the important part, but just for future ref WRT NWDs (this part I am familiar with as aircrew are deemed shiftworkers in our Sqn Os):

From the current online CF Leave Policy Manual

1.1.22 Shift worker
A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days.

2.2.01 Reckoning time
Except in the case of short leave, leave begins at 0000 hours on the commencement date and ends at 2400 hours on the last day of leave.
Weekends, designated and other holidays (listed in Annex A of this chapter), or in the case of shift workers’ scheduled non-working days (designated as weekends on the CF 100), shall not be charged against any leave that is granted in working days; although, such days will normally form part of the leave period.

Section 2.8 Shift Work
2.8.01 Scheduling
The concept of a weekend for a shift worker is not restricted to Saturdays and Sundays. Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week, but it is a schedule nonetheless. In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that the amount of time off is equivalent to the weekends and statutory holidays provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday work-week.

That definitely supports your NWDs, but it probably wouldn't work for us.

Our extra work doesn't come from working entirely extra days, but from working extra-long existing days. So, the unit's work week is Monday-Friday like everyone else, so we're not shift worked. However, during that 5 days spread, we work the equivalent of 6 "normal" work days. As a result, our CTO policy has full-time members of the unit only work 4 days a week (Tuesday-Friday or Monday-Thursday). We're not "shift-workers", but so we've simply had our work schedule amended accordingly.
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 13:43:16 »

I understand it is the prerogative of the CO to handle their units, but isn't that a bit much? A member works a stat holiday, that they volunteer for, and are given a day off in return by their MCpl as a thank you. Seems pretty straight forward, I can't understand why the member's chain is using the argument that the member would not be covered? Can anyone provide some clarification to the 'not being covered' argument. I have heard it several times, but no one ever seems to know the reference when asked; it's always "thats the way it has always been, so thats the way it is" type of response.

The concept and application of policy regarding "CTO" vice "working days/non-working days" as well as the "coverage" while on leave is already being well discussed.  The circumstances (highlighted in yellow) of your acquaintance being given a day off work by a MCpl is another matter.  I take it that the individual in question has a regular work schedule and would have normally have had that stat holiday off.  That situation is accounted for in QR&Os and the leave manual and not surprisingly MCpls don't have the authority to say thank you by granting that time of.

Quote
Section 9.1 Short Leave

9.1.01 Policy

The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class B or C Reserve Service with time away from their duties to:
•compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest (this includes stat holidays - my comment);
•provide members with time away from their duties to conduct urgent personal business; or
•reward exemplary work.

9.1.03 Approval Authority

The CO may grant short leave.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 14:42:33 »
That definitely supports your NWDs, but it probably wouldn't work for us.

Our extra work doesn't come from working entirely extra days, but from working extra-long existing days. So, the unit's work week is Monday-Friday like everyone else, so we're not shift worked. However, during that 5 days spread, we work the equivalent of 6 "normal" work days. As a result, our CTO policy has full-time members of the unit only work 4 days a week (Tuesday-Friday or Monday-Thursday). We're not "shift-workers", but so we've simply had our work schedule amended accordingly.

Pretty much exactly how we worked it when I was at a CBG HQ where we worked the normal *trg nights/weekends* the Cl A folks did.  I miss those 3 day weekends sometimes...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 14:47:47 »
Pretty much exactly how we worked it when I was at a CBG HQ where we worked the normal *trg nights/weekends* the Cl A folks did.  I miss those 3 day weekends sometimes...

It is nice having every Monday off, but I don't know if it's worth working 0800-2200 every Tuesday and Thursday. Sure, I get 1600-1900 off, but I don't leave my desk right at 1600, I have to drive home and back to work, and my time spent at home is short and usually spent cooking and eating. It's kind of like just getting a second lunch break, so it feels like I'm working form 0800-2200. What's worse, is we have "duty watch" once every other month, which requires us to show up at 1830 vice 1900, and stay until the messes close (midnight) and then do rounds and lock up, which makes for an extremely long day.
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 15:58:38 »
I remember having a discussion with my OC many moons ago and the argument was that if the travel was within 50 km of home base you didn't need a pass. Anything over and you did. Again, long time ago and my memory may have been faulty or the regulation has been superseded.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 16:01:56 »
I remember having a discussion with my OC many moons ago and the argument was that if the travel was within 50 km of home base you didn't need a pass. Anything over and you did. Again, long time ago and my memory may have been faulty or the regulation has been superseded.

I think if you search this site, you'll find the argument that you need a leave pass for daily or weekend leave is something that is generally just made up and not established by any legal policy.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 16:34:35 »
I think if you search this site, you'll find the argument that you need a leave pass for daily or weekend leave is something that is generally just made up and not established by any legal policy.

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:

•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis. 
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 14:11:22 »
That definitely supports your NWDs, but it probably wouldn't work for us.

Our extra work doesn't come from working entirely extra days, but from working extra-long existing days. So, the unit's work week is Monday-Friday like everyone else, so we're not shift worked. However, during that 5 days spread, we work the equivalent of 6 "normal" work days. As a result, our CTO policy has full-time members of the unit only work 4 days a week (Tuesday-Friday or Monday-Thursday). We're not "shift-workers", but so we've simply had our work schedule amended accordingly.

That would make you a shift worker.  Shift 1 is Mon to Thu, shift 2 is Tue to Fri.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2017, 14:13:42 »
That would make you a shift worker.  Shift 1 is Mon to Thu, shift 2 is Tue to Fri.

Makes sense.

Is there any authority I can go to confirm this? Does a superior commander need to officially establish that the unit is working under a shift-work structure? Can the CO make that determination?
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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2017, 14:42:59 »
Makes sense.

Is there any authority I can go to confirm this? Does a superior commander need to officially establish that the unit is working under a shift-work structure? Can the CO make that determination?

I believe the CO has the authority to establish the unit work routine, but it should be promulgated in both Standing and Routine Orders.
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Re: Not being covered if no leave pass
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2017, 14:52:17 »
Makes sense.

Is there any authority I can go to confirm this? Does a superior commander need to officially establish that the unit is working under a shift-work structure? Can the CO make that determination?

Actually, it is defined in the Leave Policy Manual and I quoted it above...

Quote
1.1.22 Shift worker
A shift worker is a person who does not necessarily have a working day schedule of Monday to Friday with Saturday, Sunday and designated and/or statutory holidays scheduled as non-working days.

Our Sqn Orders, signed and published under the CO, designate who is/is not shift workers..so, in (parts of the) RCAF the authority is the Sqn/Unit CO vice Wing Comd or Div.

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