Author Topic: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible  (Read 72371 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #200 on: March 29, 2018, 18:35:36 »
Given that I have printed the same pay statement out twice, ten days apart, and seen radically different numbers, I question IBM's claim that the technical solution is not part of the problem.
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Offline Once_a_TQ

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #201 on: April 26, 2018, 13:17:59 »
And here we go...

"Quebec judge authorizes lawsuit against federal government over Phoenix pay system
Between 40,000 and 70,000 people could be eligible to join the lawsuit"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/quebec-judge-phoenix-lawsuit-1.4635310

Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #202 on: April 26, 2018, 13:53:59 »
As long as it also names the senior management

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #203 on: April 27, 2018, 14:38:44 »
In the "quelle surprise!" department, the GoC won't know if it properly paid out PSAC members in the last contract (due date was November 2017) until the middle of 2019.

Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) President Robyn Benson said the union was advised that the federal government won’t know whether more than 75,200 public servants covered by its largest contract have even been paid properly before June 30, 2019.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/04/27/government-cant-confirm-raises-and-back-pay-owed-to-thousands-of-workers-until-2019/
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #204 on: April 28, 2018, 14:07:41 »
In the "quelle surprise!" department, the GoC won't know if it properly paid out PSAC members in the last contract (due date was November 2017) until the middle of 2019.

Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC) President Robyn Benson said the union was advised that the federal government won’t know whether more than 75,200 public servants covered by its largest contract have even been paid properly before June 30, 2019.

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/04/27/government-cant-confirm-raises-and-back-pay-owed-to-thousands-of-workers-until-2019/

You'd make history of you ever managed to have Phoenix awarded an Ig-Noble prize: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2533563/it-project-management/it-s-biggest-project-failures----and-what-we-can-learn-from-them.html
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #205 on: April 30, 2018, 10:26:00 »
Phoenix is going to have a big impact on fleet personal retention and advancement, 100% of the personal are affected, why would anyone join up at this point? Speaking a to a friend who is a senior officer, there is a huge experience gap between the generation of senior officers retiring with 30 years and new up and coming officers with only 5 years post college to replace them. 

Offline FJAG

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #206 on: September 22, 2018, 22:55:45 »
Quote
Ryerson: Fixing Phoenix means fixing management too
BOB RYERSON   Updated: September 21, 2018

The government says it will start testing prototypes of replacements for the Phoenix pay system very soon. But have the essential lessons been learned?

Phoenix is simply the biggest and most obvious example of a wider management and leadership malaise that has been growing for decades within the federal public service.

When I began my career as a scientist in government in 1973, my director general, Dr. Larry Morley, was a leading scientist in his own right, as was the deputy director general, Lee Godby. Future leaders, including those from minority groups, were grown within the organization from among scientists and engineers either in the organization, or in the field, who had an interest in management. These potential managers were given the opportunity to acquire the “generalist” skills a manager needed.

When I later worked on secondment at Statistics Canada, the head of the research division was a statistician, Dr. Ivan Fellegi. He asked good, tough and fair questions when I proposed a new program and he could do this because he knew the business of his organization. He went on to lead Statistics Canada for some 23 years. Why was Statistics Canada run so well for so many years? The people who ran it knew their business.

So what has happened? Some years ago, General Electric was espousing a new management paradigm built on the premise that “a good manager can manage anything.” That, however, only worked for as long as there were managers in the system who understood their business too.

The GE concept was adopted in the public service – the Career Assignment Program was one of the first manifestations – and potential managers were placed in a variety of assignments over time to learn how to be “executives.” Certainly, a manager who is an expert in finance can manage a finance activity in any number of departments; the same might be said about other generic activities that are similar across departments. However, the concept falls down where fine nuances of technology or other areas must be understood. Here, knowledge-based leadership is required.

In industry, the concept of the generalist manager has been widely debunked, including within GE, as recently documented in Bloomberg Business. Over a 16-year period, GE was the worst performer in the Dow Jones industrial average. Since November 2016, the Dow has risen 41 per cent and GE has lost 46 per cent of its value. So much for the GE concept that “a good manager can manage anything.”

Quite simply, a good manager cannot manage anything. How can someone who does not understand the core principles of IT be expected to run an IT shop? A leader must have at least some inkling of what is important: What you don’t know can hurt you.

Then there is the churning of staff at the executive level. Few directors general or assistant deputy ministers are around when the results of their latest management “improvements” come home to roost.

Finally, there is the apparent desire of most directors to become a director general, and directors general wanting to become assistant deputy ministers. The result is that we have a very knowledgeable work force often poorly managed, and led by people whose knowledge is often inadequate and at worst dangerous.

Those at the senior levels who have benefited from this obviously faulty management paradigm have little incentive to change it. The result is a focus on process and short-term results, lack of leadership and poorer management than the people of Canada are paying for ­­– or than the thousands of competent and caring public servants deserve. The Phoenix fiasco is simply the most visible result.

Bob Ryerson holds a PhD from the University of Waterloo. He was an award-winning scientist and later Director General at the Canada Centre for Remote Sensing. He has served as President and Vice-President of several companies.

See article here:

https://lfpress.com/opinion/columnists/ryerson-fixing-phoenix-means-fixing-management-too/wcm/7dd8a173-d755-4250-b188-753cffc321cb

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #207 on: November 17, 2018, 12:57:05 »
Hmm... an internal job posting for the public service has gone up, looking for an ADM at PSPC.


Among the qualifications that are desirable:

EXPERIENCE:

AE1: Experience in administering pay.

AE2: Recent(1) experience in leading large-scale renewal and change management initiatives in a large complex organization.

AE3: Experience in managing transformation and/or delivery of IT-enabled projects.

AE4: Experience in managing horizontal issues of a sensitive nature requiring a high degree of coordination and collaboration.

AE5: Significant(2) experience in consulting, negotiating, collaborating and working on horizontal issues with central agencies and other federal departments or agencies.

Definitions:
(1) Recent is defined as experience normally acquired within the last five (5) years.
(2) Significant experience is understood to mean the depth and breadth of the experience normally associated with having performed a broad range of various, complex related activities at the executive level over a period of two (2) years.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #208 on: November 17, 2018, 16:03:46 »
That job posting is pretty much wrote for you!

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #209 on: November 18, 2018, 23:23:13 »
Hmm... an internal job posting for the public service has gone up, looking for an ADM at PSPC.


Among the qualifications that are desirable:

EXPERIENCE:

AE1: Experience in administering pay.

AE2: Recent(1) experience in leading large-scale renewal and change management initiatives in a large complex organization.

AE3: Experience in managing transformation and/or delivery of IT-enabled projects.

AE4: Experience in managing horizontal issues of a sensitive nature requiring a high degree of coordination and collaboration.

AE5: Significant(2) experience in consulting, negotiating, collaborating and working on horizontal issues with central agencies and other federal departments or agencies.

Definitions:
(1) Recent is defined as experience normally acquired within the last five (5) years.
(2) Significant experience is understood to mean the depth and breadth of the experience normally associated with having performed a broad range of various, complex related activities at the executive level over a period of two (2) years.

How about being a 'victim' of all those things, does that count? :)
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #211 on: January 02, 2019, 12:34:44 »
Almost 3 years later and still no resolution in sight...

Offline FJAG

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #212 on: January 02, 2019, 13:13:42 »
I spent three years of my life working on a major information management system for JAG which involved working hand in hand with IM Group where the wheels ground slowly and deliberately.

Considering how simple our system was compared to what SSS (or whatever they are called these days) is trying to accomplish with numerous departments and systems, I'm not the least bit surprised that this thing went off the rails and is taking this long to fix.

Quite frankly I'm amazed that any of you are getting paid at all.

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #213 on: February 25, 2019, 11:59:46 »
Clearing Phoenix pay backlog could take up to 5 years
System's 'overall stability' is predicted to be at least 10 years away
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #214 on: February 25, 2019, 12:12:55 »
Problems are sufficiently normalized now that a senior executive was heard to say "Well, being owed $10,000 isn't that much".

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #215 on: February 25, 2019, 12:21:45 »
Problems are sufficiently normalized now that a senior executive was heard to say "Well, being owed $10,000 isn't that much".

It would be fun to publish a comparison of the Prime Minister's pay statement with that of a 'junior bugler' who is currently being shafted by Phoenix....

Just sayin'  :whistle:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #216 on: February 25, 2019, 12:32:51 »
Problems are sufficiently normalized now that a senior executive was heard to say "Well, being owed $10,000 isn't that much".

Excellent, then he won't mind contributing that amount from his pay to make up the difference.....

Online Remius

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #217 on: February 25, 2019, 12:34:17 »
It would be fun to publish a comparison of the Prime Minister's pay statement with that of a 'junior bugler' who is currently being shafted by Phoenix....

Just sayin'  :whistle:

Someone should be in jail over this.
Optio

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #218 on: February 25, 2019, 12:48:12 »
Well, someone got an award instead of jail time.  Flashback to five years ago, when this was a success...

https://o.canada.com/uncategorized/public-servant-gets-top-award-for-overhaul-of-pay-pension-systems
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Online Good2Golf

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #219 on: February 25, 2019, 13:32:19 »
Well, someone got an award instead of jail time.  Flashback to five years ago, when this was a success...

https://o.canada.com/uncategorized/public-servant-gets-top-award-for-overhaul-of-pay-pension-systems

I wonder if the...
Quote
When up and running, it is expected to save $80 million a year.
...includes the $1000-1500 million ‘reset’ tomget it to work properly? ::)

Online Remius

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #220 on: February 25, 2019, 15:02:36 »
Well, someone got an award instead of jail time.  Flashback to five years ago, when this was a success...

https://o.canada.com/uncategorized/public-servant-gets-top-award-for-overhaul-of-pay-pension-systems

Thanks dataperson...belly full of hate now.

This line from that though made me chuckle sardonically.

“This kind of work almost never makes it to the headlines but it sure has made it to the bottom line,” said Harper.
Optio

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #221 on: February 25, 2019, 16:49:54 »
Thanks dataperson...belly full of hate now.

This line from that though made me chuckle sardonically.

“This kind of work almost never makes it to the headlines but it sure has made it to the bottom line,” said Harper.

Six phases of a big project

The six phases of a big project is a cynical take on the outcome of large projects, with an unspoken assumption about their seemingly inherent tendency towards chaos. The list is reprinted in slightly different variations in any number of project management books as a cautionary tale. One such example gives the phases as:

1.Enthusiasm,
2.Disillusionment,
3.Panic and hysteria,
4.Hunt for the guilty,
5.Punishment of the innocent, and
6.Reward for the uninvolved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_phases_of_a_big_project
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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #222 on: March 05, 2019, 07:29:52 »
Public servant gets tax agency to back down over Phoenix errors in income assessment
The accident-prone payroll system is leaving mistakes on thousands of T4s
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Offline garb811

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #223 on: April 02, 2019, 11:13:23 »
Guess not everyone is waiting for the new super solution...

Senate set to ditch Phoenix in January
Quote
While the federal government is pumping another half-billion dollars into trying to right the Phoenix payroll-system ship, the Senate will be in its own life raft by next year.

On March 21, the Senate’s Internal Economy, Budgets, and Administration Committee, which handles legal and financial affairs for the Upper Chamber, approved a Jan. 1, 2020 launch date for its new payroll system, provided by ADP Canada.

The Toronto-based company was selected last spring to provide the Senate’s new pay system, winning a five-year $902,250 contract.
...

More from The Hill Times at link.

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #224 on: April 02, 2019, 19:10:40 »
I was told today, in writing, that I will be receiving my missing acting superintendent's pay from almost three years on May 1st.  So, if I disappear from Army.ca in May it's because the fix failed and the hydro and internet ain't getting paid no more.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.