Author Topic: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible  (Read 79681 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2017, 20:13:16 »
Yes, but then the inevitable questions about "How can you be 47 years old with 35 years of pensionable service" begin, and I'm off down that rabbit hole again.
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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2017, 20:31:54 »
You're one of Romeo Dallaire's favourite ex-child soldiers and he's taking a special interest in your case?

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #127 on: November 17, 2017, 10:18:34 »
Not amused at the political finger pointing. The CPC started this ball rolling and the Liberals picked it up and ran with it, knowing it was a stinking pile of crap. They should be doing a joint "we are sorry" rather than than blaming each other.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #128 on: November 17, 2017, 10:37:05 »
You're one of Romeo Dallaire's favourite ex-child soldiers and he's taking a special interest in your case?

Not quite... simultaneous CFSA Part I and PSSA service means that for one eight year stretch each calendar year counted as two years of pensionable service.  No one in Pensions or Pay knows quite what to do with me.


I did have a nice chat with CRA today.  "Don't worry about it.  Just wait for the employer to sort things out.  Don't try to get ahead of them, since if they don't update your records before you re-file your taxes, someone in audit might flag the discrepancy and you'll have to explain in detail why you're trying to pay more tax."

They are still awaiting direction on how to handle late payment fees and penalties; they know that they will be waived, but don't know if the waiver request will be done by PSPC for all affected people, or if each person will have to request an individual waiver.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2017, 11:17:26 »
Handy that all CRA employees are in the same boat too, huh?

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2017, 11:24:44 »
Except separate agencies like Elections and CRA kept their own compensation staff (who use Phoenix).  So they aren't triaged in New Brunswick by inexperienced staff who have little grounding in compensation.  And they can actually speak to a real person and not go through PAR forms, a help desk that can only send an email on your behalf, or any of the other frustrations that those served by the New and Improved Pay Transformation Initiative enjoy.
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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2017, 12:10:06 »
PSPC reports annually on their performance - you can see the page about Pay & Pensions at: https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/sc-cs/nsnnnr-ossr/rapports-reports/page-4-eng.html

So, let's see how they're doing...
  • Upon receipt of completed documentation from clients, the Public service Pay centre will resolve complex inquiries within 20 business days – Deleted
  • Public Service and Procurement Canada (PSPC) cost per account to administer pay systems and associated processes for all Government of Canada employees (back office) – Deleted
  • PSPC cost per account to deliver Pay centre services – Deleted
That's right - all the indicators that might show how badly things are going in terms of quality and cost have been Deleted from their scorecard. 

How's that ministerial commitment to transparency and openness going?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:12:56 by dapaterson »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #132 on: November 20, 2017, 23:58:14 »
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2017, 10:54:52 »
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201711_01_e_42666.html

My favourite:

We found that Public Services and Procurement Canada was not tracking errors in pay and did not know how many outstanding pay requests were pay errors that needed to be corrected. The Department told us that the causes and sources of errors are so varied, it is unreasonable to expect it to track and measure them.
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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2017, 11:21:36 »
When are the EX level pubic servants going to start being held accountable? There should be a house cleaning of everyone at the top who touched this file and f'd it off.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2017, 11:52:51 »
LOL an EX getting disciplined or held accountable for a project they managed? Surely you jest, that might lead to an precedent of accountability.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2017, 21:05:03 »
I've come up with a solution to the Phoenix fiasco.  I call it "The Montreal Solution":

1.  Stop paying the public service completely.

2.  Permit them to extract as much graft and bribery as the market will bear instead.

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #137 on: November 23, 2017, 07:06:42 »

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #138 on: November 27, 2017, 09:19:05 »
So, according to this morning's pay stub, I am no longer being paid a rate of pay that doesn't exist that's less than my proper rate of pay.

Now, I am being paid a rate of pay that doesn't exist that's more than my proper rate of pay.
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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #139 on: November 27, 2017, 10:55:42 »
If Phoenix was designed to ensure everyone was paid in the same manner, then it is truly failing because the last report said only 50% of the people in the Public Service have had pay issues. Surely it should screw up everyone's pay at least once.

Just a few reminders - http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/federal-government-rolls-out-new-pay-system

Its original goal was, "... save millions in overpayments to Canada’s public servants and speed up processing that has caused pay glitches and delays", say officials at Public Services and Procurement.

"Phoenix is also the last of the two-stage “pay transformation” that the previous Conservative government initiated in 2009 when it decided to put the pay centre in Miramichi, N.B., as a trade-off for jobs lost when it closed the long-gun registry."

"Despite the delays, she said the project won’t exceed its $300 million budget. It is expected to save $70 million a year beginning this year."

The reality: http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/outstanding-transactions-at-phoenix-pay-centre-surpass-500-000-says-minister-1.3681382 "The government has so far earmarked $400 million to fix the system and to deal with the existing pay backlog, partly by hiring more pay administrators at centres in Quebec and New Brunswick. But Qualtrough said in an interview aired last weekend that she could not guarantee the amount wouldn't reach $1 billion."

Just Wow!

« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 10:59:56 by Simian Turner »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #140 on: November 27, 2017, 12:27:49 »
My department has not submitted any acting pay requests in a year, as they are afraid that it will stop peoples pay or start paying them incorrectly. They are recording it manually in order to pay people once things are fixed. So those acting assignment requests won't show up anywhere but are still Phoenix related problems, that's a department of 5,800 people, and it's likely we are not the only ones withholding pay adjustment requests. 

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #141 on: December 12, 2017, 11:46:18 »
So here's an interesting wrinkle.  A Canadian HR/Payroll specialist has a blog; in 2013 he wrote about reporting overpayments on T4s.

Money quote:

Employers have to treat outstanding employee debt, resulting from an overpayment made in error, as a low-interest loan. As with any other no or low-interest loan, employers must report a taxable benefit, calculated on prescribed interest rates.

https://alanrmcewen.com/2013/12/18/t4-reporting-for-overpayments/


EDIT: CRA link: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/t4130/employers-guide-taxable-benefits-allowances.html#P887_111004

A loan can include any other indebtedness such as the unpaid purchase price of goods or services, or an overpayment of salary that your employee repays you over a period of time.

The taxable benefit the employee receives in the tax year is the total of the following amounts:
a.the interest on each loan and debt calculated at the prescribed rate for the periods in the year during which it was outstanding
b.the interest on the loan or debt that was paid or payable for the year by you, the employer (for this purpose, an employer is a person or partnership that employed or intended to employ the individual and also includes a person related to the person or partnership)
c.minus the total of the following amounts:
 the interest for the year that any person or partnership paid on each loan or debt no later than 30 days after the end of the year
d.any part of the amount in b) that the employee pays back to the employer no later than 30 days after the end of the year
Note
 Sometimes these rules do not apply. For more information, see Exceptions.

If the employee receives a loan or incurs a debt because of employment, report the benefit in box 14, "Employment income," and in the "Other information" area, report the interest benefit under code 36. Report any forgiven loan principal amounts under code 40.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 11:50:47 by dapaterson »
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #142 on: December 12, 2017, 12:07:30 »
Wait wait wait.

So, if my employer accidentally over-pays me, I owe the government money because I received a taxable benefit in the form of an unwanted, unsolicited, mistakenly awarded, "no or low-interest" loan?

I have more to this if the answer is yes.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #143 on: December 12, 2017, 12:11:01 »
Wait wait wait.

So, if my employer accidentally over-pays me, I owe the government money because I received a taxable benefit in the form of an unwanted, unsolicited, mistakenly awarded, "no or low-interest" loan?

I have more to this if the answer is yes.

That is what the rules appear to say.  However, I am not a tax lawyer.  But the confusion being generated by Phoenix continues to grow...
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2017, 12:53:50 »
Keel hauling, Yardarm, just saying......

quote; "“Currently 76 per cent of our employees have outstanding cases and 100 per cent of seagoing employees are affected,” wrote Deputy Fisheries Minister Catherine Blewett. The Coast Guard is an agency within the Fisheries portfolio."

https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/11/wernick-combing-public-service-ideas-fixing-phoenix/


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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #145 on: December 12, 2017, 13:04:11 »
Keel hauling, Yardarm, just saying......

quote; "“Currently 76 per cent of our employees have outstanding cases and 100 per cent of seagoing employees are affected,” wrote Deputy Fisheries Minister Catherine Blewett. The Coast Guard is an agency within the Fisheries portfolio."

https://ipolitics.ca/2017/12/11/wernick-combing-public-service-ideas-fixing-phoenix/

Wow!  100%!  I'm certain someone is going to find a way to spin that into an impressive performance metric to get more bonus pay.
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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #146 on: December 12, 2017, 13:53:17 »
Recent chats with employees who have contacted their union stewards and several levels above them, they were told there is no recourse that the unions foresee being taken at this time - no work stoppages, work-to-rule, strikes.  There has been and will be occasional letter writing campaigns and protests.  Much like the PARs and complaints in regards to pay issues, they will go unnoticed because the government does not care about its public servants any more than they do about the uniformed members.

I wish the news/response was in the words of Russell Peters father, "somebody gonna get hurt real bad"! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3EjFgWlW2w

Instead it sound more like Rascal Flatts - Let it Hurt lyrics:

"Seven forty two in the morning
Eight seconds before it all sinks in
Put your best face on for the world
Fake another smile and just pretend
But you're just puttin' off the pain
Nothing's ever really gonna change"

The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline Lumber

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #147 on: December 12, 2017, 14:25:37 »
That is what the rules appear to say.  However, I am not a tax lawyer.  But the confusion being generated by Phoenix continues to grow...

So, if it's a taxable benefit, let look at it this way.

Government over pays me $2000 at 0% interest.
The CRA assume that that is a taxable benefit. Had I taken a loan from the bank, I'd pay, lets say, 5%.
Amortize that over the year, compounded monthly, and the total interest owed would be $102.32.
So, the CRA is saying I received a "taxable benefit akin to $102.32 ".
Using the Federal and Provincial tax rates for my income level, that works out to about $38.02 that I would owe the government in taxes.

Ok, so I take the $2000 and invest in in a GIC at 2% and walk away with $2,040.37, earning a net of $2.35. Yay for me.
But GICs are locked it. What if they claw the $2000 back before it reaches annuity?
Ok, so invest in a Mutual Fund instead. Same amount of work, potentially higher rate of return. Oh wait, you picked the wrong one and you actually just lost money.

I can't believe they would expect the average joe to go through all this over a few dollars taxes.

Even if they accidentally doubled my salary, it works out to roughly $2000 in taxes.

Hurrah for the small guy.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #148 on: January 03, 2018, 13:57:47 »
Deputy minister letters on what they are doing to deal with Phoenix are now posted  to the PSPC website at:

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/centre-presse-media-centre/lettres-dm-dm-letters/index-eng.html
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Phoenix Pay System - crap's Horrible
« Reply #149 on: January 04, 2018, 09:26:15 »
Deputy minister letters on what they are doing to deal with Phoenix are now posted  to the PSPC website at:

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/remuneration-compensation/services-paye-pay-services/centre-presse-media-centre/lettres-dm-dm-letters/index-eng.html

Interesting that PSPC DM Lemay takes a dive on the most critical of her Department's 3-pillars, Administration of Govt Pay - i.e. Phoenix itself

DM PSPC's letter to the Clerk of the Privy Council
Quote
Dear Mr. Wernick:

In response to your letter which we received on November 2, 2017, I am pleased to provide you with Public Services and Procurement Canada’s (PSPC) current and upcoming efforts toward HR-to-Pay stabilization.

PSPC is uniquely positioned as being both the administrator of Government Pay as well as a client. As a result, our departmental focus is best depicted in the three pillars identified below:
•Administrator of Government Pay
•PSPC as a Client
•Internal Services to Support the Administration of Government Pay

The report enclosed herein focuses on the two last pillars and outlines the efforts and the corresponding impact that PSPC has contributed towards HR to Pay Stabilization from both the perspectives of a client department and as an internal service provider supporting Pay Administration...

So essentially they've provided the following in the DM's letter:

REPORT: PSPC efforts to support HR to pay stabilization
Quote
This infographic depicts the 3 pillars of PSPC’s work.

Pillar 1: Administrator of Government pay

This work includes:
•HR to Pay
•Pay Centre
•Phoenix
•Project Management Office

Pillar 2: PSPC as a client

This work includes:
•supporting our employees
•partnerships
•communications and training

Pillar 3: PSPC internal services to support the administration of Government pay

This work includes:
•Human Resources
•Finance
•Communications
•Accommodations



Not sure how that seems professional or acceptable?

Regards
G2G