Author Topic: Royal Canadian Air Force headed to mission in Africa ‘very soon’: top general  (Read 295027 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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August is fast approaching.    :whistle:

It’s too late now. With all the work up training etc I think November is more realistic. Just my opinion.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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It’s too late now. With all the work up training etc I think November is more realistic. Just my opinion.


I believe this is part of a carefully planned rotation of aviation support involving, at least, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and, now, Canada ... I think the dates are fixed and have been committed to by Ottawa at the highest levels.

There are three months left and there are a lot of things that need doing ...  :nod: ... backing away or saying, "sorry, not quite ready," is not, it seems to me, an option. "Ready, Aye Ready" is what's required, again.
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Offline winnipegoo7

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How much workup training needs to be done?

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How much workup training needs to be done?
If its anything like Afghanistan, 9 months worth.

Offline winnipegoo7

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Well this doesn’t seem like Afghanistan... we are sending 6 helicopters, not a battle group.

And I’m wondering if workups would have started long before the Mali mission was announced.


Edited to add: I’ve heard of units deploying with very short workup periods as well. 

Offline Good2Golf

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Tac hel squadrons are pretty decent at prepping without some of the extreme(over?) training (i.e. training longer than the deployment itself).  TMST pieces aside, high-readiness elements of aviation are always in the rotational pool, and designated elements will likely be most focused on aligning to the deployment schedule.  It is fortunate that 1 Wing didn't flush its AFG experience after 2011, nor its more recent experience in IRQ, but instead folded those experiences into SOPs, BTS and tactical-level doctrine, and keeps it up to date with regular user interaction with the Canadian Army and other users.

 :2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline Eye In The Sky

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This is something that might not be so familiar to lots of people;  RCAF Operational Sqns maintaining assets (human and aircraft) at considerably higher readiness than most units.  That usually means thru all the DRT SET (IBTS) trg, DAGs, APRVs..basically waiting for some theatre specific PMed and ROE briefs, some simulator time (if possible / required) and off you go (in my fleet).  For a named op, my quickest time from 'phone call to wheels up' is just a little over a day and a half.  I tell my folks, consider yourself on 48 hours NTM for "insert timeframe here".  If I go camping out of province, my license plate # and camp site are on my leave pass.

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Offline MCG

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The government spoke earlier about the value of French Canadian soldiers going to French Africa.  Would that be 430 Sqn with any non-RCAF ground elements coming from 5 CMBG? 

Could we possibly have set the mission deployment dates around Maple Resolve, to which 430 Sqn and 5 CMBG are currently deployed? I am not saying that is how we should do business, just asking if that is what might be going on.

Offline Jarnhamar

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The government spoke earlier about the value of French Canadian soldiers going to French Africa.  Would that be 430 Sqn with any non-RCAF ground elements coming from 5 CMBG? 

Could we possibly have set the mission deployment dates around Maple Resolve, to which 430 Sqn and 5 CMBG are currently deployed? I am not saying that is how we should do business, just asking if that is what might be going on.

French Canadian soldiers going to French Africa.
Lots of soldiers outside of Quebec speak French. If this is the government's mindset then fine but let's turf the PER points for speaking French.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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French Canadian soldiers going to French Africa.
Lots of soldiers outside of Quebec speak French. If this is the government's mindset then fine but let's turf the PER points for speaking French.

You know who our Prime Minister is, right?  ;D
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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I believe the the deployment dates are based on the chinook Sqn reaching OFP, sometime this summer. Like EITS said, most Sqn maintain already an high pers readiness in case of short notice deployment. For instance, during Op Mobile (Libya) I received a phone call on Saturday night and was flying my first mission over there on Thursday.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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I believe the the deployment dates are based on the chinook Sqn reaching OFP, sometime this summer. Like EITS said, most Sqn maintain already an high pers readiness in case of short notice deployment. For instance, during Op Mobile (Libya) I received a phone call on Saturday night and was flying my first mission over there on Thursday.

I wonder what the 'DAG Red' rate was when the Army deployed on OP LENTUS last year? I know that the reserves struggled in some cases...
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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I wonder if all the francophone women in the CAF will be tired of being in Africa when someone crunches the numbers and realizes we probably only have enough for one Roto that'll have to stay deployed permanently to meet the quotas...

Offline Jarnhamar

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I wonder if all the francophone women in the CAF will be tired of being in Africa when someone crunches the numbers and realizes we probably only have enough for one Roto that'll have to stay deployed permanently to meet the quotas...

I mentioned it before, then deleted it, but thinking about it again I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was serious consideration to not deploy white soldiers to Africa. If we can make an argument to specifically send more women as to appear pro-woman to everyone or whatever then I'm sure we could make an argument at the government level about not wanting the optics of white settles  peacekeepers in Africa. A certain group of Canadians would lap up I bet.


As far as deploying and meeting quotas good point. Maybe year long tours, or 3 year postings?
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The government spoke earlier about the value of French Canadian soldiers going to French Africa.  Would that be 430 Sqn with any non-RCAF ground elements coming from 5 CMBG?

We only have three Squadrons to rotate - 408, 430, and 450. Each takes its turn as the core (with augmentation from other 1 Wing and non-1 Wing units) for high-readiness and ultimate deployment, should one occur. We cannot, then, suddenly chuck in a Franco-heavy Squadron in place of the one already in the "Go" position at whim.

1 Wing is very well-standardized across the whole community, as crews/Techs etcetera routinely work with those from Squadrons other than their own. Even mixed crews (on the Griffon side) are quite common on ops or major exercises - one could easily see each crewmember wearing a different Squadron patch.

There are Francos in Anglo-heavy Squadrons as well.

Offline MCG

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We only have three Squadrons to rotate - 408, 430, and 450. Each takes its turn as the core (with augmentation from other 1 Wing and non-1 Wing units) for high-readiness and ultimate deployment, should one occur. We cannot, then, suddenly chuck in a Franco-heavy Squadron in place of the one already in the "Go" position at whim.

1 Wing is very well-standardized across the whole community, as crews/Techs etcetera routinely work with those from Squadrons other than their own. Even mixed crews (on the Griffon side) are quite common on ops or major exercises - one could easily see each crewmember wearing a different Squadron patch.

There are Francos in Anglo-heavy Squadrons as well.
There are francophones and Anglophones all over the country and neither is constrained in postings by the official language of a unit.  But never underestimate the power of political expediency to trump operational considerations.  If waiting just a couple of months will align the stars so that a government (of any political colour) can make a big show of parading French language units out the door to a French language theatre of operations, then I would not be surprised to see them do that.

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That would screw up things far more than it is worth - and Mali will not be our only op on the go. I somewhat doubt that we could put together a whole Franco Chinook component anyway, and certainly not a second roto. Planning and preparation are already underway, and I've heard no mention/hint of any such pressure.

Offline overwatch

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anyone have any idea which RCAF trades will go? I'm thinking pilots, flight engineers, air techs...not sure what else.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Pilots, FEs, Loadmasters, Mission specialists, AVS/AVN/ACS/AWS Techs.  probably Supply, Admin...the required support for flying ops folks.  The hard air trades fly, but only with everyone who puts all the pieces in place doing their important jobs as well.
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Offline dapaterson

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Pilots, FEs, Loadmasters, Mission specialists, AVS/AVN/ACS/AWS Techs.  probably Supply, Admin...the required support for flying ops folks.  The hard air trades fly, but only with everyone who puts all the pieces in place doing their important jobs as well.

And ACSOs.  Don't forget the ACSOs.




I mean, someone has to make the coffee and say "Sure, you could just rely on the GPS, but..."
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Heard/read something the other day (sorry can't remember where) that the plan was to have the choppers deployed by August.
Years ago, fairy tales all began with, "Once upon a time." Now we know they all began with, "If I'm elected."

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Truly embarrassing:

Quote
UN says Canada needs more helicopters to fully meet its peacekeeping commitments in Mali
El Salvador to provide critical aerial cover for ground troops in Mali during Canadian deployment

Canada is taking over a key role in the peacekeeping mission in Mali, but United Nations officials worry it may not be able to fully implement its mandate because it plans to send limited helicopter support.

Ottawa has said it will supply two CH-147 Chinook transport helicopters for logistical support and medical evacuations and four armed CH-146 Griffon helicopter to the UN Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission Mali (MINUSMA).

The UN, meanwhile, is expecting that two Chinooks will be available at any given time — which means Canada would need to send more than two to Mali.

''A helicopter is not like a car. They have planned maintenance,'' said a UN official familiar with the talks. ''Therefore, in order to have two available on a daily basis you would need three."

The UN will meet with a delegation from Canada on Wednesday to discuss the mission's operational requirements, including the availability of two transport helicopters on a daily basis, the official told CBC News.

Germany, which Canada will be replacing in Mali, deployed four NH90 transport helicopters to make sure it had two operational on a daily basis. But that may have had more to do with the fact the NH90 is so new and had never been deployed into the desert, the official said.

The Chinook, on the other hand, is a workhorse that's been in operation for decades. Its quirks and reliability issues in harsh conditions are well known.

Deadliest peacekeeping mission

The four Griffon helicopters Canada is sending to Mali are armed, but they are not full-scale attack helicopters and won't be providing critical fire support from the air to secure convoys and troops on the ground...

Germany currently has four Tiger utility [actually attack] helicopters in Mali to provide protection for troops on the ground. The Netherlands had four Apache attack helicopters and three Chinooks when it was in theatre from 2014 to 2017.

Canada's military, however, doesn't have attack helicopters. The role of the Griffons will be to escort and defend the Chinooks, not protect ground troops.

According to the Canadian military's standard operating procedures, whenever a Chinook is dispatched in a hostile environment, it must be escorted by two armed Griffons for protection.

El Salvador to provide firepower

Instead, El Salvador will provide ground troops with aerial cover. The small Central American nation is supplying six U.S.-built MD500 attack helicopters — two air-cover units consisting of three helicopters.

One of the units has been operating out of Timbuktu in the country's north since 2015. Another trio will deploy in July and is expected to work alongside Canada at the UN mission's base in Gao, in northeast Mali.

The UN would also like Canada to allow the Griffons to do double-duty as light transport helicopters, with El Salvador providing the escort. That request is also expected to come up at Wednesday's meeting.

Germany, meanwhile, will continue to have soldiers in Mali providing ''intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance'' confirmed Peter Neven, a spokesperson at the German Mission to the UN. But the country's helicopter contribution will come to an end June 30.

Canada has said its aerial task force won't be operational until August.

Sources within the UN's peacekeeping department have said contingency plans are already in place, and that arrangements have been made with private contractors to fill any operational gaps that month...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/un-says-canada-needs-more-helicopters-to-fully-meet-its-peacekeeping-commitments-in-mali-1.4632036

El Salvador:

Quote
Armed UN Little Bird Helicopters Are a Big Deal for Peacekeepers in Mali



http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16433/armed-un-little-bird-helicopters-are-a-big-deal-for-peacekeepers-in-mali

Mark
Ottawa
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:55:44 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Online MarkOttawa

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April 13, from Stéphane Dion's close adviser Jocelyn Coulon--excerpts:

Quote
Le jour où Trudeau a déçu l’ONU
Le premier ministre Justin Trudeau a rompu une promesse phare en refusant de réengager 600 soldats dans les missions de paix de l’ONU. Le spécialiste en relations internationales et collaborateur à L’actualité Jocelyn Coulon, qui était conseiller du ministre des Affaires étrangères du Canada, Stéphane Dion, dévoile les coulisses de cette volte-face.

...Le ministre Dion et le ministre de la Défense nationale reçoivent un breffage complet avant une rencontre le 1er décembre 2016 avec les membres du Comité du cabinet sur les affaires internationales.

La veille, à minuit, je prépare les notes de Dion pour ses collègues. Au comité, le ministre Dion présente les scénarios et ils passent la rampe. Il faut maintenant informer le premier ministre. Pendant ce temps, à l’ONU, le bureau du secrétaire général prépare la nomination d’un général canadien francophone à la tête de la Mission au Mali (MINUSMA). Tout est prêt pour une rencontre avec Trudeau afin d’obtenir son accord.

Patatras ! L’entourage du premier ministre panique. Tout va trop vite, dit-on à son bureau. Certains conseillers veulent s’assurer de bien comprendre les différents scénarios. Dès lors, ils préfèrent reporter l’annonce de la participation à une opération de paix à la fin de janvier 2017. Finalement, après des jours de discussions entre les cabinets ministériels et le bureau du premier ministre, le jeudi 15 décembre, Trudeau reçoit du chef d’état-major des Forces armées, le général Jonathan Vance, un breffage de deux heures sur les différents scénarios et sur la proposition d’un déploiement au Mali. Le premier ministre est satisfait. Il entend en discuter au conseil des ministres vers la fin de janvier au retour des vacances des fêtes. À l’ONU, on se dit prêt à retarder la nomination d’un général canadien à la tête de la MINUSMA. Mais le 6 janvier 2017, nouveau coup de théâtre : le premier ministre congédie Dion.

Je quitte le bureau de la nouvelle ministre Chrystia Freeland le 10 février 2017. Son chef de cabinet m’informe que les dossiers que je traite — multilatéralisme, maintien de la paix, Afrique — ne sont pas prioritaires pour elle. Toute son énergie est maintenant concentrée sur les relations avec les États-Unis et la renégociation de l’Accord de libre-échange nord-américain. Le réengagement dans les opérations de paix est pour l’instant dans les limbes. En fait, jusqu’à l’annonce de Vancouver en novembre 2017, le bureau du premier ministre joue au pingpong avec les Affaires étrangères et la Défense nationale. À l’évidence, les conseillers de Trudeau le convainquent de rejeter les scénarios envisagés et d’en réclamer de nouveaux, moins ambitieux...

Le 19 mars 2018, à la surprise générale, le gouvernement annonce le déploiement au sein de la mission de l’ONU au Mali d’un contingent de Casques bleus composé d’une unité de six hélicoptères et d’un groupe de soutien logistique.

Le premier ministre a cédé aux pressions internationales et à celles qui s’exprimaient au sein de son cabinet. Devant certaines décisions de politique étrangère, Justin Trudeau sait se montrer audacieux, mais la plupart du temps, il est réactif plutôt que proactif. Il hésite, il procrastine, il est sujet aux volte-face. Dans le cas de la participation à la mission au Mali, les événements se sont précipités en mars et l’ont forcé à agir. Plusieurs pays alliés qui ont des troupes au Mali, dont l’Allemagne, la France et les Pays-Bas, ont exercé de fortes pressions sur le Canada afin qu’il participe à l’effort commun de maintien de la paix dans ce pays. En particulier, l’Allemagne cherchait un pays disposant d’hélicoptères afin de remplacer les siens sur le terrain...
http://lactualite.com/politique/2018/04/13/le-jour-outrudeau-adecu-lonu/

Quel Charlie Foxtrot, eh?

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Truly embarrassing:

El Salvador:

Mark
Ottawa

It's nice to be wanted though, right Rotorheads? :)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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so instead of 'thanks', its 'not good enough'.

I see the Millennials are already on staff the the UN HQ.   ;D
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