Milnet.ca Forums

Milnet.ca => Communications & Electronics => Topic started by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on June 05, 2008, 02:19:26

Title: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on June 05, 2008, 02:19:26
Figured I'd start a new thread as the start of this was in my previous "Cease of Training" rumour mill thread...

Today (4 Jun 08) I attended the Lecture on our Trade Amalgamation... It was quite a dump of info with some answers and more questions towards the end... Lecture started about 13H00 sharp and ended 16H30ish...

New trade will (tentatively) be called: Communication and Information Systems Technologist (CIST). They're wanting to drop the Technologist part of it and put something else in there but for the time being we were told (by the Master Sig) that's what the name is for now.  There was a lot to absorb so I'll do my best to blurt it out for you all...

General info given in Introduction: 3 out of 5 trades covered in C&E Branch are army owned+run now, LCIS, Sig Op, Lineman... Approx 4000 pers across C&E Branch of CF with approx 50% spread out all across entire CF and others posted to "traditional" positions for each trade respectively. Manpower shortages by trade: Sig Op - 220-300pers (I give this range b/c the Master Sig gave both figures during the lecture), 100 LCIS, 0 Lineman. So it seems the Lineman aren't having recruiting problems. They said part of this problem (no kidding) might be because the Aptitude Qualification for Lineman is 18 where for Sig and LCIS it's 30. This obviously disqualifies some people. We'll cover that more later...

1.) The Amalgamation stems from project MOSART originating in 1999, whose purpose it was to examine the  CF Trades and determine if there was a way to cut-down how many Trades were. The reason they wanted to cut down the amount of trades is because someone thought we didn't need as many seeing as our legal manpower was cut from 90,000 to 60,000 ASAP back then etc... This project stopped dead in it's tracks approx April 2006. When the new CWO (now our Master Sig) CWO Helmann(sp?), he was told to get the ball rolling once again on Amalgamation.

2.) Program now called MES, I scribbled that note unfortunately and have only gotten Mes- Military E???? Structure. Basically MES has the same purpose in mind but is actively enforcing change as we stay Operational and keep a high tempo. No cease of training anywhere or operations to accomodate the new changes.

3.) Without posting a bunch of the technical yabber, I'll give it to you straight...

BMQ+SQ for everyone (no surprise) then a common CIST course which will have components of all the 3 trades... The idea of this course is to have a CIST be able to perform Line 1 repairs on equipment in a rad van etc... That's the whole purpose, use and maintain/repair the equipment. He (Master Sig) said that the idea is to have field expedient fixes for everything from line breaks to troubleshooting the TCCCS system in the back of a CP van...

After this common core training, you would be posted to HQ+Sigs of each respective Brigade as is now for most Sig Ops, learning the ropes of Brigade life and that whole back of worms. The Corporals/Specialists would be moved on to other postings etc... Yes, I said Specialists. So after you're "Core" CIST training, you would be evaluated by you're Chain of Command at you're unit, consulted (asked what you'd like to do) and given the option to "Specialize" in one of the 3 old trades. Kind of... LCIS, Sig Op, Lineman. So then you get more specific training pertaining to that job. All this training will be conducted mostly at CFSCE. They are trying to find a way to make the training unit-doable so they can get people trained faster and keep them up to date. Weather that's hiring civilian instructors locally or sending people to local educational institutions Master Sig did not specify. Onward...

So you've been at you're unit for a year or two, you've got some dirt behind you're ears, you're asked what you want to specialize in, you say Sig Op (of course the best Trade...  ;) ) you do you're first specialist training (Which might be called QL4). You go back to unit, work for a few more years, get course loaded on a QL5A... This is where it gets interesting...

QL5+QL6 will be COMMON for the trade. So all CIST trades people, even though you've now "specialized" in you're respective field, will go to a 5A/6A etc, and do a common course mixed back in with other Lineman, Operator and LCIS types... This is to ensure we're all on the same page, we use the same lingo, we all have the same training to a degree and can communicate effectively. So that when a Sig Op is talking about a CEOI, an LCIS tech will know exactly what's he's yammering on about. And so that when you call a "tech" in to fix the stupid NAU in the back of you're rad van, he understands what you're saying and how it doesn't work from an operator's point of view. Interoperability.  I'm giving the exact examples Master Sig gave BTW...

Grandfathering us who are already in and trade qualified? Sort of. They haven't worked out the details yet on what rank they'll cut that off from. Example: Tel ops being amalgamated in the past, simply told to get out or remuster? Nope, not this time. Apparently we'll be given a choice if we're under the rank cutoff, say for example it's MCpl, to pick our specialty, according to our current employment/unit and work experience and training, with education being included in the deciding factor.

Another interesting point. Since we will ALWAYS be considered a CIST, no matter what and will be technically under the same trade, no remustering. If you've been a Sig Op  Sub trade for the past 3 years, you can switch to lineman without having to perform a remuster. And they want this to be able to be completed and decided at the unit level. So obviously they're expecting the unit to know their troops!

Manning issues: Since the Sig Op trade in particular is so short on people, they're also looking at changing the style of recruiting. Currently, it takes an Aptitude score of 30 or higher to be able to apply for Sig Op or LCIS tech, but only 18 for a Lineman. They have studied this and found that partially this is the reason that the Lineman trade isn't really short. They think the bar is set a little too high for Sigs and LCIS and that otherwise would-be CIST's are getting turned away or going to another trade. They're going to put further study into this and see if they can lower the Aptitude requirement to something more reasonable. Because to them, a Lineman is just as intelligent as a Sig Op as a LCIS tech... We Sigs know better of course!  ^-^  Furthermore, they're going to make it very easy for other trades to remuster into Sig Op/CIST, at the moment there is a standing order CF wide that if a combat arms soldier wants to remuster to Sigs, his CO cannot decline, he has to approve and pass it up. The Master Sig said this program was implemented and advertised about 4 years ago by unit CO's (or was suppose to have been advertised, I could see how that got brushed by...) but said they will look at revisiting this idea and refreshing it.

SPEC PAY

So, obviously I bet you were wondering what was said about this... Well guess what! Nothing definitive. He said that the whole purpose of amalgamation is NOT about Spec pay, it's about manning and making us more effective. He said amalgamation will address approx 80% of our manning issues and problems currently. It's not perfect, but it'll work and it's definitely better than our current situation. So what about Spec pay you say? As of now, nothing changes, they're looking at it continuously and trying to sort of "qualify" the new trade for it. He said that's up to the Treasury to decide who deserves it or not. He said they look at similar civilian occupations and their pay levels and determine if they need to issue Spec pay to that trade of troops. He said that it will not be a deciding factor at all in the upcoming changes but they will do their best. He did sound hopeful about it though and said that they'll receive feedback from the Treasury on what to work on to "qualify".

Trade Amalgamation is aimed to be completely implemented by Spring 2011. New "CIST" type courses and training being updated at CFSCE by Sept' 08.

So, that just about sums it up, I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting but that's what I was able to scribble down as important points and get to you people here.

Thoughts? Gripes? Complaints? Release forms? What new Sub-trade do you want?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on June 05, 2008, 07:23:17
Uhh, so people under the cut off rank going to have to do the common course?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on June 05, 2008, 07:50:55
Hopefully the rank level is Cpl, or even grant exceptions/waivers for experianced(ie, time in unit, tour, etc) Ptes. If they made everyone under MCpl redo a QL3 course I'd be pretty choked. Hopefully having a couple years in a Infantry Battalion(posted there straight off my QL3) and a tour will be good enough to not have to go back an do a QL3 course all over again.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on June 05, 2008, 09:15:55
Actually nobody under the cutoff, as it seems so far, will have to be doing the new training. They said it would be impossible. They're going to take time in, tours, postings etc and qualify you based on experience primarily, and maybe just give some background training to accomodate/upgrade as needed. That's the idea from my understanding of what the Master Sig said. He said it would be rediculous to try and retrain everyone! They're also trying to lower the training time to below 100 days, seeing as right now the training timem for a Sig Op is 105 days and for the other trades even longer...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 05, 2008, 11:11:38
Sig Joe...

Thank you! Much appreciated for the sitrep.

Out
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jager on June 05, 2008, 12:28:23
I sketched down the graph thing he had going for the QLx's, here's the vague info (if I got it right)

Basically Spring 2009 New CIST QL3
Spring 2011 New CIST QL5 (giving all the guys who finished there 3's before spring 09 a chance I guess)
Spring 2011 New CIST QL6..... all the way to QL7(?)

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on June 05, 2008, 13:49:33
Wow - lots of info.  But I anticipate lots of changes before the polished version is delivered.

The Master of Signals is CWO Hohmann by the way.....not that I could ever name the MOS during my younger days.

Some things I read are surprising.  Lowering the aptitude for Sig Op/LCIS.......yuck.  Lower standards on aptitude to make up numbers is such a friggen bad thing for the trade it's not funny.  I'd rather be a man short than have an extra man requiring constant supervision.  I'd be willing to bet that if Aptitude minimums changed that we'd either see A) more failures on QL3 which causes even more strain on the system when you end up with people awaiting training and losing motivation or B) the standards of CFSCE following suit and tailoring ECs/PCs to match.  Not good either way. 

On another note - although I'm not a big advocate of Spec Pay for "Rad Ops" (I am 215 FTR)
, perhaps it's time to make the trade more appealling to others.  I have friends in various other trades and have never heard anyone say they'd EVER want to be a Sig Op.  I've even found over the years that remusters were often rare - not unheard of.  We'd get the occasional Ex-031er going to the dark side......but very rare.  Maybe spec pay is not the right way to do things, but it would in my opinion be better than lowering standards.  Signing bonus anyone?  I know of a few people who've made the jump from Res to Reg taking full advantage of the ever changing Sig Op 20G bonus.  Whatever works.

I was surprised that there was no mention of a separate trade or division of IT type operators.  I don't think that someone is looking at the whole picture and the evolution of equipment if they think they're going to continue to use the common Sig Op for highly skilled IT positions.  Sure some people are doing just fine now, but is it just me or does the same thing happen every posting season where there is a refresh and fresh meat goes through the grinder all over again in order to turn out competent IT people?  I'm not talking about Help Desk but rather of troops using COTS equipment in the field units.  I understand the need of cross training someone when you are talking about something like moving dets - I just think the learning curve and training requirements have demonstrated quite clearly that another trade is required.  There has to be a few canvass slingers out there who agree at least a bit.  Bueller?  Bueller?

Anyway, informative but still very cloudy.  How was moral after your briefing?  What was the overall mood or opinion about the future as delivered by the Master of Signals?  If I know my fellow 215s, I'd say there was a whole lotta bitchin'.

Bin
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jager on June 05, 2008, 14:57:59
I'll try to answer a few of the questions:

Quote
On another note - although I'm not a big advocate of Spec Pay for "Rad Ops" (I am 215 FTR)

Specifically spec pay would be awarded to bring certain 'sub speciality's' up to par with civi employment, as in the same way spec pay is used now.

Quote
I was surprised that there was no mention of a separate trade or division of IT type operators

I guess Sig Joe missed this part. The CIST trade will be broken down into several (read 4) sub trades.

The main CIST which will be operators, from what I jotted down during the meeting they will be responsible for the Rad truck, and basic trouble shooting, 1st line Com's including line (FOCA, etc) including road crossings, splices, etc

CS - Basically LCIS, responsible for the actually repair etc...

Line - Line, responsible for the majority of line, both black and red

IT- And the IT side of things, such as help desk, computer repair, etc

Now this is all subject to change, and I might of got a few things wrong or written in the wrong spot..

Quote
Anyway, informative but still very cloudy.  How was moral after your briefing?  What was the overall mood or opinion about the future as delivered by the Master of Signals?  If I know my fellow 215s, I'd say there was a whole Lotta bitchin'.

The moral was OK afterwards, a lot of confusion though. I'd have to say the overall mood and opinion isn't all to great at this exact moment. A lot of grey areas exist at this exact moment, and will come to affect us all once the plan goes thru. Some are wondering about what courses they are going to end up having to do, etc... And yea, there was a good amount of bitchin'

[edit]guess I need to learn how to spell  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 15:29:52
Parts of this make sense to me, at least the the LCIS-Sig Op bridge...

I've had problems (And some extremely good experiences, they're not all terrible) in the past with LCIS techs conducting 1st line repairs, one particular pair in Kingston comes to mind, who spent a full 10 hours "diganosing" my truck, before finally at a conclusion which matched exactly what I had told them was wrong and what to repair from the very beginning, a little bit of experience operating the equipment you're going to fix is going to be huge asset in the long run...

Other benefit, having the operators able to perform first line maintenance would be a huge boon as well. Doesn't take a great deal of skill or training to teach somone to conduct basic soldering repairs of connectors, to swap out cards, or replace a HUB.

The major DOWNSIDE I see to this? Skill fade. Train people too broadly, they'll forget whatever they don't use on a regular basis, and they'll loose it, but that's a forces wide problem anyway, training up to our necks, and not enough opportunity to get skilled.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 05, 2008, 15:36:14
The major DOWNSIDE I see to this? Skill fade. Train people too broadly, they'll forget whatever they don't use on a regular basis...

IMO the Amalgamation would improve this.. as you would become a 'specialist' in one area - with a general base of knowledge in everything.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 15:46:22
IMO the Amalgamation would improve this.. as you would become a 'specialist' in one area - with a general base of knowledge in everything.

Not even close. The way I read it, you start out as somone loosely trained in all three jobs, then get "specialized" into one job, all three of the jobs already each cover a very large area of expertise (Example, I brought some busted TCCCS cables into our STIS guys the other day, because as the only techs, they've got to sign off on the NS tags... they all became rather excited, because it was the first "green" kit they'd seen in a long time...)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on June 05, 2008, 15:48:52
IMO the Amalgamation would improve this.. as you would become a 'specialist' in one area - with a general base of knowledge in everything.

LMFAO.......

I dont understand how people can buy that argument. I know you army types ar allergic to anything air force but maybe you should come and see how our amalgamations worked out. The "super tech" things didnt exactly work out. In fact, the process has started to undo some of it.

"Jacks of all trades, masters of none"
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 05, 2008, 15:54:46
they all became rather excited, because it was the first "green" kit they'd seen in a long time...)

And unless I am way out to lunch, this would be resolved with the separation of the IT and the repair trades of LCIS.... No?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on June 05, 2008, 16:06:35
Not even close. The way I read it, you start out as somone loosely trained in all three jobs, then get "specialized" into one job, all three of the jobs already each cover a very large area of expertise (Example, I brought some busted TCCCS cables into our STIS guys the other day, because as the only techs, they've got to sign off on the NS tags... they all became rather excited, because it was the first "green" kit they'd seen in a long time...)

Like I mentioned before, looks like there'll be some requirement for some polish on the plan.  Making a someone into an operator in 100 days is tough enough (from what I've seen) - but then saying they'll also be responsible for 1st line maintenance on gear is another story.  First line maint in the old days was A) check your settings B) check your cables C) give it a boot D) perform drop test E) replace it with one of the other several spares that were at your immediate disposal.  Not a lot of spare RT-5121s to go around though so now operators will be responsible for their own gear?  What a novel idea.

Guess this means the pyramid builders will not be allowed to continually hoard hold up batteries as replacing a HUB will no longer be a "tech only" job (ok - so this was an encounter I had once).

Finally, a part of the plan that makes perfect sense though.

Bin
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 17:01:51
First line maint in the old days was A) check your settings B) check your cables C) give it a boot D) perform drop test E) replace it with one of the other several spares that were at your immediate disposal.  Not a lot of spare RT-5121s to go around though so now operators will be responsible for their own gear?  What a novel idea.

Guess this means the pyramid builders will not be allowed to continually hoard hold up batteries as replacing a HUB will no longer be a "tech only" job (ok - so this was an encounter I had once).

There's a great many things I do/have done that are supposed to be "tech only", but of course, we have no techs... so...

Like I said, doesn't take long to teach somone to solder/use a a fluke meter.

Another downside, I see this as just one more nail in the coffin of the line trade...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 05, 2008, 18:12:51
Another downside, I see this as just one more nail in the coffin of the line trade...

Linemen will always be needed to splice FOCA. Plus its for the greater good.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 18:42:56
The problem with linemen is, 90% of what they do can easily be replaced by contractors... unfortunately, by replacing them with contractors, we loose the other 10% of what they do....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 05, 2008, 18:50:18
Dont Sigs do that other 10% anyways?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 18:50:59
No.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: HFXCrow on June 05, 2008, 18:53:55
Out of my lane story, but my trade (NESOP) amalgamated EW Operator & Fire Controller (two separate completely different trades) in 1985

we still haven't recovered? (as CDN Avaitor can attest to EW is easily a trade by itself)

My question is what happens if somebody can't climb or is afraid of heights. Are they remustred as they do not meet the OC Specs of this new super trade?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 18:55:51
Great question, particularly if they make pole-climbing part of the CIST portion...

I know sig-ops who had originally planned on being linemen, but courtesy of a fear of heights..
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: X-mo-1979 on June 05, 2008, 20:52:43
The problem with linemen is, 90% of what they do can easily be replaced by contractors... unfortunately, by replacing them with contractors, we loose the other 10% of what they do....

Really?That guy crawling with the wires around the defensive position could be a civilian from chalk river?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on June 05, 2008, 21:41:14
Really?That guy crawling with the wires around the defensive position could be a civilian from chalk river?

Preferably not, and that's why I said we'd loose the other 10%.

No need to be sarcastic, I'm in favor of keeping the line men
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: canadianmak on June 05, 2008, 22:55:56
So for someone just going into SIG OPS, already passed my CFAT so there will be no falling standards from me! This means I’ll still be trained,  probably in a more round-about but hopefully quicker way. However once trained the SIG OPS job and duties will remain the same correct? Just making sure I’m still applying for the same job! Thanks
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: adaminc on June 05, 2008, 23:37:22
I am joining up in about a month, hopefully to the LCIS Trade, I already have a college education in Electronics Engineering Technology(3yr program), and the recruiter told me that more than likely I will get to skip POET and go straight to OJT after BMQ/SQ, so what do you think would happen for someone like me?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on June 05, 2008, 23:47:41
So, for the IT side of the trade then, what would the postings be like? All static ASG units? It's confusing,  there will be 4 seperate QL4 then?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on June 06, 2008, 00:54:33
Here we go with the Q and no A.

Guys, it was a casual info session.  Things are still in the developing stages and there is no way to answer all the "what ifs" at this point.  Especially concerning individual cases.

I don't see where you are drawing info as to withdrawing the Line trade.  If anything, by the sounds of this - the Line trade is secure for at least the next 10-15 years.  Theres something about Operators that makes them think they can do a Line or LCIS job.  "I can lay wire", "I can change a stupid card".  Yeah - and anyone can talk on the friggen radio so get over yourself.  Again, I'm an operator sick of hearing other operators say these types of things.

I'm thinking the title of this thread may have been a bit misleading.  And now we'll get people pop in thinking they'll be able to get info on something that's not really decided yet. 

As for the many other questions I'm sure will pop up here by the merely curious onlookers.....here are some words to live by......

"Wait Out"

Bin

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: canadianmak on June 06, 2008, 01:30:23
probably good advise, thanks anyways
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 06, 2008, 09:47:58
LMFAO.......

I dont understand how people can buy that argument. I know you army types ar allergic to anything air force but maybe you should come and see how our amalgamations worked out. The "super tech" things didnt exactly work out. In fact, the process has started to undo some of it.

"Jacks of all trades, masters of none"

You mean the 500 series and ATIS too?  'Cause the ATIS trade isn't exactly all that well sorted out IMO.  Way to broad for one MOC.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on June 06, 2008, 10:46:22
You mean the 500 series

Yes, i was talking about the 500 series. I dont know much about ATIS though.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on June 06, 2008, 15:03:08
I don't see the same similarities in these 2 imalgamations that are being discussed.

The way I see it, you join the Signals Corps as a CSIT (Sig Op or whatever you want to call it).  Your basic trades training (QL3) will consist of some VERY basic introduction into the other trades.  We're talking theory here people - Sig Ops will not be climbing pole, splicing fibre, swapping cards, or troubleshooting networks on a 100+/- day course when you consider the end state is an det operator.  For all you operators who disagree - think back to your QL3.  Rad theory, Antenna theory, Electricity theory, Basic EW, log books - now for some basic computer training, typing, voice procedure - what about Iris, the CI, PLGR/DAGR, SAS, LAN/LDN - don't forget another week (or so) each for setting up antennas, genny, det drills.....I'm going just from what I think is being taught at the school here - maybe I'm forgetting something.  Oh - field Ex?  I suppose that one is big.  Anyway, it's impossible with the timeline given for this 3's course - no matter what way you look at it that an operator would leave with anything more than "some" exposure to what a test set does - and how fibre really works. 

I think some people got the wrong idea with the idea that CSIT will be able to do more - it's not THAT much more.  I think you can factor in that QL3 for every other trade (Jimmy cap badge) will probably be scrapped and it'll be more of a QL4 so to speak.  That's where you would branch off or stay the course as an operator, learning your basic skills for that path/trade/whatever.

I don't think the imalgamation should be thought of like the old Tel Op changeover - which it seems to me that this was what the Air Force did with their big move.  But I can't say for sure, I haven't really looked at the other imalgamation you guys are speaking of.

I dunno - just a hunch.

Bin

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISTech227 on June 16, 2008, 15:54:29
First off, First-line maintenance does not mean you open radios up.  so if you suspect a radio is N/S you replace it and send it back to be repaired.  2nd line would be replacing cards etc.  I know the reserve supply/repair system is a little messed up, but the only person who should be opening a radio is the person sitting in front of a test bench (read IFR).  Otherwise you risk breaking the device further, argue all you want, if I caught someone opening a radio who shouldn't be, I'd have their...

Second, if this amalgamation goes off, the lineman will get the PBX as a responsibility, thus increasing their arcs of responsibility not diminishing them.

At this point it's a lot of hearsay anyway.  I got the same brief here in Kingston... and at that point nothing definitive was in place, nor a concrete timeline.  My advice don't get to wrapped around the axle over what you hear, just wait it out, for now there is no point worrying about it now.

As a personal aside, I think the trade amalgamation idea has a lot of merit, though I do have some major concerns about career progression, but those I will keep to myself, as this is neither the right place or the right forum to discuss my personal opinions on the matter.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on June 18, 2008, 16:19:33
First off, First-line maintenance does not mean you open radios up.  so if you suspect a radio is N/S you replace it and send it back to be repaired.  2nd line would be replacing cards etc.  I know the reserve supply/repair system is a little messed up, but the only person who should be opening a radio is the person sitting in front of a test bench (read IFR).  Otherwise you risk breaking the device further, argue all you want, if I caught someone opening a radio who shouldn't be, I'd have their...

Seriously, is this nothing more than protecting the empire?  Nobody is trying to steal your job nor your spec pay.  The Army will always need 227s, but for the record, I've been on two courses for operators within the last couple of years whereby we dared to delve into the 227 world.  On the first, we were shown how to use a Spectrum Analyzer and the second, we were shown how to change cards of a newer radio WHILE being given a qualification to change the card (LCMM approved).  Granted a couple of briefs on how to do this and that doesn't completely eliminate a trade in one quick sweep.  But perhaps the ever changing systems will no longer require the work force behind them to maintain equipment serviceability.  More and more equipment is coming with complex BITs that narrow down the error enough that a test bench required in the past.  I won't argue your training and skill, but I think the line may move a bit in the future as to what is done by who not because of people - but because of equipment and how "dummy proof" it is becoming.  Just my opinion of course.

At this point it's a lot of hearsay anyway.  I got the same brief here in Kingston... and at that point nothing definitive was in place, nor a concrete timeline.  My advice don't get to wrapped around the axle over what you hear, just wait it out, for now there is no point worrying about it now.

I was thinking the same thing - that's why I've already said something along the same lines.

Bin
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISTech227 on June 19, 2008, 13:57:08
I'm not trying to protect the 'empire' and when the trades amalgamate, the only people that will be allowed to open the radios will be the ones sitting in front of a bench.  The same way it is now.  It's just not practical to allow this to happen in other avenues.  You said you had qualifications that allowed you to change cards, I have no problems with qualified people doing their job.  My issue is with people opening stuff up that they shouldn't be, when they lack the qualifications, training, and test equipment to do the job properly.

Don't view this as a Tech versus Op thing, it was not the intent, I was clarifying a few misconceptions that were stated earlier by others.

As a side note, the MES QS writing board commences on 23 Jun, for the CS(Radios) sub trade.  I'm sure the others will ramp up shortly.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Xcalibar on June 28, 2008, 13:17:08
I think this is a bad idea that will come and bite is in the a$$ soon after it is implemented.  They say they want to run a "super" QL3 (sigs, Line, LCIS) in one course yet they want to make the course take less time?  What will be dropped?  Or is it, like I suspect, just a Sig Op course that briefly touches on the other trades and just gives the opportunity to go to the two other trades?  It seems to be that they want to get the number of people Sig Op qualified at the the expense of the other green C&E trades.

I can understand why the Linemen are unhappy.  There was a breifing a few months back for the Sig Ops and Linemen in Esquimalt and from what I heard, it seems that they wante to give all the garrison linemen task to outside contractors and keep the linemen in the field.  Most felt that it would lead to a loss of skills that would lbe crucial for linemen setting up or maintaining line in camps overseas.  None of them were happy with the prospect of the amalgamation or losing their cushy postings, and who can blame them?

The CF is hell bent on going though with this merger, so any complaints will be too little, too late.  Once they figure out the logistics, it will happen.  Then, I suspect there may be a few VRs from Linemen who'd rather look for work civvie side (pehaps in the very position that were taken from them.)  Then, we will still be short numbers and nothing and they will try something else
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 29, 2008, 12:45:00
Linemen, will not be in the field.

They will be in Brigades working on the heavy stuff. The Line specific stuff.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Xcalibar on June 29, 2008, 14:48:45
That is what I meant.  I'll be more specific next time.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 29, 2008, 15:10:29
Seen.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISTech227 on July 02, 2008, 13:40:15
From my understanding (which is basically from the briefing, and mutterings going on), the QL3 will be common for all trades.  Some period after your 3's you will be tapped for either of the sub-trades or to remain as an Op.  It was unclear if people were going to have the choice or whether they would be told where they were going.  After you were selected for your sub-trade, you would then commence a 4's package for that specific trade.  Then everyone would be back together again for the 5's, with the subs continuing on with a sub component.  At any rate, that's how it was explained to me.

I also heard that the linemen will be taking over the PBX from the techs... but I'm not sure if that's true or not.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on July 02, 2008, 14:50:28
As far as what I understand, you will be selected for a specialty based on past experience/training from your 'OJT' and personal preferance.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 02, 2008, 14:51:48
...with the overriding factor likely being 'needs of the Service' thrown in there...

 ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on July 02, 2008, 14:53:03
So does the split for SigOps between radio and IT has been confirmed yet? And when will existing members be able to put in their preferences?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on July 02, 2008, 15:13:10
Yes, the split is confirmed.
As for the second question, I am not 100% on that. Personal preference and past experience is considered though.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on July 02, 2008, 15:26:52
What kind of postings are available for IT? Just D troop?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on July 02, 2008, 15:46:12
What kind of postings are available for IT? Just D troop?

You lost me there..
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PteBloggins on July 03, 2008, 22:30:24
Well ... PteBloggins here ... just thought it was time to chime in ...

One thing I think everyone is overlooking is the amount of recuits who will not sign up based on the merger.... I have a 10year background in Computers(networking/repair stuff) and I guarantee that if my recruiter told me I had to be an operator first, I would have either up and left or gone AVS.

Also I assure you that as a private LCIS currently I will VR if they want me to retrain as an OP... it's not what I signed my contract for... this may sound kind of sandbox behaviour, but its the facts, I signed up for a career as a tech and then I got to basic and heard the 'soldier first' motto.

This old story where recruiters promise all these great things and soon as you sign "POOF" it all changes is getting old fast.

ok end of vent session...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 03, 2008, 22:36:21
My college diploma in the same field comes in quite handy for me as an Operator. I think it was stated before that if you're already trained, you get grandfathered in, unless you want to OT.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on July 03, 2008, 22:40:45
I signed up for a career as a tech and then I got to basic and heard the 'soldier first' motto.


So what ?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GAP on July 03, 2008, 23:02:50
There is not an Armed Force out there where personnel are not "Soldier First". The likelyhood of some having to use the basic skills taught are unlikely in a lot of cases, but it still applies to everybody...why is this such a revelation at this point?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: oinkoink69 on July 04, 2008, 11:04:14
Comment removed as it was purely trolling.

This is a warning to cease and desist comments like this one.  Three rebuttals below this one also removed as they were simply troll food.

Harris - Milnet Staff
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on July 21, 2008, 22:09:58

 As a civvy on the outside still awaiting my thumbs up on BMQ at St Jean, I am looking at the prospect of being herded into the Sig Op field simply due to understaffing and attrition. But with the sounds of the changes going on and people already in training are the chances of getting placed in Sig Op still high for someone like me yet to hit BMQ ?

 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on July 21, 2008, 22:26:50
Well it's happening. Had someone posted in, WO called him into the office asked if he wanted to go line, guy says yes. Off he goes to the line det awaiting next lineman course. He was a sigop btw.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on July 21, 2008, 22:35:56

 Wow, hold that spot i'll there in ummm close to a year...  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: radop215 on September 18, 2008, 14:43:52
I just read some paperwork on this, and they are looking at turning the static positions into civvi contractors (commcens, line, pbx .....) and moving those pers into field units as  the sig ops and lcis are undermanned.   this would bolster the field force for deployments and the like.  dont know what they plan on doing on maintaining skill sets though...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on September 18, 2008, 15:02:03
I just read some paperwork on this, and they are looking at turning the static positions into civvi contractors (commcens, line, pbx .....) and moving those pers into field units as  the sig ops and lcis are undermanned.   this would bolster the field force for deployments and the like.  dont know what they plan on doing on maintaining skill sets though...


 I'm still civvy awaiting thumbs up for BMQ, but was offered SigOp, how will or does this affect me or will i notice anything by the time i get through to the end job?


Cheers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: radop215 on September 18, 2008, 16:01:35
you wont notice anything, its still pretty uncommon for a private to go static off his 3s.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 18, 2008, 16:49:28
I just read some paperwork on this, and they are looking at turning the static positions into civvi contractors (commcens, line, pbx .....) and moving those pers into field units as  the sig ops and lcis are undermanned.   this would bolster the field force for deployments and the like.  dont know what they plan on doing on maintaining skill sets though...

Just what we need...more civies running the show.  If you don't think it f**ks it up, try a posting to MARLANT N6...you'll see.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on September 19, 2008, 07:47:08

 I'm still civvy awaiting thumbs up for BMQ, but was offered SigOp, how will or does this affect me or will i notice anything by the time i get through to the end job?


Cheers.

You won't notice anything different, as it will all be different to you. You will probably (most likely) be posted to a Sig Sqn or the Regt. The only difference is the carreer path that will be open to you that was not available to us that joined years ago.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 052 on October 04, 2008, 21:00:48
I just read some paperwork on this, and they are looking at turning the static positions into civvi contractors (commcens, line, pbx .....) and moving those pers into field units as  the sig ops and lcis are undermanned.   this would bolster the field force for deployments and the like.  dont know what they plan on doing on maintaining skill sets though...

we had an information group with the trade brass and he said it was in the works. at work we are getting surveys on different stuff (if we would stay in, why, if) things like that. the wheels are moving and everyone in field units soon. i wonder why because im in a field unit and work with static when were not on exercise. but overseas its all static work... so wont I be losing so much experience considering i would not be working with equipment i have seen since my 3's or 5's?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jimmy67 on October 06, 2008, 00:34:21
I have a funny feeling this is going to come back and bite the C&E branch in the a**...

Guess who is going to apply for all these shiny new DND public service jobs? It will be the uniformed incumbents, who are already fully trained and security cleared. And they will get them, as they are the most qualified, and have the inside track on the hiring process. It is already happening where I work. It will cause a huge bleed-off of experience when 45 year old Sgt Bloggins gets told "sorry about your luck (and your house, and your spouse's job, etc), you are going back to Pet again", and he looks at his CM and replies "actually no, I just won the PS competition for my present job as a civvy, so here is my release. Have a nice life..." Multiply this by hundreds of cases, ranging in rank from Cpl to CWO and it will make FRP look like a small blip...

And until the issues of spec pay and mobility between sub trades are clarified, it will be very difficult to get bodies to stay in the non-tech side of the house.

If this branch wants to retain people, it is going to have to start holding out some carrot, instead of stick... Anyone's thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on October 07, 2008, 07:44:59
I have a funny feeling this is going to come back and bite the C&E branch in the a**...

Guess who is going to apply for all these shiny new DND public service jobs? It will be the uniformed incumbents, who are already fully trained and security cleared. And they will get them, as they are the most qualified, and have the inside track on the hiring process. It is already happening where I work.

YES!! I might move higher on the merit list!! There is hope for me  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jimmy67 on October 07, 2008, 11:42:49
Hope it's worth it when you end up as IC of a 1-man det... ;D

All kidding aside, I think what concerns me most is this whole amalgamation plan was bulldozed through so fast, and with so little input from the people it affects. For the new kids, it will be business as usual, and the "new normal". How it will affect those of us with 10+ years of service is not being discussed at all... Why the secrecy?

As previous posters have mentioned, shouldn't the Air Force's experiences with trade amalgamation tell us something (not to mention the Radop/Telop and Fin/Admin fiascoes)? And as far as replacing a lot of IM Gp pers with civilian PS employees or contracters, it is nothing but ASD in sheep's clothing, and we know how well it has worked in other parts of the mil organization...   ::)

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: pstrois on October 08, 2008, 22:59:46
Alright, I have a few mindsets on this topic , and a few questions aswell.
Im a Lineman On OJT right now doing Line maintnance on Base borden

The amalgamation will probably bump the climbing portion of the course, since it is not very much used anymore.. the currently trained lineman will be able to perform the task if needed,  (altho we will get caught with our pants down if all the lineman civi out)  Right.
The priority is not climbing poles tho. At least I think:)

Secondly, If My Lineman 3's start in January 09.. Probly the last  Lineman course.. What will happen to us? Will we simply be grandfathered, and get the Lcis, Sig training on our 4's and be glad we are lineman's

I would like to know, What makes me wanna stay in and not VR right now or OT..

Thanks! :salute:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 052 on October 08, 2008, 23:25:58
stay in. it will be good for you if your part of the last course

as for climbing, im at a HQ&Sigs sqn and i climb alot. theres poles all around the sector. i just got back from wainwright and we recabled the whole thing. that was massive climbing and so many 'static' things to be done.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: pstrois on October 09, 2008, 19:13:52
Exellent thanks for the advise,

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Maraduer on October 21, 2008, 14:08:03
Im glad I retired when I did, It was bad enough being redesignated a Sig Op 215 and loosing our MOC211. we werent able to make cop jokes anymore. Now being redesignated again.  This is modern progress for you. Next they will amalgamate Infantry into our trade or something along that line, or maybe techs will be joined with ops to be one trade ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on October 21, 2008, 15:02:01
Im glad I retired when I did, It was bad enough being redesignated a Sig Op 215 and loosing our MOC211. we werent able to make cop jokes anymore. Now being redesignated again.  This is modern progress for you. Next they will amalgamate Infantry into our trade or something along that line, or maybe techs will be joined with ops to be one trade ;D

Yeah, that's the funny part. Techs and Ops are being amalgamated as I stated in the original post. LCIS Techs, Sig Ops and Lineman will basically be the same trade eventually. Where you will specialize in a given field depending on you're training after you're 3's and any previous knowledge or natural aptitude for a given field like IS/IT or fixing things or climbing poles.

 ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on October 26, 2008, 01:03:28
I have a funny feeling this is going to come back and bite the C&E branch in the a**...

Guess who is going to apply for all these shiny new DND public service jobs? It will be the uniformed incumbents, who are already fully trained and security cleared. And they will get them, as they are the most qualified, and have the inside track on the hiring process. It is already happening where I work. It will cause a huge bleed-off of experience when 45 year old Sgt Bloggins gets told "sorry about your luck (and your house, and your spouse's job, etc), you are going back to Pet again", and he looks at his CM and replies "actually no, I just won the PS competition for my present job as a civvy, so here is my release. Have a nice life..." Multiply this by hundreds of cases, ranging in rank from Cpl to CWO and it will make FRP look like a small blip...

And until the issues of spec pay and mobility between sub trades are clarified, it will be very difficult to get bodies to stay in the non-tech side of the house.

If this branch wants to retain people, it is going to have to start holding out some carrot, instead of stick... Anyone's thoughts on this?

Yup - I'd be willing to bet that Calian is ironing out a plan as we speak to iron out how they'll lock down such a huge bid for pers with such qualifications. 

Listen up ladies and gents, get yourself into Resume class and dig out that UER for some content.  The grass on the other side could be looking pretty green very soon.

P.S. - I'm enjoying the color of the grass on the other side right now.   ;D

Bin
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Niteshade on November 13, 2008, 23:32:02
I was chatting it up with a sigop Cpl. at my local CFRC who said that this amalgamation stuff was news to him. His thought is this is not going to happen.

Just food for thought...

Nites
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 13, 2008, 23:37:26
I saw the letter from the CLS directing it will happen a year ago.  Its happening.  That was during a Branch brief from the Col and Branch CWO.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ada on November 13, 2008, 23:41:48
Would this have any effect on those of us trying to get in as a SIG Officer?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 14, 2008, 00:01:38
No, it will not directly affect the Sig O trade itself.

It will affect those who you are in charge of though.  Morale issues are sure to spin out of this...IMO.  As I am not Green sigs I won't comment on the working aspects of it (capabilities increase/decrease, etc).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on November 14, 2008, 00:06:43

 I'm curious if this is mainly to concentrate on the training aspects(amalgamating) or the end jobs themselves?


Cheers
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ada on November 14, 2008, 00:09:04
As I am not Green sigs I won't comment on the working aspects of it (capabilities increase/decrease, etc).

Can you tell me what this means?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 14, 2008, 00:10:47
Can you tell me what this means?

When they amalgamate the trades, the way business is done will change somewhat.  I am not sure what will be the positive and negative changes, as I am Air Force C & E right now, not army C & E.  Current capabilities could be improved in some areas, and diminished in other areas (in terms of skill sets, capabilities, man power, ORBATs, etc).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ada on November 14, 2008, 00:38:55
Ok thanks....makes total sense now ;)  Do you work with any CELE Officers?  That's my second choice...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 14, 2008, 00:43:06
Ok thanks....makes total sense now ;)  Do you work with any CELE Officers?  That's my second choice...

Yes, I do.  On the Wing, the WTISSO is a CELE Capt, and we have several CELEs waiting for the CELE crse at 1 Sqn doing OJT here as well.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ada on November 14, 2008, 00:47:20
Yes, I do.  On the Wing, the WTISSO is a CELE Capt, and we have several CELEs waiting for the CELE crse at 1 Sqn doing OJT here as well.

Awesome...I'll have to keep you in mind if I need any info on that side of things (if you don't mind) ;)  I'll leave this thread back on topic now...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 14, 2008, 01:19:32
I was chatting it up with a sigop Cpl. at my local CFRC who said that this amalgamation stuff was news to him. His thought is this is not going to happen.

Just food for thought...

Nites

Funny. Had an O group point passed down that we'll see the first amalgamated QL3's come through before the end of 2009.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jimmy67 on November 15, 2008, 09:15:38
  According to my chief, and the CWO of IM Group, it's happening... We had a briefing ref this and they made no bones about it. I figure this is pretty solid since IM Gp will be the most affected by all this (the majority of the non-field postings on the block for replacement by civilians belong to them). I say this because I see the replacement of these positions by civvies and the pending trade amalgamation as as closely linked, and part of the same plan (to transform green sigs pers into a field only trade).

  The feeling in the higher levels is that it will be easier to plug in pers to the areas most short of personnel (we all know which one that is :) if they can be "streamed" upon recruitment, probably regardless of the member's wishes. Once the member has completed basic training, it will be very difficult to leave if they do not like where they are "streamed"...

As in "abracadabra, you joined to be a tech, but you're now a sig op!"...

What you will have in effect is one "super-trade", but not everyone will get the same benefits (ie spec pay). Not on, in my book, and sounds like moving deck chairs to me. You might as well just leave things as they are, with 3 separate trades. This move will do nothing but p**** people off IMHO...

I repeat, this my opinion only. Your mileage may differ ;D

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on November 15, 2008, 10:14:47
From what I heard yesterday it will be a while until they start to replace all the static postings with civilians, not for another couple of years. Did anyone hear anything else about sig ops split between field and IT?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Shoto on November 15, 2008, 11:14:39
Hey guys, EXCELLENT post. Thanks for your effort in writting it.

I has a question. I just graduated from BMQ this week (hooray), my trade is LCIS tech. Now, I LOVE computers, that was the part of joining the army I signed up for. I wanted to work on computer systems and repair them, maybe get in to the GPS and such. I wanted "LCIS" tech.

Now I find out, that there is a good chance I'll be a Sigs Op? That sucks, I really really really don't want to go Sig or Line.

I guess my question is, what exactly will happen to me? I'm sort of in the middle of all this and heard so much different stuff!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2008, 12:22:03
First courses are supposed to be run for the ACCIS in 2009, so if you finish your courses before then, you'll be grandfathered. Keep in mind though, the new trade may have SigOps doing a lot of the tech support end, leaving LCIS trades at 2nd line working on circuit boards. It's all really up in the air, I wouldn't worry about it too much. There will always be the opportunity for you to switch into the right subtrade if you get stuck in the trap.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 15, 2008, 13:45:41
From what I heard yesterday it will be a while until they start to replace all the static postings with civilians, not for another couple of years. Did anyone hear anything else about sig ops split between field and IT?

IIRC, this initiative is called Replace The Soldier.  The email I have at work states it will start this coming APS (2009).  Not a few years from now.  The email was written by one of the Sn Officers behind this, a Sig O, LCol who's lastname initials are V V.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on November 15, 2008, 13:50:58

 That don't sound too promising for someone headed into Sig's to get replaced by civvies before even getting through BMQ :/

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on November 15, 2008, 14:00:46
The intent of the program is to replace Sig's folks that are in static, non-field positions to field positions, not to reduce the # of Sigs pers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2008, 14:01:50
That don't sound too promising for someone headed into Sig's to get replaced by civvies before even getting through BMQ :/

It's good and bad. What it means is that the static positions, jobs such as running base servers, setting up cell phones, etc, that you have at the base Comm Sqns, will be filled by civillians, allowing the Sigs to go to more field oriented positions.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Snafu-Bar on November 15, 2008, 14:03:47

 Ok that makes sense, those with combat training are better put to use and those with the tech xp get the static positions as civvy contracts.

 Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on November 16, 2008, 00:28:12
Coming from a briefing from a Col of an ASG, they put in memo to a General, voicing concerns about how it's done. Basically having misgivings about people on category, IR, compassionate and people in critical positions. People who are fit and due for postings will be posted to field positions but a lot of things are still left to hammer out. With the amalgamation coming, not a lot of things are clear. Will have career manager briefing soon and a meeting and will try to find out more. But from what I heard in Kingston while on course is that JSR will be the main IT place and the brigades be more Tac Rad. New QL5s for Sig Ops are coming as well, more focus on CP setup. Many things are still in the air and haven't been cleared up yet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bintheredunthat-Muzzled on November 18, 2008, 22:01:38
FYI - anyone on the way out.....the Coast Guard is hiring.   ;D  True story.

PM for details if anyone is interested in taking their pension to another gov't gig.

Bin
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on February 14, 2009, 14:15:26
Career managers are saying not to hold your breath on this happening anytime soon. Looks like its sliding to the right...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 14, 2009, 17:09:02
From the Master of Signals, the CLS wants the first Common QL3 course run April 2010.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on February 14, 2009, 17:23:01
signalsguy, do you mean the amalgamation or the movement and replacement of personnel from static to field? Career manager told me the amalgamation will be happening soon.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on February 14, 2009, 17:40:58
The impression I got was that the amalgamation was going to happen on sched, everything else won't. I am not holding my breath on this one. I went to one of the briefings and CWO Symes and CWO Hohmann didn't have any realistic answers - they don't know how to make it work. Its easy to throw up some slides and make pie in the sky statements...

Besides, if you've seen the latest numbers we've got way bigger problems - they can't recruit for LCIS and Sig Op.

And moving people from static to field, thats been going on for the past few years. IM Group has been giving up positions to other orgs and elements since at least 06. Theres been a lot of talk about stopping 'accomodation' of injured folk but what I'm seeing now is that they need to hang on to anyone with a pulse to fill all of the static jobs that aren't easily civilianized.

meni0n, do you think JSR is still a viable org at this time? I know a few pri 1 places that are gagging for people. Scale JSR down (recreate 79 Comm Regt?) and increase the size of the brigade units, maybe make them into Bn size elements with tactical, satcom and IT companies. Redistribute the rest of the positions to other orgs - CANSOFCOM for example.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on February 14, 2009, 19:13:05
For the static positions being eliminated, right now it's on hold because there is no plan and a lot of issues to be resolved. As for JSR, I couldn't tell you as I've never been posted there, but from the presentation we got on our fives this summer and from talking to people who are from JSR, they are short people as well. Those guys deploy frequently, some for longer times some for shorter but it seems that the sig op trade is really short of personnel everywhere and with the talk of a split between rad op and IS it will make it more confusing. There are just a lot more questions than answers out there right now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Scone on February 15, 2009, 20:51:50
I can tell you for sure JSR is short on people.
My hubby is due to return from a TAV in Afghanistan next week. He only got back from tour in June, and is already slated for 3/09.
They recently had on guy (brand new father of 2 weeks) go over on a 2 month TAV and had to ask him to stay because one guy for the next roto dagged red the last minute, and they don't have any backups.

Part of the trouble with the LCIS shortage there (as I understand it) is that they alway had LCIS and ATIS techs there, but since JSR went back to the army, all the ATIS are being posted out, and only LCIS are being posted in.

I think JSR is PRI 2 for postings.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on February 19, 2009, 21:09:29
Recently I attended the CM briefs for ATIS/LCIS/Sig Op/Linemen and the word from the respective "green" C & E CMs was that the amalgamation was put off a year but would be going forward.

FWIW...all of the above mentioned MOCs are red and, according to the CMs...not looking good in the next few years, with the exceptiono of Linemen.  The Linemen CM said he is going to be "green +" WRT to TES/PML and there will be NO retention offers after the APS.

Just what I heard from the Herd.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on February 25, 2009, 22:09:05
I recently attended the MES briefing and I think this is a great initiative. There are so many reasons our current trade structures are not working. Recruiting, retention, job satisfaction etc. Let's face it, what we have now is not working out very well. To quote Doc Phil, "how is it working for you"? Well it isn't. The current Op Tempo is burning out our Signallers. I think this new structure will allow us to evolve, as technology is evolving. Having a single entry point to the Signals trades will make the decision at the recruiting centers that much more easy. Sure, it may take a couple of years before you will be a lineman or technician if that is what you want, but so what! Nothing wrong with being a Soldier/Signaller when you first start out, gives you a good base for the rest of your career. Be thankful we are not the British Army, you would be in the infantry for 3 years before being considered for Signals. For the record, it is my understanding the new trade will be called;

ACISS - Army Communications and Information Systems Specialist.

The sub occupations for Cpl - Sgt;

CST- Communication System Technologist
IST - Information Systems Technologist
LST - Line Systems Technologist

The sub occupation for Sgt -WO

CITSM - Communications and Information Technology Systems Manager.


Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 25, 2009, 23:29:49
MES isn't helping our recruiting. The Master of Signals was recently told by new PATs waiting their QL3 that some were told Lineman won't exist in a few years, SigOp is closed, etc etc. The recruiting system needs to be pushing our trades and get some people in the door. Maybe MES will help, but right now it seems like a whole lot of ideas that don't have a solid implementation plan.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on February 26, 2009, 21:24:08
The CST and IST are confusing me, which one is the sigop and which one is the lcis? Another question, how is the POET going to work for people selected for the lcis positions? Is that going to be the QL4 ? Open Circuit, are the rumours also true about the sigop trade branching out as well, between IT and radio?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on February 27, 2009, 08:56:32
meni0n, as I understand it the during the 1st phase of the restructure the current LCIS will be placed in either the CST or IST. As well the currrent Sigops will either be placed in the ACISS core or the IST. The ACISS core will be your typical Sigop duties while IST is the IS support and maintenance. I think they are looking at providing POET to all the sub trades, CST, IST and LST. Not sure how it will be incorporated but I would think it would be like a TQ4 or an entry level course once selected for one of the sub trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on February 27, 2009, 09:40:03
So current sigops looking to go IST will have to take POET then. I wonder what kind of postings will be available for that subtrade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on February 27, 2009, 09:55:01
Postings should be no differernt then they are now, the jobs are being done now by Sigops and LCIS and will continue to be done by IST. Nothing changes.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on March 04, 2009, 21:32:22
I recently attended the MES briefing and I think this is a great initiative.

Great how?  By turning a bunch of specialists into Mediocre tradesmen?  The only trade this is good for is the Sig Ops and leaves those who like their current trade nothing to look forward to past Sgt, some retention strategy.  Become a Sigs Tp WO?  Run a CP?  Blah!  MES is nothing more that an initiative to save the sinking ship that is the Sig Op trade by stealing troops from those of us who are healthy.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on March 05, 2009, 10:03:43
I think you need to educate yourself more on the new structure. The sub occupations of CST, IST and LST (for definitions see previous thread) will train to the same level or higher that they are currently being trained. At the WO/MWO rank (Technology Managers) the same opportunities will exist, linked to their sub occupations. Yes, if you desire you may be considered for a Tp WO position, could be a Tp of CST, IST or LST. I am sure you have WOs employed in your occupation now, may or may not call them Tp WOs but the supervisory role remains the same. As a tradesman, you should appreciate the ability to operate the equipment you are maintaining, be it radios, telephones or computers. A little bit more education and experience never hurt anyone.

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, or the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to Change.
Charles Darwin

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 05, 2009, 11:02:51
Great how?  By turning a bunch of specialists into Mediocre tradesmen?  The only trade this is good for is the Sig Ops and leaves those who like their current trade nothing to look forward to past Sgt, some retention strategy.  Become a Sigs Tp WO?  Run a CP?  Blah!  MES is nothing more that an initiative to save the sinking ship that is the Sig Op trade by stealing troops from those of us who are healthy.

Cheers,

You could always get your trade to opt out of MES and therefore opt yourself out of the possibility of spec pay. I won't even get into the ridiculousness of the rest of your statement, as I prefer to respect other trades based on the unique skills they bring to the battlefield, and not call out a trade as a "sinking ship".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on March 05, 2009, 14:15:55
I wish I lived in the same rose coloured world that Open Cct occupies, we will still be slaves to the Mangler's shop, since when did you ever have a choice?  As for the "sinking ship" comment, it refers to manning not skill sets or personalities, don't get all bent out of shape by reading ill will into this.  Nobody asked us what we wanted and I am entitled to my opinion, I enjoy my job as it is, why would the chance of Spec Pay make me love a dumb idea?  Ask the Air force how trade amalgamation worked for them.  Since this is a done deal, I will just have to wait and see how it all works out, doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.  I hope I'm wrong and it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread, but, somehow I doubt that will be the case.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on March 12, 2009, 20:38:57
Swingline, FWIW I think you're spot on. This is going to be very bad. I'm pretty sure its being driven forward because certain people have invested too much into it... they don't want to fail. When it all fails anyway, they'll be long gone...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on March 17, 2009, 10:50:28
All the more reason to get informed. I suspect you were not involved in the survey, there was one. During the briefing I had, it was mentioned we could send up our concerns and recommendations through the chain of command. We have an opportunity to influence the process. Simply complaining will not help. We have all been taught if you have a problem, propose a solution! You can either be part of the solution or you can be part of the problem - your choice!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on March 18, 2009, 08:47:10
Are you in the marketing department for this project (you're not doing a very good job)?  It is hard to be as "informed" as you would like me to be if the info is not readily available to everyone.  As for the CoC they know even less, as I have already engaged them on this issue.  I would really like to know what part/level of the military you are in where project managers actually listen to your specific recommendations, or ask for your input, on these types of high level projects that get poured out on us like so much boiling oil from the ramparts of the Ivory tower.  I'm glad you're so invested, it gives me someone to blame when it all comes crashing down.   :salute:

Cheers,
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on March 20, 2009, 09:49:48
I think it is just a job save project for the Sig Ops too.
At the MES brief I went to, there was a CWO representing LCIS, Line and Sig Ops....
Who did all of the talking....The Sig Op Chief....
The LCIS and Line Chiefs never said a word.
It just made me feel that perhaps they were not in agreement with what was being implemented (My personal opinion).

I do hope it all works out in the end, and I will do my job regardless, I just hope that we LCIS and Line guys do not get hosed.

I take a lot of pride in being an LCIS Tech and I know the Line guys and Sigs do too.

Was it like this when they did away with Teletype ops/techs?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on March 20, 2009, 13:46:33
BigDaddyFatback - as an LCIS Tech myself, I too enjoy being a technician. Our trade by the way is identified as a distressed trade. So to say the MES initiative is only meant to save the Sig Ops is not entirely accurate, this will also help save the our trade. We will be called something different but at the end of the day we will continue to be techncians. I also lived through the several amalgamations we have had in the past, like when the Tel Techs became LCIS Techs. I can tell you this plan seems to be more viable then the plan they had back then. I am sure they have learned form previous experiences in order to adopt them to this new structure. I need to stress here, this is not an amalgamation but a restructure. There will continue to be Operators, Techncians and lineman, although they will be called something different (ACISS, CST, IST, LST) and will belong to a corp occupation. I am curious, what would you propose to ensure we have a strong, techncially viable trade in the future? How would you deal with the lack of recruiting and retention? How would you deal with an overlap of responsibilies (Operators and techncians doing the same IS function) while being paid differently. I hear a lot of nay-sayers about this restructure but have not heard of any brilliant ideas on how to address our current problems! Do you think we should keep the status quo? Can we continue to put bandaids on our ability to sustain ourselves? Technology is evolving, time to change to remain relevant or get out of the way for someone or somthing that will be.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 20, 2009, 14:14:25
The whole restructure is going to be FUBAR for the next few years, it is with any large change initiative. Long term? Probably will sort out some of the major issues including getting boots on the ground where they are needed. I can see the Linemen side of view, heck I'd be up in arms if my trade was 100% manned, why rock the boat when its obviously working for your end? I really can't forsee the Line trade changing in anything but name when MES finally goes through, or at least from the briefings I've been given. LCIS and SigOp are the real trades affected by the restructure, and it will take us a lot of time to get things right. OC is right when he (my apologies if you are a she, profile doesn't state) says there is a lot of duplication of effort going on in the technical side and we need to sort that out. Giving us more trade options can probably assist in retention, especially if troops are given a choice based not just on technical ability but what they want to do. I have a college diploma for computer networking, but I love working in TacRad. Placing people into jobs they do not want to do (within reason, some people just whine) is what can kill a trade very easily.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MOOXE on April 08, 2009, 18:07:21
Its hard to see anyone getting hosed in this deal. I have never seen very much esprit du corps within sigs for anyone in any of the trades to be particularly disturbed about whats happening. The jobs that we are doing right now are still the jobs we need getting done year after year. Its really just another way to train the new folks and send them off to thier respective postings. I am not even sure its worth debating for us.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Xcalibar on May 01, 2009, 05:29:55
So, can someone tell me if I'm a ACISS OP yet, or still just a Sig Op?  From the briefing I had back in December, this was supposed to go in effect in April 09.  Out here on the Left Coast, I hear precious little of what is going on in the C&E world.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on May 01, 2009, 13:28:53
Your still a Sig Op.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on May 01, 2009, 16:47:41
  Out here on the Left Coast, I hear precious little of what is going on in the C&E world.

Even out on the left coast, you have access to EMAA and all your trade information.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Xcalibar on June 21, 2009, 02:27:55
Even out on the left coast, you have access to EMAA and all your trade information.

I figured as much.  I just wanted to be sure.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 21, 2009, 11:35:36
We should start a pool to see if there will be an announcement that the MES project is going to be stopped, or if it'll just fade to prevent some hurt feelings...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on June 21, 2009, 14:04:26
I got 5$ that it will eventually be implemented but be a huge headache.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Feelix on September 11, 2009, 19:23:50
I'd like to know if we have new informations about this amalgamation... When the first troop will start ???
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on September 11, 2009, 19:28:23
The details still being worked out at the Army level. The CLS has yet to formally sign off on it, however we at CFSCE are anticipating the first crse to begin some time in FY 2010.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: HeadLamp on September 11, 2009, 19:53:13
 So does that mean all the 3's courses that got pushed back to December 4th are still only the 5(6?) month variants of the course? We had a few guys that had October 09-10 on their course loading sheets and we figured it meant the course got lengthened for this amalgamation. Unfortunately no real info is passed our way so we're just hearing rumours right now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on September 11, 2009, 20:39:26
Read my previous post again.
Are you reg or reserve?
No changes to Reg Sig Op Apprentice crses until summer 2010 at the earliest.
You have to have SQ and Dvr wheel before showing up for your crse here, that would explain the change in training time.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Feelix on September 12, 2009, 19:54:31
my QL3 are supposed to start on november 2... (french course) if they don't change the date again and again lol...

Do i still expecting those date with the old system... or they will push the date and wait till the almagation will be ready ???
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: HeadLamp on September 12, 2009, 20:27:27
Read my previous post again.
Are you reg or reserve?
No changes to Reg Sig Op Apprentice crses until summer 2010 at the earliest.
You have to have SQ and Dvr wheel before showing up for your crse here, that would explain the change in training time.

 Good to know. I'm Reg force and am already SQ and Dvr wheel qualified. Our understanding is we're going to be going to Kingston for PAT and just wait around for a few months until the Dec. 4th course. 

 It must have just been an error in the systems here when the other guys got the year long course printed on their list. Either way a lot of people were unhappy with the push back and "supposed" extension of the course, so this information that it hasn't been approved yet will be well received I'm sure.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Feelix on September 12, 2009, 20:31:46
as long as i know about the Kingston PAT Plattoon... everyone from PRETC are supposed to take their way to Kingston on October 2... but like army still army... this have time to chance so many time before it will happen... but i'd like to hear from you guy who maybe have more up to date information about all this...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on September 12, 2009, 20:53:12
You'll find out when you get here.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Wright on October 22, 2009, 11:24:38
Parts of this make sense to me, at least the the LCIS-Sig Op bridge...

I've had problems (And some extremely good experiences, they're not all terrible) in the past with LCIS techs conducting 1st line repairs, one particular pair in Kingston comes to mind, who spent a full 10 hours "diganosing" my truck, before finally at a conclusion which matched exactly what I had told them was wrong and what to repair from the very beginning, a little bit of experience operating the equipment you're going to fix is going to be huge asset in the long run...

Other benefit, having the operators able to perform first line maintenance would be a huge boon as well. Doesn't take a great deal of skill or training to teach somone to conduct basic soldering repairs of connectors, to swap out cards, or replace a HUB.

The major DOWNSIDE I see to this? Skill fade. Train people too broadly, they'll forget whatever they don't use on a regular basis, and they'll loose it, but that's a forces wide problem anyway, training up to our necks, and not enough opportunity to get skilled.

Changing a hub, card etc is not first line. i am consistently seeing this in alot of threads on here. First line is finding out what specific piece of kit is not working, and swapping it for one that does. the tech or QM should have access to a replacment item for that setup.

repairing that particular kit is second line, the tech, or QM should have access to the spare radios and equipment needed, it is more likely that they will bring a full NAU or RAU into an ex/op before they bring a static bag sealed card or a crap load of cards that are sealed.
third line, component level,

currently now, majority of what i see( not saying this is CF wide at all) is with green kit(yes i rarely see it no longer in a tac rad shop) but, when i did see it, the operators knew what kit was causing the trouble, or they suspected. and brought that kit to us for a serv test. we would test it, 9/10 times they were right.
 back on track,
as for this MES, we were told (around june) that anyone 5's qualified would not be affected (tech side), and yes there was no definitive answers on Spec, Although they did hint at they were trying to get it for all trades, however it was up to some other government agency to grant it, and that there would be possibly more training required to justify it to that agency.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Open Circuit on October 22, 2009, 18:21:50
Just to clarify, levels of maint are outlined in the permissive repair schedules. You should read them. There is a difference between levels of maint and lines of maint. For example a first line unit  can conduct 1st and 2nd level maint on a specific type of equipment. Second and third line units typically conduct 2nd and 3rd levels of  maint.

Just thought you should know.....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mojo Magnum on November 30, 2009, 18:27:52


I normally try to stay upbeat and positive with my posts online, but I was subjected to the atrocity that was the Mes brief the other day. 
I can get past the Frenglish (even when they make up words by jamming two similar words together to make a new one, and then use said attempt at a new word as the headline for their slide as was witnessed at the career managers brief), and I can get past the strange recurring nightmare that has two perfectly literate and well spoken English pers standing back while the "barely able to speak English" pers attempts to carry the entire brief on their own. 
It was difficult however to ignore how many senior members in the audience were equally annoyed by the complete lack of usefull information.  Big points to the presenter for thinking on his feet and laying down a good rap about his intent, not that it resembles what is and what will be.  I'm pretty sure we all came away with no new info whatsoever, aside from the clearly stated response to the question, "Will we earn spec pay?",  that was a definite "I don't know, it's not my job to decide that." 

My little anglophone pitty party aside, I was moved by the endorsement of the CO that he had known the man for fifteen years and that he really DID know what he was doing.

But I digress...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCIS-Tech on December 24, 2009, 13:08:13
I am going to weigh in here, since there appears to be a lot of inaccurate and misleading info floating around on this and other threads.

First and foremost: This IS happening. on 1 Jan 2011 all Linemen, Sig Ops and LCIS Techs will become part of the ACISS Trade (ARMY Communications and Information Systems Specialist). There are no if, ands, or buts about it. So we had best put on a brave face, and learn to smile with a mouth full of it if we don;t like it. All C&E Trades (with the sole exception of the Linemen) are hurting, number-wise. This is a fact. Talking with a Chief from recruiting, he says that part of our problem is that (from my Trade perspective: LCIS) the job is boring. While I disagree to a certain extent, I admit that the job does not have the "macho, glorious, and tough-guy" image that a trade like Infantry has (which, by coincidence is about 600 pers over strength). The MES (Military Employment Structure) or as some have called it: The Son of MOSART, is an opportunity to directly deal with those manning shortfalls, and ensure that we all have a common framework and information background. It will allow us to all do our respective jobs BETTER.

As far as Spec Pay goes (since I know that this is something that is near and dear to the hearts of the LCIS Techs out there: While it is ultimately up to Treasury Board to determine who gets what, it is hoped that the ENTIRE Trade (including sub-occupations) will recieve Spec Pay. Furthermore, those of us who are WO and above will actually be called Army Communications Technology Managers. Rumor has it that they are going to approach Treasury Board and try to get THOSE pers Spec TWO.

I have some other information as well, but I would suggest that you all meet up with and ask your Senior NCOs for some more detailed information regarding this subject. The Army Foreman sent out a Powerpoint presentation to the Area Foremen just before the start of Christmas Leave, and there is a little bit of new information in there. Ask about it, and remember: It IS going to happen. This is a done deal. Lets all make the best of it, and hope that we avoid the problems that were created when they amalgamated the Radar, Tel, Rad, and TE Tech Trades back in 1996.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 11, 2010, 07:52:02
Can you digress some more on the role of the technology manager...is it suppose to be synthetic...

Would the LCIS Tech be more reoriented to second line maintenance if the sig op takes over basic first op maintenance...is there alot of outsourcing to civie companies in the 3rd line and overhauling-static repair area in the LCIS tech's "world"...

thanks
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on January 11, 2010, 08:13:19
It would interesting to see how that plays out, as it seems they want to have a general Manager sub occupation that can be put into any of the three roles. But, if the person was more exposed to let`s say sigop side of the job and then goes to this general manager, I don`t see how he`ll be able to fill a SME spot at a organization that focuses more on 2nd line maintenance. Perhaps these Army Communications Technology Managers will have their own sub occupations as well?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 11, 2010, 08:25:30
Apparently there's suppose to be "common phase" training in both QL3 and QL5 before the MOC's begin to branch off...but Im not sure how it would work at the manager level...unless they have some interface concept  connecting all the sub-occupations upward and downward continuously into the technology manager role...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on January 11, 2010, 08:40:04
I know there are common phases but they also want people to specialize in one of the three sub occupations. So even though a person is going to have a decent knowledge of the three trades, he is still going to be a SME in the sub occupation he specialized.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2010, 08:49:15
At the Sgt level, the sub-occupations are supposed to merge back together, and said Sgt can be employed to supervise in any of the 4 sub-occupations. The courses become common again at that point.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on January 11, 2010, 09:38:22
Puck, that seems logical but will that person be able to fill in as a SME for all three sub occupations? What if he specialized in Line but has to fill in a Chief Comm Op position. Will he have enough knowledge to do the job well.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2010, 19:16:04
That's a training issue at the QL6a and QL7 level. As a Sgt Supervisor, you need to know less about the minute details and more how to manage people. As of right now, SigOps don't even have a specialized course on how to be a CCO, we just learn how to write CEOIs on the 6A and jump into a posting position as a WO/MWO.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 13, 2010, 08:48:59
At the Sgt level, the sub-occupations are supposed to merge back together, and said Sgt can be employed to supervise in any of the 4 sub-occupations. The courses become common again at that point.

The 3 sub occupations (Line, Tech, IS guy) don't merge into CISTM until WO.  WARNING!!! PERSONAL OPINION ONLY:  I would have to believe that until the "super" Sigs start making their way up to that level that the wise men positions would be grandfathered to the sub occupation stream upon which they are based (w/ exceptions I'm sure).

Puck, that seems logical but will that person be able to fill in as a SME for all three sub occupations? What if he specialized in Line but has to fill in a Chief Comm Op position. Will he have enough knowledge to do the job well.

The position of CCO is tied to the ACISS core occupation and is not a role of the CISTM.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 16, 2010, 13:06:39
What if your not chosen for tech(even if youre enrolling as an LCIS Tech) and you dont want to be a sig op or lineman...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on January 16, 2010, 13:18:08
What if your not chosen for tech(even if youre enrolling as an LCIS Tech) and you dont want to be a sig op or lineman...
Then you don't put down any other trade choices besides LCIS Tech.  If you're not chosen, then I guess you don't get in.

You really need to get yourself to a recruiting centre.   ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 16, 2010, 13:21:45
Then you don't put down any other trade choices besides LCIS Tech.  If you're not chosen, then I guess you don't get in.

You really need to get yourself to a recruiting centre.   ::)

He means under the new trade structure, Moe....not under the old. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on January 16, 2010, 13:23:24
He means under the new trade structure, Moe....not under the old.
Oops, my bad.    :-\   Don't join then.  Seems like this is the way the trade is going.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 16, 2010, 13:37:04
Just so we're clear on this
The initial writing board has finished. There is another one happening in the near future. The TP isn't even written yet either, so NO ONE has any idea yet how this whole ACCIS scheme will look in it's final form.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 16, 2010, 14:04:45
What if your not chosen for tech(even if youre enrolling as an LCIS Tech) and you dont want to be a sig op or lineman...

You can Occupational Transfer between the elements. Keep in mind that if you're going to be slotted based on your abilities and the needs of the trade. I hardly see you having a problem with being a Tech, they're in as bad shape as SigOp is. All the new folks will end up streamed that way I bet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 16, 2010, 17:08:03
LCIS Tech was the only trade I interviewed for and found suitable...but im entering unskilled with no electronics background...how difficult would it be to CT to Comm Research Operator if one is not chosen as a tech or completely OT to another branch...Considering the timelines I may be among the first batch of ACISS NCM's; but I dont want to be enrolling as an LCIS Tech and end up as something else....That would suck....would they force you to stay in the C and E branch...Or if I wasnt chosen for LCIS tech I would rather OT right out of the C and E branch into some other tech or engineering trade...

Will there be an ACISS officer as well or will it remain Sig Officer...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on January 16, 2010, 17:24:11
Aside from any School/Branch directives or policies, doing an Occupational transfer in your case would likely go as follows:

1.  You fail the MOC trg and would likely go to see a PSO (Personnel Selection Officer) and have to pick from a list of trades that have opening from the Reassignment List (published monthly IIRC), of course your CFAT scores would affect what ones you might qualify for.

2.  You haven't completed your QL3 yet and are somewhere between BMQ-QL3 qualified.  You would submit a request for MOC reassignment BEFORE you were QL3 qualified and submit if up your CoC.  It would be reviewed by the proper authorities (PSO, DMCA, Career Manager shop, etc) and be approved/denied.  This would be in accordance with CFA0 11-12 Occupation Transfer of NCM - Regular Force.

3.  You complete 48 months of service, have a QL5 qualficiation level, and apply for one of the Occupation Transfer programs (COTP, VOT) again IAW CFA0 11-12.

4.  You don't like any of those options, and do not enrol, or put in a VR before completing trg, again it would go thru your CoC and a decision would be made.

I'll say this...you are making a judgement on the work of an LCIS Tech and SigOP without having done, or even *seen*, that work at this point in time.  Both those trades, to some extent, work together to achieve a common goal; communications for the unit(s) they support.

Keep an open mind.  You may find that if you ended up on the *tech* side, you wish you were on the Operator side.  But you'll never know until you get there.  I thought I was going to like my last MOC ( a tech trade) and I didn't once I got there.  I wasted mine and the CFs time and money.

Don't shut your eyes to any aspects of the C & E branch, thats my advice.  Something drew you to it in the first place, right?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 16, 2010, 17:31:10
Yes I was drawn by LCIS Tech..but if the whole C and E branch is undergoind osmosis it makes it all the more fascinating...but thats why I asked if the technology manager was a synthetic position...Would it be possible for one to move between tech and operator under the new ACISS framework or would one have to wait until the tech manager position...

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 16, 2010, 17:40:05
As I said before, it remains to be seen how ACCIS will develop. No one can say with any accuracy how the selections for what trade will be determined.
 The timeline for this has been pushed way the the right.
Before you commit to any trade, make sure its what you want...really want, because if you change your mind during any point in your training you will most likely find yourself rotting on PAT platoon for quite some time before any change in your status is processed
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 16, 2010, 18:19:28
Yes I was drawn by LCIS Tech..but if the whole C and E branch is undergoind osmosis

It's not the whole C&E branch.  ATIS Tech and Comm Research are not involved with MES. 

(Some might add in a "Thank %deity%!" after that statement)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 16, 2010, 19:40:06
ok thanks...I know I want LCIS tech...I have spent some time researching almost every aspect of the trade and Im fascinated by it as a profession in the CF...It had all the mixes I wanted in a trade...Hopefully, I wont encounter any problems during training.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Hull.Down on January 17, 2010, 02:04:57
When will this take place?

For example will Sig Ops/Linemen/LCIS techs be effected by this now or in 1 year or 2?

Or will this transition take place in as little as a few months.

Also, will this amalgamation happen in the regulars more so in the reserves? I can imagine how the reserves might have a problem combining all three especially with the current budget issues across Canada and the lack of instruction/experience to make all three trades into one viable.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Michael O'Leary on January 17, 2010, 02:09:22
When will this take place?

For example will Sig Ops/Linemen/LCIS techs be effected by this now or in 1 year or 2?

Or will this transition take place in as little as a few months.

Also, will this amalgamation happen in the regulars more so in the reserves? I can imagine how the reserves might have a problem combining all three especially with the current budget issues across Canada and the lack of instruction/experience to make all three trades into one viable.

It would appear from Reply #144 that the details are still being worked out:

Just so we're clear on this
The initial writing board has finished. There is another one happening in the near future. The TP isn't even written yet either, so NO ONE has any idea yet how this whole ACCIS scheme will look in it's final form.

It may be some time before anyone can answer your questions with certainty.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 17, 2010, 10:40:18
It may be some time before anyone can answer your questions with certainty.

I certainly hope not  :o.  The school starts teaching ACCIS this summer, and with the amalgamation happening 1 Jan 11, someone must have a clue as to how it will be implemented (the CoC has been terrible at getting the info out; the MES briefings left more questions than answers).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 17, 2010, 12:00:53
I have a feeling once the TP is hammered out, then we'll find out the implementation plan. There's no sense in building a plan to put people places, unless they know exactly what each course and each sub occ is going to learn at the school. You'd be putting the cart before the horse.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 17, 2010, 12:14:42
Puckchaser is right of course.  I am looking forward to see what will be done for conversion training etc., especially for those of us who are not as well rounded as should be required to be a CISTM.  I'm still not convinced that this is the right solution, and I am still trying to figure out how it will solve retention issues, but have resigned myself to see how it will pan out (not like I have a choice  ;D).  This grasshopper has realized he will need to put on a brave face and have patience to survive the process.  Deep...slow...breathes...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 17, 2010, 13:42:30
Swing:
So far there are no firm timelines that CFSCE will initially be switching to ACCIS. Like I said before the TP hasn't een been written yet. CTC hasn't blessed it, and I would say it's a very safe bet that ACCIS will not be implimented until late fall/winter of this year.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on January 18, 2010, 23:37:50
Also, will this amalgamation happen in the regulars more so in the reserves?

The 73 Comm Gp CO stated that the timeline, as of 3 months ago, was for MES to be implemented one year after the reg force had done so. While the reg force timeline has been pushed to the right, this may still be a valid guideline.

In any event, amalgamation will come to the reserves.

Quote from:
I can imagine how the reserves might have a problem combining all three especially with the current budget issues across Canada and the lack of instruction/experience to make all three trades into one viable.

There are reservists, linemen, and even a handful of techs in the reserves, though that's an area where CFSCE would need to draw on reg force and Calian. I do know a fully-reserve-trained LCIS MCpl still on the books in my unit collecting spec pay. There certainly are reservist sig ops who've done IS work on class B.

The potential instructor pool exists.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Hull.Down on January 18, 2010, 23:54:12
The 73 Comm Gp CO stated that the timeline, as of 3 months ago, was for MES to be implemented one year after the reg force had done so. While the reg force timeline has been pushed to the right, this may still be a valid guideline.

In any event, amalgamation will come to the reserves.

There are reservists, linemen, and even a handful of techs in the reserves, though that's an area where CFSCE would need to draw on reg force and Calian. I do know a fully-reserve-trained LCIS MCpl still on the books in my unit collecting spec pay. There certainly are reservist sig ops who've done IS work on class B.

The potential instructor pool exists.

Thanks for the reply. Hopefully, I like the LCIS/lineman part of the job.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 20, 2010, 11:34:44
Would you have to do linemans work as part of the common phase like climbing poles and things like that...Do current LCIS Techs repair line at all....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 20, 2010, 17:01:54
Would you have to do linemans work as part of the common phase like climbing poles and things like that...Do current LCIS Techs repair line at all....

There's 11 pages of information just in this thread. There are people who are in the effected trade's who don't know whats completely going to happen yet, but you want to know before you've even been enrolled? I'm sure you've been told already, but I'll mention it again. Set your mind to "Receive" instead of "Transmit". You'll find its a lot easier to pick up information about the trade you want to join when you're not asking the same questions over and over and over.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 21, 2010, 01:17:28
Well I liked to know if Im gonna have to do linemans work because Im not too keen on climbing poles...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 21, 2010, 08:40:00
Well I liked to know if Im gonna have to do linemans work because Im not too keen on climbing poles...

Then you won't.  The amalgamation does not get rid of the primary occupations it only makes them sub-occupations of one larger trade.  I can tell you for certain that you won't climb anything (if they made it a qualification to be an ACCIS then they would lose 20% of candidates on the first day the climbing portion started).  As you've already stated you are not interested in it (which the MWOs at the MES brief said would be one factor considered when putting you in your stream) and based on an apparent fear of heights are obviously unsuited for it.  Being a danger to yourself and others while working aloft does not a Lineman make.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on January 21, 2010, 16:58:06
im not afraid of heights i used to work in the roofing industry i just dont want to climb poles..
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on January 21, 2010, 18:52:37
i just dont want to climb poles..

If you are straight, thats not usualy an issue.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rigger052 on January 21, 2010, 19:03:44
Not really an issue, trying to force an unwilling candidate to climb would be dangerous at best.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 21, 2010, 21:31:01
im not afraid of heights i used to work in the roofing industry i just dont want to climb poles..

 :-\????????  What an odd thing to say.  Seeing as "climbing poles" is only about 2% of the workload and the other 98% has nothing at all to do with them I would suggest that perhaps you don't actually know what a Lineman in the Canadian Forces does.  I've spent plenty of my career not climbing poles, in fact I didn't even see a telephone pole today (most likely because I wasn't looking).  Go be a gizmo guy if you will, for my part, I will continue to enjoy building your infrastructure.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on February 18, 2010, 01:51:41
:-\????????  What an odd thing to say.  Seeing as "climbing poles" is only about 2% of the workload and the other 98% has nothing at all to do with them I would suggest that perhaps you don't actually know what a Lineman in the Canadian Forces does.  I've spent plenty of my career not climbing poles, in fact I didn't even see a telephone pole today (most likely because I wasn't looking).  Go be a gizmo guy if you will, for my part, I will continue to enjoy building your infrastructure.

Not entirely correct, a few years in Gagenam brought that "2%" substantially higher, but I digress. At least in Wx, tracks aren't rolling 'back' guys consistantly (with the new poleline) but I suppose the training isn't the same as the cold war standard coupled with the stance on ecology (damn tracks :rage:). It shall be interesting to see the implementation of the amalgamation, I even heard a rumour that the PRes was going to be the lead out (not a very good test bed IMO, due to the irregularity of training value that will need to be monitored after the fact). At least I'll continue with "Once a Lineman, always a Lineman" :warstory:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on February 18, 2010, 02:41:18
It shall be interesting to see the implementation of the amalgamation, I even heard a rumour that the PRes was going to be the lead out (not a very good test bed IMO, due to the irregularity of training value that will need to be monitored after the fact).

Ouch.

Is that rumour from after the 73 Comm Gp CO and RSM dropped by 745 and were commenting on it? (October-ish?) Last I heard was we were supposed to be following their lead one summer after regforce did it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on February 18, 2010, 13:04:19
Is that rumour from after the 73 Comm Gp CO and RSM dropped by 745 and were commenting on it? (October-ish?) Last I heard was we were supposed to be following their lead one summer after regforce did it.

I'm not sure about the units but isn't 73  the one that was supposed to try the OSG route?(and the CO..... wouldn't that be Comd?) It looks as if there are many changes happening on the militia side of the house.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rigger052 on February 18, 2010, 18:46:42
From what I hear there are supposed to be many changes, but there are a lot of concerns about how the new trg is going to impact the comm reserve wrt retention. The progression from basic private to qualified tradesman is going to take a lot longer than what it once did, but to be fair, this is only based on conversations I've had with old friends in 72.

Pole line hasn't slowed much here in Gage either.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 18, 2010, 20:58:43
Not entirely correct, a few years in Gagenam brought that "2%" substantially higher, but I digress.

Not to get all "mathy", but over an average 20 yr career where you spend (give or take) 10 yrs as a Jr NCO (worker bee) you would need to spend 4 (40%) of that 10 up a telephone pole to achieve the aforementioned 2%, thus it is hard to believe that you could possibly exceed that and still have working knees especially taking into account tower work, ladders and (for those qualified) the occasional fall out of a plane/helo (not to mention the sub-standard line boots we were issued for years)....but I digress, as this is the part where you roll your eyes  ::) and throw rocks at my head  ;D.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on February 18, 2010, 22:10:57
Saw the new course on CFSCE course calendar starting in 2011, it looks like it's about 3 and a half months.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on February 21, 2010, 16:00:30
Is there a "threshold of knowledge" exam before an LCIS Tech begins his-her basic MOC training in order to see whether the individual can proceed...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on February 21, 2010, 18:31:23
Is there a "threshold of knowledge" exam before an LCIS Tech begins his-her basic MOC training in order to see whether the individual can proceed...

Yes.  It's called CFAT.  Is there something you've read to make you believe there's something else?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 21, 2010, 18:53:17
Tsokman, i thought that you would have learned. As i've told you in another post, don't sweat what you haven't got to yet. If you are in St.Jean and have been enroled as an LCIS Tech then don't worry about your QL3, just your POET.  If you haven't made it out of the CFRC and have written your CFAT then just concentrate on what you are qualified to proceed with. Other wise just read what is posted and forget about typing, it is just getting you in trouble.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on February 21, 2010, 21:20:56
I read there were such tests for other trades I was wondering if that was the case for LCIS Tech...thanks...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on February 22, 2010, 11:11:19
If you qualify for LCIS on the CFAT an you are enrolled as an LCIS Tech than you just have to pass your courses.. BMQ, SQ, POET and QL3.  There are no special tests in the recruiting process for LCIS Tech like there is for other trades ie Pilot, MP, etc.

Are you currently in the recruiting process? If so don't you ask them any questions or just save them all for us?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on February 22, 2010, 13:35:54
I'm not sure about the units but isn't 73  the one that was supposed to try the OSG route?

Yes, which was what the initial spiel was about when he addressed us. He asked for questions, and iirc, nearly all of the questions pertained to the amalgamation.

Quote from:
(and the CO..... wouldn't that be Comd?)

Probably. About the only person I've ever interacted with from 73 Comm GP outside of that discussion is MCpl Barnes.

Quote from:
It looks as if there are many changes happening on the militia side of the house.

And I'm pretty damned skeptical about them being thought-through for the reserves. I'm hoping that somebody has a coherent plan for how it's going to work for the reserves, rather than just implement it as some sort of afterthought.

With things not panning out to plan with reg force and their amalgamation timeline, I'd be pleasantly surprised if the reservist school's on top of things, is ready to implement first, and things go relatively smoothly.

If that means the only reservist trade is going to be sig op, so be it. But expecting a reservist lineman to effectively become a 3's-qualified sig op over the course of two 2-month courses before getting any substantial lineman training along the lines of the current trade course series seems pretty ridiculous to me. And that's the impression that I'm getting.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on February 22, 2010, 13:50:20
Yes I finished the recruiting process just waiting for a decision for LCIS Tech.  Actually it was recommended to me that I try to connect with LCIS Techs on Army forums by my recruiter as hes not an LCIS Tech specialist. So apparently there are no such pre-course testing for LCIS Tech like there are for other trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on February 22, 2010, 14:40:25
Yes I finished the recruiting process just waiting for a decision for LCIS Tech.  Actually it was recommended to me that I try to connect with LCIS Techs on Army forums by my recruiter as hes not an LCIS Tech specialist. So apparently there are no such pre-course testing for LCIS Tech like there are for other trades.

You are getting dangerously close to being muted.

Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Hull.Down on February 23, 2010, 01:32:36
And I'm pretty damned skeptical about them being thought-through for the reserves. I'm hoping that somebody has a coherent plan for how it's going to work for the reserves, rather than just implement it as some sort of afterthought.

With things not panning out to plan with reg force and their amalgamation timeline, I'd be pleasantly surprised if the reservist school's on top of things, is ready to implement first, and things go relatively smoothly.

If that means the only reservist trade is going to be sig op, so be it. But expecting a reservist lineman to effectively become a 3's-qualified sig op over the course of two 2-month courses before getting any substantial lineman training along the lines of the current trade course series seems pretty ridiculous to me. And that's the impression that I'm getting.

In our Reserve comm unit this is the last year to get your Mod 1 and Mod 2 under the old system otherwise it will be the new course next year.

Course material for the new course is currently being written in our unit I have been told.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Cooldevil789 on February 24, 2010, 08:44:19
Hello,

I am currently in Gagetown and sitting on a holding troop. I am currently looking at a Occupational transfer to Sigs(Lineman) I have a few years background experience in the CATV working as a Cable Technician for Rogers Cable. I am currently unhappy with my original choice due to ignorance on my part. I was unaware the duties my current postion would entail.

I am looking for knowledgeable advice on how one would go about doing a proper occupational transfer and the steps needed to do so.

Feel free to send me a PM with the information, or reply here.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on February 24, 2010, 09:04:10
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,44.0.html
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on February 26, 2010, 17:18:59
Hello,

I am currently in Gagetown and sitting on a holding troop. I am currently looking at a Occupational transfer to Sigs(Lineman) I have a few years background experience in the CATV working as a Cable Technician for Rogers Cable. I am currently unhappy with my original choice due to ignorance on my part. I was unaware the duties my current postion would entail.

I am looking for knowledgeable advice on how one would go about doing a proper occupational transfer and the steps needed to do so.

Feel free to send me a PM with the information, or reply here.

You best be quick about it, lest the 'Amalgamutt' catch you, then no choice for occupation.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 26, 2010, 21:39:29
You best be quick about it, lest the 'Amalgamutt' catch you, then no choice for occupation.

Last I heard that was one of the issues they were still trying to sort out due to the whole "qualified to the same level in 18 mos" deal.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on March 04, 2010, 06:30:48
Bah! It's easy to train these fresh young minds to find themselves and the betterment of the Signals world in 18 months. The operator attrition will never figure in to ensuring the 'best' go into their respective discipline. :P
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 16, 2010, 18:54:29
And what would the terms of service be under ACISS if you're being enrolled with the old system..would it be specifically for LCIS Tech or for Signals Branch in general...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on March 16, 2010, 19:49:25
At this time it doesn't seem ACISS is ready to go. Once the terms have been identified and outlined, I'm sure a new thread on this subject will surface. Right now it's still being worked out, so if you are entering the training system in the near future you will likely get to hear more of the scuttlebutt while at the school.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 17, 2010, 06:06:38
You best be quick about it, lest the 'Amalgamutt' catch you, then no choice for occupation.

You mean even if you score very high on POET you could still end up as a Sig Op...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on March 17, 2010, 14:14:45
Yep, Sig Op is an exceptionally high attrition rate trade (no idea why). That is the primary misgiving viewed by the other trades affected. Line stays green due to the high number of CA trades remustering into it, so getting fresh off the street troops doesn't seem very likely. Due to the entry requirments for LCIS and the need for that trade, I'm sure those with the high end apptitude will find their way into POET and such.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 17, 2010, 14:41:27
.... Due to the entry requirments for LCIS and the need for that trade, I'm sure those with the high end apptitude will find their way into POET and such.

Except for the fact that those who would otherwise be interested in LCIS will be taking a long, hard look at ATIS before agreeing to be trained as a Sig Op on their 3's, with lip service to technician training, before they even have the possibility of getting some decent OJT in their field of interest.

LCIS may not be getting a great deal out of the cookiecutter either.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 17, 2010, 15:19:24
The whole amalgamation is a stupid idea, designed to halfheartedly address the manning issues with LCIS and SigOp. I'm sure there are far better and easier ways to make both of those trades attractive. Just as much as someone doesn't want to be pushed into a SubOcc, I don't want to have to lead troops that don't want to be there. This is going to further divide the C&E trades along party lines, instead of unifying them. Oh well, I bet someone got a promotion for this in Ottawa.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on March 17, 2010, 15:31:13
Agreed, look at CFJSR. A good thing for all involved minus 1 Line Troop.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 17, 2010, 19:29:37
What are the chances of transferring after completing POET to another POET based trade if one doesn't get LCIS Tech...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 17, 2010, 19:40:14
Ok, for the last time, I'll offer this advice: Wait until you're done your basic. You aren't in yet, you won't be in anytime soon, or even close to CFSCE to start working about the Amalgamation.

I really hope you don't get posted to my unit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 17, 2010, 19:47:42
Why should I not worry and be forced to be in a trade I don't want to be in for 5 years of my initial armed forces career.....I can hear the toilet flushing.....I hope I get posted to combat arms support..Is that your unit...:)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on March 17, 2010, 19:53:18
You are alienating yourself on this site you do know that right?

If you get recruited in as a LCIS Tech, you may get to stay, but guess what no one can give you hard info as to what is going to happen as none of us know, an ACISS hasn't happened yet.  If you are so worried about it, go ATIS Tech(Air Force).   What is Combat Arms support? You mean you want to be posted to a Combat Arms unit?   Also, I second PuckChaser, I hope you don't end up getting posted to my unit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on March 17, 2010, 21:06:28
If you are so worried about it, go ATIS Tech(Air Force).   

Ah, no....sorry, they're closed.  Too many people...wayyyyy too many people.  They're stacking them like firewood.  They had a spot but it filled this morning...yeah, that's it.  :whistle:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 17, 2010, 21:24:22
If its possible I would got boxed in, Id prefer enrolling as a different trade so I want to know before hand what my options are.   If I'm not posted to your unit you'll be kicking less ***. :) This will be the last post on this topic from me until an ACISS thread is started. Thanks.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 17, 2010, 21:27:41
What are the chances of transferring after completing POET to another POET based trade if one doesn't get LCIS Tech...

What are the chances you realize how irritating your constant Woe is me if I don't get LCIS/ what's going on with techs/ blah blah blah ???

You've been told.

The trade is changing. Not everyone has all the details, and as of now, a lot of the specifics are hazy. Deal with it.

If tech is the route you want to go, fine. Follow the established process, and once a new process is finalized, follow that one. However, be aware, that yes, you may not get that specific sub-occupation, specialty, whatever they're calling it.

Most of us already IN the signals world don't have all the answers, so how can we answer yours? Talk to your bloody recruiters.

And sorry you have to learn this the hard way, but things change, and we don't all get what we want.

As far as postings, hopes and dreams are nice, but you'll get posted where you get posted, and that's a long ways off.

I realize the whole "this is my future, and I want to know" argument is there, but once again, if it's that important to you, talk to your bloody recruiters.

If you don't get the answers you want, or can't accept the uncertainty with your chosen career path, then once again....talk to your bloody recruiters... this time about other trade options.

And unlike the others, I can't wait for you to get to my unit  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on March 17, 2010, 21:33:32
Let's give him a new name..."Red Herring" seems to be appropriate.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 17, 2010, 21:45:25
On a more related note, the new School RSM is posted in from Ottawa. Did a little Outlook intelligence gathering, he's currently the ACISS SME.... sounds like someone at least has the right idea, send the people that know what the double u tee f is going on to start the new "trade" off right. Or at least right in Ottawa's eyes.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on March 18, 2010, 08:52:23
If its possible I would got boxed in, Id prefer enrolling as a different trade so I want to know before hand what my options are.   If I'm not posted to your unit you'll be kicking less ***. :) This will be the last post on this topic from me until an ACISS thread is started. Thanks.

You should go Int.  You'd make a fantastic PsyOps weapon.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on March 18, 2010, 09:50:30
tsokman, if you want to know in the future how your life is going to be every second of every day, don't join the CF.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: tsokman on March 18, 2010, 13:44:58
haha I do eventually see Int as a possible future trade.  Ive wanted to be a professional soldier since I was a little kid so I wont get dissuaded by anything...Just that if I didnt get LCIS Tech I'd be dissapointed.

I can't wait to get to your unit either are you part of the welcoming committee...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on March 18, 2010, 14:22:09
tsokman, one thing you should remember about the Military, especially as you will be a Pte Recuit sometime in the future.. start learning to follow direction and keep your mouth shut.  You don't have to post/say every little thought that pops up in your head and get all worked up over small details. And you've been told a number of times not to sweat the small things and to post less and read more.

And yea, Beadwindow is part of the welcome commitee, he will smother you with hugs and kissers and cuddle you in the field.  :D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 18, 2010, 14:31:36
And yea, Beadwindow is part of the welcome commitee, he will smother you with hugs and kissers and cuddle you in the field.  :D

Yeah, that's me...I'll hand you your welcome wagon basket with jams and cookies, hold your hand as you clear in. It's because I'm all sunshine, rainbows, and puppies....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jimmy67 on March 27, 2010, 13:33:44
I was chatting with the CFSCE RSM in the smoke pit yesterday, and heard an interesting tidbit...

Apparently there are plans in the works to OT approximately 1200 combat arms into the Sigs branch, as there is a glut of combat arms in the recruiting system. I guess it might count as "rumor mill", but I would consider the source fairly reliable ;D

Anyone else hear anything about this? Opinions?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 27, 2010, 13:39:50
SVOT Program just opened up via CANFORGEN, allowing Infanteers with certain experiences levels transfer to about 10 or so Red trades without competition or OUTCAPs. LCIS and SigOp were on the list. Perhaps thats what the RSM was referring to.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 27, 2010, 13:40:20
I was chatting with the CFSCE RSM in the smoke pit yesterday, and heard an interesting tidbit...

Apparently there are plans in the works to OT approximately 1200 combat arms into the Sigs branch, as there is a glut of combat arms in the recruiting system. I guess it might count as "rumor mill", but I would consider the source fairly reliable ;D

Anyone else hear anything about this? Opinions?

CANFORGEN 060/10 CMP 026/10 051349Z MAR 10
ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE SPECIAL VOLUNTARY OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM (SVOTP) FOR 00010 INFMN

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,92450.msg914977.html#msg914977

One of the lines in the CANFORGEN ;
Quote
CONCURRENT WITH THE SVOTP, THE ARMY SIGNALS ATTRACTION TEAM (ASAT) WILL VISIT INFANTRY UNITS TO PROMOTE THE OCCUPATIONS OPEN WITHIN THIS BRANCH

I didn't know we had an "Army Signals Attraction Team", but I also hadn't heard any target numbers how many we were hoping to get out of the SVOTP
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on April 04, 2010, 22:30:29
I've seen and read that canforgen.  I, too, did not realise we had such a group as the ASAT running around.  The Sig Op / Rad Op trade needs all the it can get, however, having been following this thread in particular and listening closely to the jungle drums around work the the C & E branch I do not believe for a minute that this amalgamation is going to solve any of our manning issues.
I was chatting with the CFSCE RSM in the smoke pit yesterday, and heard an interesting tidbit...

Apparently there are plans in the works to OT approximately 1200 combat arms into the Sigs branch, as there is a glut of combat arms in the recruiting system. I guess it might count as "rumor mill", but I would consider the source fairly reliable ;D

Anyone else hear anything about this? Opinions?
While having 1,200 new troops in the trade would be nice, again, it won't solve the problem.  Who's going to train them? comes to mind.  I wish I had the answer but I don't. Not right now anyway.  I can see attrition outstriping recruitment and training when folks get stuck in a trade / employment that they hadn't bargained for, and pull pin at the end of their first BE and leave with a very bitter feeling thinking they were misled or outright lied to by recruiters. (I don't believe that our recruiters would do this by the way, they do the best they can with the info and resources that they have).

Some ones Paisley Sky dream world is going to take a huge hit when it runs smack dab into reality when this thingshacks out in the next 1 - 3 years.

But that's just my Opinion, I could (very well may) be wrong.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on April 06, 2010, 13:47:47
So despite the impending doom of the trade amalgamation, no one seems to know what's happening... at least in my chain of command...

I'm fed up with being a sig-op (reserve) and am looking into changing my trade to line. It will however be at least a year and a half before I have time to do a apprentice course...

So any thoughts on my best bet now? I'm open to wild speculation... do I request the OT, change to line, and wait? Do I wait till the trade amalgamation and hope I can move over to the line training stream (Can't see them agreeing to that, I'm already QL5)? If I do change to line, and they decide to turf the reserve line trade, will they honour my former sig op quals? Doing a QL3 course in the new combine trade is NOT an option, unless it will lead  to specializing in line, and even then, not overly interested in that route.

Remaining as sig-op permanently is not an option, I'm no longer interested in being a sig op, though in the short term, I'm willing to to sit tight. Just looking for thoughts.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 06, 2010, 13:55:34
I believe technical skills have an "expiry" date of 5 years, so if you were to revert to SigOp in that time period, you wouldn't have to do the courses over again.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on April 06, 2010, 14:29:02

I'm fed up with being a sig-op (reserve) and am looking into changing my trade to line.

You neither get stupid-drunk enough, nor are you dirty enough, to qualify to be a lineman. In addition to that, your spelling is too good.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on April 06, 2010, 14:37:47
I think "a sig op" just proved one of my points.
So despite the impending doom of the trade amalgamation, no one seems to know what's happening... at least in my chain of command...

I'm fed up with being a sig-op (reserve) and am looking into changing my trade to line.

Remaining as sig-op permanently is not an option, I'm no longer interested in being a sig op, though in the short term, I'm willing to to sit tight. Just looking for thoughts.


Until the powers that be look for the underling reasons / causes for this type of outlook, in a few years the infection will spread to the other two trades getting sucked into this vortex.

I'm too far gone to worry about it anymore.  I will be staying in the nice little world or Tac Rad that I'm in.  The one nice thing about knowing that any career I may have had has reached its peak.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on April 06, 2010, 15:36:52
Flat out lies from our recruiter did it for me... I was told if I spent a few years as a sig-op, I could transfer to LCIS tech... this may have been true at some point, but unfortunately, I joined very shortly after the LCIS trade was removed from the reserves... I don't even mind some aspects of the trade, but spending too much time in a CP complex has done me in...

And Beadwindow 7 you're quite right, nor do my knuckles reach the ground when standing upright, and if it weren't for the fact I like my unit, and I like the people I work with, I'd be exploring much wider trade options (MESO is an option, but but I'm allergic to sea men), but I get along quite well with the guys in the line shack, plus climbing, pole construction, confined space entry, etc, are handy skills in my line civillian employment.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 06, 2010, 17:12:35
I don't even mind some aspects of the trade, but spending too much time in a CP complex has done me in...

You're in a reserve unit.... thats what they do. In the fulltime world, there's a heck of a lot more stuff to do. Still could be an LCIS tech, this ACCIS thing might be your ticket to that world in the CommRes.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on April 06, 2010, 21:13:05
I just wrote a rather lengthy letter in response to what I felt was an insult, however, I've deleted it after realising you probably didn't mean it as an insult.

I've worked with the reg force, I'm well aware of the extent of our trade. It's all still operator level work. It doesn't interest me. Particularly, spending the last two years in a rather sprawing CP complex has made me feel like little more then a kitchen attendent.

I'm done with being a signals operator. I also have no further interest in being an LCIS tech. So if anyone has any thoughts on how to best go about switching to line, given the impending trade change, would be happy to hear.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rigger052 on April 06, 2010, 21:27:26
  To Sig op

   You can try switching over to line on the PRES side of the house, although to be fair you will face obstacles there. As you are in a comm res unit you should inquire as to the state of the QL3 package, as I'm not sure if it takes two years or three now to get your full QL3 trg complete. Also the line sect in your unit will have to have a vacant spot that you can fill, so check there as well. While pole line construction and antenna rigging are taught on your course, as a class A reservist you might not have any opportunity to do so.

   Hopefully your investigations go well, if you have any concerns contact the LCF (senior lineman) in your unit, I can give you some info but all my time in trade has been in the reg's. Good luck.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on April 06, 2010, 21:43:44
I'm already intimately familiar with the trade, and our local line section, that's not a problem, but no one locally seems to know where the line trade is headed, reserve side, with the amalgamation.

Then only real obstacle now is whether or not the CO will accept my OT. However, his options are accept my OT or accept the fact I will be finding a new unit, so I imagine it will result in me leaving the sig op trade regardless.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rigger052 on April 06, 2010, 22:09:07
The writing boards for the courses themselves are still in progress so everything is still on a watch and shoot basis. Good luck with your OT 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jimmy67 on April 06, 2010, 23:25:09
Interesting to hear the ideas about what we should be teaching this new, twenty-five hat wearing, happy family of super-communicators... I am sure some will be offended by what is below, but oh well...

We are being fished for opinons and input as I speak, to try and make some sense of this mess, but I don't hold much hope... Despite the fact that a large majority of those I am on course with (6A) come from backgrounds other than tac rad (including myself), CFSCE seems to still think we are in 1981, sitting in the woods of Germany, getting ready to fight Ivan. I see little change in ideas from my TQ3 so many moons ago, but technology and the battlefield has changed beyond all recognition. The only ideas we seem to have adopted are more and more crushing, corporate-style paperwork. The training and recruiting side of the house has seen the new technology coming for years but done nothing. Why?

If anything, we are becoming MORE specialized, not less, and we should be creating new trades, not shoving trades together to try and solve manning problems. Until we fix the perceived issues that keep people from wanting to be sig ops, no amount of deck chair shifting, verbal semantics, or negative incentives will solve the problem.

Until those of us who do other work besides sitting in green trucks, or working in CPs are taken seriously and valued as tradesmen, nothing will change, and meeting PML will be a pipe dream...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 07, 2010, 00:12:31
The SigOp 6A course is fairly useless, unless you're just looking for a check in the box. I took mine last year, and we were told they weren't touching it until the new trade came in. A month of briefings from SMEs (some read a canned powerpoint) from units and technologies we may not ever see, with a final field ex to site a Bde CP does not a Sgt make. Shoving linemen and LCIS kicking and screaming with us won't solve anything. I think you hit the nail on the head, when you said we need to specialize. Make sub-trades of SigOp that you don't have to OT to move between if you don't want to be a CP Guy/IT Tech/Etc anymore.

"You can do a lot of stuff" just isn't a great recruiting tagline.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on May 05, 2010, 12:04:48
So, I must admit, and doubly apologize that shortly after I wrote the first post in this thread, I went AWOL from army.ca basically...  :-[

Nonetheless, I've been doing some catching up reading through bits and pieces on here of the 15 pages...

I have no new info... All I've heard/known first hand, is that some Sig Op Sgt's, MCpl's etc, from my unit (1 Sigs CFB Edmonton) and other units in LFWA have been going to Kingston at different intervals to put thier .5Cent into the new 'trade' training, specifically the 3's and 5's. I'm also loaded onto my 5's coming this June, and apparently it's a 'new and improved' 5's with a distance learning package etc... Will report on how new and improved it might be... Haven't heard rave reviews, but I need to get the course under my belt no matter what obviously! So off to the centre of excellence for me.

Keep any 1st hand knowledge of the amalgamutt coming folks!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mikhail on May 12, 2010, 11:00:32
This amalgamation makes researching careers very interesting. In the civvie world I have a lot of time-in doing roughly equivalent Lineman, LCIS, and Sig Ops stuff as well as project and department management. Over the last 25 years in Tech I have had a chance do a lot of cool stuff, and now hope to bring these skills to the CF. I am already finding it 'interesting' to pick one of these 3 career paths, based on prior civilian experience( a recruiter should be able to help here)... and now there is more choices in the works?.... hmm... I suppose that may make it easier.  :-\

Has any of the new trades 'sub classes' info gotten to recruitment centers yet? Would I be wasting recruitment's time by asking? Or should I just put off CT'ing to Reg Force till this is resolved. I am currently Res Force, and wanting to CT/OT NOW but do not wish to waste the CFs time with making a bad initial career choice based on changing info, and/or CTing to Reg, and being in some way disappointed with the choices available upon amalgamation resolution.

If this question is better served in a recruitment forum, my bad... please relocate it as the MODs see fit.

I have been lurking and reading till my eyes have dried up, and now thought I would try a first post.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 14, 2010, 19:59:08
The F of S just gave us a PowerPoint printout of the tentative MES structure and career paths for each of the Sub Occ.'s and DP levels. What it looks like to me, is that LCIS got split between fixing army kit/radars/satcom (CST) and administrating/installing/troubleshooting computer networks (IST). LST is just a renamed Lineman trade. Core ACCIS looks like what SigOps do now, minus working with "computer" stuff (including NCCIS), which has been given to the IST sub occupation.

During a discussion between the Sigs we had on ground (SigOps and LCIS), bunfights were already starting to develop. This MES thing is going to be far easier for the new Ptes in the system to digest, than to the old hats who are of the mind that when it comes to the results we produce "if it ain't broke, why fix it".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on May 14, 2010, 20:05:07
Puck, so for anyone who would want to go the IST route, they'll have to do POET?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on May 14, 2010, 22:22:42
The last power point I saw (which was just sent this week from the MES Manager ahead of a briefing we will receive in June) stated that the Sig Op trade will be roughly divided in half to fill both the core ACCIS and IST positions.  Also, I don't remember that any of the slides which illustrated the core skills required/Development Periods (DPs) included POET, even for CST...I will, however, confirm that when I get back to work on Monday.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 14, 2010, 22:40:59
I didn't see POET on the slides, and I think Swingline and I both have the same set. If there was a POET component, and its not on the slides, it'll be watered down and place into the ACCIS core DP1 course, so wherever you get streamed, you have an electronics theory base.

SigOp split in half makes sense, since JSR is mostly NCCIS and that job skillset is moving to IST. So as it looks now, if you don't want to go to JSR below the rank of Sgt/WO, stay ACCIS Core.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bang on May 31, 2010, 13:05:43
Puckchaser,

Would you be willing to pass the ppt to anyone granted through the dwan?



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 31, 2010, 13:23:40
Yep, only for the next day or so. I'm on Op Cadence and won't be in the office. If you send me a PM with your DWAN today, I'll get it to you when I'm in the office tomorrow morning. Open to anyone else that wants a copy as well, just send me a PM.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Alpheus on June 02, 2010, 22:17:08
For what it's worth, but some friends of mine in Kingston have told me that all Sig Op and LCIS QL3's for the rest of the year have been canceled and the new ACCIS courses will only start in Jan next year.  They didn't mention POET.

Still RumInt, so take with plenty of salt.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 03, 2010, 08:08:59
One of the key efforts of MES was to reduce combined training days to create Sigs faster.  One of the earliest briefings I had on it discussed reducing initial training to 72 days total (doesn't leave much room for POET).  If the briefing I have at the end of the month bears any different fruit I will post it here.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 03, 2010, 09:22:04
POET on its own is over 100 Trg days, so I can't see that being part of the QL3 ACCIS ever.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: rmc_wannabe on June 03, 2010, 11:28:01
The Last MES brief I heard they were adamant that POET would be reduced in training days, or scraped for QL3. I remember a thorough discussion going on in which the Army F of S stated something along the lines of "We need to stop training Sgt's at the Pte(B) level. Technical skills are developed, not rammed down the throat in a hundred training days."
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on June 03, 2010, 17:18:53
The Last MES brief I heard they were adamant that POET would be reduced in training days, or scraped for QL3. I remember a thorough discussion going on in which the Army F of S stated something along the lines of "We need to stop training Sgt's at the Pte(B) level. Technical skills are developed, not rammed down the throat in a hundred training days."

The Army F of S had better tell the dozens of community colleges that are teaching electronics technician/technologist programs that they've been doing it all wrong, then.

A tech needs a core set of skills, and they aren't going to acquire it in under 100 training days. 

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on June 03, 2010, 17:27:11
I'll pass it on.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on June 03, 2010, 17:30:54
A tech needs a core set of skills, and they aren't going to acquire it in under 100 training days.

Most days I've been up near CFSCE, students are getting out for lunch at 1130, going back after 1300 and sometimes getting off before 1500.  Of course, I have no way of knowing if they're POET students or not.

I have always found that most military courses have added days for whatever reason and this usually results in the course being longer than it needs to be.  However, most schools will not give up those days because it's too hard to get them back when they really do need them.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on June 03, 2010, 17:43:54
POET/ATIS guys start early...(0700).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 03, 2010, 21:27:10
Isn't training days to qualify one of the marks the Treasury Board uses to determine who gets spec pay? If they're going to cut the ACISS training time down, we're basically killing one surefire way to attract recruits/OTs into the trade(s).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 03, 2010, 21:47:39
As far as I know the length of training has very little to do with Spec pay. Entry requirements, civilian equivalent pay scales, and retention seem to be some of the prerequisites for a trade to gain spec pay. As for the fine LCIS techs already drawing Spec, we will retain it until retirement.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 03, 2010, 21:49:00
Don't worry about Spec Pay I'm sure they'll give it freely after taking a look at all the poor kids with swollen heads stumbling out of CFSCE on day 73 after having 4 trades jammed into their brains.  I hope supply is ready for the sudden demand for size 8 + hats.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 03, 2010, 21:51:00
Hey Swingline, I think the Sig Ops have a storeroom full of 8+ over at CFJSR. Alot of overinflated egos hag out there.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 03, 2010, 22:03:09
Hey Swingline, I think the Sig Ops have a storeroom full of 8+ over at CFJSR. Alot of overinflated egos hag out there.  >:D

Now you've done it!  The eggheads have pinged your IP, narrowed down your location, and are focusing all their energies on disrupting your cell service and creating snow on your TV.  How dare you speak ill of the Mothership and it's Minions!   ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on June 03, 2010, 22:10:00
Rgr that!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 03, 2010, 23:47:25
Bring on the egg heads, I still use something confusing to them...a land line. ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Neolithium on June 04, 2010, 13:38:19
Bring on the egg heads, I still use something confusing to them...a land line. ;D
Land......line?  I better hit google to figure out what that is exactly  :rofl:  From what I've been reading in the thread I suppose I can expect my head to explode before I'm done at CFSCE.  Oh well, I love a challenge.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 04, 2010, 16:01:23
For those adverse to the taste of blueing, a packet of mustard will do nicely. >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 04, 2010, 20:19:36
Land......line?  I better hit google to figure out what that is exactly  :rofl:

sigh...yet another nail in my coffin.  But, I take heart in the fact that even wireless has wires (backbone).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Alpheus on June 07, 2010, 19:30:36
Most days I've been up near CFSCE, students are getting out for lunch at 1130, going back after 1300 and sometimes getting off before 1500.  Of course, I have no way of knowing if they're POET students or not.

Sincerely doubt they were POET, that sounds a lot like a typical day when I was on PAT in Kingston not long ago.

One question.  I know Sig Op is still a red trade.  When this mess of an amalgamation goes ahead, will the new super-trade be red?  I know quite a few Sig Ops who really don't want to wait a year before they start their QL3's.  Will they be able to OT out or will the sub-occupations have their own red/green status?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 07, 2010, 20:41:52
One question.  I know Sig Op is still a red trade.  When this mess of an amalgamation goes ahead, will the new super-trade be red?  I know quite a few Sig Ops who really don't want to wait a year before they start their QL3's.  Will they be able to OT out or will the sub-occupations have their own red/green status?

My guess is there will not be much change in status over the next while with the the trades looking pretty much the same on 1 Jan 11.  With Sig Ops supposedly going to be split 50/50 across ACISS and IST I imagine both core and sub-occupation will remain red.  I also think CST will still be less than healthy and LST will be green as per normal.  Once things settle and we are a few years in with new applicants being equally fed into the core and sub-occupations things may slowly level out and we will all only be sick vice dead.  But with the Army Signals Attraction Team roaming the country and the potential of seeing many combat arms OT's after things settle down in the ATO, we may just weather the storm.  The sub-occupations are also supposed to move slower (career wise) than the core group and I imagine this is to retain key skills for longer periods and hopefully flush out the rank and file.  The amalgamation is supposed to make lateral movement between occupations easier but I wouldn't  opt out just yet, things are just starting to get interesting.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Alpheus on June 09, 2010, 14:48:09
This is screwed up.  I've been loaded onto a POET course starting in July!  WTF, over!?!  ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 09, 2010, 18:53:03
This is screwed up.  I've been loaded onto a POET course starting in July!  WTF, over!?!  ::)

Makes perfect sense since the new trade and sub-occupations don't exist yet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on June 09, 2010, 19:42:27
Makes perfect sense since the new trade and sub-occupations don't exist yet.

Yup. Not 'til 1 Jan

This is screwed up.  I've been loaded onto a POET course starting in July!  WTF, over!?!  ::)

I'd suggest you be go with it. You're getting paid to learn something either way.

Best Case scenario: You complete POET. By the time you complete POET, there's still an LCIS 3's being run, you get into that, and once the whole shuffle happens, congrats, you're a CST (Tech Sub-Occ)

Second Best Case scenario: You complete POET, but by that time , there is no longer an LCIS 3's package. So you start your ACISS training, but due to being POET Qualified, you get put right into the CST stream, maybe get a PLAR on wherever applicable, and congrats, you're a CST

Second Worst Case scenario: You complete POET, but by that time, there is no longer an LCIS 3's package. So you start your ACISS training, and go through all those portions, and due to being POET qualified, you will be highly considered for the CST Stream...Congrats, you MAY be a CST.

Worst Case scenario: You get pulled off POET part-way through, as there is no longer a LCIS 3's package. You start your ACISS training, and go into whatever stream they decide. Congrats, you're in the Army.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Alpheus on June 09, 2010, 21:50:52
Makes perfect sense since the new trade and sub-occupations don't exist yet.

It would, but I had buddies dropped from courses starting around the same time.  And others loaded onto Reserve QL3s as well.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on June 10, 2010, 03:06:50
It would, but I had buddies dropped from courses starting around the same time.  And others loaded onto Reserve QL3s as well.

Really? Especially considering that there hasn't been any reserve LCIS training in years?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 10, 2010, 09:26:53
Nor will there ever be PRes LCIS Trg ever again. The units never had their nominees return except to clear out as part of a CT, they were scooped up at the termination of the QL3.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Alpheus on June 10, 2010, 23:43:35
Really? Especially considering that there hasn't been any reserve LCIS training in years?

Whoops, I forgot to mention they are Sig Op Reserve courses.

It just seems that one hand at CFSCE doesn't know what the other is doing.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 11, 2010, 01:16:06
That has been the case for many many moons.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 11, 2010, 07:22:35
It just seems that one hand at CFSCE doesn't know what the other is doing.

They know exactly what they are doing.  A complete stoppage of training would create an even bigger bottleneck and people like you would have to wait even longer to be trained.  While we sit around on our computers, drink coffee and postulate, the folks at CFCSE are living with the amalgamation every day.  In a very short time they have had to figure out how to move from teaching the legacy Qualification Levels to the new Development Periods, meanwhile trying to balance that with the inflow of personnel, and still try to produce viable signallers for the use of the CF.  I do not envy them.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on June 11, 2010, 13:08:06
They know exactly what they are doing.  A complete stoppage of training would create an even bigger bottleneck and people like you would have to wait even longer to be trained.  While we sit around on our computers, drink coffee and postulate, the folks at CFCSE are living with the amalgamation every day.  In a very short time they have had to figure out how to move from teaching the legacy Qualification Levels to the new Development Periods, meanwhile trying to balance that with the inflow of personnel, and still try to produce viable signallers for the use of the CF.  I do not envy them.

Yup. I just finished the ACISS DP 2.1 Writing Board, and it definitely has been a balancing act for the staff at CFSCE, capturing the different levels. It isn't just a matter of Stop this training, and start that one the the next day.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: goair on June 13, 2010, 20:56:56
I've read through quite a bit of this thread and am trying to understand something.  Dh was offered an LCIS position - he will be sworn in at the beginning of July, leaving end of July for BMQ.  Does this amalgamation mean that when he is done his BMQ they might not be loading him onto the rest of his courses for LCIS training?  My understanding is that after BMQ he's to go to somewhere (Borden maybe) for 10 wks. (SQ is maybe what it is called, sorry a lot of acronyms to remember) and then he'd be going to Kingston for POET.  So if he signs on the dotted line for LCIS does that mean he's for sure going to get training and job assigment as LCIS, or will all the changes change up those who are already on course for LCIS or who are already qualified in that trade?  Thanks for any help clarifying it all for me.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on June 14, 2010, 00:21:37
I've read through quite a bit of this thread and am trying to understand something.  Dh was offered an LCIS position - he will be sworn in at the beginning of July, leaving end of July for BMQ.  Does this amalgamation mean that when he is done his BMQ they might not be loading him onto the rest of his courses for LCIS training?  My understanding is that after BMQ he's to go to somewhere (Borden maybe) for 10 wks. (SQ is maybe what it is called, sorry a lot of acronyms to remember) and then he'd be going to Kingston for POET.  So if he signs on the dotted line for LCIS does that mean he's for sure going to get training and job assigment as LCIS, or will all the changes change up those who are already on course for LCIS or who are already qualified in that trade?  Thanks for any help clarifying it all for me.

Once again, as of 1 Jan 2011, there is NO LCIS trade. Those who are LCIS techs will become ACISS CST's. It's up in the air what's going to happen to people who are currently in training, maybe some of their training for the new trade and sub-occupation will be written off.

Your husband, if he has yet to leave for BMQ, as the timeline will be tight, will most likely have to go through all of the ACISS training program before he enters the Tech sub-occupation stream.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: CyberFire on June 14, 2010, 10:22:56
I'm not sure if this link has been posted or not, but it does have some valuable information for the new amalgamation that helped me see it a little more clearly.  I have been following this thread for a long time since I originally accepted the offer of LCIS while waiting for ATIS to re-open.  However since I was offered ATIS a little while ago and accepted that, this doesn't really pertain to me anymore.  It is still interesting however and I hope it helps shed some more light on the subject.
http://www.commelec.forces.gc.ca/inf/new-bul/vol51/article-08-eng.asp
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bang on June 15, 2010, 20:50:56
Thank you for that link :)

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: goair on June 15, 2010, 22:21:50
I'm not sure if this link has been posted or not, but it does have some valuable information for the new amalgamation that helped me see it a little more clearly.  I have been following this thread for a long time since I originally accepted the offer of LCIS while waiting for ATIS to re-open.  However since I was offered ATIS a little while ago and accepted that, this doesn't really pertain to me anymore.  It is still interesting however and I hope it helps shed some more light on the subject.
http://www.commelec.forces.gc.ca/inf/new-bul/vol51/article-08-eng.asp

Thanks for the link.  What is going to happen to all the guys and gals who are LCIS right now (as in fully trained and working in the field)?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 15, 2010, 22:33:23
What is going to happen to all the guys and gals who are LCIS right now (as in fully trained and working in the field)?

That question has already been answered.

Once again, as of 1 Jan 2011, there is NO LCIS trade. Those who are LCIS techs will become ACISS CST's.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: goair on June 15, 2010, 22:44:33
That question has already been answered.

My bad.  So the guys who are currently LCIS, are they going to get to pick which branch/sub-trade area they want to do or will they just be told what direction they are going to go?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 15, 2010, 23:18:58
The state of positions is being hashed out right now. Look for most Cbt Arms units to be quite heavy CST
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Hullo_Amigo on July 27, 2010, 22:42:27
I'm not sure if this link has been posted or not, but it does have some valuable information for the new amalgamation that helped me see it a little more clearly.  I have been following this thread for a long time since I originally accepted the offer of LCIS while waiting for ATIS to re-open.  However since I was offered ATIS a little while ago and accepted that, this doesn't really pertain to me anymore.  It is still interesting however and I hope it helps shed some more light on the subject.
http://www.commelec.forces.gc.ca/inf/new-bul/vol51/article-08-eng.asp

Thank you for the link. It made everything much easier to understand.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MilitantAtheist on July 28, 2010, 22:53:48
So was just choosen to be a LCIS Tech and will complete BMQ some time in the spring. My question is how does this effect me and other people going into the communications branch if not at all?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on July 28, 2010, 23:20:06
So was just choosen to be a LCIS Tech and will complete BMQ some time in the spring. My question is how does this effect me and other people going into the communications branch if not at all?

Most of us currently serving in Sigs trades do not have the whole picture yet; or even know if we will be in the same trade box (related sub-occupation) when we come out the other side of the meat grinder.  How the system will manage the inflow of personnel recruited within the legacy trades, or where they put them after their initial training is anyone's guess.  Good luck!

Cheers,
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MilitantAtheist on July 31, 2010, 23:30:55
"Most of us currently serving in Sigs trades do not have the whole picture yet; or even know if we will be in the same trade box (related sub-occupation) when we come out the other side of the meat grinder.  How the system will manage the inflow of personnel recruited within the legacy trades, or where they put them after their initial training is anyone's guess.  Good luck!

Cheers,"

Thanks

Also I really doesn't matter to me. The extra training would be good and im not worried about where I go either. I know will be in good hands.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 27, 2010, 20:54:28
For those that are looking for more information, the CFSCE DWAN site has quite a bit of powerpoints/briefing notes right from the first idea of MES. Go to the CFSCE site, then click on "CFSCE Sharepoint sites". On that page, there will be a MES labelled link with a green padlock. Should be able to access and read everything. The MES Managers will have a Sharepoint site up in the "near future" that will allow all C&E trade members effected by MES to input and justify their choice in trade (sub occ, or core).

One interesting thing I found was that the number of LSTs (aka Linemen) is pretty close to the same number of the current 052 trade. Anyone in the Line stream can request to move to another sub occupation if they feel they have the courses to fit in the new occupation.

Also stated (these are rough numbers) that 60% of LCIS will move to CST, and 40% to IST. Which means 60% of SigOps will stay ACISS Core, and 40% move to IST to populate the new sub occupation.

Spec pay is up in the air, no one knows if we will even get it, but any new members to the trades will not receive it until its approved by Treasury Board.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 27, 2010, 21:24:48
Just had the MEZ brief yesterday in Edmonton. The IST sub-occ will be the last one formed due to the challenge of selections out of the LCIS and Sig Op trades. The sharepoint will be unlocked on 7 Sep 10, with a special e-mail sent through the DWAN to all known affected pers. Spec pay will remain the domain of LCIS Techs until TB decision on what group will receive it. It could be all, which is the wish of the Sub-occ directors, it could be only select sub-occs or no one. In the case of the latter, what will happen is all former LCIS QL5+ mbrs will continue to receive their current pay until promotion or IPCs take them past it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on August 27, 2010, 22:13:16
Just had the MEZ brief yesterday in Edmonton. The IST sub-occ will be the last one formed due to the challenge of selections out of the LCIS and Sig Op trades. The sharepoint will be unlocked on 7 Sep 10, with a special e-mail sent through the DWAN to all known affected pers. Spec pay will remain the domain of LCIS Techs until TB decision on what group will receive it. It could be all, which is the wish of the Sub-occ directors, it could be only select sub-occs or no one. In the case of the latter, what will happen is all former LCIS QL5+ mbrs will continue to receive their current pay until promotion or IPCs take them past it.

Yeah...fun brief, bit of a headshaker on some points.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 27, 2010, 23:29:27
Makes you wonder what they were thinking.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on August 27, 2010, 23:35:39
Makes you wonder what they were thinking.

Yup. I'm of the personal opinion that the same end-state could have been achieved by taking the Sig Op trade, splitting it between Operators and IS Specialists, and opening the new trade to members of the other C & E trades that would be interested.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 28, 2010, 00:47:21
Sometimes the good idea train ends with the rails running off a cliff. The way we were explained it, MES was born from MOSART. When MOSART died, some civvies lost their jobs and some staff officers retired because they staked their careers on it. The ones that stayed in, created MES to do the same thing.

We're just shuffling people around, and not fixing the underlying retention/recruiting problems and the old material in the training system.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on August 28, 2010, 06:32:10
Sometimes the good idea train ends with the rails running off a cliff. The way we were explained it, MES was born from MOSART. When MOSART died, some civvies lost their jobs and some staff officers retired because they staked their careers on it. The ones that stayed in, created MES to do the same thing.

We're just shuffling people around, and not fixing the underlying retention/recruiting problems and the old material in the training system.
and a whole lot more that can't be said that I agree with....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on August 28, 2010, 09:59:08
I've heard plenty of people who are in the zone talk about retiring over this initiative.  It will be interesting to see if they are true to their word.  I've heard retention used as one of the reasons for the amalgamation; does anyone know exactly what part of this gong show is actually attractive?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 28, 2010, 11:16:01
There isn't much that's super attractive to the people that are already serving. There also isn't much that's attractive to potential recruits: Everyone wants to make that extra few dollars that Spec Pay gives, and we won't be getting it for the foreseeable future. Apparently, since we're all going to be super-signallers, sub occupation pers can move over and do the job of a core ACISS person. This might be alright for a section commander and up, but if I'm in a TacRad det overseas, I don't want some Cpl who's been sitting in a server farm for 5 years who did a watered down DP1. According to CFSCE, SigOps have the longest QL3 package (if you don't add POET to LCIS). How can you possibly teach someone to be a SigOp, Lineman, and LCIS Tech in 75 training days?

We're about to create a trade of people who require maximum supervision to do Pte level tasks until they get their DP2 course, which is at least 3 years into their careers. The strain and stress won't be on the MES managers and Career Managers, it will be borne by the MCpl and Sgt supervisors.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 28, 2010, 11:30:39
And according to the presenter on Thursday the timeline for a new recruit will run like this. DP1 75 trg days then off to a CMBG Sigs Sqn for a 1-2 yr OJT period followed by the 25 day DP2 common course. Then they will be sent out to the Cbt Arms units as ACISS, but will not have completed any specialty trg. Which would be fine if you are just looking at filling CP posns, but if you require CST's then you get a warm body and nothing more. CST posns need to be filled at the lowest lvl by pers that can be employable at Cbt Arms units without resorting to micromanagement.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on August 28, 2010, 13:21:39
. In the case of the latter, what will happen is all former LCIS QL5+ mbrs will continue to receive their current pay until promotion or IPCs take them past it.

So a LCIS tech Cpl (spec 1) , incentive 4 at $5362 a month who looses spec pay will have to wait until he is promoted WO (standard) at $5728 to receive his first pay raise....  ( A Sgt IPC 4 in the standard pay bracket receives $5351)

NICE !



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on August 28, 2010, 17:57:13
And according to the presenter on Thursday the timeline for a new recruit will run like this. DP1 75 trg days then off to a CMBG Sigs Sqn for a 1-2 yr OJT period followed by the 25 day DP2 common course. Then they will be sent out to the Cbt Arms units as ACISS, but will not have completed any specialty trg. Which would be fine if you are just looking at filling CP posns, but if you require CST's then you get a warm body and nothing more. CST posns need to be filled at the lowest lvl by pers that can be employable at Cbt Arms units without resorting to micromanagement.

Not to mention without changing the manning at out-unit levels. So now, when you currently have people double-hatting as CP Operators as well as handling low-unit IS helpdesk, how are you going to seperate sub-trade differences in the APS position filling?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 28, 2010, 19:34:09
So a LCIS tech Cpl (spec 1) , incentive 4 at $5362 a month who looses spec pay will have to wait until he is promoted WO (standard) at $5728 to receive his first pay raise....  ( A Sgt IPC 4 in the standard pay bracket receives $5351)

NICE !

I know Rob, its quite the kick in the ***, but that is worst case scenario. Best case we continue to keep getting promoted with it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bradinsudbury on August 29, 2010, 09:31:00
Hey everyone,

I apologize for the "Newbie-ness" (is that a word? if not, I think it should be!!) of this post, but this thread caught my attention since SigOp is my first trade choice and Lineman is my second choice as I look ahead to FY11.

I am just wondering if someone could "dumb this down"  a bit and give me, in a nutshell, what this trade amalgamation will mean to a new recruit going forward?

1) How will this affect the first training out of BMQ
2) Will this lead to more or less opportunities in the trade
and
3) What kind of affect will the trade amalgamation have on career progression/postings?

I recognize from reading the posts on this thread that there seem to be a lot of unknowns, so feel free to speculate and postulate for me! (just go easy one the acronyms and abbreviations! I haven't had "Military Abbreviations 101" yet!   ;))

Thanks a lot.
 :yellow:

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 29, 2010, 12:53:46
1) How will this affect the first training out of BMQ

No new QL3 courses will start at CFSCE after 17 Dec 2010. If you get on a course before that, you will be qualified and grandfathered in the old trades. If you don't, then you'll be loaded on the new trade DP1 starting sometime after 3 Jan 2011.

2) Will this lead to more or less opportunities in the trade

No one has any idea at the "people being effected" level. I'm sure there's a small idea somewhere at the MES implementation team level, but it doesn't make sense to the rest of us.

3) What kind of affect will the trade amalgamation have on career progression/postings?

ACISS Core is said to be able to progress faster through the ranks as there are numerically more positions available. Postings will happen regardless. Everything else is really up in the air, however it will be easier for a new recruit such as yourself to jump into the new trade and figure it out. Those of us that have been in for close to a decade or longer, have a lot of the structure to unlearn.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: zzyzx723 on August 29, 2010, 14:11:27
No new QL3 courses will start at CFSCE after 17 Dec 2010. If you get on a course before that, you will be qualified and grandfathered in the old trades. If you don't, then you'll be loaded on the new trade DP1 starting sometime after 3 Jan 2011.

According to the course calendar on CFSCE's website, all Sig OP QL3 courses have been cancelled for the rest of the year - unless they are "un-cancelled" or new ones are created, it looks like the course that started two weeks ago is the last true SigOp course that will be run.

Again, this is according to the course calendar on the CFSCE site, but it has been very wrong in the past so don't take it as gospel truth, just passing along the info.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 29, 2010, 15:19:30
The date I got was from the CFSCE FoS. There's at least 150 SigOps and 150 LCIS on PAT right now, not including the LCIS students who have started POET. If they've stopped training, we're going to be in a hurt locker for new blood in the C&E Branch for years to come.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on August 29, 2010, 19:03:24
The date I got was from the CFSCE FoS. There's at least 150 SigOps and 150 LCIS on PAT right now, not including the LCIS students who have started POET. If they've stopped training, we're going to be in a hurt locker for new blood in the C&E Branch for years to come.

I know they were talking up retention, but think of numbers of members who release after their VIE under the current system. I see that number increasing...what with "They will be working in those jobs, but not qualified for those jobs".

Seems to me that a big bottleneck will be OJT. The plan is pretty much going to push the HQ & Sig Sqns into an extension of the training establishment, which is going to suck, as Op Tempo isn't going to take a break so we can train some basic skillsets.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 29, 2010, 21:37:32
Well, if we don't go anywhere past 2011, the Branch assumes we have all sorts of time to hand hold DP1 pers.

Nowhere in the brief did they discuss skillfade. Apparently we're all supposed to be smart enough to memorize everything from the DP1, and retain it after working in a IST position.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 29, 2010, 21:39:01
This will be even truer for the Cbt Arms units who require fully trained personell to allow for mission specifc tailored tasks. Sending plain vanilla ACISS out to a unit hurting for CSTs is not a solution, its a hinderance.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 29, 2010, 21:43:16
Well, if we don't go anywhere past 2011, the Branch assumes we have all sorts of time to hand hold DP1 pers.

Nowhere in the brief did they discuss skillfade. Apparently we're all supposed to be smart enough to memorize everything from the DP1, and retain it after working in a IST position.

Maybe its time to leave the branch concept behind, and reactivate the RC Sigs Corps as an Army led, trained and administered entity. Give the ATIS back to the AF, and Half the Comms Research to the Navy. The Army 291ers can form the core of the IST sub occ, and give us mission tailored ECM/ESM capability without too much skill fade happening to the rest of the ACISS trade
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 29, 2010, 23:14:33
That's a pretty excellent idea, but CFIOG would never let that happen. Its the only way they get boots on the ground.  I've always maintained that Army EW should be done by SigOps (or ACISS core now). Give the strategic stuff to the Air Force and Navy.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 30, 2010, 09:52:15
The AF ECM/ESM role could be provided by the AES Ops that currently man the back end of the Aurora. I'm sure CDNAviator would attest to that. CFIOG is a big of a lumbering beast as well. The new 21 EW Regt doesn't belong to them, only Lietrim and the remote dets belong to CFIOG. Not much of a deployment capability there.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Panzerschütze on August 30, 2010, 10:24:53
   Random question, will this have any effect on Sig O?

 :yellow:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 30, 2010, 12:58:00
   Random question, will this have any effect on Sig O?

 :yellow:

Sig Os will be challenged to lead some troops that will be very disheartened by the new trades. This is a NCM change only.

Tango: Completely agree. AF 291ers don't do an AF role, leaving just Navy and Army as the only ones who work in their element. There's also probably quite a bit more Navy 291ers than there are positions on ship. The trade is purple by choice. The EW Regt should be manned by the best and brightest field signals troops in the Army, not forcing shift workers into the back of a Bison and expect them to be able to function.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on August 30, 2010, 13:06:27
AF 291ers don't do an AF role,

Some do indeed IIRC :

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/equip/cu170/specs-eng.asp
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 30, 2010, 17:21:55
Isn't the EWA from a hard blue trade? I don't want to get too far into details, as I'm sure most of the Heron mission specs beyond providing "ISR" are classified.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 03, 2010, 13:34:02
I heard recently in a MES brief that the EW guys are thinking of coming online with this program.  Any 291'ers out there, what is your perspective?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 04, 2010, 18:50:06
As in 291 becoming part of the ACISS trade?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 04, 2010, 19:40:56
CFIOG would never let that happen. They're stuck in their own little world over there, and only a handful have actually moved into the 21st century conflict.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 04, 2010, 19:57:32
Then maybe CFIOG should be the sole home for 291'ers, one common focal point and one common tasking agency.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 04, 2010, 20:09:53
The MES managers mentioned that the rubber heads were showing interest in the amalgamation because the basic DP1 guys could potentially feed them with new blood as the overall trade requirement for ACISS is a lvl III clearance.  Apparently their biggest hurdle is just that, getting guys cleared.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 04, 2010, 20:36:32
Apparently their biggest hurdle is just that, getting guys cleared.

Yep, 2 years is the average. If someone doesn't sign a CE after their BE4, the 291 trade gets about 1 year of trade-related employment out of a person.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 04, 2010, 21:47:18
So where will the new ACISS guys be employable without a clearance though? Is the requirement to get on DP1 for ACISS to have lvl 3 or to have it in progress like we have it for the sig op trade right now?

Wouldn't it make it just easier to remove the SA requirement then join the amalgamation or have the same clearance requirements as the ACISS DP1?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 04, 2010, 21:53:06
Are you talking about the SA requirement for the 291ers? Their job specifically requires Special Access, and are not employable without it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 04, 2010, 21:54:40
So I don't see how joining ACISS would solve any of the existing problems then.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 04, 2010, 22:01:40
The only thing I can see is that they would be getting soldiers with field skills before putting them on their 291 courses. Its not a bonus to that trade, but to the CF in that they would be able to employ these people gainfully until their clearance came in.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 04, 2010, 23:39:46
So I don't see how joining ACISS would solve any of the existing problems then.

All ACISS are expected (so the plan goes) to be employed in a brigade first qualified as a basic CP Op.  These folks then do their OJT/trade intros and by the time they have fullfilled all their basic checks in the box they will have their clearances.  This group is now ready to move into one of the three sub-occupations or progress into the parent occupation, basically a huge manpower pool.  I believe it is this pre-cleared pool that is attractive to them.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 05, 2010, 09:23:38
Yes, but they also said that people are going to be evaluated on how they do all three positions before being assigned a sub occupation. How are they going to evaluate guys for the comm rsch when they don't have their clearance and can't touch any equipment or even be exposed to any aspect of the trade itself.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 05, 2010, 09:55:36
How is that any different then taking comm-researchers recruits from off the street?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 05, 2010, 10:10:38
As an ACISS you can get assigned a different sub occupation while off the street you're already in that occupation.

The recruiting pitch would be interesting, " Hey, want to be  comm rsch? Well you can join a ACISS trade, do a common course
and get evaluated in all sub occupations, but not in the comm rsch one because you won't have the clearance for that. And if you do a great job you might get assigned a totally different sub occupation. Feel lucky enough to roll the dice?"
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 05, 2010, 19:35:31
How are they going to evaluate guys for the comm rsch when they don't have their clearance and can't touch any equipment or even be exposed to any aspect of the trade itself.

I don't know, we never delved that deep into the issue.  How do they do it now?  The Managers did say that because everything is a sub-occupation it would be very easy to add and adjust for a new trade being tossed into the process as everything is internal to the core occupation and managed at that level.

How is that any different then taking comm-researchers recruits from off the street?

Say EW becomes part of the process.  Qty x 10 291'ers release and Qty x 10 291'ers are now required to meet PML.  Would it be easier to dip into a pool of basic qualified, level III cleared Signallers, or hire a guy off the street put him through the system and hope his clearance comes through?  Which is more timely?

**Just a reminder of what I originally stated, the MES Managers said EW was looking at it, not that it was a done deal or how they would do it.  We/I have started down the garden path on this one and I don't want to muddle fact and pure conjecture.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 05, 2010, 19:40:38
...but not in the comm rsch one because you won't have the clearance for that.

Don't forget, the clearance requirement for all of ACISS is going to be Level III.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 05, 2010, 20:44:58
Comm Rsch need SA to get qualified or touch any of the equipment. If you're wondering on the time line to get a SA added onto a level III. I got level III and I've been waiting for 6 months for it. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 05, 2010, 20:55:39
It's just an Indoc for SA isn't it?  I do believe the list is prioritized with operational/deploying personnel being the first in line.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 05, 2010, 20:57:28
Nope, another full background. Expect about 1 yr.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on October 05, 2010, 20:58:28
It's just an Indoc for SA isn't it?  I do believe the list is prioritized with operational/deploying personnel being the first in line.

No.  There is still a further "clearance", and then an Indoc.




.......................Not fast enough.......... :-[    Tango18A beat me to it.....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 05, 2010, 21:07:32
Sorry George, I guess that what age does to typing speed. >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 05, 2010, 21:07:44
Thanks...learn something new everyday  :)

I've only ever been on the periphery of such happenings.  There isn't much call for super secret Linemen.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 05, 2010, 21:08:56
Nope, another full background. Expect about 1 yr.

I wish.  I've been waiting over two for SA....and that's with having level III for the last oh...say.....25 years? 

If I hear "Uncleared personnel on the floor!" one more time, I'm going postal.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 05, 2010, 21:10:50
It only took 1 yr at CFCMU, but that was back in 04/05. Not too many clearances being processed back then compare to now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 05, 2010, 21:45:57
Comm Rsch need SA to get qualified or touch any of the equipment. If you're wondering on the time line to get a SA added onto a level III. I got level III and I've been waiting for 6 months for it.

Not all of their equipment is SA. Some requires a lower clearance, but a clearance altogether.

Occam: The ASIC overseas has a bright red flashing light when TS and below pers are in the Ops area. I never envied the people that had to walk in with that thing going off.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on October 05, 2010, 21:58:30
Two years of waiting for SA? You're starting to scare me Occam.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 05, 2010, 22:15:59
Occam: The ASIC overseas has a bright red flashing light when TS and below pers are in the Ops area. I never envied the people that had to walk in with that thing going off.

Yep, I run into it mostly at CFEWC and JIIFC Det, where they announce your presence like you're wearing the scarlet letter.  Other places, the beacon seems to be sufficient.  Oh well.  They'll get around to processing me sometime.  Hopefully before my references have developed Alzheimer's.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 05, 2010, 22:52:39
Say EW becomes part of the process.  Qty x 10 291'ers release and Qty x 10 291'ers are now required to meet PML.  Would it be easier to dip into a pool of basic qualified, level III cleared Signallers, or hire a guy off the street put him through the system and hope his clearance comes through?  Which is more timely?

Just for clarification, I think it's a great idea.

Not only would they already have the security clearance, but they'd already have a practical knowledge of communications, and any keen sig-op has at least some idea of what a 291er does.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 05, 2010, 23:31:41
After speaking with a few of my course mates, we've come to the conclusion that not even the MES Managers know what ACISS is. Someone's pet project to get leading change marks on a PER is going to screw the C&E Branch up for the next decade, and thats not what we need to breathe new life into the Branch. I really hope that the rumour I heard wasn't true, in that the CDS only just found out what was happening to the Jimmy trades on Op Nanook when a junior NCM asked him what was going on with it. Actually, scratch that. Hopefully the rumour is true, and the CDS will start kicking people around to either can this whole business, or turn it into something worthwhile.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 06, 2010, 08:09:50
I have to agree with PC, I am not looking forward to the transition period.  This thing was planned in a vacuum and once it touches real world conditions we're in for a bit of a gong show IMHO.  While skeptical in my own mind it is fascinating to witness the almost religious fervor with which some of the organizers approach this and then to see the tired resignation on the MES managers faces as they have to answer the spec pay question for the millionth time.  Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on October 07, 2010, 22:53:07
I have to agree with PC, I am not looking forward to the transition period.  This thing was planned in a vacuum and once it touches real world conditions we're in for a bit of a gong show IMHO.  While skeptical in my own mind it is fascinating to witness the almost religious fervor with which some of the organizers approach this and then to see the tired resignation on the MES managers faces as they have to answer the spec pay question for the millionth time.  Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!

I have witnessed this fervor as well. I found it pretty disturbing - they can't answer the questions, don't seem to HEAR the questions, and insist that although there will be growing pains "it will all work out in the end"....

I agree that something has to be done, but is this it? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 08, 2010, 00:57:47
If anyone has ever shot themselves in the foot... I think thats how all of us will feel 1 Jan 2011. Except it will be both feet with shotgun slugs.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 08, 2010, 07:48:34
This is one of those times that I hope someone from the CoC is reading this forum. Anything I've said here I'd have no problem saying to the staff officer who designed this MES shenanigans.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 08, 2010, 08:06:24
This is one of those times that I hope someone from the CoC is reading this forum. Anything I've said here I'd have no problem saying to the staff officer who designed this MES shenanigans.

I've actually been in a room with him and all this and more was thrown at him (I don't remember his name but he came out of the failed MOSART program).  Nothing can sway his line of thinking and his eyes shine like he is talking about his new born baby.  LSD in the water me thinks.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on October 08, 2010, 09:41:22
Anyone else get the email about doing the ACISS survey where you pick what occupation you want for first and second choice then write why you should be in that occupation?   Just got it wednesday, wonder how much say we really do have in what we want or if it's going to come down to your current trade and position/job you're in now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 08, 2010, 09:55:30
I got it through my chain, and had to pass it out to members of the course I was just on because they've never heard of it. I think the survey is going to give them base numbers for the new "trades", though I'd love to read what is written in some of those text boxes. 5 bucks says 90% of them mentioned either a retention bonus or spec pay.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 08, 2010, 09:57:20
Anyone else get the email about doing the ACISS survey where you pick what occupation you want for first and second choice then write why you should be in that occupation?   Just got it wednesday, wonder how much say we really do have in what we want or if it's going to come down to your current trade and position/job you're in now.

We all got it out west. I has to be completed by 15 Oct 10.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on October 11, 2010, 15:50:20
When was this survey sent and by who, I have yet to see it.  Not that I have any faith in any system that created this monstrosity.  I know I have said it before in this thread but I still maintain that is is going to be a disaster of epic proportions.  The Titanic will look mild by comparison.

I received the PPT that tried to show the career and training progression.  I have yet to figure out where I or my troops will fit into the grand scheme of things.  I am not holding by breathe as to the outcome.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 11, 2010, 15:53:48
My TP WO got it from the FoS of my unit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 11, 2010, 18:54:33
I think i still have the email at work. I will check tommorow.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 12, 2010, 16:04:15
For those future ACISS who have not received the link to the MES 'Choose Your Own Adventure' site:

http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx (http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 12, 2010, 20:17:58
For those future ACISS who have not received the link to the MES 'Choose Your Own Adventure' site:

http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx (http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx)

I tried to choose Page 23 which was "Abandon ACISS and remuster" and ended up trapped in a COMCEN in Ottawa for 5 years.  :-[
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on October 12, 2010, 20:19:00
I tried to choose Page 23 which was "Abandon ACISS and remuster" and ended up trapped in a COMCEN in Ottawa for 5 years.  :-[

How's the night life?    >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Altair on October 15, 2010, 00:59:36
As  a Sig,uh...ACISS just out of basic in june and doing OJT in petawawa while waiting for this ACISS program to begin, I have a few questions.

After completing my DP1, am I allowed to take a DP 1.1 for all three sub occupations for the 3 year period before I have to pick one?

Also, since I joined as a Sig Op, would it be possible to be fast tracked through my additional training relevant to the ACISS branch rather than bounce around for 3 years?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 15, 2010, 10:12:07
After completing my DP1, am I allowed to take a DP 1.1 for all three sub occupations for the 3 year period before I have to pick one?

Very doubtful.

As well, the ACISS core occupation has no extra training after the DP1 course. We're going to start creating SigOps that can barely work radio equipment and will need maximum supervision. My suggestion to you is to just sit back and enjoy the ride. Nobody but the guy pushing this knows whats going on, and even that's debatable.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 15, 2010, 10:35:34
Not to be the anti-recruiter, but right now joining the Sigs branch is right up there with taking candy from strangers.  If you just have to have a taste, be prepared for a sound rogering in the back of the grey over blue painted pedo van.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 15, 2010, 12:47:47
Not to be the anti-recruiter, but right now joining the Sigs branch is right up there with taking candy from strangers.  If you just have to have a taste, be prepared for a sound rogering in the back of the grey over blue painted pedo van.

That has to be just about the best analogy I've ever read.  Well done!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 15, 2010, 20:42:08
Nice. And 2 years from now, the future will be just as bleak when the cheap canex lawn chair folds up on us and we go back to the way it is now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Altair on October 15, 2010, 23:02:31
I give it 20 years.

Ottawa looks like it can be somewhat stubborn when it thinks it has a good idea.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 15, 2010, 23:37:10
I was just on the CFSCE Sharepoint today for the ACISS implementation. All that wonderful background information is now disappeared. My FoS just stated that the branch is short at least 700 responses to the survey, which is a huge number considering the new trade is supposed to have 3200 positions.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 15, 2010, 23:39:45
The new deadline to complete the survey is now 31 Oct 2010. Maybe now the implementation can slip to the right as well. :nod:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 16, 2010, 01:51:43
I was just on the CFSCE Sharepoint today for the ACISS implementation. All that wonderful background information is now disappeared. My FoS just stated that the branch is short at least 700 responses to the survey, which is a huge number considering the new trade is supposed to have 3200 positions.

They pulled the plug on that one when they migrated all the info to the MES site.  I know...I know, you miss all the nifty MS projects docs and the working group minutes.  :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 16, 2010, 18:53:31
I didn't even know there was a MES website now. Marketing fail...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 16, 2010, 18:56:53
For those future ACISS who have not received the link to the MES 'Choose Your Own Adventure' site:

http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx (http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/default.aspx)

I've re-posted it just for you PC.  ;D

It has a FAQ and contains all the presentations and such.  It's not just the survey.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brother Blue Steel on October 17, 2010, 15:23:30
Hey everyone,

Just looking for a bit of info here. I'm done bmq in two weeks, I was enrolled as an lcis tech, and have my posting message to Kingston already. I know the amalgamation is happening in the new year. I was just wondering what the hell is going to happen? Will I get thrown on PAT? What training will I do when it is time? am I going to even be a tech? I've read through a good portion of this thread and it has left me with more questions then answers. Should I try to get out of the trade?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 17, 2010, 15:30:59
Try reading through the entire thread, and you should have your answers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 17, 2010, 15:34:12
Hey everyone,

Just looking for a bit of info here. I'm done bmq in two weeks, I was enrolled as an lcis tech, and have my posting message to Kingston already. I know the amalgamation is happening in the new year. I was just wondering what the hell is going to happen? Will I get thrown on PAT? What training will I do when it is time? am I going to even be a tech? I've read through a good portion of this thread and it has left me with more questions then answers. Should I try to get out of the trade?

You won't seem the cataclysm that the rest of us that are trained already will see. Just worry about your BMQ, and you were already going to sit on PAT for a while. If you're enrolled, your number has already been counted against a position.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on October 17, 2010, 15:41:57
I was just wondering what the hell is going to happen? Will I get thrown on PAT? What training will I do when it is time? am I going to even be a tech? I've read through a good portion of this thread and it has left me with more questions then answers. Should I try to get out of the trade?

As of Jan 1, you won't even have a trade to get out of.

Expect to show up on PAT and be prepared to wait. Maybe they'll throw you on a drivers course.

From my understanding, you will start at the very beginning of the ACISS stream, do the common DP1 (QL3) and be posted to a Signal Sqn.

Seeing as you originally joined as a tech, that may earmark you into the CST stream after your posting, but according to the training timelines shown, it'd be about 3 years before you see yourself qualified.

Like PuckChaser advised, worry about your BMQ, and you'll figure things out as they happen, much like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brother Blue Steel on October 17, 2010, 15:50:19
Alright, thanks guys.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 14, 2010, 17:56:24
Just putting in my 2 cents on this whole new ACISS trade as someone from the Res side of the house.

Our unit was briefed a couple months ago that the new common QL3/DP1 phase training will now take at least 2 summers instead of one. This means that new folks can potentially take up to 3, maybe 4 years to get fully trades qualified instead of the 1 or 2 years with the old trades. I can see this really hurting the Comms Res units a few years into the future if there are not enough experienced people at the MCpl & senior Cpl level to provide the mentoring and leadership necessary for a unit's success. This is compounded by the fact that you have people releasing (we seem to have higher turn around than Reg, should not surprising since being in Res means we have other priorities to consider in our lives), and you have a recipe for... well, maybe not disaster, but sucky-ness for sure.

IMO if the senior leadership wants to maintain the whole "Total force" concept, they really need to rethink the whole training process for us, unless they are ok with turning Comm Res units into what will essentially be just PAT platoons. Now that's only assuming if people have to patience to stick around being paid janitors in green uniforms for at least 2~3 years. I honestly think you'll have a significant number of new recruits applying releasing before then, or trying to go Reg cause they'd rather get paid being on PAT. Either way Res units will just lose head count.

Another way they can go is abandon Total force and let Res unit stay with the old trades, but somehow I doubt they would got for that consider how many people have already staked their career on this change.

Conclusion: In the future, it's gonna suck big time being a new Reserve ACISS until you get trade quals. Also, whoever thought of the acronym obviously didn't thought of the fact that you're gonna  have a bunch of RACISS in the new year. You look me in the eye and tell me it doesn't sound bad.  :-\
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2010, 01:35:04
Just putting in my 2 cents on this whole new ACISS trade as someone from the Res side of the house.

Our unit was briefed a couple months ago that the new common QL3/DP1 phase training will now take at least 2 summers instead of one.

Hasn't the Res QL3 been separated into 2 mods for the last couple years anyway?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 15, 2010, 07:26:54
It has, typical time for a QL5 qualified res sig op now is 4-5 years.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 08:33:41
I really don't see a way to reduce the 2 summers training time for a reservist and still keep the course material covering most of what's covered on RegF courses for equivalency. Yeah, the reservist may not see half the kit they're being taught, but if they ever go to a RegF unit, it easier to teach someone that's been taught and forgot, then someone who's never seen it before.

In all the briefings I've got, not once have the ever mentioned Reserve ACISS. I thought they just forgot about you guys.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on November 15, 2010, 08:47:20
I really don't see a way to reduce the 2 summers training time for a reservist and still keep the course material covering most of what's covered on RegF courses for equivalency. Yeah, the reservist may not see half the kit they're being taught, but if they ever go to a RegF unit, it easier to teach someone that's been taught and forgot, then someone who's never seen it before.

In all the briefings I've got, not once have the ever mentioned Reserve ACISS. I thought they just forgot about you guys.

Very good points. 

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a case where the Reg F and PRes Trades start to develop too large a Training Delta as to make the Reservists for the most part unemployable in a Class C posn, as what happened to the Armd Corps. 

I am involved in trg PRes to the same standard as Reg F and it does take longer, and can be quite frustrating at times.  The end result often sees fifty per cent of our graduates doing a CT and fifty per cent of the remainder going on Tour.  Maintaining a solid base of experienced and knowledgeable pers in the unit is difficult, but in reality we are doing what we are mandated to do: augment the Reg F.  We are desperately trying to recruit people who will be committed and have a strong tie to the city, hoping that we will keep them for several years and maintain our knowledge and experience, at the same time grow.  It is a difficult task, but must be done.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2010, 11:47:08
Last I heard with the DP1, it was 73 training days.

When I was on the DP2. Writing board, while we were concentrating on Reg F, when it came to learning packages, we were told specifically to keep it modular so as to make it easier for Reserve training. That was the extent of it for the Res side
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 15, 2010, 16:24:59
I know there'd be a lot of grumblings, but given budget contraints, and more importantly, time constraints, I don't see anything wrong with including a few weekends in those training days... even if it were say every second saturday...  73 training days is what? Three an a half months approximately? Maybe a little less?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 18:30:11
73 Training days is almost 4 months, without including stat holidays (which one is in the middle of the summer). Definitely a 2x 2 month course to get it close to completed.

Don't worry, the reservists aren't the only ones getting screwed with training time. The RegF DP1 course now has to combine SigOp QL3, Basic Line, Basic Technician training all into a schedule which is less training days than the current SigOp QL3. If the goal was to create soldiers that need max supervision when they come out of CFSCE, they're certainly going to achieve it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on November 15, 2010, 19:00:18
Now the base of knowledge within the C and E branch will be sinking into the mud. Much like some of the buildings at Kingston.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 19:40:14
Much like some of the buildings at Kingston.

Spent all the money on a Battleview lab instead of buying quarters for troops that don't have 50 year old carpet in them.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2010, 19:48:30
Spent all the money on a Battleview lab instead of buying quarters for troops that don't have 50 year old carpet in them.

Who needs comfy quarters when you can learn Battleview!!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 15, 2010, 20:04:09
73 Training days is almost 4 months, without including stat holidays (which one is in the middle of the summer). Definitely a 2x 2 month course to get it close to completed.

How do you figure?

Assume an average of 28 days per month, minus 8 weekend days gives us an average of 22 training days per month.

73 Trg Days/22 Trg Days = 3.31 Months.

Work two saturdays per month, brings us down to almost 3 months exactly.

I wouldn't advocate working weekends for reg force courses, and I feel dirty advocating it for reserve courses, but we're there to work, and budgets and time are tight...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 20:25:44
5 training days a week, times 4 weeks a month = 3.7 months and change.

Your math is flawed, Reserve training is April till End August, 3 of those months have 31 days and 2 have 30 days. Where are you going to find the time to get high school students for 3 whole months? Their break goes from 26 Jun to 31 Aug.

I don't want to argue math and semantics, I just think shoving Reservists through a 1 summer course that should be 2 is ridiculous. You can't employ people solid for 3 months with no weekends, your turnover would be huge. Its the Reserve exercise syndrome. "We have you here on paysheet, so we're going to cram everything we can into every minute of your time because we can". I saw the same thing on Op Cadence. So much useless training shoved into 2 weeks in order to burn out the troops before the damn Op even started.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on November 15, 2010, 20:33:16
You do what we do.  We have three Mods, where we teach Mods 1 and 2 sometime between Sep to Jun (part-time) at the Unit, and then send the students off for full-time training during (End of Jun) Jul and Aug.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 15, 2010, 21:11:30
5 training days a week, times 4 weeks a month = 3.7 months and change.

Your math is flawed, Reserve training is April till End August, 3 of those months have 31 days and 2 have 30 days. Where are you going to find the time to get high school students for 3 whole months? Their break goes from 26 Jun to 31 Aug.

I don't want to argue math and semantics, I just think shoving Reservists through a 1 summer course that should be 2 is ridiculous. You can't employ people solid for 3 months with no weekends, your turnover would be huge. Its the Reserve exercise syndrome. "We have you here on paysheet, so we're going to cram everything we can into every minute of your time because we can". I saw the same thing on Op Cadence. So much useless training shoved into 2 weeks in order to burn out the troops before the damn Op even started.

You're right, not sure how I got 22 days... should have been 20.  Totally out to lunch there.

Either way, wasn't referring to running it as one straight course, was thinking two 1.5 month mods would be easier for people to attend then two 2 month mods.

Even if we split four months into two mods, it still pretty much excludes anyone other then students from joining the trade, and I don't know what it's like for other reserve squadrons, but for us, we're not even coming close to filling our numbers chasing the student demographic. Students also have an automatic turn over of typically 4-5 years, so it doesn't produce much other then corprorals.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 22:30:40
You do what we do.  We have three Mods, where we teach Mods 1 and 2 sometime between Sep to Jun (part-time) at the Unit, and then send the students off for full-time training during (End of Jun) Jul and Aug.

That would work, but a lot of our teaching requires equipment or labs that only CFSCE or large RegF units have. There is a possibility to kill off some of the theory portions at the unit level as a DL package, but I don't see that being a significant time savings.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2010, 22:49:39
That would work, but a lot of our teaching requires equipment or labs that only CFSCE or large RegF units have. There is a possibility to kill off some of the theory portions at the unit level as a DL package, but I don't see that being a significant time savings.

From what I have seen of the TP, there isn't nearly enough Theory only to justify a DL for the DP1 portion
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on November 15, 2010, 22:52:58
I think DL is starting to be a hassle. What ever happened to the Distance being the length of a pace stick? We lose much of our ability to mentor young troops by replacing instructors with computers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on November 15, 2010, 23:06:56
I think DL is starting to be a hassle. What ever happened to the Distance being the length of a pace stick? We lose much of our ability to mentor young troops by replacing instructors with computers.

I don't mind DL in a theory driven, more advanced level course, but at basic trade level courses there shouldn't be a DL
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 15, 2010, 23:09:12
For the old res sig op QL3, there was a pre-apprentice portion, mostly VP... which in theory was completed by students when they arrived in kingston... whether they had actually completed it, and to what standard, was an entirely different matter...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 15, 2010, 23:21:37
For the old res sig op QL3, there was a pre-apprentice portion, mostly VP... which in theory was completed by students when they arrived in kingston... whether they had actually completed it, and to what standard, was an entirely different matter...

Yep. I can see this same thing happening with the RegF for the continuation training. My unit doesn't have linemen, how am I supposed to get up to DP3a ACISS level of line knowledge/skill without linemen? Guys are going to be showing up for their next ACISS core DP level, and have no clue about the other 2 trades because CFSCE has washed their hands of everyone except PATs. Or they'll be given wrong information and hopefully someone won't end up hurt.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on November 16, 2010, 12:13:18
Apologies if this was answered.. Could not find anything in regards to this.

I am SigOp QL3 trained.
I released a tad shy of 3 years ago(family reasons) after completing my contract.
I am rejoining.
I was advised by recruiters all trades are closed, however they just rx a message stating ACISS will have 20 positions open 1 Jan.

Any ideas how reentry will work as far as postings/trg go? I would really like to stay in Kingston(where I released) as my children are here, and am hoping JSR(or wherever) would be able to take me in. Any thoughts on possibilities for being posted to JSR?

Also, is there a DP breakdown of equivalencies for the old QL3 trg?

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 16, 2010, 12:46:20
There's no direct conversion from QL to DP per say...

The idea is they broke your career into "development phases", if I remember right there's 5 (6?). I'm sure it's covered elsewhere in the forum....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 16, 2010, 13:33:08
Sigger, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you will most likely be treated as though there was no joining of the trades, and that you will be brought back in based on the qualifications that you have already gained.  grandfathered if you will.

I was going to say that CFJSR may be able to take you in, but I got thinking about it and since you released completely and (I'm making an assumption here) you didn't join the PRes, that you are not going to be considered "green" when it comes to being deployable, and as far I remember, pers have to be green to be posted here.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 16, 2010, 13:37:17
Would 2 EW have posistions?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 16, 2010, 13:42:34
Would 2 EW have posistions?

They do have Sig Op positions, but I don't know what their "readiness" status would be at.  As far I know, Sig Ops there are more like training aids and don't deploy that much.

Oh, BTW, its 21 EW Regt now, not 2 EW Sqn
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 16, 2010, 18:26:41
Would 2 EW have posistions?

I would not recommend this posting to a worst enemy of mine.

There are 13 positions at this unit for SigOps currently (none available) and I have no idea how they'll be broken down after ACISS.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on November 16, 2010, 18:47:01
I would not recommend this posting to a worst enemy of mine.

Bad enough that somone would be better off at JSR? That must be bad....

Walking towards JSR reminds me of that scene in Quest for the Holy Grail when they arrive at Camelot...

"Behold! The joint signals regiment!"
"JSR!"
"JSR!"
[brief song and dance number featuring sig ops tap dancing on a large sat dish]
"On second thought, let's not go to JSR. Tis a silly place."

(Though in fairness, I only spent a month there, twas a silly place)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 16, 2010, 19:56:18
Ok, now that was funny!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on November 17, 2010, 04:02:21
I was going to say that CFJSR may be able to take you in, but I got thinking about it and since you released completely and (I'm making an assumption here) you didn't join the PRes, that you are not going to be considered "green" when it comes to being deployable, and as far I remember, pers have to be green to be posted here.

Not for the last three posting cycles.  They trialed it APS '08 and have continued it since.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 17, 2010, 11:01:29
Not for the last three posting cycles.  They trialed it APS '08 and have continued it since.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on November 18, 2010, 12:03:55
I appreciate the reply.
I did confirm with a friend in JSR who advised being green is not required. When I was posted frm CMTC to JSR the only Green I had was BFT.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: greydak on November 22, 2010, 13:21:19
I'm in the process of doing a component transfer to Line Technician and I just got an email from the Component Transfer Section in Ottawa saying that I have to go for an interview at my local recruiting centre to start the process for “MOSID 00110 LCIS TECH - TEC SICT”

   Does anyone know if the sig trade amalgamation has anything to do with this seeing as I didn't choose LCIS Tech as a trade, I asked for Line Tech.

Also assuming this is due to the amalgamation, what are my chances if I do transfer to LCIS Tech, that I will still end up a lineman?

Thanks
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 22, 2010, 13:31:28
Lineman is full up, and has been for a while. You're being offered LCIS because its undermanned, but is in the C&E Branch.

Your chances are pretty slim that you'll end up a LST (the new Lineman name) if you join ACISS, as LST will be filled with members already trained or waiting to be trained.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: greydak on November 22, 2010, 14:14:48
I asked the Wo in Ottawa and he said to "Check out the job descriptions on the CF recruiting web site" but im pretty sure the recruiting web site isn't up to date?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 22, 2010, 14:27:27
The screening process for pers posted to CFJSR may be reinstated for this APS
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: greydak on November 22, 2010, 14:44:14
So PuckChaser & JSR OP, since you seem to have a clue as to whats going on.. What would the process be like once I show up in Kingston?



 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 22, 2010, 15:48:31
So PuckChaser & JSR OP, since you seem to have a clue as to whats going on.. What would the process be like once I show up in Kingston?

Well, I can tell you that when I showed up here, I had already talked to the Career Manager, who informed me where I'd be going. 

If you do get posted here, you'll most likely show up in Dress of the day (CadPat), with posting message in hand.  You may or may not have a contact within the regiment who will meet you and show you were to go.  If you don't, you may stumble around blindly until someone sees that your lost, or you may walk up to someone and ask where the Regimental Orderly Room is.  If you do have a contact here, (s)he'll meet you at some predetermined location, and bring you to the ROR, you'll get a clearance card, maybe do some paper work there, then head down to the troop room and meet your part of your CoC, and the rest of the troop, then continue with the clearing in.

To be honest, its been some time since I've been in the troops, so I'm not really up to date on what happens when new pers arrive at the regiment.  Maybe someone who had recently dealt with new pers arriving could provide more info?  Anyone?  Was I close?

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 22, 2010, 16:36:39
I'm pretty sure he'll go to CFSCE before he ever has to worry about being sucked up into the mothership.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 22, 2010, 17:24:42
So PuckChaser & JSR OP, since you seem to have a clue as to whats going on.. What would the process be like once I show up in Kingston?

Since you're an OT you'll end up on PAT Platoon for a while. They'll put you in line for an ACISS DP1 course. If you've been preselected for a suboccupation, you'll go do DP1.1 right after. Otherwise after your DP1 you'll end up with a posting message somewhere, most likely HQ and Sigs. From there, your aptitude for various things and your work ethic could get you selected for a sub occupation if you want it. Otherwise you'll come back to CFSCE in 2 years or so and do DP2. In between DP1 and DP2, your unit will send you on courses if they need you qualified on specific kit.

Its gonna suck, but expect to show up on PAT Platoon and be bored. Real bored. There's guys who've been waiting for 6 months for courses. Use the time to get some OPMEs done, or take a course at the College downtown. Either that, or try to get tasked out to a unit as OJT.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 22, 2010, 17:38:47
I am SigOp QL3 trained.
I released a tad shy of 3 years ago(family reasons) after completing my contract.
I am rejoining.
I was advised by recruiters all trades are closed, however they just rx a message stating ACISS will have 20 positions open 1 Jan.

Because he is already QL3 trained, and has only been out for three years, I think that he'll be grandfathered, put into a new ACISS position, and not have to worry about going back to the school.  He very well could end up at the JSR.
But I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Baywop on November 23, 2010, 09:27:34
If you want the latest and greatest info on ACISS check out this link.
you must be logged into a DWAN computer to view the link.


http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/Selection%20Process/Home.aspx

some real good info there...enjoy
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 23, 2010, 10:04:11
Because he is already QL3 trained, and has only been out for three years, I think that he'll be grandfathered, put into a new ACISS position, and not have to worry about going back to the school.  He very well could end up at the JSR.
But I could be wrong.

You do realize your response was based on a post from Greydak correct?  Sigger is a different animal.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: zzyzx723 on November 23, 2010, 13:35:44
Its gonna suck, but expect to show up on PAT Platoon and be bored. Real bored. There's guys who've been waiting for 6 months for courses.

There are people there who have been waiting MUCH longer than that, as far as Sig Ops go. And that's even without mentioning the 291ers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on November 23, 2010, 15:29:00
You do realize your response was based on a post from Greydak correct?  Sigger is a different animal.

No, I did not.  So much for my attention to detail.  Maybe I should go back to reading posts only...Once again, I digress.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 24, 2010, 10:05:30
If you want the latest and greatest info on ACISS check out this link.
you must be logged into a DWAN computer to view the link.


http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/Selection%20Process/Home.aspx

some real good info there...enjoy

...aaannnnd it's the third time the link has been posted, so it's super redundant too!  :nod:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on November 24, 2010, 10:06:51
...aaannnnd it's the third time the link has been posted, so it's super redundant too!  :nod:

Well, we all know people don't want to go through 28 pages of a thread looking for the info they need.   ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 25, 2010, 17:07:39
For the reservists following this thread, I've received credible word (from someone working in the training development) that the res DP1 course will be 1 summer. They've cut material, taking a chance that the cut material can be taught either OJT at the units, generating useful Cl A training, or at the units if reservists are selected for deployment.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 28, 2010, 15:26:26
For the reservists following this thread, I've received credible word (from someone working in the training development) that the res DP1 course will be 1 summer. They've cut material, taking a chance that the cut material can be taught either OJT at the units, generating useful Cl A training, or at the units if reservists are selected for deployment.

Well, that will definitely help with pumping out more troops with trade quals faster, at least on paper. Still need experienced NCM's to do more hand-holding though than with the old trades; don't see how that can be avoided.

"Welcome back Pte, and good job on completing your QL3's. Now come over and help me get that LS setup for tommorow's tasking."

"Er, what's an LS, MCpl?" 

You just know something like that will eventually happen.  ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on November 28, 2010, 18:28:29
For the reservists following this thread, I've received credible word (from someone working in the training development) that the res DP1 course will be 1 summer. They've cut material, taking a chance that the cut material can be taught either OJT at the units, generating useful Cl A training, or at the units if reservists are selected for deployment.

One summer as in two, three, or four months? I remember QL3 being two months, then doubled to four.

Colour me skeptical as to whether teaching a full six month reg force course in three summers would have been an effective alternative.

I'm presuming the whateveryoucallit LCIS tech equivalent remains unavailable to the reserves? Has someone made the call that reserve line's going to be officially killed by amalgamation?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 28, 2010, 18:30:37
Figure 8-9 weeks. One summer as in time for High School students to complete their DP1 between 26 June and Labour Day.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on November 28, 2010, 18:34:19
Figure 8-9 weeks. One summer as in time for High School students to complete their DP1 between 26 June and Labour Day.

Excellent. Not having to train a new guy for three years of summers (at two months for BMQ/SQ, QL3 mod 1, QL3 mod 2) if his boss (or his wife) can't spare him for four months straight'll be a help.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 28, 2010, 18:41:35
Excellent. Not having to train a new guy for three years of summers (at two months for BMQ/SQ, QL3 mod 1, QL3 mod 2) if his boss (or his wife) can't spare him for four months straight'll be a help.

It'll help the reserves for sure, but if said reservist wants a tour or a Cl B callout in a Reg F signals unit, they may have a steep learning curve to cover the missing material.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 28, 2010, 18:43:16

I'm presuming the whateveryoucallit LCIS tech equivalent remains unavailable to the reserves? Has someone made the call that reserve line's going to be officially killed by amalgamation?

What I heard was that reserves will keep existing Sig Op & Line, and the equivalent whateveryoucallit names.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 28, 2010, 18:46:27
What I heard was that reserves will keep existing Sig Op & Line, and the equivalent whateveryoucallit names.

SigOp = ACISS
Line = LST
LCIS = CST
Computer Nerd = IST

 >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on November 28, 2010, 19:59:04
SigOp = ACISS
Line = LST
LCIS = CST
Computer Nerd = IST

 >:D

And which specialties, or whatever name you call these un-trades, are available to the reserves?

Reserve line survives, but they get to be trained as a QL3 sig op, with some sort of basic familiarization with line during their first summer of trades training? Pretty damned curious what that'll look like. I'd think that the timeline for training a lineman's going to be extended even more than it already is.

I appreciate the info, btw.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 28, 2010, 20:11:54
I'm not quite sure, but I'll ask my source next time I see them. If they're only planning the training for ACIS and LST, then its a good bet IST and CST won't be available.

You won't get DP1 linemen in one summer. There will be a DP1.1 course they they would have to attend the following summer, or OJT at the unit (note these are just my speculations).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 28, 2010, 20:38:13
SigOp = ACISS
Line = LST
LCIS = CST
Computer Nerd = IST

 >:D

Yeah, thanks for the names Puck. Just to clarify Res would have only ACISS and LST under the new naming convention, existing fully qualified Line will automatically become LST's and SigOp's have a choice of ACISS core or one of the other specializations. Existing Line can also sort of "remuster within the same trade" if you will be taking conversion training to other specializations, but this is left up to individual member choice.

Anyway, that's the word I got from my CoC, no idea if any of that is set in stone or still subject to future changes.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 28, 2010, 20:53:23
Sorry, adding to my last, it's my understanding that Res doesn't have the choice of CST, just like LCIS wasn't a trade available to Res.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on November 28, 2010, 22:42:01
I'm not quite sure, but I'll ask my source next time I see them. If they're only planning the training for ACIS and LST, then its a good bet IST and CST won't be available.

You won't get DP1 linemen in one summer. There will be a DP1.1 course they they would have to attend the following summer, or OJT at the unit (note these are just my speculations).

Thanks, I'm interested.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 29, 2010, 16:31:20
Yeah, thanks for the names Puck. Just to clarify Res would have only ACISS and LST under the new naming convention, existing fully qualified Line will automatically become LST's and SigOp's have a choice of ACISS core or one of the other specializations. Existing Line can also sort of "remuster within the same trade" if you will be taking conversion training to other specializations, but this is left up to individual member choice.

Anyway, that's the word I got from my CoC, no idea if any of that is set in stone or still subject to future changes.

To clarify your clarification.  SigOps will not have a choice of ACISS core or one of the other specializations as you imply.  SigOps will not be transferred into CST or LST.   SigOps will be transferred into the ACISS core, or IST.   

To add more clarification.... Current lineman will be transfered to LST, and some may go to IST.
Current LCIS techs will go to CST or IST

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on November 29, 2010, 23:25:35
To clarify your clarification.  SigOps will not have a choice of ACISS core or one of the other specializations as you imply.  SigOps will not be transferred into CST or LST.   SigOps will be transferred into the ACISS core, or IST.   

To add more clarification.... Current lineman will be transfered to LST, and some may go to IST.
Current LCIS techs will go to CST or IST

I stand corrected. Thanks Piper.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 30, 2010, 03:02:53
no probs.

Not looking forward to Jan 1 2011.   It will take some time for the dust to settle on this one.

Cheers,

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 30, 2010, 21:44:28
The draft TPs from the TP Writing Boards for the IST, CST and LST sub occupation DP3A courses all have a Reserve MOSID on the cover page which indicates to me that all of these sub occs are available to the PRes. Still haven't been able to confirm 100% from my inside friend, but looks promising.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on December 02, 2010, 15:36:41
...but looks promising.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jacobite30 on December 06, 2010, 21:08:52
Oh wow.  Where to start. Yikes would be a good word. 

So want to take bets on when Spec pay will go poof! after the treasury board takes another look at the trades.  Eliminate the core electronics training and you are taking that risk.  Try to convince them that the trade is technical enough to keep it.  Hopefully we can....

And to feed underborne trades with pers from another underborne trade.  How exactly does that work? The concept didn't work with the old SIS Tech trade. 

Who gets to decide who goes into what sub occ? If a recruit joins and goes ACCIS with the ultimate goal of going CST and gets told when he/she applies that that trade is full or ACCIS is too underborne then what options do they have?

Just a side note.  The very first briefing that I heard on this was in Ottawa over a year ago.  The MWO giving the briefing started off with "First of all, this is going to happen so you better get on board with it ." He looked pissed off right from the start. Nobody had said anything yet, we were waiting for him to start.  Came out beligerent right away.  He was a SIG OP. No barbs intended just pointing it out for info.  Who has the most to gain from this evolution?  History will be the judge I guess. Maybe those who didn't have spec pay to begin with.  Who knows. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 06, 2010, 21:16:33
That MWO was right. The people that dreamed this up don't take input from the troops that this change will affect. All they see is a "new capability" that they can tout to Combat Arms commanders, even though its gonna be the same damn operators, with the same damn skills just pigeonholed into specific jobs instead of being good at everything. We won't see if this is gonna work until a decade from now, and by then any of us that had a problem with it will be RSMs or retired, and someone will have shiny new bars because of it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 06, 2010, 21:35:19
And all of those pushing this needless change will be looking for an M in the Leading Change bubble. On that premis we should all receive the same points for changing our socks and undergarments once a day.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jacobite30 on December 06, 2010, 21:50:00
LOL.  I was actually told once when I was a MCpl that "nobody will get an M in ethics unless they are are the news the night before you give it to them!" 
So I told them great, get my M ready.  I'm going to rob a liquor store and call the cops on myself while i'm in the parking lot afterwards.  That should get me on the news.  :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mojo Magnum on December 07, 2010, 23:45:49
Always the optimist, I had high hopes for the spec.  Mainly because I was hearing realistic expectation from some old seasoned types.  However it seems it's not to be.   No poet for Siggy means no spec for Siggy.  And so, I have a new name, the same pay and the same job.  It is a struggle for me to believe that the next time I find myself employed at location A where there are no new pers,  I wiil not be expected to do some jobs because of my "new name" but expected to other jobs.   I have strong suspicions that what I will see at location A is the same people, with the same skills doing the same jobs.  With a shiny new name and a possible survey annually on how I like my new career. 

At least they didn't call us Cist.  I don't think I could face a Monday knowing I shared a name with an undesireable growth.  But despite all our cranky jabbering, this is still the best job I've ever had.  I love it, but damn the spec would've been nice.

Merry Christmas!!

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: wiking on December 09, 2010, 20:21:47
Anymore info on the ACISS amalgamation...Im at BMQ right now and am going LCIS TECH....Thanks for your help....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 09, 2010, 20:35:30
Anymore info on the ACISS amalgamation...Im at BMQ right now and am going LCIS TECH....Thanks for your help....

Sorry if it bursts your bubble, but way things are looking, you'll never actually be an LCIS Tech. As far as new information, this thread is pretty much all of the combined knowledge any of us have up to this point.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: wiking on December 09, 2010, 20:36:44
OK thank you Sir.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 09, 2010, 20:40:17
/best of luck in your training, and hopefully in short time you, as well as all of us, will get more answers
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 10, 2010, 12:14:38
If my crystal ball reads correctly, which i'm sure it will, in the short term we will hear alot of "we don't know" or "it hasn't happened yet"s. The only statement we could hope for in the long term is " We were WRONG, and it will go back to the way it was" But knowing how the Branch works, that statement will never be uttered, and the failure will fall on the shoulders of the soldiers. Just my  :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: wiking on December 11, 2010, 19:50:58
Well, I should be off to SQ right after BMQ here, so Im assuming I would be starting my trades training at the beginning of summer. Apparently, ACISS begins implementation in January????
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 11, 2010, 20:08:26
Don't count on either. I've seen guys at the school still waiting for their SQ, and they were QL3 qualified SigOps.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 11, 2010, 20:22:04
Don't count on either. I've seen guys at the school still waiting for their SQ, and they were QL3 qualified SigOps.

And if it's still anything like in May, not to mention the metric ton's worth of PATs waiting training
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 11, 2010, 21:27:41
And if it's still anything like in May, not to mention the metric ton's worth of PATs waiting training

After block leave they're getting scattered like leaves, won't be anyone around. From what I've heard they'll get pulled back for courses.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 11, 2010, 22:17:27
After block leave they're getting scattered like leaves, won't be anyone around. From what I've heard they'll get pulled back for courses.

S'good to hear. maybe now there'll actually be space to park
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 11, 2010, 23:20:42
Des,

Are you going on course again?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 12, 2010, 14:08:05
Des,

Are you going on course again?

Not to K-town, but maybe doing something there this summer. Though I'd much rather go to CFSAC again
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 12, 2010, 14:38:09
Sounds like work avoidance to me. See you tommorow
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Scone on December 14, 2010, 10:52:52
The COT selection board results are up in the Sharepoint site on the DWAN.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 13:08:47
Point 1:  DP1 is 75 Training Days
Point 2: LST, CST, IST and CISTM are sub Ocps, everybody (Line, Sig Op and LCIS) will be ACISS.  After the common DP1, if you are either ACISS Core or move into DP1.1 for LST, CST and IST.  However all do DP2.  After that there is a DP2.1 for ACISS Core, LST, CST and IST.  Then everybody comes back and does a common DP3.  When you are promoted to WO, if you are LST, CST or IST you leave those sub ocps and come back to the ACISS Core trade unless you qual for CISTM.
 
-Army, Navy and Airforce joined together in 1969....It's not going to work.......CF still here and working
-RCSC disbanded and trades join together with Air and Navy to form C&E Branch.....It's not going to work.......C&E Branch has 5000 pers and is one of the most important branchs in the CF.
-numerious tech trades joined together to form LCIS........It's not going to work........It did work.
-Rad Ops and Tel Ops amalga........It's not going to work..........It worked.
-ACISS.......It's not going to work........It will work.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 14, 2010, 13:25:27
-Army, Navy and Airforce joined together in 1969....It's not going to work.......CF still here and working

After many command reorganizations and creations, and a return to distinctive environmental uniforms, you mean...

Quote
-RCSC disbanded and trades join to gether with Air and Navy to form C&E Branch.....It's not going to work.......C&E Branch has 5000 pers and is one of the most important branchs in the CF.

Navy formed a part of C&E Branch?  News to me...NRadOps and Nav Sigs (now NavComm) as well as Naval Electronics Techs have no part in the C&E Branch.  ATIS Techs are members of the C&E Branch, but are akin to the red-headed step-child.

Quote
-numerious tech trades joined together to form LCIS........It's not going to work........It did work.

That depends on whether you're asking an LCIS Tech, or someone who got forced back to one of the operator trades.   ;D

Quote
-Rad Ops and Tel Ops amalga........It's not going to work..........It worked.

I can't comment on that one as I have no personal experience in the matter.

Quote
-ACISS.......It's not going to work........It will work.

That remains to be seen...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 13:25:50
Point 3, PAT Troop at CFSCE may soon be getting smaller.

Future plan in new year if approved - PATS posted to their units on OJT.  The unit loads them on SQ, Driver Training, etc.  Then they come back to CFSCE for their trade training.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 13:35:26
Your first point, all new organiziations, formations, units have growing pains, so will ACISS but that will pass.

Your second point, the Comm Research Trade is a purple trade with Navy pers.  The C&E Branch has members from all three services.

Your third point, most LCIS techs I know love being techs and have high morale and pride in their trade, (lol) they love to give it to the Sig Ops.

Your fourth point, Sig Op trade, works, I can speak first hand.

Your last point, ACISS after some growing pains, improvements, will work.  The officers and Snr NCMs will come up with the plan and in big letters THE TROOPS will make it work.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 14, 2010, 13:46:45
C/S 0, forgive me for asking, but can you elaborate somewhat on your background in the subject?  Your profile is empty - while it's not essential that you put anything in it, it does help a bit...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on December 14, 2010, 13:48:16
I have to agree with Occom on this one.  As for the Rad Op / Tel Op amalgamation.  Having dealt with some of the fall out, it hasn't worked quite the way that was planned.  First question I have to ask a great many folks is what side of the trade did they start in and when (IF AT ALL) did they do any Tac Rad training.   If the answer to the first question is Tel Op, then the answer to the second becomes critical as to where I'll put them to work.

I can't say that I know a whole lot of techs that are happy with what happened during their amalgamation, either.  That might be sour grapes from some that got shifted to a place that they weren't unprepared/trained for, but I leave it up to the LCIS folks to explain.

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this whole thing, but so far no one has offered anything even resembling a coherent plan as to where we're going or how this will change anything other than increase the common manpower pool that can be thrown at a problem in the hopes that it will go away.

As for the PAT idea.  That has the potential to be another train wreck in the making.  We're going to send a bunch of troops to units to get OJT when we can't even employ them because they lack certain qualifications.  Why does that strike me as the Branch or CFSCE shifting the problem out of their back yard into some one Else's to get rid of problem.  I realise that CFSCE is short staffed, but this isn't going to fix the problem either.  I can't see 1, 2, or 5 Sigs Sqn having the time or resources to train these troops.  Like wise I can see the ASG Sigs Sqn picking up the slack because they can barely keep up with the demands on their time and skills as it is.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on December 14, 2010, 13:52:36
Aren't the ASG Sqns going to disappear?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on December 14, 2010, 13:59:15
RumInt has it happening but I have yet to hear anything even quasi offical, and there didn't seem to be any hint of hit as the ISSO COnf / Training session that was held last week.

Watch and shoot I guess.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 14:02:37
I'm a SNR NCM at CFSCE and have been involed with the planning for the training of ACISS.  It's my job to make it work, I want to make it work and believe it will work.  I'll either find a way or make one.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 14:13:48
******As for the PAT idea.  That has the potential to be another train wreck in the making.  We're going to send a bunch of troops to units to get OJT when we can't even employ them because they lack certain qualifications.  Why does that strike me as the Branch or CFSCE shifting the problem out of their back yard into some one Else's to get rid of problem.  I realise that CFSCE is short staffed, but this isn't going to fix the problem either.  I can't see 1, 2, or 5 Sigs Sqn having the time or resources to train these troops.  Like wise I can see the ASG Sigs Sqn picking up the slack because they can barely keep up with the demands on their time and skills as it is.********

It's funny how earlier in this thread that posters were complaining that the training wait time is long and there are to many PATS.  We have a plan that we are going to try and once again it's the .....it's not going to work..... When these PATS are posted to their units they always wont be there but hopefully loaded on their courses.

I have an example.....two students that didn't pass there QL3 training were send to Petawawa for 4 months OJT.  When they came back they finished in the top third of their course.

These pers are posted to that unit.  So after they do finish DP1 they are going back to that unit.  I hope the units takes the time to develop and look after these troops because in the end it's their soldiers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on December 14, 2010, 14:26:39
I whole heartily agree that the units need to look after their people.  My main concern is that it's not going to happen because we won't be able to train them effectively.  The units don't have the time or people to dedicate to them the way that will be needed.  IF current employment restrictions on NON-SQ qualified troops are not relaxed or altered then a big part of what's needed for OJT will be missed.  For driver training, that might be different depending on how many driver instructors a given unit has and what the training schedule says.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 14, 2010, 14:28:29
I'm a SNR NCM at CFSCE and have been involed with the planning for the training of ACISS.  It's my job to make it work, I want to make it work and believe it will work.  I'll either find a way or make one.

That's an admirable attitude, but I hope you're not trying to bail out a sinking ship.  I, on the other hand, am extremely glad that I'm enjoying observer status for this shuffle.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on December 14, 2010, 14:44:57
Point 1:  DP1 is 75 Training Days
Point 2: LST, CST, IST and CISTM are sub Ocps, everybody (Line, Sig Op and LCIS) will be ACISS.  After the common DP1, if you are either ACISS Core or move into DP1.1 for LST, CST and IST.  However all do DP2.  After that there is a DP2.1 for ACISS Core, LST, CST and IST.  Then everybody comes back and does a common DP3.  When you are promoted to WO, if you are LST, CST or IST you leave those sub ocps and come back to the ACISS Core trade unless you qual for CISTM.

What's the objective for a common DP2?

Is a lineman supposed to be able to be a det commander for a couple sig ops and a dual-install?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 16:02:23
If you are a linemen now, you may still get to do a Linemen QL5 depending on how long you been in and where you are in your career.

The common ACISS DP2 now is based on a Signals Detachment.  However remember there is a DP2.1.  So a LST that comes off the common DP2 (he/she already had Core training on DP1, then LST DP1.1) will then go on the LST DP2.1 which is all about linemen quals.  The same for the ACISS Core, CST and IST, they have their own DP2.1.

On the Sig Op side there are 3 Sig QL5 course left to run.  One in Jan and two in Feb that will match up with the last Sig Op QL3 legacy crses.  The first two crses of ACISS DP1 start on 5 Jan 11.  The first two ACISS DP2 courses will match up with these DP1s in Apr/May.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 14, 2010, 16:15:50
C/S 0, you must be one of the cherished few in the CF that have an intimate knowledge of how ACISS is going to work. A HUGE problem with this amalgamation is the total lack of information coming down the chain to the troops, which is just turning people off the process. The career shop doesn't even know whats going on, and you would think they'd be the first people with the info.

Yeah, ACISS might work - in 10 years. Right now and for the next 5-10 years it will be a gong show and force a whole lot of extra work onto the shoulders of the MCpls and Sgts in the trades (who are already working hard because we're under PML).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 17:31:05
That's why I decided to post - alot of misinformation, misunderstanding and misconception on this thread.  You are right that the chain-of-command should of done a better job with the passing of information and keeping the troops updated.  Call it fear of the unknown.

For the new pers coming in it will be easier to adapted to ACISS, they have no bagaged as those of us already in the trades.  Really for the DP1 and 1.1 it will be training as per norm at the School.  DP1 a common QL3 for the Sig Ops, Linemen and LCIS techs now call ACISS Core.  Then followed by DP1.1 for the IST, LST and CST which is basicily the info the LST and CST need to know to go down that career path of what was a Linemen, LCIS Tech or for the IST now a Sig Op/LCIS Tech that is working in a Server Det or IS Service/Help Desk.

The DP2 may be more of a challenge to get the balance right for CORE training when the ACISS/LST/CST/IST are thrown back together.  In DP2.1 they will divide again and will conduct their sub Ocp training.

For those that are Cpls/MCpls now on 1 Jan if your a Linemen you are now ACISS Sub Ocp LST doing the same thing you were doing on 31 Dec, no change.  The same for the ACISS Core guy (ex sig op) and the CST guy (ex LCIS).  IST is a little different because you are joning Sig Ops and LCIS Techs into the same Sub Ocp.

For Sgt, this the SME rank in the ACISS Core, IST/LST/CST sub Ocps.  For WO's they are now back to ACISS CORE unless they go CISTM which may be about 10% to 20% of that rank level.  Sgt's are the SMEs that will solve the line, radio, svr problems, etc.  WO's are man management.  In Theory an ex LST Sgt can be the Tp WO for A Tp CFJSR because he had the Core training in DP1, DP2 and DP3.  This will help in the future with some of the shortages in the PML.

There may be some rough water ahead but we are not going to sink.  Will it take 10 years I don't thing so, depends on the leadership in the Branch, The School, The Field Force and some of the people reading this thread on the forum now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 17:46:30
REF Reserve Training

DP1 will be one summer only for the reserves IIRC about 49 training days.  Some training will be done before hand by DL or at the unit level.  The TP is slightly different from the Regular Force.  For example the Reserve Comms don't have the SAM/SAS equipment like the Regular Force so that part of the TP does not apply to the reserve training.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on December 14, 2010, 18:19:52
Just to reiterate, ACCIS will not be a success if the the feild force doesn't do thier part when they recieve the DP-1s. My concern is that not enough liason between CFSCE and the rest of the Army has been done. I have spoken to some in the Bdes and they are totally out of the lop when it comes to what they will be responsible for when it comes to preparing DP-1s to return for further trg. Ack, there will be growing pains, but resistance is futile. The can't do attitude is only going to be to the detiriment of the new soldiers going through the process.
I think it's time to drop the what ifs and get on with what has to be done to make it successful. It's now out of our hands.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 19:10:48
Just so there is no misuderstanding CFSCE does not control ACISS.  ACISS is part of the MES project in some directorite in Ottawa.  What CFSCE is in control of is the training part of ACISS Dp1, 1.1, 2. 2.1, 3, etc.

What the field force will be receiving from CFSCE in the DP1 Qual Pte is basicily a Sig Op minus.   It is my understanding that between the Pte's choices, apatitude test at CFRC, his performance on DP1, the OJT he does at the unit and the needs of the service will be the factors when his name goes to a merit style board (at unit level maybe, career shop maybe?) will decide if that per stays at ACISS Core or goes to LST/CST/IST.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FreeFloat on December 14, 2010, 19:47:32
I'm watching this thread with piqued interest as I currently have a CT request in for "LCIS."   (Fully cognizant of the fact it'll be ACIS - or is that ACISS? - that I'll be offered once the dust settles).  My question:  What about POET training?  Where will it fall into the scheme of things, or are they somehow planning to do away with it altogether?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 14, 2010, 20:22:08
ACISS Op

I'm not a tech but it is my understanding that there still will be a POET but it has a new name.  Also the COAs being looked at is if to have POET before or after DP1.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 14, 2010, 20:35:53
The POET will be a shorter course of 66(?) days called FET or Fundamental Electronics Training. Once a person has been selected for CST Sub Occ, they have to go on FET and pass to do the CST DP1.1
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 15, 2010, 12:25:43
Looking back through the thread I don't see any "mis-information" only a bunch of info starved troops frightened of the Cepacol to fix a gaping flesh wound senario.  Perhaps the marketing team should have been dispatched a little earlier.  I also can't wait to add "making it work" to my PER brag sheet (I can see the T-shirts now "MES making it work since 2011"), that and a pocket full of broken promises should set me on the fast track.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 15, 2010, 13:11:55
I'm trying to look at this whole thing optimistically, and having helped write the core DP2.1 TP, I don't want to see it fail. However, here's my personal take.

Pro's:

- seperation of operator and IS specialist
- basic background on a little of everything (can flip side to a con as well)

Cons

-  a training environment that creates people with a little bit of knowledge on a lot, as opposed to a lot on less. Basically, max supervision required.
- The training establishment pushing more training responsibility out to operational units (Maybe a little easier post-Afghanistan, but with the current op tempo of 1 Sqn deployed, one in the chamber and one coming back, plus Bde support, I'm expecting to see a lot of difficulty wrt monitoring & managing OJT)

One big one I see is lack of reflection on the MES change at out-unit establishments.

For the most part, several sig ops in a Sigs Pl/Tp at a first-line field unit will wear multiple hats. Your Alt CP Commander may also be your IS supervisor. Back in garisson, your RRB det member could work IS helpdesk. It's not an environment where you want someone who's fresh out of the grinder and requires max supervision. Now we're getting into an environment where it's going to take someone at least 3 years before they're qualified in IS, and can move into the say, the 1 IST position of an Armoured Regt. Did the field force get asked "What is your unit going to need? How many ACISS core/IST/CST?" What level was the input, if any? Who decided who gets how many of what?

Another Con I'm seeing is retention. How many guys in the last few years are getting out after their VIE because they've spent it sitting around. Now we're getting into a situation where someone who wants to be a tech is being told "well, you MIGHT become a tech, but it's probably going to be at least 2.5/3 years before we actually decide you will be and send you on your training. But no guarantees". For something that's supposed to help fill the ranks, I'm expecting to see a lot of young new Sigs get real jaded, real fast.

Once again, I'm optimistic, and hopeful, because the train is already rolling. I just hope all the tracks are laid before we hit the next station, or things'll get ugly.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 15, 2010, 13:17:56
Looking back through the thread I don't see any "mis-information" only a bunch of info starved troops frightened of the Cepacol to fix a gaping flesh wound senario.  Perhaps the marketing team should have been dispatched a little earlier.  I also can't wait to add "making it work" to my PER brag sheet (I can see the T-shirts now "MES making it work since 2011"), that and a pocket full of broken promises should set me on the fast track.

Could add: "Designed and ran continuation training with no CFSCE input" as well. Individual units are going to be left holding the ball to get all the old pers up to speed so they don't fail their next career course because CFSCE has washed its hands of any of that. Then again, you're going to need a good brag sheet to have to fight through the hundreds of people now going to be merit listed right along side of you in the Snr NCO stream.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on December 15, 2010, 13:24:21
For example the Reserve Comms don't have the SAM/SAS equipment like the Regular Force so that part of the TP does not apply to the reserve training.
Do you mean they don't have the equipment at all, or that they don't have the same equipment? If you mean the former, it's news to me and I'm disappointed to hear that the Res might lose access to this training.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on December 15, 2010, 13:33:04
Do you mean they don't have the equipment at all, or that they don't have the same equipment? If you mean the former, it's news to me and I'm disappointed to hear that the Res might lose access to this training.

Since the change over to TCCS and the loss of all that Legacy Comms equipment, all Trades of the Reserves have been doing without, or with very little.  Training deltas are growing between Res and Reg trg on all fronts. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 15, 2010, 13:33:56
Do you mean they don't have the equipment at all, or that they don't have the same equipment? If you mean the former, it's news to me and I'm disappointed to hear that the Res might lose access to this training.

I imagine it's due to SAM/SAS changing again, and I'm doubtful the res will see the MCR/EPLRS system in the near future. I expect you'll see augmentee's getting trained on it as the need arises.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on December 15, 2010, 13:51:20
Could add: "Designed and ran continuation training with no CFSCE input" as well. Individual units are going to be left holding the ball to get all the old pers up to speed so they don't fail their next career course because CFSCE has washed its hands of any of that. Then again, you're going to need a good brag sheet to have to fight through the hundreds of people now going to be merit listed right along side of you in the Snr NCO stream.

Up to speed on what? The info in the TP hasn't changed, and if people are worried about failing career crses it's not the Unit who has to bend over backwards to make sure they are ready. It's the individual that has to take a good portion of the responsibility to make sure THEY are ready for a career crse. It's not like it's going to be a surprise to them.
Maybe some should be less concerned about what they think is "owed" to them in the way of a handout, and spend a little more time being part of the solution, and not part of the problem. OMFG I hate ladder climbers...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 15, 2010, 14:10:01
Do you mean they don't have the equipment at all, or that they don't have the same equipment? If you mean the former, it's news to me and I'm disappointed to hear that the Res might lose access to this training.

For the average res sig op who did QL3 in the brief period where SAS was taught, it was a waste, they're never going to see it again (I say average, if you do a tour, or transfer to the regs, or somthing else, sure, you'll see it again, but again for the average operator, what they learned and haven't used will be gone courtesy of skill fade). I've never been trained on it (Tinkered a bit with sending LOC via a CI, but that's the max we can do with the kit we've got)

As much as I hate to see a gap between the regs and the res as far as trade courses go, if the res units don't hold it, and aren't likely to hold it in the near future, they shouldn't train on it. Time saved on stuff they're not likely to see can either be spent on somthing else, or used to cut the length of the course... utimately, for the reserves, the shorter we can make the course, the wider we open ourselves to for a recruiting pool.

Take the mechanic trade for example, there are a lot of unqualified reserve mechanics, with just an EME common course, because so few can manage to make time for the 9 months or so it takes for the trades course.

Conversely, if it were up to me, there'd be a good week on the QL5 course on cimic, and interoperation of communications with civillian agencies. That would be useful to a reserve sig-op.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 15, 2010, 19:34:34
What I mean as misinformation is that there are posters on here throwing around their opinion based on assumption, attitude and no knowledge of the facts.  IE reserve training will be two summers in DP1 and the ACISS course is 70 days, etc.  Although that may not be their fault, the chain of command did a bad job passing on info.

As for this

Could add: "Designed and ran continuation training with no CFSCE input" as well. Individual units are going to be left holding the ball to get all the old pers up to speed so they don't fail their next career course because CFSCE has washed its hands of any of that. Then again, you're going to need a good brag sheet to have to fight through the hundreds of people now going to be merit listed right along side of you in the Snr NCO stream.

How has CFSCE become responsible for unit training and how is CFSCE responsible for people currently in their trades for failing when they come back.  If you are a Sig Op, Linemen, LCIS tech there is no change except the name, your still doing the same thing. 

As for the comment on the marketing team, I don't need to market ACISS, it will be here on 1 Jan, like it or not.  Time to stop crying about it, show a bit of leadership and lead change (for those of you worried about your PER) and carry on.

For those that are worried about merit list for this year it will be based on the old trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on December 15, 2010, 19:45:44
What I mean as misinformation is that there are posters on here throwing around their opinion based on assumption, attitude and no knowledge of the facts.  IE reserve training will be two summers in DP1 and the ACISS course is 70 days, etc.  Although that may not be their fault, the chain of command did a bad job passing on info.

As for the comment on the marketing team, I don't need to market ACISS, it will be here on 1 Jan, like it or not.  Time to stop crying about it, show a bit of leadership and lead change (for those of you worried about your PER) and carry on.

Well, that's the thing isn't it? I've passed on the information I've gotten to my guys in the dribs and drabs that I've received it in, and more in depth once I got more details. Yet here we are, 2 weeks before the event, and people still have these questions.

Granted, this may be a passage of information issue somewhere, but there's a disconnect somewhere between the lofty greatest-thing-since-sliced-bread cloud, and the bitter "This smacks of previous f'ed up amalgamations"

I'm just gonna wait and see with optimistic bated breath.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 15, 2010, 20:07:05
For sure there will be a transition period - but it won't be 10 years.  For most qualified QL3 pers now they will get onto a legacy QL5.  For those Sig Ops that don't there is hardly any change in the TP.  For the Linmen and LCIS guys that miss out on the last few QL5's yes they may have to do some Sig Op style training.  We will Cross that bridge when we get there and if there is no bridge we will build one.  May be something along the lines of the old QL4 package.

For these new courses of DP1, 1.1, 2, etc - the TPs are not written in stone.  This is a new trade with new TPs and master lesson plans.  If after the first ACISS course there are more days required or training we want to emphasize more we can do that.  CTC Gagetown knows this.

Anyway gents this will be my last post, come Jan it will all be academic anyway, ACISS will be here.  There is a lot of gloom out there but if you are already qualified in your trade I'll bet you won't even notice the change except your called something else.

Merry Christmas.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: dan7108 on December 15, 2010, 20:12:19
REF Reserve Training

DP1 will be one summer only for the reserves IIRC about 49 training days.  Some training will be done before hand by DL or at the unit level.  The TP is slightly different from the Regular Force.  For example the Reserve Comms don't have the SAM/SAS equipment like the Regular Force so that part of the TP does not apply to the reserve training.

Since when? Every CPIC/VIC configuration truck now has CI and DAGR mounts with all the appropriate cabling in our Res unit and has for more than two years. After that all you need is a terminal (CF-30), CI-terminal cable, and appropriate software (SAM5/SAS) all of which we acquired with relative ease.

I'm pretty sure all Res units are equipped with the same capabilities. The reason it never gets used is because most of the senior members are ignorant of the capability. This ignorance will now be perpetuated with the new DP1 and this expensive equipment will go unused. Shame.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on December 15, 2010, 20:27:48
dan7108

I doubt that, I've worked with some Reservists and they didnt know how to program a freq into a 522 since all their unit did was HF and not Tac Rad.


As for the SAM/SAS thing, my impression was that it was on it's way out, last time I used it in Canada was 07, and we really didn't use it overseas, and haven't since we returned.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 15, 2010, 21:22:13
Anyway gents this will be my last post, come Jan it will all be academic anyway, ACISS will be here.  There is a lot of gloom out there but if you are already qualified in your trade I'll bet you won't even notice the change except your called something else.

Its probably a good thing, since you weren't here for a discussion anyways.

As for the SAM/SAS thing, my impression was that it was on it's way out, last time I used it in Canada was 07, and we really didn't use it overseas, and haven't since we returned.

I believe the move is to Battleview, but SAM/SAS did just get a facelift onto a Windows platform to make it easier to use for the operators. The stuff is out there, getting it is another story. Its almost getting fun to answer the Ops O's question of "Isn't there a way you guys can plot the vehicle's position on a map and put it on a projector?" with "You mean SAS? Yeah, that would be easier than the map bird table.".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on December 15, 2010, 21:31:00
but SAM/SAS did just get a facelift onto a Windows platform to make it easier to use for the operators. The stuff is out there, getting it is another story.

Yea forgot about that, heard about it awhile ago, and I remember the SAM/SAS kit being taken out of all the vehicles, but that was all we were at, dunno if things have changed in the last while and the new kit is at the Battalion or not.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: NavyShooter on December 15, 2010, 21:40:24
The past couple of pages are sounding eerily familiar to me....we're doing the Weapons Engineering Technician rollover next year.....I'm seeing that there's a LOT of equipment/OJT training being pushed away from the school (current QL3 applications/equipment trg is 60-90 days, new is planned to be 42) with increased OJT requirements, while we're about to lose almost half our platforms for the CPF FELEX program. 

It sounds like there's interesting times ahead for you guys too.....I'm tagged into this one for interest's sake.

NS
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 15, 2010, 21:47:21
Yea forgot about that, heard about it awhile ago, and I remember the SAM/SAS kit being taken out of all the vehicles, but that was all we were at, dunno if things have changed in the last while and the new kit is at the Battalion or not.

That was the PDT-D and PDT Printer mounts I believe. I'd rather the desk space in my radvan anyways, only PDT I've ever seen was in the crypto vault and that's getting replaced with a CF30 shortly.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: dan7108 on December 15, 2010, 21:54:57
dan7108

I doubt that, I've worked with some Reservists and they didnt know how to program a freq into a 522 since all their unit did was HF and not Tac Rad.


As for the SAM/SAS thing, my impression was that it was on it's way out, last time I used it in Canada was 07, and we really didn't use it overseas, and haven't since we returned.

You doubt what? The FACT that I just told you Reserve units have the capability? Or that most reservists don't know how to use the equipment because it hasn't been part of their trades courses (save for the last few years)? I don't know what you are getting at.

Your comment about some reservists not knowing TCCCS is just anecdotal and only reflects a couple of people who probably used the "My unit only does HF" as a poor excuse for their lack of trades skills. I hear the same thing every summer I teach in Kingston. Fact is, every Res unit has VHF TCCCS capabilities.

I used SAS overseas in 2008, and the Bn's are now using SAM5/Battleview. Either way, its just a change in the software. The hardware remains the same: CI, Radio, DAGR, Terminal and appropriate cabling. All of which reserve units have, and have had for a while.

My point is, we have kit at our units which our new soldiers will not be trained on. It seems like a waste to me.



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 15, 2010, 22:10:45
That was the PDT-D and PDT Printer mounts I believe. I'd rather the desk space in my radvan anyways, only PDT I've ever seen was in the crypto vault and that's getting replaced with a CF30 shortly.

We had 5 printers.... only 2 vehicles with mounts... never a PDT though....

On the subject of terminals for SAS, I can assure you, we don't have one, despite asking for one. (Now I have no idea who said "no", but I know the materials have been requested)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 15, 2010, 22:20:04
Jesus and Mary in a bucket.  If you guys are going to be talking all bits and bytes in the combined DPs I've got my work cut out for me.  Especially considering I'm only concerned with my PER (have to work on my sarcasm, did everybody catch it this time  :) ).  Where are all the Linemen so I can have an incomprehensible argument about tension specs on the 89J or an online drinking contest?  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on December 15, 2010, 22:20:53
Its probably a good thing, since you weren't here for a discussion anyways.
You might want to watch who you are directing your smartass remarks to...I don't recall ever seeing you at any of the implementation meetings.


I believe the move is to Battleview, but SAM/SAS did just get a facelift onto a Windows platform to make it easier to use for the operators. The stuff is out there, getting it is another story. Its almost getting fun to answer the Ops O's question of "Isn't there a way you guys can plot the vehicle's position on a map and put it on a projector?" with "You mean SAS? Yeah, that would be easier than the map bird table.".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 15, 2010, 22:24:40
or an online drinking contest?  ;D

Do you really think any of us would be opposed to that? Perhaps a discussion of the rules in the Radio Chatter forum is in order...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on December 15, 2010, 22:43:17
Where are all the Linemen so I can have an incomprehensible argument about tension specs on the 89J or an online drinking contest?  ;D

I'm not a Lineman, but I will accept your drinking contest challenge.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 15, 2010, 22:52:08
You might want to watch who you are directing your smart *** comments to...I don't recall ever seeing you at any of the implementation meetings.

I have to agree with PC...some nameless big head who deigns to grace us with his presence for a quick one way conversation does not win my respect either.  This is a forum and all topics are open for debate...just because we come here to vent (something we wouldn't have to do if the Branch opened up a proper dialogue) does not mean we go back to work and face the troops with anything other than solidarity and support for the CoC.  It would help if the answers weren't locked away in some sanctimonious guys head but were readily available on...oh...I don't know...a share point site.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 15, 2010, 22:55:34
...and with that...TO THE BEER FRIDGE BATMAN !!

Only 1 rule:  last guy to fall down wins.  :blotto:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on December 15, 2010, 23:00:08
...and with that...TO THE BEER FRIDGE BATMAN !!

Only 1 rule:  last guy to fall down wins.  :blotto:

I thought (s)he bought the next round?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 15, 2010, 23:00:47
That seems unreasonable, we can clearly continue to drink after falling down. Perhaps the last one to fall off the floor?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 15, 2010, 23:52:39
********I have to agree with PC...some nameless big head who deigns to grace us with his presence for a quick one way conversation does not win my respect either.  This is a forum and all topics are open for debate...just because we come here to vent (something we wouldn't have to do if the Branch opened up a proper dialogue) does not mean we go back to work and face the troops with anything other than solidarity and support for the CoC.  It would help if the answers weren't locked away in some sanctimonious guys head but were readily available on...oh...I don't know...a share point site.********

"some nameless.."
You guys are all nameless to me, isn't that why we have forum names?

"big head"
I do have a big head, sometimes I have to turn sideways to get into my office

"one way conversation"
I don't believe the conversation on this forum is one way, we just don't agree with each other

"vent'
go ahead and vent but remember there may be younger members reading this that may take away the wrong idea

"support the CoC"
glad to hear it

"the Branch opened up a proper dialogue"
That's something we do agree upon

"answers weren't locked away"
I don't have all the answers and my position is not important

"sanctimonious"
I must admit I had to look that one up, though anyone who knows me would tell you I am far from a saint.  Not bad for a linemen.

We all see ACISS in a different way, that's fine, no point in arguing.

Does it have to be beer why not Rye?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 16, 2010, 00:05:31
C/S 0,

Glad to see you're back.  Please continue to enlighten us...who knows, you could be the one to swing the tide of opinion in your favour, and the masses of mushed together tradesmen (ACISS) will rise up and supplant the statue of Mercury at the Vimy gate with one of you.  ;D

You have some catching up to do, better make those rye doubles.

P.S.  I even read a book once...imagine that.  ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on December 16, 2010, 00:40:58
Challenges

Sig Ops, LCIS Techs and Linemen all have their own identies and espirt de corps.  I think ACISS is a bigger deal to the LCIS and Linemen. 

For the Sig Op not that much of a change.  A chance for those that like the IS world to move into IST.  For me I am going to be ACISS Core.

For the LCIS Tech it is about the big question of spec pay.  If spec pay ends at the Sgt rank and you go back to the ACISS Core as a WO, there is no pay raise, unless you are one of the few that go CISTM.  So two career options - stay a tech for your career or move into the SNR leaderhip ranks if you want to be a SSM, RSM etc.

For the linemen I think it is about their identity.  Your an LST up to the rank of Sgt.  When you move to WO you could be in charge of a Radio Troop or a Base/Station TIS department.  We have WO', MWO's and CWO's that are linemen now but in the future when they are ACISS who will look after the traditions of the line trade?  It is the SNR NCO's job to ensure traditions don't die.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on December 16, 2010, 22:21:54
Traditions are one thing, but there are a great many of us who see this as an attempt to kill both tech trades and line trades period, and a cheap and dirty trick by the army to make more sig ops... from a paper perspective, both techs and linemen can be replaced by contractors... which in turn of course leads to a serious loss of capability, but looks good on a budget line...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: NavyShooter on December 17, 2010, 13:12:05
Wellll......as of yesterday's meeting with the Career Mangler, I'm no longer an Acoustic/Sonar tech, I'm now a Radar tech.....I'm still thinking about that....18 years of being a Sonar guy, and now that's all gone....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 17, 2010, 14:18:26
Wellll......as of yesterday's meeting with the Career Mangler, I'm no longer an Acoustic/Sonar tech, I'm now a Radar tech.....I'm still thinking about that....18 years of being a Sonar guy, and now that's all gone....

Meh, it's all the same.  Ping, pong, divide by two.   ;D

Kidding aside, the navy went through this back in the early '80s with MORPS and the operator/tech trades...and it didn't work.  Took decades to sort it all out, and now they're screwing with something that works again by bringing in this Weapons Engineering Technician silliness.  The Sig Op, Linemen and LCIS Techs are doing the same thing now.

The appropriate phrase here is:

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: NavyShooter on December 17, 2010, 20:28:55
Occam....

I concur with your assessment.  I got in after MORPS, so I missed that schmozzle.  This looks like it may end up being similar...

NS
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on December 20, 2010, 21:43:27

Your comment about some reservists not knowing TCCCS is just anecdotal and only reflects a couple of people who probably used the "My unit only does HF" as a poor excuse for their lack of trades skills. I hear the same thing every summer I teach in Kingston. Fact is, every Res unit has VHF TCCCS capabilities.

Not true, Dan.

Every reserve sig op is trained on TCCCS, sure. But up until this year, my unit literally had no VHF assets beyond three manpacks.

It was a pure HF unit, with no VHF training at the unit level. There were rare opportunities to apply Kingston-learned VHF skills on taskings if they sought them out, but that's hasn't been something the unit could plan training around.  Dedicated, deployable VHF assets have finally become available in just the last couple months.

Personnel are now assigned to a det and don't cross-train on equipment (VHF vs HF) other than on a "hey, that det's only got one guy this week, you give him a hand".

VHF skills can bleed in that scenario, though more along the lines of weak troubleshooting skills rather than not even being able to program the freqs above channel 1.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 01, 2011, 01:09:36
Happy new trade everyone!  :salute:  :'(
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 01, 2011, 01:11:08
Happy new trade everyone!  :salute:  :'(

Eastern time anyways.   ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 01, 2011, 12:09:22
And RIP to the LCIS, Line and Sig Op trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 01, 2011, 12:50:24
And RIP to the LCIS, Line and Sig Op trades.

Hear hear!

Maybe if we just don't use the new trade names in common speech, we can wish the transfer away. I'll always be a 215!!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 01, 2011, 15:09:07
Well I will tell you how it goes at the First ever CM brief in the new order :-X. They will be here in Edmonton 11-14 Jan 11. It should be interesting.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 01, 2011, 16:17:06
Mine was 14 December.... they had no information and would entertain no questions on MES. Postings/Promotions as usual. Seems like the good idea factory for MES is even keeping the CMs in the dark.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 02, 2011, 01:04:18
Well of course they would. But when it fails, it will be our faults for not putting enough behind it. You think the CM's would have more input as to the implementation.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: BenFG on January 05, 2011, 18:30:31
Allthough my last topic was closed I did get usefull information, so here I am again. I will try my best to avoid sounding self righteous but please dont comment saying to use the search function. If I have overlooked a post that answers my question i apologize, please link it below. This is a discussion board not a library right?

I know there have been lots of topics lately about this position.(probably do to with it being "in-demand" on the forces website) And I am aware that now under this new name (ACISS) there are 3 branches.
The only branch that interest me would be the "Operator" one. ( what used to be signal operator I guess )
Are you a "boot on the ground" in this job? ie: the guy with the radio on his/her back?
I know that they get soldier training after BMQ, but if I apply for ACISS could i get stuck behind a desk?

thanks in advance
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 05, 2011, 18:38:07
ACISS core occupation is the new SigOp minus computer stuff. Yes, you can be that guy with the radio, but you can also be working in a Coy/Sqn Command Post. If you want ACISS core, I don't forsee you being put into any other occupation, as its going to be the hardest one to fill up. Everyone wants to be a computer guy or technician, so there will be lots of spots open at HQ+Sigs for field-oriented soldiers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on January 05, 2011, 18:40:59
Topic LOCKED

Please go to the existing topic on ACISS so as not to be asking the same questions over and over again.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 07, 2011, 09:47:12
Before anyone suggests it, I have used the search and scoured the forums for posts. Unfortunately, most of what I found is full of acronyms and initialisms I am not familiar with so I'm hoping to get some simplified information.

I spoke with a recruiter yesterday about joining, and he mentioned that LCIS and SigOp had openings. Both interest me, with some preference for SigOp. He didn't, however, mention anything about the amalgamation of the two with Linesmen. So, for anyone that knows more than me: will choosing LCIS or SigOp have any effect on my career at this point, or will I be placed in the same pool of recruits?

Background info: HS diploma; Grade 11/12 Physics, Chemistry, Math; HS Computer Science; College Physics / Chem / Bio / Math; HS and College English.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 07, 2011, 09:58:32
SigOp and LCIS are recruiting because we're so undermanned. The amalgamation is supposed to help that manning level. If you want to be a SigOp, you'll join ACISS and tell your supervisor after your DP1 that you want to stay ACISS Core. Voila, you're a SigOp with just a different name.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 07, 2011, 10:01:37
As of right now it desn't appear that anyone outside of the trades affected has a clue about our plight. I'm sure that if you apply for either, that in the end when you get to CFSCE, the route you take will depend on what QL3 course is running. Right now the ACCIS QL3 is spooled up. But you have quite a while to reach that.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 07, 2011, 10:07:36
SigOp and LCIS are recruiting because we're so undermanned. The amalgamation is supposed to help that manning level. If you want to be a SigOp, you'll join ACISS and tell your supervisor after your DP1 that you want to stay ACISS Core. Voila, you're a SigOp with just a different name.

Thanks very much.

Are there courses to learn more of the tech stuff if I specialize in SigOp? I like the idea of "being able to take apart, fix, and put back together everything" (in the words of the recruiter), but I would prefer deployment to Computer Administrator duties.

Also, how often can I complete supplementary courses? I am hoping to learn a few languages as well; would I be using private language courses or are there CF-specific language courses?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 07, 2011, 10:08:55
As of right now it desn't appear that anyone outside of the trades affected has a clue about our plight. I'm sure that if you apply for either, that in the end when you get to CFSCE, the route you take will depend on what QL3 course is running. Right now the ACCIS QL3 is spooled up. But you have quite a while to reach that.

Thanks, it's reassuring knowing I won't be too constrained by my choice.

EDIT: (Sorry for the double-post, he replied while I was replying to the other post)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 07, 2011, 12:34:01
Thanks very much.

Are there courses to learn more of the tech stuff if I specialize in SigOp? I like the idea of "being able to take apart, fix, and put back together everything" (in the words of the recruiter), but I would prefer deployment to Computer Administrator duties.

Also, how often can I complete supplementary courses? I am hoping to learn a few languages as well; would I be using private language courses or are there CF-specific language courses?

If you want to be a computer admin, you want to be an IST which is a subtrade of ACISS. You'll get some tech training on your DP1, us old SigOps learned to do it through experience. French courses are offered, you'd be hard pressed to learn anything else through DND unless you're getting an embassy posting where you'll need it (few and far between).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on January 07, 2011, 12:44:16
How long until the Sig Op QL6 transitions? Anyone have any insight on the pros and cons of doing QL6A now or later?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 07, 2011, 14:14:05
New DP3A is shorter, but is supposed to be tougher. I'd take the one now. A month of sitting through lectures that the guest speaker doesn't even know what they're talking about, and a handful of assignments that are done in a group. Only difficult part for the SigOp 6A was the recce and siting portion, but I had someone get lost on their PC and still get 100%.

I don't know if they're even running anymore old QL6A courses, everything was supposed to be ACISS as of 1 Jan.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 07, 2011, 14:23:42
If you want to be a computer admin, you want to be an IST which is a subtrade of ACISS. You'll get some tech training on your DP1, us old SigOps learned to do it through experience. French courses are offered, you'd be hard pressed to learn anything else through DND unless you're getting an embassy posting where you'll need it (few and far between).

Sorry, when I said I "preferred deployment to Computer Administration duties", I meant that I prefer to be deployed instead of getting Computer Admin duties. It sounded right in my head, but the "to" kind of made it ambiguous.

Glad I'll be fluent in French. Guess I'll stick to private courses for everything else.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 07, 2011, 14:33:23
Gotcha, now you know what sub occupation not to go to.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 07, 2011, 14:43:18
Gotcha, now you know what sub occupation not to go to.  ;D

From earlier in the thread:
CST- Communication System Technologist
IST - Information Systems Technologist
LST - Line Systems Technologist

So IST is the LCIS spec, LST is the Linseman spec, and CST is the equivalent of SigOp?

Also, why is SigOp having such trouble with recruitment? Is it a matter of pay, or high demand in the Private sector stealing away recruits, or is it the job itself? EDIT: I ask because I really have no desire to return to the private sector, and don't care about the pay. I've always felt money was a poor way to judge personal worth.

Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 07, 2011, 14:51:41
CST = LCIS to fix everything but computers
LST = Linemen
IST = New idea, computer jobs of sigop and LCIS combined
ACISS Core = SigOp

SigOp has been undermanned for quite some time, as has LCIS. LCIS guys get private sector/public sector jobs fairly easily. SigOps have to be trained to do damn near everything, but don't get paid that way. Half the guys are qualified CISCO admins but can't get spec pay. Line is also moving into a more technical areas and would have need a look at spec to keep them competitive with the private sector in a few years, but they're attractive to Combat Arms remusters that want physical work but have a truck to take them everywhere. You could debate for hours why the SigOp trade isn't attractive to recruits (the total lack of accurate information in the recruiting system is my bet).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 07, 2011, 17:23:43
I can't see them making spec pay for LST, IST, or ACISS Core... don't get me wrong, if they did, that would be great, but, while an CST (LCIS) tech can leave the forces and easily make as much or more than they make in the forces, telecom linemen don't make great money civi side, neither does your computer tinkering type (There's far too many of them floating around as a result of the tech boom in the 90s).

There's also very little employability civi side for the skills of an ACISS Core.

Like I pointed out in another thread, spec pay has very little to do with specialization (No matter how much "they" may claim otherwise). If you can quit your job tommorow and easily make as much or more than you do in the forces, then you get spec pay.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on January 08, 2011, 00:30:18
telecom linemen don't make great money civi side,

You are consistently inaccurate. Civi side for line is quite lucrative. I have had no offers below $35/hr in all areas CF Lineman are trained. Coupled with my RCDD, it would be damn near impossible to not demand 6 figures. The only pain was taking my BICSI quals in Vegas and Florida, Oh FML.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 08, 2011, 00:36:59
You are consistently inaccurate. Civi side for line is quite lucrative. I have had no offers below $35/hr in all areas CF Lineman are trained. Coupled with my RCDD, it would be damn near impossible to not demand 6 figures. The only pain was taking my BICSI quals in Vegas and Florida, Oh FML.  ;D

I always stand to be corrected. That being said, the majority of civi telecom linemen I know are making $13-15 per hour.

I had to look up RCDD, wasn't familiar with the acronym, is that about a technologist level designation?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on January 08, 2011, 01:46:51
Where else can you find a guy/girl that builds towers and antenna, maintains them, designs and constructs heavy cable infrastructure (pole line, buried & underground), as well as does multi-pair copper splicing, fibre optic splicing and termination and to top it off does PBX frame work, coaxial install/testing and horizontal structure wiring design, install and QA?  I do understand that just one of those jobs may not be high paying (RCDD or design qualified individuals actually can pull down a bit of coin), but when you lump them together with the aforementioned increasing responsibilities you get something completely different.

Tell that to my boss... All that is exactly what I do now.. all for $14/hr.

I have not yet met a civvi Telecom lineman who makes anywhere near $35.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on January 08, 2011, 12:00:30
Point taken. As I am in Ontario, and only know a few civvy linemen in other parts of Canada.

However, it was not my objective to discuss job options, or what I do as a civvy lineman(a job I am not fond of[SigOp at heart]).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on January 11, 2011, 10:00:13
I don't know if they're even running anymore old QL6A courses, everything was supposed to be ACISS as of 1 Jan.
The CFSCE calendar for FY 10/11 shows two more intakes this spring.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 11, 2011, 18:06:56
The CMs also said it would be 3-5 years until all changes are implemented. So stand by to stand by.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 11, 2011, 19:35:08
Today the CFSCE Comdt briefed the first two ACISS DP1 courses on ACISS and took questions.

Points of Interest:

1. The proposal for Spec pay that went to the Treasury Board was for the three sub-trades: LST, IST and CST.  ACISS Core was not recommended for Spec Pay.

2.  As far as the comdt knows that when a member of the sub-trades are promoted to WO and go back to the Core Trade they keep their Spec Pay.  The Comdt is going to look into it.

A earlier poster was asking about the wait for DP1 (ie old QL3).  The wait will now be shorter.  We are going to Run 16 ACISS DP1 courses this year with a total of 24 per a course. That's 384 openings.  So things should go a little bit faster.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 11, 2011, 19:52:28
Today the CFSCE Comdt briefed the first two ACISS DP1 courses on ACISS and took questions.

Points of Interest:

1. The proposal for Spec pay that went to the Treasury Board was for the three sub-trades: LCT, IST and CST.  ACISS Core was not recommended for Spec Pay.

2.  As far as the comdt knows that when a member of the sub-trades are promoted to WO and go back to the Core Trade they keep their Spec Pay.  The Comdt is going to look into it.


1. What a surprise....not. The core trade has no specialised training at this point. Until it can prove that spec pay is required, Treasury Board will always say NO.

2. This is a no brainer, the member once promoted to WO hasn't become brain dead. His training to gain Spec pay is still relevant.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 11, 2011, 20:11:15
1. What a surprise....not. The core trade has no specialised training at this point. Until it can prove that spec pay is required, Treasury Board will always say NO.

Now I really hope you guys lose yours
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 11, 2011, 20:12:11
"1. What a surprise....not"

- Of Course but this is the first time that someone high in the chail command I have heard said no spec pay for ACISS Core.

Spec pay for the three sub trades has NOT YET been approved.

The list for ACISS is out for who is suppose to be IST and ACISS Core with a link to have the decision made on you reviewed. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2011, 20:13:24
Now I really hope you guys lose yours

Seconded, with all of the extra courses that need to be taken for Core persons to be relevant in the trade that aren't included in the DP packages, everyone should be getting spec. My OT will be the first in the pile if LST gets spec pay along with CST and IST but not Core occupation.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 11, 2011, 20:21:16
"2. This is a no brainer, the member once promoted to WO hasn't become brain dead. His training to gain Spec pay is still relevant."

I think the problem with above is that yes if a CST/LST/IST moves on into a CISTM position then by all means he is doing a tech job and should get tech pay.  However lets say for an example that Sgt ACISS and Sgt IST both get promoted to WO. They both are in charge of Sigs Troops, one with RCDs and one with RCRs.  They are both doing the same job and are the SME to the Sig O and Battalion/Regiment Commander.  Except the IST WO has Spec pay and the ACISS Core WO doesn't.

WE are back to the same problem we have now with Sigs Ops that are in LAN Dets and IS positions that don't get Spec pay and the LCIS in the same positions, doing the same job do.

As Puck Chaser just said, I think you are going to see a lot of remusters and review tabs hit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 11, 2011, 20:23:03
My OT will be the first in the pile if LST gets spec pay along with CST and IST but not Core occupation.

Come on over boys, be happy to have you...beers in the fridge!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 11, 2011, 20:39:00
Well, seeing that you may be getting Spec pay you should buy.  Get a bottle of Rye too.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2011, 22:46:50
I think the problem with above is that yes if a CST/LST/IST moves on into a CISTM position then by all means he is doing a tech job and should get tech pay.  However lets say for an example that Sgt ACISS and Sgt IST both get promoted to WO. They both are in charge of Sigs Troops, one with RCDs and one with RCRs.  They are both doing the same job and are the SME to the Sig O and Battalion/Regiment Commander.  Except the IST WO has Spec pay and the ACISS Core WO doesn't.

WE are back to the same problem we have now with Sigs Ops that are in LAN Dets and IS positions that don't get Spec pay and the LCIS in the same positions, doing the same job do.

C/S 0: I really thought you were just here to sell us the company line earlier, but I definitely agree with your above post and can tell you're concerned (like the rest of us) about how ACISS core will be treated by those of us that don't want to sit behind a computer terminal in an office.

The simple solution to this is Spec 1 for Core and Spec 2 for LST/IST/CST. Without Core gaining spec, there will be absolutely no attraction to have members want to stay in Core. The "faster promotion" gimmick doesn't sell it either, as numerous briefings have told us that CISTMs can move into Core leadership positions if need be. Why bother staying Core if you can just the same jobs a little bit later on but make more money in the process?

Then again, we're gonna be waiting 5 years for Spec Pay to even hit the Treasury Board radar. This might have all crashed and burned by then.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 11, 2011, 23:04:52
Spec 2 is a very exclusive club, and I think you can pretty much forget about any additions to the membership.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 11, 2011, 23:07:03
Solves that problem then.... either give everyone Spec 1, or give it to no one. People will still want to do the Sub Occupations, its the Core trade we're having problems recruiting and retaining for.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on January 11, 2011, 23:19:25
Isn't the catch is that people won't have a choice now, being core or one of the sub occupations?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 11, 2011, 23:22:50
"As Puck Chaser just said, I think you are going to see a lot of remusters and review tabs hit.

So why wasn't this considered when the whole MES was dreamt up? If all this is going to do is create issues between trades, then we haven't moved forward at all. And the MES was supposedly designed to fix the issues the Army had with the employability of the C&E trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 12, 2011, 08:09:28
The good idea train didn't get that far down the track...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 12, 2011, 08:56:29
Then the train should go back to the station until it has somewhere to go.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 12, 2011, 11:49:28
2.  As far as the comdt knows that when a member of the sub-trades are promoted to WO and go back to the Core Trade they keep their Spec Pay.  The Comdt is going to look into it.

I find it interesting that this little tidbit hadn't been brought out until after the ACISS sub-trade selection survey.

From what I remember of the ACISS brief, they were pushing for spec-pay for the entire super-trade. Wonder how many people will now be looking for reassessment now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 89Sharp on January 12, 2011, 13:22:58
I'm just gunna jump in and throw in my  :2c:....



I think that they could easily settle this matter by leaving the ACISS core at base pay and giving LST, CST and IST their appropriate Spec. Pay. At that point, you ARE specializing in a field, which means you should be getting specialist pay.

But like I said, that's just my  :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 12, 2011, 13:48:27
I find it interesting that this little tidbit hadn't been brought out until after the ACISS sub-trade selection survey.


Funny how this whole process is using hindsight instead of forsight. Its always too late to change your mind once you take the first step off a cliff.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 12, 2011, 14:33:37
It's time for a refresher course on Spec pay.  The article below is stolen from a 2005 edition of "Matelot", a Navy publication - though the policy applies equally to the Army and Air Force.  Any errors in it are probably a result of my converting it from a PDF to a text format...

Recently at the Directorate of Pay Policy and Development (DPPD) we have received a lot of questions about Specialist Pay, how it works and why it is paid. This article will help to answer some of those questions.

Historical Context – With the integration of the Army, Navy and Air Force into the Canadian Armed Forces in the late 1960s, trades were combined and their numbers drastically reduced. There were, however, numerous pay fields, which meant that members working side by side, in similar environmental conditions, sometimes with the same skill sets, were being paid differently. This caused great morale problems and led to the 1972-73 review and job evaluation process called the Canadian Forces Trade Evaluation Plan (CFTEP). As a result of this review, theca adopted an “institutional” pay system, meaning that everyone at the same rank, regardless of occupation, generally receives the same rate of pay. This is called the rank-based, team concept. In 1975, the team concept grouped the majority of all trades into one pay field: the Standard Trade Group. Nevertheless, given the market reality that certain trades require highly technical training and are therefore attractive to the private sector, two additional pay fields were added forth purpose of attraction and retention: Specialist 1 and Specialist 2 Trade Groups. Roughly one-quarter of NCM trades fall into the latter two categories.

How are occupations (MOCS) assigned to a pay group? – The CFTEP is a Treasury Board approved methodology similar to that used in the Public Service, that is used to evaluate an occupation’s predominant jobs (the descriptions of these predominant jobs are referred to as PJDs) for the purposes of assignment to a pay group. The CFTEP is a point score system. Nine factors are evaluated: Comprehension and Judgement, Trade Training and Experience, Responsibility sub-divided into resources, services and safety of others, Effort sub-divided into mental and physical effort and Working Conditions again sub-divided into environmental and hazards. 

The Technical Stuff – Job evaluations are completed by a board that usually consists of at least three members usually military officers who are trained in classification jobs and job evaluation who review the PJDs for an occupation based on the factors identified above and assign points. The PJDs are provided to the Directorate of Pay, Policy and Development (DPPD) by the occupation’s Branch Advisor and Managing Authority. An occupation’s predominant jobs are those that an experienced Cpl (normally a Cpl IPC 4,that is a Cpl with at least 8 years of military experience from enrolment) or MCpl is expected to complete on a regular basis within the occupation. When all predominant jobs within an occupation are evaluated, an overall occupation score is determined by calculating a weighted average for all Corporals employed in the predominant jobs. For example, if only25% of the members of an occupation performed a job that scored high enough to achieve Specialist (or Spec) Pay, whether or not the whole occupation would receive Spec Pay would be determined by the resulting mathematical score.

Occupationally Qualified – Until recently, technological limitations in the CF pay system did not allow a means of differentiating between “occupation qualified” IAW occupation specifications and “non-occupation-qualified” members for the purposes of pay. Therefore, if you became a Cpl in an occupation that was assigned to a Spec Pay Trade Group you were paid Spec Pay, whether you were qualified to do the job or not. The administration of Spec Pay was challenged in the 2003 Chief of Review Services Report on the basis that personnel who were not qualified were in receipt of Spec Pay. Consequently, changes to the CF pay system, and the introduction of the Occupation Structure Implementation Plan (OSIP) in Aug 04, have now afforded us the opportunity to rectify this situation in ensuring that Spec Pay is administered appropriately. As of 1 Aug 04, if you are not qualified to do the job in accordance with the occupation requirements and specifications provided by your branch’s Managing Authority, then you are not be entitled to receive Spec Pay,

Burning Questions – Here are some of the burning questions we often receive at DPPD:
“Although we are different occupations, right now I am doing the same job as another Cpl, how come my occupation is in the Standard Pay Group while his gets Spec Pay?”Based on the Treasury Board approved methodology of how we do job evaluations and the whole concept of the weighted average you can see that in the CF we do not pay members based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. In this case, although some tasks may be similar in different occupations, in order to receive Specialist Pay, the majority of members of a Spec Pay occupation must be doing jobs that score in the Spec Pay range in accordance with the CFTEP methodology.

“I know that my job requires more skills than another occupation’s jobs, how come we both get Spec 1 Pay, shouldn’t my occupation get Spec 2 instead?” Another important point to note is that it doesn’t matter whether an occupation just barely makes the score for Specialist 1Pay or scores almost but not quite high enough to achieve Specialist 2 Pay, they both receive Specialist 1 Pay. This follows the lines of high school grading in that a 79% is a B, as is a 71%.

“I used to be in the Reg F and my occupation received Spec Pay. Now I am in the Res F why don’t I get Spec Pay, I still hold the same qualifications?” There are two sides to the answer to this question. First, as mentioned earlier, the CF does not pay members based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. Although similar to those in the Reg F, Res F occupation requirements are not always exactly the same and therefore may not evaluate at the Specialist Pay Trade Group. Second, in order for an occupation to receive Spec Pay, it must have scored in the Specialist Pay range, and, it must be assigned to the Specialist Pay Trade Group by the CDS. In order for this to occur, the Branch Advisor or Managing Authority must have submitted it for evaluation. There are only seven Reserve occupations that have successfully undergone the process and been assigned to a Specialist Pay Trade Group.

All that to say - ACISS core will likely never qualify for Spec pay.  In my opinion, I personally doubt IST and LST will qualify for it either...as civvie street is not poaching linemen and IT-employed personnel from the CF in large numbers.  My $0.02...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 12, 2011, 15:11:07
Occam, are you in a ACISS trade? Or the Signals branch altogether? Its easy to say "You shouldn't get spec pay." without having done the jobs. I really doubt they're going to let one Sub Occupation get Spec Pay, and 2 others+core not get it. If that happens, why the hell did we amalgamate in the first place?

Spec for everyone, or spec for no one. My  :2c:.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on January 12, 2011, 15:11:48
I think its odd that current Sig Ops are up in arms with the "apparent" announcement that the Core branch will not receive Spec pay. 
I mean, you didn't get spec pay Dec 31.. what magically happened (other than a name change) on Jan 1st?  Did your micro market courses suddenly become national qualifications?    I don't buy the argument that Sig Ops are network admins.   ( last time I checked.... the networks we use in DND are administered in Ottawa, by civilians ! )  and... the network admin band wagon is over saturated on civie street.. those guys are a dime a dozen and are paid as such. (Senior admins are another story.)
 I don't have a hate on for Sig Ops.  There are a lot of outstanding and smart guys in that trade. But, we have to look at the bigger picture and the old trade as a whole... and what the new core occupation will be qualified and required to do.
I think there would be a bigger problem IF the core received the same pay as the sub occupations.    I mean, why would you want to go into a slower moving sub occupation with more training time, less promotions and make the same pay ?   

I think instead of waiting for someone to hand you spec pay at the snap of a finger, those complaining should OT.
I started out as an operator... thought that I knew everything and deserved Spec pay.  So, I put in for an OT.  Went back to CFSCE for 1.5 years ( POET and LCIS 3s then 204 / 208)

I am not a supporter of the MES program in the slightest.  It's a big mess that is going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on January 12, 2011, 15:13:33
I really doubt they're going to let one Sub Occupation get Spec Pay, and 2 others+core not get it.

Why not ?

Take a look at the AC Op trade. AC Ops who are PAR controllers get spec 1 while the core trade does not.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jacobite30 on January 12, 2011, 15:19:05
Occam, are you in a ACISS trade? Or the Signals branch altogether? Its easy to say "You shouldn't get spec pay." without having done the jobs. I really doubt they're going to let one Sub Occupation get Spec Pay, and 2 others+core not get it. If that happens, why the hell did we amalgamate in the first place?

Spec for everyone, or spec for no one. My  :2c:.

If you read further back, the spec pay issue had nothing to do with the re org of the trades.  It was to address manning issues, training shortfalls and overall readiness of the core trade and the sub occs.  Spec pay is in the mix because the LCIS trade brings it with them.  You aren't going to be successful at managing the LCIS / CST trade if you take spec away from them at the WO rank.  The spec 1 Sgt 4th incentive makes more than a standard pay WO 4th incentive.  Unless of course you are trying to reduce the numbers in the LCIS / CST trade then you would be successful.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 12, 2011, 15:27:26
I think its odd that current Sig Ops are up in arms with the "apparent" announcement that the Core branch will not receive Spec pay. 
I mean, you didn't get spec pay Dec 31.. what magically happened (other than a name change) on Jan 1st?  Did your micro market courses suddenly become national qualifications?    I don't buy the argument that Sig Ops are network admins.   ( last time I checked.... the networks we use in DND are administered in Ottawa, by civilians ! )  and... the network admin band wagon is over saturated on civie street.. those guys are a dime a dozen and are paid as such. (Senior admins are another story.)
 I don't have a hate on for Sig Ops.  There are a lot of outstanding and smart guys in that trade. But, we have to look at the bigger picture and the old trade as a whole... and what the new core occupation will be qualified and required to do.
I think there would be a bigger problem IF the core received the same pay as the sub occupations.    I mean, why would you want to go into a slower moving sub occupation with more training time, less promotions and make the same pay ?   

I think instead of waiting for someone to hand you spec pay at the snap of a finger, those complaining should OT.
I started out as an operator... thought that I knew everything and deserved Spec pay.  So, I put in for an OT.  Went back to CFSCE for 1.5 years ( POET and LCIS 3s then 204 / 208)

I am not a supporter of the MES program in the slightest.  It's a big mess that is going to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

I think most of us Techs and the Linemen don't buy into the smoke and mirrors concepts as some of our Operator peers do. Rad Ops were the only Sigs trade that had a hostage retention policy of you can OT out, But we won't let you. ACCIS appears to set the same rule.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 12, 2011, 17:51:34
Occam, are you in a ACISS trade? Or the Signals branch altogether? Its easy to say "You shouldn't get spec pay." without having done the jobs. I really doubt they're going to let one Sub Occupation get Spec Pay, and 2 others+core not get it. If that happens, why the hell did we amalgamate in the first place?

Spec for everyone, or spec for no one. My  :2c:.

I'm not in an ACISS trade, but I am in the C&E Branch and stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night!    ;D

I'm smack dab in the middle of a bunch of LCIS techs and Sig Ops (hell, my entire CoC is Sig Ops), and I know their pain.  It's not personal - my belief that ISTs and ACISS core aren't going to get Spec Pay is based on the battle that Nav Comms have been waging for years.  A bunch of one week Microsoft/Cisco/Novell courses does not a specialist make.  The Sig Ops who are overseas supporting deployed networks don't even get local logon privileges on the servers - they're managed back here.  They're relegated to user maintenance in AD, connectivity issues, and blowing the dust out of the fans.  That's not Spec Pay material.

As far as the LSTs go, my guesstimate that they're not going to get Spec Pay either is based on the fact that they weren't getting it before, and the fact that retention hasn't been an issue for them.  The job occasionally calls for a higher level of technical skills, but not on an every day basis.

Hell, if they pare back technical training any more, the CSTs aren't likely to get Spec Pay either!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 12, 2011, 19:28:14
Thanks for the background, Occam.

I personally feel that all of this talk that all Sub Occs will get spec is what is putting the 215s up in arms. If LST and IST don't end up with Spec, I think its completely fair that Core doesn't get spec. From the training I saw recent RC(S) helpdesk pers get, then getting spec just makes no sense. Its the MES machine that's fueling the in-fighting, by either not answering questions, or giving information like "All sub occs will get spec". If the whole goal was retention for the SigOp and LCIS trade, they're really screwing it up by not giving a financial incentive.

Tango: What smoke and mirrors? It sounds like you have a personal hate for Operators that want the same piece of the pie 227s have been enjoying for a few years. You get spec for POET. POET was great when radios and equipment was built with tubes, but you don't need 15 months of electronics training to change a card in a radio. The 052s want it as well. Won't be special anymore if everyone gets spec 1, will you?

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: goair on January 12, 2011, 19:48:41
Something I don't understand right now is hubby went in for LCIS, finished BMQ last year and we knew the amalgamation was coming, but my understanding is that LCIS was undermanned, so why are they having him sit for 6+ mths. in Kingston doing nothing.  I'd think they'd want to push him through quicker since he is LCIS (CST with the amalgamtion now according to my understanding).  I'm not going to sit and gripe about it, but I'd think they'd want to get the people who are subspecializing in CST through first.  I'm just the wife at home though, so I'm not up on all the acronymns and logistics and everything, just trying to think logically about it all.  I know there are a lot of people that have been sitting in Kingston for quite some time, but there are quite a few people who he graduated with that are getting all their training dates and he's just been told there is absolutely nothing going on for him for the next 6+ months.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 12, 2011, 19:57:09
The MES Machine can promise Spec Pay across the board until the cows come home, but as you can see from the article that I posted, the decision ultimately is not in their hands.  Treasury Board will crunch the numbers according to the procedure, and it may fly or it may not, or it may fly for some and not others.  The Nav Comms (Naval Communicators, also the ship's IS Administrators) have been shot down twice for Spec Pay now in recent memory.  If I'm not mistaken, there has to be a certain time period between attempts, so if the Army is going to try to get Spec Pay for ACISS & subtrades, they'd better have their sales pitch slicker than snot with numbers which will make the grade using the TB formula.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 12, 2011, 20:36:47
Tango: What smoke and mirrors? It sounds like you have a personal hate for Operators that want the same piece of the pie 227s have been enjoying for a few years. You get spec for POET. POET was great when radios and equipment was built with tubes, but you don't need 15 months of electronics training to change a card in a radio. The 052s want it as well. Won't be special anymore if everyone gets spec 1, will you?

I hate to disappoint you, but i don't have a hate on for the individual operators. I do have issues with a trade that thinks they are all that and a bag of chips within our branch. We are all equals, ands its about time that the Sig Op Trade makes this realization. POET is still relevant, but I guess you must be under the impression that all we repair is 522s. The Linemen are welcome to spec pay, they understand what hoops they have to jump through to gain it. And they know exactly why their bid failed on their last attempt.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on January 12, 2011, 21:07:12
POET was great when radios and equipment was built with tubes, but you don't need 15 months of electronics training to change a card in a radio. The 052s want it as well. Won't be special anymore if everyone gets spec 1, will you?

I cannot tell you how many times in my career I have been handed a piece of kit to figure out/administer/troubleshoot/fix.  The skills and troubleshooting methodology learned in POET are called upon CONSTANTLY. 

I have to tell you, I also HATE the "change cards in a radio" definition of LCIS techs.  Well, I guess Operators don't deserve Spec Pay for making coffee in a CP either.

I realize that the spec pay issue is the hottest topic in the MES and it gets us all a little hot under the collar. But at the end of the day its not anyone in the branches decision.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 12, 2011, 21:29:41
I'm not going to get into a huge pissing match over who has the harder job. We all have specialities, but POET isn't an absolute must. I cannot count how many times I've been handed a piece of kit that's either mine or someone elses, and told to fix it. I didn't need POET to figure it out, just a little common sense and the ability to logically look at a problem. POET would have let me use some neat machines to figure it out, but that takes too much time, things need to be fixed yesterday.

Tango: Its a shame you've drawn all the jaded, lazy operators to work with over your career. I can assure you they're not all like that, at least not the ones I supervise. I do think its funny you say that we're all equals, yet you state that its just the Operators causing the problem. Issues normally have two sides, I bet there's another you're not seeing.

Just to note, I make a damn good cup of coffee, that maybe some take a little for granted in the field. However, if I wanted to be a coffee specialist, I'd work at Starbucks. There's far more to my job than that, as there is to technicians just fixing the magic green boxes that talk.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 12, 2011, 21:52:36
I'm not going to get into a huge pissing match over who has the harder job. We all have specialities, but POET isn't an absolute must. I cannot count how many times I've been handed a piece of kit that's either mine or someone elses, and told to fix it. I didn't need POET to figure it out, just a little common sense and the ability to logically look at a problem. POET would have let me use some neat machines to figure it out, but that takes too much time, things need to be fixed yesterday.

So are you saying because you occasionally fix somthing minor that justifies spec pay? Or are you saying you think that's what LCIS techs do? Because either way, I hate to be the one to point it out, but it sounds a lot like infanteers who claim they're just as good or better than sig ops after they do an ATCIS course, or they know everything a sup tech knows and more after they do a combat storesman course.

Speaking as somone who's trained as an operator via the CF, and has electrical/electronics training civi side, if it's a problem you need "neat machines" for, it's not going to be fixed yesterday, no matter what you do, that's why most field repairs of kit are limited to "replace and remove for second line repair".

A tinfoil, bubble gum, and duct-tape fix is not full repair.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 12, 2011, 21:53:51
I was using it as a reference that POET isn't the end all and be all of how to troubleshoot.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on January 12, 2011, 22:03:15
In a couple of hours, I can take anyone and teach them enough theory and give them enough hands on training to troubleshoot, and make quick dirty field repairs.

There's a huge leap from field expedient repairs to what LCIS techs do.

Actually, the fact that sig ops aren't trained/allowed to do minor field repairs such as soldering is a mistake on the part of the army.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 12, 2011, 23:33:13
Tango: Its a shame you've drawn all the jaded, lazy operators to work with over your career. I can assure you they're not all like that, at least not the ones I supervise. I do think its funny you say that we're all equals, yet you state that its just the Operators causing the problem. Issues normally have two sides, I bet there's another you're not seeing.

 There's far more to my job than that, as there is to technicians just fixing the magic green boxes that talk.

I'm sure that Beadwindow 7 would take exception to your comment. I have worked with some great operators over my many years. As for the equality, spend a bit more time in our branch and open your eyes. I have been a tech for 18 yrs was an Op for 3. So I have seen first hand both sides of the fence. The big issue right now is that my pay is still the same, the issue for the Ops is that the empty promise with money attached to it can't be deposited in the bank. And remember not all of the boxes you use are green, but they are supported by a tech, and the infrastructure that connects them is installed by a linemen or a tech.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 13, 2011, 00:42:41
I'll weigh in here with the latest statement from the ivory tower that is CFSCE HQ.

CST Spec Pay no change

LST Spec Pay...being fought for...it could take up to 12 months to get a decision

IST Spec Pay....still being defined...24-36 months...not looking likely

ACCIS Core Spec Pay... no chance.

Keep in mind folks the ARMY/DND does not abitrarily dole our spec pay on a whim.

It is the Treasury Board that gets the FINAL say based on justification from DND at all levels IAW what a comparitive job either performed within the public service or the private sector are compensated for.

You, me, or anyone else here cannot and won't be able to influence that process in the slightest. In short, if you believe you or your trade deserve Spec Pay, staff it up thru the CoC with all your relavent documents, crse reports, crayon drawings or whatever in care of DSigs or the CFCCO and best of luck to you.

Don't complain too much though, I think that the 74 students that started ACCIS DP-1 Core last week who were originally recruited as LMN or LCIS six months ago and now are being told they have to compete for those jobs AFTER they are posted to units that supposedly are going to rotate them through the various shops (yeah, like THATS going to happen), to see who has the aptitude to perform in the trade/sub-occupation on DP1.1 which they had originally selected many months prior 2011 have a legit gripe that trumps anything in this thread.
Just a thought though.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 13, 2011, 00:55:55
And ultimately, those candidates are the first to be disadvantaged by this new strategy. When the time comes for resigning, i am willing to bet that over 50 percent will become civilians again. Just due to the uncertain future they will be experiencing as the first few.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 13, 2011, 10:51:54
I was at the same brief as Jammer.

I went and saw the three wisemen yesterday to confirm.  It is their plan that these students be loaded on the DP 1.1 courses IAW what they joined as.  So those that joined as LCIS will be loaded on CST, those that joined as linemen will be loaded on LST and those that are Sig Ops after their DP1 will be posted to their units.  Furthermore for the wantabe CSTs LSTs about 18 of them wont leave CFSCE but be loaded on 1.1 rightway and the others will also be posted but brought back to do their 1.1s.

So any young soldiers on their ACISS course that were in that brief, don't panic.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: meni0n on January 13, 2011, 11:25:20
Recruting offices are still enrolling people as Sig ops, LCIS etc, what will happen with those people given that they are being enrolled in the old trades after Jan 1.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 13, 2011, 11:32:38
I must admit that when I heard that we all mite not get spec pay I was a little ticked off.  I thought of maybe submitting a memo to go from ACISS Core to IST.  Then I though about it - how much do I really know about servers, routers,switches, networkgates with the career path I had have.  I know their are Ex Sig Ops that have all those quals and deserve their IST position and spec pay.  I also thought I have at least 7 to 12 years left if I want to go 20 to 25, do I want to be a IST computer guy when I'm more of a operator/field type guy.

So I'm ACISS Core, I'm going to stay the course and hope for the best.  And I hope that everybody eventually gets Spec Pay.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on January 13, 2011, 11:37:56
It will be interesting to see what they do to me when I re-enroll.. QL3 SigOp trained.

The recruiters still recruit for SigOp, Lineman or LCIS. I inquired as to why, and they said it is because they have not been given orders to mention ACCIS, just to mention the trades are changing.. Their CoC have not decided on how to go about recruiting for ACCIS yet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Danke on January 13, 2011, 11:39:36
Recruting offices are still enrolling people as Sig ops, LCIS etc, what will happen with those people given that they are being enrolled in the old trades after Jan 1.

I asked the recruiter on Tuesday, since he hadn't mentioned it when I first went there. He told me that, depending on the timing, I'd either be put into ACISS directly, or into one of the trades and then into ACISS.

On a related note, handing in my application later today.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on January 13, 2011, 12:09:30
I asked the recruiter on Tuesday, since he hadn't mentioned it when I first went there. He told me that, depending on the timing, I'd either be put into ACISS directly, or into one of the trades and then into ACISS.
Interesting.. This is the second inconsistent situation I have heard of with my recruiters in one week.

On a related note, handing in my application later today.

Good :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 13, 2011, 12:25:22
The Branch has done less than a stellar job of getting the word out about ACCIS to the recruiting centers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 13, 2011, 13:29:23
Their CoC have not decided on how to go about recruiting for ACCIS yet.

They couldn't figure out how to recruit for SigOp in the first place, that's why we're in this mess. If SigOp and LCIS weren't constant Red Trades, we wouldn't have the good idea train running on how to fix it, which created MES.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 16, 2011, 16:01:35
What I would do if I were you?

Tell them you enrolled as an LCIS Tech, and to honour the terms under which you enrolled.  If they can't do that, and it appears that you're going to be employed as a PAT for a ridiculous period of time and not be able to move your family to your current location, they should be offering you ATIS Tech or something like that.  They should never have dicked around people who had no idea what they were getting into.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Old and Tired on January 16, 2011, 16:33:35
And this is large part of the reason we are where we are in the C & E Branch in general and Army Sigs more specifically.  We treat people like and they are as expendable as D Cell batteries.  From what I gather in the very limited information that I`ve been able to get about the ACISS process, it`s only going to get worse.  No one that I`ve spoken with is willing to talk about the underlying problems we have.

I think we will see a spike in VOT`s and or RV`s as this sorts it`s self out.  They are a large number of people that are in Kingston right now who have been waiting for training in the trade they signed for, and now that trade doesn`t exist anymore.  Some of these people are going to be spending up to a year (if not more) waiting on a course for which they may or may not be what they wanted/signed for.  How much is this going to affect their out look on the CF.

I'm still trying to keep an open mind but it's becoming more difficult.  I'm in St-Jean on ILQ right now and their are a couple of folks from Ottawa in the Sigs world and they haven't got any better an idea of what is going to happen over the medium to long term.

For me it doesn't matter.  I wanted to be TAC RAD guy from day one.  I to old and stupid to move into any of the sub-specialities so I'm Happy that I'm ACISS Core, but for the young troops coming in who thought they would be LCIS or line it's going to be a whole lot different.  I don't know that they are going to stay around that long.

my :2c: from the peanut gallery.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 16, 2011, 16:42:59
I can't agree more. The CMs have even less of a clue about how the fallout is going to affect the trades. I just wanted to keep being a tech without all the BS of being amalgamated. This is my second one now, and the most bitter. Rad Tech to LCIS Tech, now to CST and then CISTM shortly.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Lare on January 16, 2011, 19:25:30
As one who may be entering as a Sig Op, I haven't really seen a large amount of complaints regarding the Sig's. For a fresh recruit, who is expecting ACISS core, will this new training system have any frustrations attached? From what I'm reading here it seems as though it will remain the same, except that we will be taking a little more varied DP1. Will there be a huge wait on PAT as now 3 trades, previously with their own course, are now bottle-necked into one?

As an aside, I sincerely hope the recruiting centres get some information quick for the LCIS/Linemen. I would hate to think of the guy applying for either of those trades now, without knowing about this site. Same situation as those who applied before all of this amalgamation stuff came to light though I guess.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 16, 2011, 19:33:52
Line will be closed to recruiting for quite sometime I bet, it's always been a very healthy trade.

As a new recruit into ACISS, you won't see anything, its just very different for us that are already a decade or more into the C&E Branch.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on January 20, 2011, 09:08:00
Maybe someone here has an answer on this...

Right now I am the 2IC of a TE Section...(Base Phone switch and DSL Installs) LCIS Tech....I think I still am...I applied for IST as all my college and military training up till this point is IS centric.
If I become an IST tech, will I be posted out of this position to be employed properly as an IST tech somewhere? We have been told LST will take over the base phone switches...which makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 20, 2011, 10:05:21
If I become an IST tech, will I be posted out of this position to be employed properly as an IST tech somewhere? We have been told LST will take over the base phone switches...which makes sense to me.

Since that solution is logical and makes sense, and is an effective use of human resources, the answer is most undoubtably and unequivocally no.    ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on January 20, 2011, 10:14:57
But what if what you said made sense......Oh man we are stuck in a logic loop....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 17:30:41
Today at CFSCE the two new ACISS Courses, Sig QL3s and Sig Op QL5s and a LCIS crse were brief by the MES Manager MWO Buffett on ACISS.

Interesting Points
1. The date we official beome ACISS is actually 1 Apr 11
2. Recruting Centers are still recruting Sig Ops, Linemen and LCIS until 1 Apr when the new trade stands up.
3. Spec pay has gone to treasure board for the hold trade - EVERYBODY.
4. Anybody who was recruited as LCIS, Linemen The MES team will honour their choice and fast track them through DP1, DP1.1 and DP2.0
5. Lateral movement across the core and sub occups possible. If you have the quals and interest you can move across the trades esp at rank of Pte to Cpl.  For Mcpls that want to change they will drop their rank BUT KEEP THIER PAY while doing the courses and quals required.
6. All new DP1s will be posted to Bde Sigs Sqns with a small minority posted to JSR.
7. The MES project is developing DL packages on DND learn that ACISS pers can take to help them move laterally across the board.  IE if we have 33 positions avaliable for IST and say 48 pers apply for OT the most qual 33 pers will be taken.  The others that did not get the OT can still apply again and the MES managers will brief those pers on why they were not picked and what course, quals they need to get.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 20, 2011, 17:35:25
Worst April's Fools joke ever. :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 20, 2011, 17:39:00
C/S 0: Thanks for the up to date information.

Anyone else find it hilarious they've moved ACISS stand up another 4 months to the right? We're we supposed to be stood up a year ago and DP1 courses started last summer? The good idea train has something on the tracks slowing it down called common sense.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 17:43:41
Here is the DWAN link for the Official Site for ACISS

http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/ACISS%20Structure%20Overview1/Home.aspx

On here are the survey results for who is what
Also a FAQ Page
And contact emails ref questions on ACISS.  You will not get a reply but each week they take the questions and put them on the FAQ.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FiZZiKaL on January 20, 2011, 19:25:43
As myself being one of the people whom got this briefing was absolutely outraged that they were doing this to us. A little bit of information I was recruited as an LCIS Tech and have completed my POET which was a requirement to QL3's prior to the big change. So what their idea of the new training system is all trades get the ACISS common course DP1. Then you are posted to a unit doing technically what a sig op does and in their terms was, "Drive the truck, man the radio". Untill you are 5's qualified which then you are put into a subcategory(LST, CST and IST) Generally the one matching your trade because it saves their behind from offering you a voluntary occupational reassignment. Now obviously being poet qualified and along with other people the question was asked, what does this mean for us? Basically he said that you would be lined up right after to take your DP1.1 course. Which still yet has nothing to do with the trade i chose and won't happen until I'm finished DP2 and DP2.1 CST from what I understand. So basically I've wasted 6+ months completing the POET course to be for the lack of better terms 'screwed'. So now a year here being in the kingston training system I have accomplished no further training towards the trade I chose and may not see the light at the end of the tunnel for the next 3 years while they sort all this out. Also from what he said after DP1.0 apparently for the new people recruited their will be a 6-18 month wait for the DP1.1 course i believe, which is a 25 training day course.

So I sit here and ask myself, What the heck am I doing here? I will technically drive the truck and man the radio as they said today leaving Kingston once my DP1 is complete and a useless POET certificate. I really don't see how their change is improving anything or making things easier for the sigs. As the MES Managers said we will be back logged for the next 2-3 years.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 19:50:26
Hello FIZZiKal

I think you have misunderstood what was being said in the brief

First
"So basically I've wasted 6+ months completing the POET course to be for the lack of better terms 'screwed'."  You are actually ahead because to be a CIS (old LCIS) you still need to do POET or what ever the new name of POET is.  After your DP1 you will be fast tracked to DP1.1 which is the beginning of the career path for you.

Second
"Then you are posted to a unit doing technically what a sig op does and in their terms was, "Drive the truck, man the radio".   The CCO said that everybody is posted to their unit right after DP1, however the first 12 DP1.1 for CIS and LST will be brought back for 1.1 CIS and LST.  And then the next course and then the next course, etc.  Would you rather stay in CFSCE in PAT Platoon.

Third
If you are slated to be CIS the chances - seeing the MES Manger said they will honour your choice for CIS - when you get to your unit you will be put in a LCIS?CST position.

Fourth
"Even more individuals who walk through the door and promise them pipe dreams and just get them in to fix their sig op problems". This is the ironic thing - with ACISS right now we have actually have lessen the numbers of what were Sig Ops (ACISS CORE) by creating the IST sub occ. 

Fifth
" know its bitter and I haven't experienced anything outside the training system yet but I'm sure the ones with experience can sort of understand where I am coming from."  The Field Force is totally different then CFSCE.

Sixth
"for the DP1.1 course i believe, which is a 25 training day course. ' I believe the MES Manager and the CCO were talking about the DP2.0.

However once you do the common 2.0 then you will do the CIS 2.1 course.  It's the same as it is now.  LCIS techs don't get Spec pay till they are QL5 qual which is what the 2.0/2.1 level is now under ACISS.



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FiZZiKaL on January 20, 2011, 20:06:00
It's CST and technically DP1.1 is not specific to the CST sub-occ. So yes you will fill the role of a sig-op till you are CST 2.0 and 2.1 qualified 2+ years down the road.

edit: to add to that if you noticed on the diagram with ranks and the sub-occ chart.. Untill corporal you are ACISS op. He said that us LCIS would be pushed through. Yes I, understand that but there is no definite answer when you will be able  to complete the DP2/2.1 CST training to become what we wanted. Yes we technically will be pushed through to do the DP1.1 but that does not make us CST.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 20:46:17
Well think of it this way, CST begins at 1.1 while ACISS Op is DP1.  There is no ACISS Op 1.1.  In the Trade Diagram everybody starts at DP1, to the left side ACISS Op Core goes up to DP 2.0.  Then there are three pipes to the right that are the Sub Ocps - CST, IST, LST.  So you begin to get your speicalist training that those in the core training do not.

Who do you think are going to fill the IST and CST Pte positions in the HQ and Sig Sqns and CFJSR - ACISS Core or guys that have the 1.1 qual?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FiZZiKaL on January 20, 2011, 20:53:27
Yes you are correct. That makes complete sense but you still fill the boots of a Signal Operator untill DP 2.1 CST/IST/LST whatever you choose to be. As the MES Manager described it. I hope it works for the best. Although I, guess nobody likes changes to a working system. That is where all the bitterness comes in. Specially when you are told one thing and you set your mind on that and then they change your career plan and set you up it on a detour.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 21:12:07
Change is something that is going to blow your mind.  I have been a Reserve Radio-Teletype Operator 215, then in the Regular Force a Radio Operator 211 and then a Signals Operator 214 and now a ACISS Operator.

When I first joined we had analog radios that were voice and low data with a LTACS System that used low grade micro wave signals to extend telephone systems by Radio Relay.  Long range communications were by HF and you had to cut the antenna to the freq you were using.  With VHF not everything was encrypted and you could only speak for about 30 secs.

Now we have Digital Radios that pass both voice and data that hops freqs and is encrypted.  Instead of HF for Long Range now we have SAT Comms and instead of LTACS extending local Teelphone networks we have HCLOS that extends LAN Information Systems for data.

In the command post we had maps on boards and we used markers to draw on the map where everybody is.  Now we have Battleview and SAM/SAS which updates your position every few minutes on the 50 inch screen TV in the TOC.  We use to use map and compass to nav now we have GPS with build in waypoints to nav.

Just wait for twenty years down the road when you are a WO/MWO and the changes you are going to see.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 20, 2011, 21:15:57
And everybody in the Troop had to wait their turn to use something call a 'Typewriter' to do their weekend leave pass.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 20, 2011, 22:57:46
There is no ACISS Op 1.1.

This is a MAJOR flaw in the MES plan. As it is, you have pers needing max supevision in a rad det. Now you're keeping them in the Core trade and not training them up to the standard of a current SigOp.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 21, 2011, 10:41:02
"This is a MAJOR flaw in the MES plan. As it is, you have pers needing max supevision in a rad det. Now you're keeping them in the Core trade and not training them up to the standard of a current SigOp."

This is how I think it is suppose to work.  In The MES brief they called the DP 2.0 Crse a Det 2IC Crse.  Right now the QL5 is a Det Comdrs Crse.  There is no ACISS Core 1.1 but after 2.0 there is a ACISS Core 2.1 IIRC is along the lines of the old FCC crse.  They are calling the Det Comdrs qual the PLQ.

Although they are calling the DP 2.0 Crse a 2IC crse for my part when journeymen show up to do this crse at CFSCE they are still going to be in command of a Det with 2 x apprentices.

What I got from the brief is they were stressing the new DL courses that they are developing for ACISS that Ptes/Cpls can do on DND learn.  Also the OSQs such as NCISS, HCLOS, EPERS, etc.

If this is going to work I think the chain of command is going to have to buy into letting their people have the time to go on OSQs and doing DL.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on January 21, 2011, 16:02:28
Just saw the new CFSCE Calendar. On the reserve side, are QL3 mod 1 & 2 structured the same way as the DP1 mods?

Specifically, is a member who has completed  the old mod 1 eligible for the new mod 2?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Cobrajr on January 21, 2011, 21:44:21
4. Anybody who was recruited as LCIS, Linemen The MES team will honour their choice and fast track them through DP1, DP1.1 and DP2.0

I joined as an LCIS Tech back in August 2008 on the Subsidized Education Entry Plan. I have been in school taking Electrical Engineering Technology since then, I am in my last year now. Each summer I have done OJT at 3ASG sigs, so I have had time to work as an LCIS for a while and love it, I do not want to lose it :/

Do you know if this fast track program apply to me?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 22, 2011, 11:08:27
Hello Cobrajr

I don't know how it would work for as being part of the Sub Edu Entry Plan.  Your best bet is to email the MES Manager on the link above and ask him if will have to do DP1.0, etc.

Hello Rheostatic
Yes the reserves will fall under the same Dp1 and DP2 quals like the Regular Force.  The only difference is that for the res some of the PO's you won't get like SAM/SAS.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 22, 2011, 11:37:15
Change is something that is going to blow your mind.  I have been a Reserve Radio-Teletype Operator 215, then in the Regular Force a Radio Operator 211 and then a Signals Operator 214 and now a ACISS Operator.

When I first joined we had analog radios that were voice and low data with a LTACS System that used low grade micro wave signals to extend telephone systems by Radio Relay.  Long range communications were by HF and you had to cut the antenna to the freq you were using.  With VHF not everything was encrypted and you could only speak for about 30 secs.

Now we have Digital Radios that pass both voice and data that hops freqs and is encrypted.  Instead of HF for Long Range now we have SAT Comms and instead of LTACS extending local Teelphone networks we have HCLOS that extends LAN Information Systems for data.

In the command post we had maps on boards and we used markers to draw on the map where everybody is.  Now we have Battleview and SAM/SAS which updates your position every few minutes on the 50 inch screen TV in the TOC.  We use to use map and compass to nav now we have GPS with build in waypoints to nav.

Just wait for twenty years down the road when you are a WO/MWO and the changes you are going to see.

Satcom is great as long as the birds are there. GPS is great as long as the birds are there. SAM/SAS is great as long as the bandwidth is available to quickly and accurately update your OSPR. In Afghanistan it took up to 20mins to poll from my veh to the TOC, by which time i had already travelled as much as 5 km. Nothing beats "locstat xxxxxxxx moving west along xxxxx".

HF will always work, you can pass data through it, encrypt it, and nobody turns off the RF spectrum. It's a waning skillset that is slowly making it's way back into relavence. Stay tuned on that one. MTF.

The Comm Rsch folks are also relearning an old lesson. Morse Code is soon going to be re-introduced into thier trade. Everything old is new again.
Technology is great, but as anyone knows it will collapse on you at the most critical time. If a soldier cannot fall back on some basic skills, the fight will be lost.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on January 22, 2011, 11:41:37
Technology is great, but as anyone knows it will collapse on you at the most critical time. If a soldier cannot fall back on some basic skills, the fight will be lost.

Been there.  Murphy's Law seems to pick the most inopportune times to come into effect.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on January 22, 2011, 11:55:49
...yeah like when the helo is supposed to come in and lift you back for HLTA...oh sorry, it broke you have to take an *** puckering CLP instead...wait, the truck is overheating and you have to overnight at a FOB....wait, the Herc broke in Mirage and your going to be delayed...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on January 25, 2011, 22:14:46
Two skill sets seem to be dying in the CF: HF Comms and Winter Warfare.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 25, 2011, 22:51:57
There is presently a resurgance for Winter Warfare in the West. And HF Comms experience seems to be only with the old Rad Ops, and not so much the new Sig Ops.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on January 25, 2011, 23:10:54
Two skill sets seem to be dying in the CF: HF Comms and Winter Warfare.

HF may be dying in the army...............not so everywhere else.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 25, 2011, 23:13:31
I don't think the Navy or Air Force are using field expedient antennas, might be a bit rough changing freqs in flight if you did.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on January 25, 2011, 23:20:48
I don't think the Navy or Air Force are using field expedient antennas, might be a bit rough changing freqs in flight if you did.

Yeah, i would need way better safety gear.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on January 25, 2011, 23:21:51
Yeah, i would need way better safety gear.


A fall-arrest system?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 25, 2011, 23:22:29
The monkey tail would be very long. It would make a good practical joke on the ground crew though. >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on January 26, 2011, 10:16:53
Yes the reserves will fall under the same Dp1 and DP2 quals like the Regular Force.  The only difference is that for the res some of the PO's you won't get like SAM/SAS.
That's not what I'm asking about. I understand that the res and reg courses are equivalent, but are the old and new mods equivalent?

The reserve QL3 was delivered in 2 mods since a couple years ago, and it looks like that will be the case for the reserve DP1 as well. There are members who have only completed the first half of QL3.

I have seen a chart floating around illustrating the planned reserve DP1 career progression and it mentions that those who have completed only QL3 mod 1 will have to do a "28-day ACISS(-)" course (I don't know the source of the chart). I'm wondering if these 28 days are in lieu of a mod 2, or an added prerequisite.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 26, 2011, 13:04:19
The new ACISS DP1 Res will not be equivalent to the Reg DP1 ACISS. I don't think they'll be making you guys redo both mods, but wierder things have happened. It'll come down to a PLAR for the POs you've already completed.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on January 26, 2011, 22:17:06
This may have been answered but I can't seem to find it after using the search feature.  I'm a reservist currently waiting my summer training in Kingston and was wondering if anyone know's how long the ACISS DP 1 is going to be and if they are breaking into mods?  And if the schedule is allowing for both those mods to be done in one summer? I understand that ACISS is still a working progress and this information may still be up in the air like the rest of the program any help would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 26, 2011, 23:02:52
2 summers, 1 mod each summer as it stands right now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on January 27, 2011, 00:17:29
So I finally got hold of that briefing powerpoint off of the sharepoint site. These questions concern the sig op trade or ACISS core sub-occupation or whathaveyou.

I'm familiar with the QL/2, 3, 5, 6A sequence.  I've got a rough grasp of the DP1-DP2 sequence.

DP1 includes recruit school, an initial trades course, and OJT. Like QL/2 or BMQ+SQ through QL/3 and QL/4 for those trades that had an OJT QL/4.

DP2 would include my 5's, PLQ, and some time as an acting det commander.

DP3A is... what? Assignment as a det commander I got. But DP3A common ACISS training?

DP3B I'd expect to include the Sig Op 6A's.

So what extra checks in the box does this ask for a Sig Op who's got his 5's and PLQ right now?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on January 27, 2011, 17:34:50
Thanks PuckChaser, are both mods 2 months? and are we able to do them both in a summer? (for reservists)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 27, 2011, 19:22:06
I believe they are 8 weeks each, but the firm numbers haven't come out yet. I aws just told it was 2 summers, one mod each summer.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 27, 2011, 22:26:09
DP1 includes recruit school, an initial trades course, and OJT. Like QL/2 or BMQ+SQ through QL/3 and QL/4 for those trades that had an OJT QL/4.

DP 1.0 is the common point of entry it is the equivalent to a QL3.  All driver wheel and SQ etc will be done prior to entering the DP 1.0 course.  The DP 1.0 qualified ACISS will proceed to a HQ & Sigs (some special few to CFJSR) for OJT and intro to the sub-occupations.  Those interested/chosen can then proceed on DP 1.1 or basic sub-occupation training (not common but sub-occ specific) to become a "Specialist".

DP2 would include my 5's, PLQ, and some time as an acting det commander.

DP 2.0 is the common QL 5 equivalent for ACCIS; all ACCIS core and sub-occupations will have to do this course.  DP 2.1 (not common but occupation specific) for the sub-occupations is their Journeyman's training and is required to become a "Technologist", they will also have to do a PLQ (L) to be promoted MCpl.  The PLQ (L) is considered to be the DP 2.1 for ACISS core.

DP3A is... what? Assignment as a det commander I got. But DP3A common ACISS training?
DP3B I'd expect to include the Sig Op 6A's.

DP 3.0 is common ACISS 6As/Bs.  DP 3.1 is (not common but occupation specific) 6As/Bs.  Then normal progression ILQ, ALQ and CQ.

I've heard talk of a potential common 4.0 and 4.1 with similarities to the Army Sig Planners (ASP) course but they haven't sat the writing boards yet.

So what extra checks in the box does this ask for a Sig Op who's got his 5's and PLQ right now?

DP 3.0 and 3.1 whatever comes after that (if anything) and then normal Army qual's

There is a bunch of DL thrown in the mix as well.

Oh ya...there is a CISTM course in there somewhere too.  Lots of school ahead for Army Sigs.

**Note:  I'm a bit waffly on the 4's stuff so don't quote me.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 27, 2011, 22:49:49
The PLQ (L) is considered to be the DP 2.1 for ACISS core.

Pretty good except for this point. There will be an ACISS core DP 2.1, basically a updated FC course, for managing voice and data radio networks.

PLQ (L) remains a career course, rather than a trade course.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on January 27, 2011, 22:52:35
Ack.  Never got that from the most recent brief by the School.  Was a bit of a snore so I might have missed that part.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 28, 2011, 00:36:49
Ack.  Never got that from the most recent brief by the School.  Was a bit of a snore so I might have missed that part.

I don't think it's been to widely talked about it. I'm only familiar with it because I was on the writing board
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mojo Magnum on January 28, 2011, 16:12:58
I know it's an impossible question, but your chances of winning the lottery are better if you buy a ticket......   Eta on treasury board decision?   Anyone?  Beuller?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 28, 2011, 16:17:54
Numbers thrown around for TB decisions is 2-3 years. RUMINT says they can auth backpay to all pers gaining spec 1 if the decision is favourable since we applied before trade stand up.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on January 28, 2011, 18:48:07
They can authorize back pay, BUT then the Army has to pony up the dough. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on February 01, 2011, 11:37:24
The new ACISS DP1 Res will not be equivalent to the Reg DP1 ACISS. I don't think they'll be making you guys redo both mods, but wierder things have happened. It'll come down to a PLAR for the POs you've already completed.
Got an answer the old-fashioned way; if anyone's interested, this summmer they'll run QL3 Mod 2 for the last time, as well as DP1 Mod 1. Makes sense, but the draft calendar had me concerned.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jacobite30 on February 03, 2011, 02:01:22
Ahh, the results of the new training.  My bold prediction.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 04, 2011, 15:48:54
Just got the reservist course schedule from my CoC last night and I've got my name in for DP1 9 May- 8 July than a DP2 Distance Learning from 13 July- 22 July and my residency DP2 27 July - 19 August hopefully another tasking to follow my DP2
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on February 04, 2011, 16:46:30
Just got the reservist course schedule from my CoC last night and I've got my name in for DP1 9 May- 8 July than a DP2 Distance Learning from 13 July- 22 July and my residency DP2 27 July - 19 August hopefully another tasking to follow my DP2
An ambitious plan, but "DP1 9 May- 8 July" is only mod 1 (the first half of DP1). You need to do DP1 mod 2 before DP2, and it's not on the calendar yet. Or request a reg DP1 (but I'm guessing you're a student and those dates probably won't work for you).

I suggest looking for other courses/tasks for after 8 Jul.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on February 04, 2011, 17:20:17
An ambitious plan, but "DP1 9 May- 8 July" is only mod 1 (the first half of DP1). You need to do DP1 mod 2 before DP2, and it's not on the calendar yet. Or request a reg DP1 (but I'm guessing you're a student and those dates probably won't work for you).

I suggest looking for other courses/tasks for after 8 Jul.

There has been a four-month QL3 mods 1&2 course running for the reserves for the last four summers. I don't see why the reserve wouldn't be running such a beast for DP1 this summer.

I'd suggest that buddy keep an eye out and pounce on it if his availability is May-August, and his training NCO should be able to find it when its announced and get him loaded.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on February 04, 2011, 18:26:44
There has been a four-month QL3 mods 1&2 course running for the reserves for the last four summers. I don't see why the reserve wouldn't be running such a beast for DP1 this summer.
That has been true in the past and I hope that will be available in the future. But apparently they're running the new DP1 mod 1 (from the CFSCE calendar) and the old QL3 mod 2 (from my CoC) this summer. Seems like it would take a lot of resources to run the old and new courses complete.

Anyway I won't speculate beyond the few bits of info I have, since there are people on this forum with better info than I (though they haven't had much to say on the reserve side).

I'd suggest that buddy keep an eye out and pounce on it if his availability is May-August, and his training NCO should be able to find it when its announced and get him loaded.
Also good advice.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 06, 2011, 01:17:17
Rheostatic, I'm actually not a student and I have applied for Reg Force DP1 courses and they all came back with a big ol no.  We are no longer allowed to put names forward for those courses.  My plan is ambitous but when they put the Calender out there was only DP1 didn't mention anything about mod 1 or mod 2 and if they were running it in two mod's why would they run DP2 at all this summer? nobody will be qualified to take it since everyone taking DP1 would have to do a second mod and those who did QL3 mod 1 are able to take QL3 Mod 2 for the last time this summer it wouldn't mak any sense to run DP2 until 2012, this is purely speculation.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on February 06, 2011, 04:54:27
Rheostatic, I'm actually not a student and I have applied for Reg Force DP1 courses and they all came back with a big ol no.  We are no longer allowed to put names forward for those courses.  My plan is ambitous but when they put the Calender out there was only DP1 didn't mention anything about mod 1 or mod 2 and if they were running it in two mod's why would they run DP2 at all this summer? nobody will be qualified to take it since everyone taking DP1 would have to do a second mod and those who did QL3 mod 1 are able to take QL3 Mod 2 for the last time this summer it wouldn't mak any sense to run DP2 until 2012, this is purely speculation.

They'd run a DP2 for those who've already picked up QL3. QL3 is an equivalent to DP1, and there's a large number of folks in line for their next course.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: chillytech on February 06, 2011, 11:53:06
Hi everyone,

I'm currently in my ninth week of BMQ and I've been monitoring this thread with a lot of interest. My application for LCIS technician was completed in March 2010 without any problems.

My current understanding is that from here I will attend BMQ(Land), Driver Course, and then QL3 training. At this point I will be an ACISS, which is a trade that combines elements of the sig ops, lineman and LCIS tech trades. I would then spend time doing this until eventually specializing into the LCIS equivelant sub trade.

If my understanding thus far is correct then that means I won't necessarily be doing what I applied for until taking the sub trade training probably 2-3 years from now.

Is my understanding somewhat reasonable? I'm really looking to be employed in as heavy a tech trade as I can. A big thanks for all of the knowledge shared so far!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 06, 2011, 13:06:21
I didn't think LCIS had to do a drivers course. Otherwise you're pretty much on the mark from the info we've all gotten.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 06, 2011, 13:20:24
LCIS might have to take the Driver Wheel now since they are trained to do the basic work of a Sig Op and Lineman. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Baywop on February 07, 2011, 10:52:00
Hi everyone,

If my understanding thus far is correct then that means I won't necessarily be doing what I applied for until taking the sub trade training probably 2-3 years from now.

Is my understanding somewhat reasonable? I'm really looking to be employed in as heavy a tech trade as I can. A big thanks for all of the knowledge shared so far!

Once you complete your DP1 you will be fast tracked to the DP1.1 CST Sub Occupation.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 07, 2011, 13:15:13
Once you complete your DP1 you will be fast tracked to the DP1.1 CST Sub Occupation.

With one fine detail lacking.  You are not officially in a sub-occupation until you are approved by the board and qualified DP 2.1.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 07, 2011, 13:24:40
Once you complete your DP1 you will be fast tracked to the DP1.1 CST Sub Occupation.

Is that guaranteed for the new kids coming in? And what kind of time-frame is "fast-tracked"? Will they be staying in Kingston to immediately begin their 1.1, or will they still be pushed out to the OJT units?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 07, 2011, 16:06:12
2 pages back, C/S 0 posted some notes from a recent briefing by the MES Manager of ACISS about the fast track process. They're gonna honour the trade choices of individuals as they are being recruited now, or are in the system. No details, but I'm sure they'll have a 1.1 course start right after the first ACISS DP1 to qualify all these pers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on February 10, 2011, 15:01:45
Thought this might provoke discussion; from the Winter edition of the Branch newletter:
Quote from: http://www.commelec.forces.gc.ca/inf/new-bul/vol54/article-07-eng.asp
Welcome to the Future! - ACISS Training Begins in January 2011
Written by Major M. Coyle, Chief Instructor, CFSCE

In 2007, General Hillier as Chief of the Defence Staff officially closed the Military Occupational Structure Analysis, Redesign and Tailoring (MOSART) project. This failed undertaking was initiated in 2002 and sought to modernize the CF’s Military Occupation Structures from top to bottom. It simply turned out to be too much, too soon.

We want to do it; we have to do it, the question is just how we do it. The solution is to continue the work in ‘chunks’—manageable pieces that won’t place too much pressure on the CF. - General R. Hillier

In the months that followed, Army Signals harnessed the good from that effort, and received approval from the Chief of Land Staff to transform the Sigs NCM occupations. The plan was to move from three silo structures into one integrated occupation called the Army Communications and Information Systems Specialist (ACISS). While billions of dollars were invested digitizing the CF / Army and developing a network-enabled capability over two decades, the Army Sigs NCM occupations and the supporting training had not kept pace.

After a two-year DLCI led effort to complete the macro design and layout the national transformation effort, Army Signals were set to embark on the critical task of developing the supporting training. Faced with this challenge (and an incredible opportunity!), DAT, CTC, and CFSCE worked collaboratively to fill in the new ACISS straw-man.

2009 / 2010 involved focused concept development to ensure that the jobs within ACISS and the supporting training were both relevant and future focused, not simply a re-shuffling of the deck. The result is a robust and flexible occupation where the “the network” truly is the common thread. Within the sub-occupations, a Computer Network Defence employment stream was formalized owing to the increasing importance of that domain. System Management is fully integrated and we re-invest heavily in the training of WOs and MWOs. These are but a few of the highlights…

This effort was reinforced by an unprecedented number of Qualification Standard (Requirements Phase) and Training Plan (Design Phase) Writing Boards. These boards assembled subject matter experts from across the Army Signals and beyond (Academia, Industry, Other Government Departments, …) to inform the development of training at every stage. In some cases, we made mistakes or otherwise learned something that made us challenge what we had done in a previous step. In all cases, our reflex was to go back and get it right.

The critical issue in getting to implementation was the need to define and seek approval for the additional resources – ACISS came with a bill. After a series of high level briefings from mid-September to early November 2010, CFSCE received approval from both Commander LFDTS and A/CLS to proceed with the implementation of training beginning with DP 1.0 in January 2011. From January 2011 to January 2012, ACISS training will be progressively phased in while legacy training is phased out by May 2011. To accommodate the increased training demand and address major gaps throughout the unit, CFSCE will grow substantially over a two-year period. Additional investments will also be in equipment, vehicles, and infrastructure over the same period.

While significant challenges lie ahead, both Army Signals and the C & E Community writ-large has reached a major milestone we can all be proud of. This trade transformation is also inspiring great professional discussion and debate in other areas of the C & E Branch, and we’re all stronger for it.

VVV
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on February 13, 2011, 14:11:55
So it's been awhile since I posted in this thread, I've been awful busy being a Sig Op, now probable -IST.  Or so I've been named on the magic list of people on the ACISS website... I kept an eye on this though and gained some insight from it. But we were all mostly told the same, from across the country. That's kind of a shocker actually!

A career manager's brief in Edmonton a couple weeks ago was pretty funny though... When we asked the current Career Manager's what's going to happen in regards to postings for the new trades. They said, literally, and I quote, "We have no idea!"... They said PER/Merit Boards/Postings will not even be taking into account the new trade issues until next year. So for this APS, you'll be posted and/or promoted/career managed as you are, a Sig Op, Linemen or LCIS. They also had no idea what's going to happen TO current postings next year when all of this has to be taken into account...

For example... I'm currently a system administrator (Cpl, old QL5 qual'd with many IT courses). Originally I'm a Sig Op, now I'm apparently going to be an IST. Going on tour (yay!), going to do my tactical system admin job (TacC2IS), come back... If I want to get posted to say, LFCA, Ontario, say JSR or Ottawa, something IST-like..... What if there's a very limited number of IST positions? Does that mean I'm deadlocked in my current posting (LFWA) until an IST from LFCA wants to be posted here??.... What about for the other sub-trades? Line is basically full and has been for some time, same with LCIS. In fact, LCIS career manager said they're over staffed and won't have a problem switching some to IST etc...

I'm just afraid for awhile the trade in general will become deadlocked and stagnated while they figure out what and how to do with all of us!

It's my singular opinion (NOT WORTH much) they've done well (generally speaking) so far with the amalgamation, a year later than they originally planned BUT, better than expected... But what about the real meat and bones? What about 1 year from now when I come back from tour and this new trade is apparently full on? Am I going to be required to do some kind of odd conversion trng or is all my qualifications going to "grandfather" me into the -IST unquestioned?....

Still a lot of questions out there we can collectively dig for and keep our eyes and ears out for...

Oh and for the guys who think they don't have the money to post Sig Ops, you're wrong... From the mouth of the career manager, they have like 240 cost-approved moves for this APS alone. Doesn't mean they'll even move that many he said, but he wanted to kill that rumour. You'll still be posted according to the army's needs, then yours. But postings are available!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Baywop on February 14, 2011, 15:56:40
Am I going to be required to do some kind of odd conversion trng or is all my qualifications going to "grandfather" me into the -IST unquestioned?....


Make sure you submit a PLAR before you head out on tour.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on February 14, 2011, 16:04:15
What about 1 year from now when I come back from tour and this new trade is apparently full on? Am I going to be required to do some kind of odd conversion trng or is all my qualifications going to "grandfather" me into the -IST unquestioned?....

When you look at the ACISS site and look at what they gave you (I'm still "Pending Decision") it will tell you if you need to submit a PLAR or not.  If you do, do it now or you could be reverted back to the core trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on February 21, 2011, 15:10:50
We are no longer allowed to put names forward for those courses.
I'd be interested to know when/if this change actually took place. I've seen several reserve mbrs on reg QL3 and QL5 courses in the past couple of years. No one I've talked to is aware of such a restriction (but reg mbrs will of course have priority).
when they put the Calender out there was only DP1 didn't mention anything about mod 1 or mod 2
I think you should take another look at the course calendar. Note the competency code for mod 1 ("Nil"; it's only half of a course).

Those in the know, correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 23, 2011, 14:00:11
 
I'd be interested to know when/if this change actually took place. I've seen several reserve mbrs on reg QL3 and QL5 courses in the past couple of years. No one I've talked to is aware of such a restriction (but reg mbrs will of course have priority).I think you should take another look at the course calendar. Note the competency code for mod 1 ("Nil"; it's only half of a course).

Those in the know, correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm just stating what I was told that my unit in particular is no longer able to put names up for the Reg Force ACISS, probably has something to do with the backlog of people in the Reg Force trying to get trained.

I will double check the course calender tomorrow at work but from what I can remember it doesn't say anything about mod 1 or mod 2, I also asked my unit and they told me the course i'm slated for is the full thing.  Does anyone know the full length of BOTH Mod 1 and Mod 2 as I would like to get fully trained by the end of the summer.  If I knew that information I would be able to tell if i'm slated for both mods or just the first one.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on February 23, 2011, 14:53:55
According to the CFSCE Trg Calendar, the PRes ACCIS DP1 Mod1 is either 46 days or 30 days, dependant on which serial you get loaded on this summer.  There are currenlty no PRes DP1 Mod2 courses slated for the next FY.  The Reg Force DP1 is 75 days.  DP2 is broken into two mods also, a DL and a residency for both Reg and PRes.  The DL portion is 8 days and the residency is 17 Days.

Here is the DWAN link to the CFSCE Crse Calendar
http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/Catalogue/CFSCE%20FY%2011-12%20Course%20Calendar.xls (http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/Catalogue/CFSCE%20FY%2011-12%20Course%20Calendar.xls)

*Edit to add link
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 23, 2011, 16:31:25
For those in the Reserves who wish to become LST, the projected training time to accomplish this is 4 yrs from point of entry.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: SevenSixTwo on February 23, 2011, 17:13:34
For those in the Reserves who wish to become LST, the projected training time to accomplish this is 4 yrs from point of entry.

Source?

This sounds a bit ridiculous. Four summers to become a Pte(T)?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 23, 2011, 17:18:24
Sounds reasonable if LST DP1.1 is 2 summers long. First summer: BMQ/BMQ-L, Second Summer: ACISS DP1, Third Summer: DP1.1 LST Mod 1, Fourth Summer DP1.1 LST Mod 2.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 23, 2011, 17:54:54
Source?
This sounds a bit ridiculous. Four summers to become a Pte(T)?

Straight from CFSCE my friend.  Don't get wrapped in traditional monikers.  You are not a sub-occ (a true LST) until you have completed your DP 2.1.  The 1.1 only gives you the "Specialist" qual, which basically means you are trained to be employed as a Lineman's helper.  Everyone, I say again EVERYONE will be ACISS.  What this means is you (read; a potential LST) will have to become, and train as an ACISS Operator before being "selected" to move into the LST sub-occ based on aptitude and interest.  Your pers (or you) will be Pte (T) at the completion of ACISS 1.0.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 23, 2011, 21:37:27
According to the CFSCE Trg Calendar, the PRes ACCIS DP1 Mod1 is either 46 days or 30 days, dependant on which serial you get loaded on this summer.  There are currenlty no PRes DP1 Mod2 courses slated for the next FY.  The Reg Force DP1 is 75 days.  DP2 is broken into two mods also, a DL and a residency for both Reg and PRes.  The DL portion is 8 days and the residency is 17 Days.

Here is the DWAN link to the CFSCE Crse Calendar
http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/Catalogue/CFSCE%20FY%2011-12%20Course%20Calendar.xls (http://cfsce.kingston.mil.ca/Catalogue/CFSCE%20FY%2011-12%20Course%20Calendar.xls)

*Edit to add link



Thanks for the info 211RadOp.  Sucks that they aren't running both mods this summer, I suppose the attempts made by the Trg NCO to get us on DP1 and DP2 will be wasted time.  My unit staff must have been misinformed at some point.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on February 24, 2011, 09:27:44
My guess is that they will run the DP1 Mod2 next summer to complete the remaining 30/45 days.  To run the full DP1 (75 days) will take 15 weeks (based on a 5 day/week schedule).  As most PRes pers at the DP1 level will be students, there is not enough time in the summer to run both Mods for them in the Jul/Aug timeframe.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GypsyPronto on February 24, 2011, 14:41:19
DP 1 Mod 2 will not be a summer course, if you read the QS in full detail it explains how it will be a home unit responsibility. There are 2 competency codes that are given with DP 1, the first for rank qualification and the second for job qualification. When these pers return this summer from DP 1, they will get the first, and with time in rank, be able to be promoted to Cpl before getting the job qual. Because of the equipment that needs to be taught in mod 2 most units don't have there will be a few different options for getting the qual. Every unit is going to have to look at there specific options and make those decisions themselves.
Trying to figure out this course in whole is very confusing, and every unit is going to interpret parts differently. I know for the past few weeks straight now I have been dealing with this course and making sure my pers are ready and have all the pre-reqs required before they go. Its going to be interesting to see how this works out in the reserve world, its going to be a lot of changes, with no money to support to changes....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on February 24, 2011, 16:26:43
Do you happen to know these Pre-reqs, my unit is apparently very slack and I haven't been told anything about pre-reqs, and since im going on taskings in march right until I go for my DP1 in May i'd like to get these things cleared away.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GypsyPronto on February 24, 2011, 16:34:03
Yes, they are: BMQ and BMQ (L). You must have DDC and Driver wheel for LSVW and Milcot, have successfully completed a BFT within 365 days (or as a reservist a PT test), also must have a level 2 security clearance or atleast in process of getting one, and PO 001.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 24, 2011, 18:16:17
LFCA requires reservists have a BFT before they go on Cl B.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 01, 2011, 15:27:51
Yes, they are: BMQ and BMQ (L). You must have DDC and Driver wheel for LSVW and Milcot, have successfully completed a BFT within 365 days (or as a reservist a PT test), also must have a level 2 security clearance or atleast in process of getting one, and PO 001.

I was told driver wheel was required for my 3's. Still had 7 who didn't have it.

Likewise, a VP course. Until that PO got tossed out due to a couple of the first guys to get checked for competence royally flunked. Had a MCpl sig on an ex last week who didn't know what "fetch sunray" meant, after having gone on tour.

Milcot hasn't been run at my unit in the last four years, and we've got ten guys going for DP1 this summer.

Those may be the pre-reqs, but I'd suggest there will be folks showing up in Kingston without them.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: SevenSixTwo on March 01, 2011, 23:59:22
Milcot isn't a pre-req for DP1.

LSVW, DDC and SB course are.

However, you can be exempt from LSVW, DDC and SB if your unit says it was impossible for you to do the course before the summer.


Ex) Bob joins in September. He does BMQ and SQ (BMQ-L) on the weekends all the way up to the summer. He get's to go on the DP1 in the summer because he didn't have time to do the driver's wheeled course.




If you COULD HAVE done the driver's wheeled course before your DP1 then no you can't go because your unit can't apply for an exempt for you.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on March 02, 2011, 18:30:51
Milcot isn't a pre-req for DP1.
It appears to say otherwise in the QS. I was surprised too. Anyway, I have seen this requirement for driver quals waived for plenty of candidates.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: reverse_eng on March 15, 2011, 17:40:09
Sorry to cut into this riveting discussion, but it seemed like the best place.

Who here that is currently serving has been selected to go IST? Any one here have a lot of experience on the IT side of the house that would be willing to answer a quick couple questions via PM?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 16, 2011, 05:19:42
Yes, they are: BMQ and BMQ (L). You must have DDC and Driver wheel for LSVW and Milcot, have successfully completed a BFT within 365 days (or as a reservist a PT test), also must have a level 2 security clearance or atleast in process of getting one, and PO 001.

According to a brief last week (reserves):

ACISS core DP1 mod2 is taken first. It's 47 days, with a pre-req of driver wheeled. BMQ(L) is potentially waivable.

Consensus of class B pers at the brief was that it'd be a trainwreck to plan on having a wave of weekend BMQ/SQ types going straight into a DP1 with the expectation of them having driver wheeled. They're training on the weekends from fall through to summer. Are all units supposed to run a driver course in the two weeks prior to the course start date? If it's a pre-req and the plan is to schedule the course on that timeframe (count ten weeks backwards from August 25), then plan on running a driver course at CFSCE right before the course start date.

Mod1 is taken at the unit, after taking mod2 in the summer. 6 days, including topics such as HF.

DP2 is 15 days at CFSCE, 8 days DL.

For line, you've got about five summers worth of training (excluding BMQ/SQ), effectively killing the trade for the reserves. They will be expected to register in regforce course serials for DP1.1 and DP2.1. They will be at a deliberately lower standard than the existing 3's at the end of DP1.1.
Title: ACISS
Post by: wson on March 17, 2011, 20:17:27
Hey guys I found out yesterday that the basic occupational training for ACISS is only 18 weeks long, whereas Sig ops is 6 months and LCIS is 32 weeks, any idea how the time frame for the 3 sub occupation are? The recruiter had no idea, just wondering if anyone had any new information on this or not.
Title: Re: ACISS
Post by: MikeL on March 17, 2011, 20:47:38
Check out the ACISS thread in the Communications sub-forum.. might be a good place to look.
Title: Re: ACISS
Post by: wson on March 17, 2011, 20:54:55
Skimmed through it , didn't notice anything, i will take another look tho.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on March 22, 2011, 20:55:49
Anyone gone through yet and submitted themselves and their MPRR's for PLAR into a different sub-trade? Shortly I hope to be writing mine up and sending it in...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on March 22, 2011, 21:10:56
....it'd be a trainwreck to plan on having a wave of weekend BMQ/SQ...

Come on resurrection of the "COMM RES BATTLE SCHOOL"! (Sarcastic names or jokes aside, the glasses have been tinted rose, and I always had a blast working there)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 22, 2011, 22:02:24
I had a blast being there. I really did like Shilo in the summer, the mess food was always top notch (box lunches another story). The year I did my PLQ they brought in a PRes Arty Major to be the school Cmdt. Things ran very smoothly, gave us enough rope to hang ourselves with instead of treating us like children. We lost 2 weekends in a 9 week course, one was due to field ex and the other for field ex prep.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 23, 2011, 02:34:03
Come on resurrection of the "COMM RES BATTLE SCHOOL"! (Sarcastic names or jokes aside, the glasses have been tinted rose, and I always had a blast working there)

Meh. Give me a driver-instructor qual and I'd do the "COMM RES DRIVING SCHOOL". Even when Shilo was running, CFSCE did a less than stellar job with getting info passed down about what the actual pre-reqs were for 3's. Now there's a bigger time crunch to get them done in, and I doubt it's going to help.

Folks'd finish their BMQ/SQ at Shilo, have plenty of time to get their VP and 404's done, then show up at CFSCE without that little T1 tag on their 404's. Hello extracurricular trailer quals course run by instructors so that there'd be more than 7 QL3's qualified to be drivers on Mercury Storm.

Same thing happened again last summer, and I expect it to be even worse in the future. Organizing a damned driver wheeled course at Kingston as a formal part of the program would be a step up from the ad hoc garbage.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on March 23, 2011, 09:06:41
They do run driver training at the school.  I have two members of my Troop on course there right now.  The problem with running it prior to DP1 for PRes Signallers is that the course run at CFSCE is 14 training days.  Adding this 14 days onto DP1 would not work for Reservists as there are just not enough training days in the summer to do it all.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on March 23, 2011, 12:08:22
I had a blast being there. I really did like Shilo in the summer, the mess food was always top notch (box lunches another story). The year I did my PLQ they brought in a PRes Arty Major to be the school Cmdt. Things ran very smoothly, gave us enough rope to hang ourselves with instead of treating us like children. We lost 2 weekends in a 9 week course, one was due to field ex and the other for field ex prep.

Things ran smoothly despite him, not because of him, I can assure you.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 30, 2011, 20:11:43
Got another brief today during the Ex Comm Player PD session. MES Manager specifically mentioned this forum, so perhaps they're following in their spare time.

Trade standup date is pushed to the right again, tentatively end April. They're waiting on approval of the IP (no idea what that means) document to stand up the trade.

After hearing the brief right from the horses mouth so to speak, and hearing his experiences in the CF, I'm slightly more warm and fuzzy to the idea. There are a lot of plans to deal with the concerns the members are bringing up, its just a matter of getting them completed before we start ourselves down this road which will end in ruin if we don't kill the concerns right away. The brief we got is supposed to be up on the ACISS sharepoint sometime this week.

As for the reservists on here: 3 separate questions were asked about them, and all got the same answer. When the PRes restructure is done, then they'll know whether we'll have PRes CST and IST members. The training is also going to completely mirror the RegF courses, so expect quite a few summers to qualify someone as an Apprentice.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 30, 2011, 22:40:02
Got another brief today during the Ex Comm Player PD session. MES Manager specifically mentioned this forum, so perhaps they're following in their spare time.

Trade standup date is pushed to the right again, tentatively end April. They're waiting on approval of the IP (no idea what that means) document to stand up the trade.

After hearing the brief right from the horses mouth so to speak, and hearing his experiences in the CF, I'm slightly more warm and fuzzy to the idea. There are a lot of plans to deal with the concerns the members are bringing up, its just a matter of getting them completed before we start ourselves down this road which will end in ruin if we don't kill the concerns right away. The brief we got is supposed to be up on the ACISS sharepoint sometime this week.

As for the reservists on here: 3 separate questions were asked about them, and all got the same answer. When the PRes restructure is done, then they'll know whether we'll have PRes CST and IST members. The training is also going to completely mirror the RegF courses, so expect quite a few summers to qualify someone as an Apprentice.

Reserve line looks like a nightmare as it is. It'd be nice to normalize the already trained LCIS guys though (Eg ex- reg LCIS/CST with QL3/DP1.1 joins reserve unit, then completes DP2 as a reservist on reg force courses).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on March 30, 2011, 22:49:46
Quote
Brasidas:
The training is also going to completely mirror the RegF courses
Except for the ACISS core 2.1, 3.1 etc that won't be available will be "supplemental" to the reserves.

In fact the consensus at the briefing was that this will be a move away from reg/res equivalency, with unfortunate consequences for reserve employabality.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 31, 2011, 10:45:38
Reserve line looks like a nightmare as it is. It'd be nice to normalize the already trained LCIS guys though (Eg ex- reg LCIS/CST with QL3/DP1.1 joins reserve unit, then completes DP2 as a reservist on reg force courses).

That's up in the air until the restructure is done. The impression I got is that if they do not create CST/IST positions, those ex-RegF LCIS techs will still have all of their quals, just not gain any new CST DPx.1 courses. Nothing stopping you from employing them as CSTs, however their career progression would be that of ACISS Core, and would only be able to do the General Signals Knowledge DL courses if they want to stay current in the tech world. More to follow though, MES is waiting on external agencies for the PRes stuff.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fizzik on April 04, 2011, 22:34:20
It has come to my attention from what i see on the forces website just recently updated. But  the amalgamation of trades (ACISS) is not on the site but the three trades are considered hotjobs(Linemen, Sig Op, LCIS). So are they continuing to recruit as the initial trade and sending these people through the ACISS program and honoring their subtrade choice? Or is the site just not correctly updated? Considering ACISS is suppose to be in full effect as of April .1st correct?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 04, 2011, 23:47:16
You can only apply for ACISS Core. You do not get a subtrade choice at recruitment, only once you finish BMQ and hit the HQ and Sigs Sqn. Anyone recruited previously as LCIS, Line or SigOp will get fastracked to that subtrade, but anyone else without an offer now gets to test the system out by being purely ACISS first.

Trade date has been pushed right from 1 Apr 11 as they are waiting for paperwork to be approved to stand the trade up.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on April 05, 2011, 10:38:48
You can only apply for ACISS Core. You do not get a subtrade choice at recruitment, only once you finish BMQ and hit the HQ and Sigs Sqn. Anyone recruited previously as LCIS, Line or SigOp will get fastracked to that subtrade, but anyone else without an offer now gets to test the system out by being purely ACISS first.

Trade date has been pushed right from 1 Apr 11 as they are waiting for paperwork to be approved to stand the trade up.

In theory.. Not necessarily in practice.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 05, 2011, 17:13:03
In theory.. Not necessarily in practice.

We'll have to roll the dice and see if it all works out I guess.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fizzik on April 05, 2011, 20:23:45
Yea I, guess so eh.. Considering im one of the ones who signed for LCIS and done my POET and currently on the ACISS DP1.0 Pilot courses. I'm trying to keep positive  :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: JB 11 11 on April 13, 2011, 05:08:24
Funny... I applied last July and will be Merit listed for my trade as of April 22nd. (My application's pending until then due to LASIK wait times), and every time I've been in contact with the RC, they have referred to my trade as "Sig Op" and not ACISS. I've even slipped a few ACISS references in Emails, but its still "Sig Op" with them.

Its all a bit confusing this. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens if I make it into this intake.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on April 13, 2011, 07:38:00
Funny... I applied last July and will be Merit listed for my trade as of April 22nd. (My application's pending until then due to LASIK wait times), and every time I've been in contact with the RC, they have referred to my trade as "Sig Op" and not ACISS. I've even slipped a few ACISS references in Emails, but its still "Sig Op" with them.

Its all a bit confusing this. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens if I make it into this intake.

You will find that throughout your military career.  Just because someone has had a sudden flash of brilliance and changed the name of something, doesn't automatically change that name.  There are many instances where many of us use a name for something that is now called something else.  Take our mechanics for instance.  In the Army many of us still refer to them as RCEME (the "C" is silent), when they have gone through numerous name changes from RCEME to LORE to LEME to EME, etc.  Today the first leadership course for NCMs is a PLQ, but you will hear people calling it a CLC or a Jr NCO Crse, or even a CF Jr NCO Crse.  It happens. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 13, 2011, 08:04:32
ACISS is not approved yet so the RC has to use SigOp. When it officially stands up as a trade, then they will use ACISS.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: JB 11 11 on April 13, 2011, 09:09:38
You will find that throughout your military career.  Just because someone has had a sudden flash of brilliance and changed the name of something, doesn't automatically change that name.  There are many instances where many of us use a name for something that is now called something else.  Take our mechanics for instance.  In the Army many of us still refer to them as RCEME (the "C" is silent), when they have gone through numerous name changes from RCEME to LORE to LEME to EME, etc.  Today the first leadership course for NCMs is a PLQ, but you will hear people calling it a CLC or a Jr NCO Crse, or even a CF Jr NCO Crse.  It happens.

LOL!,   ::)  Duly noted.  :nod:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fizzik on April 13, 2011, 22:20:54
ACISS is not approved yet so the RC has to use SigOp. When it officially stands up as a trade, then they will use ACISS.

Does one know how far they pushed this to the right? Wasn't this suppose to happen April. 1st?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 13, 2011, 22:40:01
Does one know how far they pushed this to the right? Wasn't this suppose to happen April. 1st?

Tentatively end April, but they've stopped giving firm dates. The implementation plan is in final draft and needs to be approved by someone I forget before the final plan is printed and signed off officially. Then we become a trade. I guess its just a matter of crossing some Ts and dotting some Is. This info is current as of March 30th.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on April 14, 2011, 09:48:04
The CO at my CFRC told me yesterday that they had a meeting that day about this. He advised they will start using the new MOC and name this week.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mojo Magnum on April 18, 2011, 15:05:37
I am thankful to the people who keep this site running.  It is a tremendous resource to those of us who have a high GAF factor.

So here's todays questions,
Does QL5 completion exempt me from DP 2.0?

Is DP 1.1 the same as the CSN course? 
(As I can recall seeing the "IST 3's Course" sign on the door when I did it just before Christmas)

Will the DP 1.1 be a traditional 3's course with all the lovely trappings?
(I'm guessing no since it's all Cpl's on board)

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on April 18, 2011, 15:52:57
Quote from: Mojo Magnum
Does QL5 completion exempt me from DP 2.0?
Only the residetial portion. You will still have to complete the distance learning portion.
Quote from: Mojo Magnum
Will the DP 1.1 be a traditional 3's course with all the lovely trappings?
(I'm guessing no since it's all Cpl's on board)
DP1.0 will be closer to the former Sig Op QL3.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on May 05, 2011, 21:22:27
Anyone heard anything lately?  Lots of dead air from the managers and nothing but shrugs from the chain of command.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 05, 2011, 21:26:15
Fingers crossed someone with some sense got a hold of this and killed it? I think they're waiting on paperwork, though.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on May 05, 2011, 22:11:59
Just waiting to find out when the DL portion of DP2.0 will be available, since everyone needs to take it now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigs Pig on May 05, 2011, 23:02:34
Back in Jan or Feb we (reserve unit) were asked to pick a date for the DP2.0 (DL) and I selected a date in Aug of this year. Two weeks ago we were informed that QL5 qualified did not have to do the DL portion.

??? ???
ME
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on May 05, 2011, 23:42:09
We were told that everyone QL5 qualified and up has to do it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Baywop on May 06, 2011, 09:46:16
We were told that everyone QL5 qualified and up has to do it.

We were told everyone QL5 and up will have to do a modernization DL package not the DP2 DL which is tied to the residency piece.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on May 14, 2011, 18:09:31
Me thinks it's time to re badge. I detect a basket full of flames on the horizon.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on May 14, 2011, 19:24:10
If you are selected for DP 2.0 you will rcv a DNDLearn PW and login to complete the DL. For you aspiring DP 2s...RTFQ on the DL and take your time doing it. For the Reg guys...it is a career crse and if you calf on the DL you will not go for the Resedency portion and your file will go to a CRB.

For the Reservists....if you only have a portion of the legacy Journeyman of QL-5...you WILL be required to complete the ACISS DP 2...no questions of exemptions.

LJ: The 052s are doing pretty well with the DP2 despite the changes in the branch...I didn't say they were happy about though...lol.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 14, 2011, 21:35:59
Anyone else notice the results for the PLARs is not on the Sharepoint anymore?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on May 15, 2011, 18:22:59
Anyone else notice the results for the PLARs is not on the Sharepoint anymore?

Yup.  Noticed that on Wednesday or Thursday last week.
 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 23, 2011, 15:28:52
Any new rumors of Spec Pay?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on June 23, 2011, 16:25:00
Not going to happen.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on June 23, 2011, 16:43:09
Not going to happen.

Are you referring to those pers who didn't have Spec 1 before, or to the entire ACISS trade?

The CSTs losing Spec would go over like the proverbial lead balloon.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 23, 2011, 19:42:16
Any new rumors of Spec Pay?

Can of worms. If part of the trade gets it and part doesn't, no one will want to stay in the part that doesn't and we'll be in the same place as we were before with manning levels. The paperwork is in, we're in watch and shoot mode.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on June 25, 2011, 01:36:33
If only we could watch and SHOOT. The last brief in Edmonton was a gong show of no answers to questions that were posed. ACISS should be a dance move for how many times he danced around the question and went off on another tangent. Sticking your head in the sand is not providing info. I think we have been sent in the wrong direction, creation of the IS Tech trade would have been a much simpler solution, instead of reinventing the Signals world.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sigger on June 27, 2011, 09:10:32
Can of worms. If part of the trade gets it and part doesn't, no one will want to stay in the part that doesn't and we'll be in the same place as we were before with manning levels. The paperwork is in, we're in watch and shoot mode.

Understood.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on June 30, 2011, 11:42:55
The whole thing is a disaster; a complete and utter cockup.  The powers that be cannot answer simple questions.  No one knows what they are anymore and 70 PYs diverted to the school when the line units are struggling without enough Signallers.  Nothing to do but soldier on until someone sends me my new hat in the mail with instructions on how to wear it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Lare on July 01, 2011, 21:42:07
Anyone know what a fresh off BMQ Sigop can expect at this time? I understand there is quite a long wait time and the last few sigs to graduate here a couple weeks back were sent to Pet and Gage for OJT.

Are they currently running any QL3's (or DP1.0's) at the moment? And if they are having they in fact flipped to the 3 month course, or still running the 6 month course?

I must admit its a little daunting coming in to this trade where theres no real solid info on whats happening. Even our Sigs Mcpl can't get a straight answer from anyone!

As aside, before someone says it, I'm not regretting my choice here at all, just would like even a general idea of whats happening, sucks when our entire platoon is all excited with their posting messages and being and to plan their next 2-4 years, when we Sigs still don't even know what province we'll be in!

Hopefully they can figure out what to do with us before we grad in a week heh...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on July 14, 2011, 14:22:00
So do you have to be loaded on a course to access the DL material? And if the DL is supposed to take X days to complete, do you have to wait until X days before the residency to start working on it?

I ask because the DL mods seem to be scheduled on the CFSCE calendar with start and end dates. Really I'd prefer to self-enrol and complete the trg on my own schedule, if possible.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Lare on July 16, 2011, 11:47:09
Got my answer: PAT Plt. in Wainwright for an unknown duration.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on August 08, 2011, 09:33:13
Wow, so that won't make people want to quit.

I've submitted my PLAR awhile back and I've heard absolutely nothing at all as of yet. My name has sat unchanged on the dreaded ACISS DIN website, only to have been deleted a few times and re-added.

I highly doubt with the current fiscal goals (to find savings of 5%-10% in DND alone) that any of our new 'trades' will be receiving spec pay either. Wasn't counting on it, won't count it but, but I'll hold out a tiny piece of hope that we still might. -IST subtrade that is.

Hopefully by Jan-Feb we'll know something. If I get my placement I'll post on here what I ended up being pegged as. Seeing as I've been in an IST job since I joined, I'd be shocked if I was put into anything else.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: rmc_wannabe on August 08, 2011, 10:45:27
I'm in the same boat as you Joe.

Hoping that the Writing boards finally finish up soon for these DP courses so I can find out what I've already done and can sleep through. I will be thrilled if I have to re do Intro to Mircocomputers  ::).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on August 08, 2011, 13:13:09
Well son of a B....

I was going to go on as to how all the info was there now, but that would have been for not!

The info was posted there two weeks ago.  I checked it out and found out everything.  What I was granted, what trg I had to do to be fully quallified, my next DP core level, my next DP level specialty.....

All the info less the "PLAR Reviewed" was deleted five days ago by DLCI.

good thing I printed it out!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on August 30, 2011, 09:14:55
Setup an 'alert' for yourself on that site so that it emails you the moment anything is actually changed. That's how I seen that info your talking about on myself before it was axed... Strange though why they would go through all the work of putting it in and then deleting it.

Who knows, maybe it was a database malfunction!

They should call an IST to the rescue!!! Oh... Wait.... Nvm....  :facepalm:

 :piper:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on August 30, 2011, 10:30:17
I did inquire about data being deleted and here is the answer I got from CLS DLCI:

"We have 2 systems to manage this data - The one you see is a subset of the data with the rest intentionally stripped out to conform to requirements necessary for general consumption. The rest of the data is still being tracked, but on a closed system for use by MES managers and LFDTS to assist in carreer development efforts.

All of the relevant data for each soldier will still be displayed on the public site which you have listed below. The stripped information is mostly that which was sent to DAT in support of PLARs, and was removed from public view for the sake of privacy. More information should be available on Monitor MASS where the viewers authenication is easier to process.
The results of PLARs should be communicated back to the units using a more formal process of notification through the chain of command. "


Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on August 31, 2011, 09:22:54
Ah, interesting. Thanks for the info!

So it appears that the site will still be updated but I'm going to say that the response from them basically says the website is on the backburner and they're doing the real meat and bones work behind the scenes.

UPDATE:
I just so happened to check my MPRR yesterday and noticed a big update. All the courses I challenged for I received the qualifications! It still doesn't have a new MOSID and it still says SIG OP for my trade, but my PLAR for IST obviously went through the system and has been approved. So, those of you whom have submitted for IST, check your MPRR / Monitor mass!

I did inquire about data being deleted and here is the answer I got from CLS DLCI:

"We have 2 systems to manage this data - The one you see is a subset of the data with the rest intentionally stripped out to conform to requirements necessary for general consumption. The rest of the data is still being tracked, but on a closed system for use by MES managers and LFDTS to assist in carreer development efforts.

All of the relevant data for each soldier will still be displayed on the public site which you have listed below. The stripped information is mostly that which was sent to DAT in support of PLARs, and was removed from public view for the sake of privacy. More information should be available on Monitor MASS where the viewers authenication is easier to process.
The results of PLARs should be communicated back to the units using a more formal process of notification through the chain of command. "
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Cobrajr on September 07, 2011, 22:55:26
Hey guys,
I have been playing the waiting in the dark game for too long and need some answers on this. Hopefully somebody here can clear the mud a little bit.

I joined a little over 3 years ago and signed as an LCIS NCN-SEP.
I went to school, got my fancy piece of paper, did BMQ and many months of OJT as an LCIS.

Now I am sitting on PAT in kingston about to go on LSVW and SQ courses but LCIS courses do not exist.
I have been told that I am still going to be LCIS, but I am watching others around me get changed over to ACISS and get put on the ACISS course.

- How are courses going to work for me? Do I still have to do all the sigop and lineman stuff or do i get shunted straight to the LCIS stuff?
- What will my POET equivalent civi schooling count for now?

This is becoming a real headace and I am considing just OTing to ATIS, but that means sitting on PAT for many more months >_>
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on September 08, 2011, 01:09:51
Basically you're going to be streamlined into the CST occupation, which means you'll do the common DP1 and then the CST DP1.1 and get posted to your unit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on September 09, 2011, 06:24:11
Hey guys,
I have been playing the waiting in the dark game for too long and need some answers on this. Hopefully somebody here can clear the mud a little bit.

I joined a little over 3 years ago and signed as an LCIS NCN-SEP.
I went to school, got my fancy piece of paper, did BMQ and many months of OJT as an LCIS.

Now I am sitting on PAT in kingston about to go on LSVW and SQ courses but LCIS courses do not exist.
I have been told that I am still going to be LCIS, but I am watching others around me get changed over to ACISS and get put on the ACISS course.

- How are courses going to work for me? Do I still have to do all the sigop and lineman stuff or do i get shunted straight to the LCIS stuff?
- What will my POET equivalent civi schooling count for now?

This is becoming a real headace and I am considing just OTing to ATIS, but that means sitting on PAT for many more months >_>

PuckChaser is right, but to clarify and specify, everyone is getting punted into the common DP1, the 'ACISS' course, then you'll be shoved off to a unit and put into the LCIS section/shop. You're already branded cattle where new people joining are NOT.

Don't worry too much, enjoy your SQ, I had fun on it! LSVW offroading is alright too, you're at the start of your career, take it all in, good and the bad =)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on September 10, 2011, 04:47:01
Another update, checked the ACISS COTS website today, shows now that I have been given the green thumbs up to being listed as an IST.

Everyone in my section who put in for IST received the stamp!

I cannot click on myself anymore and see what equivalency level I've been placed or what training they require me to take next though. I'm going to assume that will all come down through the trusty chain of command eventually...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on September 22, 2011, 09:17:50
Conspicuously absent:  any reference to Specialist Pay.



P R 201455Z SEP 11
FM NDHQ DGMP OTTAWA//DPGR//

UNCLAS DPGR 012/11
SECTION 1 OF 2
SUBJ: (ACISS) ARMY COMMUNICATION AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS SPECIALIST
OCCUPATION MILITARY EMPLOYMENT STRUCTURE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (MES
IP)
1. THIS MES IP WILL COME INTO EFFECT 01 OCT 11
2. WHEN IMPLEMENTED, THIS MES IP WILL AMALGAMATE THE LEGACY
OCCUPATIONS OF LCIS TECH - 00110, SIG OP - 00329 AND LMN - 00015 TO
FORM THE NEW ACISS, MOSID 00362, OCCUPATION. UPON COMPULSORY
OCCUPATION TRANSFER FROM THE LEGACY OCCUPATIONS, MEMBERS WILL BE
ASSIGNED TO THE ACISS PARENT OCCUPATION OR ONE OF ITS THREE
TECHNOLOGIST SUB-OCCUPATIONS OF:  COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS TECHNOLOGIST
(CST), INFORMATION SYSTEMS TECHNOLOGIST (IST) OR LINE SYSTEMS
TECHNOLOGIST (LST), OR IN THE FOURTH CAPPING SUB-OCCUPATION OF:
COMMUNICATION AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS TECHNOLOGY MANAGER (CISTM)
3. THE EXECUTION OF THIS MES IP WILL BEGIN THE SHIFT AWAY FROM USING
THE TRADITIONAL INTEGRATED OCCUPATIONAL SPECIFICATION (IOS) BY
MOVING TO A NEW JOB BASED SPECIFICATION (JBS) THAT FOCUSES ON
DESCRIBING THE WORK PERFORMED IN EACH OF THE JOBS ASSOCIATED WITH AN
OCCUPATION. THESE JOB DESCRIPTIONS CAN THEN BE USED TO ACCURATELY
DEFINE REQUIREMENTS FOR OCCUPATIONAL EMPLOYMENT, TRAINING AND
QUALIFICATIONS. ACCORDINGLY, THE ACISS OCCUPATION HAS BEEN DEVELOPED
BY BUILDING A HIERARCHICAL FRAMEWORK OF JOBS THAT DEFINE ALL OF THE
EMPLOYMENT QUALIFICATION REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION
4. JOB BASED SPECIFICATION (JBS). THE NEW ACISS JBS WILL BE POSTED
TO THE DPGR WEBSITE UPON APPROVAL AND TRANSLATION
5. JOB DESCRIPTIONS. THERE ARE 161 JOB DESCRIPTIONS FOR THE ACISS
OCCUPATION AND ITS SUB-OCCUPATIONS AND THEY ARE INCORPORATED INTO
THE JBS. COPIES OF THESE JDS WILL BE AVAILABLE THROUGH DPGR 7 UPON
REQUEST
6. EMPLOYMENT QUALIFICATIONS. FOUR RANK QUALIFICATIONS AND 67 UNIQUE
SPECIALTY QUALIFICATIONS HAVE BEEN CREATED IN SUPPORT OF THE ACISS
OCCUPATION.  QUALIFICATION CODES WILL BE CREATED TO TRACK THE
EMPLOYMENT REQUIREMENTS FOR THE NEW ACISS OCCUPATION WITHIN HRMS.
THE CURRENT LIST OF SPECIALTY SPECIFICATIONS WILL BE REVIEWED AND
UPDATED AS PART OF THE MES IP
7. OCCUPATION GROUPS. NEW OCCUPATION GROUPS WILL BE CREATED FOR THE
NEW ACISS OCCUPATION.  IN ADDITION, REFERENCE TO THE LCIS TECH, LMN
AND SIG OP OCCUPATIONS WILL BE REMOVED FROM ALL EXISTING OCC GRPS
8. ESTABLISHMENT. AS A RESULT OF MOVING TO A JOB BASED SYSTEM EVERY
POSITION IN THE THREE LEGACY OCCUPATIONS WILL BE LINKED TO A
SPECIFIC JOB IN THE NEW ACISS OCCUPATION AND THE MES IP WILL
DOCUMENT THOSE LINKAGES
9. MANNING. THE OCCUPATION WILL CONTINUE TO BE MANNED THROUGH THE
ENROLMENT OF RECRUITS AND OTHER INTAKE SOURCES AS REQUIRED. THE
RANGE IN RANK WILL BE FROM PTE TO CWO
10. PRIMARY RESERVE (P RES). MEMBERS OF THE P RES COMPONENT OF THE
LEGACY OCCUPATIONS WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFERRED TO THE P RES
ACISS STRUCTURE. THEY WILL FOLLOW THE TRAINING AND PROGRESSION
STREAMS SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIED FOR THE RES F MEMBERS IN THE ACISS
JBS AND IAW THEIR EMPLOYMENT REQUIREMENTS. OCCUPATIONAL MANNING WILL
BE ESTABLISHED THROUGH ENVIRONMENTAL DEMANDS AND QUOTAS. THE RANGE
IN RANK WILL BE FROM PTE TO CWO
11. CAREER MANAGEMENT. PERSONNEL IN THE ACISS OCCUPATION WILL
CONTINUE TO BE MANAGED BY D MIL C 5
12. TRAINING. CLS WILL REMAIN THE TRAINING AUTHORITY FOR THE NEW
OCCUPATION. MODIFICATIONS TO EXISTING TRG WILL BE NEEDED TO
IMPLEMENT THE NEW ACISS JBS WHICH WILL TRANSITION THE OCCUPATION
FROM THE TRADITIONAL OCCUPATIONALLY BASED QUALIFICATIONS TO THE NEW
JOB BASED STRUCTURE AND ITS ASSOCIATED EMPLOYMENT QUALIFICATIONS.
ACISS TRAINING COMMENCED 04 JAN 11 THROUGH CFSCE KINGSTON
13. ENROLMENT REQUIREMENTS. THE ACISS OCCUPATION WILL DRAW ITS
PERSONNEL FROM THE RECRUIT POPULATION AND OTHER INTAKE SOURCES. THE
ENROLMENT CRITERIA WILL BE COMMON TO THE ENTIRE OCCUPATION IAW CFAO
49-4 AND DAOD 5002-1
14. MEDICAL CATEGORY. THE MIN MEDICAL STANDARD FOR ENTRY INTO ACISS
AND FOR CONTINUED PROGRESSION WITHIN THE OCC WILL BE 423225
15. SECURITY CLEARANCE. SECURITY CLEARANCE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE
ACISS OCCUPATION WILL BE LEVEL III. SOME JOBS MAY REQUIRE A HIGHER
LEVEL IN ORDER TO SUPPORT SPECIFIC JOB REQUIREMENTS OR THE LOCATION
WHERE THE WORK IS BEING PERFORMED
16. BRANCH AFFILIATION AND DEU. THE ACISS OCCUPATION WILL BE
ASSOCIATED WITH THE COMMUNICATION AND ELECTRONICS BRANCH AND CLS
WILL BE THE OCC AUTH. DEU FOR ALL PERSONNEL WILL BE ARMY
ENVIRONMENTAL
17. RECORDS/HRMS. BOTH AUTOMATED AND HARD COPY OF PERSONNEL RECORDS
WILL REQUIRE UPDATING AS A RESULT OF THIS IP
18. SUMMARY OF COSTS. THE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS MES IP WILL BE
ABSORBED WITHIN EXISTING ANNUAL BUDGETS. RECRUITING SUPPORT PRODUCTS
WILL BE FUNDED BY ADM(PA)/DGM/DMA
19. PUBLICATION AMENDMENTS. PUBLICATION AMENDMENTS WILL BE CARRIED
OUT DURING REGULAR PERIODIC UPDATES
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on September 22, 2011, 09:41:25
Only 2 years after they originally wanted to stand it up they finally have an official date. By the time they make a decision on spec pay I'll either be promoted high enough that I won't get it, or I'll be retired.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Mojo Magnum on September 23, 2011, 18:37:17
Hmmm, so PLD and LDA are on the chopping block and spec is proving ellusive at best.  I'm thinking I may have to revive my Pizza Delivery skills.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on October 25, 2011, 20:24:27
I heard there's a message out confirming no spec pay for anyone, including techs from my CoC, but I haven't seen the message.

Can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FreeFloat on October 25, 2011, 20:32:39
There was nothing new on the CANFORGEN front when I looked today, but I can check again tomorrow.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on October 25, 2011, 20:34:10
There was nothing new on the CANFORGEN front when I looked today, but I can check again tomorrow.

I don't think it would be a CANFORGEN. the MES IP Message wasn't
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 25, 2011, 20:40:04
I heard there's a message out confirming no spec pay for anyone, including techs from my CoC, but I haven't seen the message.

Can anyone confirm?

HMMMMM, thats odd. YOU have no Techs in your CoC. They are all in mine. And from DCLI Spec will remain the domain of LCIS trained Techs. I have seen all the traffic as the Senior Tech within the Regt. Enjoy your DL.

PM inbound
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on October 25, 2011, 20:42:48
HMMMMM, thats odd. YOU have no Techs in your CoC. They are all in mine.

True, s'why I asked here.

Enjoy your DL.

DL's...irritating...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 25, 2011, 20:56:49
If only the DLs were Drill Cane/Pace Stick length again. Then there would be a positive learning environment again.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: BulletMagnet on October 25, 2011, 21:07:57
you just wont stop whining huh BW....

A good NCO accepts the bad when told to, so how about you just get on with it eh  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 25, 2011, 21:08:26
The pay review is not taking place until sometime in November according to the Mess errrrrr...MES Manager.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 25, 2011, 21:21:41
The Email from the Occupation Mgr has stated LCIS trained techs will not lose Spec pay.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 25, 2011, 21:27:34
The Email from the Occupation Mgr has stated LCIS trained techs will not lose Spec pay.

It would be a terrible retention strategy if they did.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 25, 2011, 22:23:22
The entire ACISS program is a terible retention plan. Look at the branch website. How many Sig Ops jumped ship this year? Lots. So retention has never been part of the plan. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 25, 2011, 23:23:39
The entire ACISS program is a terible retention plan. Look at the branch website. How many Sig Ops jumped ship this year? Lots. So retention has never been part of the plan.

This isn't a plan for the ACISS Core. Everything I've heard makes it sound like SigOps are now second-class citizens compared to all the super-elite sub occs. I'm of the mind to wait and see how this works out, but the information coming down the pipe really makes me question why I wanted to do TacRad. At least if things crash and burn, my VIE is up in 2013 and I'm not on the hook for $20,000 if I want out of the C&E Branch. As you pointed out a lot of guys jumped early so they won't get sucked down by the ship.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 26, 2011, 00:24:46
And many of those pers were the senior people, its not your granddaddy's TacRad anymore.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 26, 2011, 02:15:00
And many of those pers were the senior people, its not your granddaddy's TacRad anymore.

Nope...not at all.  Have you seen the new headset?

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on October 26, 2011, 09:12:31
Resistance to the ACISS transition is futile...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on October 26, 2011, 10:13:55
Your occupation's distinctiveness will be added to our own.

(Couldn't resist.)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 26, 2011, 13:03:11
It's a mind over matter issue. I don't mind being a LCIS Tech, so ACISS doesn't matter.   >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 28, 2011, 10:23:49
Another "wooops!"...



R 261851Z OCT 11
FM NDHQ CLS OTTAWA//DLCI//
TO AIG 1703
AIG 1764
AIG 1840
INFO ZEN/NDHQ DGMP OTTAWA//DPGR//
ZEN/NDHQ DGMC OTTAWA
ZEN/NDHQ ASST CMP//DHRIM//
ZEN/NDHQ DG FIN OPS OTTAWA//DMPAPA//
BT
UNCLAS CLS 058/11
SUBJ: ARMY COMMUNICATION AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS SPECIALIST (ACISS)
OCCUPATION - PAY ISSUE
REFS: A.  5555-31-00362 (DPGR 2-7) 30 JUNE 11
B.  DPGR 012/11 201455Z SEP 11
C.  CFAO 11-12
D.  CBI 204.03
1. ON 1 OCT 11, THE LCIS TECH - 00110, SIG OP - 00329 AND LMN -
00015 OCCUPATIONS WERE DISBANDED AND THE NEW ARMY COMMUNICATION AND
INFORMATION SYSTEMS SPECIALIST (ACISS) - 00362 OCCUPATION WAS STOOD
UP. ON THE SAME DATE, MEMBERS OF THE LEGACY OCCUPATIONS WERE
COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFERRED (COT) TO THE ACISS OCCUPATION OR
ONE OF ITS SUB-OCCUPATIONS IAW REFS C AND D. UNDER THESE CONDITIONS,
THE PAY ENTITLEMENT IS BASED ON THE RATE OF PAY THE MEMBER WAS
RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MEMBER S TRANSFER
2. THE ARMY HQ HAS BEEN ADVISED THAT A TECHNICAL ERROR OCCURRED
DURING THE TRANSFER OF THE AFFECTED PERSONNEL THAT NEGATIVELY
IMPACTED THE PAY OF FORMER MEMBERS OF THE LCIS TECH OCCUPATION CPL
TO MWO IN BOTH REG F AND P RES F. WE ARE LOOKING INTO THE ISSUE AND
ARE IN CONTACT WITH CONCERNED OFFICES OF PRIMARY INTEREST (OPI) TO
HAVE THE SITUATION RECTIFIED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AND ENSURE THAT ALL
MEMBERS ARE IN RECEIPT OF THEIR FULL PAY ENTITLEMENT.
3. UNTIL THE SITUATION IS CORRECTED IN THE CENTRAL COMPUTERIZED PAY
SYSTEM (CCPS), DIRECTOR MILITARY PAY AND ACCOUNTS PROCESSING (DMPAP)
ISSUED AN ADVISORY TO ACCOUNTING OFFICERS AND CHIEF CLERKS TO THE
EFFECT THAT UNITS ARE TO PROTECT THE PAY OF AFFECTED MEMBERS.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on October 28, 2011, 13:24:54
The techs I know are shaking their heads... this is yet another indication that the people in charge of this are out to lunch.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 28, 2011, 13:57:56
The techs I know are shaking their heads... this is yet another indication that the people in charge of this are out to lunch.

"Let's drop their spec pay, and see if they notice.  If they do, we'll blame it on a technical glitch".

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IBM on October 28, 2011, 18:43:29
The techs I know are shaking their heads... this is yet another indication that the people in charge of this are out to lunch.

Wait, there were actually PEOPLE in charge of this? And all this time I thought they delegated the work to some hamster on a wheel somewhere in a basement at NDHQ. Although, with the amount of fubar so far, they might as well have.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 28, 2011, 19:13:46
The techs I know are shaking their heads... this is yet another indication that the people in charge of this are out to lunch.

Your first clue should have been all the side stepping and avoidance of questions at every briefing by the MES team. Those of us that have some common dog all knew the only requirement was to stand up trade #4 and designate it to be the Information Systems Administrators. There done, no muss, no fuss, no releases and confusion by the boat load. MES Tm effectiveness LEFT JUSTIFIED.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on October 28, 2011, 19:19:04
MES Tm effectiveness LEFT JUSTIFIED.

But leading change is all the way to the Right!!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 28, 2011, 20:05:27
As they take the final step off the cliff edge.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on October 28, 2011, 20:32:26
4 MORE YEARS!!!...4 MORE YEARS!!!...(until retirement)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on October 28, 2011, 20:38:50
2017 can't come soon enough. OH to be ACISS free.....can you get pills to cure it?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ayo23 on November 03, 2011, 21:59:07
So is SQ for ACISS definitely 10 weeks now? I remember back when LCIS Tech was listed SQ was only 21 days.   
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: lcis00110 on November 04, 2011, 00:55:53
So, my pay was supposed to be protected.... well guess what, IT WASN'T!!!  I'm sick of this dungheep!!!  The big giant heads that be who made up this so called ACISS crap outta have their heads examined.  Oh yeah, they only did it to score points so they can make their way out of a staff position and have their own frickin' office in NDHQ!!!  Bonetards!!!  (sorry, just venting)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 04, 2011, 13:29:37
Units are protecting members pay.

IE.  JSR in kingston is depositing the missing amount as a misc deposit directly into to members bank account until such a time as the clerical error is sorted out.

So, before deciding Christmas is cancelled this year. See your CoC, or clerk ( as applicable ) .

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Pte Cherry on November 04, 2011, 17:44:03
they should have just created a new trade IST and let sig ops and techs re-muster into it, but we need more operators so they made this.
Oh well we can cry and ***** about it all we want but it's not going to change. Not any time soon anyways, not till we get all the dinosaurs
that were around for Cyprus out and retired. We need to just accept it and make the best of it.
The Sig ops and future ACISS that do tac rad with Cbt arms units will call themselves rad ops and be proud of it, the Linemen will save the "V",
and as far as the techs goes; the only things they ever cared for is their spec pay and pretending they are smarter then then everybody else.
 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 04, 2011, 18:18:42
they should have just created a new trade IST etc, etc...

Thank-you Pte Cherry for weighing in with your extensive experience within the Branch and summarizing so eloquently some of the main points already articulated within this thread.  I've been around since Cyprus does that make me a dinosaur?  In fact, last I checked the map Cyprus was still on it, and *GASP* we still had personnel there.  Plenty of Senior Tradesmen do not support this initiative (ME, ME...LOOK AT ME!!) so rein it in a little bit.  As for this chestnut:

The Sig ops and future ACISS that do tac rad with Cbt arms units will call themselves rad ops and be proud of it, the Linemen will save the "V",  and as far as the techs goes; the only things they ever cared for is their spec pay and pretending they are smarter then then everybody else.

1.  The new folks being fed into the sausage grinder won't even know what those animals are let alone refer to themselves as one.

2.  I will make you proud and do my part to "save the V" whatever that means.  Velox?  Versutus?  Vigilans?  Five?  Is the letter V endangered?

3.  I've met plenty of Techs who care far too much and ARE smarter than everybody else so I guess I can kind of relate.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on November 04, 2011, 19:42:47
Pte Cherry,

You must be right off your rocker to think that the LCIS Techs are only concerned about our pay. If the Sig Ops would sit down and learn more about TCCCS so they would become proficient, we Techs wouldn't give them such a hard time of it. So this should be an opportunity for you to go on listening watch, and learn what the Army Signals do. Don't bother riding the Sig Op high horse, because you don't have the first clue on how to do it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on November 04, 2011, 20:41:15
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 04, 2011, 22:45:42
Don't bother riding the Sig Op high horse, because you don't have the first clue on how to do it.

As opposed to the LCIS Tech high horse? Let's not play the us vs them game because I've seen some techs that don't have a clue how to troubleshoot TCCCS, just as you've seen SigOps without a lot of TCCCS knowledge.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 04, 2011, 23:29:50
All right children...time to tweak the programming.  Now altogether repeat after me:

"We are ACISS. Existence, as you know it, is over. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on November 05, 2011, 12:24:23
2.  I will make you proud and do my part to "save the V" whatever that means.  Velox?  Versutus?  Vigilans?  Five?  Is the letter V endangered?

Velociraptor.    ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Pte Cherry on November 07, 2011, 05:35:44
Ok, I will admit dinosaurs was harsh. I am just upset with the lack of information and planning going on with the branch as well as OP Abortion
As far as Cyprus goes yes we still have all of, oh yeah, 1 officer there. That doesn't include Medics and MPs that run decompression of course.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Lare on November 07, 2011, 23:44:34
So is SQ for ACISS definitely 10 weeks now? I remember back when LCIS Tech was listed SQ was only 21 days.

Myself and a few other Sig.... ACISS (both people recruited as SigOps and LCIS) just went through SQ... BMQ (L), and it was indeed 21 training days (1 month). Not sure where this 10 weeks business is coming from, we we're told it used to be 5 weeks, but they had recently cut it back to 4 weeks (don't let the 21 training days thing fool you, we had 1 full day off). In fact, ours was the first to run the 4 week course as we had people from the same PAT plt's leave a week or two earlier than us running the 5 week course. 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 08, 2011, 00:20:57
Velociraptor.    ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 27, 2011, 10:53:53
We has a Mes managers briefing last week.  Still a lot of unanswered questions.  Although they seem to have figured out how to top off the electronics training missed by not doing a full POET.
They are going to purchase CDs ( at $1500 a lisence  ) that members can do on their spare time at work. 
 Pure Genius !

One small light for the LCIS techs who were tricked into choosing IST.  If your PLAR is not complete, don't finish it before Dec 31st, and you will be automatically moved to CST. 
Unless of course, if you prefer to answer the phone with " help desk" .
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on November 27, 2011, 12:16:22
Nice, Thanks for that info Rob. Funny how alot of the ISTs want to jump ship already.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on November 27, 2011, 12:54:00
Not sure where this 10 weeks business is coming from,

Easy answer... the info hasn't been updated to reflect the changes in training days.  It's was listed as 10 weeks for years,  was never updated for when SQ was 7 weeks(when I did it) and it still hasn't been changed now that the course is BMQ-Land and only a month long.

It's been updated now though, well kind of.. still using the old course name.
http://www.forces.ca/en/job/signaloperator-16#education-2

Quote
Soldier Qualification
 
On successful completion of BMQ, Signal Operators go to a Military Training Centre for the Soldier Qualification (SQ) course, which lasts 20 training days and covers the following topics:
 • Army physical fitness;
• dismounted offensive and defensive operations;
• reconnaissance patrolling;
• advanced weapons-handling (working with grenades, machine-guns and anti tank weapons); and
• individual field-craft.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GreenIsGood on November 29, 2011, 03:57:38
The ACISS Fact Sheet ( http://www.forces.ca/en/job/armycommunicationandinformationsystemsspecialist-171#education-2 ) still states that SQ is 10 weeks long.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 29, 2011, 22:22:13
Nice, Thanks for that info Rob. Funny how alot of the ISTs want to jump ship already.

Jump ship to CST or to ACISS core? From everything I've heard, I have no idea why anyone would want to be ACISS core, MES is designed to give Linemen and helpdesk people specpay, thats it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 29, 2011, 23:28:52
Jump ship to CST or to ACISS core? From everything I've heard, I have no idea why anyone would want to be ACISS core, MES is designed to give Linemen and helpdesk people specpay, thats it.

Now we've definitely flipped this on it's head.  This thread has run the gamut; from people (like me) saying this was a save the Rad Op effort to you now saying it is only designed to give Linemen and IS guys spec pay.  To tell you the truth, with Chief Comm Op now being a CISTM occupation I'm not exactly sure what the core occupation is for.  I think the only solution to this mess is to amalgamate ACISS core with IST and then double hat them (we'll call it Phase I).  Once this is complete we should split off the sub-occupations (Phase II) into separate stand alone, silo structured occupations.  We can call the whole effort the Wider Telecommunications (re-) Formulation or WTF.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on November 30, 2011, 09:19:18
Very nice Swingline. I fully agree with you on the fact this is turning into a gong show. There is no info on anything trade related that is any firmer than jello. Will the CISTMs be able to go back and forth between core ACISS job and sub Traded CISTM jobs? I think they should as all the implementation team has been spouting is "you must be qualified the core job to be in a sub-occupation". To me this says that CISTM are twice as employable than the core ACISS. Picking and choosing our postings very well in relation to what is available.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on November 30, 2011, 14:23:06
Nice, Thanks for that info Rob. Funny how alot of the ISTs want to jump ship already.

I think the only people trying to claw they're way out of IST are the people whom thought they could jump on the 'gravy' boat that would be getting Spec pay (I don't think anyone will be myself) and now that they realize it hasn't materialized, they want they're 'old' job back. Whatever the reason, I don't care, if they don't want to be an IST, I don't want  them in my new trade... The only good IST's will be the ones whom want to do that type of job, those who want to be techno-geeks and challenged in that fashion.

It's unfortunate we don't have any further info from higher but maybe this is it, no real game-changing strategy, just continue on. The only other difference is that all our newly minted 'IST' guys are being placed into the same troop at the Sqn. That surprisingly seems like common sense!

Oh, and I suppose we'll see the first big difference when the brand new ACISS dudes from the school show up. We'll see how useful or not they are.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on November 30, 2011, 20:17:36
CFJSR has 16 showing up next week and one of the Sgts in my Tp has been tasked to manage them while they go through thier "OJT" (contact training , whatever) so in essence they belong to my Tp.  I will let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 30, 2011, 21:07:24
I think the only people trying to claw they're way out of IST are the people whom thought they could jump on the 'gravy' boat that would be getting Spec pay

I cant recall any of the former Sig OPs who were assigned IST that are bugging to switch to core.

I do however, know more than just a few LCIS techs who either were assigned IST or who wanted IST ( and have to submit a plar) who have now changed their minds for one reason or another.   I suspect it has something to do with the small chance IST guys will actually be working on networks, ( and I  mean beyond the current local admin guys who come over and re-baseline your computer )  and the greater chance they will be working at CFNOC or their local help desk.

I just feel that the sub occupation with the most smoke and mirrors in their trade specs is the IST sub.  That great unknown is what has a lot of the former LCIS techs who were exploring the IST route re-evaluating their decision.



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GreenIsGood on December 01, 2011, 18:57:28
I suspect it has something to do with the small chance IST guys will actually be working on networks, ( and I  mean beyond the current local admin guys who come over and re-baseline your computer )  and the greater chance they will be working at CFNOC or their local help desk.

So which trade or sub-occupation of ACCISS will be working on the networks (design, operation and maintenance ) ?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 01, 2011, 20:38:47
So which trade or sub-occupation of ACCISS will be working on the networks (design, operation and maintenance ) ?

IST...but I don't know where you got "design" from.  They won't be doing any designing, either before the trade amalgamation or after.  Operation and maintenance, sure.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 01, 2011, 20:58:30
Someone needs to polish the Help Desk.  >:D That will probably be it for the maint portion.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 01, 2011, 21:11:10
IST...but I don't know where you got "design" from.  They won't be doing any designing, either before the trade amalgamation or after.  Operation and maintenance, sure.

And hopefully Shared Services doesn't take too big a bite out of their (IST) lunch either.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 01, 2011, 21:16:29
And hopefully Shared Services doesn't take too big a bite out of their (IST) lunch either.

I think it's a foregone conclusion that they (SSC) will.  I really don't know how military personnel will be loaned out to be employed in a separate gov't department to work on DWAN and part of SABNS.  I think those positions will go the way of the dodo - and that's simply my opinion, based on watching things in the IT world of DND in Ottawa for the last few years.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GreenIsGood on December 02, 2011, 00:39:54
IST...but I don't know where you got "design" from.
I got it from the ACCISS promo video ( http://www.forces.ca/en/job/armycommunicationandinformationsystemsspecialist-171 ) which states "...we design, install and maintain satellite, wireless and cable networks...".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 02, 2011, 00:53:18
I got it from the ACCISS promo video ( http://www.forces.ca/en/job/armycommunicationandinformationsystemsspecialist-171 ) which states "...we design, install and maintain satellite, wireless and cable networks...".

That was an overarching statement which encompassed the entire ACISS occupation.  Red/black infrastructure and network design will more than likely remain the realm of IM Group and more specifically DGIMT (parts of which are splitting off with Shared Services) with input from the technical Warrant Officers and above (and to some extent the Sgts) i.e. CISTM sub-occ.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 02, 2011, 00:59:28
I got it from the ACCISS promo video ( http://www.forces.ca/en/job/armycommunicationandinformationsystemsspecialist-171 ) which states "...we design, install and maintain satellite, wireless and cable networks...".

I think someone may have taken a little artistic licence with the design aspect.  Certainly not design in the same sense that civvie street would use the term.  Even in the field, the ACISS folks are going to "hook up" to an existing network using portable gear in a predetermined configuration - no designing involved.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on December 02, 2011, 10:33:23
Any one remember SIS tech ?

I thinnk that in a couple years we may be saying " anyone remember that IST trade ? "
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on December 02, 2011, 13:44:19
Highly improbable that the IST trade will ever go away now. The amalgamation might disappear over time, but I think the IST trade is here to stay. It was only a matter of time before the army finally had a recognized IT trade. The Brits, Aussies and Americans, Germans, any modern military has the equivalent of a dedicated IT soldier.

For my entire reg force career I've been a TacNet system admin, and finally,  now I have a true 'home' and I'm not just considered another dumb-*** Sig Op. For years some people thought I and most of the people in my section were 'techs' - of the LCIS type. We have had techs in our section and do currently! But we're not LCIS.

With all the different DND networks out there and the continuing complexity of even radios and satellite comms, IST is already a trade, now it's just finally recognized. It's always been there, regardless of the guy working at a helpdesk, TacNet, DWAN, Titan as it used to be, CSNI and the list goes on...

I'm unsure why so many people keep saying IST's will just be 'helpdesk' workers. It almost seems to me that it's the people who say that that would also say computers are stupid, difficult and shouldn't be in the army. The same people who would say LCIS techs are fing 'nerds' because they're jealous of they're attained Spec Pay. I don't know what their trying to compensate for, but if you're trying to convince yourself that the IST trade will be relegated to just 'helpdesk' to make yourself feel better, enjoy. But the reality of the matter is there is a lot of work done in different positions that most of you never see that will be IST guys doing it. Sure there will be hundreds of helpdesk positions of course, we need them to keep it all going! But there will always be a tactical field deployable network (TacNet) along with all the other goodies like the newly re-minted tactically field deployable TLAN (Deployable DWAN) kits. These all take server administrators and network administrators.

Designing networks? I've done it. So have others in my section. It used to be a few years ago, that the chain would tell us (Corporals) to 'come up with an IP plan'... They'd also be asking US how to make Visio look like a mesh topology or star topology. We would have to be the ones to explain how TCP/IP networking works or doesn't work and why the plan that the Brigade IMO came up with is an epic failure.

These days, it's less of that and more of it controlled from higher as someone else mentioned. Which actually makes our job easier! We shouldn't be planning an entire excercises network(s). Corporals are not making a Major's salary or being saluted right? You will still sometimes get the opportunity to 'make things work' though. I have while I've been overseas here, building things, sending them back home and having it implemented. Also 'made things work' before tour as well. No we may not design networks very often, but if you're going to be a real IST you'd better damn well know how to 'make things  work' and use some of those skillsets you've left on the shelf for awhile! I had to pull out some interesting solutions for not only Tacnet but also DWAN while I was here...

Furthermore, cyber-warfare is the next generation's true wars. There are elements of the government and military whom are just now forming the basis and foundation of our defenses and guess where the military side of those NCM and NCO personnel will be drawn from? .... IST! One of the job descriptions for the new trade is "Network Penetration Tester". Hint hint? As time goes on, there will only be a need for more IST and technically inclined personnel. Not less.

My rant is done now.

 :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GreenIsGood on December 02, 2011, 16:22:37
I think someone may have taken a little artistic licence with the design aspect.  Certainly not design in the same sense that civvie street would use the term.  Even in the field, the ACISS folks are going to "hook up" to an existing network using portable gear in a predetermined configuration - no designing involved.

Oh. That's definitely not as interesting as the video makes it sound. Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on December 02, 2011, 16:28:10
guess where the military side of those NCM and NCO personnel will be drawn from? .... IST!

It will not only be IST.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 02, 2011, 18:49:14
It will not only be IST.

That's right....ATIS Techs will be there to ensure the job gets done right.   ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 02, 2011, 23:00:34
That's right....ATIS Techs will be there to  speak Klingon and eat all your donuts.

There, fixed that for you!   ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 02, 2011, 23:46:18
Just like pigeons in the park.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on December 03, 2011, 05:22:41
Ah, you're all just jealous because we were smart enough to see these MES shenanigans coming and ran like hell to steer clear.   ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on December 03, 2011, 10:35:25
Just to get swallowed up by the Air Ops albatross and scattered like dust in the wind.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on December 03, 2011, 11:08:18
MES is coming to a trade near you, it's not just an Army Sigs issue.  It is being implemented forces wide, we were just the test bed.  According to our MES managers it will soon spread like the plague, in fact there was just a CANFORGEN released talking about job based occupational codes and the death of the QL.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: merk102 on January 24, 2012, 17:38:24
So I'm supposed to report to CFSCE on the 6th. I've re-enrolled on the 17th of Jan. Seeing as I don't have any kit when it was turned in when I VR'd (Stupidest mistake of my LIFE  :facepalm: ) I called the school and spoke with the Tp WO. Couldn't find me in the system. Surprise surprise. He said that there was a possibility of me being loaded in DP1.0, 1.1, 2.0 or DL. It would be great if you guys have links to posts that provide a general overview of what I should expect to do on these courses. I was originally Sig Op and heard that a lot has changed over the past 3 years since I left.

Any input would be great. I know a lot of people aren't fond of the ACISS amalgamation but I'm excited to see how this has changed and if any improvements to the general day to day operations have resulted due to it.

On a side note, I was re-enrolled as Pte (b). Out of curiosity, where does that figure in the Pay Scale they provide on the forces.ca? Pte 1,2,3?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on January 24, 2012, 20:24:50

32 Pages on the amalgamation here, good start:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,77029.0.html

In the C&E Forum, lot's of topics.

If you have access to the DIN, here:

http://aws.kingston.mil.ca/Projects/ACISS/Communication/ACISS%20Structure%20Overview1/Home.aspx

As far as the Training, unless you were credited any QL Training, expect to do your DP1.0 (common to all) and be posted to one of the Sig Sqn's or JSR for OJT. Following that, unless you go to one of the sub-occ's, you won't likely have a 1.1, as there isn't one for ACISS core. Following that, DP2.0, also common, and reminiscent of QL5. The DL portions is prior to DP2.

So basically, wait and see.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Robert0288 on January 25, 2012, 10:40:43
On a side note, I was re-enrolled as Pte (b). Out of curiosity, where does that figure in the Pay Scale they provide on the forces.ca? Pte 1,2,3?

Pte r,b,t is independent of the pay scale which works through time in.  Not 100% sure but you should be credited your previous service time toward your pay level.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on January 25, 2012, 10:43:26
Not 100% sure but you should be credited your previous service time toward your pay level.

Not always and not always commensurate with the actual previous time.  I lost about a year's previous service when I got back in.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on February 02, 2012, 22:39:14
So it appears not much else has come out on this issue other than... Your now a ACISS-whatever...

Except, I was told by the career manager himself that he has the power to post us in any ACISS position. So, even though I'm an IST, they COULD, per needs of the army etc... Post me into a ACISS CORE position like a CP Operator or HCLOS Det member etc... Interesting. He said obviously the idea of the entire trade amalgamation was to streamline everyone after a certain point, but that they planned to be able to plug & play us as needed.

How do we like them apples?

In any case. It's all said and done with! Only other change is that all the -IST types in my Sqn are now in 1 Troop, our IT troop.

Anyone else notice any changes? Any other final news floated around about it all?

 :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 02, 2012, 23:30:46
So it appears not much else has come out on this issue other than... Your now a ACISS-whatever...

Except, I was told by the career manager himself that he has the power to post us in any ACISS position. So, even though I'm an IST, they COULD, per needs of the army etc... Post me into a ACISS CORE position like a CP Operator or HCLOS Det member etc... Interesting. He said obviously the idea of the entire trade amalgamation was to streamline everyone after a certain point, but that they planned to be able to plug & play us as needed.

How do we like them apples?

In any case. It's all said and done with! Only other change is that all the -IST types in my Sqn are now in 1 Troop, our IT troop.

Anyone else notice any changes? Any other final news floated around about it all?

 :2c:

The Manglers are people.  People are fallible.  Therefore the Manglers are fallible.  Don't believe half of what those folks tell you as they know as much about MES as the marketing department for New Coke knew about brand loyalty.  While there is flexibility built into the system, it is supposed to be at the DP1 and 1.1 levels.  If you leave IST to fill an ACISS hole it is paramount to an OT as once you are successfully boarded and selected for the DP2.1 level your MOSID changes.  They have to backfill your empty billet and then you may not be able to go back if another empty position that fits your career profile isn't available.  This does not mean you won't be available for TEMPORARY employment outside your sub-occ should the need arise.  The brief on ACISS says it gives "Commanders mission tailoring ability", it says nothing about Manglers playing bored General with a sand table.  This doesn't mean it won't happen, it just means your particular Mangler is rolling his PERs and smoking them.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jmlane on February 03, 2012, 12:16:39
Extremely eloquent response, Swingline1984. :-)

Perhaps this is slightly off-topic here however it is related to the ACISS amalgamation: is it reasonable to assume you will have a choice of your DP2 training and specialization within the ACISS trade? Can you be "held back" at the core level until an opening for your choice of DP2 course/posting is available? Ultimately, e.g., how possible is that an ACISS with interest specifically in IST gets stuck with CST or LST?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 03, 2012, 12:26:40
Extremely eloquent response, Swingline1984. :-)

Perhaps this is slightly off-topic here however it is related to the ACISS amalgamation: is it reasonable to assume you will have a choice of your DP2 training and specialization within the ACISS trade? Can you be "held back" at the core level until an opening for your choice of DP2 course/posting is available? Ultimately, e.g., how possible is that an ACISS with interest specifically in IST gets stuck with CST or LST?

I don't see any likelyhood of being "stuck" with CST or LST. I can foresee someone being with an interest in sub-trades being "stuck" in the Core trade.

As far as choice, you'll identify your interest in a sub-trade, should you wish, but it won't be automatic that you get into it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jmlane on February 03, 2012, 12:42:46
I don't see any likelyhood of being "stuck" with CST or LST. I can foresee someone being with an interest in sub-trades being "stuck" in the Core trade.
Thanks Beadwindow 7. That is somewhat better in my mind than the alternative. Perhaps someone with personal experience or whom is better informed will correct me on my assumption. ;)

As far as choice, you'll identify your interest in a sub-trade, should you wish, but it won't be automatic that you get into it.
Sure, as per everything else in the CF. My question was in response to Sig Joeschmo's following allusion:
[...]
Except, I was told by the career manager himself that he has the power to post us in any ACISS position. So, even though I'm an IST, they COULD, per needs of the army etc... Post me into a ACISS CORE position like a CP Operator or HCLOS Det member etc...
[...]
Just a minor concern that any ACISS could be trained/posted in a sub-MOC that they have little to no interest in, due to "operational requirements" at the time.

Thanks for entertaining my questions.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 03, 2012, 14:44:09
Just a minor concern that any ACISS could be trained/posted in a sub-MOC that they have little to no interest in, due to "operational requirements" at the time.

It can go one way, and not the other. In all the Management training I've received for the amalgamation, the MES Manager has been quite clear in that unless you're trained in one of the sub-occ's, you should not be employed in one of the positions.

The crux here is, as everyone to the DP 2 level is considered ACISS Core, even if you receive a specific DP2.1 and fall into that sub-occ stream, you have still been qualified to that core level DP 2, and can therefore be employed as such.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: jmlane on February 03, 2012, 15:04:48
Ah, that makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 03, 2012, 22:13:46
The crux here is, as everyone to the DP 2 level is considered ACISS Core, even if you receive a specific DP2.1 and fall into that sub-occ stream, you have still been qualified to that core level DP 2, and can therefore be employed as such.

Yup...definitely has all the hallmarks of a Sigs driven initiative.  The equivalent of trying to fill a 10L bucket with 20L of water and then blaming the bucket when it overflows.  What was Einstein's definition of insanity again?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bart905 on February 16, 2012, 23:56:06
I'm thinking of choosing Army Communication & Information System Specialist as my 3rd option . I was wondering if you guys get any infantry action once deployed ? Because it caught my attention after BMQ you attend SQ .
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 17, 2012, 00:01:04
As an ACISS DP1.0 (Very Basic Trade Trained) your first posting according to the MES Heads is a HQ and Sigs Sqn. So if you want infantry action.....Join the Infantry.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Bart905 on February 17, 2012, 00:07:22
Its not that I want infantry action its the fact on the site it says fight as infantry if required. That why I asked and I'm Applied for Infantry , combat engineer and ACISS . I'm interested in all fields. I have some experience to set up servers and what not just wanted to ask you guys that are already enrolled 
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 17, 2012, 00:12:24
If you're lucky and switched on you could end up as an Infantry Coy Sig. Keep in mind your job is to provide communications, so if that entails rucking up you do it, but most of our work is back from the pointy end types.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 17, 2012, 00:13:13
We all fight the enemy when required. Don't believe everything the trade site tells you. Most of the info does get sugar coated to sex it up. HQ and Sigs used to have a D & S Pl (Defence and Security) that was manned by infanteers. Presently they don't, ACISS are employed at most units and tasks vary.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 17, 2012, 00:18:47
Still waiting for the Eryx missile the recruiting video promised I'd get to fire.  ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 17, 2012, 00:41:34
Well the dancing girls will never show up to the CP, They found more exciting things to do with the Techs and Linemen.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Pte Cherry on February 17, 2012, 06:55:36
If you are just getting in now I don't think you will have enough time go through the training system and work up and deployment before we pull out of the sandbox. There is always next time I guess but we don't really know when/where that will be so don't hold your breath.
The dancing girls only ever made it as far as KAF before, now its to Camp Cupcake.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 17, 2012, 11:44:59
They found more exciting things to do with the Techs and Linemen.  >:D

Dungeons and Dragons tournaments and headbutting wall contests respectively?  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 17, 2012, 12:16:06
Hey, I've seen those things before...in a CP. And the last time I looked the rest of the Branch concentrated on drinking the coffee, not making it.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 17, 2012, 18:27:32
When is your kevlar spoon arriving in Edmonton?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 18, 2012, 11:47:56
So sooner than the promises of the core ACISS guys getting spec then.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 18, 2012, 12:55:11
I don't care if we get it, I just hope they take yours away. But then I like that kind of spiteful humor ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 18, 2012, 17:18:29
Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on February 18, 2012, 17:45:18
I'm thinking of choosing Army Communication & Information System Specialist as my 3rd option . I was wondering if you guys get any infantry action once deployed ? Because it caught my attention after BMQ you attend SQ .

Everyone in the Army and some Air Force and Navy types in certain trades(Medics, etc) take BMQ-Land(formally known as SQ)

As for Signallers in Infantry units,  I have a lot of experience with that, as all my time has been with the Infantry, 0 time in a Sigs unit.  Think up any questions you have and I'll do my best to sort you out.  But like others said,  your main job is still to provide comms, but you can still get out an go out with the Infantry.  Also with the way the trade(ACISS) is set up now,  Sigs will no longer be posted straight to a Combat Arms unit like they did with the old Sig Op, LCIS and Line trades.  All newly trained pers will do time in HQ&Sigs before going to another unit *edit* according to "The Plan" still possibility of going straight to a Combat Arms unit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 18, 2012, 18:14:03
For Sigs will no longer be posted straight to a Combat Arms unit like they did with the old Sig Op, LCIS and Line trades.  All newly trained pers will do time in HQ&Sigs before going to another unit.

Sure, according to the MES managers. Tell that to the FIVE DP1's I have at a first line Sigs Tp. HQ and Sigs doesn't want to give up experience, so I get 5 guys who don't even know how to set up cam net, much less troubleshoot an LDN.

Sure, for the most part they're eager to learn, but first line isn't the place for it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on February 18, 2012, 19:29:16

Sure, for the most part they're eager to learn, but first line isn't the place for it.

And second line is ?


I am going to earn a right justified bubble for "leading change" and suggest that a new Pte should stay at CFSCE until they are qualified to actually perform trade tasks.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 18, 2012, 19:38:37
And second line is ?

It shouldn't be either, but there's more sigs resources and personnel available for OJT.


Quote
I am going to earn a right justified bubble for "leading change" and suggest that a new Pte should stay at CFSCE until they are qualified to actually perform trade tasks.

Makes too much sense. Plus it seems the school has spent so much effort pushing off responsibility I don't think they'll ever take it back.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 18, 2012, 20:11:41
Don't worry.  The 8 billion hours of DL will solve all our problems.  It's supposed to be available end March (along with the results of the pay review).
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on February 18, 2012, 20:14:07
Don't worry.  The 8 billion hours of DL will solve all our problems.  It's supposed to be available end March (along with the results of the pay review).

That was meant as :sarcasm: by the way.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 18, 2012, 20:53:07
I think an overhaul of CFSCE is what was needed vice the trades being F***ED up. All this has done is to demonstrate how ineffective the school is at training. How many courses have we all been on that had filler that wasn't required? The first Athena (210) maint courses were a perfect example. 1/2 a day taking it apart and the following 1/2 day putting it back together. Otherwise the course could be taught localy to the Units benefit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on February 19, 2012, 18:06:47
Everyone in the Army and some Air Force and Navy types in certain trades(Medics, etc) take BMQ-Land(formally known as SQ)

As for Signallers in Infantry units,  I have a lot of experience with that, as all my time has been with the Infantry, 0 time in a Sigs unit.  Think up any questions you have and I'll do my best to sort you out.  But like others said,  your main job is still to provide comms, but you can still get out an go out with the Infantry.  Also with the way the trade(ACISS) is set up now,  Sigs will no longer be posted straight to a Combat Arms unit like they did with the old Sig Op, LCIS and Line trades.  All newly trained pers will do time in HQ&Sigs before going to another unit *edit* according to "The Plan" still possibility of going straight to a Combat Arms unit.

Wish that were true, however, on Friday I was at the Grad Parade for 0019 (F) and 0020.  At least two are going to Infantry Units (Shilo and Pet) according to the program.  The bulk are going to HQ & Sigs or CFJSR.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Zedd on February 21, 2012, 21:39:37
Is it hard getting into the ACISS trade?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 21, 2012, 23:34:41
No I don't think so, it will be hard to get out of ACISS if you find you don't like it.  >:D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Zedd on February 21, 2012, 23:59:56
No I don't think so, it will be hard to get out of ACISS if you find you don't like it.  >:D

Where you an ACISS when you first joined the Canadian Forces?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 22, 2012, 00:08:54
The ACISS trade was only stood up on 1 Oct 11. I've been a Rad Tech from 1993-1995, LCIS 1995-2011, and ACISS since 1 Oct 11. But the old Rad Op trade was notorious for come on in, if you don't like it you can remuster to something else..... until you tried. The Sig Ops were the same, so I see situation no change due to low numbers within the new trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Zedd on February 22, 2012, 00:22:29
The ACISS trade was only stood up on 1 Oct 11. I've been a Rad Tech from 1993-1995, LCIS 1995-2011, and ACISS since 1 Oct 11. But the old Rad Op trade was notorious for come on in, if you don't like it you can remuster to something else..... until you tried. The Sig Ops were the same, so I see situation no change due to low numbers within the new trade.

Thanks for the info! I writing my CFAT on Feb 28th for the ACISS and Combat Engineer!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 22, 2012, 00:45:29
Good luck.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Zedd on February 22, 2012, 23:42:17
Good luck.

Do you need a really high score in the CFAT to qualify as a ACISS?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on February 23, 2012, 00:10:09
I have no clue as I wrote my CFAT back in 1990. The CFRC will be able to tell you what you qualify for based upon your results. You might be surprised by what you are able to apply for.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on February 28, 2012, 10:06:35
Do you need a really high score in the CFAT to qualify as a ACISS?

You USED to need a high score, it used to be higher for Sig Op than even LCIS and they said that was a mistake... Surprise!!! But now it's been re-adjusted to reflect the requirements properly. I doubt it's harder to get into ACISS than it is to be a Steward or Cook (lol)... Kidding aside, they said it's been brought to a more 'realistic' level. They being MESS managers and Career Managers throughout the briefings the last 2-3 years. If you qualify for Infantry, you'll qualify for us.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on February 28, 2012, 22:57:10
it used to be higher for Sig Op than even LCIS and they said that was a mistake... Surprise!!!

let me be the first to call BULLSH** on that one

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on February 29, 2012, 11:51:25
let me be the first to call BULLSH** on that one

Nope, completely true.
Title: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 01, 2012, 20:56:26
What do you guys love about being an Army Communication and Information System Specialist?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Zedd on March 01, 2012, 21:04:21
I wrote my CFAT and qualify as an ACISS and the other 2 trades I applied for. Actually the Military counselor told me I am very qualified.

Interview on March 15 for ACISS!
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Occam on March 01, 2012, 21:23:55
This ought to be good....

 :pop:
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 01, 2012, 21:36:39
This ought to be good....

 :pop:

Helloo!  :salute:
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: ringo598 on March 01, 2012, 22:36:23
uhhh.  Hmmm.  As an ACISS...the part I like is...
Well darn, I don't have much, radio's are fun I guess?  Putting masts up and then taking them down...and then putting them up...and taking them down...good PT at least!  The worst part is when I got told I'm not allowed to use "interrogative" over the net :(
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Robert0288 on March 01, 2012, 22:50:58
Not ACISS, but I hear the hours are good... ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: PuckChaser on March 02, 2012, 00:16:57
Loved being a SigOp, jury is still out on ACISS...
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: 211RadOp on March 02, 2012, 07:37:28
Same job, new name.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 02, 2012, 09:49:28
The worst part is when I got told I'm not allowed to use "interrogative" over the net :(

Why? because it sounds cool to talk like an American from Generation Kill on the nets?

Thing I used to love about being a Sig Op was how widespread the trade was, covering such a huge training spectrum. Overseas, i could be troubleshooting the IP scheme on a tactical satellite link one morning, and that evening be out on a 10k dismounted patrol. With the new trade, I'll probably do the same ****, I just won't be "qualified" by the MES to do half of it.

Another aspect is gaining true expertise on a technical system. And I just don't mean programming it really fast, but operating it to it's max potential, and being the expert on it.

As well as being the hub of information. When working in a command post, everything flows and ebbs through you. If you pay the proper attention, you have a grasp of everything that's going on over your waves, loosely connected to everything. To the guys on the ground, you're that voice through the box that either makes their lives suck, or helps them out.

Things that suck. CFSCE and modernization packages.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: PuckChaser on March 02, 2012, 10:17:33
As well as being the hub of information. When working in a command post, everything flows and ebbs through you. If you pay the proper attention, you have a grasp of everything that's going on over your waves, loosely connected to everything. To the guys on the ground, you're that voice through the box that either makes their lives suck, or helps them out.

Hit the nail on the head here. You're the go-to guy for the commander to link to his troops. Not as far down as we used to be now that there are more Inf Platoon Sigs, but still awesome to basically know everything thats going on outside.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 02, 2012, 22:41:00
Why? because it sounds cool to talk like an American from Generation Kill on the nets?

Thing I used to love about being a Sig Op was how widespread the trade was, covering such a huge training spectrum. Overseas, i could be troubleshooting the IP scheme on a tactical satellite link one morning, and that evening be out on a 10k dismounted patrol. With the new trade, I'll probably do the same ****, I just won't be "qualified" by the MES to do half of it.

Another aspect is gaining true expertise on a technical system. And I just don't mean programming it really fast, but operating it to it's max potential, and being the expert on it.

As well as being the hub of information. When working in a command post, everything flows and ebbs through you. If you pay the proper attention, you have a grasp of everything that's going on over your waves, loosely connected to everything. To the guys on the ground, you're that voice through the box that either makes their lives suck, or helps them out.

Things that suck. CFSCE and modernization packages.

Oh wow that's sounds really cool. Btw what do you mean by "I just won't be "qualified" by the MES to do half of it." ?
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Deelo on March 04, 2012, 11:55:06
Sarcasm/irony at their finest.  :facepalm: Being historically able to do a job competently, but being told by management that you aren't able to do do it.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Brasidas on March 04, 2012, 12:13:36
Sarcasm/irony at their finest.  :facepalm: Being historically able to do a job competently, but being told by management that you aren't able to do do it.

"You can't do that"
"Umm, I've been doing it for 4 years"
"Then you should have sent a request up to become an IST during the MES"
"I'm reserve, IS doesn't exist"
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 08, 2012, 20:07:50
Is the 10 week soldier qualification held at the same place where the BMQ took place?
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MikeL on March 08, 2012, 20:11:30
The SQ info is old.  SQ hasn't been 10 weeks in years; was 7 weeks when I did in in 06.  Also, SQ is now called BMQ-Land and it is around a month in length?  And no, it is not in the same location as BMQ, it is in Wainwright, Ab, Meaford, On, Gagetown, Nb, and in ??, Qc. Maybe some other locations as well, I know in the past LFWA Det Shilo, Mb has run it, not sure if they still do.

As for where you will do it, depends on when you finish BMQ and where the next avail course is being run.  You could go to any of the above locations, except Qc if you aren't a francophone.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: 211RadOp on March 09, 2012, 11:00:53
Also, SQ is now called BMQ-Land and it is around a month in length? 

Five weeks now.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 09, 2012, 23:52:27
Hows life as an ACISS? Whats your typical day like? How do you like your posting? How often are you out of the country for training? What do you like the most about the trade? What do you like the least?








Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MikeL on March 10, 2012, 12:02:27
Dude,  Sigs/ACISS are employed in a variety of positions and units, as well ACISS is broken into different sub-occupations.  Each of our days will vary and may be vastly different then the next person.  As for how often you leave the country, depends on the unit you are in and your position.  Typical day varies, from stitting around bored, to being very busy getting ready to go on excercise or deployment.  I haven't left the country much for training, it's all been mostly in Canada either at the base I'm posted at or going to Wainwright and Suffield.  I've installed radios in vehicles, sorted out comms issues in other people's vehicle, live fire and movement, worked in a TOC, worked out of a Bison doing RRB and gone out on patrol with the OMLT humping a radio.  As well as verifying serial numbers on computers, and done some basic IS trouble shooting in the unit lines.  Been with the Infantry since I finished my QL3 Sig Op course, and I've done quite a few different aspects of the trade in my time as a Signaller.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on March 13, 2012, 12:29:25
We were told everyone QL5 and up will have to do a modernization DL package not the DP2 DL which is tied to the residency piece.
Almost a year later and still no word on this DL package which is supposed to be a prerequisite for future career courses. Why do I get the feeling I'm going to get stuck with 8 days' worth of DL on the day before my next course (which, of course will have its own DL package)?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on March 13, 2012, 12:53:13
I received an e-mail from my SSM a few weeks back on this subj.  For me any (6B qual), my DL will be avail in March.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on March 13, 2012, 13:22:32
The DP2 Modernization is on DND Learn,  there was no official email about it, our QL5 guys in the unit only found out about it from buddy who happened to see it there and forwarded that info to us.  Not much to it, just some Tac Rad/TCCS stuff, IS, and a little Line and I think Tech stuff.  Also the test is a soup sandwich with them trying to cram english/french into it and the A B C D blocks weren't properly aligned with the answers.  Take your time with the test and make sure you are picking the right letter for the answer you want.  Some other guys and myself emailed them about that and they are aware of the problem,  not sure if it's been resolved or not yet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on March 13, 2012, 23:07:50
I received an e-mail from my SSM a few weeks back on this subj.  For me any (6B qual), my DL will be avail in March.

This is March, isn't it???
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on March 13, 2012, 23:11:39
Got to love leave.  I loose all track of time   :-[
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on March 13, 2012, 23:29:40
Hmm.. Wasn't something else regarding the trade(s) supposed to be announced in march?

I know a few guys who were promoted or moved up an IPC who are yet to be paid for it.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 14, 2012, 03:12:21
Judging from the somewhat credible info (IE the source) from this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104911.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104911.0.html), the cynic in me wants to say the renouncement is delayed because they're scrambling on how to spin the answer TB gave to us into something other than utter failure of their proposal.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on March 14, 2012, 10:09:09
Judging from the somewhat credible info (IE the source) from this thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104911.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104911.0.html), the cynic in me wants to say the renouncement is delayed because they're scrambling on how to spin the answer TB gave to us into something other than utter failure of their proposal.

"they" asked for spec pay for the entire trade, I am not surprised ( and that's what I assume was mentioned in your linked thread) that the ACISS core is staying at the standard rate.

Still, no official word either way down. Core or sub-ocs.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 14, 2012, 10:52:27
"they" asked for spec pay for the entire trade, I am not surprised ( and that's what I assume was mentioned in your linked thread) that the ACISS core is staying at the standard rate.

Still, no official word either way down. Core or sub-ocs.

Yep, you caught the part I was referring to, but added the core part yourself. The quote was a direct quote (I had the email forwarded to me, its a plausible source of info) that said the new ACISS occupation (not core, not IST, not LST) which reads as all of us aren't getting it, or to be more pessimistic that CSTs will be pay frozen with vested rights at their current rates.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on March 14, 2012, 11:06:55
If we were speculating sub-ocs, then I would assume there to be 4 decisions. ( 1 core, 3 subs) and not just a blanket decision.

Regardless...officially, still nothing in print.



Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Daywalker on March 15, 2012, 01:47:54
I personally can't see them justifying all these other military tech trades getting spec pay, yet the army techs don't....

It's a real pisser for those of us who have alot of previous (pre military) tech education and experience, who went into this trade partially because of spec pay. They knew this was coming when we enrolled and when people like me asked about this ACISS thing, I was told by the recruiters, don't listen to rumors, BLAH BLAH... Why should ATIS still get it yet we don't. Doesn't give me much motivation to stay in this trade...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on March 15, 2012, 08:03:50
Doesn't give me much motivation to stay in this trade...

So leave then.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 15, 2012, 09:40:36
Why should ATIS still get it yet we don't. Doesn't give me much motivation to stay in this trade...

They didn't try to fix what wasn't broken with their trade. Unfortunately, I think there's going to be a lot of people (not just techs, but mostly so) with the same lack of motivation as you. I know I'd be pretty pissed if I was a technician and they came back after all this restructure and took away spec.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on March 15, 2012, 09:54:43
So leave then.

I see the "great" cdn aviator has poked his nose in another thread, gracing us with an  ounce of his one sentence " tough love" . 

I understand Daywalker's frustration.  This entire amalgamation has been a mess from the start.  We have been told to embarrass change, and make it work with not even the Mes managers knowing what that " change" was going to look like.
 
The school is scrambling to find a common ground, and units ( including operational ones ) are Pat platoons for multitudes of untrained Ptes.

Don't get me started on the pay.


Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: aesop081 on March 15, 2012, 10:09:40
 

I understand Daywalker's frustration. 

As do i. If i wasn't happy with my current MOC, i would leave.

No ?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on March 15, 2012, 11:13:20
CDN Aviator is correct - if you are unhappy with the way things are playing out, then do an OT to another trade.

The reason that ATIS and other tech trades are going to keep spec pay is becasue they are keeping POET. ACISS and the CST sub-occ are eliminating POET and going to a modular training model.

Look at it this way, NAV COMMs do similar training and have similar jobs to the IST sub-occ. They tried a couple of times to get spec pay based on their extensive civilian IT training. They failed.

I will be surprised if any part of the ACISS occupation gets it - do you really thing that a core ACISS should get it?

The best bet would be an overhaul of the spec pay system to tie the pay to specific jobs... IMHO.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on March 15, 2012, 11:38:51
This may be a timely occasion to repost an explanation of who gets spec pay and why.  I'm going to put a couple of pertinent points in yellow and bold them.

I think the main reason that the Nav Comms have been unsuccessful at getting spec pay is that while IT is somewhat technical, it's not proving to be something that is draining skilled members from the CF so is not a retention problem.  You can't swing a stick at a job fair without hitting someone with systems administration experience, so is there really any need for Nav Comms to be getting spec pay?  That may hurt a few feelings, but it's the truth.  It's too soon to tell if the IST sub-occ of ACISS will suffer the same fate, but I know where my bet is going...



From http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/specpay_article_e.asp?sidesection=3

Specialist Pay - How Does it Work?

Recently at the Directorate of Pay Policy and Development (DPPD) we have received a lot of questions about Specialist pay, how it works and why it is paid. This article will help to answer some of those questions.

Historical Context- With the integration of the Army, Navy and Air Force into the Canadian Armed Forces in the late 1960s, trades were combined and their numbers drastically reduced. There were, however, numerous pay fields, which meant that members working side by side, in similar environmental conditions, sometimes with the same skill sets, were being paid differently. This caused great morale problems and led to the 1972-73 review and job evaluation process called the Canadian Forces Trade Evaluation Plan (CFTEP). As a result of this review, the CF adopted an “institutional” pay system, meaning that everyone at the same rank, regardless of occupation, generally receives the same rate of pay. This is called the rank-based, team concept. In 1975, the team concept grouped the majority of all trades into one pay field: the Standard Trade Group. Nevertheless, given the market reality that certain trades require highly technical training and are therefore attractive to the private sector, two additional pay fields were added for the purpose of attraction and retention: Specialist 1 and Specialist 2 Trade Groups. Roughly one-quarter of NCM trades fall into the latter two categories.

How are occupations (MOCS) assigned to a pay group?-The CFTEP is a Treasury Board approved methodology similar to that used in the Public Service, that is used to evaluate an occupation’s predominant jobs (the descriptions of these predominant jobs are referred to as PJDs) for the purposes of assignment to a pay group. The CFTEP is a point score system. Nine factors are evaluated: Comprehension and Judgement, Trade Training and Experience, Responsibility sub-divided into resources, services and safety of others, Effort sub-divided into mental and physical effort and Working Conditions again sub-divided into environmental and hazards.

The Technical Stuff- Job evaluations are completed by a board that usually consists of at least three members usually military officers who are trained in classification jobs and job evaluation who review the PJDs for an occupation based on the factors identified above and assign points. The PJDs are provided to the Directorate of Pay, Policy and Development (DPPD) by the occupation’s Branch Advisor and Managing Authority. An occupation’s predominant jobs are those that an experienced Cpl (normally a Cpl IPC 4, that is a Cpl with at least 8 years of military experience from enrolment) or MCpl is expected to complete on a regular basis within the occupation. When all predominant jobs within an occupation are evaluated, an overall occupation score is determined by calculating a weighted average for all corporals employed in the predominant jobs. For example, if only 25% of the members of an occupation performed a job that scored high enough to achieve Specialist Pay, whether or not the whole occupation would receive Specialist Pay would be determined by the resulting mathematical score.

Occupationally Qualified- Until recently, technological limitations in the CF pay system did not allow a means of differentiating between “occupation qualified” IAW occupation specifications and “non-occupation-qualified” members for the purposes of pay. Therefore, if you became a Cpl in an occupation that was assigned to a Specialist Pay Trade Group you were paid Spec pay, whether you were qualified to do the job or not. The administration of Specialist Pay was challenged in the 2003 Chief of Review Services Report on the basis that personnel who were not qualified were in receipt of Specialist pay. Consequently, changes to the CF pay system , and the introduction of the Occupation Structure Implementation Plan (OSIP) in Aug 04, have now afforded us the opportunity to rectify this situation in ensuring that Specialist Pay is administered appropriately. As of 1 Aug 04, if you are not qualified to do the job in accordance with the occupation requirements and specifications provided by your branch’s Managing Authority, then you are not be entitled to receive Specialist Pay,

Burning Questions- Here are some of the burning questions we often receive at DPPD:

“Although we are different occupations, right now I am doing the same job as another Cpl, how come my occupation is in the Standard Pay Group while his gets Spec pay?”

Based on the Treasury Board approved methodology of how we do job evaluations and the whole concept of the weighted average you can see that in the CF we do not pay members based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. In this case, although some tasks may be similar in different occupations, in order to receive Specialist pay, the majority of members of a Spec pay occupation must be doing jobs that score in the Spec pay range in accordance with the CFTEP methodology.

“I know that my job requires more skills than another occupation’s jobs, how come we both get Spec 1 Pay, shouldn’t my occupation get Spec 2 instead?”

Another important point to note is that it doesn’t matter whether an occupation just barely makes the score for Specialist 1 pay or scores almost but not quite high enough to achieve Specialist 2 pay, they both receive Specialist 1 pay. This follows the lines of high school grading in that a 79% is a B, as is a 71%.

“I used to be in the Reg F and my occupation received Spec pay. Now I am in the Res F why don’t I get Spec pay, I still hold the same qualifications?”

There are two sides to the answer to this question. First, as mentioned earlier, the CF does not pay members based on individual qualifications, but on the requirements of the occupation. Although similar to those in the Reg F, Res F occupation requirements are not always exactly the same and therefore may not evaluate at the Specialist Pay Trade Group. Second, in order for an occupation to receive Specialist pay, it must have scored in the Specialist pay range, and, it must be assigned to the Specialist Pay Trade Group by the CDS. In order for this to occur, the Branch Advisor or Managing Authority must have submitted it for evaluation. There are only seven Reserve occupations that have successfully undergone the process and been assigned to a Specialist Pay Trade Group.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on March 15, 2012, 11:41:35
The best bet would be an overhaul of the spec pay system to tie the pay to specific jobs... IMHO.

If you mean as in positional pay (like jump pay..You're in a jump position, you get it, you aren't, you don't) I agree wholeheartedly.

The problem is, it would be such an administrative nightmare, that you won't ever see it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 15, 2012, 12:55:00
If you mean as in positional pay (like jump pay..You're in a jump position, you get it, you aren't, you don't) I agree wholeheartedly.

The problem is, it would be such an administrative nightmare, that you won't ever see it.

And good luck posting people out of spec pay positions. If you thought it was bad posting them out of field units now....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on March 15, 2012, 12:59:32
I just received an email from the Army Foreman.

The pay review for ACISS has not started yet, and no decision has been made with regards to pay group allocation. A decision is not expected  until July 2012
The email that surfaced regarding the Naval occupation review decision mentioned ACISS, but was misleading as the ACISS occupation has TEMPORARILY been assigned the standard pay level until a formal decision has been made.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Daywalker on March 15, 2012, 14:36:23
Well, to those who think that ACISS CST shouldn't have Spec Pay because of the lack of POET now...what about those who already had POET (or a 2 year college electronics tech diploma or better, or those who went through the SEP program) and got sucked into ACISS part way into the training system. I know a few of them...

As for changing to a different trade... I would love to change to ATIS (as would MANY others I know), in fact ATIS was my first choice, but that option isn't available.... and I imagine there are quite alot of LCIS techs out there who are trying to OT...and we all know just how easy that process is!

Don't get me wrong... I am really happy to be in this trade... but once I arrived at Kingston, everything that I was told that was going to happen with me turned out to be BS, and I sat there in K-town for a long time with no answers. Now that I am finally posted elsewhere and working at a good unit, I can go home to my own house and family again, and you see a big difference in me. Now that I am about to "finally" begin some of my actual trade training (DP1.1), I'm looking forward to returning to K-Town for course.

I can tell you though, that most of the LCIS techs who are stuck in "DP1 PAT" at the units are not a happy bunch...some who are even qualified have been there for a year and have not fixed ONE piece of electronics kit. I guess that's what happens when you cram 50+ techs into a shop that was meant for maybe 8.

I can say that those of us (myself included) who are farmed out to other units are MUCH happier because we get to do some actual tech work.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 15, 2012, 15:13:12
As for changing to a different trade... I would love to change to ATIS (as would MANY others I know), in fact ATIS was my first choice, but that option isn't available.... and I imagine there are quite alot of LCIS techs out there who are trying to OT...and we all know just how easy that process is!

The only thing that can stop you from applying for a VOT is not meeting the requirements IAW CFA0 11-12 (48 months service, QL4 qual'd/QL3 qual'd if no QL4 qual in your MOC).  If you aren't QL3 qualified yet and haven't started the course, you can request a MOC Reassignment (CFA0 11-12 again), or the BTAGs call it a VOR.  If you are between 25% and 75% complete QL3, you can request a MOC Reassignment/VOR.  Doesn't mean you will GET it, but if you or anyone is really that unhappy, is it really in the CFs or mb'rs best interest to carry on in the trade??

Even if ACISS is a RED trade, 0.5% of the TES is allowed OT-out.  That is not my opinion either, that is published policy.

Forecast TES for 31 Mar 12 is 2,935.  That makes the OT-outcap 15. 

 :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on March 15, 2012, 21:15:47
Hello everybody

It has been awhile since I last posted.

To say that the new ACISS trade has not gotten off to a good start would be the understatement of the year.

It is easy to cast stones at CFSCE, however these new core and sub occ crses still require shaping and refinement.  And I agree it is hard to do that when some of us at still trying figure out the how ACISS is suppose work seeing it is not working as per the drawing board.

I have since moved from Sig Op / ACISS Training to a Ops job but I can state that at the MCpl/Sgt level the instrs, Crse Suprs and Crse Dirs are doing the best job they can with all the new and constant changes. 

Is ACISS here for good, I think so.  So how to fix it.  Usually change and direction comes from top down.  To make ACISS work I think we are going to have to improve it from the mid-level rank level up i.e. MCpl/Sgt/WO.

Also, as for the concept that the training at CFSCE is broken it is not due to a lack of effort for the majority of per who are posted there.  ACISS was not dreamed up by CFSCE, however CFSCE was asked to train it.  If you look at the names on the TPs from the writing boards for the new courses there are usually two or three names from CFSCE the other are from SMEs from the Field Force, Static units and Ottawa.  So any faults or success with the TPs is a shared responsibility.

CFSCE's slogan is 'The Center of Excellence', this is not true.  The centre of Excellence is the Field Force Brigades. They are the sharpe end.  Yes CFCSE has to instr the courses but the Field Force needs to have more influence and say in how and what training the young troops are getting by CFSCE.  More communication between the school and the real world required.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: C/S 0 on March 15, 2012, 22:14:10
I had a conversation with a influential Warrant Officer  a while back and his ideas ref ACISS were interesting.

Right now we has a trade with a core element and three sub occs (four counting CISTM). 

The idea was still one trade - call it ACISS or what ever - but with no core element but four sub occs - Ops, Techs, Linemen, and IST.

Now these four sub occs would start off with a common crse DP1.  What do all four sub occs should be able to do?  Be able to use the basic field force radios/comms gear (522s/DAGRs/etc), lay basic field wire, understand signal path and be able to troubleshoot and identify a comms problem (enough to tell the tech what is wrong), understand computers and IS Concepts.

Then the troops move to the DP1.1, each sub occ has its own DP1.1 - kinda like a QL3.  Ops learn more advance radios, operating in detachments as members.  Linemen climb, etc.  Techs move to fixing and ISTs to mapping, planning and programming.

Same concept at the DP2.0 level.  Ops learn to be det comdrs.  Linemen learn to be line crew suprs. Techs Help Desk suprs, etc.  IST same concept in their sub occ.

DP2.1 could be OSQs.  For a example I will use the Sig Op /ACISS Core side seeing that's what I am: HCLOS, NCCIS, etc.

So now at the DP 3 level we have a return to common tasks:  Business Plans, CEOIs, Training Plans, etc.

Sub Occs carry on with their own 3B.1.

The DP 4A.0 is the interesting concept.  Right now it his a CIS Tp WO Crse.  I believe that the technical expertise level is at the Sgt rank.  Being a CIS Tp WO could be done by any of the sub occs.  A linemen could be a Tp WO for a HQ and Sigs Tp and a Tech could be the Tp WO in the DP1 Troop in the school, etc.  So DP4 will be a common crse.

DP4A.1 is now a common crse for those that are going to be wisemen.  I would make it a sub occ crse for each sub occ for those identify, career path, or appointment to the TMO, CCO, LCF and whatever the IST guy/girl will be called.

Interested in what others think and other ideas to improve ACISS.

cheers
C/S 0
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 16, 2012, 00:39:45
Maybe you'd be able to answer this better, being from the training establishment: Why would a Cpl IST need to complete both the common DP2.0 and ACISS (Core) 2.1 course before he was allowed to carry on with IST DP2.1? To me that seems like a gross waste of training resources to qualify him DP2 in both ACISS (Core) and IST, and against what I've understood from the training structure from the many presentations.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 16, 2012, 01:25:56
Maybe you'd be able to answer this better, being from the training establishment: Why would a Cpl IST need to complete both the common DP2.0 and ACISS (Core) 2.1 course before he was allowed to carry on with IST DP2.1? To me that seems like a gross waste of training resources to qualify him DP2 in both ACISS (Core) and IST, and against what I've understood from the training structure from the many presentations.

Exactly. The only effective purpose I can see to having linemen, electronics techs, and IT personnel trained to be Sig Op det commanders is to be able to call any of these guys over and say "here's a truck and a couple of guys, go be a company CP for this ex".

Sure, reorganize the trade(s). But particularly for a 5's package, it's a waste to train somebody to do two disparate jobs.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Zedd on March 16, 2012, 22:14:47
Dude,  Sigs/ACISS are employed in a variety of positions and units, as well ACISS is broken into different sub-occupations.  Each of our days will vary and may be vastly different then the next person.  As for how often you leave the country, depends on the unit you are in and your position.  Typical day varies, from stitting around bored, to being very busy getting ready to go on excercise or deployment.  I haven't left the country much for training, it's all been mostly in Canada either at the base I'm posted at or going to Wainwright and Suffield.  I've installed radios in vehicles, sorted out comms issues in other people's vehicle, live fire and movement, worked in a TOC, worked out of a Bison doing RRB and gone out on patrol with the OMLT humping a radio.  As well as verifying serial numbers on computers, and done some basic IS trouble shooting in the unit lines.  Been with the Infantry since I finished my QL3 Sig Op course, and I've done quite a few different aspects of the trade in my time as a Signaller.

Thanks for the input! My interview went really well!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: m6 on March 24, 2012, 18:51:21
I've just been told that the PRes is currently only authorized to train and recruit ACISS with the intent of training them as LST or staying ACISS Core. Has anyone else heard this?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 24, 2012, 21:25:26
I've just been told that the PRes is currently only authorized to train and recruit ACISS with the intent of training them as LST or staying ACISS Core. Has anyone else heard this?

Show me a viable plan for training reserve LST.

We're talking 5 years of courses to get them trade qualified, much of it not in the summer and not easy for the college crowd.

ACISS is going to be effectively sig op-only for the reserves.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: m6 on March 24, 2012, 22:16:00
Show me a viable plan for training reserve LST.

We're talking 5 years of courses to get them trade qualified, much of it not in the summer and not easy for the college crowd.

ACISS is going to be effectively sig op-only for the reserves.

Yes, I understand that. This is simply what was passed on to me.

Edit: There can easily be IST/CST types on the Reserve side via PLAR of the DP1.1
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on March 24, 2012, 22:55:10
Yes, I understand that. This is simply what was passed on to me.

Edit: There can easily be IST/CST types on the Reserve side via PLAR of the DP1.1

In theory. The system isn't going to expect to accommodate that, any more than it has been to accept CT's of ex-regforce LCIS. I'm in a reserve unit that has an LCIS as the SSM, and a tech attempting to CT to my unit was told up the chain that he wasn't allowed to do so without OT'ing to sig op.

Regardless of the letter of what's right, fringe situations are likely to get short shrift.

Suppose they do get a PLAR for DP1.1, and DP 1.1 only. They'll be invited to take DP 2.0 core. Do they then try to get another PLAR for DP 2.1?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: m6 on March 25, 2012, 15:00:32
Trying to PLAR the 2.1 would probably be pointless. My understanding is that if you PLAR the 1.1 you can remain Core but participate in deployments in the sub-occ of the 1.1.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: alucky on March 27, 2012, 01:39:32
Hello! I have an interview coming up for this trade and while I have read up on it/watched the video, I was hoping to find someone who presently works in this field that I could get some feedback from - what your average day is like and how you feel about the job. This trade is entirely different from any career experience that I have previously had.

Any experiences you could share with me would be greatly appreciated. I just want to be as knowledgeable and prepared as I can.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 27, 2012, 06:09:42
Whole topic on the trade here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,77029.msg1128109.html#new (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,77029.msg1128109.html#new). I'm sure it will answer all your questions.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: m6 on March 28, 2012, 18:22:31
I have scoured the forums looking for a relatively detailed description of the ACISS DP1.0 and it's content and haven't found anything of much use. I will be starting this course in May and would like a heads up, I have the basic ATCIS OP course already so I figure that should help, if only a little.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ringo598 on March 28, 2012, 21:16:24
Well..as someone who graduated from that course about a week ago I can probably help...though with the point that the course is changing pretty rapidly and your mileage may vary as some friends of mine are on a course about a month behind and its different already.

-Typing (If you can do 30ish wpm you get exempt)
-Radio Theory
-Crypto and COMSEC
-Electrical Theory (Reallllly basic)
-The MS office suite (PP, Excel, Word, Outlook)
-Basic lines, CAT-5e/field line
-CI's & the 522
-You do some computer tacnet stuff (SAS/Blue on Blue/etc)..this one seems to be all over the place, some courses got in depth with this, others didn't
-Counter IED
-A few random classes here and there such as field antennas that they never come back on and you never get to actually do any hands on in (a shame really :( )
-A couple other radios and systems

Then you go to the field for a month or so, lots of tasty boxed lunches
-Putting the 40ft mast up and down a lot
-Setting up an LSVW comms det
-Setting up the Generator

(You seriously spend almost a month doing the above three)

Then a field EX...(not really an EX, its like a few days and most courses slept in their shacks at night)
You do some IST/CST/LST and some core, most of it introductory and not graded

Any other questions just ask.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: m6 on April 02, 2012, 08:33:29
Thanks for the info, Ringo! Looks like I've done almost everything there previously.  :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ayo23 on April 03, 2012, 14:25:54
I heard a while back that those in ACISS currently are unable to remuster because the trade's in the red and that it'd be easier to just VR and re-apply. Anyone know if that's changed?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on April 03, 2012, 15:35:17
The only thing that can stop you from applying for a VOT is not meeting the requirements IAW CFA0 11-12 (48 months service, QL4 qual'd/QL3 qual'd if no QL4 qual in your MOC).  If you aren't QL3 qualified yet and haven't started the course, you can request a MOC Reassignment (CFA0 11-12 again), or the BTAGs call it a VOR.  If you are between 25% and 75% complete QL3, you can request a MOC Reassignment/VOR.  Doesn't mean you will GET it, but if you or anyone is really that unhappy, is it really in the CFs or mb'rs best interest to carry on in the trade??

Even if ACISS is a RED trade, 0.5% of the TES is allowed OT-out.  That is not my opinion either, that is published policy.

Forecast TES for 31 Mar 12 is 2,935.  That makes the OT-outcap 15. 

 :2c:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ayo23 on April 03, 2012, 16:29:26
Thanks. Not sure how i missed that post.  :-[
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: SigPig84 on April 24, 2012, 00:17:50
Can anyone confirm the next selection date for ACISS, I'm currently
merit listed, and coming in as a skilled applicant as I only got out in 2011.

Thanks
Cpl Burns
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 24, 2012, 00:40:06
You're not in anymore, I wouldn't go around using your rank without Former or Ret'd (which has rules for its use) around it.

Its also the second time you've asked for selection board timings, and obviously no one here has them. So be patient.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PMedMoe on April 24, 2012, 08:17:47
Its also the second time you've asked for selection board timings, and obviously no one here has them. So be patient.

Agreed.  No need to start a new thread.  Mods, might I suggest a merge?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: mmmjon on April 24, 2012, 19:48:31
April 27th.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on April 25, 2012, 11:34:41
So having finally had a bit of time with some of these new ACISS 'trained' personnel...

ACISS 1.0 FNG: "So, I signed up as an LCIS tech..." - 3/4 of the one's we got were 'suppose' to originally be LCIS...
Me: "What did they teach you in CFSCE/what are you qualified on?"
FNG: "I can setup a mast and generator pretty quick and I can run 3 radios..."
Me: "CJ#$(J#&(RSCFSCE@&$*@($ ..... So you don't know anything about computers, electronics or generally how to fix anything but you'd be great in a Rad det?".
FNG: "Well they said I'd learn most of that here at my unit and when I go do my 2.0 course back at CFSCE."
Me: "Do you have a notepad, a big one...?"

 :-\
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on April 25, 2012, 16:32:21
Welcome to failure.....C & E style.  >:(
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on April 25, 2012, 21:41:25
Welcome to failure.....C & E style.  >:(


Speaking of failure, has anyone completed their "Modernization" package on DNDlearn yet?  What a horrible experience that was.  I would have rather completed the TCCCS 103 CBT again than do that over.  It was full of typos, incoherent or incomplete sentences, overlapping text.

I completed the first module and no quiz, completed the second module and then was to do a quiz that turned out to be the course exam. I completed it then went to the 3ed module, and it was a repeat of part of the second module.

It was horrible!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on April 25, 2012, 21:43:57
Yea it is pretty horrible,  I did it in February? As well as some other guys from my unit and most of us emailed Kingston regarding it, got a response saying they know about the problem and will correct it.. apparently that didn't happen if you recently did it and saw the same errors.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 25, 2012, 23:08:36
Wow, I thought SigOps just weren't getting the modernization package yet, guess its just me. Time to send out an email, I've got time to kill in Kabul.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on April 25, 2012, 23:20:48
Wow, I thought SigOps just weren't getting the modernization package yet, guess its just me. Time to send out an email, I've got time to kill in Kabul.

Course enrolment seems piecemeal. I'm the second guy to get it in my unit; it showed up in my inbox on Friday.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on April 26, 2012, 00:44:09
I completed mine yesterday. What a total lump of BS. Sig Op indoc is all it is. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Crossfire on April 26, 2012, 11:21:57
Just Rx'd this email WRT ACISS Modernization Training:


To the Signal Community

1.   As most of you already know, the modernization trg has been released in DND Learn for DP 2.0, 3B.0 and 4A.0. Signals personnel have already begun to receive DND Learn accounts which have caused several e-mails to be sent to the Occupational Managers. Although the time limit to complete the Modernization packages are a member/Unit coordination and set for 12 month from the date of the received e-mail, it is imperative that members/Units work on it's completion ASAP.

2.   This trg is a pre-requisite (see "Exert from the QS") to the next level and members who do not complete the required trg, risk being delayed from their next Occupational Career Trg Event. Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis with substantiations from the COC to the Occupational Managers.  All personnel must complete the Modernization trg that is pertinent to them according to the criteria below (see" Exert from MWO Dulude CFSCE - for members level of required trg") . The leadership and members must be forthcoming in identifying themselves or their members if they have NOT received an e-mail from DND learn for the Modernization trg event they are deficient in.

Exert from the QS
3B.0 prerequisites
The prerequisites for selection to attend the training described in this QS are as follows:
Be qualified DP2 ACISS;
Be PLQ(L) qualified;
Be the minimum rank of MCpl; and
   d.   Have a minimum level II security clearance

4A.0 prerequisites
Personnel must meet the following requirements to be selected for this specialty:
Be qualified DP3B ACISS;
Be the minimum rank of sergeant; and
   c.   Have a minimum level II security clearance



Exert from MWO Dulude CFSCE - for members level of required trg
If you are a Cpl/MCpl not qualified QL5A  - you have to go on your DP2.0 common
If you are a Cpl/MCpl qualified QL5A - you have to do the Mod package DP2.0
*** You also need to do the Mod package if you did the DP2.1 ***
Note:   1. DP 2.0 modernization package is available on DND learn. Members should be receiving or received an email soon, with their login and password.
   2. Upon reception on the login and password, the package will be available for approx 12 months.
   3. 5 days from the unit should be allocated to the member to complete this Mod trg package

If you are a MCpl/Sgt not qualified QL6A - you have to go on your DP3B.0
If you are a MCpl/Sgt qualified QL6A - you have to do the Mod Trg DP3B.0
*** You also need to do the Mod package if you did the DP3B.1 ***
Note:   1. DP 3B.0 modernization package is available on DND learn. Members should be receiving or received an email soon with their login and password.
   2. Upon reception on the login and password, the package will be available for approx 12 months.
   3. 7 days from the unit should be allocated to the member to complete this Mod trg package

If you are a Sgt/WO not qualified QL6AB  - you have to go on your DP4A.0
If you are a Sgt/WO qualified QL6B - you have to do the Mod Trg DP4A.0
Note:   1. DP 4A.0 modernization package is available on DND learn. Members should be receiving or received an email soon with their login and password.
   2. Upon reception on the login and password, the package will be available for approx 12 months.
   3. 7 days from the unit should be allocated to the member to complete this Mod trg package
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on April 26, 2012, 13:26:00
I did the DP4A.0 test cold without looking at the package. Who decided that it would take 7 days of at home study to pass this thing? I would be shocked and amazed to find that any of the units can afford to let people go for this amount of time... but if you can swing it - do it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: RedKarma on May 13, 2012, 05:20:50
When's the next one after April 27th? I'm applying right now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 13, 2012, 06:02:02
If they filled all the positions for the year on April 27th (assuming that it was a correct date), you could be waiting a full year for next year's positions.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Donny on May 13, 2012, 16:59:30
Do they only do one selection for all the positions or do they brake it down and do few selections?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 14, 2012, 00:22:54
Thats going to depend on how many recruits they need and when. If they need 50 ACISS this year, and they have 300 applicants on April 1st, and want to be able to run an ACISS DP1 course in the Fall with those 50 people, you bet they'll fill the spots right now.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on May 31, 2012, 11:41:39
I'm sure everyone's already heard now that we're waiting apparently until at LEAST July for an answer about Spec pay. I'm going to hazard a guess (that's all it is) that we won't hear a peep until Sept-Oct and then it will be something to the tune that it's now just in front of the treasury board as they're active review project and it will be another month or so until a decision is rendered.

By that point, end of the yearish... I'm sure no changes will take effect until the next 'fiscal' year. I expect the decision to be 'no' across the board. I'll be violently shocked if spec pay does happen for any of the sub occ's nevermind the entire trade but if it does and they back-pay it. I'm having a spec pay party at my house in the name of vanity and capitalism, all Sigs invited...  >:D

Anyone else hear of have any higher sources of more firm dates/timings about the review?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on May 31, 2012, 22:39:19
Exert from MWO Dulude CFSCE - for members level of required trg
If you are a Cpl/MCpl not qualified QL5A  - you have to go on your DP2.0 common
If you are a Cpl/MCpl qualified QL5A - you have to do the Mod package DP2.0
*** You also need to do the Mod package if you did the DP2.1 ***
Note:   1. DP 2.0 modernization package is available on DND learn. Members should be receiving or received an email soon, with their login and password.
   2. Upon reception on the login and password, the package will be available for approx 12 months.
   3. 5 days from the unit should be allocated to the member to complete this Mod trg package


I've been offered a total of two days to complete my 2.0 package. Is there a more formal reference to the 5 days figure for the 2.0 package?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on June 01, 2012, 00:51:17
They got rid of the ridiculous figure to complete the mod packages. 2 days sounds more reasonable than 5 or 7. I finished the 3B.0 package in a couple hours, it was more difficult to read through the spelling mistakes and obvious copy/paste than it was to comprehend the material.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LineJumper on June 19, 2012, 15:11:40
I'm curious of the ramifications of not completing DP4A.0 in a timely fashion?  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on June 20, 2012, 09:04:08
Endless email harassment by the MES guys?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on June 21, 2012, 09:46:00
For the modernization package, your chain should support a few days' effort to complete the package (not necessarily consecutive days); according to the MES Manager, failure to complete it within a year is grounds for administrative action.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Rheostatic on June 21, 2012, 09:52:55
I've been offered a total of two days to complete my 2.0 package. Is there a more formal reference to the 5 days figure for the 2.0 package?
It's in the "learning contract" on the ACISS sharepoint:
Quote
   (AKOX) ACISS DP2.0 (M) DL   2 Days
   (AKOY) ACISS DP3.0 (M) DL   3 Days
   (AKOZ) ACISS DP4.0 (M) DL   4 Days
Quote
Recent TP Changes have affected the number of training days associated with each module. Please refer to the learning contract for additional details and changes affecting you.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on June 25, 2012, 23:33:38
Any new information on the ACISS selection dates?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FreeFloat on June 28, 2012, 00:09:14
ACISS 1.0 FNG: "So, I signed up as an LCIS tech..." - 3/4 of the one's we got were 'suppose' to originally be LCIS...
Me: "What did they teach you in CFSCE/what are you qualified on?"
FNG: "I can setup a mast and generator pretty quick and I can run 3 radios..."
Me: "CJ#$(J#&(RSCFSCE@&$*@($ ..... So you don't know anything about computers, electronics or generally how to fix anything but you'd be great in a Rad det?".
FNG: "Well they said I'd learn most of that here at my unit and when I go do my 2.0 course back at CFSCE."
Me: "Do you have a notepad, a big one...?"

Yeppers, I can see that one coming.  I'm currently just at the beginning of my DP 1.0 here at CFSCE, and several times the topic of ACISS Core versus sub-occs has come up.  The most recent conversation ended with the admission that basically what the DP 1.0 turns out is a very, very basic Sig Op with next to no exposure to any of the other sub-occupations.  "You'll get all that once you get posted to the Brigades for OJT," everyone keeps saying.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fizzik on July 03, 2012, 12:29:23
Yeppers, I can see that one coming.  I'm currently just at the beginning of my DP 1.0 here at CFSCE, and several times the topic of ACISS Core versus sub-occs has come up.  The most recent conversation ended with the admission that basically what the DP 1.0 turns out is a very, very basic Sig Op with next to no exposure to any of the other sub-occupations.  "You'll get all that once you get posted to the Brigades for OJT," everyone keeps saying.

That is pretty much 100% correct in the theory behind the newly developed training. You will see the the problems this has created and will continue to create  problems at places such as the Brigades being full of semi-trained no hook privates. It becomes an administration problem among many other imaginative scenarios. From my experience alot of individuals once arriving at Brigade HQ&Sigs are then farmed out to other units in support which is a step in the right direction(more hands-on). Time will allow adjustments and configurations to the trade which will hopefully smooth out the next big recruiting problem. For example the new recruits being recruited as ACISS how is it determined what Sub-Occ stream they will go and their eligibility.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on July 03, 2012, 15:18:35
You will see the the problems this has created and will continue to create  problems at places such as the Brigades being full of semi-trained no hook privates. It becomes an administration problem among many other imaginative scenarios. From my experience a lot of individuals once arriving at Brigade HQ&Sigs are then farmed out to other units in support which is a step in the right direction(more hands-on).

The hell it is. Maybe for the individuals themselves, sure. They'll be exposed to a lot. For the good of the service and units? Not a chance in hell. When you're a tradesman at a first-line unit, you're supposed to be the SME.

When this first originally rolled out, we were told an ACISS DP1 would be able to function out of the school as a basic CP Operator, with exposure to elements of the other specialties so that they would be familiar with the basics, to a point where they could receive OJT.

What I have found is distinctly different

Voice Procedure - atrocious. And I don't mean needs practice, I mean a complete unfamiliarity with proper procedure on nets, from the basics of a NCS initiated Radio Check, to no knowledge of Radio Reports and Returns.

Troubleshooting skills - almost nonexistent. Beyond recognition of brainfarts of "forgot to plug in the coax", the training they seem to have directs them as soon as they see error codes or something doesn't work, instead of using logical problem-solving process to at least isolate the issue, Find a Tech! When the techs ask what's wrong with it, the invariable answer is "It doesn't work". That or blank N/S tags.

Unfamiliarity with Equipment - I'm not talking about the kids showing up not knowing how to program new stuff, or how to set up DAMA with a 117. I'm talking about a kid not knowing how to attach the amp to the Radio. I'm talking about them not being able to setup an LDN to save their lives. I'm talking about them having never seen a Sputnik Antenna element before.

I brought this up during a town hall with the CFSCE Commandant a couple months ago when he came to visit us in the field. Brought up the fact that it's great that you spend 2 weeks at the school teaching them EPLRS and ECM, even though half of them don't do the training because they don't have the Sec Clearance, and nevermind the fact that EPLRS has not nearly been implemented in the field force, and they won't touch ECM. So instead of wasting time, why not focus on more of the basics. Answer I got "We've gotten that feedback. Which is why they'll get more line training".

I don't want to take away from the guys, they work hard, and they are eager to learn. It's not their fault that the School is pushing the Onus of training the basics onto the HQ & Sigs. It's not their fault that the HQ & Sigs are pushing these kids to first-line units. But that's what's happening, and it's bullshit. Virtualization of training + OJT + DL's is NOT the answer as a REPLACEMENT for proper training, but it's the answer we're getting in the trade, and it's going to bite us in the *** very, very hard. Like skin-grafting hard.

Want to decentralize training? Fine. Send out some standards to the Bdes, setup training troops, and run courses there. Unfortunately, Op Tempo and manning being what it is, we can't afford to do that.

What's the answer? My initial answer apparently isn't acceptable (I was NOT a proponent of amalgamation).  So here goes. First off, the DP1 has to be rewritten. We've been told that the army won't allow any days added onto the training. Fine, then the time available has to be managed better, with the main focus being on the BASICS, taught to a sufficient standard.

To catch the stuff that these guys aren't learning, some sort of STANDARD OJT package has to be pushed out, much like the old QL4. And DP1's should NOT be pushed out to First-line units until they have at least completed that package.

Until then, we're going to get a lot of people falling through the cracks, and the trade is seriously going to suffer for it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on July 04, 2012, 09:54:39
Amen.

And stop sending DP1 troops to CFJSR. The absolute worst place to send a Pte.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: FreeFloat on July 04, 2012, 10:03:47
Amen.

And stop sending DP1 troops to CFJSR. The absolute worst place to send a Pte.

Why's that?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 04, 2012, 12:13:48
Why's that?

To get real field experience and exposure to Bde comms right from the get go? JSR built itself a very specialized role in TLAN and MT dets and is only now trying to break out of that mold. Taking a Cpl who spent the first 5 years of his career in a TLAN det and put them into 2 Sigs and they're gonna be treading water trying to catch up.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on July 04, 2012, 12:30:56
To get real field experience and exposure to Bde comms right from the get go? JSR built itself a very specialized role in TLAN and MT dets and is only now trying to break out of that mold. Taking a Cpl who spent the first 5 years of his career in a TLAN det and put them into 2 Sigs and they're gonna be treading water trying to catch up.

I don't think it's so much an issue going from JSR to a Bde Sigs Sqn if they go into the IS Tp or even Extension Dets, the switch from TLAN to using WAN kits is pretty minimal. Networks pretty much a network, especially with the use of the TSL-Heavy's.

I think the biggest issue is taking someone with no network experience and throwing them into a network heavy Det like TLAN. It's a lot of training time and investment right off the hop.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 04, 2012, 12:39:56
I think the biggest issue is taking someone with no network experience and throwing them into a network heavy Det like TLAN. It's a lot of training time and investment right off the hop.

Especially for someone they're going to make into a Core guy.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on July 06, 2012, 10:54:15
I think that there should be no privates at JSR, and soldiers should be DP2.1 qualified Cpls prior to posting there. There is a minimal need for CNR at the unit, they will end up bored and disgruntled.

Privates from the school should ALL go to the 3 Brigades, this will give them the exposure to the Army that they need, and allow them the time (first BE) to decide that they like it or not. Teach them the basics, get them in the field, give them an adventure. Sending them to JSR gives them a skewed sense of what the military is all about... There are only so many spots in A troop....

If they insist on continuing to take them from CFSCE, then the unit really needs to get its act together, maybe even going so far as standing up a training Sqn (imagine that?!). Roaming the halls, I have seen a lot of young privates sitting around doing nothing (staring at smartphones). Aren't they supposed to be training?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on July 06, 2012, 12:12:52
I think that there should be no privates at JSR, and soldiers should be DP2.1 qualified Cpls prior to posting there. There is a minimal need for CNR at the unit, they will end up bored and disgruntled.

I have a feeling that most guys getting in will become bored and disgruntled by the time they hit the 2.1 level, regardless of where they are.

I'll agree that guys shouldn't be hitting JSR right out the gate, but you won't see that happen. Trade's just filling positions right now, even if it's a square peg in a round hole.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Daywalker on July 06, 2012, 21:49:28
I have a feeling that most guys getting in will become bored and disgruntled by the time they hit the 2.1 level, regardless of where they are.

I'll agree that guys shouldn't be hitting JSR right out the gate, but you won't see that happen. Trade's just filling positions right now, even if it's a square peg in a round hole.

As someone who is in the middle of all this ACISS mess, I can tell you that this is happening for alot of people... maybe not intentionally, but it is happening. The idea of farming DP1.0's to different units is good as being stuck at HQ & SIGS with very little (tech-related) OJT is very similar to PAT platoon at CFSCE.... it = suck!

Some of the DP1.0 techs are getting great tech-related OJT, while others... not so much. Myself I am happy where I am at right now as I am getting ALOT of exposure to all the different military vehicles, and I am getting to know the comm suites very well... especially as we are getting ready to begin the phase 2 comm suite upgrades.

I just finished DP1.1 not long ago and instead of being farmed out to another unit again, my current unit asked to keep me here to help out for the phase 2 upgrades. It's nice going to work where you are wanted as opposed to being somewhere where you are just an administrative burden and taking up space.

I am an older guy with alot of pre-military tech experience so my mentality is different... I'm not looking for the adventure, I just want to get on course (DP 2.1 mod 2) without having to wait forever to do a 2.0 common course first.

The one thing I have seen ACISS do right however is see poeple who were originally signed as one signals trade, be able to switch to another sub-occ if they found they didn't like the one they were in. We had one guy fail his DP1.1 CSS tech course, but now he has the chance to try being LST which is the trade he originally wanted.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Fizzik on July 09, 2012, 15:41:41
Now it's just waiting to hear about CST's reinstatement of Spec Pay. It's suppose to be announced this month. Although I can see it getting delayed yet once again. Spec pay for all Sub-Occs would be a neat tactic. I can tell you though all the former LCIS will either not be staying or re-mustering and will definitely be very bitter towards the MESS.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 09, 2012, 15:50:58
all the former LCIS will either not be staying or re-mustering and will definitely be very bitter towards the MESS.

And thats different from now, how?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on July 09, 2012, 16:18:14
This restructure is a poison to all that are forced to drink it. We all know what the proper plan should have been.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on July 09, 2012, 18:08:34
Clean slate!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: max1441 on July 09, 2012, 19:45:32
I'm new on the forum and I'm french as well so excuse my english!

I just sign 4 years for ACISS and after reading this post, I must say that I'm worried about my choice. I didn't know that the trade have been changed or anything about the "amalgamation". So if I understand well, I signed 4 years in a new trade with a bad formation and long wait on pat plt? ...nice :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 09, 2012, 21:52:15
So if I understand well, I signed 4 years in a new trade with a bad formation and long wait on pat plt? ...nice :facepalm:

That's pretty much how we were before the ACISS thing. The wait on PAT was insane regardless.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: RedKarma on July 29, 2012, 22:40:18
I was told today they were looking to recruit roughly 300 ACISS techs this year so looks like there is a better chance of me getting in, thank god! :) crossing my fingers!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 29, 2012, 22:57:00
This years SIP has approx. 335 ACISS for 'external' intake, aka off the street recruiting (largest # of external intakes in the CF IIRC).  Its now end July so unknown how many have been filled.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 29, 2012, 23:12:31
ACISS techs

Its not ACISS Techs. Its ACISS: Army Communications and Information Systems Specialist.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on July 30, 2012, 00:18:55
I was told there are selection dates in both August and November. Can anyone confirm this?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Army Gal on July 31, 2012, 17:45:24
I was wondering if when you get a job offer they tell you which part of aciss you will being doing lineman, tech, sig op... or do you choose after basic and when your on your course??? please help! lol
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on July 31, 2012, 17:49:54
On the job offer it will be for ACISS-Core not for a sub occupation.  AFAIK somewhere along the way at CFSCE or the unit you get to say what you would like,  and eventually going by your skill level,  needs of the unit, etc you will either stay ACISS Core or go into a sub occupation like LST or CST.  Start reading in the Signals/C&E sub forum,  there is a large thread with all kinds of info about ACISS.

*edit
Just noticed your other thread,  you said you got your job offer.  So you should already know the answer to that question.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Army Gal on July 31, 2012, 18:42:32
Thank you!n and yes I should know the answer but I told my friend (whoalso in the mil) and he asked what sub section was in and I didn't think the said any thing about it but I started second guessing if they did or not because I was excited to get the call.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on July 31, 2012, 18:48:48
You only know where you're going if you were recruited into and signed an offer in one of the 3 legacy trades: Line, LCIS, Sigop. If you signed as ACISS, you're in the Core and follow the process Skeletor outlined.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Army Gal on August 02, 2012, 22:23:56
Ok yes I got everything figured out and it is ACISS-core. And they said that it will take a couple years until you/they figure out which sub-occupation you will be branched out on... I really want line-man! :)
Thanks guys
I love how everyone is so informative, military seems like it has a good support group!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Big Red Kaboom on August 09, 2012, 07:31:52
I was told there are selection dates in both August and November. Can anyone confirm this?

I can confirm that.  August 7th and one in November.  Not sure the exact date in November.  I'll ask after my interview today.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on August 09, 2012, 15:33:03
Has anyone heard anything else in regards to the spec pay decision that was supposed to come by end of July?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on August 10, 2012, 01:10:29
Nothing at all, I think the July decision was another MES pipedream. TB will give a decision when they feel like, regardless of the timelines set by another department.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on August 10, 2012, 09:42:11
Nothing at all, I think the July decision was another MES pipedream. TB will give a decision when they feel like, regardless of the timelines set by another department.

Thanks,

Yeah, pipedream is a good way to describe this situation.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: RedKarma on August 15, 2012, 11:37:24
I was wondering if someone could tell me a bit about the ACISS Stovepipes? (IST, LST, CST) I'm trying to get prepared for my interview. I'm looking for Timelines such as how long I'd be in the forces before I got offered my first Stovepipe (and are they called stovepipes? I heard a ACISS Reserve Cpl call them that)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: PuckChaser on August 15, 2012, 12:44:45
I was wondering if someone could tell me a bit about the ACISS Stovepipes? (IST, LST, CST) I'm trying to get prepared for my interview. I'm looking for Timelines such as how long I'd be in the forces before I got offered my first Stovepipe (and are they called stovepipes? I heard a ACISS Reserve Cpl call them that)

Thank you.

If you ask the implementation team, there are no stovepipes. They got rid of them with the legacy trades to make one big stovepipe with 4 smaller stovepipes inside it.  ::)  You're chosen for a subocc based on technical ability, CF need and personal preference once you've completed your DP1 and do some OJT at your unit. Then you go back to CFSCE for 1.1 in your subocc.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: Hermes on August 15, 2012, 12:46:58
the frequency radiation
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: RedKarma on August 15, 2012, 20:21:36
Ok, so what are the differences between LST, CST, and IST? Also, what are the prerequisites needed before being offered a stovepipe?
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: PuckChaser on August 15, 2012, 20:30:40
There's no prereqs. Like computers? IST. Like climbing things and setting up line in buildings/field? LST. Like fixing stuff? CST. All the info you need is in this topic.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: mark-space on August 20, 2012, 23:23:32
Hmmm...
Refractive Region/Refractive Layer exercises...set up the CP and CRTTZ dets, send dits and dahs and Baudot code back and forth from Shilo to Victoria and everywhere in between, just using  knowledge of the D E F1 and F2 layers...and 400 watts of RF power, baby!

Setting up that stinking, steerable log-periodic. A bag-drive from beginning to end, but  was there a more potent symbol of Jimmy expertise?

Fallex.

CFSCE when it used to be fun.

Regular tours/posting to miserable places like the Golan, Cyprus, Sinai, Germany...rumour has it that occasional alcoholic beverages may have been consumed...

...and while we're at it, wet messes on exercise! Made those 2.5 months on Waincon a little easier to bear.

Then again, I may be looking back through rose-tinted R214/211/215 glasses....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on August 21, 2012, 00:34:46
Just finished a career diploma in Computer Programming and I am interested in the ACISS trade (again). Will this diploma help me out in regaining my trade and making my application more competitive within the selection process? Any of you Sigs guys help me with this one?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on August 21, 2012, 00:52:37
It would likely make you a little more competitive as a result of post-secondary education, but I don't think it's going to get you anywhere trade-related.  ACISS-IST are workstation/system/network admins, and won't be using computer programming skills at all.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on August 21, 2012, 01:02:08
Oh. Well, kind of disappointing.. I figured it could of at least helped me within the trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ringo598 on August 21, 2012, 01:49:10
Well, I will chime in on this one, I'm ACISS, I'm working in an IST post even though I don't have my IST 1.1 training, probably because of my post secondary education in software engineering.  I can say that I program, a lot.  Not in the traditional languages, ie C/C++, (The system admins don't like you making your own exe's on their secure network) but a lot of web based stuff, HTML/XML/Java/CSS/PHP.  So it is possible, but I'm one of two here in Kingston doing that so its pretty rare.  The folks here at least are really good with getting you into stuff you want to do within reason, so if you want to join and program its possible.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on August 21, 2012, 09:05:32
Are there opportunities to do web-based programming as ringo598 has mentioned?  Yes, they're few and far between.  Is it a part of the job description?  Not a chance.

I used to work second line on one of the networks, and some of the best one-way conversations I've heard were when it was discovered that the guys out in the field were doing unauthorized "programming".
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ringo598 on August 21, 2012, 13:20:01
Heh, that actually came up on Ex a few months ago in Pet.  I also nearly caused a heart attack for the sir when he overheard me and another guy talking about programming because he thought we had installed an IDE on the network.  Sizzle, Occam is correct though, it might help you a bit because I'd assume you've got your math and problem solving skills sharpened a bit by post secondary, but in the new trade everyone is trained as an operator before a tech and in our basic trades training there wasn't much of that required.  That should help with your aptitude testing and such, so don't discount your extra education. 

That being said, if you are actually interested in the trade itself, once your done and into your first posting its actually pretty good, lots of good geek stuff.  From field antenna's to satellites, and lots of computers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on August 21, 2012, 13:39:13
Those responses make me feel much better about the situation now. Thank you guys, I guess I just have to explain my reasoning to the recruiter and hope for the best.

Thanks again,

Sean
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MeatheadMick on August 26, 2012, 01:50:28

(snip)
CFSCE when it used to be fun.
(snip


CFSCE fun? Good god!

This ACISS thing seems almost identical to the RMS merger. Wonder if it will lead to the same problems? Being Jack of all Trades, (Sig Op, Lineman, LCIS) master of none? Wonder how many of today's muck ups with pay or leave, or other admin related issues would be easier resolved if there were still dedicated admin/fin clerks?

I was a res Sig Op from Jun '05 - Feb '10... just barely skimmed out of the ACISS Merger. Been in the field with some relatively fresh ACISS guys, and being a former jimmy, (still always the guy to get tagged to set up rads when no Sigs are attached) I was interested to see what I dodged. missed out on. How is it going for you guys that signed up for one trade, just to be f**ked nudged over to another one?  >:D

Are you all mostly grand-fathered over to the same stream within ACISS or has anyone really taken a bite and have had to completely switch streams? Seems like there could be some serious growing pains with any trade that has to almagamate.

It would be very interesting to get posted to Kingston now that I'm a meathead lol... I fondly remember my weekends at CFSCE where I'm surprised the MP's weren't called in.  Just remember folks, the grass ain't always greener on the other side :)
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: PuckChaser on August 26, 2012, 09:22:23
It would be very interesting to get posted to Kingston now that I'm a meathead lol... I fondly remember my weekends at CFSCE where I'm surprised the MP's weren't called in.

Friend of mine is a MP here, most of his fun stories are involving CFSCE students in the shacks. He's definitely not bored.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sturm0vik on August 28, 2012, 21:14:37
  Hi, I am starting my BMQ on Oct 1st for ACISS, and I have a few questions about the trade, and about the Sig Op sub occupation. However, I would first like to point out that I have done alot of research on this already, both on this site and on the Army website, and if you tell me to use the search function, Or anything similar, I will ignore you, because I already did that. I just want to make that clear.

So:
For ACISS, how often are you working in the field? I don't mean in combat or on the frontline, I see alot of people asking that, I just mean outside or on excercise doing hands on type stuff.

What is your day to day life like? I've seen this asked before but I wasn't really satisfied with the answer, sorry to sound picky :p

How does getting into the sub occupations work, and is it difficult to get your choice of one?

For Sig Op, what is the trade like? Is it the same or similar to the original trade before ACISS, or is it really changed. To my understanding, sig op is more of a field operator, and works with radios and such closer to the line then the other aspects of the ACISS trade. But I could be completely wrong.

I'm really curious to what the trade is going to be like, and I'm really looking into trying to get into the sig op aspect of it, thanks for any help you can offer guys!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Journeyman on August 28, 2012, 21:27:48
.... if you tell me to use the search function, Or anything similar, I will ignore you...
Use the search function!


Ignore away; it's OK, I'll still sleep nights.   :nod:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sturm0vik on August 28, 2012, 21:28:52
Haha jerk
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on August 28, 2012, 21:30:08
Anything ACISS is really going to depend on your unit and what Bde you're posted to. You could be in the field for 2 months straight a couple times a year, or you could barely ever go to the field. Day to day life is similarly varied in that regard, because we're so broad in scope you can literally move into a building across the street in the same base and have totally different hours/schedule/work load.

Sub occ choices are something that isn't super worked out, but this whole ordeal sounded like a great way to force people to be Core (SigOp). My day to day job hasn't changed other than the work load, as ACISS gutted my section and set positions to the wind as they were reclassed as IST.

You'll get a broad overview of everything on your DP1, and will start learning some of the jobs then. Even after CFSCE, you may end up in a unit where you need lots of extra training as there's no possible way to teach every job an ACISS can encounter in the period of time allotted to produce DP1 soldiers. You'd spend 4 years at CFSCE, and no one wants that.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Not a Sig Op on August 28, 2012, 21:32:04
Sig op make magic box talk!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sturm0vik on August 28, 2012, 22:36:13
OK, so do you have any control of which direction your career goes, as far as field to not field goes? If that's the area you were interested in, would you be able to work towards it?

Also, It was my understanding that 'core' was ACISS, but just an advanced generalization of all the trades, but you mention SigOp is the core?

One more thing, I heard before that the parachutist course was available to Sigs, is that true, or completely wrong?

Thanks for the info man! Much appreciated
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on August 28, 2012, 22:51:51
All trades can go on the Para course,  it just comes down to requirement(do you need the course for the job),  unit,  open slots, etc   You aren't in yet,  don't even worry about B Para.

Yes,  essentially the Sig Op trade is now the ACISS Core.  CST would be LCIS,  LST would be Lineman and IST is a mix of what some Sig Ops and LCIS Techs did.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Ludoc on August 29, 2012, 01:35:21
For ACISS, how often are you working in the field? I don't mean in combat or on the frontline, I see alot of people asking that, I just mean outside or on excercise doing hands on type stuff.
It depends where you are posted. In the last twelve months my unit has been to Wainwright for exercise twice (totaling about a month and a half), spent a moth in the sub-arctic and to Dundurn for a couple weeks. The twelve months prior to that we spent almost two months in Wainwright (again on two separate exercises), over a month in Suffield and about a week in Winnipeg fighting the floods. That is all in addition to the time we spend on base practicing ups and downs/ maintaining kit. So there is the opportunity for a lot of hands on activity in the trade.

However, you could just as easily be posted down the road to an ASG and work 8-4 never deploying to the field. Or you may be posted to JSR whose experience may be totally different.

Quote
What is your day to day life like? I've seen this asked before but I wasn't really satisfied with the answer, sorry to sound picky :p
Once again it depends where you end up. Generally the day will begin with PT and then move into whatever needs to be done around the unit. Usually getting equipment ready for ex, confirming it works and repairing it after returning from ex. Keeping vehicles serviceable takes up a lot of our time as does cleaning everything between exercises.

Additionally there are are always tasking that need to be filled. Personnel need to be loaned out to support courses as drivers, signals experts or enemy force. Not to mention the the time people will spend on course or teaching courses.

Quote
How does getting into the sub occupations work, and is it difficult to get your choice of one?
The unit asks what you want to be, then they place you where they need you. Being switched on and hard working helps but in the end if your unit is full of x sub-oc and short of y sub-oc you are going to end up a y.

Quote
For Sig Op, what is the trade like? Is it the same or similar to the original trade before ACISS, or is it really changed. To my understanding, sig op is more of a field operator, and works with radios and such closer to the line then the other aspects of the ACISS trade. But I could be completely wrong.
Sig Op No longer exists, it has been replaced by ACISS core. Core guys are the radio operators but that isn't to say they are the only ones that do so or the only ones that go to the field. In the last exercise we were on my CP consisted of 11 Sigs including 2 ISTs, 1 LST and 1 CST.  And every one of them pulled radio shifts.

We are a networked army, higher leverl CPs are full of networked computers and going forward that connectivity will be pushed to lower and lower levels. Someone needs to set up all those computers and the servers to feed them. Someone needs to run all the line from the servers to the computers. Someone needs to fix all the radio equipment us ACISS core guys break. So there are still a lot of non-core personnel that deploy with us. Those that are not directly part of our detachments are usually a tactical hop or two behind us in their own shop. Either fixing equipment that can't be repaired on the front line, administering servers to push data forward/providing a field help desk or laying all kinds of line to connect everyone to everyone else.

TL;DR: Every unit is different so it is hard to give you any concrete answers. You could end up any sub trade. All the sub trades go to the field and may end up "close to the line."
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sturm0vik on August 29, 2012, 14:52:24
Alright thanks a load guys, ill let you know if i have any more questions. Looking forward to starting in October!!!!!
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MeatheadMick on August 30, 2012, 22:30:58
I can definitely imagine. My shacks were on the McNaughton side of the base, wedged between the JR's and the MP Det... fun times.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: TSpoon on September 12, 2012, 19:22:11
Are the communications trades in the PRes merged into one like ACISS in the RegF ? (I've been accepted for a job with 700 comm sqn) i.e. would I be doing just comms/radio type work or would I also be doing the same stuff linemen do/ IT and computer work ? I was hoping to be assigned to a combat arms unit after training but I wasn't sure if this was always the case, does anyone know ? Thanks for any info  :salute:

(and I did search around a fair bit but couldn't find any clear answers)
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MikeL on September 12, 2012, 19:48:45
ACISS is for both Reg Force and Reserve Army Signallers.

In the past Sig Ops and Lineman were both open for Reservists,  LCIS Tech at one point was also,  but not for awhile now.  So I would assume you could still be able to do line work in the Reserves.  As for the IST,  you would have to ask around your unit,  I am unsure if there is much call for IST in the Reserves,  and if there was I am not sure what they would do. 


I was hoping to be assigned to a combat arms unit after training but I wasn't sure if this was always the case, does anyone know ?

If you joined a Reserve Signals unit you would stay with that unit.  I don't believe there are any Sig positions within the Reserve Combat Arms units.  You could be able to work with a Combat Arms unit on excercise depending on what is going on and if they request it. 
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: TSpoon on September 12, 2012, 21:09:49
ACISS is for both Reg Force and Reserve Army Signallers.

In the past Sig Ops and Lineman were both open for Reservists,  LCIS Tech at one point was also,  but not for awhile now.  So yes, you would be able to do line work in the Reserves.  As for the IST,  you would have to ask around your unit,  I am unsure if there is much call for IST in the Reserves,  and if there was I am not sure what they would do. 


If you joined a Reserve Signals unit you would stay with that unit.  I don't believe there are any Sig positions within the Reserve Combat Arms units.  You could be able to work with a Combat Arms unit on excercise depending on what is going on and if they request it.

Oh okay I guess I was under the impression that Sig Op was still a stand alone trade in the reserves.Thanks a lot for the info Skeletor !!!
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MikeL on September 12, 2012, 21:38:52
As far as I know,  there would be positions for LST in the Reserve(not sure how long it would take someone to be trained as such though).  When you get into the unit,  ask around and they would be able to give you a solid answer.  I'm sure someone who is a Reserve ACISS will be along here eventually and give you some more information.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: TSpoon on September 12, 2012, 21:47:41
As far as I know,  there would be positions for LST in the Reserve(not sure how long it would take someone to be trained as such though).  When you get into the unit,  ask around and they would be able to give you a solid answer.  I'm sure someone who is a Reserve ACISS will be along here eventually and give you some more information.

Awesome.Thanks again  :salute:
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: MeatheadMick on September 13, 2012, 00:59:51

Ah 700 CS. Was a Sig there for 4 and a half years before going reg MP. Good times, some good people. Have fun, and tell Capt Caron I said Hi.

The Res world is also ACISS however I'm not certain how the trg goes as I got out before the merger. In either case you will still do BMQ/SQ and ACISS core before any venture into other strands. as for the combat arms, you'll be a mbr of a brigade and have the opportunity to provide Sigs support to the Grey abd Simcoe Forresters, the Queen's York Rangers and many of the other units located in the York  Armoury. You will also participate in exes and ranges with the surrounding res sig units in Ontario.  If you have any questions feel free to PM me and I will ask around. I'm still in regular contact with most of the Sr. NCO's and MCpls.
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: TSpoon on September 13, 2012, 16:17:19
Ah 700 CS. Was a Sig there for 4 and a half years before going reg MP. Good times, some good people. Have fun, and tell Capt Caron I said Hi.

The Res world is also ACISS however I'm not certain how the trg goes as I got out before the merger. In either case you will still do BMQ/SQ and ACISS core before any venture into other strands. as for the combat arms, you'll be a mbr of a brigade and have the opportunity to provide Sigs support to the Grey abd Simcoe Forresters, the Queen's York Rangers and many of the other units located in the York  Armoury. You will also participate in exes and ranges with the surrounding res sig units in Ontario.  If you have any questions feel free to PM me and I will ask around. I'm still in regular contact with most of the Sr. NCO's and MCpls.


Thanks a lot for the  info man,if I see the Capt you mentioned I'll be sure to say hi.Cheers
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCIS227 on September 26, 2012, 12:00:48
Still nothing on the Spec Pay front?

I checked out the ACISS sharepoint and it's seen virtually no updates in the past 2 months ...  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on September 26, 2012, 12:05:23
Shocking.........
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on September 26, 2012, 15:16:46
Shocking.........

LOL....I can see October becoming end of March...

As a former LCIS TECH, I hope I made the right choice when I basically rolled the dice with my pay and went IST....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on September 26, 2012, 15:21:49
LOL....I can see October becoming end of March...

As a former LCIS TECH, I hope I made the right choice when I basically rolled the dice with my pay and went IST....

Ya I did the same thing, based on the CM telling me that my current posting was an IST position, turns out it is a CST spot, but I still got it....lol.....OUTCAN.....if it wastn for this posting, I would be beating my chest a lot harder for sure.....

I am not confident that ANYONE in the trade will get Spec now. Not with the budget cuts that are going on....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISindenial on September 30, 2012, 12:15:42
Last I heard the treasury board will release its decision after merit board sits. Of course this is rumor mill sourced.... However it does seem like a fair indicator of an unfavorable ruling if this is true.

Fingers crossed but not holding my breath. Retention will become an issue.... Ha. It already is.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on September 30, 2012, 12:20:34
Last I heard the treasury board will release its decision after merit board sits. Of course this is rumor mill sourced.... However it does seem like a fair indicator of an unfavorable ruling if this is true.

Fingers crossed but not holding my breath. Retention will become an issue.... Ha. It already is.

What would merit boards have to do with Spec Pay?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISindenial on September 30, 2012, 15:14:46
Nothing. Unless you wanted to turn down a promotion because you knew your pay was frozen.... 

And as I said before, it was a rumor I heard
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on September 30, 2012, 15:23:11
Nothing. Unless you wanted to turn down a promotion because you knew your pay was frozen.... 

And as I said before, it was a rumor I heard

Doubtful, but seeing as they announced the IR cuts right after APS, anything is possible I guess. Regardless,they ****ed us.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on October 02, 2012, 10:42:51
Nothing. Unless you wanted to turn down a promotion because you knew your pay was frozen.... 

And as I said before, it was a rumor I heard

Interestingly enough, I got an email at work today stating the decision is coming this December.  :facepalm:

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 02, 2012, 10:48:27
Interestingly enough, I got an email at work today stating the decision is coming this December.  :facepalm:

Was this e-mail that you got at work from someone involved in the process and able to speak authoritatively, or from a local Tarot card reader?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on October 02, 2012, 11:35:19
Was this e-mail that you got at work from someone involved in the process and able to speak authoritatively, or from a local Tarot card reader?

Yes. Although CMs have been tarot readers in the past. Feel free to pm your DWAN details and I will fwd it to you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCIS227 on October 02, 2012, 13:10:07
I received the email as well. All the regular MWO's and above, including the Branch CWO are involved and was distributed to the units last week.


Quote
Voici la réponse que j’ai obtenue de DPPD:

I estimated to be finished those evaluations by mid-December.  We will keep you info.

If anyone wants the email, just PM me and I'll send it to you on DWAN.

I have 2x ACISS-CST Cpls and a 1x ACISS-CST Pte in my shop all looking at OT'ing ATIS Tech. The Cpls are sick of waiting and feel undervalued by the Army since they are doing the exact same job as the other 2x ATIS Tech Cpls in the shop but earning 6000$ less.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on October 02, 2012, 13:18:40
I received the email as well. All the regular MWO's and above, including the Branch CWO are involved and was distributed to the units last week.


If anyone wants the email, just PM me and I'll send it to you on DWAN.

I have 2x ACISS-CST Cpls and a 1x ACISS-CST Pte in my shop all looking at OT'ing ATIS Tech. The Cpls are sick of waiting and feel undervalued by the Army since they are doing the exact same job as the other 2x ATIS Tech Cpls in the shop but earning 6000$ less.

And rightly so. If I was a LCIS Cpl right now, my paperwork would have been in months ago. The fact I am an OT from the infantry and my current posting is what stopped me, even at my current rank.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 02, 2012, 15:07:07
Yes. Although CMs have been tarot readers in the past. Feel free to pm your DWAN details and I will fwd it to you tomorrow.

I'll take your word for it - my point is that saying there's an e-mail going around is pointless unless you give some frame of reference as to its authenticity, and whether it's from someone who actually knows something, as opposed to rumour recycling.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on October 02, 2012, 15:27:44

The Board expects to be finished the evaluations in Mid-dec.

"An answer on specialist pay for the ACISS and sub skill set is expected in Dec 2012."


Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on October 02, 2012, 16:43:34
I'll take your word for it - my point is that saying there's an e-mail going around is pointless unless you give some frame of reference as to its authenticity, and whether it's from someone who actually knows something, as opposed to rumour recycling.

You mean like was posted after I said it came out? I certainly wasn't posting names or what not on an open forum. Like I said, feel free to PM your details.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on October 02, 2012, 19:50:36
You mean like was posted after I said it came out? I certainly wasn't posting names or what not on an open forum. Like I said, feel free to PM your details.

I'm sure positions would have sufficed to provide veracity.  I don't need to see the e-mail, thanks...I was one of the C&E Trades that'll still get Spec pay rate when all the dust settles, and now as a civvie, I don't need to worry about it.  My interest in this is solely to see how long this evolution goes on before someone realizes how bad an idea it was, and decides to undo it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on October 02, 2012, 19:57:33
Decided to update my posting preferences today... only to find out that instead of deleting the SigOp/LCIS/Lineman trades out of the trade search on EMAA after they change all the positions to ACISS, they delete it first. Now in all of Ontario there are only 37 ACISS (all sub occs) Sgt positions. Shouldn't have expected anything better...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: kevincanada on October 05, 2012, 18:53:40
Can someone give me a break down on what is going on with the ACISS?  All I have left is medical and interview,  My original trade choices are closed for the season,  ACISS is wide open, and every time a recruiter is see's my I.T. Diploma they think heyyyyy! with a big grin. 

I understand the Spec pay problem and why you would be upset.  Now I am seeing people are trying to leave the field altogether?  Administrative reasoning for pay freeze's and the likes, is one reason to be upset.   Seeking to completely leave the trade and start fresh in another one?  I can't help but to think more is going on than just money problems.

My main interests are combat and or building roles and related jobs (all closing up fast for the year),  Secondary were the high-tech jobs like ACISS

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Brasidas on October 06, 2012, 01:31:37
...Now I am seeing people are trying to leave the field altogether?  Administrative reasoning for pay freeze's and the likes, is one reason to be upset.   Seeking to completely leave the trade and start fresh in another one?  I can't help but to think more is going on than just money problems.

There have been problems with the sig op trade from well before amalgamation. Amalgamation didn't fix those problems.

Meet sig ops, learn about the trade, get an idea of what you'd be doing. Don't expect to be anything other than the "core" stream of the amalgamated trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: RedKarma on October 23, 2012, 23:45:36
Interview tomorrow! Hope I get in! I asked over the phone how many slots still open and was told approx 130 so still decent chances of getting in I'd say! :D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MMSS on October 23, 2012, 23:56:56
Interview tomorrow! Hope I get in! I asked over the phone how many slots still open and was told approx 130 so still decent chances of getting in I'd say! :D

Good luck! Go over the practice questions and be positive.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Wilder on October 25, 2012, 16:57:35
So Jealous! Best of luck on your interview!  I'm currently waiting on my medical file to come back from where ever they hide those things away. Fingers crossed it doesn't take too long.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on October 27, 2012, 22:58:58
Had an interview tomorrow, should be merit listed this week and then here is to hoping for a selection date within November! Good luck to all others.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Decon on November 05, 2012, 00:55:05
Had an interview tomorrow, should be merit listed this week and then here is to hoping for a selection date within November! Good luck to all others.

When I had my interview on October 16th there were still 129 ACISS positions open. I know this because ATIS is my second choice and the recruiter tried to convince me to choose ACISS as a third. AVS is my primary choice and where my heart is, so I left ACISS off my application. This was because recruiter informed me that had I put ACISS as my third choice I would have likely been hired within days but lose my chance at AVS.

My point is: recruiting detachments in my region seem to be under a lot of pressure to find ACISS recruits.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: GrilledLincoln on November 16, 2012, 00:08:53
There have been problems with the sig op trade from well before amalgamation. Amalgamation didn't fix those problems.

Meet sig ops, learn about the trade, get an idea of what you'd be doing. Don't expect to be anything other than the "core" stream of the amalgamated trade.


In regards to this some of the guys out at 1 HQ&Sigs who are fresh off their DP1 in summer are getting OJT's with the linemen and being nominated for 1.1, whether it happens is another story I guess.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 16, 2012, 07:45:12

In regards to this some of the guys out at 1 HQ&Sigs who are fresh off their DP1 in summer are getting OJT's with the linemen and being nominated for 1.1, whether it happens is another story I guess.

Yup...and there is a 30% failure rate once they get to CFSCE because there is no official measurement tool prior to going on course to determine fear of heights (or fitness to climb).  This leaves the courses running short and is a colossal waste of time and money ensuring that uptake won't meet the level of attrition.  Some are even being forced on 1.1 with absolutely no aptitude or desire and are asking to be removed from training once in Kingston.  The system is already broken...Go MES!!!  ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on November 16, 2012, 10:12:40
Yup...and there is a 30% failure rate once they get to CFSCE because there is no official measurement tool prior to going on course to determine fear of heights (or fitness to climb). 

Yeah, I was wondering how they were going to deal with that issue.  If you joined as a lineman, you knew you were going to be climbing and as such, should not have joined that trade if you can't climb.  Now, with someone arbitrarily saying "Guess what, you're now a LST", what the hell do they do now?  If it were me, you couldn't get me up one of those towers at gunpoint, you're going to have to shoot me.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: reverse_eng on November 17, 2012, 12:30:47
Sort off topic...feel free to PM me as to not derail...but how often are Lineman at 1 Line etc on the road/tour? I know a few guys and they seem to be getting good amounts of TD and some deployments.

Is there a demand civvy side for what Lineman do? Or not so much?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tarlouth on November 17, 2012, 13:24:34
200 days a year approx.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on November 17, 2012, 17:05:41
Sort off topic...feel free to PM me as to not derail...but how often are Lineman at 1 Line etc on the road/tour? I know a few guys and they seem to be getting good amounts of TD and some deployments.


140 days domestically without a waiver from the CO and often more depending on operational requirements.  My personal record was in the neighborhood of 280 days with a mix of domestic and international deployments.

Is there a demand civvy side for what Lineman do? Or not so much?

Depends on where you are seeking employment.  Not so much of a demand as there used to be in Ontario but opportunities exist with most averaging a fair rate of pay.  I can't really speak about other provinces, however, most guys I know that have retired and sought employment in related fields don't have much trouble finding work.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: RedKarma on November 17, 2012, 20:38:00
Hey I just got in! they told me on Nov 15, and I get sworn in on Jan 16, 2013 and leave for BMQ on the 19th of Jan. hope this info helps. Im also an ACISS :)
Title: Re: Army Communication and Information System Specialist
Post by: merk102 on November 26, 2012, 01:23:39
If you ask the implementation team, there are no stovepipes. They got rid of them with the legacy trades to make one big stovepipe with 4 smaller stovepipes inside it.  ::)  You're chosen for a subocc based on technical ability, CF need and personal preference once you've completed your DP1 and do some OJT at your unit. Then you go back to CFSCE for 1.1 in your subocc.

So I have a quick question relating to sub occs. I'm going on my DP2.0 and classified as ACISS core. I'm looking to go the CST or IST route. where the hell do I go from here to get where i want to be? Haven't done DP1.1 as I was granted my QL3 that I did x years ago. Any clarification on this would be great on how to proceed.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: merk102 on November 26, 2012, 02:25:25
So I have a quick question relating to sub occs. I'm going on my DP2.0 and classified as ACISS core. I'm looking to go the CST or IST route. where the hell do I go from here to get where i want to be? Haven't done DP1.1 as I was granted my QL3 that I did x years ago. Any clarification on this would be great on how to proceed.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on November 26, 2012, 10:56:00
You need to talk to your Chief Comm Op/Tp WO and state where you want to go as soon as you can. They can get the ball rolling with careers and find out the process, as its been changed or rumoured to have changed half a dozen times. I would recommend a well written memo that states why you want to be CST or IST and what personal skillsets you think would make you a good fit in one of those trades.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Walker_ACISS on November 28, 2012, 00:29:48
I just accepted my job offer for ACISS; my BMQ starts on the 28 of January 2013.  Any other 'forum viewers' heading to St. Jean for that date?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Sizzle on November 28, 2012, 11:20:19
Got my offer on October 29th, Swear in on December 19th and I leave for BMQ January 5th for the course on the 7th.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Radop on December 02, 2012, 23:58:55
A lot of the complaints about the amalgamation in these threads are simply BS.  Quit posting half truths and start stating what is true or state that it is your opinion.

One of my favorite quotes today is one from Colin Powell.  This is not a word for word quote but it goes something like this:

"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even more!"

One person stated that the LST trade was having 30% failures.  The Linemen instructors use to brag about failing half their course.  That would be 50%!  Great, we increased our training retention by 20%.

No one has talked about the fact that we may have training recognized through a college soon.  We could have our apprentice, journeyman and red seals all recognized outside of the military as well.

So now I challenge you to look at what the positives are for this "change".  Tell us what you would do differently!  Lots of people ***** and never come up with an alternative.  People researched this, briefed the country including most of you on this thread and implemented it.  Most of the briefings I attended, almost no one stood up and complained about it, asked questions or said boo.  Now that it is done, you complain.

Those in the LCIS Trade that had their pay frozen, I certainly hope that the spec pay issue is resolved sooner rather than later.  I know that when I did my CISTM course, it was a hot topic as that is when the announcement came out on the freeze.  This trade has always made the impossible work, kept it working and passed on to others how to make it work. 

ACISS may not work but it will not be because of me.  I want it to succeed and I want our people to be doing relevant work with adequate compensation for the knowledge and expertise they need to acquire that expertise.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: NRobichaud on December 22, 2012, 07:01:24
Just wondering what to expect after BMQ, do I go directly to BMQ-L, and if so what does that involve (what types of weapons, is there any vehicle training), and I believe afterward I head to CFSCE? what does that consist of?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: dangerboy on December 22, 2012, 08:26:57
I will start of by saying I am not ACISS, but I see a bunch of stuff to do with training.  Most likely you will have some kind of waiting period before you go on your BMQ Land.  During that time frame you will be put in a PAT (personnel awaiting training) Pl.  As Kingston can't handle all the troops you might get sent to another base.  In Wainwright they have a PAT Pl which has a number of ACISS pers.  Part of the deal is the training centre in Wainwright will get you on your driver wheel course and BMQ Land prior to you reporting for your ACISS course.

For what weapons you learn on BMQ Land, you cover C9, C6, M72 SRAAW(L) and grenades.  Depending on your staff you might do a refresher on C7 also.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on December 22, 2012, 10:37:41
In addition to dangerboy's reply.

For driver wheel you would be getting qualified on the LSVW.  I know in the past some Sig Ops did their QL3 course before doing BMQ-Land; they would end up doing it after arriving at the unit.  Not sure if that still happens or not.  I believe some ACISS pers that are waiting their DP1 have done some OJT at a HQ&Sigs Sqn.

As for what happens at CFSCE are you referring to their PAT Platoon or being on course(DP1)?

For info on ACISS check out the following threads on the trade
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,104818.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,77029.900.html
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: NRobichaud on December 22, 2012, 13:35:12


As for what happens at CFSCE are you referring to their PAT Platoon or being on course(DP1)?

 
Either one, I don't know if I will be on PAT at CFSCE or elsewhere, or at all, but I guess I am more curious as to what the ACISS course at CFSCE consists of, i know its a lot of in class, Im more curious about the hands on training and PT, also if anyone can offer me some insight on food, at CFLRS, CFSCE or anywhere, my BMQ date is 4 weeks away and I'm super excited to get going, so I''m just trying to soak in as much knowledge as I can about my training and trade! Thanks for the info so far, you guys have given me the most direct andhelpful answers yet.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: MikeL on December 22, 2012, 13:59:39
Food - you will be fed..  food is alright at CFLRS and Kingston.

PT at CFSCE - on Sig Op QL3 we did PT 5 days a week(Monday-Friday),  running,  spin class, circuits, sports.  I would expect it do be the

For classes,  expect a mixture of powerpoint,  and hands on/practical.  I would assume there is still a field portion of the course as well.  I don't really have any detailed info as I went through the Signal Operator courses(QL3/5) not ACISS.  Read the two threads I posted earlier on ACISS,  lots of info in there.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on January 09, 2013, 10:04:18
...and December comes and goes......*shakes head*......At least the DWAN ACISS site is nicely updated........ :brickwall:

If only there was a branch in the CF that could maintaing a website.  LOL.....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on January 09, 2013, 10:33:34
A lot of the complaints about the amalgamation in these threads are simply BS.  Quit posting half truths and start stating what is true or state that it is your opinion.

One of my favorite quotes today is one from Colin Powell.  This is not a word for word quote but it goes something like this:

"If you don't like change, you're going to like irrelevance even more!"

One person stated that the LST trade was having 30% failures.  The Linemen instructors use to brag about failing half their course.  That would be 50%!  Great, we increased our training retention by 20%.

No one has talked about the fact that we may have training recognized through a college soon.  We could have our apprentice, journeyman and red seals all recognized outside of the military as well.

So now I challenge you to look at what the positives are for this "change".  Tell us what you would do differently!  Lots of people ***** and never come up with an alternative.  People researched this, briefed the country including most of you on this thread and implemented it.  Most of the briefings I attended, almost no one stood up and complained about it, asked questions or said boo.  Now that it is done, you complain.

Those in the LCIS Trade that had their pay frozen, I certainly hope that the spec pay issue is resolved sooner rather than later.  I know that when I did my CISTM course, it was a hot topic as that is when the announcement came out on the freeze.  This trade has always made the impossible work, kept it working and passed on to others how to make it work. 

ACISS may not work but it will not be because of me.  I want it to succeed and I want our people to be doing relevant work with adequate compensation for the knowledge and expertise they need to acquire that expertise.

GDay WO

I don't know about the rest of them, but my grumbles about the amalgamation is that it was all sunshine and rainbows at the briefings with very little actual content to discuss. It seemed like a lot of fluff cheer leading for a system that hadn't even been built yet.

What were we supposed to do, stand up in these meetings, of little substance, and say "These sure are pretty power points and it all looks good but us NCMs have deep seated feelings of dread that this is going to get ballsed up badly" I'm sure they would have been "Oh, well Pte in that case we'll just call the whole thing off. Take an early day Gents!". No actually I think that would have gone over like a fart in church and for good reason.

Saying after the fact that we should have complained in the meetings is a little obtuse. There was nothing to complain about and any objections we raised would have been irrelevant, ACISS was already coming at that point and nothing short of the CLS or higher could have stopped it.

So, now that I'm trying to work with the tools given to me, I'm not happy with the progress that has been made.

EMMA's posting preferences are useless at this point.

We were told the MEMS app in Monitor Mass was going to be a great tool for planning our career progression; As an IST I can't move up in rank according to the app unless I drop out of IST and go into ACISS Core first. This is for every rank level within IST. This seems rather odd to me.

The continued delays in finding out if we're getting spec pay or not I realize is out of the trade's hands at the moment, however in the middle of a recession is really not a good time to be asking for money, the extra 3 years of delay in implementing MES is what has put us in that situation.

Promotion Ranking this year for IST puts me at a disadvantage because my peers were considered Sig Ops last year and managed to get promoted, now even though my overall score is much higher, and I'm higher on the list for my trade, now that I have 3 MOIs. It is looking like I have a snowball's chance in hell of getting promoted when it was almost a certainty up until this according to my supervisor.

The fact that the career managers are possibly not visiting Gagetown and Halifax this year and are not releasing information about the promotion forecast is also troubling.

I think most of the grumbling, at least on my part, is there is little information coming down the pipe. What is given to us is broken or incomplete. Any time we ask for clarification and reassurances we get told: "Don't worry it'll all work out fine" and have been told this for years.

I'm feeling a bit like a mushroom here and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on January 09, 2013, 10:42:08
C_Canuk,

While you bring up a lot of valid point that I agree with.....the one about the promotion forcast is answered if you go into EMAA and download the CM brief. Its no secret. ISTs are seeing like 7 to MCpl this year. (Not at work, so I can confirm, but I know the number is close to that). Regardless, you are absolutely correct. I was an instructor at CFSCE when the MES briefings fired up. And EVERY one of them, I was one of the ones saying "hey what about this....and this....AND THIS".......and all they did was blow smoke up our collective a$$es.

Long story short, if they hope to retain members, this really isn't the way.......Its like a kidnapper asking his hostage for a date afterwards........
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on January 09, 2013, 11:03:41
Good day

I just flipped through the PPT Deck on EMMA and there is no promotion forecast.

My Supervisor inquired through the foreman channels back channels and was told 3.

I'm told through rumor mill that the PPT Deck shown at CM General brief includes the forecast, but that portion is not included on the deck on EMMA.

Cheers
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on January 09, 2013, 11:13:27
Good day

I just flipped through the PPT Deck on EMMA and there is no promotion forecast.

My Supervisor inquired through the foreman channels back channels and was told 3.

I'm told through rumor mill that the PPT Deck shown at CM General brief includes the forecast, but that portion is not included on the deck on EMMA.

Cheers

weird.....I know I saw it there because where I am currently posted we wont see the CM.....ever, so I went and checked it the other day. I am back at work tomorrow and will see WTF I was looking at.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 09, 2013, 11:49:44
No one has talked about the fact that we may have training recognized through a college soon.  We could have our apprentice, journeyman and red seals all recognized outside of the military as well.

This is the first time I noticed this post, and I have to comment on it.

What training is going to be recognized by what college?  Recognized in what way?

What apprentice, journeymen and red seal trades could be recognized by what entity/organization?

Knowing the history behind the struggle that the Naval Electronics Technician trade went through to receive accreditation, I'm extremely skeptical of the above claims.  The Canadian Technology Accreditation Board (CTAB), a committee of the Canadian Council of Technicians and Technologists (CCTT), closely examined the CF's training curriculum of the NE Tech trades in the mid '80s.  Recommendations were made to bring the curriculum in line with the requirements for certification (mostly dealing with the number of hours of instruction in electronics principles), and as a result the NE Tech training at QL5 was accredited at the Technician level.  NE Techs who attained QL5 since then have been able to apply to one of the provincial associations for certification as Certified Technicians (C.Tech).  The C.Tech designation (like CET, P.Eng, etc.) is trademarked and controlled under legislation in each province.

I'm familiar with the electronics training that LCIS Techs have been taking over the years, as well as the types of training available to Sig Ops/LCIS Techs in the IT field.  Knowing that the level of their formal training was never sufficient to meet the requirements for certification in either electronics or computer technology, and that in fact the level of technical training has been progressively pared down over the years, I'm keenly interested in knowing what formal college (or otherwise) recognition is about to be granted to the ACISS trade at various qualification levels.  I can't speak to whether the Linemen training would or wouldn't qualify for certification because I'm not familiar with the level/quantity of their training in the CF, or the civilian certification process in that trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Dyolfknip on January 09, 2013, 11:55:28
This is the first time I noticed this post, and I have to comment on it.

What training is going to be recognized by what college?  Recognized in what way?

What apprentice, journeymen and red seal trades could be recognized by what entity/organization?

Knowing the history behind the struggle that the Naval Electronics Technician trade went through to receive accreditation, I'm extremely skeptical of the above claims.  The Canadian Technology Accreditation Board (CTAB), a committee of the Canadian Council of Technicians and Technologists (CCTT), closely examined the CF's training curriculum of the NE Tech trades in the mid '80s.  Recommendations were made to bring the curriculum in line with the requirements for certification (mostly dealing with the number of hours of instruction in electronics principles), and as a result the NE Tech training at QL5 was accredited at the Technician level.  NE Techs who attained QL5 since then have been able to apply to one of the provincial associations for certification as Certified Technicians (C.Tech).  The C.Tech designation (like CET, P.Eng, etc.) is trademarked and controlled under legislation in each province.

I'm familiar with the electronics training that LCIS Techs have been taking over the years, as well as the types of training available to Sig Ops/LCIS Techs in the IT field.  Knowing that the level of their formal training was never sufficient to meet the requirements for certification in either electronics or computer technology, and that in fact the level of technical training has been progressively pared down over the years, I'm keenly interested in knowing what formal college (or otherwise) recognition is about to be granted to the ACISS trade at various qualification levels.  I can't speak to whether the Linemen training would or wouldn't qualify for certification because I'm not familiar with the level/quantity of their training in the CF, or the civilian certification process in that trade.

Ya I have to agree, al lI have ever seen is Athabasca offering credits for stuff. And not even that much....http://www.athabascau.ca/contact/askau/index.php?question=How+do+I+transfer+military+credits+to+Athabasca+University?&type=related (http://www.athabascau.ca/contact/askau/index.php?question=How+do+I+transfer+military+credits+to+Athabasca+University?&type=related)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 09, 2013, 13:19:08
Good day

I just flipped through the PPT Deck on EMMA and there is no promotion forecast.

My Supervisor inquired through the foreman channels back channels and was told 3.

I'm told through rumor mill that the PPT Deck shown at CM General brief includes the forecast, but that portion is not included on the deck on EMMA.

Cheers

That PPT is not uploaded to the site until every base has had their interviews with the CM. I've already had mine, but can't remember the IST numbers as Christmas leave is blocking the memory. You'd be right to have a low estimate, I do not believe it was a double digit number.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ringo598 on January 09, 2013, 15:13:58
Dyolfknip,

I'll grab one of my buddies in the tech shop here in Kingston who's doing the accreditation program (They have been advised they're a 'pilot' test of this training), they actual have a written document they had to sign about their obligations and what they are getting out of it, currently for them its for guys going through the CST stream, they have quite a bit of online learning which they've been getting 2-3 days a week to do for the last several months.  (mostly technical theory like parallel/series circuits, wave theory, AC/DC, ohms law, etc.  Which I presume would have been taught in the old POET).  I've seen the home learning stuff their doing first hand as I'm tutoring a couple of them since I went to school for computer eng) I'm almost positive the accreditation was a technologist diploma via George Brown college but I'll get a copy this evening and post the details.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 09, 2013, 17:40:06
Dyolfknip,

I'll grab one of my buddies in the tech shop here in Kingston who's doing the accreditation program (They have been advised they're a 'pilot' test of this training), they actual have a written document they had to sign about their obligations and what they are getting out of it, currently for them its for guys going through the CST stream, they have quite a bit of online learning which they've been getting 2-3 days a week to do for the last several months.  (mostly technical theory like parallel/series circuits, wave theory, AC/DC, ohms law, etc.  Which I presume would have been taught in the old POET).  I've seen the home learning stuff their doing first hand as I'm tutoring a couple of them since I went to school for computer eng) I'm almost positive the accreditation was a technologist diploma via George Brown college but I'll get a copy this evening and post the details.

Impossible. 

It's certainly not a technologist (typically three years of full time study) or technician (typically two years of full time study) diploma.  George Brown offers a distance learning certificate program, where the credits can be applied towards the Electronics Engineering Technician diploma program at another institution, but the certificate by itself and a $1.75 will get you a coffee at Timmy's.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: ringo598 on January 15, 2013, 13:49:20
@Occam,

You are correct, its a good thing I used that 'almost positive' line in my last post so that my foots not too far in my mouth.  My buddy forwarded me the link to the ACIMS site that has the CST training pilot info, and here's the scoop:

2.   Students that successfully complete all modules of the George Brown distance education program including lab projects, review exercises and tests will be granted an Electronics Technician Certificate from that institution.  On successful completion of DP1.1 CSS and DP2.1 CST, students will be granted National Qualification Codes AKOI and AKOR.

So, no technologist for them.  Well...at least they get 'technician' in there somewhere  :-\
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 15, 2013, 14:33:21
Well, they can call themselves an electronics technician, but they won't be able to be a Certified Technician (C.Tech).  More often than not, employers are looking for people who are able to be certified by the provinicial licensing body (in Ontario, OACETT).  A electronics technician certificate program certainly won't be getting you any jobs much more than minimum wage.

A Certified Engineering Technologist (CET) is usually a three year full time program, and gets into the design world.  There aren't any trades in the CF that will put you anywhere close to those qualifications.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on January 31, 2013, 05:02:52
Well, they can call themselves an electronics technician, but they won't be able to be a Certified Technician (C.Tech).  More often than not, employers are looking for people who are able to be certified by the provinicial licensing body (in Ontario, OACETT).  A electronics technician certificate program certainly won't be getting you any jobs much more than minimum wage.

A Certified Engineering Technologist (CET) is usually a three year full time program, and gets into the design world.  There aren't any trades in the CF that will put you anywhere close to those qualifications.

Although you're basically 95% correct, I would beg to differ a little on the C.Tech from OACETT. I think for someone whom is in my position it's attainable. I'm waiting for dust to settle (posting message and move) but I plan to apply for the designation and/or challenge for it. Again, I think for most of the IST pers, it's not really an option as they don't have enough in-depth experience but for a few of us, it's possible. Day-to-day active directory password resets does not, a C.Tech make! Those of us in system administrator/manager positions on classified systems for the past few years, through evolutions of said systems and tens of thousands of dollars in civvy IT courses plus CFSCE/army IT courses plus operational tours as classified system admins etc... I've got to have a shot at it anyways. I'm already hired as a IT sub-contractor on the side (with an approved memo from my unit CO!) and make anywhere from $38-$55/Hr depending on the job plus extras!

For those of you fellow IST's who wonder why you should even bother trying to attain C.Tech status... Think of jobs in places like Ottawa for example, that require Top Secret and/or higher, plus a provincial tech certification. For someone like me without formal college/university, the C.Tech qualifies me for those fancy IT jobs. It makes an arguement for spec pay at the very least. Furthermore, if you attain provincial certification, it gives you PER points and extra points on the yearly board! So if you're going in the for the long haul... Or not, either way it's worth it.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on January 31, 2013, 07:27:35
You can apply, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.  OACETT and the other provincial bodies are exceptionally stringent when it comes to meeting the academic requirements for the certification level you're seeking, though they do have a PLAR process (http://www.oacett.org/page.asp?P_ID=648) you can utilize.  You have to remember, though, that the C.Tech certification is meant to recognize completion of a full, 2-year post secondary engineering technician or applied science diploma program or equivalent.  To give you some context of exactly what that is, take a look at the Information Technology program at NSCC (http://www.nscc.ca/Learning_Programs/Programs/PlanDescr.aspx?prg=IFTG&pln=IT-NOCONC).  I've probably taken many of the training programs you have, including MCSE, CCNA, etc., etc., and they still don't add up to anything remotely close to the number of hours of instruction and scope of curriculum taken in a full-time program.

I don't want to discourage you from applying, but don't have overly high hopes either.  They'll tell you exactly what core competencies you're missing if you don't meet the requirements.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on January 31, 2013, 19:37:59
Pay review update: Credible email on DWAN received today, DPPD screwed the pooch and didn't start in December 2012 like they were supposed to, review is now slated to start NLT 1 Mar 13 and conclude NLT 1 May 13. So in other words, we'll know in July 2014.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on February 02, 2013, 14:18:17
review is now slated to start NLT 1 Mar 13 and conclude NLT 1 May 13. So in other words, we'll know in July 2014.

We all know how that went the last 3 times...

Do they not get how much this continuous crap show is obliterating morale?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 02, 2013, 16:37:45
Do they not get how much this continuous crap show is obliterating morale?

ACISS in general started obliterating morale, but I can see a lot of troops losing trust in the senior leadership of the branch. That's going to be a huge hill for them to climb to gain that trust back.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: LCISindenial on February 03, 2013, 11:35:00
"Directorate of Pay Policy and Development

DPPD is responsible for the strategic advancement of Canadian Forces compensation policy, within the guidelines provided by Treasury Board, in such a way as to enhance the Forces' ability to attract, retain and motivate its most valuable resource - its members."

Hmmm. Not really motivating too many folks as far as I've seen...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: technophile on February 06, 2013, 11:45:22
décennie de noirceur, deuxième manche !!


take away spec pay, no significant pay raises, very little promotions.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on February 06, 2013, 21:00:48
I will be shocked if the spec pay issue is approved. By combined the trades into the ACISS occupation they have diluted the spec occupations enough that there isn't a critical mass of pers in spec pay qualifying jobs...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 06, 2013, 21:04:20
But didn't you hear, all sub occ WOs and above are going to get Spec 2! Because they will be doing so much specialist work as a LCMM....  ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on February 07, 2013, 23:21:00
But didn't you hear, all sub occ WOs and above are going to get Spec 2! Because they will be doing so much specialist work as a LCMM....  ::)

Not this cat!! They will not be able to drag me into one of those jobs!!

(And yes I noted your sarcasm, but I still don't want that job)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 07, 2013, 23:44:22
Not this cat!! They will not be able to drag me into one of those jobs!!

(And yes I noted your sarcasm, but I still don't want that job)

Here, here! Canvas monkeys unite.  ;D
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on February 08, 2013, 12:26:38
Here, here! Canvas monkeys unite.  ;D

It's cool to be core! ;)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jammer on February 08, 2013, 12:49:26
Hear, Hear!!!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on February 14, 2013, 15:09:25
"Directorate of Pay Policy and Development

DPPD is responsible for the strategic advancement of Canadian Forces compensation policy, within the guidelines provided by Treasury Board, in such a way as to enhance the Forces' ability to attract, retain and motivate its most valuable resource - its members."

Hmmm. Not really motivating too many folks as far as I've seen...

Typical doublespeak that you find everywhere.

The public face statement is always about how a dept gets orgasms from doing the best job they can, putting everyone else above themselves and working ceaselessly towards constant improvement because they are perfect team players.

In reality depts are always staffed with overworked and burned out people, who are only concerned with toe'ing the party line and not getting hassled.

Since no one figuratively lost their heads over the previous delays, processing the spec pay request is low on their priority list and will not have a firm deadline until there are consequences for failure to meet them.

This is not as much a reflection on those that should be working on it, but a reflection on how many hats everyone has to wear these days. The items with the lowest repercussions for failure, and thus those with the lowest priority, are the cans that get constantly kicked down the road.

The question is, how do we get the priority raised and who in our organization should be raising hell...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on February 14, 2013, 16:37:50
The question is, how do we get the priority raised and who in our organization should be raising hell...

D Sigs should be, as the very livelihood of his trades are at stake here. But time will tell.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: rmc_wannabe on February 14, 2013, 16:58:01
D Sigs should be, as the very livelihood of his trades are at stake here. But time will tell.

Ha! Seeing as most of the upper echelons of the D Sigs shop has been pushing ye olde "Embrace change and quit bitching" line for the past 5 years makes me very skeptical that they have a vested interest in the livelihood of the trades.

For a pessimist, I'm pretty optimistic about MES. However my realist tendancies are pushing me to believe Spec Pay is the opiate ofthe ACISS trade.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on February 15, 2013, 23:59:42
Ha! Seeing as most of the upper echelons of the D Sigs shop has been pushing ye olde "Embrace change and quit bitching" line for the past 5 years makes me very skeptical that they have a vested interest in the livelihood of the trades.

For a pessimist, I'm pretty optimistic about MES. However my realist tendancies are pushing me to believe Spec Pay is the opiate ofthe ACISS trade.

You know my tin foil hat wants to suggest the possibility that one of the points of ACISS was to provide the opportunity to revoke spec pay from the trade.

I mean they've already come out to say that they intend to hijack whole waves of ACISS Core students and push them into sub occupations for short term needs, then when the need is over let them apply to go to other sub occs. The example given was the Olympics.

The reason for this, they stated, is to make sigs more agile, but they gloss over what a clusterfrig that would be to your career if you were shoved into line and intended to go tech, ist or core. it'd be at least a 2 year delay on your projected path. You'd probably deal with the consequences for 5 years or more when you compare time lines for promotions compared to those that didn't get force tasked out of their normal career progression path.


The tin foil hat also wants to suggest that maybe the reason this can keeps getting kicked down the road is so that those getting ready to retire don't have to deal with their pension being mucked with if spec pay gets revoked... although I would assume any collecting it would get grandfathered, not just loose it.

It feels to me that we're not seen as individual soldiers anymore, but interchangeable plug and play things that have no career aspirations.

I think if spec pay doesn't come about, there are going to be a lot of people looking to change MOC or release if they don't start realizing the negative impact this stuff will have on people's careers.

I mean they already expect us to volunteer in the community, take career and trade courses, do OPMEs (defunct now), and second language trg on our own time, Then you add in workup trg and missions...

At some point they need to wake up and realize there are only so many hours in the day and this kind of workload is burning people out. People need time to relax and look after their families as well. And they need to be able to tell their families what is going to happen for the next year or so.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on March 09, 2013, 22:53:53
Friendly tip to anyone who wants to make it past MCpl in IST at least but probably the whole trade.

Don't wait for the CF to Offer second language training, it's pretty much senior Sgt and WO only, but you're going to need it if you want to get that far.

Don't say I didn't warn ya.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on March 10, 2013, 12:20:51
Friendly tip to anyone who wants to make it past MCpl in IST at least but probably the whole trade.

Don't wait for the CF to Offer second language training, it's pretty much senior Sgt and WO only, but you're going to need it if you want to get that far.

Don't say I didn't warn ya.

They cut French SLT in half this year for budget cuts, only being offered to merited MWOs from what I've heard. I believe there was only 2 year-long spots for the whole trade last year, and I'd expect the same this year.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on March 10, 2013, 18:29:00

They cut French SLT in half this year for budget cuts, only being offered to merited MWOs from what I've heard. I believe there was only 2 year-long spots for the whole trade last year, and I'd expect the same this year.
Then I know both (Sgts) and they are both in Kingston doing the course.  I'm fairly certain there were more than two this (last) year.


Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on April 15, 2013, 11:31:28
So, I heard a rumor...

The rumor goes like this, IST could be removed as a sub occ.

IST's who were techs will go back to CST and IST Sig Ops will go to ACISS core.

Just a rumor, but if spec pay is proving to be difficult to get for all sub occ's, I could see this coming to fruition.

It would be basically the same trade setup as it was before, with CST getting/keeping spec pay.

Anyone else hear this?

Remember...just a rumor!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 15, 2013, 19:00:37
If they get rid of IST, which is one of the big reasons we did this gongshow, then we better roll back everything. IST was going to become obsolete soon anyways, Core pers would have needed the same networking training to run all the new IP-based green kit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Tango18A on April 15, 2013, 20:29:15
I've heard the rumour of going back to the future, evidently the grown ups at the NCR have realized that the implosion wasn't worth the grief
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: signalsguy on April 15, 2013, 22:42:15
I'm not too sure about obsolescence for IST, right now there is a lot of dependence on FSRs and other contractors to keep things running - these jobs could and should be done by mil pers but your average ACISS core soldier is not qualified to do the task, and quite honestly there is enough to learn with HCLOS, TSL, NCCIS, EPLRS, CNR-E etc etc etc. Having a dedicated sub-occ (or trade) specifically for IT allows the development of a capability that we otherwise have had difficulty managing.

I think the main reason we 'did this gongshow' was to create a pool of personnel that can be used as radio operators, no matter what their sub occupations ultimately become.

By the way, the network task (programming routers, switches, crypto) should be a CST job, with the ACISS core running the first line help desk and the ISTs locked up in the server room managing servers.

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on April 15, 2013, 23:17:01
I'm not too sure about obsolescence for IST, right now there is a lot of dependence on FSRs and other contractors to keep things running - these jobs could and should be done by mil pers but your average ACISS core soldier is not qualified to do the task, and quite honestly there is enough to learn with HCLOS, TSL, NCCIS, EPLRS, CNR-E etc etc etc. Having a dedicated sub-occ (or trade) specifically for IT allows the development of a capability that we otherwise have had difficulty managing.

I think the main reason we 'did this gongshow' was to create a pool of personnel that can be used as radio operators, no matter what their sub occupations ultimately become.

By the way, the network task (programming routers, switches, crypto) should be a CST job, with the ACISS core running the first line help desk and the ISTs locked up in the server room managing servers.

The dreams of ACISS (and ATIS Techs, and several other trades) creating a hard IT trade will never happen.  The amount of server/network administration being done by uniformed personnel will continue to decline, and more will be done by civilians.  There's just too much to learn, and the military environment barely permits someone to get really good at one role before they're promoted or simply posted away into a different role.  There's no continuity.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on April 15, 2013, 23:27:26
I think the main reason we 'did this gongshow' was to create a pool of personnel that can be used as radio operators, no matter what their sub occupations ultimately become.

Good luck taking someone who's been in a helpdesk or server farm for 5-10 years and having them run a radio shift competently without maximum supervision. Either you want IST to be a trade, or you want network tasks to be with CSTs. I really don't see room for both. Why the heck would you train one trade to set up the servers, and one to manage them, and one to run helpdesk? That's the biggest waste of resources since NDHQ.

Occam is absolutely right. Deployed networks are relatively simple compared to the DWAN if you have any sort of IT skills. If you're got a Core operator, that can already program HCLOS, TSL, EPLRS, he has the base skillsets to maintain that deployed server and set up user accounts. This isn't the 1980s where some recruits have never seen a computer before. You've got kids being recruited that already have an IT background, and will get even more of it with the newer green kit that gets deployed. Managing those servers running Active Directory is not rocket surgery.

Heck, the ISTs at my unit can't even fix the simplest problems without telling us to call 7777, or I can just fix them myself. They're doing more CST backfill work than computer work, and quite frankly if I could trade them for 2 more Core operators I would in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on April 29, 2013, 10:36:19
So is the Spec Pay decision still coming out on 1 May 13?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on April 29, 2013, 13:42:58
So is the Spec Pay decision still coming out on 1 May 13?

Now that Sir, is an effective troll!

 >:D

Hillarious!
 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on April 29, 2013, 13:47:50
I was trying to figure out how to work BigDaddyFatback's comment into a "Carnac the Magnificent" joke, but I don't think I had enough coffee this morning to pull it off.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on April 29, 2013, 14:12:25
I think we all love our job enough to stay no matter what we are paid, or when our next pay raise will be....2 Promotions for me.

Also, we are now implementing a 28 hour day....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: George Wallace on April 29, 2013, 14:14:22
Also, we are now implementing a 28 hour day....

Damn!  I was just getting used to the 10 day week.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: IT_Dude_Joeschmo on April 29, 2013, 14:55:39
Damn!  I was just getting used to the 10 day week.

Heh, funny thing, we at 1 Sigs have been working insane days/nights/hours/shifts like that for months now. I have personally had 4 weekends since Christmas leave... 2 of those were on flights to/from Kingston for Ex Cyber Challenge (My choice, I applied for it so I accept it!). 1 of those was used with the Tp OC and Warrant calling us in to recount everything we have in our entire inventory on the 1 weekend between ex's we had on 3 different skas... 1 weekend actually left of personal time.

To say that most people at 1 Sigs are burnt out is a bad understatement. To say those in my Tp specifically are burnt out is not needed. Out of all the pers in my troop, only 2 have resigned contracts... Some of us are posted, some VR'd, some are finishing contracts and some are OTing to different trades. It's literally going to be a ghost town here come Nov.

I'm OTing and posted! So far....
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on April 29, 2013, 17:58:58
Heh, funny thing, we at 1 Sigs have been working insane days/nights/hours/shifts like that for months now. I have personally had 4 weekends since Christmas leave... 2 of those were on flights to/from Kingston for Ex Cyber Challenge (My choice, I applied for it so I accept it!). 1 of those was used with the Tp OC and Warrant calling us in to recount everything we have in our entire inventory on the 1 weekend between ex's we had on 3 different skas... 1 weekend actually left of personal time.

To say that most people at 1 Sigs are burnt out is a bad understatement. To say those in my Tp specifically are burnt out is not needed. Out of all the pers in my troop, only 2 have resigned contracts... Some of us are posted, some VR'd, some are finishing contracts and some are OTing to different trades. It's literally going to be a ghost town here come Nov.

I'm OTing and posted! So far....

And yet, somewhere, someone is pumping rainbows out of a bellows making some highers in that particular place think that everyone loves being there. I find it hard to miss the heads hanging down whenever I visit.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: c_canuk on May 01, 2013, 15:43:09
Good luck taking someone who's been in a helpdesk or server farm for 5-10 years and having them run a radio shift competently without maximum supervision. Either you want IST to be a trade, or you want network tasks to be with CSTs. I really don't see room for both. Why the heck would you train one trade to set up the servers, and one to manage them, and one to run helpdesk? That's the biggest waste of resources since NDHQ.

Occam is absolutely right. Deployed networks are relatively simple compared to the DWAN if you have any sort of IT skills. If you're got a Core operator, that can already program HCLOS, TSL, EPLRS, he has the base skillsets to maintain that deployed server and set up user accounts. This isn't the 1980s where some recruits have never seen a computer before. You've got kids being recruited that already have an IT background, and will get even more of it with the newer green kit that gets deployed. Managing those servers running Active Directory is not rocket surgery.

Heck, the ISTs at my unit can't even fix the simplest problems without telling us to call 7777, or I can just fix them myself. They're doing more CST backfill work than computer work, and quite frankly if I could trade them for 2 more Core operators I would in a heartbeat.

IMO the DWAN is not complicated, it's just unstable and has too many chefs that don't talk to eachother.

and as far as ISTs not being able to fix things, I don't know about where you are, but here it's because I'm not allowed to and/or cannot get the required privileges. There has never been a problem I couldn't fix, but because of how the local IT has tied everyone's hands, I can't do anything.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 01, 2013, 18:21:13
and as far as ISTs not being able to fix things, I don't know about where you are, but here it's because I'm not allowed to and/or cannot get the required privileges. There has never been a problem I couldn't fix, but because of how the local IT has tied everyone's hands, I can't do anything.

That's what I meant. They don't lack the required skills, they're just not enabled to do their jobs.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: bigdaddyfatback on May 03, 2013, 11:40:31
I am an IST coming from being a tech and like everyone says, we are hand tied when it comes to accessing things on the network like routers/switches etc...
In the last 12 years, I have taken the CCNA bootcamp 3 times/Voip, etc... But then I come back to the unit and we are not granted access to any kit to keep our skills up due to National/DND/SSC policies. Even though I am a Network/Infrastructure Admin by title.

Say a router craps out, it will then be up to me to configure it so Ottawa can push what it needs to. But I have not been afforded the opportunity to work with the kit since my course 2 years ago. And if it takes me a while to refresh myself while the network is down, people start freaking out.

It is a funny cycle of training and then no work/live network experience due to strict control practices (which is necessary sometimes), unless deployed on Ops or Ex.

Also, the breadth of what we are expected to know has ballooned out of control (MES is supposed to rein that in), but again, we are not given the opportunity to use the training on a daily basis and skill fade comes into play very quickly when it comes to ios commands etc...
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: thatistguy on May 08, 2013, 18:15:56
May 1st has come and gone and yet, no definite answer on the spec pay, how surprising! Any rumblings?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 1984 on May 08, 2013, 22:02:42
May 1st has come and gone and yet, no definite answer on the spec pay, how surprising! Any rumblings?

1 Apr - 1 May was the the review period for DPPD to be able to make a recommendation.  Whatever that recommendation is (if they didn't delay the review again) still has to go to TB.  Wait and shoot!
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: technophile on June 06, 2013, 14:41:01
received this today via message from DLCI ( unclas DLCI 197, 031839Z Jun 13 )

aside from the blah, blah, blah " we are committed to our members and the review process "  The real meat is

 " due to circumstances beyond our control, the pay review is taking longer than expected - At this time we cannot speculate on an expected date of completion "

Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: rmc_wannabe on June 06, 2013, 17:25:14
received this today via message from DLCI ( unclas DLCI 197, 031839Z Jun 13 )

aside from the blah, blah, blah " we are committed to our members and the review process "  The real meat is

 " due to circumstances beyond our control, the pay review is taking longer than expected - At this time we cannot speculate on an expected date of completion "

Sounds like they copy pasted the last message and changed the date. Great to aee they're really fighting hard for us over there . ::)
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: thatistguy on June 06, 2013, 18:21:10
I do wonder if all those delays will actually lead to something or if we'll just end up getting a negative answer in the end.   :-\

Hasn't been too many replies in this topic lately! Anyone heard of rumors that the networking part of the IST trade was going to be given to the CSTs and that their trade was going back to being the same it used to be before (LCIS)? I know a lot of LCIS techs that went IST because of that and I am wondering if there is any truth to those rumors or not as I think it would really be a deal breaker for me and a lot of other people in the trade who would feel betrayed in the end if that is what would happen, especially since it would make the IST trade even less relevant I think.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: 211RadOp on June 06, 2013, 18:37:15
I don't how it is done at all units, but at CFJSR networking, particularly on field deployments, is done by IST pers.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: upandatom on June 10, 2013, 08:55:17
Just recieved this first thing this morning,
RE Spec pay, end of summer I presume, but this is dragging on a bit too long,

                         UNCLAS                    7200-1 (DLCI)

01  04  031839Z JUN  13  PP      UUUU                 DLCI 197

 

            NDHQ DLCI OTTAWA

            AIG 1703

            AIG 1817

            AIG 2657

            AIG 2658

UNCLAS DLCI 197

BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE

SUBJ: ACISS PAY EVALUATION - UPDATE TWO

REFS: A. ANNEX I TO 55555-31-MOSID 00362 (DPGR 2-7), 30 JUN 11

B. NDHQ DLCI 005 301611Z JAN 13

 

1.  IAW THE ACISS OCCUPATION IMPLEMENTATION PLAN AT REF A THE

DIRECTORATE OF PAY POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT (DPPD) WAS MANDATED TO

CONDUCT AND COMPLETE A PAY EVALUATION OF THE ACISS OCCUPATION BY 01

JAN 13.  IT WAS ACKNOWLEDGED BY DLCI AT REF B THAT THE INITIAL

DEADLINE COULD NOT BE MET AND A NEW COMPLETION DATE OF 01 MAY 13 WAS

SET BY DPPD

 

2.  IN ANTICIPATION OF THE FORMAL COMMENCEMENT OF THE EVALUATION,

DLCI STAFF CARRIED OUT ADDITIONAL SYNCHRONIZATION WORK WITH DPPD

THROUGHOUT THE FEB TO MAR TIMEFRAME TO ENSURE THE EVALUATION WOULD

BE PERFORMED IAW  THE APPROVED CANADIAN FORCES TRADE EVALUATION PLAN

(CFTEP) GUIDELINES

 

3.  AS ALWAYS, WE CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE EVALUATION PROCESS THROUGH

THE MANY COMPLEXITIES OF EVALUATING THE ACISS TRADE WITHIN ITS NEW

JOB BASED SYSTEM (JBS). HOWEVER, DUE TO CIRCUMSTANCES OUTSIDE OF OUR

CONTROL, THE PAY REVIEW IS TAKING LONGER THAN ORIGINALLY FORECASTED

TO COMPLETE.  DLCI REMAINS COMMITTED TO THE PROCESS AND WE ARE

WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH DPPD TO ENSURE THAT THE ACCURACY OF

INFORMATION AND THE EFFORT PUT FORWARD CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS ACHIEVING

THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME

 

4.  AT THIS TIME WE CAN NOT SPECULATE ON AN EXPECTED DATE OF

COMPLETION. HOWEVER, MEMBERS NEED TO REALIZE THAT THE RECOMMENDATION

MADE BY DPPD FOLLOWING THEIR EVALUATION WILL NOT BE PUBLISHED AND

IMPLEMENTED UNTIL APPROVAL HAS BEEN GIVEN BY THE CDS.  THIS

TYPICALLY ADDS A MONTH OR TWO TO THE PROCESS.  ADDITIONAL

INFORMATION AND UPDATES WILL BE PROVIDED AS THEY BECOME AVAILABLE.

 

EVALUATION DE LA SOLDE SSICA – DEUXIEME MISE A JOUR

 

RÉFS: A. ANNEXE I A 55555-31-ID SGPM 00362 (DBPP 2-7), 30 JUIN 11

B. NDHQ DLCI 005 301611Z JAN 13

 

1. TEL QUE MENTIONNÉ À LA RÉF A DANS LE PLAN DE MISE EN OEUVRE DU

GPM SSICA, LE DIRECTEUR - POLITIQUE ET DÉVELOPPEMENT (SOLDE) (DPDS)

SE DEVAIT D EFFECTUER UNE ÉVALUATION DE LA RÉMUNÉRATION POUR LE GPM

SSICA APTL 1 JAN 13.  IL A ÉTÉ RECONNU PAR DCIT À LA RÉF B QUE LE

DÉLAI INITIAL NE POURRAIT ÊTRE RENCONTRÉ ET UNE NOUVELLE DATE FINALE

DES TRAVAUX A ÉTÉ FIXÉE AU 1 MAI 13 PAR DPDS

 

2. EN PRÉPARATION À L ÉVALUATION OFFICIELLE, LE PERS DE DCIT A

EFFECTUÉ DES TRAVAUX DE SYNCHRONISATION SUPPLÉMENTAIRES AVEC DPDS

DURANT LA PÉRIODE DE FÉVRIER À MARS AFIN DE S ASSURER QUE  L

ÉVALUATION SERAIT EFFECTUÉE EN CONFORMITÉ AVEC LES PARAMÈTRES DU

PLAN D ÉVALUATION DES MÉTIERS DES FORCES CANADIENNES (PEEFC)

 

3. COMME TOUJOURS, NOUS CONTINUONS DE SOUTENIR LE PROCESSUS D

ÉVALUATION DU GPM SSICA DANS LE CONTEXTE PLUS COMPLEXE D UN SYSTÈME

BASÉ SUR LE TRAVAIL. (SBT).  CEPENDANT, POUR DES RAISONS HORS DE

NOTRE CONTRÔLE, L ÉVALUATION DE LA RÉMUNÉRATION EST PLUS LONGUE QUE

PRÉVU QU À L ORIGINE. DICT RESTE ENGAGÉ DANS LE PROCESSUS ET NOUS

TRAVAILLONS ÉTROITEMENT AVEC DPDS AFIN QUE L EXACTITUDE DES

INFORMATIONS ET QUE LES EFFORTS MIS DE L AVANT CONTRIBUENT À L

OBTENTION DU MEILLEUR RÉSULTAT POSSIBLE

 

4.  EN CE MOMENT NOUS NE POUVONS SPÉCULER SUR UNE DATE PRÉVUE

FINALE. TOUTEFOIS, LES MEMBRES DOIVENT COMPRENDRE QUE LA

RECOMMANDATION FAITE PAR DPDS SUITE À LEUR ÉVALUATION NE SERA PAS

PUBLIÉE ET MISE EN OEUVRE AVANT D EN AVOIR OBTENU L APPROBATION DU

CEMD. CELA AJOUTE GÉNÉRALEMENT UN MOIS OU DEUX AU PROCESSUS.  DES

INFORMATIONS COMPLÉMENTAIRES ET MISES À JOUR SERONT FOURNIS DES QU

ILS SERONT DISPONIBLE

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                     

DC. MCLELLAN, LCOL, DLCI-1, 613-971-7396                             

SW. HALL, COL, DLCI, 613-971-7415                                   

                                           UNCLAS   
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Occam on June 10, 2013, 10:20:29
Just recieved this first thing this morning,
RE Spec pay, end of summer I presume, but this is dragging on a bit too long,

Where do you see "end of summer" in there?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: upandatom on June 10, 2013, 10:32:17
Where do you see "end of summer" in there?

Well, as a best case I see that. They state that it goes to the CDS, 1-2 months after that, they should hopefully be near a decision now on it.

End of summer is being an optimist.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 10, 2013, 10:36:28
Are they talking about giving these guys spec pay or taking it away?
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: Beadwindow 7 on June 10, 2013, 10:41:28
Are they talking about giving these guys spec pay or taking it away?

Either or.

Until Amalgamation of the 3 Army Signals trades (Sig Op, Lineman, and LCIS Tech) only LCIS received Spec Pay.

After amalgamation, and the creation of the new Computer Weiner sub-trade (IST) there began a process for review spec pay (Will all get it, will some get it, will those who have it lose it, will none get it). Currently techs who were in receipt of it are pretty much pay frozen pending review.

The review is taking longer than expected/was promised.
Title: Re: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)
Post by: upandatom on June 10, 2013, 10:49:39
Are they talking about giving these guys spec pay or taking it away?

Just making a decision o