Author Topic: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD  (Read 90916 times)

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Offline Willy00005

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PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« on: April 09, 2012, 15:23:39 »
I live in Moncton NB and I have a 2 month tasking in Borden at CFSEME as a driver. What I'm trying to find out is if there are specific rules for taking a POMV instead of flying. the reason for this is Toronto and Trenton are near by where I have friends as well as having Grandparents in Sudbury. I was looking to take a vehicle up so I could visit. the only problem is the Mcpl who gave me the tasking thinks that there are new rules in place about POMV travel but he hasn't been able to get a concrete answer back yet. Any help is appreciated.

Note the drive isn't what I'm worried about because I'd leave a few days early to travel and visit and I know and understand it is approximately 2000 km
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MikeL

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 15:27:36 »
Have you talked to the clerks in your unit?  Or a POC at CFSEME to see if they will authorize POMV?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 15:35:55 by -Skeletor- »

aesop081

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 15:30:13 »
Based on what i have seen from several units in the recent past, they will require you to take 4 days of leave to get there and 4 days of leave to get back (2000km / 500km days). That is, of course, if POMV travel is authorized.

Not being at work, i can't even begin to locate the relevant orders.

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 15:32:29 »
there not 100% either the Mcpl is following the direction to email Cfseme clerks and waiting. I'm just curious because I'm looking at upgrading to a newer vehicle and want to know if I should do it before or after summer. CDN Aviator thank you that alone is helpful. id probably do it in two just because I'm comfortable that way and spend the other 2 visiting
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aesop081

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 15:36:22 »
Remember, i said "If approved". Meaning that the decision on MOT is not entirely up to you.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 15:44:33 »
Read the CFTDI; it has all the information you require.
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 15:53:11 »
Its called Cost Comparision or something like that.  The gist of it is:

- if approved, (1) the Clks will find out how much it would cost to fly you up there, including taxi/shuttle from home/airport and airport/location.  That is the maximum you can 'get' for travel to place of duty and RTU.  (2) They will compare that to how much it would cost for you to take POWV (meals, 500Km/day travel, TDA for X days, kilometric rate, etc).  Its highly likely that the cost to drive will exceed the cost to fly you up.

- if you are approved and decided to go POMV, you will then have no more than the $ in the cost comparision "cheapest method" which should be (1) above.  If they can fly you up, pay for a lunch and taxi/shuttles for $450, that the max you can get for taking your POMV.

- for every 500km of travel, you will require 1 day of paid leave (includes Wknd, Stat, Ann or Short if you were lucky and got some to travel;  I have seen Short given before for this).  If your Report Day was a Sunday, you'd likely have to use 2 Ann Days, with Sat and Sun being Wknd.  You can travel 500km on your Report Day, provided your timing is the usual "1400/1600 hrs" which seems to be the norm.  If your trip is 1845km one way, or 1545km one way, that still will require 4 days paid Lve. 

Using the example of $450 max from the cost comparison, you will have $450 to pay for the trip there AND back.  That includes food, fuel, hotels, etc.  IIRC you sign a waiver stating you know all this and accept that you will take the hit for anything above/beyond the $450.

As you are probably talking about a CL B callout, you may find that CFSEME will not extend your contract to cover the travel (likely 6 more days of pay than if you flew) and your unit might not want to pay CL A days as well.  If you are on a CL B that is greater than 60 days, you may have to use the Ann Lve you'd recieve for travel, if they would even approve it.   If that was denied, the only other option might be LWOP (Leave Without Pay) and I can't comment on whether or not that is allowable for your situation. 

* the times I've went to Borden or rtn, I've travelled thru the border at Niagra Falls, thru NY State, Mass, the 10 minute drive thru NH  ;) and thru Maine.  Nice drive, alittle shorter and you can get some shopping done in Maine if you feel the need.  The crossing in Holten puts you right at Woodstock.  There is also Calais/St Stephen, but I like the drive on the I-95 to Holten better myself.  Also, this route *might* put you under the 1500km mark from Moncton - Borden and save you 1 Ann Lve day each way; something worth looking into.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 16:30:22 by Eye In The Sky »

Offline exgunnertdo

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 16:22:45 »
I don't have a lot of specific advice, just to point out that the OP is a reservist, likely on Class A from what I'm gathering from his profile, proceeding on Cl B.

The issue is further muddied by the fact that he can't take leave for the travel, and therefore it is a "liability" thing.  What is the member's status while driving?  Flying is easy, Cl B starts when he leaves his house to go to the airport.  Will someone authorize extra days of Cl B so he can drive (and then take leave)? Not likely.  Can he drive on his own time, unpaid, Cl A status?  Who can authorize that?

It's been a while since I've had to deal with it, but I've never seen a conclusive answer on how reservists are administered for situations like this.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 16:50:05 »
I don't have a lot of specific advice, just to point out that the OP is a reservist, likely on Class A from what I'm gathering from his profile, proceeding on Cl B.

The issue is further muddied by the fact that he can't take leave for the travel, and therefore it is a "liability" thing.  What is the member's status while driving?  Flying is easy, Cl B starts when he leaves his house to go to the airport.  Will someone authorize extra days of Cl B so he can drive (and then take leave)? Not likely.  Can he drive on his own time, unpaid, Cl A status?  Who can authorize that?

It's been a while since I've had to deal with it, but I've never seen a conclusive answer on how reservists are administered for situations like this.

Assuming CFSEME won't extent Cl B dates to cover travel, Home Unit won't pay Cl A days, and LWOP isn't an option, the OP said if POMV approved, he would take 2 days to travel up, and 2 days to visit.  In theory, he could provide the "place he is visiting" as his travel start point to Borden.  Mbr would have to pay their own way to XXX, Ontario (place he was planning on visiting, provided it was within 500Km of Borden).  This is when the question of "how badly do I REALLY want my car on this Cl B" should be asked.

- mbr would state "I will be on XXX, Ontario on *date before CL B begins*.  It would have to be within 500kmm of Borden.
- on RFD/Cl B start date, mbr would then proceed to Borden.
- mbr would only receive kilometric rate for travel on CL B start date, TDA, and meals over actual travel time (not to exceed cost comparison $ amount).

The RTU trip, mbr should have Ann Lve days x 2 for every 30 days of CL B.  Rte Letter could be extended to cover Ann Lve not used*, which would cover off the 3 days travel @ 500km/day rule from Borden - Moncton. 

Its been awhile since I've had to deal with this kind of situation, but basically that is what happened when I ran into this once with a mbr proceeding on CL B to Borden and wanted their POMV (3 month callout). 

*assuming employing unit doesn't have a "Cl B ann leave shall be used before contract end date" policy.  IIRC, most units were getting away from the contract end date extension stuff and requiring all Ann Lve to be used before contract ended.  In this case, mbr would have to go LWOP on the rtn trip or "visit" XXX, Ontario again and pay for return trip out of pocket.

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 17:04:34 »
Thanks exgunner and eye in the sky as well as others. Realizing now how kerfuckity this whole mess could get. I'll be interested to see what the clerks come back with and will make sure to inform you all. Just out of curiosity is anyone else here a Class A guy who's been to CFSEME for a tasking. preferably a driver tasking. any idea what I'll be doing. I'm qualified A1 B1 C51 (soon C52) and T1.
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aesop081

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 17:06:52 »
any idea what I'll be doing.

Driving ?

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 17:09:21 »
  :facepalm:
Sorry I really should be more specific and I deserved that. Anyways I mean more along the lines of like meal driving or transporting officers or is it completely dependant on what needs to be done vs Quals
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 17:13:31 »
  :facepalm:
Sorry I really should be more specific and I deserved that.

Its ok;  you are a *Channel 8*.   We know you guys are..."challenged".   >:D

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 17:29:46 »
8ch joke? definitely missed it if it was
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Offline startbutton

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 17:52:48 »
  :facepalm:
Sorry I really should be more specific and I deserved that. Anyways I mean more along the lines of like meal driving or transporting officers or is it completely dependant on what needs to be done vs Quals
You pretty muched guessed it right, also what ever GD tasks come up.
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Offline Celticgirl

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2012, 18:01:42 »
Remember, i said "If approved". Meaning that the decision on MOT is not entirely up to you.

It is up to the fin code holder.  If authorized POMV, a waiver will be signed by the mbr and a cost comparison will be done by the clerks.  Depending on the reasons for and distance of POMV travel (how many days it will take), it may or may not be approved.  Prepare to be told "no" and please do not gripe at the messengers (i.e. the clerks), who have nothing to do with this decision whatsoever.  8) 

Be aware that when taking your POMV, if you are travelling a long way and need to stop at a hotel for a night, that will be at your own expense (so budget your cost comparison dollars wisely).  Per diem meals will be reimbursed for only what they would have been for air travel (usually one meal in each direction, most often two lunches are given unless this does not match up at all with normal air travel times from Pt A to Pt B).  You are still only getting one travel day in each direction.  Leave will need to be taken to cover the rest and you need to submit a leave pass for this time period...whether this is weekend, annual, short, or some combination (note: short leave needs to be approved by the CO and is NOT meant to be used for travel, but to reward the member for exceptional work or overtime work).  Any days you travel other than the two allotted travel days, you will not receive any meals or incidentals.  These are 'non-claimable' days.

At my unit, the mbrs have to seek out their own auth for POMV and get the TD req form signed before bringing it to us at the OR - the one exception to this being if the fin code is not ours.  If it's another unit's fin code, it will generally say right in the message what is and is not authorized so it is rare that further auth needs to be sought, anyway (exceptional circumstances only).

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Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2012, 19:14:03 »
Roger CelticGirl thank you for clearing that up. so in other words its highly unlikely I will be ok'd to take a pomv without much of the cost falling on me. it's not dire that i take one it was more of a check to see if I could. I thank you all for your help. it is much appreciated. Now I have to find some friends with vehicles from the local area ;D 
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aesop081

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2012, 19:16:34 »
its highly unlikely I will be ok'd to take a pomv without much of the cost falling on me.

You can't expect the Cf to foot the additional bill, just because you want to take your car.

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2012, 19:22:09 »
I didn't expect it to be ok'd it was more of a luxury which would have been nice.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2012, 19:30:36 »
You've been given all the info and about every possible option or way.

Now, how bad to you want your car and how well do you get along with your CClk  >:D (is it still PO2 "R"?  If so, he's an ex-Infanteer so maybe he'll feel sorry for you). 


Offline Brasidas

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2012, 19:34:19 »
- for every 500km of travel, you will require 1 day of paid leave (includes Wknd, Stat, Ann or Short if you were lucky and got some to travel;  I have seen Short given before for this).  If your Report Day was a Sunday, you'd likely have to use 2 Ann Days, with Sat and Sun being Wknd.  You can travel 500km on your Report Day, provided your timing is the usual "1400/1600 hrs" which seems to be the norm.  If your trip is 1845km one way, or 1545km one way, that still will require 4 days paid Lve. 

Quote from:
Using the example of $450 max from the cost comparison, you will have $450 to pay for the trip there AND back.  That includes food, fuel, hotels, etc.  IIRC you sign a waiver stating you know all this and accept that you will take the hit for anything above/beyond the $450.

As you are probably talking about a CL B callout, you may find that CFSEME will not extend your contract to cover the travel (likely 6 more days of pay than if you flew) and your unit might not want to pay CL A days as well.  If you are on a CL B that is greater than 60 days, you may have to use the Ann Lve you'd recieve for travel, if they would even approve it.   If that was denied, the only other option might be LWOP (Leave Without Pay) and I can't comment on whether or not that is allowable for your situation. 

* the times I've went to Borden or rtn, I've travelled thru the border at Niagra Falls, thru NY State, Mass, the 10 minute drive thru NH  ;) and thru Maine.  Nice drive, alittle shorter and you can get some shopping done in Maine if you feel the need.  The crossing in Holten puts you right at Woodstock.  There is also Calais/St Stephen, but I like the drive on the I-95 to Holten better myself.  Also, this route *might* put you under the 1500km mark from Moncton - Borden and save you 1 Ann Lve day each way; something worth looking into.

I've never been on contract other than the day prior and the day after the tasking, and I've been on POMV across the country. I get the tasking or course, request POMV, get the cost comparison rigamarole with the amount the CF'll cover, and carry on. No extension of my class B contract, no mention of leave days.

If its a course with no annual that I can take for the duration, it's tacked on after the contract. If its not, my annual gets taken during the contract.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2012, 19:46:12 »
Wasn't there an order on this exact subject that came out just last week?

Can't recall the exact details, I wasn't paying that much attention, will not be going on any taskings in the next few years, but the short of it was, they're not paying for POMV travel for class B taskings any more... if you don't want to fly, you're on your own dime to drive (Meaning they will no longer give you up to the equivilent cost of your ticket), and it still needs to be authorized by the CO.

Why, no idea, didn't cost the CF any extra the old way, but that's it.

Offline Willy00005

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2012, 19:49:49 »
Ahh ok so there is someone else who had heard of some new rules, ok cool. well like I said I promise to update you all
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2012, 19:55:12 »
I might have a written copy of it around somewhere...

I checked, I do not have a written copy... but it was very recent, I heard about it on the 12th... like I said, I wasn't paying that much attention, as it won't affect me for at least a few years, but the short of it they will no longer be providing you with any compensation for POMV travel... though if you want to travel up on your own dime, it still has to be authorized by your CO. As a class A member starting a class B contract, you should still be entitled to your travel day and meal claims on your travel day, but I believe that's it.

Check with your clerks for full details.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 19:59:04 by a Sig Op »

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: PMV and Travel Limits While on TD
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2012, 20:58:38 »
Just curious, was it a CANFORGEN?  LFAAD?  CBI/CFTDI update?

Always like to update my UFI folder in my Favorites at work.