Author Topic: Obligatory Service in the CAF  (Read 101732 times)

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Offline cupper

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2012, 22:58:04 »
The member is in his period of obligatory service now.  I realize those sorts of calculations are tough, but I would love to tell this guy he won't be hit for $400,000.  My napkin math on that might be in error, but it blew me away.

I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2012, 23:10:36 »
I may be wrong but that seems quite high a number (but I don't claim to know anything on this subject). Even the most elite schools in the US don't cost that much for an undergrad degree. Maybe $100K.

Keep in mind that the individual repays not only tuition but also salary received while a student - that adds up quickly.
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Offline Wanderingaimlessly

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2012, 23:15:30 »
That is your calculation for reimbursement to the Crown for the 'Education' the CF has provided him with for his tenure at RMC?

Yes.  Factoring in salary, benefits, and cost of education for a former corporal it comes out to nearly that much.  I guess the big question is did I forget to carry the 1?

I factored in full pay and all that, but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000.  I wonder if the MND can reduce it to a more sane amount if the member puts in a memo or something to that effect.  He talked to me about his situation and I did feel for him.  No trades on offer for a guy they spent trying to make into an officer.  Seemingly only problems he has had are in phase training. 

Offline Robert0288

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2012, 23:31:06 »
Quote
but I have heard strange tales in similar cases where someone in similar shoes gets hit for around $100,000

I can confirm that those tales weren't all that strange (though amount was slightly less), and can be paid out over the course of a decade.  This individual was not in the same circumstances as your buddy

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 10:03:07 »
So why can't the guy come here and give us the specifics and ask his own questions?

Getting things through an intermediary and second hand may result in wrong passage of information and potentially, financial detriment.

It would be much better for you to point him here and let him carry his own ball.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 10:18:26 »
I believe "he" already is.   8)
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 13:45:35 »
for salary - are you using just the years he was in school? Assuming 4 years there that would put him roughly at $200k just for salary.

Those at $100k and less are most likely ROTP OCdts getting a lot less pay than a Cpl, less time to pay back for or have had it reduced.

I would suggest that if he only has a couple years left then he serve them and save a lot of money and heartache.  As mentioned there is no return to offset what he will owe in the end.
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Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 22:47:51 »
How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!

The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.

People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school. 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 23:29:22 »
How can you have 10 years in and STILL HAVE oblig service?!

The max amount anyone can incur is 5 years for a period of subsidize education, unless he went on to do a Masters/PhD (if you take 1.5-2 years, that adds 3-4), that would put him over the 10 years required to do school and pay it off.

People have released with only a year or less than a year of their time served and it has cost them between 30k - 50k. Nothing in the realm of 400k or even 100k, unless he was a UTPNCM getting Cpl spec 2 or Sgt/WO pay WHILE he was in school.



Please.....Think before you hit send. 


Here are some examples:


VIE for 00191 051 Dent DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00191 051 Dent ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00192 048 HCA DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00192 048 HCA ROTP is 13 years

VIE for 00195 057 NUR DEO is 6 years
VIE for 00195 057 NUR ROTP is 10 years

VIE for 00196 055 MED DEO is 5 years
VIE for 00196 055 MED ROTP is 12 years

VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL DEO is 4 years
VIE for 00204 067 LEGAL MLTP is 13 years

VIE for 00214 081 MPO DEO is 9 years
VIE for 00214 081 MPO ROTP is 13 years





There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 23:55:56 by George Wallace »
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Offline yoman

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2012, 00:18:02 »
George, I don't think your talking about the same thing. Obligatory service in the sense they're talking about isn't the same thing as the VIE. I have a 12 year VIE but my obligatory service is only 2 months of service for every month of education (normally five years if ROTP). As a result the member could release before the end of his VIE without incurring any financial penalties due to his schooling if his period of obligatory service is served.

It's also quite possible for a member to have 10 years in while still having obligatory service.

Potential example fitting this case for someone going for pilot:

3 years former NCM trade
4 years of milcol                                                        owes 5 years
3 years to get trade qualified to get wings               time restarts, owes 5 years
Fails phase training after getting wings                    still has whatever time remaining of his pilot obligatory service

This is an extreme case but it's just to show that it is possible to have obligatory service with 10 years of service.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 21:52:34 by yoman »
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Offline DAA

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2012, 09:05:08 »
First off, there should be a "Statement of Understanding" on the members Pers File which will outline what is or isn't applicable to the individual which they would have had to sign prior to commencement of subsidized education.  A period of "Restricted Release" runs concurrent with the period of "Obligatory Service".  If the member is contemplating release, I see no reason why a request cannot be initiated by the member through the supporting Release Section to DGMC requesting a "pay back value" based on a future date.

This will allow the person sufficient information on which to make an informed decision.

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Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2012, 12:25:11 »


Please.....Think before you hit send.

There are many more examples where Obligatory Service is over 10 years in length.


Right back at you, mister. Just because I'm a forum noob, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about when I post or don't have anything meaningful to contribute.

Oligatory service is time you MUST pay back before you can release (or face financial penalty). Variable Initial Engagement is the first contract you sign and the amount of service you must fullfil prior to being eligible for full release benefits when leaving the CF. 


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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2012, 12:52:56 »
VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.

Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2012, 13:49:48 »
VIE can also equal obligatory service, which was the case with my CT and awarding of recruitment allowance. Had I not served those 4 years, I would owe a prorated amount of the $20,000 back.

Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.

 ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.

I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.
 

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2012, 14:02:59 »
Correct, part of you VIE is obligatory service but the reverse is NOT true.

 ROTP candidates usually end up with a  13 year VIE, 4 years is spent in school, 5 is paying back for the school (obligatory service), and the last 4 is just your VIE. If you finished the first 9 years, you do NOT owe monies to the Crown. The first 9 years are simultaneously obligatory and part of your VIE, but the last 4 years is in NO WAY mandatory or will cause you to incur some kind of debt against the Crown.

I'm only speaking for officers, I don't know how it works for NCMs receiving subsidized education. I imagine it is very similar, only the time frames would be different.

4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.

Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.

Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2012, 15:22:01 »
For OP: buddy can just put in a release, obtain an answer from Ottawa and refuse the sign the documents if the cost is too high. If you don't sign the papers, they cannot release you for a 4C release. It's as simple as that.

He can also ask to have his release date extended from the date Ottawa gives him, in order to cut down on the amount he owes and reduce it to a sum he can afford to pay. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.

4 years spent in school, as a non-spec pay Cpl 4, for pay alone is $231168.

Owing 5 years on the same pay rate would be $288960. It's possible for him to owe more than 5 years depending on the trade, and there's also education and other expenses incurred by the crown.

Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, it does NOT include your salary. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!

The chart lists 60 months as the maximum amount of oblig service that can be incurred for ONE period of subsidised education, no matter what kind of officer/NCM training program you fall under.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

The only exception is pilot, in which case they have NO OPTION to buy themselves out of their contract anyway.
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 15:24:56 by M_M »

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2012, 01:55:13 »
Now here's another common misconception. When you reimburse the Crown for educational expenses, it is generally only how much it cost to train you, it does NOT include your salary. If financial penalties for terminating your contract before you finished included salaries, I don't imagine many people would be able to afford the pay out. I heard a rumour that UTPNCMs have to reimburse their salary but OP also didn't state that his friend is a UT; stop scaring the poor guy!

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp
Quote
15.07 – VOLUNTARY RELEASE AFTER
SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION OR TRAINING

. . . . . .

(2) Where in the opinion of the Chief of Defence Staff
special and unforeseen circumstances require that an
officer or non-commissioned member apply for his
release prior to the completion of the minimum period of
service referred to in paragraph (1), the member’s release
may be approved if the exigencies of the service permit;
however, approval of release for other than
compassionate reasons is contingent on the member
refunding all or a portion of the cost incurred by the
public, determined under paragraph (3),
for his
attendance at courses as prescribed by the Chief of the
Defence Staff.

(3) Where under paragraph (2) all or a portion of the cost
incurred by the public is to be reimbursed, the amount of
that reimbursement shall be:

(a) the total cost incurred by the public in providing
the course, if the release occurs within 12 months of
the commencement of the required minimum period
of service; or

(b) that part of the cost incurred by the public that is
the equivalent in ratio of the number of months still to
be served (part of a month being reckoned as a full
month), to the total number of months of the
minimum period of service, if the release occurs
within that required minimum period of service but
more than 12 months after commencement of that
period.

(4) The cost incurred by the public on which
reimbursement shall be based shall be
:

(a) the amount paid by the Crown either directly to
the institution providing the instruction or by
reimbursement of the officer or non-commissioned
member for fees or any other costs arising out of or
attributable to his attendance under instruction, but in
the case of an officer attending a Canadian Military
College the amount shall be the fees and expenses as
prescribed in the Queen’s Regulations and Orders for
the Canadian Military Colleges; and

(b) except for any period during which the member
performed normal service duties, pay and allowances
including the rate of subsistence allowance for his
rank and status, whether in issue or not, applicable
from time to time in the period for which he attended
the course
, but not including

(i) transportation and travelling expenses provided
to send him and his dependents, furniture and
effects to or from the course,
(ii) any assisted leave transportation benefits
extended to him, or
(iii) income tax deductions applicable to that
period.

(5) Notwithstanding this article, the Minister may
authorize a reduction in the portion to be refunded by the
officer or non-commissioned member to such reasonable
part of the cost incurred by the public as he may consider
appropriate, having regard to any special and unforeseen
circumstances.
(G)

It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary. 

At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 02:20:06 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline yoman

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2012, 02:11:50 »
It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour or misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary.

Yep. Some guy I know was making Cpl salary while at the college and decided it would be a good idea to release after being there for three years. He quickly changed his mind after finding out it would cost him an arm and a leg... roughly 200k if I recall correctly.
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Offline MJP

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2012, 07:11:40 »
[At one time (but not quite in the stone age) a common practice in dealing with newly commissioned officers who received an education on the CF's dime but failed to qualify in any MOC was to employ them as an untrained 2Lt (or OCdt) at NDHQ (. . . OIC photocopying).  I don't know how that plays these days, but more than a few young men who thought they were on their way to a good job in the private sector without any student loans (and thinking they had fooled the system) ended up spending three to four years doing menial work in Ottawa.
[/quote]

Talking to some folks in the SEM, that isn't being entertained anymore.  If one fails obtain MOC status and unsuited for any other trade or refuses to try another trade, then they are released.  Upon release they are financially responsible for expenses incurred.
Hope is not a valid COA

Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2012, 21:06:42 »
Do you have a reference that supports your statement (applicable portion highlighted by me) other than (IMO) an incomplete reading of  DAOD 5049-1?  If you had gone to some of the references of that DAOD you would have found the applicable QR&O that states pay and allowances are included in the calculation.

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp
It doesn't matter the rank or the subsidized education plan (and it's neither rumour nor misconception), if someone requests (and is granted) voluntary release before completing a period of obligatory service, the calculation for reimbursement to the Crown includes salary. 


Okay, I apologize for misinformation/confusion. Maybe I should have explained myself better; I should have said "you MAY NOT have to pay back your salary". Sorry. What I stated in my prior post is based onanecdotal evidence of RMC cadets who have released 1 year or sooner after graduation. Several of them who recently left only ended up repaying 32k to the Crown.

So let's break it down:

ROTP salary is about 17k a year, 4 years of salary alone is 71k, if we subtract 9 months of salary for the time they are away at training during the summer, we end up with about 52k worth of salary debt. Tuition at RMC ranges from $1,808 - $ 3,287 per year, so lets take something in the middle and call it $2,400 x 4 =  $9600. This gives you a grand total of just over 60k of debt owed to the Crown, how is it that multiple people ended up paying the Crown back only half that after just a year of service?

It's a mystery of the universe.

What I was trying to say is that if people were actually "paying back all of their salary" (as per the DAOD), they would be paying back much much more. You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.

 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 21:11:18 by M_M »

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2012, 21:14:46 »
You can't accurately estimate what you will owe based on tuition and your salary, you have to ask Ottawa for their magical calculations! Many people were surprised by the amount after being told it could be 80k+.

Granted, but you can conservatively estimate total liability using salary+.

His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he could be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.

Offline modestmouse

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2012, 21:19:07 »
Granted, but you can conservatively estimate total liability using salary+.

His back of an envelope calculation of $400k+ for an ex-NCM isn't ridiculous, its a scary estimate of what he could be expected to pay to avoid re-muster into a trade he doesn't want.

If Ottawa REALLY hates you, you may have to pay the $400k. I'm just saying that buddy here shouldn't be scared to go see what it is based on what other people are telling him because he might not have to pay it back. And most people don't end up paying back their full salary or even a large chunk of it. He really should go see for himself what Ottawa has to say about him releasing.

I have close friends went through the same thing. Many people advised against their releases told them that they'd owe 100+k and I would go bankrupt trying to pay it back. If one friend had listened to them, she would still be stuck on the opposite side of the country from her husband; and another one would have missed out an awesome opportunity to attend law school.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 21:23:13 by M_M »

Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2012, 13:04:22 »
Greetings,
Sorry if this is a repeat question.

As ROTP after completing your mandatory service (2 months service for each 1 month school), is it possible to release before the VIE is up without any negative feedback? As in, could you use the military as reference, provided of course that during your service your yearly performance reviews have been good? Or would it be frowned upon? Basically looking at other government jobs, depending on how the service in the army will be.

I have not signed up with the idea that I will release before my VIE. I actually hope I will make 15-25 years before releasing. But I always like to know my options. And some of my alternatives involves government positions.

Any more info regarding the VIE would be appreciated.

Thanks

Offline blue

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2012, 14:46:52 »
More info on obligatory service and release:
http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

Deciding to release before your period of incurred obligatory service has expired, in itself, will certainly not leave you with any "negative feedback" or so-called 'black marks' on your file.
Good conduct/performance during your time in the CF can only help a potential future application to other government careers. I don't know enough about exactly what information follows you to comment further.

That said, there is always going to be some stigma associated with members who chose to voluantarly release during training (including ROTP). It will not stick with you, especially if you have legitimate reasons for release.

Offline Messerschmitt

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Re: Obligatory Service in the CAF
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2012, 19:08:41 »
Thank you for the answer, the only one yet :)

I am only concerned regarding releasing after my mandatory service (due to my ROTP) but before my VIE. Mainly I want to know exactly what does VIE entails in regards to releasing before the VIE term is up. This considering from the fact that you can seem to be able to voluntarily release at any time, then what is the purpose of the VIE (or any other contracts). Is it just a job guarantee that you will have employment with the CF for that period?