Author Topic: Getting back in after 3b Release?  (Read 21365 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2019, 22:02:59 »
Thanks, Ill have a chat with recruiting.

You are welcome. Good luck. :)

Offline NavyOAS

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RE-ENROLLMENT AFTER 3b - CDS Now must authorize?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2020, 11:10:17 »
Good day,

This is my very first post on this forum so I hope I'm doing this right.

Long story short, I was released 2 years ago (3b) because of supposed nuts allergies. Now I can prove that it was the results of OAS (Oral Allergies Syndrom) and it's cured by immunotherapy. I now have in hand a letter from the allergist saying that I do not represent a risk and can now reintroduce nuts.

I went and reapply and I have been told that now it's the CDS himself that review each case of 3b trying to reapply. But he did not seem convinced of that in a sense that it sounded like a new way of doing things.

Anybody have experienced that? And if so, what does that mean in terms of delay? Should I be more worried that it's now CDS and not the RMO?

Thanks so much!

L

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2020, 13:05:37 »
. . .  And if so, what does that mean in terms of delay? Should I be more worried that it's now CDS and not the RMO?

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment
Quote
Former Service in the CAF, Other Military Force or RCMP

3.13  In accordance with QR&O article 6.02, Action Prior to Enrolment of Persons with Former Service, an applicant with former service in the CAF, any other military force or the RCMP is required to:

a.  state the particulars of that service;
b.  state the cause of their release; and
c.  produce their release papers.

3.14  In accordance with QR&O paragraphs 6.01(2) and (4), unless special authority is personally obtained from the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS), an applicant with former service shall not be enrolled if released:

a.  as medically unfit;

b.  for inefficiency;
c.  with a conduct assessment below "good" or equivalent, other than a conduct assessment below "good" or equivalent that was based upon conviction for which a pardon has been granted under the Criminal Records Act; or
d.  for misconduct.

3.15  For applicants with former CAF service, the above includes any release from the CAF under Item 1 (misconduct), 2 (unsatisfactory service), 3(a) (medically unfit for further service), 5(d) (not advantageously employable) or 5(f) (unsuitable for further service) of the Table to QR&O article 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Member. For applicants with former service in any other military force or the RCMP, the above includes any reason analogous to one of these Items.

Note – All previous CDS orders, instructions and authorizations that provided authority for officers subordinate to the CDS to authorize the enrolment of applicants with former service have been revoked.

What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.
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Offline NavyOAS

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2020, 10:11:51 »
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment
What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.

Thank you for your answer!

I suppose that I kind of knew that, but wanted to hear a "second opinion". I wonder why they would go through such a lengthy process. I can provide hard evidence. As far as I'm concern, the CDS is not a doctor. So like you said, he will likely request opinions from subordinate... And at the end of the day, it's the RMO at my recruiting office that will influence the CDS decision...

Oh well, sometime I wonder why I try so hard to go back after being 3b released. Guess I miss it that much.

L

Offline NavyOAS

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2020, 10:30:44 »
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/defence-administrative-orders-directives/5000-series/5002/5002-1-enrolment.html
DAOD 5002-1, Enrolment
What it means is that your processing for enrolling will have to include requesting authority from the CDS.  That may occur early in the process or after all the usual steps are completed (there is probably a protocol for it within the CFRG).  It would be so highly unlikely as to be non-existent that the CDS would make a determination on a medical situation without advice/recommendation from medical authorities.  The development of that advice would start with the RMO, though it would be unlikely that he would not seek opinion from consultants more knowledgeable in the specialty so that any recommendation that went to the CDS would appear thoroughly researched.  This will add a lot of time to your re-enrollment for the simple reasons that it is outside the norm, not done often enough that there are the specialists immediately available to perform the evaluation and also because the CDS has a busy enough schedule that the review of such a request will likely not be a priority to squeeze into his calendar.  Expect a long, long delay.

I should have sent only one message but I only noticed something after I sent the previous message.

So I went and read the DAOD 5002-01, and I actually wonder if it applies to 3b release and not just to 3a. Here is why:

3.15 For applicants with former CAF service, the above includes any release from the CAF under Item 1 (misconduct), 2 (unsatisfactory service), 3(a) (medically unfit for further service), 5(d) (not advantageously employable) or 5(f) (unsuitable for further service) of the Table to QR&O article 15.01, Release of Officers and Non-Commissioned Member. For applicants with former service in any other military force or the RCMP, the above includes any reason analogous to one of these Items.

My point is, unless I misunderstood the sense of the DAOD and the QR&O article 15.01... The CDS approval is only required for 3a released member, and it kinda leaves 3b released member in "limbo" in a sense that it doesn't specifically mention anything. The QR&O article 15.01 says exactly that:

3   Medical   a)On medical grounds, being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service.
                        b)On medical grounds, being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, and not otherwise advantageously
                           employable under existing service policy.
 

Furthermore, reading the regulations, eventually it leads here : QR&O: Volume I - Chapter 6 Enrolment and Re-Engagement.

This QR&O says exactly this :
unless special authority is obtained from the Chief of the Defence Staff, a person who has been released from the Canadian Forces, from any other of Her Majesty's forces, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or from any foreign force
as medically unfit for further service,
for inefficiency, or
with a conduct assessment below "good" or the equivalent, other than a conduct assessment below "good" or the equivalent that was based on a conviction in respect of which a clemency measure is in effect.


still in the same QR&O...

6.23 - CONDITIONS OF RE-ENGAGEMENT
(1) Subject to any limitations prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff, a commanding officer may authorize the re-engagement of a non-commissioned member who is medically fit in accordance with the standards prescribed by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

(2) No non-commissioned member who is not medically fit shall be re-engaged unless his re-engagement is specially authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff.


So again, the wording suggest that a 3b released member does not fall under the specific category they are mentionning.

I know that you'll probably say that I should contact my recruiting RMO because this is just a "forum"... But I would love to have opinions on that!

I badly want my old life back. Maybe I'm pushing too much.

Thanks again,

L
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 10:40:42 by NavyOAS »

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2020, 11:50:43 »
... And at the end of the day, it's the RMO at my recruiting office that will influence the CDS decision...


There is "no" RMO at your recruiting office.  "The" RMO is not the individual who examined you during the recruiting medical.  The RMO is the physician in Ottawa who reviews all the medicals to confirm that the appropriate med category has been assigned to an applicant.  He likely is a Major, probably in his first or second posting at that rank level so is likely between four to eight years since he finished his family practice residency. (If I'm off on that profile, someone who is more currently familiar with the RMO will surely correct me.) But he is not strictly a paper pusher.  He is in that position so that he can use his medical education and clinical experience in applying the current regulations and instructions pertaining to enrollment medical standards.  In most cases, recruit medicals are simple and straightforward.  In those instances when an anomaly arises, he will request the applicant to provide additional information from a clinician who has knowledge of the applicant's condition.  Sometimes (maybe most often?) that civilian clinician will provide an adequate response that answers all the questions (both directly asked and potentially arising from the response) and it satisfies the RMO.  In far too may cases, however, the civvy doctor's response is inadequate (e.g. Little Johnny, despite his hx of . . .  is very fit and will be able to be a soldier).  That example is of the extreme (and sarcastic) but sometimes it is necessary to seek additional, specialized input as to the validity of the civilian doctor's opinion.  In those cases, the RMO will refer the file to military (and contracted civilian) medical specialists who can make an informed evaluation.



Quote
. . .  I can provide hard evidence. . . .

No, what you can provide is an "opinion".  It may be a well formed, medical opinion from a highly qualified clinician based on a "documented" history of your condition, the tests performed, the diagnosis reached, the treatment prescribed, the response to that treatment and the likely long term prognosis, but what he is providing is an opinion.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 12:04:20 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline NavyOAS

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2020, 13:42:23 »
In most cases, recruit medicals are simple and straightforward.  In those instances when an anomaly arises, he will request the applicant to provide additional information from a clinician who has knowledge of the applicant's condition.  Sometimes (maybe most often?) that civilian clinician will provide an adequate response that answers all the questions (both directly asked and potentially arising from the response) and it satisfies the RMO.  In far too may cases, however, the civvy doctor's response is inadequate (e.g. Little Johnny, despite his hx of . . .  is very fit and will be able to be a soldier).  That example is of the extreme (and sarcastic) but sometimes it is necessary to seek additional, specialized input as to the validity of the civilian doctor's opinion.  In those cases, the RMO will refer the file to military (and contracted civilian) medical specialists who can make an informed evaluation.

I understand what you are saying. In this mindset, I guess i'm lucky that my allergist is also the one contracted by the base here for the Montreal area. Furthermore, the recruiting office gave me the form with those questions you mentioned to be filled by my specialist (in this case, my allergist who is also the one referred by the base)

No, what you can provide is an "opinion".  It may be a well formed, medical opinion from a highly qualified clinician based on a "documented" history of your condition, the tests performed, the diagnosis reached, the treatment prescribed, the response to that treatment and the likely long term prognosis, but what he is providing is an opinion.

You are 1000% right. At the end of the day, the decision is not based off of the professional opinion my allergist gave. It's based on the RMO/CDS decision, based off of the information at hand.

Anyways, guess all I can do is wait. Already waited 2 years since my release, what's another year.

Offline NavyOAS

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Re: Getting back in after 3b Release?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2020, 10:25:14 »
UPDATE.

Apparently this did not event went to the CDS. I received an email this morning (3 days after my initial medical exam)... The email contain an attachment called ''Generic Unfit''.

The letter says that I represent a risk and that it is the RMO decision to decline my request to join the forces.

I suppose now I have to look into how to appeal, because the specialist clearly says that I do not represent a risk.

Honestly feel like some bored ****t was pissed to be posted there or just to be there that day and didnt even looked at my file.

Imagine naming the letter you send to your potential candidate ''Generic_Unfit_V2''...

Someone please remind me why I want to go back so bad.