Author Topic: .50 on CF helicopters  (Read 30954 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
.50 on CF helicopters
« on: October 03, 2011, 11:34:14 »
Quote
He also noted the importance of the .50Cal HMG. The TB would not think much of 5.56mm fire. When the C6/7.62mm MG came out, they would concentrate on the gunner's location. When the .50 came out, they would bug off. Evidentally, I am told that they really do not like the .50 IRT its range, stopping power, and sound.

Interestingly, that was also why Aviation went with .50 (M3M/GAU-21, high-rate, ~1200 rd/min) in addition to the wonderful 7.62mm M134D.  Not so much for range beyond GPMG ranges (since it's still crew-served), but for the weight of fire and the type of munitions the .50 can throw down-range.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 11:38:14 »
Interestingly, that was also why Aviation went with .50 (M3M/GAU-21, high-rate, ~1200 rd/min) in addition to the wonderful 7.62mm M134D.  Not so much for range beyond GPMG ranges (since it's still crew-served), but for the weight of fire and the type of munitions the .50 can throw down-range.  :nod:

Regards
G2G

Not to mention the distinctive sound of a large calibre weapon throwing hot lead on to the bad guys.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 18:08:59 »
Not to mention the distinctive sound of a large calibre weapon throwing hot lead on to the bad guys.

Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home

The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!

Regards
G2G

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 18:50:03 »
Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home

The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!

Regards
G2G

One question: Where can we get a bunch of these to trial them?
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 21:28:49 »
Done, and done.   :nod: 

They hit the flight line on Griffons in AFG in late-2010....just didn't have any videos of it in action on our machines.


Regards
G2G

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 21:31:38 »
Can you put in a good word for us Infantry guys.....we could use these babies on the ground.
Done, and done.   :nod: 

They hit the flight line on Griffons in AFG in late-2010....just didn't have any videos of it in action on our machines.


Regards
G2G
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Danjanou

  • Reporting from Goat Rodeo Central
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 92,729
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,377
  • Butt Party NCO on the 81mm Mortar Range
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 21:41:24 »
Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home

The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!

Regards
G2G

It appears there are a couple all worth a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2SIbXksH_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I99_fXwGPQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKKJZ2yGrE


BTWare we getting close to thread split here, with the GAU-21 and the DM trading their own threads?
NASA spent $12 Million designing a pen that could write in the zero gravity environment of space. The Russians went with pencils.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 22:14:14 »
...and found the goods on a Griffon in AFG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nDnAerah0

« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 22:29:36 by Good2Golf »

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 22:17:25 »
...and found on of the goods on a Griffon in AFG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nDnAerah0

Wow......wow....
do we have a "Sgt Major drooling" smiley?
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 22:19:06 »
Wow......wow....
do we have a "Sgt Major drooling" smiley?

How about we put a hat on this guy?  :cam:

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 22:19:56 »
How about we put a hat on this guy?  :cam:

That's good!!!
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Ex-Dragoon

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 46,372
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,997
  • dealing with life not that active here anymore
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2011, 10:17:58 »
Those would be really nice on the bridge wings of a CPF. :D
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
Tradition- Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid
Former RCN Sailor now Retired

Offline PJGary

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,220
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 94
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2011, 21:41:49 »
Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related
Cù-Chaorach

The 3 rules of the army:

Rule #1: Always look cool.
Rule #2: Always know what you're doing.
Rule #3: If you don't know what you're doing...always look cool.

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2011, 21:46:30 »
Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related

Yes, I've physically seen it fired at GDLS' Ethan Allen ranges in Vermont.  Impressive.  At low-rate (1000), it's actually not as fast as the GAU-21/A, but at high rate (2000) it sounds like an A-10.  Pretty awesome weapon for a crew served system.

Regards
G2G

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2011, 21:49:24 »
Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related

Ummmmmm....uh......Can I have a dozen please? ;D
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Spectrum

  • I'm from the government; I'm here to help you
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 49,035
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,258
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2011, 18:07:14 »
I just want to be a door gunner...

I don't care about promotions, spec pay, LDA, PLD...I just want to be a door gunner!!!

 :bowdown: :pullhair:

Offline PJGary

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,220
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 94
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2011, 18:49:32 »
I just want to be a door gunner...

I don't care about promotions, spec pay, LDA, PLD...I just want to be a door gunner!!!

 :bowdown: :pullhair:

A while back I had the privilege of sitting in the gunner's seat for a couple hours worth of flight time. Ever since then I have convinced myself that I found my new purpose in life  ;) It also doesn't help that being a door gunner has that deadly illusion that "No really, it could really happen!" as it seems like it's a right place right time kind of gig... I'd do it for free!   ;D
Cù-Chaorach

The 3 rules of the army:

Rule #1: Always look cool.
Rule #2: Always know what you're doing.
Rule #3: If you don't know what you're doing...always look cool.

Offline Ditch

  • Established 1998
  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 26,362
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,341
  • I routinely step in it, but like conflict...
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2011, 20:29:09 »
Anyone know if this specialist position is an actual MOSID or are they just temporarily filling the positions when needed?  If it becomes a line position at a RCAF unit, I imagine the trade will become blue vice green.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline Varius

  • Ah yes, poor infantry; Mere beggars...
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,280
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 68
  • Fight or flight? Yeah, right!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2011, 20:39:05 »
Can you put in a good word for us Infantry guys.....we could use these babies on the ground.


Ugh... Can you carry it then? I don't really want to go bush-bashing with that bad boy slung on my back!

Offline Varius

  • Ah yes, poor infantry; Mere beggars...
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 3,280
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 68
  • Fight or flight? Yeah, right!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2011, 20:42:51 »
Anyone know if this specialist position is an actual MOSID or are they just temporarily filling the positions when needed?  If it becomes a line position at a RCAF unit, I imagine the trade will become blue vice green.

I've spoke to several guys who have all said it's an Armoured position. Ostensibly, it's so that there's a liason in air to provide info on vehicle movements from the sky.

Not 100% sure of its veracity but it sounds plausible!

Offline PJGary

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 4,220
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 94
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2011, 20:56:38 »
I know 3 guys who got on, one armoured, two infantry. I have no clue how the selection process is made, as both people I asked said the exact same thing (as previously stated) "Right place right time".  :'(

If it's actually made into a MOSID I would love to see the tsunami of applications...*sigh* including mine. Ha ha!
Cù-Chaorach

The 3 rules of the army:

Rule #1: Always look cool.
Rule #2: Always know what you're doing.
Rule #3: If you don't know what you're doing...always look cool.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 131,820
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,589
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2011, 21:02:18 »
I have two buddies who are doing this, both infantry reservists on Class B for a couple years. It was literally a matter of the class B opportunities were posted, and quickly snapped up by those who heard of them first. It's temporary positions being filled in because frankly it would be a waste of skilled aircrew to have them sit behind a gun- whereas infantry reservists seeking work are a dime a dozen, and generally are already familiar with MGs to some extent.

One of the guys I know previously did the job on tour. He was sitting on replacement pool in Oscar Coy for TF 3-08 when an NCO walked in and baldly asked "Who wants to be a helicopter door gunner?" He was met with crickets- it sounded too much like a "Who likes ice cream?". Eventually my buddy and a couple other guys cautiously put their hands up- and away they went to be helicopter door gunners.

It's not an armoured position or any such thing- they're door gunners and that's all.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Ditch

  • Established 1998
  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 26,362
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,341
  • I routinely step in it, but like conflict...
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2011, 21:13:57 »
The observer position on the Kiowa was an Armoured NCM's job.  That is because they conducted the age-old RAPZ recce with the Loach.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2011, 22:34:52 »
The observer position on the Kiowa was an Armoured NCM's job.  That is because they conducted the age-old RAPZ recce with the Loach.

Also some gunners too don't forget, given AOP and ABFAC were also LOH tasks, but you're right...mostly armoured, with a number of tankers who OT'd to PLT after serving as observers and seeing how aviation was the best of both Army and Air Force for those so inclined.

There is not a hard DG MOSID, nor do I think there ever will be one.  Qualification, sure.  Trade, no. 

While some may critique LGen(Ret'd) Leslie as being anti-Reserve, this was a case where LGen Leslie as CLS made the case to CAS why he wanted to provide the DG capability primarily through the Reserves as a motivational perk.  There were some RegF DG's, but the majority were PRes folks.

Regards
G2G

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 209,777
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,583
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2011, 23:44:03 »

Ugh... Can you carry it then? I don't really want to go bush-bashing with that bad boy slung on my back!
HMGs are not really suited to the dismounted role. You can carry them for short distances. My vision on the HMG is vehicle borne, then dismounted to where its needed, then mount up and carry on....similar to mortars.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 105,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,392
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2011, 10:18:25 »
You will note from my profile photo that:

1) not all door gunners are from the Army

2) not all door gunners are NCMs

3) not all door guns are on green helicopters

 ;)

Offline CanadianTire

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 6,104
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 697
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2011, 11:48:23 »
My tour had at least two reservists as door gunners. They were told in no uncertain terms that it was competitive and they may not make it. Neither did - the guy from my regiment was sent to BG and the guy from FGH came to my platoon. It seems they ended up short, and my regiment got another guy in who actually deployed, and in his words "made a lot of grape juice." The tour was longer too - the TF returned in May, and he returned in August.


I have two buddies who are doing this, both infantry reservists on Class B for a couple years. It was literally a matter of the class B opportunities were posted, and quickly snapped up by those who heard of them first. It's temporary positions being filled in because frankly it would be a waste of skilled aircrew to have them sit behind a gun- whereas infantry reservists seeking work are a dime a dozen, and generally are already familiar with MGs to some extent.

One of the guys I know previously did the job on tour. He was sitting on replacement pool in Oscar Coy for TF 3-08 when an NCO walked in and baldly asked "Who wants to be a helicopter door gunner?" He was met with crickets- it sounded too much like a "Who likes ice cream?". Eventually my buddy and a couple other guys cautiously put their hands up- and away they went to be helicopter door gunners.

It's not an armoured position or any such thing- they're door gunners and that's all.
"Theirs not to reason why/Theirs but to do and die." - Tennyson

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 166,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,765
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2011, 12:08:05 »
You will note from my profile photo that:

1) not all door gunners are from the Army

2) not all door gunners are NCMs

3) not all door guns are on green helicopters

 ;)

Well SKT, technically, using "from" in the organizationally 'begat' sense, you should only be claiming #2 and #3...

 ;) ;)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 01:09:41 by Good2Golf »

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 105,615
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,392
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2011, 19:55:04 »

Offline HeavyHooker

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 1,584
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 64
Re: .50 on CF helicopters
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 19:55:14 »
DG is becoming an off shoot specialty (similar to Cbt Diver or Jumper) and will most likely be called Air Gnr - with roots to WWII Air Gunners on the bombers.  It will be manned solely by Cbt Arms NCMs, Cpl - Sgt with a WO potentially as section comd.  Tour experience preferred as they are the SMEs on the ground if it were to come to that - which draws on CH147 Afghan experiences.  Tac Hel Sqns on High Readiness will have a section complement assigned to them. No word on how 450 will crack this nut yet.

HH