Author Topic: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.  (Read 3748 times)

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Offline Shrek1985

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http://www.everyjoe.com/2017/03/13/politics/kill-enemies-win/#1

Before you slam it as nonsense; take a look at the man's credentials and his other work.

Personally; I feel like the writing is on the wall, but I'd love to hear what other people think.

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 17:25:55 »
http://www.everyjoe.com/2017/03/13/politics/kill-enemies-win/#1

Before you slam it as nonsense; take a look at the man's credentials and his other work.

Personally; I feel like the writing is on the wall, but I'd love to hear what other people think.
Good start:  "attributing" a quote to Prince Valiant, but footnoting waaaaaaaaaaay at the bottom saying, "As far as I know and believe, the fool has never said this"

If you like the idea of another country under one leader running Canada's security, remember to think about what it would be like under a different leader you're not so happy with.  Just like that "values questionnaire" thing - great, as long as you agree with the values being asked about.
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Offline Scott

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 17:35:39 »
Good start:  "attributing" a quote to Prince Valiant, but footnoting waaaaaaaaaaay at the bottom saying, "As far as I know and believe, the fool has never said this"

If you like the idea of another country under one leader running Canada's security, remember to think about what it would be like under a different leader you're not so happy with.  Just like that "values questionnaire" thing - great, as long as you agree with the values being asked about.

It was more like footnote # 4 that made me regret wasting the time it took to read this.

Be nice for no reason.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2017, 17:40:08 »
It was more like footnote # 4 that made me regret wasting the time it took to read this.

Not the People's Republic of Massachusetts?  I thought it was Fallout fan fiction for second there.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2017, 19:08:18 »
Still, lots of poison in that boil.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline RocketRichard

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 20:37:15 »
http://www.everyjoe.com/2017/03/13/politics/kill-enemies-win/#1

Before you slam it as nonsense; take a look at the man's credentials and his other work.

Personally; I feel like the writing is on the wall, but I'd love to hear what other people think.
Methinks his 'credentials' are shot with this 'work'...


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Offline Remius

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 20:46:33 »
Methinks his 'credentials' are shot with this 'work'...


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I'm going to have to disagree with the title of this thread...I read the quotes and a few phrases.  The comments here should have been a warning. 
Optio

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 20:47:40 »
I suspect he is speaking for an awful lot of Americans, and Australians and Brits and Canadians and Danes, and, and, and, too.

See this column by former journalist, ex-NDP candidate and now teacher Michael Valpy. Mr Valpy is no right wing fanatic, but he "gets" the fear and anger that underlie much of the sentiment that gave us Brexit and Donald Trump and may give us Marine LePen, too.

Mr Kratman is just saying, only slightly more lucidly, what many, Many, MANY people believe. I think it is a mistake to ignore what he says and hide behind the (entirely false) premise that we, Canadians, are in any respect different from our American cousins.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 21:07:09 »
I suspect he is speaking for an awful lot of Americans, and Australians and Brits and Canadians and Danes, and, and, and, too.

See this column by former journalist, ex-NDP candidate and now teacher Michael Valpy. Mr Valpy is no right wing fanatic, but he "gets" the fear and anger that underlie much of the sentiment that gave us Brexit and Donald Trump and may give us Marine LePen, too.

Mr Kratman is just saying, only slightly more lucidly, what many, Many, MANY people believe. I think it is a mistake to ignore what he says and hide behind the (entirely false) premise that we, Canadians, are in any respect different from our American cousins.

Here's a thought.  Arguably the NDP is Canada's original populist party.  And that is one of the reasons that it has been offside with both the Liberals and the Tories.  I'm pretty sure that Preston Manning was not the first to utter the line "Liberal, Tory, Same old Story".

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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 23:34:59 »
Canadians vote on style (hair included), and scandal, not on principle or substance.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 11:17:42 »
Canadians vote on style (hair included), and scandal, not on principle or substance.

A very old story. The Greek philosophers were very contemptuous of idea of Democracy, and Thucydides wrote very clearly of the dangers of Demagogues inflaming the masses and getting the Ekklēsía to vote for ill considered ideas (to the advantage of a particular Demagogue). The Res Publica Roma was an attempt to separate the masses from direct access to powe, as was the Republican structure of the Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta and the government envisioned by the Founders of the United States.

Obviously they were on to something.......
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2017, 11:35:42 »
The inverted pyramid model of government? Interesting.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 22:27:18 »
...but conveniently avoids the fact that his countrymen trained the 9-11 attackers on America's very own territory.  Protect America from the in-flow through Canadian airports and seaports?  Not if you guys are training them from within your own borders.

Popularist this guy may be, but that doesn't mean 175,000,000 of 350,000,000 Americans are right if their own Nation has some issues in the decades to come that are an "unforeseen" side-effect of the disassembly of large portions of current government.  The Confucians in Beijing may indeed only have to wait a couple more decades to see greatness crumble from its own arrogance.

As a last comment, interesting that he sees little to no place for one of the three sides of the Executive-Administrative-Legislative troika...intriguing that what the founding fathers saw as part of the structure of the Nation necessary to provide checks-and-balances to ensure the Constitution endured as intended are now evil black-robers who are eroding what the Executive and 49% of the people today want.

:2c:

G2G

Offline Shrek1985

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 18:14:44 »
Good start:  "attributing" a quote to Prince Valiant, but footnoting waaaaaaaaaaay at the bottom saying, "As far as I know and believe, the fool has never said this"

If you like the idea of another country under one leader running Canada's security, remember to think about what it would be like under a different leader you're not so happy with.  Just like that "values questionnaire" thing - great, as long as you agree with the values being asked about.

And where do you put your footnotes? On the forehead? Admittedly; yeah I prefer a margin-format for notes like this so they go where they are near the point (Like an MLP) and technology allows coding to bring up the note when you hover the cursor over the item in question. But the host doesn't support either option. This is traditional and in fact the same arrangement found in the official Canadian army articles I am reading right now.

But I also prefer non-suffix name-alphabetizing, dropping "the" in all by-title alphabetizing and I'm conflicted over the merits of title-alphabetizing vs subject-alphabetizing. But if you want to talk about our formatting preferences, we can do that elsewhere, no?

Your second point is interesting; I guess I'd say that as a person who feels alienated by popular Canadian values and culture, I know a lesser evil when I see it. There's actually a lot of historical precedence for what we're talking about here; relevant to the article and author; this would include the recent history of Panama. The point isn't what I like or don't like; the point is what the more powerful nation could reasonably see as in their best interest.

But to answer your question, about as much as I like seeing Bill C-51 standing as law under the control of our current political masters, which is kind-of mine and the author's point. No nation exists in a vacuum; we're used to the USA making decisions that affect us, but ours affect them as well; the difference is that if they feel like they need to; they can give us a reality check.

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 19:54:03 »
... if you want to talk about our formatting preferences, we can do that elsewhere, no? ...
You're right, I wasn't quite clear enough -- he starts by saying the PM said something, then says, "as far as I know, he never said this."  Making s**t up to feed the base for effect or continuing to spread admittedly fake news = #CredibilityDemerits

... The point isn't what I like or don't like; the point is what the more powerful nation could reasonably see as in their best interest ... they can give us a reality check.
As long as the reality check in question matches one approach or desired result, not another, right?  That's what I meant about, "it's all great doing what the neighbours want us to do until we don't like the neighbours anymore." 

Same same to the very few I've seen on social media calling for the U.S. to invade Canada to allegedly knock some sense into our system.  The few who've called for that haven't answered my question:  what happens if/when the American government swings back to Democrats?  American Revolution 2.0?  #AllAgreeableUntilYouDisagree

Or maybe I'm judging what he's saying more closely than what he means ...  ;)
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 20:32:48 »
I clicked on the link out of curiosity...wish I hadn't....


Caveat emptor....the link has spam popups....like most "credible" sites....   ::)
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Offline Shrek1985

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 16:52:07 »
You're right, I wasn't quite clear enough -- he starts by saying the PM said something, then says, "as far as I know, he never said this."  Making s**t up to feed the base for effect or continuing to spread admittedly fake news = #CredibilityDemerits

Actually, what he says is that the quote is "Attributed" to the PM and has it in parenthesis. He then goes on (in the footnote, where it belongs) to explain that to his knowledge the PM never said that, as he should admit; but as he's said some pretty remarkable things, it doesn't seem that far out there.

I'll go ahead and assume you're just as dogged and willing to pick gnat excrement from pepper any time you've heard someone attribute the line; "I can see Russia from my house!" to Sarah Palin.

Otherwise; #DARVO

Many a well known quote is often wrongly attributed. When using a quotation, one pulls a little damage control by noting that something is "Attributed" as having been said by someone, rather than doing additional hours of research to nail it down. Additionally, you can use what I think of as "The Old Globe and Mail Trick" of juxtaposition to put two ideas side by side in order to inter-relate them in the mind of the audience.

That the quote in question is poetically appropriate to the attitudes we often face here in Canada is thus very useful in this instance and to juxtapose it with the PM through it's popular attribution is clever. To then note both the attribution and dedicate a footnote to it is to go much farther than most of our own professional journalists in the CBC, Toronto Red Star, ect would, especially when treating an ideological opponent.

Hateth not the player, but rather; the game, sir.

As long as the reality check in question matches one approach or desired result, not another, right?  That's what I meant about, "it's all great doing what the neighbours want us to do until we don't like the neighbours anymore." 

Same same to the very few I've seen on social media calling for the U.S. to invade Canada to allegedly knock some sense into our system.  The few who've called for that haven't answered my question:  what happens if/when the American government swings back to Democrats?  American Revolution 2.0?  #AllAgreeableUntilYouDisagree

I know what you meant and it's not germane.

What any of us *want* isn't the point. The point is that this is a real concern and that bigger, stronger nations intervening in the policy of less powerful ones in order to safeguard their interests is an established fact of history. Our public policies can affect our neighbor and they in turn may choose to protect their own interests.

Basics of a large nation, with a small population and a minuscule military, next door to a richer nation, with a much larger military. "Wants" and "Feels" don't enter into it.

I clicked on the link out of curiosity...wish I hadn't....


Caveat emptor....the link has spam popups....like most "credible" sites....   ::)
I'm sure the CBC is only too happy to provide something more palatable for you.

Oh No! Advertising! Non-State-Sponsored Media! HISSSSSSSS!

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 20:20:27 »
Actually, what he says is

 :blah:

I'm sure the CBC is only too happy to provide something more palatable for you.

Oh No! Advertising! Non-State-Sponsored Media! HISSSSSSSS!

Advertising is one thing.  Spam (and the potential for viruses) is quite another.  ::)
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Offline Altair

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 13:55:31 »
I will never get the time I spent reading that back.

Sad.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline Shrek1985

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2017, 10:45:51 »
:blah:

Advertising is one thing.  Spam (and the potential for viruses) is quite another.  ::)

Killer comeback vs a real argument, buds.

Adblock. It's your friend.

I will never get the time I spent reading that back.

Sad.

Clock is ticking; kind of the point.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Dear Canada; an article we should all read and consider.
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2017, 16:29:11 »
Killer comeback vs a real argument, buds.

Adblock. It's your friend.

There are some on the Internet who see the need to use AdBlock to gain access to serious/professional material as an indicator of the 'quality' of such material...you may not be one, but many here are.

:2c:

G2G