Milnet.ca Forums

Air-Force.ca => Air Force Support Trades => Topic started by: TrasnAt on October 13, 2004, 09:19:46

Title: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TrasnAt on October 13, 2004, 09:19:46
Hi all,

I am a dual national and I am at present debating my future between a career with the Royal Navy or in the CF, most likely as an Aerospace controller.   I have a PPL and done post graduate work in Aviation so I have knowledge of how ATC works from a civilian stand point. I was just wondering what how it differs in the military.   I have heard that it is a "nice management job" I have also heard that it can be quite boring and conversely I have also heard it can be quite stressful.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Transat.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on October 13, 2004, 18:34:53
AEC is a very challenging trade in the CF.  Wash out rates are almost as high as the Pilot MOC.

I imagine that all jobs can be boring with times of sheer terror inter-mixed throughout.

Military ATC is quite different than that of the civilian world.  We can do alot of things at an airfield that the average civi-pilot can't and we expect our controllers to be able to adapt to our changing needs.  Unlike a structured time table that exists at larger civilian aerodromes, CF airfields are on a ever-changing tempo with a varied number of "pop-ups" and visits by unscheduled aircraft.

Go for it if you are looking for a challenging and rewarding job.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TrasnAt on October 13, 2004, 20:32:08
Thanks a lot for the info. 

Just one question: does wash-out mean failure or burnout?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TrasnAt on October 13, 2004, 21:04:16
Oh sorry actually blew the dust off my dictionary and learned it means "a complete failure"
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Spartan on October 14, 2004, 00:35:14
What would you say are the most important attributes in a candidate for this MOC?
This is something that I am interested in as a career after school.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Inch on October 14, 2004, 00:44:20
I'd say spatial orientation would be a big plus. You've got to keep track of where aircraft are in the Control zone and sometimes beyond, all the while they're moving at 100+ knots. Then you throw helicopters into the mix, helos don't fly circuits/patterns the same as airplanes, we can go anywhere. So you're going to get a whole lot of different requests and keeping track of them all is pretty important. I think it goes without saying, two aircraft can't occupy the same spot at the same time, they tend to hit each other.  :o

 
Cheers
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on October 14, 2004, 01:35:31
The expression used her at the AESOp school is "being able to walk and chew gum at the same time".......i think it applies to AC op / AEC quite well.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on October 14, 2004, 01:36:43
What would you say are the most important attributes in a candidate for this MOC?

Just to add to what Inch said....   Situational Awareness is key to the AEC MOC - the lack of SA can and will kill aircrew.   The simple task of keeping track of aircraft flying the VFR circuit along with aircraft on an instrument approach can be very challenging indeed.   Moose Jaw is one of the hardest airbases in which to get checked out - at times there can be up to 10 aircraft in the pattern - all travelling at 220 KIAS - all wanting to land.   I can remember being sequenced by tower as number 6 for landing - this did not include the others behind me on downwind and crosswind!   Albeit technology does help the operator - you still have to be a quick thinker and make decisive and safe decisions.

Practice speaking CLEARLY and RAPIDLY at the same time.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on October 15, 2004, 13:23:00
TrasnAT,

As with much of life, the job appeals to certain types of individuals, with different reactions to the stresses and demands. Keep in mind that there is no such thing as an air traffic controller anymore, the trade has merged with the (old) air weapons control trade to form the (new) aerospace control trade. As a newbie coming through the training system you will be taught radar control, (common to both atc and air weapons) then brach off into a specialty- either air weapons, atc terminal/arrival, or atc tower. As usual, your requested job placement will be weighed against the needs of the service.

If you go air weapons, you will probably spend your first tour in North bay- after that, the world is your oyster and you can stay put, get posted in Canada, or go most anywhere that NATO and the US fly. Ground tours as well as AWACS are open to you.

Ifr you go the atc route, then there are a  variety of bases open to you, each with their own unique problems and perks. ATC used to be a costant fast paced job, but with all of the cutbacks in airframes and flying hours, it has become a feast or famine position. One minute your bored to tears, the next you have 100 fighters coming home- and that makes up for the boredome!

I cannot say much about the transport bases, as I've been a fighter controller the entire time I've been an atc-oops, aec. :)

I was in the army for many years before I switched over to the Air Force, and in all honesty I'm glad I was- I had the chance to roar around the world, seeing good things and challenging the hail out of myself- and when my body finally broke, I got "put out to pasture"...only to find an incredibly challenging and exciting job, that I could perform fine with a busted up body, and allowed me to spend time with my family.

PM if you want specifics.

Cheers-Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 169er on November 10, 2004, 09:36:00
Well,

Ive been a 169 for just over 2 years now, not a long time by any means, but i gotta say that the degree of "excitement" is based upon your choices here.   

After 3s in Cornwall at Nav Canada (we have the nicest facility for training in the entire CF, its like living in a hotel for 2 months) you have the availability to be posted as either Air Defense (which means you get to go to NORAD in North Bay as a Tracking Technician or TT) or to ATC as either B-stand, terminal IFR delivery or Wing Ops( at any airbase that actually HAS military aircraft, if theres room... good luck if you wanted comox or trenton).  From there the trade branches out into other areas. 

Air defence side you can get second Quals primarily as:

ID tech- working in conjunction with Navcan to Identify incoming a/c tracked by the TT's
Interface Control - Uplinks and stuff i cant really talk more about.
Weapons- la creme De la creme at 22 Wing, working with controllers, to do CF-18 missions

As ATC- I cant really tell you alot about this other than I know you can get a qual as a ground controller.

Once you hit eligibility for your 5's you have the option yet again... remain 169 as A/D or ATC or go to 170-- Spec pay and possibly one of the most academically challenging and stressful courses you will endure in the air force.

170 is a Radar controller... you either do Precision Approach Radar, or Traffic Control on circuit... I'm not there yet, so I'm not really the guy to tell you about it...

Life in North Bay on the other hand... If you're single, it is fairly boring, but there is enough to do to keep you occupied for a little while, at least until you discover bigger and better things to do with your time off...  Right now, on crew we are on 8 hour shifts... 7 days on, 3 off, 7 on 4 off... the alterate between 3 days 4 swings/mids, and 4 days, 3 swings/mids.

Confused yet?  It takes some getting used to...

All and all, the AD side of the house isn't too bad, you can eventually work as aircrew on E-3 Sentries, in places like alaska or germany, or go to the other NORAD areas like Colorado, or Florida or Washington...

Just be sure you check it all out before you jump in... it takes a long time to get to those places, most require you to be at least a master corporal before you go anywhere now.  So you could be stuck in the Bay for a few years...

ON the bright side, we are moving out of the Underground Complex within the next year or two, as we have a brand spankin new facility going up above ground here on base for us...

All and all, thats about all i can think of for my side of the trade, you'd have to find a guy who went ATC side to get the details on that end...

Hope i was of some  help...

-169er
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: easyco_chic on January 30, 2006, 14:41:40
Hi,
Does anyone happen to know when the next 3's course is for Aerospace control operator?  Also, if anyone as any past experience with this course, I would appreciate any information on this topic.

Thanks in advance,
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on April 11, 2006, 22:05:54
I'm interested in this as well. Does anyone have any information on upcoming courses ?

I'm also looking for comments on the responsibilities of AC Ops in the CF. How does the ATC side of an AC Op in the CF compare to say a VFR, IFR controller in civy land. According to the dnd site the QL3 course is only 2 months long, doesn't seem like a lot of time to learn / apply ATC principles ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on April 28, 2006, 16:31:44
100+ Views and no response.  :(
Would like to get some feedback from someone who has either worked as, with or knows of an AC Op in the CF. Thank-you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on April 28, 2006, 23:48:02
Flatspin,

No, two months is not a long time to learn/apply ATC principles.  That's because as a QL3 AC Op you are not considered a "controller".  If you end up in the ATC world you will either be a Tower Assistant or a Terminal Assistant with no control responsibilities.  Once you take your QL5 you can then be either a Ground Controller or a Precision Approach Radar (PAR) controller.  To become the equivalent of a civie VFR or IFR controller you would have to become an Aerospace Controller (AEC).  Which is an officer occupation.  Either way you go, remember AC Ops or AEC has two sides, Air Traffic Control and Air Weapons Control
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on April 29, 2006, 12:47:28
Thank-you for the response. What sorts of responsibilities would one have as a tower, terminal assistant ? And on the Air Weapons side is it primarily a surveillance job, would 3-5 years be an average time frame before getting your QL5 ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on April 30, 2006, 23:06:49
I'm an air weapons controller, so I could maybe answer a few of your questions, or at least direct you to some AC Ops.  I know many of them. :)

As far as being on the weapons side, you begin doing surveillance, then can progress up to ID, or work with links.  To become a WASO (weapons tech) you have to go on another course I believe, and it's after a few years doing the other stuff.

I'm not 100% familiar with AC Op training, but I know that you have to put in your time doing surveillance and ID.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on May 02, 2006, 00:21:54
When we used to give tours of the tower I used to joke that the Tower Assistant was the Tower Secretary.  Now that I think about it, it is probably not far from the truth.  if you take out the word Tower or Terminal and replace it with Administrative it would be an accurate description of their responsibilities.  As a Tower or Terminal Assistant you would process flight plans, prepare flight strips, handle most statistics and records keeping and, oh yes, answer the phones just to mention a few.  After making the secretary crack (not meaning to denigrate anyones profession as I truly believe that a good Admin Assistant is worth their weight in gold) I would then say that the Assistant is the most important position in the Tower.  Without this person doing there job properly, the Tower/Terminal would come to a grinding halt.  In ATC, as in AWC I am sure, you function as a team.  Each position has an important role to perform to ensure a successful outcome, a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of air traffic.  Some position have more responsibility added to them, but each is vital in there own way.  (Listen to me, I sound just like a recruiting officer).

As far as how long you wait before you get your QL5, I think closer three years is more realistic then five.  However, for quite some time we were not getting any new recruits, or very few, into ATC.  It has only been in the last few years that privates began showing back up in the unit, and I left before any of them went on their QL5.  I'm only assuming that they actual got to go on them.  I remember hearing rumours that the course actually existed.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on May 02, 2006, 00:58:06
When we used to give tours of the tower I used to joke that the Tower Assistant was the Tower Secretary.  Now that I think about it, it is probably not far from the truth. 

Not the response I was hoping for but thanks anyway. I probably wouldn't get that version of the job responsibilities from the local recruiting center.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 02, 2006, 15:49:30
Flatspin,

Air4ce is essentially correct, however it has kinda negative connotations. The Tower/Terminal B-stand is NOT an administrative asistant. Everyone in a tower and a terminal environment has their own job to do, with the common goal of moving metal in a safe, orderly and efficient manner.

Tower- various towers have from one to three Officer controllers on duty at a time, and may have a supervisor there as well if things are extremely busy. There will also be an NCM ground traffic ontroller, as well as an NCM supervisor for particularly busy times. The Data controller/data assistant/B-stand (same position, three names) will feed information to all positions, and imho is easily the busiest position in tower. A typical busy day in Cold Lake Tower will see a Tower controller on each runway (inner and outer) as well as a third controller streaming the flow into the control zone. There will be a ground controller as well as a data assist. Finally, there will be a senior controller watching over all, as well as a senior NCM helping the ground and data. On a good day, there will be app 100+ movements per hour, and each and every single one of them will go through the data dude twice. Miss one, and you may have left a guy for dead. As well, you'll have a zillion phone calls to work, info passed up from radar, co-ordinating calls from outside the unit, and emergencies (there always are) to announce on the base PA, as well as initial response to get going- you do all of that too. Again, I've done every position, lots, and imho the data assist is the busiest.

Terminal- no change, except now you'll be taking and issuing flight plans, and to do this you'll get to talk on a radio to pilots. Same number of movements, more controllers to babysit, and more responsibility- screw up a flight plan and I guarantee someone will be hurting. As well, on big recoveries you may well end up writing strips for the terminal controller. Again,  I've done all the postions in Terminal and imho the data assist is the busiest person in the room.

Best of all, after you've proven yourself in data there's a PAR or ground course on the way. May only take one year, may take more....but it is usually very quick, we prefer people to be qualified in all positions.

Generally speaking, the ATC NCM's have more responsibility on their shoulders than anyone else I know of. For instance, a PAR controller will be 100% responsible for landing 50 Mil $ fighters all day long, on their own. As well, you'll do the same for 200 Mil $ 747's with 300 people on board....screw that one up, you'll have to serve 300 years to pay supply back :)

It's a good trade, though not for everyone. If you cannot handle stress or think fast on your feet, find another way to make a living. If you can, it's a great way to live.

Cheers-Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on May 02, 2006, 16:32:25
Thanks for the response Garry, lots of good information straight from the source. I assume PAR is still routinely used in the Air force instead of ILS ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 02, 2006, 18:29:11
Both PAR and ILS (as well as TACAN, NDB, and GPS)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: EX_RCAC_011 on May 02, 2006, 20:34:36
Had a friend just grad the ac op three's ,said it was a cakewalk.Hes gone to shearwater now.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on May 02, 2006, 21:54:54
Flatspin,

It's a good trade, though not for everyone. If you cannot handle stress or think fast on your feet, find another way to make a living. If you can, it's a great way to live.


Good post Garry.  I'm surprised you can see the screen with all that long hair in your eyes.

Flatspin - Sorry, didn't intend to sound negative, it just kind of came out that way.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 02, 2006, 23:38:20
Hey all,

I am in the process of putting in my CT to Air Force, and am considering both ATIS and AC Op.  I think the Weapons side appeals to me much more than the ATC side for AC Ops...any info on what that side of the house is like?  I haved watched the video on the Recruiting website where it talks about Surv and I.D. but...its not the "nuts and bolts" I was hoping to get on "life for the first 5 years after TQ3".

Is your first posting N Bay for sure?  How long before you get to put in for US/Europe tours?  What percentage of the trade is actually in AWACS?  Rank level for AWACS?  I am assuming Snr NCO's and WO's only???  Once you go Wpns, do you stay there and not go to ATC (if thats what you really want)?  Or is it sorta like POET trng used to be...depending on how you do on the course, they pick you for ATC or Wpns then??

Any info is REALLY appreciated...its like AC Ops are ghosts in Halifax..no one knows one ( or even what an AC Op is ).   ;D 

Mud
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LIKELY on May 03, 2006, 09:08:26


I am in the process of putting in my CT to Air Force, and am considering both ATIS and AC Op. 

Mud,
I can see it now...Flight 135 thsi is MRM you are cleared to taxi on runway 9er...Helloooo? I said 9 you fu%^&ng loser.(throws headset in disgust)
(says to tower OC) Sir, can you come over here?...Am I speaking english or what? This stupid C*ckS$%#@  is retarded....I am outta here.

MRM goes tos NorthBay Mess and kills bartender because he finds out Alpine is considered an import...cost of living way too high.

At least in the corps we can shoot what pisses us off.

Are you serious? You were coming with me last week. But you would fit in PT wise... Haha
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 03, 2006, 13:41:00
Flatspin,

I promised myself in '77 that I'd grow my hair back in three years after I found a real job :) Hard, had to buy my first comb in years, and while my hair is growing, it's coming back in patches.

Likely,

Everyone is always (ALWAYS) extremely professional on the radio...but if you think for one second that expletevices aren't expleted in between transmissions, nor headsets chucked across the Ops room, then you're sadly mistaken. The Air Force also looks at you a little funny if you show up to work with a weapon (yes, I've proven it) so no shooting those that aggravate you.

One other thing- there's not as many weapons platforms in the air as there used to be. ATC seems to be much like the Army- 90% boredom followed by 10% sheer panic.

Cheers- Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on May 03, 2006, 13:55:30
Flatspin,

I promised myself in '77 that I'd grow my hair back in three years after I found a real job :) Hard, had to buy my first comb in years, and while my hair is growing, it's coming back in patches.

Garry I think you meant to address your last post to Air4ce not me. I can confirm I know nothing about your hair or lack of it.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 03, 2006, 15:34:56
Like,

Come on now...with the proper training (and mild sedation) I could make a GREAT AC Op!

 :blotto:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LIKELY on May 03, 2006, 16:29:59
Like,

Come on now...with the proper training (and mild sedation) I could make a GREAT AC Op!

 :blotto:

Me too Buddy, Me too!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 04, 2006, 01:25:01
Garry,

Any info on the Wpns side of AC Ops?  I read what you said about the ATC side, if you had details like that on the other side too..wow all my questions would be answered.

MRM
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 04, 2006, 18:27:30
Mud,

Sorry- plenty of stories, but it's all second hand.

PM Judy- she's a weapons gal, and if you're nice to her she'll fill you in on all the good stuff.

Cheers-Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 04, 2006, 18:54:23
Tks Garry, will do.

Mud
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on May 06, 2006, 19:34:13
Weapons is great!!!  So much better than the crappy ATC side.   ;D


When you go weapons, you definitely have to go to North Bay first.  I've never heard of anyone not doing their time in the Bay.  You have to do surveillance, then ID, and you could possibly do RADIL too, I think.  Then there's opportunity to move to weapons tech, which is a much more interesting and involved job.  You sit beside the controller and assist them during their missions with helping them get the information they need, coordinating with outside agencies (ATC, centres, etc.) and being a second pair of eyes on the scope. 

You could be posted to either Cold Lake or Bagotville to work in one of the tactical radar squadrons as a WASO (Weapons Assistant Sensor Operator... ?).  It's much more fun being in one of the deployable squadrons than in the Bay, in my opinion.

As for AWACS, I'm not exactly sure but I think you may be right - Sgt+.  Don't quote me on that. 

Check out this video:

http://dev.multimediaservices.ca/newmedia/controller/

It's for AEC, but you could still get a better idea of the differences between the three sides of the trade.  I wonder if there is an ACOp video like this one?

Any other questions feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on May 06, 2006, 20:00:30
It looks like the CF is updating their trade videos on the recruiting site. These two are much better and more informative than the previous ones. Thanks for the link.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: InterestedParty on May 06, 2006, 20:05:06
Kool video - where do I sign up?  ;D

cheers, mdh
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 06, 2006, 20:59:53
That's it for you Judy- I want my beer back.

( I have bought you a beer, haven't I??)

:)

Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 06, 2006, 23:34:17
Judy

Tks for the info and the links...the AC Op video is MUCH better than the one on the recruiting site...wow.  I saved it so I can watch it again...the Surv/ID stuff sounds interesting to me...and then again, so does the ATC.  Eanie...meanie...miny...moo... ;D

 MRM
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on May 06, 2006, 23:50:11
ah yes....SIDECAR.........

Mode 4 check anyone ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 07, 2006, 01:07:54
Well, the new video is great.  Now I realize that there is ATC/AD initially...and THEN weapons.  Makes sense. Judy the link you had actually has both the AEC and AC Op video's.  Both are very well done.  Tks

The question NOT answered on the video ( it is actually the one on the CF Recruiting website for AC Op too, a HUGE improvement from the last one... ) is...do you "pick" if you want ATC or AD...or how do they figure that out????  Draw straws?  Rock/paper/scissors?

 :blotto:

I am sure it is not that...just curious though...its like a secret or something...

MRM
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on May 07, 2006, 20:42:10
That's it for you Judy- I want my beer back.

( I have bought you a beer, haven't I??)

:)

Garry

I don't think so.  I think I should have bought you one though - it was your mug out! 


The question NOT answered on the video ( it is actually the one on the CF Recruiting website for AC Op too, a HUGE improvement from the last one... ) is...do you "pick" if you want ATC or AD...or how do they figure that out????  Draw straws?  Rock/paper/scissors?


Unfortunately, no.  You can put your preferences, but as we are all aware - the needs of the CF come first.

 It varies course to course too.  When I was in Cornwall, from the 3s course that graduated, all but one got weapons.  The other person got ATC because she had a service husband in Shearwater.  However, the course after was more of an even split, so it really varies.

I wouldn't say that surveillance is too thrilling of a job, but it's only temporary and you get to move up eventually.    If anyone is interested in talking directly to an AC Op, I can give you an email address.  I only know weapons people though.  We don't fraternize with the others on the dark side.

I would definitely choose weapons, but I'm biased!  ;D  ATC is for wieners.   
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on May 08, 2006, 02:39:06
We don't fraternize with the others on the dark side.

I would definitely choose weapons, but I'm biased!  ;D  ATC is for wieners.   

Excuse me!  ATC is the "enlightened side".  Well at least Tower Controllers are.  Terminal Controllers are just marginally better than Weapons Controllers.  There was a time that ATC failures were sent to AWC.  Now I think we make them go Nav. ;D

All biases aside, if I was joining today I would start with weapons.  Get one or two of those out of Canada postings or maybe even a tour on AWACS.  Later I would convert to ATC and settle down in a nice quiet tower somewhere.  Maybe Greenwood, no Comox.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 08, 2006, 13:12:46
My two cents on ATC Vs AWC:

Pro's and Con's to both divisions of the trade (they are the same trade).

If I was young and just starting out, no hesitation, I'd go AWC. Many more exciting/varied postings, with an operational atmoshpere. You'll be dragging your family around a little more, but my family survived their weird and wonderful postings just fine.

If you're ready to settle down, then ATC is most definately the way to go. Postings are longer, hours a little more reasonable, and fewer deployments. If you're not planning on staying in the Military for the long go, then you can transfer to NavCan and watch your salary jump 50% overnight.

Make no mistake, though- both trades have a lot of down time- the jets simply aren't flying as much as they used to.

Do yourself a favour- join the infantry as a private, do your three years, then remuster to AWC for the next 10, then slide over to ATC for the final run- make for a great career!

Cheers-Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 08, 2006, 21:50:08
Tks for all the info (everyone).  Been a big help...I might pass on the Cmbt Arms though...been thru enough of that for now... :blotto:

 :cheers:

Mud
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bullit on May 09, 2006, 08:11:15
here our newest video on the trade

enjoy!


http://dev.multimediaservices.ca/newmedia/controller/


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on May 09, 2006, 22:06:07

 Postings are longer, hours a little more reasonable, and fewer deployments.

Hours more reasonable??  It's shift work!

Granted - I've put in many a 12, 14, 15hr day in the past little while... but more often than not we're only working a standard work day. 

here our newest video on the trade

A little slow on the uptake there Bullit... I posted that video on Page 2.  You must be ATC, are you?  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 09, 2006, 23:06:18
I can see there is a bit of a rivalry between the different sides of the trades??

ATC is BETTER!  NO AD/Wpns is BETTER!

 :argument:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 10, 2006, 14:02:56
Mud,
There really is no "better"....simply small, minor, inconsequential differences, like:

ATC uses a plate and cutlery to eat. AWC uses their fingers.

ATC washes regularly, AWC cleans up if they happen to camp in a swamp (and to fall in).

ATC can add and subtract. AWC knows that when Mickey's hand is on the 4 it's time to go home.

There's more, but that's enough for now.

:)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on May 10, 2006, 16:09:24

ATC can add and subtract. AWC knows that when Mickey's hand is on the 4 it's time to go home.
:)

I thought that was the Air Force in general  ;D If that's not the case I may not sign up after all.  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 10, 2006, 16:25:32
 :rofl:

ok Garry THAT was funny...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on May 10, 2006, 19:29:25

ATC can add and subtract. AWC knows that when Mickey's hand is on the 4 it's time to go home.


Hahaha!!!!  I can't even attempt to defend myself - that's just funny.


Well... I guess I should give a half-assed attempt at defending AWC......

At least we have the opportunity to go into the swamps - we sort of like to pretend we're hardcore and we deploy twice a year into the woooods!  We don't stay in our cushy little terminal with the rest of the molepeople who have rickets from lack of natural light.

You guys are like Flowers in the Attic.


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 17thRecceSgt on May 10, 2006, 19:31:11
"ricketts"

 :rofl:

More!  More!  :o
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 20, 2006, 00:33:38
Defend AWC......

No need for defence...although as someone who spent 14 years in the Armoured Corps (77-91) I'd have to point out that our views on what constitutes "the swamps" and a "tough field deployment" are somewhat at odds :)

You still at 42 Judy? Get off yer butt and come over to the Sim sometime...Honk can bring you over if you like...I'll buy you a coffee.

Cheers-Garry
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on May 20, 2006, 08:56:25
No need for defence...although as someone who spent 14 years in the Armoured Corps (77-91) I'd have to point out that our views on what constitutes "the swamps" and a "tough field deployment" are somewhat at odds :)


That's why I said ....


 - we sort of like to pretend we're hardcore and we deploy twice a year into the woooods! 


:) 

I'm in Bagotville now, working at 12 ER - got posted here in April.  Couldn't be happier.  Well, except that now I don't get a coffee!! :)

I'm coming back to CL for MF Period 3.  *Shudder*  The exercise itself will be fun, but I just left there! I don't want to go back!

You're working in the sims now? Sounds great.  Do you enjoy it?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on May 20, 2006, 11:58:25
Sorry- been married for 25 years, female generated sarcasm goes right over my head :)

Flag is a hoot- yer gonna have a ball. One of the last places you can control large packages- 100 aircraft in one area can be..interesting.

Besides, you'll have 600 fighter jocks around to listen to after hours! (no, they don't need you to talk :)

"How do you know a guys a fighter pilot? Give him 30 seconds-he'll tell you!"...LOL

Sims great- regular hours (night shifts were getting to me), interesting work....but a little too much AWC for my liking :)

Cheers
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on July 12, 2006, 18:39:24
Looking for recent intel. on upcoming course dates for the AC Op QL3 in Cornwall.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on July 12, 2006, 18:42:19
I just got the answer on that one the other day for myself.

Quote
The next QL3 - 0602 is from 8 Sept 2006 until 20 Dec 2006. 

What I am still trying to find out though, is how many are loaded on each course, and what is the number loaded on this course so far, as well as when the course after this one starts.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on July 13, 2006, 00:16:28
I just got the answer on that one the other day for myself.

What I am still trying to find out though, is how many are loaded on each course, and what is the number loaded on this course so far, as well as when the course after this one starts.

Thanks for the quick response, please post any more info. you find out on the course loading, next date.

Now only if I can get through the recruiting process in two months (along with my verification of prior service and BMQ bypass) and get loaded on that course.  :crybaby:

Hopefully there's another course in the new year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: eliminator on October 10, 2006, 00:23:41
Does anyone know if there are opportunities for Aerospace Control Officers? (besides desk jobs)  I heard they just sent some folks to Cornwall at the Aerospace School for some training (FACs?)...Not sure if there were any officers.

The Americans have guys called Combat Controllers, but I cant imagine we'll ever make it to that level. So, can an AEC officer get anything close to "front line" action with the Special Ops Regiment?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 10, 2006, 21:51:43
Does anyone know if there are opportunities for Aerospace Control Officers? (besides desk jobs)  I heard they just sent some folks to Cornwall at the Aerospace School for some training (FACs?)...Not sure if there were any officers.

eliminator - Their are many opportunities for ACOs, most are desk jobs at aero droms but their are other desks to get like desks on ship...or in the air in an AWAC...C130....and so on, but yes just a desk.

FACs no that is for combat arms mainly Artillery Officers (some tankers and Inf) and some pilots who have to drop the stuff. Cornwall is were they train civilian Air Traffic Controllers not FACs and the military positions that do the same task. By the way all FACs are Officers althought senior NCOs are trained the same they are considered FAC assitants.   

The Americans have guys called Combat Controllers, but I cant imagine we'll ever make it to that level. So, can an AEC officer get anything close to "front line" action with the Special Ops Regiment?

eliminator - We are at that level, remuster Artillery officer and you will most likely be a FAC and get to the front line. I would assume the Special Ops Regiment has thier contingent of FACs like everyone else.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: rampage800 on October 10, 2006, 22:40:47
 3rd Horseman

 Sorry dude but I gotta dispel this myth, not all FACs are officers, as a matter of fact there are probably more NCO FACs than there are officers doing it. As for the Arty thing, yea most FACs come from the arty right now but the other Cbt Arms trades are slowly getting some of their guys on crse too, may not be to far from now that maybe FACing becomes a primary job in the CF rather than a secondary task.
 As for the SF guys, I think they're doing their own CAS thing but I think they've adopted the US name for their guys (JTACs)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 10, 2006, 23:27:54
rampage,

   If you read my post I did say that some FACs were Snr NCOs. I don't have the latest numbers at my hand but when I departed the CF a few years back and my past jobs as a FAC instructor and FAC SME, I can tell you that their were always more Officers trained to be FACs then Snr NCOs. And that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position. As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army. The Artillery school is the lead agency in the Army to teach and to provide FACs. As for the future and a primary roll for full time FACs as a trade into itself I doubt it, it has always been a primary roll of the Arty Officer who was in the fire support position to provide that and I suggest it will remain that way. On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: eliminator on October 11, 2006, 00:43:15
FYI, here's a short video of USAF Combat Controllers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty09I9ZqJ_Q

And some random info:



U.S. Air Force Fact Sheet
COMBAT CONTROLLER
 
 Mission

Air Force Special Operations Command's combat controllers are Battlefield Airmen assigned to special tactics squadrons. They are trained special operations forces and certified Federal Aviation Administration air traffic controllers.

Their mission is to deploy undetected into combat and hostile environments to establish assault zones or airfields, while simultaneously conducting air traffic control, fire support, command and control, direct action, counter-terrorism, foreign internal defense, humanitarian assistance and special reconnaissance in the joint arena.

Combat Control Commandos

Assigned to Air Force Special Operations Command, combat controllers join forces with trained specialists to form highly trained Special Tactics teams. Their motto, "First There," reaffirms the combat controller’s commitment to undertaking the most dangerous missions behind enemy lines by leading the way for other forces to follow.

Training

Combat controllers are among the most highly trained personnel in the U. S. Air Force. They complete the same technical training as all air traffic controllers, and  maintain air traffic control qualification skills throughout their careers.

Many qualify and maintain currency in joint terminal attack control procedures, in addition to other special operations skills.  Their 35-week training and unique mission skills earn them the right to wear the scarlet beret.

• Combat Control Orientation Course, Lackland Air Force Base, Texas
This two-week orientation course focuses on sports physiology, nutrition, basic exercises, combat control history and fundamentals.

• Combat Control Operator Course, Keesler AFB, Miss.
This 15 and a half-week course teaches aircraft recognition and performance, air navigation aids, weather, airport traffic control, flight assistance service, communication procedures, conventional approach control, radar procedures and air traffic rules. This is the same course that all Air Force air traffic controllers attend and is the core skill of a combat controller's job.

• U.S. Army Airborne School, Fort Benning, Ga. -- Trainees learn the basic parachuting skills required to infiltrate an objective area by static line airdrop in a three-week course.

• U.S. Air Force Basic Survival School, Fairchild AFB, Wash. -- This two and a half-week course teaches basic survival techniques for remote areas. Instruction includes principles, procedures, equipment and techniques, which enable individuals to survive, regardless of climatic conditions or unfriendly environments and return home.

• Combat Control School, Pope AFB, N.C. -- This 13-week course provides final combat controller qualifications. Training includes physical training, small unit tactics, land navigation, communications, assault zones, demolitions, fire support and field operations including parachuting. At the completion of this course, each graduate is awarded the 3-skill level (journeymen), scarlet beret and CCT flash.

• Special Tactics Advanced Skills Training, Hurlburt Field, Fla.  -- Advanced Skills Training is a 12-to-15-month program for newly assigned combat controller operators. AST produces mission-ready operators for the Air Force and U.S. Special Operations Command. The AST schedule is broken down into four phases: water, ground, employment and full mission profile. The course tests the trainee’s personal limits through demanding mental and physical training. Combat controllers also attend the following schools during AST:

       U.S. Army Military Free Fall Parachutist School, Fort Bragg, N.C., and Yuma Proving Grounds, Ariz. -- This course instructs free fall parachuting procedures. The five-week course provides wind tunnel training, in-air instruction focusing on student stability, aerial maneuvers, air sense, parachute opening procedures and parachute canopy control.

       U.S. Army Combat Divers School, Panama City, Fla.  -- Trainees become combat divers, learning to use scuba and closed circuit diving equipment to covertly infiltrate denied areas. The four-week course provides training to depths of 130 feet, stressing development of maximum underwater mobility under various operating conditions.

      U.S. Navy Underwater Egress Training, Pensacola Naval Air Station, Fla. -- This one-day course teaches how to safely escape from an aircraft that has ditched in the water. Instruction includes principles, procedures and techniques necessary to get out of a sinking aircraft.

History

Army pathfinders originated in 1943 out of need for accurate airdrops during airborne campaigns of World War II.  These pathfinders preceded main assault forces into objective areas to provide weather information and visual guidance to inbound aircraft through the use of high-powered lights, flares and smoke pots.

When the Air Force became a separate service,  Air Force pathfinders, later called combat control teams, were activated in 1953  to provide navigational aids and air traffic control for a growing Air Force.  In the Vietnam War, combat controllers helped assure mission safety and expedited air traffic flow during countless airlifts. Combat controllers also flew as forward air guides in support of indigenous forces in Laos and Cambodia.

Combat controllers continue to be the "First There" when they are called upon to participate in international emergencies and humanitarian relief efforts.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MJP on October 11, 2006, 12:39:10
rampage,

   If you read my post I did say that some FACs were Snr NCOs. I don't have the latest numbers at my hand but when I departed the CF a few years back and my past jobs as a FAC instructor and FAC SME, I can tell you that their were always more Officers trained to be FACs then Snr NCOs. And that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position. As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army. The Artillery school is the lead agency in the Army to teach and to provide FACs. As for the future and a primary roll for full time FACs as a trade into itself I doubt it, it has always been a primary roll of the Arty Officer who was in the fire support position to provide that and I suggest it will remain that way. On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants.

There are quite a few Snr NCO FACs that are non gunners.  I don't know the numbers regarding officer and NCOs so I'll stay out of that one.  But I'm pretty sure that the Snr NCOs that are trained in are not assistants to an officer while conducting runs, they can be I'm sure, but from what I've seen and experienced they don't.  My WO controlled several B-1s and A-10s overseas in multiple TICs without having a FAC qualified officer around to oversee him.  Usually the FOO/FAC party we had was too busy bringing the 155s in, so at times it was the FAC qualified NCO bringing in the big bombs.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on October 11, 2006, 17:38:40
I haven't FAC'd since '89, so can't comment on "today's" world.

I was a Sgt, airborne FAC, and taught on the FAC course.

I quit counting runs at 1,000.

And for you Arty types, I was a designated observer. (and fired Div artillery, on my call)

I was never a helper, aid, assistant, or anything else- I was the FAC. (and the FOO, and the MFC, and owned the direct fire weapons during the runs. BTW, none of that 2 min sterile tgt area for the run poop either- we had 10 seconds sterile over the target area for the low level run)

FAC was taught at AGOS in Gagetown, course was run by the G3 Air, and supported primarily by US assets. CF-5's and Hornets filled out the rest.

Never thought much of the idea of having anyone other than a combat arms guy do the runs. Most of the air force guys that I saw were wasted in the field- why take a fighter pilot and waste all of those pilot skills sitting in the mud? More to the point, most of them had to be baby-sat in the field- waste of time for us, and waste of resources for the Air Force.

I can catagorically state that there is NO reason that most anyone can not do the job- it is not rocket science. And since the new gear came on board, I honestly think the skill sets/required abilities have decreased exponentially.

Rant off.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MCG on October 12, 2006, 00:26:21
that Snr NCOs are now used in the Assistant position not the lead position.
As MJP pointed out, that is not how we rolled in Kandahar.  Officers & Sr NCO, Arty & Infantry.  All operated as the lead.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 12, 2006, 00:40:44
MCG,

    Good new info since I was in the game in 02. In 94 rules changed and only Officers were lead (I did not agree with that decision), previous to that all were lead. I guess things have changed since I last taught in 02. Guess that is why this forum is so cool. I think now that I reflect across the thread the originator was talking about Path Finders when he discussed US combat controllers? :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: eliminator on October 12, 2006, 01:13:26
FAC Course:

Joining Instructions – Forward Air Control

The aim of this course is to prepare selected Officers and Senior NCMs for employment as Forward Air Controllers – Ground (FAC) to the level of Limited-Combat-Ready.

Duration

The course will last 32 training days; this does not include weekends, holidays and non-training (administrative) days.

Content

Performance Objective 101 – Operate in a Field Environment
Performance Objective 102 – Use FAC Equipment
Performance Objective 103 – Plan CAS Missions
Performance Objective 104 – Conduct Low Level CAS Missions
Performance Objective 105 – Conduct High Level CAS Missions
Performance Objective 106 – Conduct Night CAS Missions

Prerequisites

Officer – Members must be a minimum rank of Capt and MOC qualified to the operationally functional point.

NCM – Members must be a minimum rank of Sgt.

Have successfully completed the CF EXPRES test or Land Force BFT within the last year

Have an English language profile IAW NATO STANAG 6001 (3) in English of CCC

Hold a level II security clearance

Be recommended by the unit commanding officer

Pre-reading/Threshold Knowledge Test

There is no formal pre-reading or testing. However, there is a wealth of knowledge available on the Din and Civilian Internet about Close Air Support and Forward Air Controlling. Students may wish to research aircraft capabilities and air-to-ground ordinance for both fixed wing and helicopter gun ships.

Students will be required to use the PLGR GPS during the course. If you have not used it before some pre-learning on how to enter a waypoint, how to find a direction and distance to a target location from a known waypoint and how to convert Grid coordinates to Latitudinal and Longitudinal coordinates will help.

Students will be required to fire basic Artillery missions in support of CAS missions. Knowing how to conduct a support arms call for fire for area neutralization and to conduct a mark would be helpful. Including using binoculars or a laser-range-finder to adjust artillery.

Students will have to be able to find target locations using a prismatic compass, 1:50,000 map and using a variety of laser range finders. Understanding how to do this quickly and efficiently would help the student.

Kit required

Exercises will be tactical and may extend overnight. All field equipment is required (LCV, helmet, appropriate ablution, air mattress, ground sheet, bivie bag, rucksack and sleeping bag. The current Radio-bags for the UHF PRC 113 are very uncomfortable. It is therefore suggested that students bring their issued Day-pack to carry the radio.

PT gear for both indoor and outdoor will be required.

Storage space in student quarters is very limited so students are asked to bring a limited amount of civilian clothing and non-military items.

If you have a civilian GPS you may wish to bring it, as long as it is capable of using either Grid or Lat/Long coordinates and has a +/- 10-meter accuracy. Otherwise you will be issued with a military PLGR GPS.

DEU uniform with parade boots and shoes are not required.

ID Card and ID discs required.

Students will be issued a GPS, NVG’s, Laser Range Finder, Radio and other equipment required for the course upon arrival in Camp Gagetown.

Autobiography

Students are required to submit an autobiography, in English, on the first day of course. The text should include a brief summary of the student’s involvement with the military to date, family background, education, personal strengths and weaknesses and goals for the course. Also include if you are projecting an operational deployment as a FAC within the next 1-3 years and if your unit intends to allow you to conduct FAC continuation trg.

First Parade

Prior to the commencement of the course and upon arrival in Camp Gagetown during a weekday between 0730 and 1600hrs the student is to report to building J7, Artillery School orderly room. Upon arrival in Camp Gagetown during off-duty or after hours students are to report to main entrance of J7, Duty Accommodations were they would be issued their room key and ration card.

On the first day of the Course, students will report to the FAC Course classroom, E219 at 0730hrs. Room E219 is in the Artillery School Section of building J7. It is located on the second floor in the Southern portion of the building, directly beside the Artillery Ammo and Equipment room. Students will be met by a course representative and commence Artillery School in-clearance.

Transportation

DND transportation will normally not be available for students between their accommodations and classroom. Students who are able to drive a POMV are encouraged to do so.

All students are asked to bring valid 404’s, as there are often civilian patterned vehicles rented for the course. The sharing of driver duties is often required for some portions of the course.

Leave

Students are not normally permitted to take leave during the course. In the case where a statutory holiday occurs during training students are allowed to take leave within the Maritime Provinces (less Newfoundland) except on a case-by-case basis.

Medical

Depending on CF 18 Hornet 2-seat-ship availability, some students will get a flight as part of their training in order to understand what the pilot is required to do during Close Air Support (CAS) missions. Students are required to have a signed medical evaluation from a flight surgeon or equivalent Land Force Doctor stating that the student is physically capable of riding in a high performance aircraft. 

Augmentee Staff Information

Augmentation staff are asked to follow the same reporting procedures as outlined for students as stated above.

Augmentation staff will require all field equipment, including Tactical Vest and helmet for the course. Rucksack complete with sleeping bag and air mattress is also required in addition to appropriate environmental gear. The current Radio-bags for the UHF PRC 113 are very uncomfortable. It is therefore suggested that staff bring their issued Day-pack to carry the radio.

Please ensure you have a valid DND 404 driver license for operating civilian patterned vehicles, as there are occasions when the course will have rental vehicles.

School Point of Contact

Any questions with regards to the course of these instructions should be addressed via email or call.......
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Journeyman on October 12, 2006, 10:13:43
I think now that I reflect across the thread the originator was talking about Path Finders when he discussed US combat controllers?

US Air Force combat controllers deploy into hostile environments to establish assault LZs or airfields. There, they conduct air traffic control, JTAC, (gee, FOO/FAC ops and they're not even Arty officers), airspace and airdrome command and control, and support foreign internal defense. They must be FAA-certified air traffic controllers.

Army Pathfinders deploy into a DZ/LZ, by any number of means, in advance of the main body of airborne troops in order to set up navigation aids to pin-point the DZ/LZ. They provide winds on the ground, clear obstacles, establish ORVs, and secure the immediate area.

I suspect that because the thread originator mentioned Combat Controllers several times, he was discussing.....Combat Controllers, and not Pathfinders. To the best of my knowledge, neither group has recieved top-secret awards, topped off with sherry, tucked away in their pockets and never to be spoken of again.....but then again, I'm neither Combat Control or Patrol Pathfinder, so any uninformed thoughts & reflections there would be outside of my lane.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Strike on October 12, 2006, 10:30:52
Quote
from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF.

Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Technoviking on October 12, 2006, 11:03:48
Leave

Students are not normally permitted to take leave during the course. In the case where a statutory holiday occurs during training students are allowed to take leave within the Maritime Provinces (less Newfoundland) except on a case-by-case basis.
Slightly OT, but the province of Newfoundland and Labrador is NOT a Maritime province.

OK, not slightly OT, but WAY OT.  Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled thread....
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 12, 2006, 20:57:15
Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.

Obviously no one said they couldn't.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 12, 2006, 21:11:24
US Air Force combat controllers deploy into hostile environments to establish assault LZs or airfields. There, they conduct air traffic control, JTAC, (gee, FOO/FAC ops and they're not even Arty officers) airspace and airdrome command and control, and support foreign internal defense. They must be FAA-certified air traffic controllers.

Army Pathfinders deploy into a DZ/LZ, by any number of means, in advance of the main body of airborne troops in order to set up navigation aids to pin-point the DZ/LZ. They provide winds on the ground, clear obstacles, establish ORVs, and secure the immediate area.

I suspect that because the thread originator mentioned Combat Controllers several times, he was discussing.....Combat Controllers, and not Pathfinders.

True, but I suspect that he was looking for the Canadian equivalent, I don't know what that is, I'm suspected that Path Finder would have some of those duties. I am not a Path Finder so I to would be out of my lane commenting on it.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on October 13, 2006, 12:34:09
I (foolishly) turned down a Combat Controllers course in the early '90's. I had no idea what it was, just didn't feel like leaving home (again) for a course (again). Too bad.... On the upside, if it was offered to a Canadian once, maybe  the option is still there....

Got to know a few ex-combat controllers through an ATC website awhile back, and the job sounded like a hoot. Yes, our pathfinders can do some of the CC jobs, primarily as it relates to Helo ops. However, the CC job is way more involved- basically, they go into a captured airfield and bring it back to flight ops. Failing that, they'll find a relatively flat and straight section of highway and turn that into an airport. Not just a helo pad, nor even a VFR (bright sunlight ops) airfield, but a no-fooling all inclusive IFR (bad weather) airfield capable of handling transport aircrat.

No mean feat.

On top of the obvious Air Traffic Control skills, they have a huge logistical ability as well. Throw in that they're trained to fight for, and to maintain that piece of ground, and you have a very valuable resource.

Good bunch of guys, too.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Journeyman on October 13, 2006, 18:06:40
Good bunch of guys, too.
.....and a VERY tough bunch to keep up with, beer-wise  :cheers:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: eliminator on October 13, 2006, 18:51:49
Speaking of Canadian Combat Controllers, I found this pic on the net. Not sure if this Canadian is a true "combat controller" or just a FAC, since the caption was done by the USAF.

"A member of the Canadian Combat Controller biathlon team clears his weapon after firing during the biathlon competition at Airlift Rodeo '96 on June 24, 1996. Airlift Rodeo '96 is the United States Transportation Command's tanker/airlift competition which tests the flight and ground skills of aircrews as well as the related skills of combat control, security police, aerial port, aeromedical evacuation, and maintenance team members. Crews from the U.S. and nine other countries are participating in the competition held this year at McChord Air Force Base, Wash. DoD photo by Senior Airman Jeffrey Allen, U.S. Air Force. "

http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jul1996/960624-F-2171A-005.html
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: rampage800 on October 13, 2006, 21:05:00
3rd Horseman

I did read your post, even read it a second time and guess what, you were wrong then too. Heres some stuff you can hoist on board because things have obviously changed since you left;
-they are training more Snr NCOs(and sometimes Jacks) as FACs than offrs, probably about 3:1, reason being NCOs are in the units longer than offrs
-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)
-they are finding it too hard to coord and control A/C and arty at the same time especially when a lot of the stuff is Danger Close, that is why if it was made a primary job (not trade) it would make things much easier and it already is being looked at
-this whole FAC assistant thing baffles me and I'm calling BS, why would you put someone on the same course as an offr but when it was all done just make them an assistant ? You can believe me when I tell you that NCOs are calling in A/C right now in A-stan and some aren't even qual'd never mine being just an assistant

Well thats about it dude, your probably not going to like what I just wrote but i'm telling you whats going on right now, not used to go on or whatever.....
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: suraj216 on October 14, 2006, 00:46:38
I am planning to join the Air Force as an aerospace controller in the very near future. 

I havent talked to a recruit about my contract but length is going to be the first issue (of course). 

B: If I do not stay with the CF what job prospects can a former military aerospace controller expect in the civilian world? 

I live in the USA where air traffic controllers make an average of USD$100k/yr. 

Q: Regulations are different so how do military controllers get work in Canada as civilians at airports? 

Thanks for your help guys.  I look forward to returning to Canada.  This place is dirty...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on October 14, 2006, 01:44:45
Nothing like dragging out a 2 year old thread PLUS changing the name of it, but since you did, here are some answers and/or comments for you.


I am planning to join the Air Force as an aerospace controller in the very near future. 
Plan all you want, but until you get to Canada and apply, and then see where that takes you...don't hold your breath.


I havent talked to a recruit about my contract but length is going to be the first issue (of course). 
What kind of issue is that going to be?


B: If I do not stay with the CF what job prospects can a former military aerospace controller expect in the civilian world? 
(most people label questions with sequential numbers or letters, but whatever...)  If you are already planning on what to do with the education and training that the military spends time and money on you, then save them that time and money and stay civilian.


I live in the USA where air traffic controllers make an average of USD$100k/yr. 
This ones an easy one....then STAY in the USA!!


Q: Regulations are different so how do military controllers get work in Canada as civilians at airports? 
They don't.  Hense the reason why we are MILITARY and they are CIVILIAN.  And this question seems to be on the same line as your first one.  Make a choice here....

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Technoviking on October 14, 2006, 08:58:47

-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)
To be pedantic, the role of the Field Artillery is "to assist in the defeat of the enemy with indirect fire as part of the all-arms battle." (B-GL-300-07/FP-001 "Firepower")
"Indirect Fire":Fire delivered at a target which cannot be seen by the aimer." (from AAP - 6 (U))

Does this include aircraft delivered munitions?  I would say "yes, sometimes"
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: suraj216 on October 14, 2006, 11:53:03

(most people label questions with sequential numbers or letters, but whatever...)  If you are already planning on what to do with the education and training that the military spends time and money on you, then save them that time and money and stay civilian.


oops...i tried to bold the Q.  not everyone stays military their whole life so does anyone have a clue what civilian air traffic controllers make in Canada or will i end up looking for something completely new to do if I leave the military?  I guess I am holding my breath on the aerospace controller thing but it seems like a great skill in todays world (in high demand south of  :cdn:)...and if it all works out Id like to try it in the civilian world too.  I dont want to think thats wasting military time and money. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on October 14, 2006, 12:20:47
Considering this is a forum where the majority of the people are military, you might have trouble with your question.  However, for some reason, I am feeling nice this morning, or something.  Here is a site where you should be able to get more information: http://www.navcanada.ca/.  Next time though, why don't you do some researching on your own too.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on October 14, 2006, 19:56:40
I actually got to take the FAC course back in the spring of 03 and I am AEC.  The plan was for me to go to the school that summer as a FAC instructor.  At that time I think the course was being run out of the Infantry School and there were two AEC officers there.  One was the G3 AIR for CTC and the second was an instructor on the FAC course.  Anyway long story short, I only got to do the theory portion of the course due to time constraints and before I could return to take the practical portion someone else was given my posting (Damn!).  On the course there was probably twice as many Sr NCOs as there were officers (mind you this was only one course, so my example isn't proof of anything).  Of the officers on the course, two were AECs and the rest were in the artillery.  They told me when they returned to their units they would be employed as FOO/FACs.  The Sr NCOs were either in the infantry or in the artillery.  I've heard that the course has since been redone with many improvements made to make it more relevant.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Strike on October 14, 2006, 20:03:13
Quote
Quote from: Strike on October 12, 2006, 09:30:52
Then your friends are misinformed.  Any "operator" can be a FAC/JTAC provided they have the required credentials.


Obviously no one said they couldn't.

No, but your "friends" said that the SF controllers were all ARTY, which is completely WRONG!

Horse, I suggest you step away from this, as there are more than a few points here that negate what you have brought to the table.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Garry on October 14, 2006, 21:19:33
Have to admit that I shared the opinion of many here: if you're going to join the Military, don't do it to get training and then leave.

However, I was talking to a few old guys, and they were quite comfortable with just this very thing. The Military has contract lengths for a reason. Besides, the training our guys get is good- if you stay in Canada to use them, Canada as a whole benefits from the Military training. Win- win overall.

The training you get in the Military as an ATC is universal. The rules that NavCan use are exactly the same as ours- we use the same Manual of Operations (MANOPS), and everything we do is interchangeable. There are a few rules we have that NavCan doesn't (reduced separation for fighters primarily) but everything else is the same.

The big difference is most of our operations are Terminal control. (we work within 60 miles of the airport, mostly involved with landing and departing aircraft) NavCan does this as well, but most of their work is Enroute control (moving aircraft long distances between airports). The concept and control are two entirely different beasts, with similiar skill sets and, again, the exact same rules.

USA control is virtually identical to Canadian control. You can cross train from Canada to the US, but it is a much harder transition than from Military to Civilian (Canadian)  control.

NavCan is hurting big time for controllers, primarily IFR enroute. (They must be, they tried to hire me)

Pay is between 100- 140K, depending on what level you work at (the more traffic you move, the higher pay. Supervisory positions are open to ex-Mil as well)

The traffic that we move is totally different. Military is all pop-up (no forecast), and often there'll be circuit work (take-off, land, repeat) I've yet to have a large recovery that didn't include an emergency or 6. By the way- ever seen the movie "pushing tin"? They get all excited when they have 9 aircraft lined up on final. I've had over 40 lined up on final, with another 60 coming in. I've also been so bored that I'm amazed I'm still here. Feast or famine......

Stress is self induced in my books... no stress in ATC. (you know, since I left the Army NOT ONCE have I been shot at!) However, you MUST be able to think fast, and you can NEVER, EVER give up. You give up, and people die- simple as that. You make a mistake, and people die. You WILL be overwhelmed from time to time- trick is to not let fear enter your voice, and keep on swinging- you will get your nose back above the water, and you will recover all your aircraft. ...and you will say "nothing to it". :)

As before, good job- but for the old guys. If you're young, go AWC...better yet, go Infantry. Live a little, then when you're ready to grow up, go ATC. It's challenging, but you're home lots.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: stefatc on October 14, 2006, 23:15:46
I'm a BSTAND in Trenton and I can tell you that the job is awesome...! Before beeing in the air force I was in the army! Everything that i could read it's true but I just want to tell you that if you go to the AD side, don't expect to go to the USA, Germanie or somewhere eles because you'll be the youngest guy in the new trade.

Don't forget that in an airfield it's the same you don't have de choice of your posting even if you talk with your carreer manager.

one of the bad side of this trade is I have a lot of friend in this trade but a few in the same base as me!

Stefatc
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: suraj216 on October 15, 2006, 00:14:49

However, I was talking to a few old guys, and they were quite comfortable with just this very thing. The Military has contract lengths for a reason. Besides, the training our guys get is good- if you stay in Canada to use them, Canada as a whole benefits from the Military training. Win- win overall.


ive read a lot of this site and im glad you saw this thread again.  i was feeling the same way when i mentioned leaving the air force to do "the same thing" for civilian airports.  the detail in your post is great for me and thanks a bunch for the time and effort you put into it.  again, thanks for your post.  i look forward to meeting my recruit in toronto.  after i cross the border i might drive straight there no stops.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 15, 2006, 19:09:42
No, but your "friends" said that the SF controllers were all ARTY, which is completely WRONG!

Horse, I suggest you step away from this, as there are more than a few points here that negate what you have brought to the table.

If your going to quote get it right.

"On the SF guys I don't know but from what my Arty and Air friends tell me Arty Officers and Snr NCOs fill that roll in the SF. The last FAC course I taught on had two SF Snr NCOs gunners on it and they were being trained as FAC assistants."

  On the subject of FAC from 02 to present I will agree with you I am not in the know (just to be clear I never said I was), and as such have nil comment on what is actually going on. I do though have a valid position on the pre 02 issues and would suspect that not allot has changed in 3 years but again I don't know. If you have the current knowledge then I would be pleased to hear how the CF now employs its FACs. Obviously I would hope that that knowledge comes from a FAC instructor or senior FAC who would know what is going on.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: peaches on October 15, 2006, 19:14:46
I am an AEC officer, an I know for a fact there is at least 1 AEC FAC officer with CSOR, because I know him......... :cdn:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Technoviking on October 15, 2006, 19:34:13
My former neighbour, an armoured captain of the 12e RBC, was trained FAC in the 90s.  Just to add to the pre-02 part.  Unless you meant to say that you don't know from 1902-present re: FAC
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 15, 2006, 19:37:19
3rd Horseman

I did read your post, even read it a second time and guess what, you were wrong then too. Heres some stuff you can hoist on board because things have obviously changed since you left;
-they are training more Snr NCOs(and sometimes Jacks) as FACs than offrs, probably about 3:1, reason being NCOs are in the units longer than offrs
-the primary roll of the artillery(offrs included) is to provide indirect FS, CAS is a secondary duty(see next point)
Quote
3rd Horseman current insert - This is one I have to comment on at this point...if they are having this problem (which I am not sure is valid) in coord then it is an issue of expierence.
-they are finding it too hard to coord and control A/C and arty at the same time especially when a lot of the stuff is Danger Close, that is why if it was made a primary job (not trade) it would make things much easier and it already is being looked at
-this whole FAC assistant thing baffles me and I'm calling BS, why would you put someone on the same course as an offr but when it was all done just make them an assistant ? You can believe me when I tell you that NCOs are calling in A/C right now in A-stan and some aren't even qual'd never mine being just an assistant

Well thats about it dude, your probably not going to like what I just wrote but i'm telling you whats going on right now, not used to go on or whatever.....

Rampage,
         No I'm not disliking what you have said, discussion is meant to learn from. Fill out your profile so I know what your level of experience is in particular in the FAC world and I will be pleased to respond to you at the appropriate level.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 15, 2006, 19:46:32
My former neighbour, an armoured captain of the 12e RBC, was trained FAC in the 90s.  Just to add to the pre-02 part.  Unless you meant to say that you don't know from 1902-present re: FAC

Obviously, I did not say tankers were not FACs, since I taught some of them and did my training with some of them...read my past post quoted as follows "As for the non Arty positions yes ever course had positions for FACs from Inf and Tanks but thy were limited as the primary job of the Arty is and was to provide FAC support to the Army."
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Technoviking on October 15, 2006, 20:15:29
His role as FAC was due to his employment in Recce Sqn.
Also, several infantryman have been trained FAC.  Not just the current Recce Pl dudes, but also (naturally), the mortar platoon MFCs.
Also, in 2001 (or so) the FAC 'be all' (not SME with the FAS) was an air force major.  Ironic, I suppose, but there you go.

FWIW
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 15, 2006, 20:30:28
von Grognard,

   You are correct in late 01 early 02 the Air FAC SME was an Air Force Maj. He was not a fighter pilot but an Air Weapons guy which was a change. He was the Capt acting as the G3 Air at CTC HQ previous to that. He replaced an acting SME FAC Air that was a Capt helo pilot if I remember right.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: rampage800 on October 16, 2006, 14:45:07
3 Horse

Maybe you've heard of a guy named Col King, if your not going to take my word for it

Quote
Fire Support Coordination. Fire support coordination using multiple air, indirect and direct assets should be well practiced at sub-unit level, as a minimum. Some company commanders felt overwhelmed at certain stages of the battle by the number of enablers that were pushed down to support the fight.
I don't think its experience or lack thereof, its the fact than when you have UAVs, TUAVs, A/H, A/C and Arty all in the same air space or within close proximity it gets a little (lot) hectic

My next point.

Quote
  Another point that will be analyzed by the Lessons Learned team is the employment of the FAC and FOO in the same vehicle while both arty fire and CAS missions are being conducted. To ensure that the call for fire is more effective in the future, the FAC and FOO may need to be employed in separate vehicles.

Like I said, the last point is already being discussed and looked at in places higher than this. My profile well I'll get to it one day but I do have a bit of a schmick about whats going on (currently) in the FAC world both in Canada and in A-stan.

Still learning how to insert quotes and stuff on here as well so if comes out all crazy, just bare with me

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: George Wallace on October 16, 2006, 17:41:08
Did those 'Edits' help?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Strike on October 16, 2006, 20:28:21
Quote
If you have the current knowledge then I would be pleased to hear how the CF now employs its FACs.

Given that my issues towards your statement have to do with the composition of those "FACs" within the SF comunity, it is obvious (I would hope) that to discuss anything wrt to their numbers and EXACT composition would be inappropriate and unprofessional.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 3rd Horseman on October 16, 2006, 20:56:14
Strike,

  Agreed, but we can be generic :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Rider Pride on October 16, 2006, 22:35:50
Too bad this discussion topic started with a question about air controllers in the SF context, a topic which I am absolutely certian nobody on this site currently is experenced to competantly discuss. Take your discussion elsewhere if you can not answer the original question.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Arron on November 08, 2006, 10:10:00
I see this thread is a little old, but I would love to weigh in on it.  I have been an ACOP for over 6 years now, mostly on the AD/AWC side with 2 tours in the Sinai drinking obsessively while doing flight advisory.

If you like outcan postings then Ad is the side to go (I cant believe nobody posted some spots to go) including but not limited to Florida, California, Colorado Springs, Denver, Washington, NY, Germany, Alaska and a few other smaller spots.  The ATC side is all of the airbases in Canada.  AD/AWC side is more "operational" orientated and ATC more work orientated ( neither is meant badly).  Aside from going PAR, you can switch between ATC/AD(AWC) throughout your career.  The job can be great, and I have found the job to be very interesting, I guess eye of the beholder type of thing.  Some find it boring, but that 2% of the time that poop hits the fan for real (not some exercise crap) it can be a lot of fun.  But remember like other things, its a lot of normal operations (which is good!) most of the time.  Good thing there are other positions you can do (Tracking, Ident, Radil, weapons, terminal, ground, tower assistant and on and on) to keep things changing and new.  Its a huge trade, no 2 postings are alike at all.

We have a lot of army remusters.... Some have a lot of problems with the switch, for those who are still to "army" orientated and wound up.  If a hard-core army person remusters to ACOP or even air force in general take some riddlin to help your adjustment be a little easier.  If you think something is stupid in the AF, just go with it, 94% of the time there is a reason to it the other 6% its being made up (vs my army experiences that opposite with about 6% reason, 94% made up :-).

AD(AWC) side usually does start off in North Bay (best 6 years of my life!), but like I said you can switch back and forth.  AWACS slots are MCpl and up (keen MCpl's).  As well some positions you may find you may have a lot of responsibility and a very very very very sensitive security clearance dealing with things that could make your skin tingle.

Great trade, both sides have pros and cons (as well PAR is spec pay, the rest is not) and unless you go par, your not tied down to one specific career advancement.  If you like the above you will enjoy it.  For me talking to a pilot during a emergency either from a tower position or a NORAD related position, gets my blood going!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on November 08, 2006, 10:16:00
Arron, thanks for some more background on the trade.  Any and all is appreciated.

For others, the next 3's course starts 8 Jan 07.  Just waiting on my offer message....any day now.....lol.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NickRees on January 04, 2007, 15:35:12
Ok, so the next course starts monday the 8th, anyone know the one after that??
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 04, 2007, 17:10:00
Sometime in March, with the next one after that supposedly starting in the summer.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: commo_dude on January 05, 2007, 20:28:40
Did you get your AC OP offer?

If so, when do you start?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 05, 2007, 20:36:58
Did you get your AC OP offer?

If so, when do you start?

Yes I did.  I transferred to AC Op on 6 Dec.  I am on the course starting this Monday.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 05, 2007, 22:37:09
Good luck on your course Airmich, I hope to join you in the trade soon.

Cheers

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 06, 2007, 00:23:05
Good luck on your course Airmich, I hope to join you in the trade soon.

I see you have IAP, so I assume you will be going AEC vice AC Op then??
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NickRees on January 08, 2007, 02:08:56
Congratz on getting accepted.  I just switched my application from AEC to ACOP so I hope to hear some news soon.  Since you are at the school airmich, can you look at a calendar or something, or are you sure that the next course starts in March?  It's going to be some basis when I go into recruting again on Thursday.  Oh, and also the website says the course is 3 months but the video says 2.  Any clues on that one?

Nick
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 08, 2007, 07:38:23
My course runs 8 Jan - 19 Apr, so that puts it at just over 3 months.  IIRC, the next course starts 18 Mar, but I will confirm that for you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NickRees on January 08, 2007, 10:40:07
Well Good Luck on that first day, you know the "Here is where you smoke" and "here is the bathroom" "here is where the big kids sit" lol.  But never nothing about your trade....lol  Have fun though.  I hear the rooms are pretty swank there
nick
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Arron on January 08, 2007, 20:27:45
Its so nice there, room service, maid service.  It may sound jammy, buy airmich will be absorbing so much info and running so many sims she wont have a lot of time to spare.  I hope you know your pre course package airmich, it will help!

Good luck on the course,  It will be a lot of fun!  PM me with who is instructing there now, i think they have had a full changeover from when i was there last, aside from the chief.  And if there is a remi on your course (new pte, im pretty sure hes there now), id love to hear some stories on him, i gave him a good go on his last course he finished in dec.

Keep in touch, id love to hear how its going there now.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NickRees on January 08, 2007, 21:10:02
Well, maids are nice.  And getting an influx of information like that also sounds nice.  Ive become so complacent in my current job (reserve Boatswain) that having something new and interesting like that would completely appeal to me.  The only reason I took the reserve bos'n job was because I didn't know what I wanted to do in life, and sailing around seemed like fun (it wasn't a CFAT issue lol).  It seemed like a good thing to do at the time.  Now it would seem the only thing that could halt my accpetance would be space, and availability of billets.  Please let them still need more.  Hears to hoping.  Airmich-How was your first day, did you find the smoking area? lol.  Well heres to hoping I will be there with you in March ha, unlikely.

Nick
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 08, 2007, 22:13:27
I see you have IAP, so I assume you will be going AEC vice AC Op then??

No, AC Op it is. The officer world and I have decided to go our separate ways, at least for the foreseeable future.  Love to hear your feedback on the course, please keep us informed.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: peaches on January 08, 2007, 22:19:24
I am an AEC officer, anything I can help you answer let me know..........
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 08, 2007, 23:02:29
Day 1 down and ?? more to go (haven't started counting...yet!)

Room is great (double bed, own bathroom, desk, dresser, TV, closet), facility is great (good food, gym, pool).  You can see more info on the CFSACO site on the DIN, or check out the NavCanada site http://conference.navcanada.ca/en/index.asp

There is pre-course study package.  It is only available on the DIN.  Most of us were told that the exam was to be given the first day.  However, it is scheduled for next Monday, and this week is used for studying for it.  Pass mark is 90% and there are 585 questions on it!  They've changed the exam day to the second week, as they found that many students arrived not have been given it.

The rest of today was meeting the instructors and staff, a small tour, publication issue, admin paperwork etc.  There will be some more briefs throughout the week (ethics etc).  Max course load is 14, and we have 9.

There seems to be more people interested in this trade, so as time permits, I will attempt to keep you updated on the course.  Please feel to PM, or post here, if you have questions.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: peaches on January 08, 2007, 23:06:58
you meet cpl allard???
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 15, 2007, 20:43:35
Well, maids are nice. 
We'll see how nice they are when we ask if they can come early on Wed.  They aren't usually around until just after lunch, but our room inspection is at 0730.  ;D


Now it would seem the only thing that could halt my accpetance would be space, and availability of billets.  Please let them still need more.  Hears to hoping. 
Not sure what CFRC is showing right now for billets open, but they were telling us on the course that they lose about 37 people per year.  Meanwhile, they are running 3-4 courses per year, with max load of 14.  I am sure with those kinds of numbers that there are still spots open.  They don't know yet about course load for the March one, although I have heard of a couple people that are supposedly loaded on it already.  Best of luck, keep at 'er, squeaky wheel and all that jazz.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 15, 2007, 22:31:18
Not sure what CFRC is showing right now for billets open, but they were telling us on the course that they lose about 37 people per year. 

As of mid December I was told there were 14 positions left for the fiscal year, I don't know how many are left now.

AirMich - 37 people per year. I assume that's the number of people exiting the trade on an annual basis ? If so that would make sense, the planned intake for this year was around 40.

 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NickRees on January 16, 2007, 03:01:01
Flatspin,

I saw your first post was Jan of 06, did you actually apply for the trade then.  That was a year ago......whats going on?

Nick
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 16, 2007, 11:32:14
Flatspin,

I saw your first post was Jan of 06, did you actually apply for the trade then.  That was a year ago......whats going on?

Nick

No, I applied in July 06. There have been several delays (CFRC lost initial application, verification of former service, medical follow up). Fortunately everything except for the additional medical component (for the air factor I believe) is done now. Hopefully I'll have an offer in the next month to six weeks, if there are any positions left that is.
 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 16, 2007, 13:37:37
Flatspin, are you waiting still to actually DO your extra medical stuff, or is it done and you're waiting for the okay to come back on your air factor?  As for your offer, good luck and keep us posted.  Now that I am here, I am even more excited about the trade then I was before (well, except for learning clouds yesterday  :blotto:)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 16, 2007, 18:18:42
Flatspin, are you waiting still to actually DO your extra medical stuff, or is it done and you're waiting for the okay to come back on your air factor?  As for your offer, good luck and keep us posted.  Now that I am here, I am even more excited about the trade then I was before (well, except for learning clouds yesterday  :blotto:)

Additional eye exam is tomorrow, blood work and ECG on Thursday. Then it's sit back and wait.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 16, 2007, 19:35:39
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you both, Flatspin and Nick.  Here's hoping that files fly and you're both here at lovely NavCan for the March course.  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 23, 2007, 23:01:58
Update on the course so far as I hit the middle of week 3.

Besides the Threshold knowledge exam, we have had 2 others (weather last Friday and publications today) with another scheduled for this Friday (Flight plan info and data coordination services).

Information is coming fast and furious.  The lectures are all by powerpoint, but the instructors are decent and ensure that you understand what is being said and they do their best at keeping the beat up in class so it doesn't end up too dry.  We have homework most nights, but typically it is just confirmation questions from that day's lectures.  Time management is a big skill requirement for the course.  You need to review your notes every night, or you'll end up cramming far too much the night before an exam.  Your actual lessons for an exam end about 2 or 3 days beforehand, and you are already on to new topics when you write your exam.

All in all, busy days, but nothing too overwhelming (yet??).  I'm still quite enjoying things.  The first 3 sections of the course are ATC, while the last section will be AD.  Most students have decided, or think they have decided, which way they want to go.  But we've also been told that as we progress through the different sections, decisions will change back and forth many times.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Flatspin on January 23, 2007, 23:36:05
Update on the course so far as I hit the middle of week 3.

Besides the Threshold knowledge exam, we have had 2 others (weather last Friday and publications today) with another scheduled for this Friday (Flight plan info and data coordination services).

Information is coming fast and furious.  The lectures are all by powerpoint, but the instructors are decent and ensure that you understand what is being said and they do their best at keeping the beat up in class so it doesn't end up too dry.  We have homework most nights, but typically it is just confirmation questions from that day's lectures.  Time management is a big skill requirement for the course.  You need to review your notes every night, or you'll end up cramming far too much the night before an exam.  Your actual lessons for an exam end about 2 or 3 days beforehand, and you are already on to new topics when you write your exam.

All in all, busy days, but nothing too overwhelming (yet??).  I'm still quite enjoying things.  The first 3 sections of the course are ATC, while the last section will be AD.  Most students have decided, or think they have decided, which way they want to go.  But we've also been told that as we progress through the different sections, decisions will change back and forth many times.

Well clearly there's still time for Army.ca, that's a good sign.  ;D

Do you know if you'll be spending any time in the simulators they have there at NavCan ?

Also is there formal PT or are you on you're own ?


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 23, 2007, 23:43:01
There's always time for army.ca!  And if there isn't, well, I just go back to what I said about time management! :D

We get to the simulators in another 2 weeks, and spend about 5 weeks in them doing ATC stuff, and then we are back in them for about 3 weeks during the AD section.

There is PT scheduled into almost every day of class.  However, it is scheduled for 1600-1700.  We are often out a bit before that, and head to the gym earlier.  It is kind of formal, in the fact that we have to do it, and during the scheduled time. But most of us would have been working out anyway.  It is not formal, in the fact that although we are in PT together, we all do our own thing, except for once a week or so when we do an organized group activity like basketball or floor hockey or such.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on February 06, 2007, 21:31:59
We wrote our last written test for the ATC side of things today, and start in the sims (finally!) tomorrow.  The class has been split in half for the next 4 weeks.  I start in IFR then switch to VFR in 2 weeks.  Tomorrow will be demos run through by the instructors to show us how it is done and then it is all us on Thu.

For those still in the process of application, the next course has been pushed back a bit.  It is now scheduled to start 30 April, vice 18 March.  More time for those pesky med files to get through the system!!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Arron on February 07, 2007, 11:29:14
Ahh the sims.....  They were fun!  You can even make the fire truck do touch and goes all day long, or spin the 360 degree view....  That can make a person sick!

Glad to hear the course is going well, who are the instructors there now?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on February 07, 2007, 13:19:44
Sadly we are not in the 360 sim.  We saw a short demo in there, and used it for our aerodrome markings class, but we are not using it for any of our actual sims.

PM inbound about the instructors.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Retired ATC on February 08, 2007, 20:12:07
Sadly we are not in the 360 sim.  We saw a short demo in there, and used it for our aerodrome markings class, but we are not using it for any of our actual sims.

It`s just too bad... the 360 was so much fun when I was there...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on February 19, 2007, 10:37:00
Start of week 7 today.  Where is the time going?!?!  Today is our last assessed run in our respective sims before our practical exam tomorrow.  Then on Wed we switch, with my group going over to VFR.  It has been interesting to finally see what we have learned all fit together.  For those interested in the trade, start working on your neat printing now!  It takes awhile to get rid of 'doctor writing', that's for sure.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 12, 2007, 22:33:52
Start of week 10 today.  ATC side is complete with everyone having passed through IFR and VFR sims.  We are now into the AD section of the course with 2 weeks in the classroom, before we move into the sims.

Everyone is getting anxious to find out about postings, but we've still got a ways to go until we hear about those.  :(
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on November 24, 2007, 01:59:33
I'm new to the forums here and am currently going through the recruiting process and looking to do AC as an officer.  Just wondering if there are any other ppl out there that have gone through this process and can tell me more about it as far as what to expect after MOC training in Cornwall and where you have ended up living or options you were given as far as postings.  Thanks in advance!   :D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on November 24, 2007, 03:00:16
Are you referring to the AEC trade?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on November 24, 2007, 11:26:10
Aerospace Control sorry..I'll change the subject line.  As I'm new I don't know all the abbreviations...I was just trying to go with what i saw other people posting.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on November 24, 2007, 14:50:11
... where you have ended up living or options you were given as far as postings. 

When I was on my 3's course at the beginning of this year in Cornwall, there were 3 AEC courses on as well.  The fol are where people ended up getting posted (what I can remember anyway):

IFR - Cold Lake, Comox
VFR - Greenwood, Comox, Cold Lake
Weapons - North Bay (everyone starts in North Bay as there is another course still to do there), then 4 of 7 were posted to North Bay, 2 to Cold Lake and 1 to Rome NY

You are not given a choice as to which area of the trade you wish to go, although you are allowed to submit your preference.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on November 24, 2007, 17:41:35
Thanks for the response Airmich!  Just trying to get a general idea for down the road.  I was born in North Bay so would be interesting to be there again as it's been awhile as I was 3 when we moved so 30 years later now.. :o
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on November 25, 2007, 00:30:47
If you have any other questions, just ask.  If I can't answer them, I can find out for you and there are also a couple of AECs on the boards too that I'm sure could help out.  I do know that, no matter which way you go with the trade, the course is hard.  When I was in Cornwall, the pass mark was 80% and the failure rate was high.  The pass mark is now at 85%.  As for the facilities themselves in Cornwall, there is at least one thread in this forum with details. Good luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on November 25, 2007, 09:25:04
Hmmm...yikes that is high! :o  Well if I do get through everything else and into this trade guess I'll have to work my butt off and maybe I can get a big shiny plaque like the one I saw you got.  Congrats on that btw.   :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on November 25, 2007, 17:00:31
For sure you've got some tough training ahead of you, but it's definitely an excellent trade to be in. I'm no authority on the subject of life as an AEC (having only survived BMOQ thusfar), but from what I've experienced, I don't regret for a second the choice I made.

If you've got any questions about the first part of your training, feel free to ask.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on November 25, 2007, 17:22:13
 :-[  Thanks airbrat!

Like Jorkapp said, it does seem to be an excellent trade.  Not something I wanted to do, although it was pushed by CFRC when I remustered, but I just wasn't ready to take the plunge for officer.  Even people that have failed out of training don't seem to regret their time spent in the trade, and some of them get a second chance too.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on November 25, 2007, 19:30:53
Thanks both of you.  I'm sure I'll have some more questions as time progresses and I get through the recruiting part and into training so I'll be sure to ask then.  For now I'll just wait and see how this all progresses....hopefully in my favour with all parts of the process. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: CFFB on December 17, 2007, 11:48:15
Does anyone out there know how training is being conducted at Cornwall now?  It looks to me that they have changed the whole way they do business there.  

Before, one would complete a core DL (distributive/distance learning)  package, then go on core AEC training, then branch off into either Weapons, IFR, or VFR (after you input a preference).  I had a look at a schedule and it seems that they have streamlined the whole process.  

Now it seems, candidates are assigned an AEC specialty before they start their training.  The DL packages are specific to either Weapons, IFR, or VFR and there is no longer a "core" AEC basic.  After the DL package is finished students proceed directly to training for one of the three disciplines of AEC.  

Does anyone out there know how they are assigning people to the different specialties now?  Are candidates able to input a preference before they start their training?

I'm in a mushroom factory right now working for the Navy wearing a spiffy new blue uniform and waiting to go on courses.  If anyone out there has some insight into AEC training it would be greatly appreciated.  

I was going to ask this in the "AEC Training at Cornwall" thread but as it hasn't been active in quite some time I took the plunge and started a new topic.  (The site told me to start a new topic when I tried to post a response.)      

Thanks in advance.  
 :cdn:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on December 17, 2007, 12:09:00
First, congrats on taking the plunge from Navy to the Aerospace world and welcome!  Another comm bites the dust.  :D

 I had heard rumours about there being a change, mostly due to the training required for the Weapons side of the house.  I am back to work tomorrow for a couple of days and will ask/look around and see what I can find out for you, if someone else hasn't posted by then with an answer.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on December 28, 2007, 20:31:28
I'm AEC - weapons.  There have been a couple discussions on general AEC info, so you could do a search to find some more info.

Otherwise, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on December 28, 2007, 21:16:05
Thanks Judy.  I'm still waiting to get the call to do my testing and everything else so once it's official I will be doing that I'll probably have more questions at that point.  Good to know I'll have ppl such as yourself to chat with.   :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on December 29, 2007, 02:54:31
Hey best of luck to you in the application! I applied as an aerospace control officer myself, but when I got to the medical I got turned down because I don't have V-3 vision. So after all the tests and interview and doing my homework about AEC, I am now applying in Intelligence, but my heart is still in the air force haha. I hope all your testing goes well.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 14, 2008, 18:35:08
Finally got a chance to corner someone about this.  They are going to get some more information for me, specifically the length of time required for the DL package itself. 

This is what I have so far:  you get a huge DL package.  This contains the old DL package as well as alot of what was taught on the old core phase.  While you are working on this, you will have a main location that you have been attach-posted to (North Bay or an airbase).  However, you will then spend some time in the opposite so as to get background for all sides of the trade.  Once you get to Cornwall, you will be told which way you are going.  You are able to put in your preference, but like with everything else, there is no guarantee for where you go.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on February 10, 2008, 16:39:27
What is the difference between IFR and VFR? I haven't been able to find anything on this here or on the recruitment website. TIA.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: George Wallace on February 10, 2008, 16:43:11
Instrument Flying Rules

Visual Flying Rules

Now who or what is TIA?

Thanks in advance.  (  ;D )
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on February 10, 2008, 16:46:06
Thanks. Does this mean that AEC jobs are very different depending on which "rules" are used?

TIA = Thanks in advance  ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on February 10, 2008, 16:48:21



Thanks in advance.  (  ;D )

That little addendum wasn't there the first time I read your reply.  ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 10, 2008, 16:58:20
Thanks. Does this mean that AEC jobs are very different depending on which "rules" are used?



Very much so, yes
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 10, 2008, 17:03:44
What is the difference between IFR and VFR? I haven't been able to find anything on this here or on the recruitment website. TIA.

Maybe you should try google
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on February 10, 2008, 17:21:53
Maybe you should try google

I already have, but thanks for the original suggestion.  ;)

Other than the different systems or "rules" for each area, I discovered (via the interactive feature on the recruitment site) that IFR controllers work out of a terminal control centre, whereas VFR controllers work out of a control tower. I'm repeating this for others who may be wondering the same things, but who are afraid to ask a question here.

As I have always told my students: there is no such thing as a stupid question. If you don't ask, how will you ever learn?

Search engines are great, but they are not interactive. They are not people. New recruits want to hear from people 'in the know'.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 10, 2008, 17:26:47


Other than the different systems or "rules" for each area, I discovered (via the interactive feature on the recruitment site) that IRF controllers work out of a terminal control centre, whereas VRF controllers work out of a control tower. I'm repeating this for others who may be wondering the same things, but who are afraid to ask a question here.


And beyond that they have very different responsabilities when it comes to controlling air traffic. Its not a simple matter of what building they work in.

Quote
As I have always told my students: there is no such thing as a stupid question. If you don't ask, how will you ever learn?

We used to say that "theres no stupid questions, but there are alot of inquisitive idiots"......LOL


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on March 19, 2008, 05:14:08
Thanks in advance for anyone who's reading my post. I truly appreciate this site as it has given me a lot of helpful advices. However, there is something that I have been thinking about for the past 2 weeks.

I am situated in Vancouver and I am finishing up my English degree at UBC. About a month ago, I put down 1) pilot 2) Air Nav 3) AEC as my preferences. I received a call from the CFRC 4 days later to tell me that pilot is very competive to get in and that it is closed. I was also told that Air Nav is difficult to get in as well and he asked me if I wanted to switch over to AEC instead. I wasn't sure what to choose so I said I would call him back if I wanted to change my preferences.

Knowing how difficult it is to get in as a pilot, I went to the CFRC to ask about ROTP at University of Western Ontario for pilots. Unfortunately, I was too late to submit an application for that as the board was going to sit on the next day. My original application remains untouched as too many applications for pilots have been received. I felt so bummed. I went ahead and asked about switching over to Air Nav, but then I found out that Air Nav will be closing. It's not known when the trade will be closed (as of that day), but I just don't feel highly comfortable going into a trade that will be closing in maybe a few years (?). On top of that, I was also informed that MANY people fail the Air Nav test. So, basically, pilot is extremely difficult to get into and Air Nav has a high drop out rate and it's also closing in a few years (?). That left me with my third option, which is AEC. I asked about that one too and I was also told that AEC's courses are difficult to get through as well, but it MIGHT be easier to get in. I really just don't know what to do, but knowing that I MIGHT have a better chance for AEC, I switched my preferences and had that down for first preferred trade. Honestly, at this moment, I would be happy to get pilot or AEC, but it just really seems to me that all 3 trades are difficult to get into. Sigh.

My grades at uni aren't great at all, but I must say that I really love Math. I got 100% in grade 12 Math and also won some Math contests in high school. I love the air force and I would love to have a job that has a lot of Math, writing, and perhaps something to do with languages as well. I took up to grade 12 French and then I had my own tutor who helped me out with French here and there. I was born in Hong Kong so I speak farily fluent Cantonese/Mandarin. I also did 4 years of Japanese and lived in Japan for 4 months. My Japanese skills aren't anywhere close to fluent, but I know enough to get by in Japan (plus some body language  :D).

On top of not being good at school at all, I also have a poor academic record. Basically, my grandma and my best friend died within 2 months and I also had some health issues (never found out the cause or the cure for it - it just went away). I TRIED to talk to my counsellor about my situation, but I ended up crying almost thorough my whole appointment with her. So, we decided that I should drop all of my classes and take some time off. It really sucked because mine were all full year courses, so all my effort from the 4 previous months were wasted, but I guess I needed the time. Now I have some W's on my transcript and a failed grade because somehow one of my courses was not dropped succesfully. Sigh.

As for work experience, I work close to full time with children with autism while still going to school full time. It is a VERY rewarding job, but only when the family has enough resources to run and maintain the home program. Because autism is still not fully funded, it's very hard for the family to keep hiring professionals (at least $100 per hour plus a long waiting list) who can provide therapists (someone like me) enough training and directions. Without enough instructions, therapists risk themselves being punched/kicked in the face every 5 minutes or so as these are common negative behaviours that these children have. Having said that though, I have been co-leading a therapy team for 2 years. My duties include hiring and training new staff, keeping the family and school updated about behaviours and academics, and probing new things to teach. Experience wise, I am not quite sure if this is good enough to apply for an Officer position and this has been part of my concern for my application as well.

I should also mention my vision. I went in to the eye clinic at the hospital the other day and I was told that my eyesight is 20/20 only when combined. My left is 20/30 and right is 20/20. I had a surgery on one of my eyes when I was 3 years old. I don't know which eye and what kind of surgery though. (I am an orphan and I can't find any record)

My main concern about my application is that I have been told that all 3 trades are difficult to get in and that even if I do get in, the courses are going to be difficult to get through. I thought about changing trades to something else, but then I also think that all trades have their difficult parts. I looked into musician because I play the piano and violin, but I don't have any Music degrees or diplomas that most applicants have. I really do feel discouraged about my application.  :-\ Any thoughts about what I should do would be much appreciated. Thanks a lot everyone.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on March 19, 2008, 09:12:34
Wow, a few things you said sound very familiar.  I too am working with children with autism as well as other kids and teens with a wide range of mental health issues at the Children's Hospital here in Ottawa.  I'm only casual so I only get shifts if someone calls in sick or they need extra staff.  I know how challenging it can be to work with autistic kids as I worked for two years full time with a couple autistic children in an elementary school. 

  As far as your application, it can be very easy to become discouraged about the whole situation esp. when the top two trades you wanted to do aren't accessible.  I applied back in the fall for AEC Officer and have still not received a call at all.  I would say to you to go over whether or not you really want to do AEC as a trade and if you do then go for it.   If not, look through the trades again and see if there is something else besides the three you chose that better suits your want for working with something math related.  Good luck and let us know how things progress.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 19, 2008, 09:14:32
Hi there. :)  First off, let me just say that no one can tell you what you should do. Only you can do that. However, I just thought I'd add a reply here as a fellow AEC applicant. I can tell you that your eyesight sounds like V1 or V2 and you only need a V3 to pass the visual standards for aircrew (I'm a V2, but my eyes aren't as good as yours!).

When I was 18 (I'm twice that now), my dream was to be a pilot in the Air Force. It seems a lot of us have that dream. At the time, I knew I couldn't meet the visual standards and I also had family members talking me out of a military career. When I decided to give the military another go (after years of teaching English as a Second Language), I first thought I would go with the reserves. Truth be told, that decision was more to appease family and friends than myself. I knew that in the reserves, I would have more control over postings and deployments, and they were worried about me and my safety. Ultimately, though, I recognized that I  don't have a problem going where the DND wants me to go, even if it means doing overseas deployments. So I changed to reg force, and I am very happy with that decision (other folks, not so much). I was also originally thinking of applying for NCM occupations like RMS clerk or comms researcher, but the recruiters I met with encouraged me to go for an officer trade. One recruiter in particular pointed me to AEC. After watching the DVD he gave me and doing more research on my own, I was sold. AEC seems like a very exciting, challenging career - just what I am looking for! So to make a long story short (too late, huh?  ;D), you will eventually figure out what trade is the one for you and there is no time limit. Give yourself as much time as you need to investigate all your options.

The new fiscal year is starting April 1st, so most (all?) of the trades should be opening up, as they say. The Captain at my CFRC who interviewed me said that there are 60 DEO positions for AEC per year. My application is held up a little bit at the moment because of the security clearance I need due to having lived in Taiwan within the past decade. I also just had my bloodwork and ECG done this week, as it took a long time just to get an appointment with my family doctor. Ergo, I have a snowball's chance in (you-know-where) of getting one of the remaining positions for THIS fiscal year as it is less than 2 weeks from closing. The good news is that this means there are 60 "new" positions opening up to vie for. There is a BMOQ at the end of August, lest something change between now and then, and I am keeping my fingers crossed that I will get into that one. Perhaps I will see you there. :)

Good luck with your decision!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: h3tacco on March 19, 2008, 12:25:51
Just some words of advice. Even though I have never been a recruiter and haven't been through the recruiting systems for over 10 years, I am a serving Air Navigator. First off, I wouldn't worry about the competitive thing just put down the choices you want and ask the recruiter what you can do to make your application more competitive. The worst thing they can say is no. Don't settle for anything just because a recruiter tells you are not competitive.  If you want to be a pilot, put it down as your first choice, if you want to be Nav or AEC put them down as well. I guarantee you at some point in the future they will hire people for all three of those trades. If you don't get in the first time try again.

If you are comfortable with Math all three of those trades will use math to some degree, however, it probably won't be anything more complicated than high school math. There are lots of serving Pilots, Navs, and AECs who either don't have degrees or have non-technical degrees. I have a Hisotry degree.

Also find out as much information about all three of those trades before making any final decisions. Having worked with AECs I know that can be rewarding and exiciting career field. As for the Nav trade disappearing in a few years. Well anything could happen but I am fairly confident the air force will employs Navs in one form or another for a while (20+ years). The CH148 Cyclone, the updated (AIMP) Aurora and the Aurora replacement (Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft) will all employ Navigators or whatever they are called in the future.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 19, 2008, 13:53:16
Seems theres a lot of AEC's killing time on here

As for your choices, as it was mentioned before, put your choices in for what you truly want and if they say its really competitive, ask how to make yourself more competitive. You've got to work for the things you want.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 19, 2008, 16:23:55
Seems theres a lot of AEC's killing time on here

It could be a minimum of 5 more months' worth of time killing for most of us, if not longer. I see you are going DEO AEC also. Have you completed all of the application requirements? Once I get my bloodwork and ECG results next week and hand them over to the WO, I am done (I hope).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 19, 2008, 17:27:30
Yup, interviewed on Jan 17th and had everything else in by then so just waiting now...and hoping the phone rings soon
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 19, 2008, 17:38:57
Yup, interviewed on Jan 17th and had everything else in by then so just waiting now...and hoping the phone rings soon

Fingers crossed for us both then. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 19, 2008, 18:29:52
I'll keep'em crossed for all of us.

AirBrat you given any thought to what side of AEC you'd like?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on March 20, 2008, 02:12:37
Not as of yet.  I just need to find out what the issue is of why I haven't heard a thing back yet before I start thinking of that stuff.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 09:26:34
Not as of yet.  I just need to find out what the issue is of why I haven't heard a thing back yet before I start thinking of that stuff.

Have you been waiting long? Did the folks at your CFRC give you any idea of what might be holding things up?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Deepinit on March 20, 2008, 12:08:57
To those of you who've been waiting for a phone call, I had my interview back last year in late September and didn't hear back from anyone until mid February. I hate to be a stick in the mud but it might give you an idea of how long you'll have to wait. Nevermind that I started the app process last JULY!

As for what I was told I'm swearing in next week on the 26th at CFRC Toronto, then St. Jean from May 4th to August 15th. The Cpl. I spoke to didn't say give any details beyond that except that provided I pass (eff that, WHEN I pass) the course at Cornwall will follow.



By the by, I got my own question. I'm 26 right now and will be 32 when my contract is over. Let's say for the sake of argument I'll want to move on to a different occupation in the Air Force (be it nav, pilot, mech, whatever) when I'm done my original commitment. How easy is this to accomplish? Is it looked down on? Is it doable seeing as how I fulfilled my original commitment? Does it have an affect on rank, pay, etc? I only ask now because I'm pretty restless and know I will want to take on new ventures. This is all just speculative though. I don't even know what I'll be doing or thinking 6 hours from now let alone in 6 years. But if any of the experienced folks can chime in on it that'd be nice.

Later!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: h3tacco on March 20, 2008, 12:33:25
To answer you question about switching occupations after being trained as an AEC, the answer is it really depends.  There is a process in place (Occupational Transfer) which allows serving officers to switch from one trade to another and a number of people due this every year.  Officially there would be no reason that you would not be able switch from one trade to another. Some trades due have a restricted release, meaning once you are qualified you cannot release or change trades for a number of years. I know for Navs this is 4 years and Pilots 7 years. I do not know if AEC has a restricted release.  That all being said both trades have to agree to release you and accept you. For example, if you wanted to switch from AEC to Pilot. The AEC world would need to agree to let you go and the Pilot trade would have to agree to take you on. As I believe the AEC trade is undermanned, I would suggest that the AEC world would be less inclined to let you go once you are fully trained.  It would also depend on the status of the Pilot trade. For example, the Legal Officer trade is over staffed, as a result it is very competitive to get an Occupational Transfer to Legal Officer.

All that to say it is conceivable that you will be able to switch trades after a certain number of years as an AEC, however, it always with the needs of the service in mind.

Is it looked down upon?  no
Will you suffer any rank penalties? If you are a Major you will be demoted to Capt but chances are you will not be a Maj in six years.
Will you suffer any pay penalties? no 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 15:20:25
As for what I was told I'm swearing in next week on the 26th at CFRC Toronto, then St. Jean from May 4th to August 15th. The Cpl. I spoke to didn't say give any details beyond that except that provided I pass (eff that, WHEN I pass) the course at Cornwall will follow.

I was wondering about this as well. I've heard that AECs are attach-posted to a base in between BMOQ and the AEC course in Cornwall for a period of time, and that you receive materials to study prior to going to Cornwall. True or not? If so, is there a specific length of time for this posting or does it vary? Are dependents allowed?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 20, 2008, 15:37:02
I was wondering about this as well. I've heard that AECs are attach-posted to a base in between BMOQ and the AEC course in Cornwall for a period of time, and that you receive materials to study prior to going to Cornwall. True or not? If so, is there a specific length of time for this posting or does it vary? Are dependents allowed?

Yes, there is a pre-study package now.  It takes the place of the common or core phase of AEC.  There is another thread around here with some more information in it, but not alot IIRC.  Your attach-posting time will vary depending on when the next AEC course is, and how long you require to do the package.  Because this is an attach-posting and will be less then 1 year, you will not have your dependents with you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 20, 2008, 15:38:05
 Here (http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/index.php/topic,68933.0.html) is the other thread that I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 15:46:59
Yes, there is a pre-study package now.  It takes the place of the common or core phase of AEC.  There is another thread around here with some more information in it, but not alot IIRC.  Your attach-posting time will vary depending on when the next AEC course is, and how long you require to do the package.  Because this is an attach-posting and will be less then 1 year, you will not have your dependents with you.

Thanks for the info, airmich. With BMOQ, the 7 months at Cornwall, and time in between, that's well over a year in training. It's a long time to be away from my daughter, too, but it will be worth it, I am sure.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 15:59:54
Here (http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/index.php/topic,68933.0.html) is the other thread that I mentioned above.

I actually posted on that thread.  ;D  Some of what I heard came from an officer cadet here in a PM, some from that thread, and some from another OCdt who was attach-posted somewhere (for several months, I believe) prior to going to Cornwall. So I have drawn my own conclusions from all of that and your post above. While the young folks who are free of dependants and responsibilities might not mind being told at the last minute where they are headed and for how long, those of us who are not would prefer to know as far in advance as possible to prepare (not just ourselves, but our families) for what is to come. There is nothing on the recruitment site with regards to any time between BOTP and the course in Cornwall curiously enough.

Post-script: Before I get bombarded with posts telling me to 'get used to' not knowing where you are going and for how long, I will say that I do realize that in the military, you don't always get much advanced notice and that plans for courses, postings, etc. can change quickly.  (Dons flame retardent gear  :warstory:)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 20, 2008, 16:11:10
I posted the link to the other thread, then read it afterwards, and realized that you had posted in it.  Oh well, gives a link for others to read.

As for the time inbetween courses, all you can do is keep your fingers crossed that you might be close to home during the time or part of it.  I notice that your profile says you are in NS.  There is always a chance that you might get Shearwater or Greenwood for your pre-course time.  As for your time in Cornwall, it will fly by.  You will be so busy with the course that you won't have much time to think about anything else.  And who knows, your course might be scheduled in such a way that you will be on XMas or Summer block leave and get some time at home then.

As you said, you never know what will happen or when it will happen.  Think of the worst case scenario (most time away and far away from home) and if that's what you get, then you are already mentally prepared.  Anything else, and you can take it as a bonus.  One other thing, in regards to time away from home: if you end up going Weapons, you then have a course in North Bay to do.  You won't find out until the end of that course (I think it is 4-5 months long) where you will be posted to.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 16:23:42
if you end up going Weapons, you then have a course in North Bay to do. 

If I have a choice, I will probably go Traffic, not Weapons, but until I learn more about both areas, I cannot say that I am 100% sure of that either. I assume (hope?) they try to give OCdts their preferences with regards to Weapons/IFR/VFR when possible.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 20, 2008, 16:32:25
I assume (hope?) they try to give OCdts their preferences with regards to Weapons/IFR/VFR when possible.

 :rofl:  (laughing with you... ;))

Keep your hopes up.  There never seems to be any rhyme or reason to how they pick them.  Even when the core phase was in Cornwall, there didn't seem to be any pattern.  Even if you hadn't done well in a certain section, you could still end up in that area.  I'm sure that like everything, they do try.  But it is all going to depend on how many people want a certain side, and how many they need for each too.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on March 20, 2008, 18:50:06
Celticgirl:
Preference is given as to which part of our occupation you will get, until more that part of the occupation for a particular serial is filled.  I am curious why you don't want weapons?  I have been a controller since 1980, and I am currently a weapons instructor at CFSACO.  If there are any questions I can answer let me know.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 20, 2008, 18:52:55
If Celticgirl gets Weapons I'll gladly take it off her hands Gazoo ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 19:13:08
I am curious why you don't want weapons? 

I really only have a very basic idea of how Air Traffic and Air Weapons differ, so I cannot say for sure that I wouldn't enjoy being an Air Weapons Controller. I won't know enough to make that choice until I am at CFASCO taking the courses, which is why I said I am not 100% decided at the moment. However, I've heard that all WCs spend the first part of their careers in North Bay. That squashes any hopes I had of getting posted to Eastern Canada (although I know that I may not get an Eastern posting regardless). I also have this idea that WCs work in underground facilities (like North Bay) whereas TCs work in control towers, AWACS aircrafts, etc. - above ground and with windows. While I am not claustrophobic in any way, I find the image of working in a control tower more appealing than working in the side of a mountain. These could all be my own misconceptions, of course, and I look forward to learning more in the months to come. Feel free to try to convince me of the merits of the Weapons side. ;)

@KJL...Don't worry; I will take whatever I get. It's still a long haul to get there and if when I pass my courses, I will be excited to begin my career.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 20, 2008, 19:21:14

@KJL...Don't worry; I will take whatever I get. It's still a long haul to get there and if when I pass my courses, I will be excited to begin my career.


Definitely likewise  :)  The idea of doing Weaps was what drew me to AEC after the recruiter said they were short. But as for Weapsons or ATC side, CF needs first of course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on March 20, 2008, 19:24:08
Unfortunately, you will have to make your choice before you get here.  Since we don't have a core phase anymore, we don't select the candidates here.  That is done in Winnipeg.  You need to make your choice known before it is chosen for you.  Where are you now, and when do you expect to be here?
As far as location, yes all Weapons Controllers spend the first part of their careers in North Bay.  Out of the last three weapons courses we have sent to North Bay in the past year, over half of them have already left, or are leaving North Bay this summer.  Some of the locations they have gone to are: Eastern Air Defence Sector in Rome NY, Alaskan NORAD region, 12 Radar Bagotville QC, Western Air Defence sector in Tacoma Washington to name a few.
As far as facilities the above ground complex has been open for over a year so it doesn't take long to get outside and see the sun(I spent 14 years underground).
In my 28 year career as a Weapons Controller I have been to North Bay, CFS Lowther, ON(no longer exists), Panama City, FL, Tacoma, WA and Vicenza Italy.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on March 20, 2008, 19:39:44
whereas TCs work in control towers, AWACS aircrafts, etc. - above ground and with windows.


BTW, weapons controllers work on AWACS, not ATC people.

And if you think ATC folks only work in towers with windows, you have never been in an IFRCC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 19:48:27
Unfortunately, you will have to make your choice before you get here.  Since we don't have a core phase anymore, we don't select the candidates here.  That is done in Winnipeg.  You need to make your choice known before it is chosen for you.  Where are you now, and when do you expect to be here?
As far as location, yes all Weapons Controllers spend the first part of their careers in North Bay.  Out of the last three weapons courses we have sent to North Bay in the past year, over half of them have already left, or are leaving North Bay this summer.  Some of the locations they have gone to are: Eastern Air Defence Sector in Rome NY, Alaskan NORAD region, 12 Radar Bagotville QC, Western Air Defence sector in Tacoma Washington to name a few.
As far as facilities the above ground complex has been open for over a year so it doesn't take long to get outside and see the sun(I spent 14 years underground).
In my 28 year career as a Weapons Controller I have been to North Bay, CFS Lowther, ON(no longer exists), Panama City, FL, Tacoma, WA and Vicenza Italy.

I'm in NS now awaiting my security clearance so that I can be merit listed. When I expect to be there and when I get there are probably two vastly different time periods.  ;D  I am hoping to get into the late August-December BMOQ. I don't know what course that would put me on for Cornwall. Airmich et al have indicated that there is a period of time between basic training and the AEC courses, so it could be next spring or summer before I get there (and that's optimistic, I'm sure).

I didn't know that the choice had to be made prior to going to CFASCO. Hopefully, the info in the AEC study package will help with making that decision.

I don't suppose the CF would send me to Italy for my first posting, would they? Nah, I didn't think so. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 20, 2008, 19:49:05

BTW, weapons controllers work on AWACS, not ATC people.

And if you think ATC folks only work in towers with windows, you have never been in an IFRCC.

Thanks for the clarification, CA. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on March 20, 2008, 20:55:41
At present I am not sure of how long a wait there is between Basic and getting here to Cornwall.  There is also a possibility of second language training between basic and occupation training, but I don't know how many people get that.  Once through basic, depending on which part of the occupation you select(or get), try to spend your OJT(on job training) at a base where you can see and experience that occupation.  For most weapons controllers I would recommend either North Bay, Cold Lake Alberta or Bagotville Quebec.  There are many other place you could go, but not many would be able to offer you anything like what you will experience here.
If I can help, or answer any questions please let me know.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on March 21, 2008, 02:08:05
Have you been waiting long? Did the folks at your CFRC give you any idea of what might be holding things up?

I applied back in September or October 2007 I believe and I haven't actually talked with anyone from my CFRC yet as life has been busy for me in the last few months...Ie--finding out I'm going to be a dad in August of this year. 

Good to see more info. popping up on this thread though so when I do find out what's happening I know where to go and who to talk to if I have any questions or concerns.  Thanks to all for being so informative in regards to this topic!!  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 21, 2008, 09:51:33
Gazoo, I can't thank you enough for the info you've given us already. We will be sure to remember you when we have more questions. :)

Airbrat, congrats on your impending parenthood!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KenJacobson on March 21, 2008, 12:11:34

I was told by my recruiting officer (after she made a call to Cornwall) that the next AEC training course in Conrwall would be in Jan 09, so I'll have about 6 months of OJT/PAT (whatever the acronym de jour is) after BMOQ (completes 15 Aug). As far as SLT, I was told that things have changed and it is not mandatory to complete SLT immediately after basic  if your trade doesn't require it.  I was told I would have to complete SLT at some point if I wanted to be promoted past the rank of Major.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 21, 2008, 12:30:57
Thats funny, I remember seeing AEC on a list of trades requiring SLT....guess the saying is true, the only constant is change.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 21, 2008, 12:42:31
Thats funny, I remember seeing AEC on a list of trades requiring SLT....guess the saying is true, the only constant is change.

If you check the list on this thread, the AEC trade apparently only requires SLT for Francophones:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,70923.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,70923.0.html)

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 21, 2008, 12:45:15
I was told by my recruiting officer (after she made a call to Cornwall) that the next AEC training course in Conrwall would be in Jan 09, so I'll have about 6 months of OJT/PAT (whatever the acronym de jour is) after BMOQ (completes 15 Aug). As far as SLT, I was told that things have changed and it is not mandatory to complete SLT immediately after basic  if your trade doesn't require it.  I was told I would have to complete SLT at some point if I wanted to be promoted past the rank of Major.

Ken, were you told what you would be doing while on OJT (with only basic training behind you and no AEC knowledge or experience) and where you might be attach-posted for the six months? Do you get to submit a preference?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on March 21, 2008, 13:43:13
OK, the latest scoop on the SLT from my recruiting center, kind of off topic but important, that list is for DEO and CEOTP. If you are doing either of those, then you might not have to do it until you want to make it to major. ROTP still does SLT for all trades, both languages.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 21, 2008, 13:44:24
Appreciate it mate
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on March 21, 2008, 13:52:52
OK, the latest scoop on the SLT from my recruiting center, kind of off topic but important, that list is for DEO and CEOTP. If you are doing either of those, then you might not have to do it until you want to make it to major. ROTP still does SLT for all trades, both languages.

Regardless of entry plan, i'm certain that if you are a francophone and not profecient at english, you will be going on SLT if you are entering as an AEC officer.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Dimsum on March 21, 2008, 14:22:11
Franco AEC officers require a CBB in English before they're let out of St-Jean.  Anglo AEC officers don't need to do SLT anymore. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KenJacobson on March 21, 2008, 14:30:39
Ken, were you told what you would be doing while on OJT (with only basic training behind you and no AEC knowledge or experience) and where you might be attach-posted for the six months? Do you get to submit a preference?

I was told that after basic I would be posted somewhere for OJT, this "somewhere" did NOT have to be a base with a dedicated CF air traffic control system (for me Winnipeg would be fine), and that I should provide the staff at CFLRS with my recruiting officers name with the hopes of being stationed back home with my wife and son.

Wherever it is I'm sent, I'll stay there until I've completed the distance learning part of the AEC course. For the core part of the course (Jan 09 for me) I'll be transferred to Cornwall. From my understanding, which could very well be wrong, OJT is more like a shadow position. It's not meant for you to do any of the meat and potatoes work of the trade, but rather get an idea of what work in the trade (or stream) entails.

Yes, I was told I would be able to submit a preference during the distance learning portion of the AEC course, however, I've been forewarned that this "preference" doesn't really add up to a hill of beans and that I'll be told which branch I'm in, regardless of my preference, when arriving in Cornwall to complete the core component.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 21, 2008, 16:39:15
Thanks, Ken. The big picture is getting much clearer. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on March 21, 2008, 19:15:15
A sincere thank you to EVERYONE who has responded to my post. I was extremely touched by all of your speedy and helpful responses. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond!

I was told that CFRC Vancouver is all booked up for appointments in March (for medicals, intervies, and aptitude test), so now I have to wait for them to let me know when they have spots open for me to write my test. Given the fact that I am eligible to go in to write the test, does that mean they think my application is OK? I was so concerned about whether they would even bother to let me go write the test, as they told me that all 3 trades are quite competitive/hard to get through.

I'm so nervous!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 21, 2008, 20:02:26
A sincere thank you to EVERYONE who has responded to my post. I was extremely touched by all of your speedy and helpful responses. Thanks so much for taking the time to respond!

I was told that CFRC Vancouver is all booked up for appointments in March (for medicals, intervies, and aptitude test), so now I have to wait for them to let me know when they have spots open for me to write my test. Given the fact that I am eligible to go in to write the test, does that mean they think my application is OK? I was so concerned about whether they would even bother to let me go write the test, as they told me that all 3 trades are quite competitive/hard to get through.

I'm so nervous!

Don't think anyone can really say whether they think your application is ok or not, but given your getting set to write the test make sure youre ready for it and that will tilt your app in the right direction. There's alot of threads on here about the CFAT so I'd suggest going through them and getting an idea of what you'll be facing on test day. That should help with your test and your nerves when you're sitting down to do it. Don't stress over it, you've got the time to prep for it, use it and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on March 21, 2008, 23:10:58
Given the fact that I am eligible to go in to write the test, does that mean they think my application is OK?

Doing the test is part of the application process, dont read too much into the CFRC getting you to do it.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on March 24, 2008, 18:31:16
Wherever it is I'm sent, I'll stay there until I've completed the distance learning part of the AEC course. For the core part of the course (Jan 09 for me) I'll be transferred to Cornwall. From my understanding, which could very well be wrong, OJT is more like a shadow position. It's not meant for you to do any of the meat and potatoes work of the trade, but rather get an idea of what work in the trade (or stream) entails.

Ken:
What you have been told it pretty much correct,  except that we no longer have a 'core' part of the course.  Last fall we eliminated the AEC core and incorporated it into DL.  So you will need to submit a preference(through your supervisor to Major Don Carver in Winnipeg) as to which branch of the occupation you want before coming to Cornwall.  You are correct in that there is no guarantee you will get your choice, but when you show up here you will already be assigned to either IFR, VFR, or Weapons.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 24, 2008, 19:47:49
Last fall we eliminated the AEC core and incorporated it into DL. 

Gazoo, is the course at CFSACO still 7 months in duration (as indicated on the recruitment site)?

[Edited to fix acronym]
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on March 24, 2008, 19:54:35
Gazoo, is the course at CFSACO still 7 months in duration (as indicated on the recruitment site)?

[Edited to fix acronym]
No, it depends on which part of the occupation you get.  It is from three and a half to six months(weapons 3 and a half).  Off the top of my head I can't tell you exactly how long the VFR and IFR courses are.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 24, 2008, 19:56:05
No, it depends on which part of the occupation you get.  It is from three and a half to six months(weapons 3 and a half).  Off the top of my head I can't tell you exactly how long the VFR and IFR courses are.

Well, now, this is new information. Thank you. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KenJacobson on March 24, 2008, 20:12:26
Thanks for the confirmation Gazoo!
My family will be happy to hear they'll have their dad/husband around just a little while longer.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on March 26, 2008, 12:16:22
Well, finally decided to check back with my CFRC yesterday and left a message as to the status of my application.  Heard back this morning that they had just received my medical info.(which I'm guessing is what took 5 months to get) and I should be getting a call this week sometime to move onto the next stage which hopefully will mean just a quick check up and an interview (depending on if they decide to make me take the CFAT again as I took it before when I joined the Reserves).

  Anyway, just feels good to know I'm finally getting somewhere with this now after all these months of hearing nothing.  Now I just have to hope I'm not going through basic when my wife is giving birth in August.   :o
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 26, 2008, 14:15:13
Here's hoping you get to spend some time with the lil one before you head off
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on March 28, 2008, 15:35:46
Oh boy. CFRC called me yesterday to set up my appointment for CFAT. I am so excited that my test is going to be in about 1.5 weeks. I thought they wouldn't call me until the end of April/May. YAY!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KenJacobson on March 28, 2008, 16:15:42
Oh boy. CFRC called me yesterday to set up my appointment for CFAT. I am so excited that my test is going to be in about 1.5 weeks. I thought they wouldn't call me until the end of April/May. YAY!

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on March 28, 2008, 17:08:47
Just heard from them today and I write mine in 4 days.  Then it's onto Aerospace Control for me...after basic and slt of course  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KJL on March 28, 2008, 17:21:27
Good luck on the CFAT fella's
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on March 28, 2008, 21:03:15
Good luck on the CFAT, Airbrat and Kruggle! Eat a good breakfast the morning of the test.  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 02, 2008, 15:26:12
Thanks for all the wishes, but right now I am having other concerns..

My test is next week and something has been bothering me a lot. I was supposed to be finishing up my degree by the end of this month, but right now I'm not so certain that I will get through the semester. I have signed up for the summer semester just in case I fail something, but knowing that officers need a degree to get in, I am not sure if it is better for me to switch over to NCM. The reason why I have been thinking about NCM now is that my grades aren't great and that even if I do pull through the semester, my transcript is pretty ugly. If I don't pull through and end up getting failing grades, that's even worse.

I have talked to someone at the CFRC about grades on a transcript. He bascially told me that as long as I graduate, it's good enough for an officer (academic wise). That could be true, but I am quite concerned about marks being brought up during my interview for an officer position (if I have one). Also, AECs have to go through tough courses, so I am not surprised if the CFRC is disappointed about my grades.

On a side note, if I do end up failing some course(s), I would be done repeating those courses by late October or late July, depending on which course. If I do switch over to NCM, I could finish up my degree by taking distance education courses once I am finished with Basic and have a chance to settle down.

Preferences wise, I would still like Pilot or AEC, but if I do have to switch because of my own poor academic performance, so be it.

Once again, any thoughts on this would be much appreciated.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on April 02, 2008, 16:11:33
Kruggle,

Are you serious!?

If you can't figure this out on your own at this stage of your life I suggest you forget about pilot, AEC or any other officer trade for that matter.  Maybe joining as an NCM is the way for you to go so you can be led around by the hand and told what to do do and when to do it for the first few years of your career.  Even then CF NCMs, especially AC Ops, are expected to function on their own with little guidance and direction.

I know you do not know me and probably don't want to after this but here is my advise to you since you asked.  Suck it up!  Work your but off and cram for those exams and pass them.  If you don't succeed the first time, try again.  You don't get as far as you have and then quit.  If you want pilot or AEC you do everything in your power to get what you want and don't let others tell you what you should do.  It is your life!

If you can't figure this on your own then there is no room for you in the CF as an officer.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on April 02, 2008, 19:52:07
Wow...I won't say anything to that. 

     As for my own situation, I did my CFAT yesterday morning.  I did well above the minimums needed for every officer trade I'm eligible for except....yes you guessed it...AEC.  Apparently I was just under the mark.  I had a couple options.  Retake it and hope I do a little better or just go with my second choice (Logistics).  If I did rewrite the test, they would go with that mark whatever it was and I might end up doing worse.  On the other side I could do better and then move on with the process.  After discussing it a little more with the career counsellor I decided to go with my second choice as originally it was what I wanted to do first but had changed it as Log is very competitive to get into.  Anyway,  I was a little disappointed but am looking forward to moving along with the rest of this with my medical and interview next Monday.  Good luck to anyone else still going for this trade.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 02, 2008, 20:39:01
Airbrat, I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get your first trade choice. I can understand your reluctance to rewrite as well, but if you are happy with Logistics, then it's all good. I'm sure it isn't out of the range of possibility to do an OT at some point in your career should you decide that you would prefer AEC to Log later on.

Kruggle, I think Air4ce was a bit harsh with his/her 'advice', yet at the same time I understand the reasoning behind what s/he said. It would seem that your lack in self-confidence is a greater hindrance to a career as an officer than your low GPA. Officers are leaders. Too much self-doubt or insecurity will not serve you well in an officer trade. With that said, if you really want to be a pilot, then go for it. If you want to be an Aerospace Controller, go for it. The worst thing that can happen is you don't get picked up for your trade(s). If that happens, you can apply again for other trades, NCM or officer. (Someone correct me if this is false information, but it's what I was told.) Good luck with whatever you decide.

Air4ce - cool handle.  ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Deepinit on April 03, 2008, 13:36:47
If you check the list on this thread, the AEC trade apparently only requires SLT for Francophones:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,70923.0.html (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,70923.0.html)



That's odd. I know the post is from February of this year but I swore in last Wednesday at CFRC Toronto. My file states that I "WILL BE REQUIRED TO UNDERGO UP TO 33 WEEKS OF SECOND LANGUAGE TRG AT DET ELFC SAINT JEAN PREVIOUS TO OCCUPATIONAL TRG" (caps lock used as it appears on my file - not for emphasis or anything).

The guy next to me had the same thing written in his and he was signing up to be a Sig-Op. It doesn't bother me as another language is always a welcome skill to have to go along with my other two. Just giving you guys the heads up so you don't get all shocked when you swear in.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on April 03, 2008, 16:23:46
I just heard from someone that went through last year that you guys are the last group to have to do SLT.  The rest of us apparently won't be required to do so after basic.  Who knows though...they could be mistaken.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 08, 2008, 17:12:23
Hey everyone!

I just came back from my CFAT. I was nervous while waiting for the test but I was fine during the test.

We were all told to sit at the waiting area after we all finished the test. This girl who I talked to fairly breifly was called into another room while the rest of us kept on waiting. At this point, I got super nervous, as I thought maybe people who were called into the room had to choose different trades because of their CFAT scores. I was afraid that I would be called in too and sure enough, 5 minutes later, my name was also called and I was directed into this counselling room. Basically, I was told that I qualified for Air Nav and Pilot based on my CFAT scores, but not AEC because my score wasn't high enough. I asked a few questions and when I was about to agree with carrying on the application process for Air Nav, he looked at my file for a minute and asked me about my academics. He asked me what my degree is going to be in and whether I took a Math course at school or not. I told him my degree is in English and that I took a 3rd year Math at school in the past summer. He looked rather surprised and said, "third year math?! What was your mark?" I told him I think I got a B and he looked through my whole transcript. Later on, he said he thinks he can get me into AEC based on my degree. I was happy to hear that, but at the same time, I was puzzled. All Officer trades need to have degrees and my grades are not good at all, so why would my degree get me in? He went outside to ask someone about it and when he came back, he told me to go back to the waiting area until he got further clarification.

While I was in the waiting area, I looked at Air Nav's description in one of those binders. Honestly, it looked pretty interesting anyway so I wouldn't mind. Plus, he said he doesn't think Air Nav is closing, so I was happy enough to be qualified for that.

Suddenly, he came back and said, "We will continue your application for AEC." So, I asked him if my degree made a difference in that decision and he said, "We had an error on the print out from the computer, but your mark is definitely high enough."

HUH?!

I am definitely not complaining, but I went from being a little dissappointed to being happy about Air Nav and then being confused about the final decision. hah.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 08, 2008, 17:36:14
Kruggle, I suspect that there is some leeway with the CFAT scores. You obviously scored pretty high if you qualified for pilot and air nav, so I doubt it was a huge stretch to qualify for AEC. I'm actually surprised that AEC requires a higher score than pilot or air nav!

Keep us posted on your application process. When is your interview?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Airbrat on April 08, 2008, 20:08:43
The exact same thing happened to me after my CFAT except my counsellor wasn't able to somehow get me into AEC.  I too have an english degree and my marks weren't the greatest.  I also qualified for all the officer trades except AEC in which I was just under the mark for.  I'm going for my second choice still but makes me kinda cheesed to hear about that.  Good for you though...hope things continue to go well with the rest of your process.  Had my medical and interview this past Monday and all went well.  Just waiting to hear back on an offer now.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 08, 2008, 23:55:16
Based on what I think how I did on the CFAT, I think I probably got the worse mark on the English section. I didn't have enough time for it, but even if I did, I still wouldn't do well on it. I didn't even know what most of the words on the test meant so I had to guess more than half of the questions. English has always been my weakness in school and I'm getting a degree in it just to improve. The rest was pretty easy and I was confident that almost all my answers were correct. I had around 13-15 minutes left each for the 3 other sections so I went over the questions over and over again.

If there was a leeway for CFAT scores, I would suspect my English degree kind of make up for my horrible mark on the English section. The interesting part was how he looked for my Math mark though. Maybe AEC courses require more Math than English skills?

I am going to ask if I could go through Aircrew selection as well just to see if I fully qualify for Pilot and/or Air Nav. This way, I would have a higher chance of getting a job offer. Right now, I am happy to be safe with AEC.  :)

Celticgirl, I was directed to another person at the end so that I could book my medical and interview. Everyone who passed the test was told to call the CFRC in 3 weeks to book appointments as they are all full for the rest of the month. CFRC Vancouver is always so busy though so I think it is much easier for me to drop by and book an appointment instead.

Airbrat, I definitely know how you feel about this whole AEC thing. For the few minutes when I still thought I didn't make it into AEC, I was a little disappointed in my own ability I guess. I was happy about Pilot and Air Nav though so I wasn't sad or anything. At least you are doing quite well with the rest of your application. I still have medical and interview to get through!  :)

By the way, I had to fill out this security clearance form before the test. The lady in charge told us that those of us who have immediate family members currently working outside of Canada might take longer to do security clearance. She told us to talk to her after about our situation so that she could send an e-mail to Ottawa right away, but none of us got the chance as we didn't know where she went after we finished the test. Does anybody have experience with this?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on April 15, 2008, 12:05:16
I'm actually surprised that AEC requires a higher score than pilot or air nav!

Yes, AEC does require a higher score.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on April 15, 2008, 12:14:28
By the way, I had to fill out this security clearance form before the test. The lady in charge told us that those of us who have immediate family members currently working outside of Canada might take longer to do security clearance. She told us to talk to her after about our situation so that she could send an e-mail to Ottawa right away, but none of us got the chance as we didn't know where she went after we finished the test. Does anybody have experience with this?
What they actually do is called a 'pre-security screening'(unless changed since I left recruiting).  When the applicant has lived or worked a certain period(not sure how many months) outside Canada, or has immediate relatives living outside Canada the 'pre-security screening' has to be complete before further processing.  Depending on the countries the applicant has, or the relatives currently live in, can determine how long this screening can take.  So when necessary a 'no objections' to obtaining a security clearance has to be received from DPMSec before further processing the applicant.
I hope this helps, and doesn't further confuse anybody.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on April 15, 2008, 12:56:37
Yeah, the CFAT score needed for AEC is up there. You can imagine I was some distressed when I passed that, but didn't have the right vision cat eh? :P Oh well, laser surgery for me in 2 years and then I might see one of you around in the bunker (That is if any of you are going for Air Weapons, and if they let me switch into the trade haha.)

People like Celticgirl and Kruggle, once you finish your training out at the Nav Can school, let me know how it went! I'm still quite attached the the trade as it was my first choice and I'd be happy to hear from some people who actually got in. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 13:10:45
What they actually do is called a 'pre-security screening'(unless changed since I left recruiting).  When the applicant has lived or worked a certain period(not sure how many months) outside Canada, or has immediate relatives living outside Canada the 'pre-security screening' has to be complete before further processing.  Depending on the countries the applicant has, or the relatives currently live in, can determine how long this screening can take.  So when necessary a 'no objections' to obtaining a security clearance has to be received from DPMSec before further processing the applicant.
I hope this helps, and doesn't further confuse anybody.

This is what the hold-up is for me - the 'pre-security screening'. I have passed the CFAT, interview, and medical but because I lived and worked in Taiwan from 1998-1999, I have to await this clearance. My file manager said it can take up to 18 months and it's already coming up on two. I am trying to be patient, but I'm pretty certain I won't be waiting a year and a half. I'm no spring chicken, after all. ;)

What I am wondering now is with regards to trades and this security screening - if I were to go with a different trade and/or apply to the reserves, would I still need to await the clearance?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on April 15, 2008, 13:11:17

Other than the different systems or "rules" for each area, I discovered (via the interactive feature on the recruitment site) that IFR controllers work out of a terminal control centre, whereas VFR controllers work out of a control tower. I'm repeating this for others who may be wondering the same things, but who are afraid to ask a question here.


VFR controllers deal with the traffic that can be directed from the tower. This includes such facets as ground control, and VFR take offs, approaches, and landings. Their most important instruments are their eyes. VFR controllers do have instruments, but not nearly the same kind that they have down in the IFR control room.

On the IFR side, the 'terminal control center' as you have called it, is actually a dark room usually underground. Most of the lighting comes from the multitude of radar screens and radio stacks haha. I was in the IFR control room at Whidby Island NAS in the US on a tour, as well as the one at CFB Comox. The controllers there are responsible for aircraft flying at cruising altitude around or through the airspace, and also providing precision radar approach and direction for IFR aircraft. IFR controllers have access to their instruments under most limiting conditions suffered by VFR, such as fog, heavy rain, or just night.

Hope this makes the difference even more clear in terms of what each one does. If I got anything terribly wrong, I apologize. I don't know 100% how the military runs the air traffic control system. This is kind of a hodgepodge of what I know from civvie flying and what I know from researching the AEC trade in the forces.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 13:12:15
People like Celticgirl and Kruggle, once you finish your training out at the Nav Can school, let me know how it went! I'm still quite attached the the trade as it was my first choice and I'd be happy to hear from some people who actually got in. :)

I haven't even been offered a position yet, so you'll have to wait on that one for a while.  :P
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 13:17:20
VFR controllers deal with the traffic that can be directed from the tower. This includes such facets as ground control, and VFR take offs, approaches, and landings. Their most important instruments are their eyes. VFR controllers do have instruments, but not nearly the same kind that they have down in the IFR control room.

On the IFR side, the 'terminal control center' as you have called it, is actually a dark room usually underground. Most of the lighting comes from the multitude of radar screens and radio stacks haha. I was in the IFR control room at Whidby Island NAS in the US on a tour, as well as the one at CFB Comox. The controllers there are responsible for aircraft flying at cruising altitude around or through the airspace, and also providing precision radar approach and direction for IFR aircraft. IFR controllers have access to their instruments under most limiting conditions suffered by VFR, such as fog, heavy rain, or just night.

Hope this makes the difference even more clear in terms of what each one does. If I got anything terribly wrong, I apologize. I don't know 100% how the military runs the air traffic control system. This is kind of a hodgepodge of what I know from civvie flying and what I know from researching the AEC trade in the forces.

Thanks, ID. I actually have been studying up on this for the past two months and have a little binder filled with info on the various aspects of AEC/ATC. (Tres nerdy, huh?) ;) It's all pretty clear to me now, and I am definitely leaning towards VFR, but would be happy with IFR as well (weapons being my third choice, sorry Gazoo!).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on April 15, 2008, 13:38:55
I was being optimistic on your behalf here haha.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 13:41:40
I was being optimistic on your behalf here haha.

Optimism is good. A few prayers wouldn't hurt either.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on April 15, 2008, 13:46:34
This is what the hold-up is for me - the 'pre-security screening'. I have passed the CFAT, interview, and medical but because I lived and worked in Taiwan from 1998-1999, I have to await this clearance. My file manager said it can take up to 18 months and it's already coming up on two. I am trying to be patient, but I'm pretty certain I won't be waiting a year and a half. I'm no spring chicken, after all. ;)

What I am wondering now is with regards to trades and this security screening - if I were to go with a different trade and/or apply to the reserves, would I still need to await the clearance?
The screening is the same process no matter what the occupation or element choice.  Once again if I remember right the time period is ten years continuous in Canada, so maybe when you hit the ten year mark the process will no longer be required.  I know I had a couple of people in that position when I was in recruiting, and when they hit the ten year point in Canada we stopped the screening process.  To be sure ask someone at the recruiting centre.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 13:51:05
The screening is the same process no matter what the occupation or element choice.  Once again if I remember right the time period is ten years continuous in Canada, so maybe when you hit the ten year mark the process will no longer be required.  I know I had a couple of people in that position when I was in recruiting, and when they hit the ten year point in Canada we stopped the screening process.  To be sure ask someone at the recruiting centre.

Thanks for the info, Gazoo. Unfortunately, I am 13 months away from that 10-year mark.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 15, 2008, 14:25:49
What they actually do is called a 'pre-security screening'(unless changed since I left recruiting).  When the applicant has lived or worked a certain period(not sure how many months) outside Canada, or has immediate relatives living outside Canada the 'pre-security screening' has to be complete before further processing.  Depending on the countries the applicant has, or the relatives currently live in, can determine how long this screening can take.  So when necessary a 'no objections' to obtaining a security clearance has to be received from DPMSec before further processing the applicant.
I hope this helps, and doesn't further confuse anybody.

Thanks for your reply. I think the lady said if an applicant has lived or worked 6 months or under, it's fine. As for myself, my sister has been working outside of Canada for a few years now and she also declared non-residency.  :-\

I assume that they know who my family members are as they haven't asked me to provide any names or anything.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 15, 2008, 14:27:19
Yeah, the CFAT score needed for AEC is up there. You can imagine I was some distressed when I passed that, but didn't have the right vision cat eh? :P Oh well, laser surgery for me in 2 years and then I might see one of you around in the bunker (That is if any of you are going for Air Weapons, and if they let me switch into the trade haha.)

People like Celticgirl and Kruggle, once you finish your training out at the Nav Can school, let me know how it went! I'm still quite attached the the trade as it was my first choice and I'd be happy to hear from some people who actually got in. :)

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I won't pass my Medical actually. Sigh.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 15, 2008, 14:29:10
Thanks for the info, Gazoo. Unfortunately, I am 13 months away from that 10-year mark.

At least you know you will be good to go in under 13 months then. Better late than never.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 15:03:59
Thanks for your reply. I think the lady said if an applicant has lived or worked 6 months or under, it's fine. As for myself, my sister had been working outside of Canada for a few years now and she also declared non-residency.  :-\

I assume that they know who my family members are as they haven't asked me to provide any names or anything.

This can't be the same form I filled out then because they DID ask me to provide names of immediate family members along with many details about where they live and work. I also had to give the name, address, and phone number of a neighbour. I guess they want to know if I keep a well-manicured lawn and get my garbage out on time. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 15:04:41
Well, sorry to disappoint you, but I won't pass my Medical actually. Sigh.

What happened with your medical?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on April 15, 2008, 15:09:47


On the IFR side, the 'terminal control center' as you have called it, is actually a dark room usually underground.

Oh Yeah......where ?

I havent been to an underground military IFR facility yet.

Quote
as well as the one at CFB Comox.

Speaking of above ground IFRCC.......


 


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kincanucks on April 15, 2008, 15:17:07
New recruits want to hear from people 'in the know'.

Now that is an excellent point, isn't Intelligent Design?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 15, 2008, 15:35:21
What happened with your medical?

I haven't had my Medical exam yet, but I really don't think I will make it through. A month ago, I was curious so I went to take a food allergy test with my friend. To my surprise, I am sensitive to things like milk, eggs, wheat, gluten, peanut, and codfish. There goes a list of my favorite snacks.. PB&J sandwich, milk and chocolate muffin, fish and chips..etc..
If I didn't go take the test, I would never even find out that I am sensitive to these things. I have never even had a reaction to those things. I was told that if I restrict my diet for 3 months and re-introduce those things back into my diet, I MIGHT not be sensitive to them anymore.
Well, according to the threads in enrollment Medical, food allergy is a pretty big thing, but then sensitive isn't the same as allergic. I really dont know what the doctors in Borden are going to think. :-\
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on April 15, 2008, 15:58:59
Oh Yeah......where ?

I havent been to an underground military IFR facility yet.

Speaking of above ground IFRCC.......



Whidby Island's center was, from what I could tell, underground. Or at least it felt like it. We went down a lot of stairs to get there. OK, let me re-phrase, the IFRCC is not in a tower like the VFRCC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on April 15, 2008, 16:03:45
Might want to check on that, the reason why allergies are a big deal I think has to do with people who have sever allergies and need to be within range of a hospital in case of exposure. If it isn't going to kill you, it might not be a problem, but go to the medical anyways, and just tell them the facts. The PA or MO at the recruiting center should be making accurate notes on your file to send to Borden.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 15, 2008, 16:45:09
I haven't had my Medical exam yet, but I really don't think I will make it through. A month ago, I was curious so I went to take a food allergy test with my friend. To my surprise, I am sensitive to things like milk, eggs, wheat, gluten, peanut, and codfish. There goes a list of my favorite snacks.. PB&J sandwich, milk and chocolate muffin, fish and chips..etc..
If I didn't go take the test, I would never even find out that I am sensitive to these things. I have never even had a reaction to those things. I was told that if I restrict my diet for 3 months and re-introduce those things back into my diet, I MIGHT not be sensitive to them anymore.
Well, according to the threads in enrollment Medical, food allergy is a pretty big thing, but then sensitive isn't the same as allergic. I really dont know what the doctors in Borden are going to think. :-\

If you eat those foods and have never had a reaction, it may not be something that disqualifies you. Don't give up just yet. Go do your medical and tell the med tech about the tests. S/he will guide you from there. It could be something as simple as your doctor signing a form saying you are sensitive but not severely allergic. Stay positive!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 16, 2008, 18:12:07
Intelligent Design and Celticgirl, so I called my doctor this morning and she said the test I did was NOT the standard allergy test. It was just a test to see what I am sensitive to and she said that almost everyone is sensitive to something. It's just a matter of whether the individual takes the test to find out or not. She did not even recommend the actual allergy test as I had no indication that I was allergic to anything. I was so worried for 4 days for nothing!

I have been calling the CFRC trying to book my Medical Exam and interview for a few days with no luck. Today, however, when I got my own concern sorted out, I called the CFRC again to see if anyone there had a minute to pick up the phone. A lady picked up right when I called and I will have my Medical and Interview a week from today. What a good day! My application for AEC will go on as usual. Phew.


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on April 16, 2008, 18:20:25
This can't be the same form I filled out then because they DID ask me to provide names of immediate family members along with many details about where they live and work. I also had to give the name, address, and phone number of a neighbour. I guess they want to know if I keep a well-manicured lawn and get my garbage out on time. ;)

Maybe this is the form that I was supposed to fill out after I wrote my CFAT. I did go in the next day after my CFAT to try to find out and the lady who guided us through our CFAT happened to step outside of her room when I got to the reception area. I talked to her about it and she said she will give me a call once my file gets to her. Before I left, she asked for my name. When I gave her the necessary information, she winked and said, "I will remember you from now on."  ???
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on April 16, 2008, 19:49:41
I will have my Medical and Interview a week from today. What a good day! My application for AEC will go on as usual. Phew.

Good stuff! You have a lot more time to prepare for the interview than I did. Study up! :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on May 24, 2008, 14:53:29
Any updates from the AEC applicants? Kruggle? KJL? Deepinit?

I'm stalled by a couple of snags for the time being (medical and security). Just wondering how everyone else is progressing with their career aspirations.  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on June 01, 2008, 01:00:08
Hey Celticgirl,

There was blood in my urine sample when I did my medical exam, so I had to go see my family doctor for that. On top of that, I had to get my orthodontist to sign some forms. Just like the rest of the people who are applying for the aircrew, I had to get blood work, ECG, and eye exam done as well.

After a few weeks, I have finally managed to get everything done. I will drop by the CFRC next week to drop off some forms and ask for my application status as well.

What is the medical issue that is holding you up?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 01, 2008, 08:23:43
What is the medical issue that is holding you up?

I was a little overzealous checking things during my medical and one of the things I checked was Raynaud's based on a discussion I had had with my doctor years ago. I was denied because of Raynaud's even though I was never tested or formally diagnosed (and really had no clue this was something the CF would consider a serious medical issue, go figure). The letter from the DND said I don't meet the "common enrolment standard". I'm extremely healthy and now after months of working out, very fit, so it's a bit ludicrous to me. In any case, now I am awaiting an appointment with a rheumatologist (my family doctor referred me) so that I can be tested and I'm hoping for a negative result. It could take a while to get that appointment, though. In the meantime, I have contacted my CFRC and requested they keep my file open until I get the test results. I'm going to call again tomorrow to see if they are still keeping it open for me. I am concerned that if they close my file, any progress with the security clearance may be lost by the time I get them to (hopefully) re-open it when the test results are ready.

There is a little road not far from my boyfriend's place called "Patience Lane" and I told him I should probably move there for a while.  ;D

It sounds like you are making progress, Kruggle. That's great! I'm glad to hear that you are still plugging away at it. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on June 01, 2008, 13:50:12
Good on you for doing everything to keep your application going :)

When did you get the letter from DND? I'm surprised you weren't told to go get it checked out before your medical file was sent to Ottawa?

PS. To be honest with you, I didn't know what Raynaud's was until I saw your post and looked it up online.  :-[
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 02, 2008, 09:10:47
When did you get the letter from DND? I'm surprised you weren't told to go get it checked out before your medical file was sent to Ottawa?

I got the letter a few weeks ago. I did have to get my doctor to fill out a couple of forms after my CFRC medical, one re: migraines and the other re: Raynaud's. I didn't think anything of it, to be honest. My doctor just told them that I had told her my symptoms (years ago, while on a visit for something else) and she told me that based on the symptoms, I "probably" had Raynaud's phenomenon. She advised me to keep my hands warm in colder temperatures. That's all. I never pursued testing at the time to find out if I did, in fact, have this "phenomenon" because it was such a minor thing, and then when I saw Raynaud's in the long, long list of things on the medical form at the CFRC, I just checked it without realizing how grave all those checks really are. I'm floored that the DND would refuse someone based on this. Nonetheless, I hope to get it overturned a.s.a.p.  I haven't had those symptoms in years, so I think that the test results are almost guaranteed to be negative. I'm just kicking myself a little bit for my own stupidity on this one. I cost myself quite a bit of time in an already lengthy application process.  :-\

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on June 02, 2008, 17:14:56
It's interesting about having check boxes on the medical. My medical questionnaire was done orally. The PA just asked me questions about my medical history, but I never got a form with boxes to tick off that included anything like Raynaud's.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PMedMoe on June 02, 2008, 17:18:52
It's interesting about having check boxes on the medical. My medical questionnaire was done orally. The PA just asked me questions about my medical history, but I never got a form with boxes to tick off that included anything like Raynaud's.

It wasn't on the questionnaire I filled out for my PHE last year, either.
I'm wondering if this is a "new" thing, as in:  Someone on Basic said they couldn't go to the field in the winter because of having this condition.   ???
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 02, 2008, 18:39:30
It's interesting about having check boxes on the medical. My medical questionnaire was done orally. The PA just asked me questions about my medical history, but I never got a form with boxes to tick off that included anything like Raynaud's.

Mine was both the form with the check boxes and the oral interview (as well as a full checking-over, hearing test, etc.). The Warrant told me to first go through the list and check off anything that applied and that "we would discuss it afterwards", which we did, at length, while she took copious notes. My medical appointment lasted two full hours.  :P
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: X-mo-1979 on June 02, 2008, 18:46:05
Mine lasted 5 minutes.Look left...NEXT!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on June 02, 2008, 20:20:26
My medical was about an hour when you include the eye exam and audiogram. The actual history/ physical was only about 20 mins. I think handing people a list of possible conditions is bad because people read them, panic about "Oh I don't want to lie about anything." and then start checking off things that they might have, but aren't sure about haha. You'd be surprised how stressful a single piece of paper can end up being. :P That's why I like the way my PA did it.

We are however getting a bit off topic as this is now falling under the medicals heading as opposed to the AEC heading.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 03, 2008, 18:36:06
I think handing people a list of possible conditions is bad because people read them, panic about "Oh I don't want to lie about anything." and then start checking off things that they might have, but aren't sure about haha. You'd be surprised how stressful a single piece of paper can end up being. :P

You are preaching to the choir, my brother!  :P  :-X

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 09, 2008, 15:28:30
Hey, I'm a new member here applying to be an AEC - I was wondering if there's there any further testing past the CFAT to determine whether one is qualified for AEC?  As in extra interviews or aptitude tests?

This thread has been very helpful in answering my questions, so thank you all!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 09, 2008, 16:53:37
Hey, I'm a new member here applying to be an AEC - I was wondering if there's there any further testing past the CFAT to determine whether one is qualified for AEC?  As in extra interviews or aptitude tests?

This thread has been very helpful in answering my questions, so thank you all!

Just a good score on the CFAT is all you need. I took no additional tests for eligibility.

There may be an additional medical portion, though. I believe AEC needs to be suitable for aircrew.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 09, 2008, 17:18:35
Thanks for the quick reply.  The position description was pretty vague with respect to tests and interviews.

So if I'm correct - in AEC you take IAP/BOTC, then training in Cornwall?  No SLT anymore?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 09, 2008, 18:03:28
Thanks for the quick reply.  The position description was pretty vague with respect to tests and interviews.

So if I'm correct - in AEC you take IAP/BOTC, then training in Cornwall?  No SLT anymore?
Training in Cornwall will be after a period of OJT at an air base, during which you will be doing a Distance Learning package on core AEC foundations. The DL package is usually done in the 6 weeks prior to you departing for Cornwall, so that the knowledge is freshest when you arrive.

There's a thread elsewhere on these forums ref SLT. If English is your first language, I think you're good, as all pilots are required to be able speak English to ATC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 09, 2008, 18:05:40
Sorry - that's what I meant.  I realized that there was the DL package to finish.  Thanks for all the clarification!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: almost there on June 11, 2008, 17:16:18
There are of course different positions in both the Terminal (IFR) and Tower (VFR). AEC's (officers) are responsible for controlling VFR and IFR traffic.. AC Ops are responsible for PAR (Precsion Approach Radar) which works out of the terminal - Ground Controller (Tower) and data positions (both VFR and IFR) (basically inter unit coordinator, and recorder).

AND WHY IS AEC/ACOp listed as Air Force Support Trades? We are considered Air Ops (General).


Here is a picture of a terminal controller in Cold Lake:

(https://Milnet.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforce.forces.gc.ca%2F4wing%2Fphoto_gallery%2Fwallpaper%2F1115236050_pic1_ck200501870.jpg&hash=3d32b6872ce850c68028d13f27638214)

And here is a Tower:

(https://Milnet.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defence.gov.au%2Fopfalconer%2Fimages%2Fgallery%2F090503a%2FJPAU04MAY03DH14.jpg&hash=65cd59028edb7c14b3f5401ec72fb13b)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on June 11, 2008, 17:26:20

AND WHY IS AEC/ACOp listed as Air Force Support Trades? We are considered Air Ops (General).




Well, the other categories were maintainers and aircrew trades .....are you either one of those ?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: almost there on June 11, 2008, 17:31:42
Well, the other categories were maintaners and aircrew trades .....are you either one of those ?

Well AECs and ACOps are Aircrew... Just wondering as to why we were put in with the 'support trades'  as I'm new here.

And PS.. Yes I'm an ACOp
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on June 11, 2008, 17:33:56
Well AECs and ACOps are Aircrew...

Really...what do you fly on exactly ?

Look at the AWACS wings........those are not aircrew badges. Having a dozen or so guys in the trade that fly on AWACS does not make it an aircrew trade.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: almost there on June 11, 2008, 17:38:03
We are considered aircrew for physicals etc...

I'm not here to start a pissing contest with you... like I said I'm new here and just asked a question, my appoligies.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on June 13, 2008, 15:30:04
Having a dozen or so guys in the trade that fly on AWACS does not make it an aircrew trade.
CDN Aviator:
I have been participating in this form for a few years now, and  have rarely felt the need to get into a 'pissing' contest, but here goes.  I have been an AEC for over 30 years now.  If you are going to take a position and quote numbers, please get it right.  In our occupations right now between AEC's and ACOps we have three locations with flying positions; Germany, Oklahoma, and Alaska.  The number will occasionally vary but at any time we have close to 70 people in flying positions in those three locations.
Also, I really have no problem being included in the 'support trade' part of this forum because it is certainly easier than creating another category, but we are, and have been for many years an 'operational', not a support trade.
Hopefully this post doesn't upset too many people.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on June 13, 2008, 17:06:36
Just a minor correction to the last reply.
To answer 'Grando's' first question, AEC Kapp is right there is no further testing for AEC but it doesn't mean there won't be in the future.  Our graduation rate here at CFSACO isn't as high as it should be, nor as high as it used to be.
Secondly, when your IAP/BOTP is complete you would go to some airbase for a period of OJT.  Hopefully before you are finished 'basic', you will have decided which branch of AEC you prefer to go to.  This is necessary so we can decide which base is the most suitable to send you.  If for example you are destined to go to the 'Weapons' side of the occupation, it would make most sense to send you to a base where you could see it like North Bay, Cold Lake or Bagotville.
Assuming you are in North Bay, approx 60(plus) days before the scheduled start of your course here in Cornwall you would start your DL package(currently undergoing a major review).  Upon successful completion of DL there would be a few days off before proceeding to Cornwall to start either your IFR, VFR or Weapons training.
SLT doesn't seem to be an issue for us right now as our occupation is significantly below PML(preferred manning level).

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 13, 2008, 17:32:26
wow that's extremely helpful, thank you!

how long after basic would you start OJT?  what would you do between that time?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on June 13, 2008, 17:43:47
When you are finished basic, you would normally be sent directly to a base to start your 'OJT'.  Now I use the term'OJT' loosely.  Some bases(units) don't have a well defined program or plan for OJT, they simply keep the person busy until it is time to start your DL package, then you are off to Cornwall.
Now before you get worried, you will certainly get time off between finishing basic and officially starting OJT, but once you start your DL, you belong to us.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on June 13, 2008, 17:47:03
Sorry, I made a mistake.  You would start and complete(60 days) your DL, get a few days off then come to Cornwall.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 13, 2008, 17:50:16
awesome - this thread has answered nearly all of my questions

thanks for the info, and if I have any further queries I'll put them in this thread
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 19, 2008, 10:50:13
To answer 'Grando's' first question, AEC Kapp is right there is no further testing for AEC but it doesn't mean there won't be in the future.  Our graduation rate here at CFSACO isn't as high as it should be, nor as high as it used to be.

Just out of curiosity, Gazoo - What is the graduation rate? Also, why do you think it's not as high as it should be?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 19, 2008, 11:59:02
Additionally, what happens to the officers that don't get through CFSACO?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kincanucks on June 19, 2008, 12:10:55
Additionally, what happens to the officers that don't get through CFSACO?

Think Combat Arms where the action is!!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 19, 2008, 12:26:38
Additionally, what happens to the officers that don't get through CFSACO?

The 3 R's - Recourse, Remuster, Release.

I've had a few drinks with a couple AEC's who took the course more than once (and have passed their checkouts here), and I'm across the hall in the shacks from one who is on the receiving end of a remuster to Health Care Admin.

What happens to you at that point all depends on a number of factors.

The best advice is don't worry about failing right now, only worry about it if and when the time comes. Just put your best foot forward.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 19, 2008, 19:35:00
Of course I'm not worried about failing - it's more of a curiousity thing.

I predict that, if one isn't suitable for AEC as shown by their training, they wouldn't just get shown the door...?  That there would be some sort of system that would enable that individual to stay within the Forces?  Remuster presumably.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on June 19, 2008, 19:52:33
First I am somewhat uncomfortable discussing actual graduation or failure rates(percentages).  Knowing what the percentage is before arriving could put unnecessary pressure on students.  The most important fact is that we are very short in this occupation and need people faster than we can produce them.
The best advice I can give is study hard, practice effectively(quality, not quantity), and give us your best effort.  That is all we can ask for.
I will be posting a new topic later tonight showing our numbers right now, highlighting how short we are.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 19, 2008, 20:07:17
Well, with any luck on my medical I'll be BMOQ'ing-it-up near the end of August!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 19, 2008, 20:48:39
First I am somewhat uncomfortable discussing actual graduation or failure rates(percentages).  Knowing what the percentage is before arriving could put unnecessary pressure on students.

True enough. Had I known going into the CFAT that I needed a high score (higher than that for ANAV or pilot), I'd have been nervous. As it was, I didn't spend too much time thinking about it and did well. So I guess just working your hardest and doing your personal best is really the best advice of all.

I do recall reading that the pass mark was being elevated from 80% to 85%, however. Is there any truth to this bit of hearsay?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on June 19, 2008, 20:56:04
Well, with any luck on my medical I'll be BMOQ'ing-it-up near the end of August!

Good luck to you, Grando! I hope to be joining the trade at some point after you, perhaps January or May of next year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on July 04, 2008, 04:15:35
Just an update on my application.

I went to the recruiting centre on Monday to check on my medical file. The lady who has always been helping me with my file told me that the message that is attached to my file is very confusing and that she could not understand it. This other guy who works there told me that it's usually because there is some medical problem on my file and that I got denied. He told me that the reason why they couldn't really understand the message was because the reason for denial is not written on the file for privacy reasons, especially for girls. The lady then gave me a number to call the PA so that I could check on my file at home. She repeatedly told me to "call lots" so that I could get a hold of him ASAP.

After spending 2 months to get 6 medical forms signed by doctors and specialists, I knew that my medical file wouldn't be the easiest to handle. Right after I left the recruiting centre, I was quite sad and worried, as I believed that it was the end of the military dream for me. At the same time, however, I knew that I tried my best so I got over with it fairly quickly.

Today, after several attempts, I got a hold of the PA. I was very nervous about what he was about to say. Would it be about my hearing since I was almost an H3? Maybe something wrong with my eyes as I couldn't provide the necessary details from childhood? Maybe it's about blood in urine and low blood pressure combined with being a little underweight? Maybe it's because my braces are going to be a little too problematic? My heart was pounding when he told me to wait for a few minutes.

A minute later, he came back and said that my medical file for the common enrollment standard has been cleared. He told me to wait for a call from the admin. so that I can let them know when I am available to fly to the AUMB at Toronto for another medical test.

Right after I got off the phone, I couldn't stop smiling... ;D

Then suddenly I thought to myself, "Oh.. I didn't know that AECs are required to do another medical test. I thought it was only for ANAV and pilot..."

Either way, I am happy to get through another step in the application process.  :)

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on July 04, 2008, 04:28:12
Good work and congratulations!  I was sure that AECs didn't have to go to Toronto... do you have either ANAV or pilot as #2 or #3?

How long did it take between your CFRC sending your medical stuff to the RMO and when you found out?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on July 04, 2008, 04:51:23
Good work and congratulations!  I was sure that AECs didn't have to go to Toronto... do you have either ANAV or pilot as #2 or #3?

Thanks  :D
To answer your question, I have ANAV and pilot as second and third choices.

How long did it take between your CFRC sending your medical stuff to the RMO and when you found out?

I think around 2 weeks.

How is your application coming along?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on July 04, 2008, 05:01:26
If you didn't know already, the reason they're going to send you to Toronto is for your second and third choices.

I'm just waiting for my cardiologist to finish his report that my heart's in perfect condition, then it all gets sent to the RMO.  I took ANAV off my application when I found out I'd be waiting for the extra medical stuff.  I'm hoping to get in for the Sept. 1 BMOQ.  It seems you'll be around that timeline as well - good luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on July 04, 2008, 05:09:22
Thanks for the clarification.

Do you know if I would have to do the ANAV test as well then?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on July 04, 2008, 05:18:03
The written one?  I did mine at my CFRC/D prior to my telling them I wanted it taken off of my file.  I presume you'd do the same.

I'm almost certain you'll have to do the test - however, if you're interested in fast-tracking your application to AEC (since it seems you're completed it for AEC) you can get your CFRC to send it off, then finish your pilot/ANAV testing and send a second application in for those 2 trades.  That's what my CFRC was going to do for me had I stayed on the ANAV track.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on July 04, 2008, 07:50:20
Kruggle, that is great news! I'm glad things are moving for you again. I had my appointment with the specialist yesterday and got the green light (no Raynaud's) so a letter will be sent off to my family doctor very soon. The only hurdle that remains is the pre-security clearance. You would think that since I left Taiwan 9 years and 2 months ago that they would just waive the clearance, especially given how undermanned AEC is. In any case, I am hoping for Sept. 1 like Grando even though the pre-sec could put the kibosh on that.

Good luck Grando and Kruggle! Here's to hoping we all get an offer for Sept. 1st.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on July 04, 2008, 08:38:04
You would think that since I left Taiwan 9 years and 2 months ago that they would just waive the clearance, especially given how undermanned AEC is.

And after they do that someone will demand an exemption for "8 years 9 months" and after that someone will demand.........

Sorry, i know it sucks but 10 years is where the line is.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on July 04, 2008, 08:39:20
And after they do that someone will demand an exemption for "8 years 9 months" and after that someone will demand.........

Sorry, i know it sucks but 10 years is where the line is.

I know, I know.  :crybaby:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on July 04, 2008, 13:25:24
If you didn't know already, the reason they're going to send you to Toronto is for your second and third choices.

I'm just waiting for my cardiologist to finish his report that my heart's in perfect condition, then it all gets sent to the RMO.  I took ANAV off my application when I found out I'd be waiting for the extra medical stuff.  I'm hoping to get in for the Sept. 1 BMOQ.  It seems you'll be around that timeline as well - good luck!

For the aircrew medical, it is not just for her second and third choices. AECs do not have to write the aircrew selection exams, but they do have to pass the aircrew medical exams.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on July 04, 2008, 13:39:22
For the aircrew medical, it is not just for her second and third choices. AECs do not have to write the aircrew selection exams, but they do have to pass the aircrew medical exams.

My "aircrew medical" (for AEC) included a very detailed eye exam with an optometrist (they reimbursed me for that, fortunately) and some bloodwork. Is that what you mean by medical exams?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on July 04, 2008, 16:32:51
Kruggle, that is great news! I'm glad things are moving for you again. I had my appointment with the specialist yesterday and got the green light (no Raynaud's) so a letter will be sent off to my family doctor very soon. The only hurdle that remains is the pre-security clearance. You would think that since I left Taiwan 9 years and 2 months ago that they would just waive the clearance, especially given how undermanned AEC is. In any case, I am hoping for Sept. 1 like Grando even though the pre-sec could put the kibosh on that.

Good luck Grando and Kruggle! Here's to hoping we all get an offer for Sept. 1st.  :cheers:

Thanks, Celticgirl! And congrats on your medical results from yesterday.
I am actually also waiting for my pre-security clearance. It's the next biggest step I need to get through before I can be part of the military family. I was told that it could take a few years, but at least I am still moving along one step at a time.  :)

My "aircrew medical" (for AEC) included a very detailed eye exam with an optometrist (they reimbursed me for that, fortunately) and some bloodwork. Is that what you mean by medical exams?

Hmmm, part of the reason why it took me 2 months to sign those forms was becaues I had to go to an optometrist for an eye exam. That took around 6 weeks to set up an appointment. I was also required to do an ECG, some blood work, and an urinalysis. I wonder what the medical exam in Toronto will be consisted of.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on July 04, 2008, 18:47:36
Thanks, Celticgirl! And congrats on your medical results from yesterday.
I am actually also waiting for my pre-security clearance. It's the next biggest step I need to get through before I can be part of the military family. I was told that it could take a few years, but at least I am still moving along one step at a time.  :)

I found out that it is possible to "express" the pre-security clearance process so you can always inquire about that. I don't know how it works, but my fiance assures me it can be done so I'm going to ask about that at my CFRC when I get in to visit (I'm in NB for the next while). I will have to wait until next May at the very latest because that is the 10-year point from my return to Canada. Obviously, that's a worst case scenario. Best case being the pre-sec comes through in the next few weeks. I don't recall why you needed one, though. Were you born in China?

Hmmm, part of the reason why it took me 2 months to sign those forms was becaues I had to go to an optometrist for an eye exam. That took around 6 weeks to set up an appointment. I was also required to do an ECG, some blood work, and an urinalysis. I wonder what the medical exam in Toronto will be consisted of.

ECG...right, forgot about that one. I think I waited 2-3 weeks for the eye appointment. In the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on July 05, 2008, 01:07:42
Yup, that's what I meant by aircrew medical. All the extra goodies that you don't get done for the normal enrollment medical. It's basically the same tests as getting a Category 1 aviation medical certificate from Transport Canada.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on July 05, 2008, 03:12:26
For AEC you get a "aicrew medical" but only get an A4 as air factor in your medical category......Pilots and Navs need A1 and AES Op / FE needs A2
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kruggle on July 05, 2008, 03:47:26
Sorry, but I am still a little confused.

I have already obtained all the necessary test results for my AEC medical before my file was sent to Ottawa. Do they want to get further testing done for AEC in Toronto? Or am I going there to see if I am medically suitable for pilot and air nav?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on July 05, 2008, 12:14:46
Sorry, but I am still a little confused.

I have already obtained all the necessary test results for my AEC medical before my file was sent to Ottawa. Do they want to get further testing done for AEC in Toronto? Or am I going there to see if I am medically suitable for pilot and air nav?

DRDC medical testing in Toronto is only for Pilot and Nav.

However, for all personel requiring an air factor other that A5, your aircrew medical file gets sent to DRDC in Toronto for review and final aproval of your air factor.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on August 01, 2008, 08:16:58
Don't forget about the E3-F, Gazoo.  One lucky controller gets to spend a tour in France.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on August 01, 2008, 14:53:15
Yes, I completely forgot about that one.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on September 20, 2008, 22:56:26
I suspect there are more AECs flying right now than ANAVs; certainly on a percentage of PML anyway. Regardless, AECs are treated as aircrew due to the nature of control duties having many of the same physiological demands as flying. This extends itself beyond just the medicals into areas such as crew duty rest, restrictions on alcohol use and nutritional support (think "between meal supplements").
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 21, 2008, 03:13:46
having many of the same physiological demands as flying.

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: h3tacco on September 21, 2008, 15:49:20
I suspect there are more AECs flying right now than ANAVs;

Just curious but what do you think are the percentages for AECs and ANAVs in flying billets. I've never seen the numbers so I honestly don't know but I would guess that around 75% of the ANAV trade at the Capt level are in flying billets and maybe 50% at the Major level. Again, I've never seen any numbers but I would think the AEC trade would closer to 30 - 40% mark.   
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on September 22, 2008, 08:26:35
I don't think it'd be that high for flying AECs.

Out of 220ish AECs, we have approx:

Tinker: 10ish
Alaska: 2 or 3
Germany: 10ish
France: 1

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on September 22, 2008, 11:13:22
Cdn Aviator... if it bothers you that AECs are considered Aircrew that is your problem. If you were chaffing at the use of the adverb "many" then I acquiesce and change it to "some", as the physical demands are certainly not the same... except when we spin in our chairs to see who can get the most revolutions on one push.

h3tacco, I don't actually know the numbers for AECs and ANAVs. It was meant as tongue in cheek given the large number of Navs that don't actually navigate... but I suppose they fly so I should retract that as well.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 22, 2008, 22:31:01
Cdn Aviator... if it bothers you that AECs are considered Aircrew that is your problem.


It doesnt bother me, it puzzles me. When you are required to take AMT and SERE and have to endure things like 6 hours at 300 feet in bad weather, being bounced around like a pinball while breathing in cordite smoke at 2am after 3 days of min crew rest then maybe i would understand.

In the mean time i'll just keep watching the guys in the tower pick their nose on FLIR until i go flying ( something aircrews do).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on September 22, 2008, 23:05:43
being bounced around like a pinball while breathing in cordite smoke

I have no doubt that you were inhaling something, but it certainly wasn't smoke from cordite, which is smokeless and used as a propellant, not making smoke - and hasn't been produced in years.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 22, 2008, 23:07:27
I have no doubt that you were inhaling something, but it certainly wasn't smoke from cordite, which is smokeless and used as a propellant, not making smoke - and hasn't been produced in years.

Who said i was making smoke ?

Whatever it is, it does propel stuff, makes smoke and burns when you get a wiff of it.

 Maybe you have heard of JAU-22s ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on September 23, 2008, 10:57:28
It doesnt bother me, it puzzles me.

Puzzled? That’s why we have AECs… to tell pilots what to do when they get puzzled. That aside, your puzzlement is either a clear reflection of your desire to be witty over constructive or tied to the significant delta between the intellectual selection criteria between AECs and PLTs. The fact of the matter is the aircrew designation for AEC protects the flying community as much as it does the controllers. After being bounced around like a pinball while breathing in cordite smoke at 2am after 3 days of min crew rest let’s see if you would prefer to have a PAR approach in IFR conditions managed by a controller who isn’t governed by all the regulations that come with the aircrew designation.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on September 23, 2008, 12:01:07
Puzzled? That’s why we have AECs… to tell pilots what to do when they get puzzled. That aside, your puzzlement is either a clear reflection of your desire to be witty over constructive or tied to the significant delta between the intellectual selection criteria between AECs and PLTs. The fact of the matter is the aircrew designation for AEC protects the flying community as much as it does the controllers. After being bounced around like a pinball while breathing in cordite smoke at 2am after 3 days of min crew rest let’s see if you would prefer to have a PAR approach in IFR conditions managed by a controller who isn’t governed by all the regulations that come with the aircrew designation.

Don't let the "flying" comments fool you - he's not a pilot.  ;D  I would have to agree that AECs being given the "aircrew designation" makes sense. They do, after all, contribute directly to the safety of all flights in the CF, including the ones Cdn Aviator is on. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 12:19:28
Don't let the "flying" comments fool you - he's not a pilot. 

Something that could have  been gathered very quickly by looking at my profile. Are you saying in dont fly ? If that the case, please inform me as to what i did for 9.8 hours yesterday.

And we did a PAR yesterday btw.......just for training.


Quote
They do, after all, contribute directly to the safety of all flights in the CF, including the ones Cdn Aviator is on. ;)

I never once said otherwise.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kincanucks on September 23, 2008, 12:29:24
Don't let the "flying" comments fool you - he's not a pilot.  ;D  I would have to agree that AECs being given the "aircrew designation" makes sense. They do, after all, contribute directly to the safety of all flights in the CF, including the ones Cdn Aviator is on. ;)


Comment removed as I was in a foul mood when I wrote it.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on September 23, 2008, 14:50:21
Are you saying in dont fly ?

No, I never said you don't fly. I fly, too. WestJet usually.  ;D


Comment removed as I was in a foul mood when I wrote it.

I missed it. Perhaps that is a good thing. In any case, I think CA has pretty thick skin, so no worries. :D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 14:55:55
I fly, too. WestJet usually.  ;D



So what do you think i do in the airplane, just sit there ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on September 23, 2008, 15:04:06
So what do you think i do in the airplane, just sit there ?

Honestly, I don't know much about your MOC, but feel free to educate me on it. I'd love to learn. I did recently watch a cool YouTube video about it, though.  ;D

Cool video - Almost makes me want to be an AES Op (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlGoJ87YvWM) ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on September 23, 2008, 17:09:12
Just curious but what do you think are the percentages for AECs and ANAVs in flying billets. I've never seen the numbers so I honestly don't know but I would guess that around 75% of the ANAV trade at the Capt level are in flying billets and maybe 50% at the Major level. Again, I've never seen any numbers but I would think the AEC trade would closer to 30 - 40% mark.   

I went to the career managers site on EMAA and compiled the numbers for ANAV and AEC, it includes all ranks up to Col:
ANAV:Current # of positions - 703
         Current # unfilled       - 147
          # filled                      - 556
I also counted the number of ANAV's who's current position is an actual flying/aircrew(navigating) position, and not some type of staff job.
Current # flying/aircrew  -  165
So in summary 28% of ANAV's fill an aircrew(flying) position

AEC: Current # of positions - 527
Current # unfilled       - 102
# filled                      - 425
I also counted the number of AEC's who's current position is an actual control position(IFR, VFR, and Weapons), and not some type of staff job as well as the number that fly(AEW).
Current # controlling - 227 (53% of filled positions)
Current # flying        -  46  (included in # of controlling pos.)
So in summary 53% of Aerospace Controllers fill an operational position
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on September 23, 2008, 17:30:44
I just re-checked the spreadsheet and counted 122 Capt/Lt ANAV's that fly(NAV).  The criteria I used to compare the numbers for ANAV and AEC were the same.  Any person filling a training position in other than an operational sqn didn't count as either a navigator that navigates, or a controller that controls.  As an example those instructing at Nav school in Wpg, as well as those of us at CFSACO Cornwall don't count(operationally).
If there are any flaws in my logic, let me know.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 17:53:34
  As an example those instructing at Nav school in Wpg,

Quote
If there are any flaws in my logic, let me know.

Nav instructors at CFANS fly regularly and are in receipt of aircrew allowance. Thus yes, they count as they are posted to a flying billet.

After all, the querry was :

Just curious but what do you think are the percentages for AECs and ANAVs in flying billets.

Furthermore, navigators posted as instructors to 404 Sqn are not only flying but operational as well. Thats why it is an OTU ( Operational training unit ). I dont know if it is the same for 406 Sqn ( CH-124 training unit).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on September 23, 2008, 19:19:27
Nav instructors at CFANS fly regularly and are in receipt of aircrew allowance. Thus yes, they count as they are posted to a flying billet.

OK, CFANS positions add 20 Capt, 4 Maj and 1 LCol

After all, the querry was :
Furthermore, navigators posted as instructors to 404 Sqn are not only flying but operational as well. Thats why it is an OTU ( Operational training unit ). I dont know if it is the same for 406 Sqn ( CH-124 training unit).

The 404 positions were counted, as well as 405, 407, 413, 423, 424, 426, 435, 436, 437, 442, 443, CC 552(AEW), CC NAEWF, and MPEU.
I don't know why, but for some reason I omitted 406 Sqn(where I started my career on OJT as PLT), my apologies.  With 406 there are an additional 2 Maj's and 10 Capts
So if my math is correct the total for Capt/Lt is 152.

Thanks for the help CDN Aviator.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 19:25:47
I suspect there are more AECs flying right now than ANAVs;


So then,


202 Navigators are in flying billets

and

46 AEC are in flying billets

?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on September 23, 2008, 20:02:18
Who said i was making smoke ?

Nobody said you were making smoke.  All I said was that cordite was smokeless, and that it certainly wasn't used for the purpose of making smoke.

Quote
Whatever it is, it does propel stuff, makes smoke and burns when you get a wiff of it.

Then it probably isn't cordite as you originally suggested, since that has been out of production for years.

Quote
Maybe you have heard of JAU-22s ?

Can't say I have, but it's safe to say that they don't employ cordite.

And we did a PAR yesterday btw.......just for training.

To be entirely correct, the pilots carried out a Precision Radar Approach.  You were along for the ride.   ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 20:14:33


To be entirely correct, the pilots carried out a Precision Radar Approach.  You were along for the ride.   ;)


Even on a PAR, I am busy with the radar / AAI monitoring air traffic on the aproach because on rare occasions, controllers have neglected to pass on vital information or they just didnt know about them. So, while i'm not controlling the aircraft, i'm busy on aproach regardless. When i see a conflict between us and another aircraft ( wether on a PAR or otherwise) i'm trained for and required to advise the pilots as to avoiding action.

Just a bit more than along for the ride......... ::)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on September 23, 2008, 20:44:26
Even on a PAR, I am busy with the radar / AAI monitoring air traffic on the aproach because on rare occasions, controllers have neglected to pass on vital information or they just didnt know about them. So, while i'm not controlling the aircraft, i'm busy on aproach regardless. When i see a conflict between us and another aircraft ( wether on a PAR or otherwise) i'm trained for and required to advise the pilots as to avoiding action.

Just a bit more than along for the ride......... ::)

Rare occasions, indeed.   :)

Sooooo...during a PAR, you're (more or less) carrying out the same functions you do while on patrol (maintaining a radar picture/situational awareness/etc.).  Now, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'll admit I'm curious why you'd mention the fact that your crew did a PAR yesterday, when your duties during a PAR don't differ that much from when the aircraft is doing a typical patrol?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on September 23, 2008, 21:05:11
Rare occasions, indeed.   :) 

We are blessed , IMHO, with some good controllers here so it is indeed very rare.

Quote
but I'll admit I'm curious why you'd mention the fact that your crew did a PAR yesterday,

Only because this was mentioned by another poster.

let’s see if you would prefer to have a PAR approach in IFR conditions

No other reasons........
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on September 23, 2008, 22:59:12
Aviator, what are you going for here?

Trying to prove that your job is so much cooler than ours? 

That it's a good thing you're QC'ing the PAR Controller, because sometimes he's too busy picking his noses to point out traffic, and then you jump in and save the day?

Ok great, you win.   Thanks for gracing us lowly AECs with your presence.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on September 24, 2008, 11:09:44
So then,
202 Navigators are in flying billets
and
46 AEC are in flying billets
?

That point was already conceded. Regardless, the genesis of my quip was that of those 200+ ANAVs flying only a small percentage are actually "navigating". Time for a name change. The point Gazoo has made is that a majority of AECs are in operational positions unlike their ANAV brethren. That might be an point of interest to anyone considering these occupations as a career choice.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on September 24, 2008, 13:00:52
That point was already conceded. Regardless, the genesis of my quip was that of those 200+ ANAVs flying only a small percentage are actually "navigating". Time for a name change. The point Gazoo has made is that a majority of AECs are in operational positions unlike their ANAV brethren. That might be an point of interest to anyone considering these occupations as a career choice.

Its coming, I've seen a few emails that are floating around.  CFANS is changing its name too.  But until its official... :-X
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: h3tacco on September 24, 2008, 18:20:08
Thanks to Gazoo for doing the work and actually bringing some numbers to the discussion. Having not seen any numbers before it does put things in perspective. I think you have probably missed another handful of ANAV flying positions. The guys at CATS (EW Support Section or 414 Sqn whatever they are called) and I know at least in 12 Wing there are number of flying billets in Wing HQ ie Wing Standards and MH Set. Not sure about other wings though. Central Flying School and AETE also each have a couple ANAV flying billets. And then there a couple of exchange flying billets, MH has one, I think the AM has one or two (USAF and RAF) and I think LRPA also has two or three (2 USN and one RAF?).  But these are relatively small numbers.

I have worked with AECs in the past and have almost always had positive experiences. I know there has been some tension between the trades in past but I think that has mostly to do with personality issues on both sides. As to which trade is more operational. One, does it really matter and two, is the Tower controller in Shearwater more operational than the 406 Nav Instructor conducting flight ops at the same air field? I don't think so. ANAVs almost always go to an operational squadron following CFANS. Regardless if that is Sea Kings, Herc or Auroras, they will deploy operationally quite extensively for that first tour.

As for the Air Navigator name change I have heard about that since 1998. Navigation for Sea King TACCOs has always been a small portion of the job, and in reality overland and in IMC situations most of the navigating is handled by the Pilots. Over the water is a different story. As for what the trade is called, the grown ups can change it to whatever they want, people don't understand what ANAVs do now and I don't think a name change will fix it. Nor do I think it will change what we do. 

Food for thought. In the RAAF they have recently grouped Air Defence Controllers and Navigators into a single trade called Air Combat Officer. Air Combat Officers will preform TACCO duties on the P-3 and its replacement, they will serve as WSOs in F-18Fs, they will continue to fill a seat on the C-130Hs, they will man the controller seats in the Wedgetail AWACs, they will man ground based Weapons Controller billets, and they will man UAV billets. Quite a a diverse trade. I doubt you'll much cross flow between different jobs. The RAAF still maintains a distinct ATC trade. For the CF, since ATC and Air Weapon Controllers merged I do not think we will see AEC and ANAV merge but there is some similarity between the skills required for AECs and ANAVs. AECs feel free to disagree.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on September 24, 2008, 19:13:32
No problem, I actually like working spreadsheets(did lots in recruiting).  You may be right, I may have missed a few flying positions, but I do remember including some EW positions although I'm not sure which sqn they showed up under.

You are correct, there has been tension between the occupations for a long time and I don't think it will change any time soon.  I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.  It shows me that we both have people in our respctive occupations that are passionate in their beliefs and ideas about the future.  I know there are those on both sides that will disagree with me, but I believe we will soon be one occupation, but not in the time I have left(retiring soon).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on September 25, 2008, 18:12:45
Food for thought. In the RAAF they have recently grouped Air Defence Controllers and Navigators into a single trade called Air Combat Officer. Air Combat Officers will preform TACCO duties on the P-3 and its replacement, they will serve as WSOs in F-18Fs, they will continue to fill a seat on the C-130Hs, they will man the controller seats in the Wedgetail AWACs, they will man ground based Weapons Controller billets, and they will man UAV billets. Quite a a diverse trade. I doubt you'll much cross flow between different jobs. The RAAF still maintains a distinct ATC trade. For the CF, since ATC and Air Weapon Controllers merged I do not think we will see AEC and ANAV merge but there is some similarity between the skills required for AECs and ANAVs. AECs feel free to disagree.

I think this is genius.  There are far more similarities between air weapons controllers and air navs, than with ATC.   I'm a weapons controller, and I find it a bit silly that we did our training with the ATCs.  I  spent two months learning ATC stuff that I'll never use again.  Besides talking to jets, how are our jobs similar?

Like you mentioned, Navs are in CF-18 EWO positions - that's something that's quite similar to some of the requirements of a weapons controller.  No, we don't work jammers on a daily basis, but EW is a huge part of our job.

Aboard the AWACS, air weapons controllers can fill controller, surveillance, and electronic combat positions.  Seems like a lot of crossover with navs. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Formulasteel on September 25, 2008, 22:04:24
This is my first post on here.....so here goes. I'm applying for Aerospace Control Officer, and I was wonder how long it takes from starting basic training to the point you are posted somewhere, and your family joins you there? Basically I'm wondering when I should put my house for sale and have my wife give notice at her job.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: George Wallace on September 25, 2008, 22:13:45
Perhaps you ought to read the topics on this subject.  They cover the whole breadth of the Trade.  Try a further SEARCH of "AEC"
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 2fly on September 25, 2008, 23:46:00
So what do you think i do in the airplane, just sit there ?

My vote is on STAIRMASTER.

 :rofl:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on September 26, 2008, 09:33:12
I'm applying for Aerospace Control Officer, and I was wonder how long it takes from starting basic training to the point you are posted somewhere, and your family joins you there? Basically I'm wondering when I should put my house for sale and have my wife give notice at her job.

It will usually take more than a year before you will be posted somewhere your family can join you.  You will do basic training(approx 3 months), you will go somwhere on OJT(3-6 months or more, depends on how many students waiting trg).  While you are on OJT, you will take a 60 day Distance Learning(DL) course. You will do your course in Cornwall(3-6 months), then either get your first posting or possibly do you initial qualification at some base then get posted.
There will be plenty of notice given when you are close to being allowed to put house for sale, etc.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on September 26, 2008, 19:18:13
This is my first post on here.....so here goes. I'm applying for Aerospace Control Officer, and I was wonder how long it takes from starting basic training to the point you are posted somewhere, and your family joins you there? Basically I'm wondering when I should put my house for sale and have my wife give notice at her job.

Formulasteel, there's a lot of info on this thread: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,68321.0.html (http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/index.php/topic,68321.0.html)  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 01, 2008, 10:54:07
I'm a weapons controller, and I find it a bit silly that we did our training with the ATCs.  I  spent two months learning ATC stuff that I'll never use again.   

It was silly considering the bottleneck it created in production. That has been fixed. Other than what is offered in D/L all AEC training at CFSACO is now discipline specific.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on October 02, 2008, 18:41:24
I don't believe the bottleneck has been fixed, Aerospaced.

Students are pegged as either weapons or ATC before they go to Cornwall, and do their DL accordingly.  How do they know if they're going to be a successful weapons controller based on a bunch of written tests?

We've decreased the length of the courses, but failure rate is still high.  How does that help?

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 02, 2008, 21:33:33
written tests?  bah.   haha.  No unfortunately they don't even give us written tests to try to find out what we'd be better at.  This is how they do it:

Career Manager:  Which avenue would you like to go?
Me:  Well Sir, I don't really know a whole lot about either.
Career Manager:  Ok I think you'd be a good IFR controller.
Me:  Ok.

haha.  Obvious not exactly the conversation, but its unfortunate we're not given somewhat of an introduction into them before we're asked to make a preference.  But on the other hand, us AEC folk will have a chance to do all three before our careers are over.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on October 02, 2008, 22:04:23
  But on the other hand, us AEC folk will have a chance to do all three before our careers are over.

That's not necessarily true.  I'm weapons, and I'll always be weapons.  I think if you want to do the conversion course, that's a different story.  But it's not mandatory, and if you're content doing what you're doing (especially if you're ATC) then you're pretty much going to stay there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 02, 2008, 23:18:14
Yeah Judy you're right.  Most ATC's I know have done both (IFR and VFR) though and some have done all three.  So you're right in that you probably won't switch from AW to ATC unless you want, but within ATC you will do both.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 03, 2008, 15:48:12
I don't believe the bottleneck has been fixed, Aerospaced.
Students are pegged as either weapons or ATC before they go to Cornwall, and do their DL accordingly.  How do they know if they're going to be a successful weapons controller based on a bunch of written tests?
We've decreased the length of the courses, but failure rate is still high.  How does that help?

What does discipline assignment have to do with bottlenecks? Production capacity has gone from 48 AECs per year to 90 in the last year. I'd say the bottleneck is fixed. However, you are right, the current way people are assigned to a discipline is not the best and that is being fixed as well. If you are suggesting in-house core provided candidates with a better exposure than D/L then perhaps you are right. But in-house core caused its own problems. Moving core from in-house to D/L was a means to fix the bottleneck issue. Perhaps not ideal but very necessary to fix the AEC manning problem. However, D/L may soon go the way of dinosaur and be replaced with real instructor led crses in each discipline. It won't be a return to a CFSACO type Core though. Regardless, the proposed courses combined with some OJT should give candidates a better chance of identifying what discipline they would like. The fact that as an occupation we actually take seriously the candidate's input on their discipline choice should be seen as a positive. That exists now and will continue even after the proposed changes are instituted.

Course lengths for each specific discipline have not decreased. In fact they have increased a bit. Failure rates are still high (35-40%) because there is no selection testing at the recruitment level. Currently AECs candidates must simply pass the CFAT test, albeit at high level (60th percentile vice 38th for GSO/Pilot). The problem is the CFAT test doesn't screen well enough for the aptitudes required to be an AEC. This lack of selection testing is being fixed. In particular, during the last two years research has been conducted on every new AEC candidate. They were tested upon arrival in Cornwall then their graduation results analysed by research scientists. The results of that research have now progressed to where a trial run of a new AEC selection test will be conducted at the aircrew selection centre (ACS) within the next month or so. The goal is to harmonise all "aircrew" type selection (Pilot, Nav and AEC) at ACS. This new AEC Selection test will have real cut-off scores that will ensure candidates that proceed to Cornwall will be of a calibre likely to succeed. However, back to your original point... even with a well researched selection test with real cut-off scores the differences in aptitude requirements for VFR/IFR/Wpns are quite subtle and I don't think we ill ever get to a point where we will have a test good enough to differentiate between them. We will definitely get to a place where we can tell candidates in they are likely to succeed but not to a the point where we can direct them to a specific discipline... possible but it will take considerable more research. We will have to be satisfied that once the candidates have passed through our selection test filter they get few good courses to provide background in each discipline, then with some OJT, hopefully at an operational wing ,that they will be able to offer us a reasoned choice and that we can accommodate that choice given the needs of the service.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 03, 2008, 22:17:06
The fact that as an occupation we actually take seriously the candidate's input on their discipline choice should be seen as a positive. That exists now and will continue even after the proposed changes are instituted.

At what stage in the process do we submit our preferences?

Quote
The results of that research have now progressed to where a trial run of a new AEC selection test will be conducted at the aircrew selection centre (ACS) within the next month or so. The goal is to harmonise all "aircrew" type selection (Pilot, Nav and AEC) at ACS. This new AEC Selection test will have real cut-off scores that will ensure candidates that proceed to Cornwall will be of a calibre likely to succeed.

What happens to those who don't meet the cut-off? Will they be re-coursed? Will this test happen before or after the OJT/DL phase? Obviously, candidates would rather know whether or not they were continuing on to CFSACO earlier rather than later.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 03, 2008, 23:33:57
We submit our preferences during basic training (or atleast you should).  This test he speaks of happens before you're accepted (a la pilots and navs).  Unfortunately there are only maybe 4 questions on the CFAT that are pertinent to our occupation.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on October 04, 2008, 00:32:10


What happens to those who don't meet the cut-off? Will they be re-coursed? Will this test happen before or after the OJT/DL phase? Obviously, candidates would rather know whether or not they were continuing on to CFSACO earlier rather than later.

Aircrew selection center happens at the recruting stage. At that point, applicants have not normaly received offers yet. If AEC goes the Trenton route, i think it would be fair to say that at that point, people have not been enrolled yet.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 04, 2008, 08:50:13
We submit our preferences during basic training (or atleast you should).  This test he speaks of happens before you're accepted (a la pilots and navs). 

OK, that's good. I wonder, though, how many AECs know they will be submitting their preferences during basic training? I only learned from this site, not from the RC. If I had gone by what I was told at the RC and what is on the CF recruiting site, I would still believe that I will have about 7-8 months of SLT to do after BMOQ and then 7 months at CFSACO, neither of which is the case anymore.

Along with all of these changes, sharing of information with applicants and candidates should be a priority, too.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 04, 2008, 09:17:35
I agree with you Celticgirl, I went into basic not knowing the difference between the three occupations were.  Fortunately for me, I/he chose the best route for me to take in hindsight anyway.  And yeah in a perfect world the emphasis would be on communication letting applicants know what to expect, and possibly even some information on the different routes to take so you can make more of an educated guess, unfortunately the information isn't out there yet.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 10, 2008, 18:04:13
Did the RC make the AEC interactive recruitment DVD available? (Not just the AEC video but the entire interative DVD) It is pretty informative as it was done by CFSACO with the help of the CF Mulitmedia Services.

Currently, stream preferences are solicited by AF AEC Training while the candidate is on OJT prior to D/L. A concerted effort is made to give candidates what they want. However, if everyone asks for VFR they are not going to get it.

As to the RC and Website info.... well, the training system has changed much in the last year and will change again in 2009. It is hard for them to keep up to date with the changes.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 10, 2008, 19:41:00
Did the RC make the AEC interactive recruitment DVD available? (Not just the AEC video but the entire interative DVD) It is pretty informative as it was done by CFSACO with the help of the CF Mulitmedia Services.

Yes, they did in my case, and it inspired me to put this trade as my #1 choice. ;)

Quote
Currently, stream preferences are solicited by AF AEC Training while the candidate is on OJT prior to D/L. A concerted effort is made to give candidates what they want. However, if everyone asks for VFR they are not going to get it.

That's understandable, but I do think it's good that there is a "concerted effort" to give us what we want, even if it's not always possible.

Quote
As to the RC and Website info.... well, the training system has changed much in the last year and will change again in 2009. It is hard for them to keep up to date with the changes.

It will change again in 2009? Just when I had things all figured out.  :P  As for the website, some basic info does need to be updated, like the fact that SLT is no longer required after basic for most trades. For mature applicants especially, the amount of time one is going to be away (from family) on training does matter.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 10, 2008, 19:46:37
@Kruggle...Haven't heard anything from you in a while. Any word?

Grando and I are hoping to see you at the Mega in January, aren't we Grando?  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on October 10, 2008, 20:11:14
Absolutely!  I'm looking forward to being in tip-top shape come the end of April!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on October 11, 2008, 14:33:24
I haven't said much around here in a very long time after I got chucked into Air Support for ROTP, but now things might be going my way again. I was talking to my optometrist who told me in about a year, I will be able to have my laser eye surgery done! That means I will be able to qualify for AEC once again! My heart is still with this trade and so I am going to see what needs to be done to get myself there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 11, 2008, 21:32:06
I haven't said much around here in a very long time after I got chucked into Air Support for ROTP, but now things might be going my way again. I was talking to my optometrist who told me in about a year, I will be able to have my laser eye surgery done! That means I will be able to qualify for AEC once again! My heart is still with this trade and so I am going to see what needs to be done to get myself there.

ID, if it's what you really want, go for it! I'm wondering though...why do you have to wait a year for the surgery?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: stryte on October 11, 2008, 21:40:38
ID, if it's what you really want, go for it! I'm wondering though...why do you have to wait a year for the surgery?

ID, correct me if I am wrong but I imagine you are forced to wait a year in order to ensure your prescription is done changing significantly. I myself have been waiting for that very reason. Luckily, I had my eye exam a little over a week ago and I was happy to learn it has ceased changing. Now I am just saving up the $2990 needed to do Lasik on both eyes.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on October 13, 2008, 02:04:53
That's essentially it. They want me to turn 21 before I can get it done to make sure my eyes have stopped changing, even though my prescription has been solid for the past 2 years now. My optometrist said that because of that I might be able to get in a bit early. It will have to be taken a bit at a time, and be determined based on my next eye exam. I'm rather excited about the idea, but I am expecting a hassle to get through the admin portion of it since I'm already in...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bossmanmj on October 20, 2008, 16:26:24
Here's a shift away from courses & the like...

I was wondering what the odds are for an AEC to be posted to Gilenkirschen Germany to serve with NATO AWACS?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Judy on October 20, 2008, 18:43:44
If you're an air weapons controller, then the odds are quite good.  I think there are about 30 weapons controllers in GK right now.

We're very lucky in that we have a lot of OUTCAN postings, both NATO and USAF.

Of course, NATO postings are second tour postings, but you can be posted to USAF AWACS right after 51 Sqn.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bossmanmj on October 24, 2008, 12:34:45
Judy,

Thx much, good to know.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Intelligent Design on October 26, 2008, 02:05:09
Just remember that's a posting that most AECs like the idea of. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 26, 2008, 17:30:35
What happens to those who don't meet the cut-off? Will they be re-coursed? Will this test happen before or after the OJT/DL phase? Obviously, candidates would rather know whether or not they were continuing on to CFSACO earlier rather than later.

This has also been a nagging question to which I have not found a clear answer. Since the failure rate for AECs is so high... What happens to the candidates who don't make the cut? Can they select another trade either (CO or NCM) or do they have to restart the whole application process? Are they still on the payroll while in "limbo"? Not to sound greedy here but we all have financial responsibilities.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 26, 2008, 18:46:53
If things go the way they are heading with selection testing this is how it will play out...

You enter the CFRC. You make some career choices. If any of them happen to be Air Ops (PLT, NAV, AEC) then you will be sent for selection testing. Once tested you will be apprised of the results and what they would mean for success in any of the options (even if you had originally only selected one of them). If you are below the cut-off for any of the options...well, it won't be an option for you anymore. If you are below the cut-off for all the options then you will have to select something new or look on civvy street fora career. It is not clear yet whether the "new" will be done at the selection centre or back at the CFRC Det. For new recruits this selection process would occur before you are signed up... i.e. you are not being paid.

This is a fairly simplistic model of how things are planned to play out. Most important... this is NOT how things are now. Currently each of the options has certain selection requirements unique to it. However, selection testing of any kind is now and likely will always be done before joining the CF. I am not certain how this business of ROTP candidates being funnelled into Air Ops for first year is impacting the selection testing process. I'll get an answer though.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 26, 2008, 18:54:26
Just remember that's a posting that most AECs like the idea of. ;)

About 60% of AECs have an ATC only background and few of them care about AWACS at all. Amongst the AWC folks though AWACS, and GK in particular, is the ultimate.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 26, 2008, 19:13:47
Thank you for the clarification. I'm actually in the process of joining. Any idea when they plan on implementing the new selection process? In regards to my previous post, I was thinking farther down the line once you are already in the forces (quit your civy job), have completed BMOQ but fail the actual AEC courses. I'd love to be the gung-ho type that can throw all caution to the wind but not everyone can afford to do so.  ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 27, 2008, 14:04:34
Once you are in the CF then failure of one crse will not put you back on the street. I know of a few folks that failed PLT, NAV then AEC yet still ended up being fine officers in other disciplines. What options are actually open to you if you were to fail would be dependent on previous selection testing, the assessment from the school where you failed, as well as the PSO interview you will do once back at your home unit. Recruitment priorities will also factor heavily in what options are made vailable. In recent times failed AECs typically get offered INF, ARMD or MARS although I have seen many get PAFF, HCA and INT.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 27, 2008, 17:23:40
Sorry about the colours. See attached document.

Current AEC Recruitment and Training Process

Recruitment:
•   Selection test is done at the CFRC (AEC requires overall CFAT score at or above the 60th percentile; this compares to 38th percentile for GSO/PLT)
•   Meet other criteria (medical, interview, etc) and accept offer.
Training:

Process - DEO/CEOTP/OT/CFR
1.   IAP (8 weeks)
2.   BOTP (7 weeks)
3.   SLT if English profile below CBB (up to 33 Weeks)
4.   OJE (6 week average but sometimes up to 16 Weeks):
   Requirement to take annual leave during this time
   Stream selection done
5.   Core via D/L (7 weeks)
6.   CFSACO:
   IFR – (18 weeks)
   WPNS – (13 weeks)
   VFR – (10 weeks)
7.   Qualification time highly dependent on location and final employment:
   IFR – (6-9 months)
   WPNS – all to 51 Sqn OTU (3-4 months) then to operational employment
   VFR – (4-6 months)

Process - RMC
1.   IAP done during the summer between 1st and 2nd year
2.   BOTP done during the summer between 2nd and 3rd year
3.   SLT incorporated into RMC curriculum
4.   OJE done during the summer between 3rd and 4th year:
   Requirement to take annual leave during this time
   Stream selection done
5.   Post Grad OJE including Core via D/L (10 weeks)
6.   CFSACO:
   IFR – (18 weeks)
   WPNS – (13 weeks)
   VFR – (10 weeks)
7.   Qualification time highly dependent on employment location:
   IFR – (6-9 months)
   WPNS – all to 51 Sqn OTU (3-4 months) then to operational employment
   VFR – (4-6 months)

Process – Civ University
1.   IAP done during the summer between 1st and 2nd year
2.   BOTP done during the summer between 2nd and 3rd year
3.   SLT, if required to obtain English CBB, done during the summer between 3rd and 4th year, otherwise on to OJE
4.   OJE done during the summer between 3rd and 4th year:
   Requirement to take annual leave during this time
   Stream selection done
5.   Post Grad OJE including Core via D/L (10 weeks)
6.   CFSACO:
   IFR – (18 weeks)
   WPNS – (13 weeks)
   VFR – (10 weeks)
7.   Qualification time highly dependent on employment location:
   IFR – (6-9 months)
   WPNS – all to 51 Sqn OTU (3-4 months) then to operational employment
   VFR – (4-6 months)

Yellow – St Jean, QC
Blue – normally at an operational wing
Green – Cornwall, ON

Operational Employment Options (First Tour)

1. ATC

2. WPNS  - first 51 Sqn OTU at North Bay then:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 27, 2008, 17:46:35
Terrific post, Aerospaced_out! Lots of great info there.

I had thought, however, that IAP was 9 weeks and BOTP was 6? You have them as 8 and 7, respectively.

I'm also wondering why Shearwater is "unlikely" for a first tour?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 28, 2008, 00:57:20
Me too, but I had AF AEC Tng confirm those timings specifically, as it is not my bailiwick. The differences might be in how people are accounting for wait times between crses. Either way it is 15 weeks of tng :)

Along this same line... I could have made the table much more complicated in trying to account for every little bit of wait time but thought it would just add confusion but no real clarity.

I think what I will do is edit out the posted info and allow the attached document to stand on its own. However instead of attaching it I will provide a link so that the most up to date version will be available.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 09:55:59
Me too, but I had AF AEC Tng confirm those timings specifically, as it is not my bailiwick. The differences might be in how people are accounting for wait times between crses. Either way it is 15 weeks of tng :)

Along this same line... I could have made the table much more complicated in trying to account for every little bit of wait time but thought it would just add confusion but no real clarity.

I think what I will do is edit out the posted info and allow the attached document to stand on its own. However instead of attaching it I will provide a link so that the most up to date version will be available.

On your pdf, it says IAP is 10 weeks and BOTP is 7 weeks.  ;D

In any case, going by the dates I received from the CFRC staff, BMOQ is 15 weeks in total.

You still didn't answer my Shearwater question, though. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 28, 2008, 10:33:50
My PDF? To what are you referring?

As to YAW... its a function of traffic levels. Quite frankly, Shearwater doesn't have enough traffic to challenge a new controller and this is not a good environment for developing skills and professional excellence. In the past it would not have been considered at all for this very reason. However, due to the increased production output at CFSACO it might become necessary to send an occasional grad to YAW so that they aren't being inordinately delayed in getting qualified. The decision would be taken only after consultation with the AEC CM, CFSACO and the individual under consideration.

This rationale is very similar as to why we are sending more new WPNS controllers directly to OUTCAN positions... they get more operational experience (read: live missions)at the beginning of their career.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 11:02:30
My PDF? To what are you referring?

Sorry, not PDF. The document attached to your OP.

Quote
As to YAW... its a function of traffic levels. Quite frankly, Shearwater doesn't have enough traffic to challenge a new controller and this is not a good environment for developing skills and professional excellence. In the past it would not have been considered at all for this very reason. However, due to the increased production output at CFSACO it might become necessary to send an occasional grad to YAW so that they aren't being inordinately delayed in getting qualified. The decision would be taken only after consultation with the AEC CM, CFSACO and the individual under consideration.

This rationale is very similar as to why we are sending more new WPNS controllers directly to OUTCAN positions... they get more operational experience (read: live missions)at the beginning of their career.

Seen. I am still holding out hope for either Greenwood or Shearwater for a first posting, even though the chances may be slim. That is, if I even get VFR, which is not guaranteed, either.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 28, 2008, 16:59:46
When I originally uploaded it must has used the cached first draft. I have now up-loaded the final draft. It should be showing 8 and 7 weeks as per the info in the OP. I'll check when I get home later this eve as .doc don't make it through the corporate firewall.

Good luck getting your choice of discipline. As to YAW... well our first ab initio is down there now. If it works out for him it might open the door for more. If you were new to the military I would counsel against heading to your "favorite" posting as a first tour. Usually leads to major disappointment when later in your career you can't get back "home" because you have already been there. I've seen too many people make the wrong choice on placement for their first posting. Personally I never understood the mentality of folks that join the military then turn around and fight to get a posting back to where they came from. Too each his or her own I guess...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 28, 2008, 17:12:54
We've been told no more YAW on first posting, not that I care because I'm IFR, but fyi
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 17:40:37
Personally I never understood the mentality of folks that join the military then turn around and fight to get a posting back to where they came from. Too each his or her own I guess...

I wouldn't care if it were just for myself, but my fiance and our kids (3 between us) are in the Maritimes, so that makes the difference in my case.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 28, 2008, 18:23:13
Thank you! I was worried I'd be sitting on the curb by the front gate wondering "what now?"  :crybaby: All the recruiter said when I asked was "Ah don't worry about it you'll be fine". Mind you it was 4pm on a Friday. But we're good to go! :warstory: I might be joining you in St-Jean this January Celticgirl, heck we might even be roomates.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 18:28:27
I might be joining you in St-Jean this January Celticgirl, heck we might even be roomates.  ;D


The clerk I spoke with today told me I'd be getting my own room at the Mega, LM! With a door, no less.  ;D  LOL  How far along in the process are you?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 28, 2008, 18:41:46
I have to go back to do the aircrew portion of the medical since the original trade I chose didn't require it. Everything else is complete and the interviewer gave me the green light as far as security clearance, background, references, interview and all that but reminded me there is only one position available and possibly more candidates. Does this mean I'm merit listed? I don't know. But he said I *MIGHT* be going to St-Jean this January. So exciting! I can't wait to be issued the superhero cape and secret decoder ring.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 28, 2008, 18:48:48
Great info! I was hoping to go to Greenwood as my first posting as well but I'm really interested in the air weapons side of things. Anywhere works for me as long as the fishing is good. ;) How long are AECs usually stationed?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 28, 2008, 18:52:25
Depends on a lot of factors, but typically a Lt/Capt posting is 3-5 yrs.  Greenwood isn't a good first posting, so slow, it will take your first tour to checkout.  Go somewhere busy on your first tour.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on October 28, 2008, 18:55:15
Yeah they definitly are above ground, but still somewhat dark.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 18:55:46
I don't think you can be merit listed until you complete the aircrew medical and get that all approved via the medical board. Then you have to be selected by a committee. Hopefully, you will get selected and receive an offer soon...and I will see you in St. Jean!  Are you going DEO?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 28, 2008, 19:05:30
CEOTP   
Is the merit list a type of waiting list for approved candidates? If merit listed but not selected for this position are you still in the running for future openings? Funny I can never remember the important questions when actually talking to the CFRC staff.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 19:09:27
Is the merit list a type of waiting list for approved candidates? If merit listed but not selected for this position are you still in the running for future openings?

I believe that's correct, but you should still ask your CFRC staff to be sure as I'm not a recruiter. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 28, 2008, 19:37:53
The clerk I spoke with today told me I'd be getting my own room at the Mega, LM! With a door, no less.  ;D  LOL  How far along in the process are you?

Did the clerk put that in writing?  Unless things have changed (and they may have), there is NO way a clerk would have a clue what Sector you are staying in AND that could change.  They have (or did) put IAP courses in Green Sector.  That is a fact.

I'd wait to see what Pavillion I was in before I got too excited.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on October 28, 2008, 19:44:43
Did the clerk put that in writing?  Unless things have changed (and they may have), there is NO way a clerk would have a clue what Sector you are staying in AND that could change.  They have (or did) put IAP courses in Green Sector.  That is a fact.

I'd wait to see what Pavillion I was in before I got too excited.

I'm not taking what anyone tells me as gospel at this point. I've been given a lot of conflicting information in recent months, so I'm not really "expecting" anything. Well, that's not true. I expect to have a bed to sleep in.  8)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on October 28, 2008, 19:51:16
Don't you love that, conflicting info?? 

Best prepared for the worst, if the worst happens you are prepared.  If something better than the worst happens...GRAVY!!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kincanucks on October 28, 2008, 20:11:33
Jesus wept. Perhaps it was a joke. ::)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 28, 2008, 22:01:39
I wouldn't care if it were just for myself, but my fiance and our kids (3 between us) are in the Maritimes, so that makes the difference in my case.

Aye, but what happens in 3-5 years? I always saw this scenario as a pain me now r pain me later, except the pain later gets worse when the roots you have been growing get hauled out. Something to consider... but you are not a newb and know the game.

BTW... the new .doc is the correct one now.

... and YAW is NOT off the list. As I said, case by case and if there appears to be training backlogs at other bases. Thing is, first tour postings to YAW will likely be rather short closer to 2 years vice the more typical 5 (source AEC Career Manger).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 28, 2008, 22:31:14
...but reminded me there is only one position available and possibly more candidates.

WTF is this about? One position for what and under what plan (CEOTP?)?
Celticgirl... what's this about a merit list? Is it for AECs or for a particular plan?

Let's just say I am appalled at the lack of clarity you people are facing.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LuvsMud on October 28, 2008, 22:36:08
WTF is this about? One position for what and under what plan (CEOTP?)?

PM sent.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dreamer02 on November 24, 2008, 04:55:09
what's OJE and core via D/L?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: NFLD Sapper on November 24, 2008, 11:24:59
what's OJE and core via D/L?

On the Job Employment (?)

D/L = Distance Learning

I think.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on November 24, 2008, 12:35:43
what's OJE and core via D/L?

I think OJE = On-the-job experience (not sure about the "E", though)

Core = the common phase of AEC that everyone takes before branching off into VFR, IFR, or Weapons

D/L = Distance Learning

In other words, we complete a self-study package by distance for the core phase while also working at an air base in lieu of studying full-time at CFSACO for seven months (which is how it used to be done, but is not anymore).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on November 26, 2008, 10:54:15
Celticgirl is correct... E is for experience. There is a slight distinction being made between OJE and OJT these days where OJE is less formal and generally not performance checked. So sitting in a Tower Cab watching and learning how controllers work would be categorised as OJE but doing an AEC D/L package would be considered OJT.

Apologies for all the acronyms. The document was not originally generated for an external audience.

BTW... attached is the most recent CFSACO Master Schedule (zipped excel spreadsheet). It details the course start and end dates for all AEC and AC Op courses for 2009. It is a living document and as such is subject to change...so don't use it to make commitments! The latest full version is always available on the DIN at this link: http://northbay.mil.ca/22wing/CFSACO/Main/Files/29%20Oct%2008.xls

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on November 29, 2008, 17:44:42
This is what the hold-up is for me - the 'pre-security screening'. I have passed the CFAT, interview, and medical but because I lived and worked in Taiwan from 1998-1999, I have to await this clearance. My file manager said it can take up to 18 months and it's already coming up on two. I am trying to be patient, but I'm pretty certain I won't be waiting a year and a half. I'm no spring chicken, after all. ;)

What I am wondering now is with regards to trades and this security screening - if I were to go with a different trade and/or apply to the reserves, would I still need to await the clearance?

My Pre-Sec took at least 2 years to go through, I had almost completely given up on it.  Then the next hold up for me was my eyes, of course I had to receive a V4 rating..., notice I said had, now I am waiting for my 3 months after laser eye surgery!  Nothin is stoppin me from AEC, more specifically Air Weapons.  So I am hoping to make it in for the April /09 BMOQ. 
As for my marks in school...lol...umm not soo good, but according to my recruiting officer I scored very highly on my CFAT, so I had nothing to worry about ;)
Anyone heard about courses for 2009?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on November 29, 2008, 18:31:41
Celticgirl is correct... E is for experience. There is a slight distinction being made between OJE and OJT these days where OJE is less formal and generally not performance checked. So sitting in a Tower Cab watching and learning how controllers work would be categorised as OJE but doing an AEC D/L package would be considered OJT.

Ooh, I love being right. ;)

OK, I have another question for you, pain in the keister that I am.  ;D  Do we complete the D/L package on our own time for those six weeks? That is to say, do we do our OJE/OJT during the day and then work on our D/L courses in the evenings and on weekends, or would we be given time during the 'work day' to do that?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on November 29, 2008, 18:33:30
My Pre-Sec took at least 2 years to go through, I had almost completely given up on it.  Then the next hold up for me was my eyes, of course I had to receive a V4 rating..., notice I said had, now I am waiting for my 3 months after laser eye surgery!  Nothin is stoppin me from AEC, more specifically Air Weapons.  So I am hoping to make it in for the April /09 BMOQ. 
As for my marks in school...lol...umm not soo good, but according to my recruiting officer I scored very highly on my CFAT, so I had nothing to worry about ;)
Anyone heard about courses for 2009?

Good luck with your application, Nick! I received my offer in September and will be on the Jan. 5th BMOQ. Perhaps we will get a chance to work together someday. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on November 29, 2008, 22:05:30
No, if fact your supervisor and CO have to essentially sign a contract saying they will afford you the time to complete D/L while on duty. During that time you are pretty much off limits for "extra" taskings. However, if you are a quick study, and as a consequence have spare time during duty hours, I would suggest you use it wisely by engaging in as much OJE as possible.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on November 29, 2008, 22:12:26
Thanks for the info and advice. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on November 29, 2008, 22:59:02
Its not all that intensive, so if you don't have extra time for extra OJE, there's something wrong.  Yeah like its been said, but when you're doing your D/L, that's your "job."
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 01, 2008, 11:52:49
Its not all that intensive...

No, it isn't that intensive; nevertheless, the school has had people fail exams and Progress Review Boards have considered cease training from AEC for repeat failures.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 02, 2008, 09:10:26
No, it isn't that intensive; nevertheless, the school has had people fail exams and Progress Review Boards have considered cease training from AEC for repeat failures.

All right, don't freak me out. I haven't even done basic training yet.  :P  :blotto:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on December 02, 2008, 20:21:51
Thanks for all the information - I was wondering if you could give some insight into the general promotion periods for AECs?  As in around what times in your career you should expect to be promoted to Lt./Capt./etc.  Thanks for any help!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on December 03, 2008, 21:21:22
Aerospaced is right with his comment, I can see people failing... multiple times.  Its like everything else, just put in your time and you'll be fine.  What I meant is that its not rocket science, but if you're not willing to work hard, you will find a way to fail.  Just study and you'll be fine.

Grando, as its been mentioned many times, eligibility for Lt. is 1 yr after your commission date and Captain is 3 yrs after commission date.  You will get your Lt. after you check out , so if that's more than 1 yr after your commissioning date (as it likely will be), then you will be back paid to your eligibility date.   Pretty sure this is standard across the board for all occupations.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Staloney on December 04, 2008, 03:47:37
Hello everyone, this is my first post.  I cant believe how much info there is on these threads.  My apt. test scores were just a bit shy of AEC.  I have my rewrite scheduled for 2 weeks yesterday morning.  I have been preparing like crazy.  I do believe that one can prepare or 'study' for an apt. test.  I have gotten my hands on a passbook for the General Aptitude Test (Battery) and this thing is my new bible.  I got it at the Brantford library.  I phoned my recruiter a few weeks ago and spoke to him about rewritting and he dropped hints like "you're close...you're close" and "okay, so, brush up on your math and we'll see you".  Ive gone back to grade 1 math to prepare.  I want this job soooooooo bad.  being on these boards make me want it even more. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 04, 2008, 09:54:45
Here is a cold hard fact about AEC academics... no one has successfully qualified as an AEC who hasn't first achieved an overall academic average at the school of at least 89%. In fact only two people have ever even graduated CFSACO with an academic average of less than 89... they both failed qualification. There is a couple of theories as to why this is the case with the most prevalent being that if you are not prepared academically for the simulations it makes them harder. At a certain threshold (apparently 89%) the lack of knowledge causes a cascade effect that snowballs people into eventual failure.

Now you know why the CFAT threshold for AEC sits at the 60th percentile while for all other officer classifications it is 38. Smart people tend to do better academically. However that isn't the whole story... is it ever? Motivation also seems to be a key factor. I say this because as Mountie points out... it ain't rocket science. The academics in the D/L and even at CFSACO are arguably at the same level as grade 11 or 12. The material does come at you fairly quickly but it isn't onerous. Suffice to say it is all quite "doable" so long as you actually do it and give it your best. So staying motivated may be just as important as being smart.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 04, 2008, 10:12:06
That's all very interesting, not to mention slightly intimidating. Motivation isn't a problem for me. When I want something, I give it 100% and then some. The smart part, however...well.... :P  LOL  Hopefully, it will all work out for me and for other AECs-to-be here. I'll be sure to give my absolute best effort with both the D/L and courses at CFSACO.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 04, 2008, 13:45:36
Ahhh... you've been trapped! As an AEC you came through the CFAT filter. Now, CFAT is not the best predictor of AEC success but it does tell us quite a bit about your cognitive ability. At the 60th percentile you are smart so you have no excuse not to do well academically.  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 04, 2008, 13:53:26
No excuse...yes, that is one of my mantras these days. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on December 04, 2008, 16:48:35
Thanks for the information - I've been quite aware of the main posts on AEC in here, and wasn't aware of the Capt. promotion period.  I appreciate it though!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 06, 2008, 14:33:43
Thanks for the information - I've been quite aware of the main posts on AEC in here, and wasn't aware of the Capt. promotion period.  I appreciate it though!

Nice to see you posting, Grando! Where are you in the process now...OJE?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 10, 2008, 23:46:15
What determines the length of OJE anyway?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 10, 2008, 23:52:43
What determines the length of OJE anyway?

I would say the course dates for CFSACO probably determine that. We will likely be on OJE roughly April - August just from looking at the '09 course schedule, Kyle. That is my guess, anyway. We'll know soon enough!

How did the M&G go today, by the way? :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 10, 2008, 23:59:15
Really good! Although i was the only AEC surrounded by a bunch of arties, lol. It was a good time though. I ended up giving Alex a ride home - so we had a great chat about expectations andwhat not.

You ready?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 00:06:04
Really good! Although i was the only AEC surrounded by a bunch of arties, lol. It was a good time though. I ended up giving Alex a ride home - so we had a great chat about expectations andwhat not.

I'd have loved to have been there to increase the AEC number. lol We sure do have a lot of Artillery guys on our course! ;) I'm not nearly as adventurous as Jeff and Matt, though! The next M&G will be at the Mega!

Quote
You ready?

As ready as I'm gonna be! Just 3 and a half weeks left!  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 00:10:28
Jeff said there were two other AEC's at the ceremony today with him - but didn't come for the m & G. one set for jan 5, and one for jan 18(?).

Hard to believe so little time - tomorrows my last day at work - then 3 wks with the fam - ignoring the "separation anxiety" elephant in the room.

how do they determine where our oje will take place? i'd rather be closer to home then say - comox - but the sched i got from you, i think, says we take our yearly leave at the same time ..... i know i know - getting ahead of myself.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 00:22:09
Jeff said there were two other AEC's at the ceremony today with him - but didn't come for the m & G. one set for jan 5, and one for jan 18(?).

Hard to believe so little time - tomorrows my last day at work - then 3 wks with the fam - ignoring the "separation anxiety" elephant in the room.

how do they determine where our oje will take place? i'd rather be closer to home then say - comox - but the sched i got from you, i think, says we take our yearly leave at the same time ..... i know i know - getting ahead of myself.

Not long ago, I was talking via PM with an AEC who was doing his OJE at the time. He told me that the AEC Career Manager is really good at keeping AECs close to their families for OJE. Thus, I am hoping for one of the air bases in NS, preferably Shearwater. I also saw that info re: taking annual leave during OJE (which came from Aerospaced_Out, I believe). It would be nice to have a little time with family (in my case, my daughter) immediately after BMOQ, but we'll see if that is possible or not. One step at a time, eh. ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 00:26:22
I feel a bit like split personality - one side wants to jump in and get going, the other is aching to ease into the initial "aloneness" - but im just glad to be finally underway - i know you had to wait a long time too - just means it will be all the more worth it.

Apparently Dustin and I are the "big guys" as Jeff said today. I think it was a compliment .....lol
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 00:28:18
Good luck, Staloney - making the effort and preparing is 90 % of the battle. Just don't burn yourself out, lol!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 10:52:01
I feel a bit like split personality - one side wants to jump in and get going, the other is aching to ease into the initial "aloneness" - but im just glad to be finally underway - i know you had to wait a long time too - just means it will be all the more worth it.

I think we'll be so busy, there won't be much time to feel homesick. Also, we're going to be bonding with our platoon members and doing stuff with them all day every day...that has to help assuage any loneliness, at least for the first while.

Quote
Apparently Dustin and I are the "big guys" as Jeff said today. I think it was a compliment .....lol

LOL...He's probably afraid he might have to carry one of you after the ruck march. Him not being such a "big guy" and all. ;) {Does he lurk in the AF section? lol}
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on December 11, 2008, 11:08:48
I think we'll be so busy, there won't be much time to feel homesick.

CG, you would be amazed at the people who break down mentaly after only a few days, some even the first night. It always catches me by surprise when i see people balling their eyes out on the phone about how much they miss home and stuff and they have only been there for a few hours.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 11:18:21
CG, you would be amazed at the people who break down mentaly after only a few days, some even the first night. It always catches me by surprise when i see people balling their eyes out on the phone about how much they miss home and stuff and they have only been there for a few hours.

That doesn't surprise me one bit, CA. Some people don't spend much time away from their families and I'm sure it's a shock to the system in the beginning, especially when you have small children. I'm fortunate in a way because my daughter spends time with her dad (my ex) and I am used to being away from her for up to 3 weeks at a time. Ergo, I already know she can deal with the distance just fine and so can I. It will just be for a longer period than usual. I miss my daughter when we're apart, but it is no longer an aching feeling like it was when I first started having to 'share' her. ;) The upside is that people who are going through this separation anxiety can come and talk to me when they are having a hard time because I can relate. (Hear that, Kyle? :)) We can help each other work through the tough times.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 12:27:09
Received and understood. I think for me it will just be weird not having a little person (or persons, depending on the night) stumble bleary eyed into my bed because they had a bad dream.  I'm ok with being away, i was on my own for a lot of years. If once in a while you'd be so kind as to throw things around, jump of the couch, sing ABC's at the top of your lungs off key, and pretend to be either a) spiderman b) dora, or a combination of the two, then i'll feel right at home. :)

We can bring a blanky, right?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 12:39:14
We can bring a blanky, right?

Just don't walk around with it like Linus.  :P
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jeffb on December 11, 2008, 12:42:22
I think we'll be so busy, there won't be much time to feel homesick. Also, we're going to be bonding with our platoon members and doing stuff with them all day every day...that has to help assuage any loneliness, at least for the first while.

LOL...He's probably afraid he might have to carry one of you after the ruck march. Him not being such a "big guy" and all. ;) {Does he lurk in the AF section? lol}

Do I ever!  :) You're not that big yourself Heather.  ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 12:43:39
Needing a blanky doesn't come off as weak, does it?  

I should probably work on that then. So much for my Greatest American Hero bed sheets.

Aw c'mon Jeff, i promise to REALLY breathe out and stuff. ......
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 12:45:16
Do I ever!  :) You're not that big yourself Heather.  ;)

Does that mean you think you could carry me 100 m? lol ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jeffb on December 11, 2008, 12:46:56
Does that mean you think you could carry me 100 m? lol ;)

Absolutely.  :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 11, 2008, 12:48:12
Absolutely.  :salute:

I still have a few weeks of Sara Connor training yet, you know. We'll see... ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 11, 2008, 12:53:50
I'm curious though, are we graded on technical skill, or artisitc merit - because i can do a killer rendition of that move from Dirty Dancing - so long as someone can hold me up long enough. ^-^
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 13, 2008, 23:22:55
Quote
AEC Career Manager is really good at keeping AECs close to their families for OJE.

Actually, it is AF AEC Tng who is good at getting OJE/Ts to where they want to be even if that means being close to home. The CM does not deal with ab initios (new folks) until they graduate from CFSACO. Careful what you wish for though, as you might just get it. Hard facts show those that go to operational bases for OJE/T do better at CFSACO.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 13, 2008, 23:44:53
Actually, it is AF AEC Tng who is good at getting OJE/Ts to where they want to be even if that means being close to home. The CM does not deal with ab initios (new folks) until they graduate from CFSACO.

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote
Careful what you wish for though, as you might just get it. Hard facts show those that go to operational bases for OJE/T do better at CFSACO.

Which bases are considered 'operational'?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ironman on December 14, 2008, 01:21:18
Hi there!  Pretty new here, but I just wanted CelticGirl to know that I'll be on QMOB January 5th in St-Jean too!

Let's hope we'll be in the Blue Area...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 08:49:33
I would guess places like North Bay, Trenton, Cold Lake, Comox - all the bases listed in the AEC interactive map. (from the Forces recruiting site)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 14, 2008, 09:43:39
Hi there!  Pretty new here, but I just wanted CelticGirl to know that I'll be on QMOB January 5th in St-Jean too!

Let's hope we'll be in the Blue Area...

Great stuff, Ironman! You are welcome to join our Facebook group if you are so inclined: BMOQ Jan. 5th Facebook Group (http://www.facebook.com/wall.php?id=670975173&banter_id=564621200#/group.php?gid=47930697160) Just send a request to join, and I'll add you! :)

Are you an AEC as well?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 14, 2008, 09:50:30
I would guess places like North Bay, Trenton, Cold Lake, Comox - all the bases listed in the AEC interactive map. (from the Forces recruiting site)

I've been thinking a lot about what Aerospaced_Out said in his/her last post and re-considering things a bit. I only have one shot at this and want to give myself every opportunity to do well at CFSACO. If I can get a little time to come to Cape Breton to be with my daughter after BMOQ and possibly again before going to Cornwall, I could see myself doing OJE in a place like Trenton to get the 'operational' experience. (There's always Victoria Day weekend and Canada Day weekend and I could potentially fly home to see her at those times.) This is something I will discuss with the AF AEC Tng person when I get the opportunity. It's something to take under consideration, for sure.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 10:15:45
To be sure - i don't necessarily face the geographic separation challenges you do - but my concerns are the same. I want to kick the crap out of this thing. I already "see" myself doing this trade. Having the added benefit of current AEC's experience thru OJE would be awesome, but also not at the expense of mine or my family's disconnection.

DO we know when we will meet with the AF AEC Tng?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 10:20:41
Another One-Fiver. Welcome, Ironman.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 14, 2008, 10:26:50
Are you an AEC as well?

Aha, you are. I just lurked in your posting history. ;) I see you are francophone as well. Your English is quite a bit better than my French.  8)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on December 14, 2008, 10:29:35
Quote from: sinistersuperspy link=topic=80860.msg788879#msg788879 date=1229264145
DO we know when we will meet with the AF AEC Tng?
[/quote

After your basic. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 10:30:35
Thx Mountie!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 10:36:43
Seems like our numbers are rising CG!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 14, 2008, 10:37:50
Seems like our numbers are rising CG!

We may outnumber those Artillery guys yet!  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on December 14, 2008, 10:43:32
Or at least distract them with the machine that goes BING!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ironman on December 14, 2008, 13:28:52
Yeah AEC of course!  ;D

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 15, 2008, 10:42:25
Quote
Which bases are considered 'operational'?

Places where AECs are actualy controlling... thus all the air bases and North Bay. In Celtic's case this could include Greenwood or Shearwater if proximity to Cape Breton is a plus.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 15, 2008, 10:44:22
In Celtic's case this could include Greenwood or Shearwater if proximity to Cape Breton is a plus.

Music to my ears!  :D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 15, 2008, 19:21:38
I am curious about career progression after that rank of Capt as an AEC.  Is this a trade where you are likely to be a career Capt?  Is there reasonable opportunity to make it to major or beyond in this trade?  How would the career progression/advancement compare to something like Int Officer for example?  Would age be a factor, ie starting at 32? 

Im a MARS Officer (not yet trained) but recent research indicates that starting out in my 30s isnt the best idea for this trade.  I am shopping around I guess. 

Any specific insight would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 16, 2008, 10:20:32
Would age be a factor, ie starting at 32?

There are 8 AEC Col, 31 LCol and 127 Maj out of a total PML of 518. At 32 you have a fair chance at getting Maj or even LCol if you are coming over with the right credentials... OPME, Degree, Strong Second Language Profile, etc. These won't be enough but when the cream rises due to outstanding performance/potential then it those that have these things in hand that make the next leap. Its a mistake that many make to think it is the OPME (The ticks in the box as it were) that gets you promoted. Far from it... its the performance matched with potential. The OPME and all those other ticks in the boxes are just prerequisites. I suspect you already know that but thought it worth stating for anyone else reading this that doesn't have your background.

Expect two posting (about 6-8 years) for Capt to Maj (likely one ops and one staff). Again expect two postings and 6-8 years to LCol (ops, staff or command if you are "lucky"). Nothing is in stone... some do it faster and some have gone 20 years before their next promotion. None of it is a gimme either... you will have to work for it and timing plays a bit of a role too.  The current age demographics virtually guarantee good turn over at the Maj and LCol rank. I don't think this is much different than any other officer occupation. So really you might be shopping but I think you are shopping in a store full of apples.

Promotion to Col is a whole other kettle of fish... we can chat again when you are a LCol :)

edit... I missed the "not trained" bit. Not much of what I wrote likely applies to your case then. However, the fact that AEC is promoting at a reasonable rate is still relevant.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on December 17, 2008, 11:53:38
Are there any AEC's posted to Petawawa with the 427 SOA Squadron ? And if so, is it IFR, VFR, WC, or all three?
Or are they posted through SCOR?  (edited)

cheers!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on December 18, 2008, 09:09:20
Are there any AEC's posted to Petawawa with the 427 SOA Squadron ? And if so, is it IFR, VFR, WC, or all three?
Or are they posted through SCOR?  (edited)
cheers!
Yes, there are two positions there.  427 SOAS SATCO, and CSOR JTAC Instructor.  The first is a VFR position, the second is a JTF deployable position(currently filled by an ANAV).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 18, 2008, 14:44:40
Well I just finished up my business for the CT ect...

I am told I will be offered AEC and Int Officer, now I just need to decide which one to go with.  Deciding between two good choices is never easy..
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on December 18, 2008, 23:16:52
*cough*AEC*cough*
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 19, 2008, 00:53:28
I need more then that!!

So far I am sitting on the fence on this one.  I think I have changed my mind once every few minutes for the past few days.  I need to get alot more AEC information.  I know the Int branch as well as anyone can so thats not an issue.  Any additional information that can be provided would be very helpful.

Specifically, life after the certification period.  Say from Capt onwards.  Has anyone been on any operational deployments?  What did that look like?

What about leadership?  For example, in the army a junior officer would be a platoon commander to start off.  Do AEC's perform an equivalent role in addition to controlling?  What is the organizational relationship between the AEC, the NCOs and NCMs?

It seems based on what I have heard that AEC is similar to MARS in many respects.  What is the mental math like if any?  Do AEC's like to eat their own the same way MARS officers do?

Also note, I do not know what any of the AEC type acronyms mean!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Gazoo on December 19, 2008, 11:24:13
So far I am sitting on the fence on this one.  I think I have changed my mind once every few minutes for the past few days.  I need to get alot more AEC information.  I know the Int branch as well as anyone can so thats not an issue.  Any additional information that can be provided would be very helpful.
Depending on how much info you need, you could find most answers by searching here.

Quote
Specifically, life after the certification period.  Say from Capt onwards.  Has anyone been on any operational deployments?  What did that look like?
Yes, we deploy but I am not sure I understand what you mean by 'what did that look like'

Quote
It seems based on what I have heard that AEC is similar to MARS in many respects.  What is the mental math like if any?  Do AEC's like to eat their own the same way MARS officers do?
I have been an AEC for over 28 years, and spent 3 years in recruiting and don't see similarity between us and MARS.  As far as math, it is very important to be able to make it through training.  NO.

Quote
Also note, I do not know what any of the AEC type acronyms mean!
Not enough time or space to explain them all.

The biggest question you have to answer is what do you want.  You said you know everything you need about INT, does it sound like something you would like to do?  If not keep looking at other options.
There are many AEC threads talking about the different streams(Weapons, IFR, VFR), the posting options, deployment examples, career progression...  If after searching on this site, you don't find the answers maybe post a few questions based on some research you have done.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 19, 2008, 11:55:58
The only thing I dont like about Int Officer is the prospect of being a career Capt.  Otherwise it is a solid job in my opinion.  I know some may argue that my priorities may be a bit skewed, but that is something that is important to me. 

With regards to Aerospace, I have been in the midst of looking through all those threads and the search functions ect..  I still have a few more to look through..  but to answer your question about my question on operational deployments:

Keep in mind that I have 14 years army NCM experience and 1 year in the Navy, my understanding and knowledge of Air Force lifestyle and culture is limited at best.  I have a few months (March) before I have to have made a decisions so im trying to bridge that gap between now and then..

At any rate, I beleive ive seen postings about AEC's serving in Afghanistan for example.  What exactly would they do there?  The abbreviations didnt mean anything to me so what I found was of limited value.  Do AEC's sit in a tower at KAF and control air traffic only?  What do the weapons guys do?  Do they patrol with the infantry and ground units to provide some measure of control on the spot?  I know there was some talk about that here, but I could not figure out what alot of it meant because of the accronyms.

Deployment frequency?  Deployment tempo for Int Officers would be extremely high, is that the same for AEC's?

Ill toss some more questions up here after I have gone through more of the threads.

Thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 19, 2008, 12:12:50
I would also recommend you go through the AEC Recruitment DVD if you haven't already. If your recruiting center doesn't have one, PM an address and I will have one sent to you.

As to Afghanistan... AECs are in there as airspace managers coordinating close air support (CAS) as well as providing personnel within Tactical Air Control Parties (TACP). We have been controllers in Kabul Tower but not at the moment. I am pretty sure as an army dude you can find more info on CAS and TACP.

The tactical deployment tempo for AECs is not high. If you go more than once in any given posting that would be unusual. Remember though that a sizeable number of AEC postings (particulaly Weapons) are outside Canada in the first place.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 19, 2008, 14:46:27
Is that the same video that they have on the recruiting website?  Ive seen that one, I just got off the phone with the CFRC where I live and they said they did not have anything different.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Greymatters on December 20, 2008, 00:45:08
The only thing I dont like about Int Officer is the prospect of being a career Capt. 

If you knew the Int Branch 'as well as anyone', you wouldnt have said that.  The phrase 'working rank' for officers is Captain, but what it means is that your promotion to Captain is pretty much a gurantee after a suitable period of time, or a shorter period of time if you do exceptional work or are in the right place at the right time.  There are numerous positions at the Major and Colonel level, but you're going to have to prove yourself better than others to get them faster than others, not just gaff around and get it handed to you on a silver platter.  There are exceptions, as some jumped the line by being very good at their work, or being in the right place at the right time.  Others got their promotions to Major by waiting around long enough until the review boards couldnt ignore their seniority anymore. 

To define it more clearly, 99% of the ones who stay as a 'career Captain' are:
a) in a reserve unit where the higher positions are occupied and unlikely to be vacated until that person dies or turns 55;
b) they retraded or commissioned from the ranks at a late age, and with a limited time in until retirement arent able to stay in the trade long enough to get a rank of Major;
c) are injured and unable to be promoted;
d) or, they suck at their jobs and the only way they will get promoted is by seniority.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 20, 2008, 02:16:54


To define it more clearly, 99% of the ones who stay as a 'career Captain' are:
a) in a reserve unit where the higher positions are occupied and unlikely to be vacated until that person dies or turns 55;
b) they retraded or commissioned from the ranks at a late age, and with a limited time in until retirement arent able to stay in the trade long enough to get a rank of Major;
c) are injured and unable to be promoted;
d) or, they suck at their jobs and the only way they will get promoted is by seniority.



Are you talking about the Int Branch with A through D or the CF as a whole?

The Int Officers that I know, and have worked with in the past, some regular force, some reserve all told me the same thing about leveling off at Captain.  What they told me was that there just were not that many positions available above that rank.

I have no interest in having something handed to me on a silver platter, where is the challenge or fairness in that?  I also dont relish the idea of waiting for someone to die or retire before being able to progress.  I will of course be looking into both sides of the coin further before making a final decision, but for the purposes here, I would really like to get more info on AEC.  If you have further insight into Int please send me a PM, im happy to receive as much information as I can.

Thanks

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Greymatters on December 20, 2008, 12:36:40
The Int Branch is a small trade so it might appear to some, or they may describe it as, that there are 'only a few openings'.  However, there are proportionately just as many higher positions as any other trade.  In my own opinion I think there are proportionately more higher rank positions than in most other trades, considering the ratio at most units of men to officers is often 3:1 or even 2:1. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 21, 2008, 17:47:40
Is that the same video that they have on the recruiting website?  Ive seen that one, I just got off the phone with the CFRC where I live and they said they did not have anything different.

The AEC DVD is an interactive media product. The videos on the recruiting site are just one small aspect of that DVD. A comparative analogy would be the difference between a game trailer and the actual video game.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Stirling Dyer on December 21, 2008, 18:36:43
The AEC DVD is an interactive media product. The videos on the recruiting site are just one small aspect of that DVD. A comparative analogy would be the difference between a game trailer and the actual video game.

Is the DVD you're talking about the one that contains an offline version of the CF Aerospace Control World website seen here: http://www.forces.ca/v3/media/modules/controller/splash.html ?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 26, 2008, 19:31:49
Yes, that does appear to be an online version of the DVD... at least what I saw through this dang dial-up connection.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Celticgirl on December 26, 2008, 19:57:23
WTF is this about? One position for what and under what plan (CEOTP?)?
Celticgirl... what's this about a merit list? Is it for AECs or for a particular plan?

Let's just say I am appalled at the lack of clarity you people are facing.

Oops, I just noticed this post now. I was never told I was merit-listed, in my case. The Capt. who was working on my file simply told me that my pre-security clearance came through and that the selection board was meeting later that week. On the day the board met, he called to tell me that I'd been selected for AEC. However, others on this site have said that one must be merit-listed in order to be selected. I think it is the same for everyone, regardless of plan, element, or NCM/Officer. What happens after merit-listing varies, obviously. The whole 'merit list' concept is a bit of a mystery to applicants as we are often not told much (or anything, as in my case) about it.  :P

LuvsMud, I hope you have received some good news since your last post on this thread. I was told that there were no more AEC positions for my area right before the selection board was to meet, and that they were going to try to get one from another area. I didn't even realize they could do that, but clearly it's possible so perhaps they can do the same in your case. Give us an update on your application status when you can. Hopefully, I'll see you at the Mega in January! :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: CFR FCS on December 26, 2008, 21:47:49
Merit listing for AEC requires that the Air Crew medical or Air Factor be completed prior to selection. However the Air Factor Medical does not mean a trip to Toronto like Pilots have to do. You needed extra tests done (blood work and eye exams for sure, maybe more) and those results are sent to AUMB in Toronto who assigns an Air factor.

AEC is Open Selection List (OSL) so once you are merit listed the CFRC selection  / production officer selects you and assigns you a position in the occupation and a BMOQ course serial. There is no board just one person running merit lists and assigning applicants to vacancies.  If the CFRC does not have any vacancy for you then they can ask for one to be transferred from another CFRC, so if one is available you will get an offer. 

There are more DEO positions than CEOTP so that might be the problem finding a vacancy.   
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 27, 2008, 03:04:28
There are more DEO positions than CEOTP so that might be the problem finding a vacancy.   

Seeing as only about 50 of the 86 positions required to meet current fiscal year intake requirements have been achieved there should be no problems with anyone getting an offer for AEC so long as all other requirement for entry into the occupation were met. There are valid reasons why recruitment is biased to certain entry plans but having the people is more important than those factors.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: koopa on December 27, 2008, 06:02:47
Edited: Nevermind. found answer
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on December 27, 2008, 12:36:20
Yes, that does appear to be an online version of the DVD... at least what I saw through this dang dial-up connection.

What I saw on the website is identical to the one the recruiting website has except there are two listed on the site above.  One is a generic air force video which is not on the recruiting site, the other that is aerospace specific is the exact same one.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on February 24, 2009, 17:19:20
Has the Aircrew factor changed for AEC?
I have passed all my medical testing (blood, urine, ECG), and had laser eye surgery done (as I have V4), and had my optometrist sign off on my vision (i now have 20/20).  I submitted the document into my CFRC, and was then told a month or so later (3 months after my operation) that I had to wait an additional 3 months, as I have to go for further testing for Aircrew selection.

Now this is completely different from everything I have read and been told previously.  Can anyone confirm this?   Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 24, 2009, 17:58:43
Has the Aircrew factor changed for AEC?


No. Its is still A4.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 24, 2009, 17:59:33
I know that your eyes cannot be cleared until 90 days after the date of surgery, my friend is going through that right now.  There is no requirement to wait another 3 months unless they think its just going to take that long to get the rest of your admin done.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 24, 2009, 18:00:39
What exactly does A4 mean anyway?  I used to have a link describing the medcats but that never covered the air factor.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 24, 2009, 18:02:13
What exactly does A4 mean anyway?

Safety of the aircraft not affected if member were to become incapacitated.

Quote
A4 - assigned to all aircrew who are medically fit for unrestricted airborne duty but whose duties do not entail actual operation of the aircraft to which they are assigned. If such individuals were to become incapacitated they would not create a hazard to aircraft operation nor impede the safe return of the aircraft to the ground. An A4 classification may be annotated "While So Employed" (WSE) when it is assigned to members of MOCs which are not normally associated with flying. Air Traffic Control and Air Weapons Control personnel must also maintain an A4 category for unrestricted employment;


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 24, 2009, 18:05:43
Is that another way of saying you occupy a position on the aircraft that does not involve flying or something to that effect?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 24, 2009, 18:06:47
Is that another way of saying you occupy a position on the aircraft that does not involve flying or something to that effect?

Yes...read my edit above.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 24, 2009, 18:08:42
Before anyone asks.....

Quote
Air Factors
A1 - assigned to pilots who are medically fit for unrestricted duty in all CF aircraft;

A2 - assigned to navigators, flight engineers, observers and helicopter reconnaissance observers who are medically fit for unrestricted duty in all CF aircraft where such positions are required;

A3 - assigned to those aircrew members for whom a medical restriction has been identified. An A3 classification will always clearly stipulate the specific limitations to be imposed;

A4 - assigned to all aircrew who are medically fit for unrestricted airborne duty but whose duties do not entail actual operation of the aircraft to which they are assigned. If such individuals were to become incapacitated they would not create a hazard to aircraft operation nor impede the safe return of the aircraft to the ground. An A4 classification may be annotated "While So Employed" (WSE) when it is assigned to members of MOCs which are not normally associated with flying. Air Traffic Control and Air Weapons Control personnel must also maintain an A4 category for unrestricted employment;

A5 - assigned to all non-aircrew members of the CF who are medically fit to fly as passengers in CF aircraft;

A6 - this grade is assigned to all CF members who are considered medically unfit to fly in any capacity; and

A7 - this grade is assigned to all aircrew personnel who are medically unfit for any flight duty in CF aircraft but who may still fly as passengers.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on February 25, 2009, 00:36:16
Before anyone asks.....

CDN Aviator, thank you!!  I am contacting my CFRC in the morning to inquire into this.
Cheers!!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on February 25, 2009, 09:21:08
I'll be interested in the response you get from them.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on February 25, 2009, 15:02:24
I'll be interested in the response you get from them.

I confirmed the aircrew factor for AEC is A4.

However, when I contacted my CFRC this morning, and inquired into the aircrew factor.  Basically I was told what I had already knew, in concerns to the medical testing for aircrew status (blood, urine, ecg, vision test), which I have already done in July 2008.   Due to the vision testing, I was rated V4, thus I have gone through successful laser eye surgery, and now have 20/20 vision, 4+ months after surgery. 

During this whole process I have been in touch with Medical staff out of CFRC Hamilton, in which I was informed I needed to wait for 90 days after surgery to have my eyes re-evaluated, if my optometrist signed off on them, in which he did.  Now I am being told that I need to wait 6 months and then go for further testing.  This part I am finding confusing as what further testing do I need to go through?  This question my application manager could not answer, however I am now going to challenge the decision behind me having to wait an additional 3 months, when my optometrist has cleared my vision.

Thus I am contacting a MWO, I beleive he is a PA, at my CFRC to fight this, on Monday.  Does anyone know anything further on this, or experiences with this?  I know this isn't really the correct thread for this but it is a bit of a mixed question.

What an ordeal, but I feel like the wheels are moving, so atleast it is a step in the right direction :), and I so want AEC over LOG! 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 25, 2009, 16:42:30
You should fight this one hard.  As I mentioned my friend is going through the exact same thing.  He was V5 so he had to go get his eyes zapped by the surgeon.  My unit is going to swear him in on May 12th which is exactly 90 days after his surgery.  Based on this case, there should be absolutely no need for you to wait an additional 3 months, unless for some reason, your situation is unique from his. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on February 25, 2009, 16:44:23
As far as I know this is the exisiting policy:

Quote
Aircrew applicants who have had refractive surgery must meet the following requirements:
a. a minimum period of six months must have elapsed following refractive surgery.
b. they must have had at least two refractions performed post-surgery by an ophthalmologist/optometrist, at least 14 days apart, with less than 0.5 Diopters of refractive difference between the two measurements in the same eye;
c. have no history or evidence of unwanted symptoms or post-operative effects including but not confined to: decrease in best corrected visual acuity; raised
NOT CONTROLLED WHEN PRINTED
6/18
intra-ocular pressure; corneal haze; reduced contrast sensitivity; corneal ulcers; pain; blurred vision; glare or flare; halos around lights or objects; degraded night vision; and other visual aberrations.
d. have discontinued the use of all topical eye drops including steroids or anti-inflammatory agents but artificial tears may be used as needed;
e. meet all vision standards for the relevant military occupation; and
f. be free of any ocular pathology.

Reference: http://winnipeg.mil.ca/1CdnAirDivSurg/FltSurg/vision/CF%20RS%20Policy/CF%20RS%20Policy%20-%20Final.pdf (see attached for an e-copy)

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LogONick on February 25, 2009, 16:59:34
Excellent, thank you for the information!  At least now I understand the reasoning behind the answers I have been given.

I have been expecting to wait now until August BMOQ anyway, so no big loss.  Though, I am still going to contact the PA on Monday and discuss this further. 
Hmmm...I wonder if I could OT into AEC from LOG after BMOQ... but this is a question for a different thread! ;)
Cheers!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 25, 2009, 17:25:03
Dont go that route, its way too much of a pain and you could be waiting years in a trade you dont want to be.  Just follow the process for AEC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on February 25, 2009, 17:28:12
As far as I know this is the exisiting policy:

Reference: http://winnipeg.mil.ca/1CdnAirDivSurg/FltSurg/vision/CF%20RS%20Policy/CF%20RS%20Policy%20-%20Final.pdf (see attached for an e-copy)

The difference in this case must be the air crew status.  My friend is going INT O so its A5 for him.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 16, 2009, 12:02:48
Reviving an old topic here, any idea what are the perspectives to work as a Maritime Fighter Controller onboard any vessel? As a former sailor I wouldn't mind some seatime if I were to go AEC. Is that an option reserved only to Weapons, or IFR, or what?

Currently, what are in fact the opportunities to go Weapons? Someone mentionned last year that things looked pretty good for weapons right not, is it still the case?

Cheers!
 :st.patty: (Couldn't resist using it...)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on March 16, 2009, 23:38:03
Most candidates are getting their choice of streams.
MFCs are all Wpns backgrounded. It is not a first tour posting.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Buddha66 on March 18, 2009, 02:40:36
TimBit:  MFC requires a weapons background and is at a minimum a second tour gig.  As an MFC, you are not only a controller on the boat but the Fleet Commander's senior advisor on all things air other than Sea Kings. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Chet on March 21, 2009, 21:31:34
Great Post.

I've got a quick question, what kind of work does an AEC do for this? I'm assuming WPNS = Weapons.


Quote
2. WPNS  - first 51 Sqn OTU at North Bay then:

    * North Bay with 21 Sqn
      42 Rdr Cold Lake
      12 er Bagotville
      AWACS Tinker OK
      Air Defence Sectors in McCord, WA or Rome, NY

Thank you

Edit: Been reading some more: So the weapons controllers work on AWACS?

Edit2: found it :) http://www.forces.ca/interactive/controller/splash.html
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bigg_H on April 14, 2009, 16:20:31
Hey, I have a question: what is the job transferability of AEC Weapons to the civilian world? For eg, IFR and VFR seem pretty straight forward. I am just curious as I think I would like weapons as it is something different. Would I need to retrain if I eventually wanted IFR or VFR either as a civilian or AEC?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 15, 2009, 14:20:25
Hey, I have a question: what is the job transferability of AEC Weapons to the civilian world? For eg, IFR and VFR seem pretty straight forward. I am just curious as I think I would like weapons as it is something different. Would I need to retrain if I eventually wanted IFR or VFR either as a civilian or AEC?

Thanks!

There is no civialian equivalent to Air Weapons Control. So, yes you would need to retrain. Mind you many ATC personnel that leave for NAVCAN find they require additional training as well. There is just enough difference between military ATC and Civil ATC that some additional training or extensive OJT will be required. Given this I'd recommend picking the discipline that suits your sensibilities more than what job you might want to do later on in your life.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: N_Dussault on April 15, 2009, 16:37:50
Hey, I have a question: what is the job transferability of AEC Weapons to the civilian world? For eg, IFR and VFR seem pretty straight forward. I am just curious as I think I would like weapons as it is something different. Would I need to retrain if I eventually wanted IFR or VFR either as a civilian or AEC?

Thanks!

Hey Bigg_H,

I work at Nav Canada - Moncton Center.  Today I had a chance to speak with a former military controller who transferred over to civilian ATC about 10 years ago.  When he transferred, there was no requirement for additional training, except for mandatory regional training (local airspace and procedures, equipment, etc.).  However, now Nav Canada does require additional training. 

The training has been restructured since I started.  When I went through Basic IFR in Cornwall, we used fictitious airspace and concentrated on the basics (obviously).  Then upon being posted at a unit, we would do the regional training and learn some finer aspects and local procedures.  There is no longer a need to train in Cornwall at the Nav Canada Training Institute (NCTI) for the Basic IFR portion, so you would do your basic in the regional center that you have requested. 

I'm not certain if you know about the Nav Canada IFR centers, but there are seven across the country:  Gander, Moncton, Montreal (Bilingual Req), Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Vancouver.  Technically, NAVCAN can place you anywhere that their operational requirements warrant once you are qualified, but I haven't seen them do this since I've been there (circa 2003).  The trainees come out of the course, go on the floor for OJT, qualify - then if they want to go to another unit, they can apply for positions via seniority bids.  Of course, then you will do regional training at your new unit all over again.  Since every center has it's own complexities, you will definitely be subject to some training.

As far as VFR goes, I'm really not certain.  To be honest, I'm not even sure if the VFR course is still done in Cornwall or if it has become a regional course as well.

If you'd like some more information, you can PM me with an email addy and I can get somebody in our training department to contact you.  Even if you're not interested in Moncton center per se, they'll be able to answer most of your questions better than I can.

ND
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 16, 2009, 09:55:29
Quote
To be honest, I'm not even sure if the VFR course is still done in Cornwall or if it has become a regional course as well.

NAVCAN is still conducting VFR training at NCTI; however, this is too is being regionalised once they have finalised the aquisition of new simulators. The operational training staff (GTs) have already received their "lay-off" notices. The military still conducts all its VFR and IFR training at NCTI. While CFSACO, no longer has any support links with NAVCAN, the facility still makes for a rather fine place to conduct training.

BTW... say hi to Kevin Vaughn ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: N_Dussault on April 16, 2009, 10:03:55
BTW... say hi to Kevin Vaughn ;)

Will do.  Work with him all the time.  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bigg_H on April 16, 2009, 13:19:13
How much retraining? Obviously not from scratch? Would you happen to have a 'guess'timate? I would assume that a CF IFR would not needs as much retraining as a CF Wpns.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: N_Dussault on April 16, 2009, 13:37:55
Hey Bigg_H,

I can't recall offhand how much retraining there is, but I'll be back into work tomorrow and I'll check for you.  Off the top of my head, it might be 14 months classroom/simulator then OJT for 6-12 months.  If I'm not mistaken the OJT pay is around $33k/year, while classroom/simulator training is unpaid and requires a tuition of around $3500 (I think, it was free when I went through  ;D).

Some decent info on the Nav Canada site as well: http://takecharge.navcanada.ca/index.php (http://takecharge.navcanada.ca/index.php)

Let me find more info for you tomorrow and I'll send you an email.

ND
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Bigg_H on April 16, 2009, 19:32:44
Thanks Dussault. I called Nav Canada and asked them. Pretty much starting from scratch. I would have an advantage over another applicant without the CF training. I am actually heavily reconsidering going the CF route now... When I spoke to a recruiter I was told the training was the same, and so I assumed (key phrase being "I assumed") that going from one to another would be easy... I am glad I found this info before I signed...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 20, 2009, 13:19:28
You were told by a recruiter that the training for civil and military ATC was the same? Obviously a  statement borne of ignorance given the simple reality that the only thing the same is the the MANOPS we uses as a common bible. Saying the training is the same is like saying Judaism and Christianity are the same because they both have a foundation in the Old Testament.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: N_Dussault on April 20, 2009, 13:27:38
Bigg_H means the training is the same in respect to a new hire off the street and a new hire with military ATC experience.  Both new hires receive the same training from Nav Canada.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 20, 2009, 17:00:18
Both new hires receive the same training from Nav Canada.

Well, if you are declaring that to be the case, then likely you are also misinformed. Typically NAVCAN trainees off the street, at least within Montreal FIR, must take both Basic and Generic training. On the other hand most experienced military ATC just challenge the Generic exam (includes two simulations). Military pers that pass, as most do, bypass all this training and go straight to a regional qualification, thus saving months.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on April 21, 2009, 16:56:48
Hi,
I have question  about SLT (FRENCH), i remember somebody saying its not required. Is it true, what if you are interested in learning french after BOTP is it possible and how to enroll, thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on April 21, 2009, 21:58:29
Hi,
I have question  about SLT (FRENCH), i remember somebody saying its not required. Is it true, what if you are interested in learning french after BOTP is it possible and how to enroll, thanks

You will just have to see what the military wants you to do first. If the CF has other plans for you ( like your trade courses) then it wont matter how interested you are.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on April 22, 2009, 04:35:50
Just curious if anyone knows if there is a training delay between basic and all the things you need before trades training.  Is there a backlog of people waiting for trades training in the hopper like there is for Int, or are they being loaded as they become ready after BOMQ and whatever else they may need.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 22, 2009, 13:58:52
There is no backlog. From the time you leave BMOQ until you qualify as a liscenced controller you will almost alwatys be actively enaged in formal training. See the first post in this thread or review this attachment.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=80860.0;attach=24913

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on April 24, 2009, 18:00:11
I wouldn't consider OJT as being "actively engaged in formal training"...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 24, 2009, 18:58:54
I wouldn't consider OJT as being "actively engaged in formal training"...

Well, while on OJT you have to complete a formal OJT package and you have to complete the distance learning portion of the AEC Basic Course. I could go on, but I will conceed that in some instance there is more informal training than formal particularly if the OJT period is at all delayed from the norm.

If indeed you are on OJT, and feel less than engaged, feel free to PM your particulars and I can help you get engaged.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on April 29, 2009, 21:35:15
Hi,

Could somebody clarify if AEC is 24/7 job or 9-5 weekday job, what kind of shifts one gets and for how long e.g if i am on night shift (if there is one) then for how many weeks. Another question, between IFR and VFR which stream is best if one wants to join NAVCANADA later on.
thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 30, 2009, 09:50:01
Hi,

Could somebody clarify if AEC is 24/7 job or 9-5 weekday job, what kind of shifts one gets and for how long e.g if i am on night shift (if there is one) then for how many weeks. Another question, between IFR and VFR which stream is best if one wants to join NAVCANADA later on.
thanks


Being in the military is a 24/7 job, but I get that's not exactly what you are asking.
AEC encompasses so many different "jobs" that it would be wrong to characterise it as either shiftwork or daywork. Even within one unit you could find some AECs working shifts of varying lengths 365 days a year and others that are essentially 8-4//Mon-Fri types.
Those that work shift have their time on duty regulated. In general the more activity there is during any given period the less time will be spent on any one shift. Given this, day shifts tend to be shorter (from 6 to 8 hrs) due to the higher levels of activity. Those on night shift may be on duty for up to 16 hrs (usually 12 or less), but within that time half of it will be spent sleeping (sort of like at a firehall).

As to prospects for migrating to NAVCAN... frankly, if that is your focus I would wish for you to go give them a try first. I see NAVCAN as a job while AEC is a way of life. This aside, any military ATC training will be looked upon favourably by NAVCAN just as any NAVCAN training would be looked favourably upon seeking employment as an AEC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on April 30, 2009, 14:15:08
Thank you very much Aerospaced-out. I guess some member of forces do transition to civi life at some point in their career and there is nothing wrong with that. I am proud to soon be a member of the Canadian Forces and optimistic that i stay in forces until my retirement. Everybody out here is supportive and great to talk to. cheers.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on June 12, 2009, 14:04:00
I want to be AEC and currently waiting to start August BMOQ, i have few questions regarding AEC training (OJT, DL and Cornwall), Any guidance will be appreciated because i really want to successfully complete the tough AEC courses. I would like to be in VFR component of AEC, 2nd choice would be IFR.

1. Would studying ATC-MANOPS and Transport Canada's Aeronautical Manual (TP14371E) hard a good idea. Also where can i get course material at this point to have a peek (at least on line) or can somebody offer me via email.
2. Should i buy some ATC simulator software and get good at traffic separation etc
3. I am from Winnipeg, after BMOQ should i ask for Winnipeg posting for OJT or is it better to pick some other base which may offer more hand on training and eventually help me in my cornwall training( keeping in mind i want to select VFR)
4. Any tip for successful AEC training
5. Finally once i am checked out, can i ask for Winnipeg posting(being hometown, would that be negative factor for 1st posting)
 thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 12, 2009, 15:38:06
1. MANOPS never hurts as it is the bible for ATCers. You will use it extensively on course. With that said remember the training is set up for people with no background in aviation or ATC.
2. If you enjoy playing sims games then feel free. It can't hurt but there are no studies that show it does.
3. The general concensus is that OJT at an operational base (ie an airport) is better than not having that exposure. However, it really is dependent on the individual and their capability.
4. Be prepared to stay focused on your training. Showing up with personal issues of any kind is not a recipe for sucess.
5. You will be expected to work at the place you qualify for at least a few years. You cannot qualify ATC in Winnipeg.

Rhetorical question of the day... why do people join the military only to turn around and request to be posted back to where they just came from?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 12, 2009, 18:15:28
you should have plenty of time to look over manops while on OJT - between that, sim work, section and wing orders and overall observation there`s a lot to do (you just have to take it on yourself - something I didn`t realize before aerospaced smartened me up earlier in this thread)

you could memorize manops 511.1 though ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on June 12, 2009, 23:48:03
thanks Aerospace and Grando.
1.if one selects IFR, does it mean restricting to Montreal or Edmonton. And your job is always underground.
2. Is it true courses for VFR are lot tougher than IFR and so is checking out as VFR
3.How is moosejaw for checkout (VFR and IFR)?

Grando my MANOPS version shows on 511.1 "DF ASSISTANCE" is that what you are referring or i bet something else.

Rhetorical question of the day... why do people join the military only to turn around and request to be posted back to where they just came from?
because they are new and just joined or joining (and not used to the system or yet conditioned) or some are mature with family and want to take some time for this new transition(that's me).  :nod:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 17, 2009, 14:00:53
1. The MAATS project died quite some time ago. ATC IFR services are not being transferred to super centres in YUL and YED.
2. No.
3. YMJ is a challenge (IFR and VFR) because of the complexity and density of traffic. It is after all one of the busiest airports in Canada. The school will not recommend to the career manger that a graduate be sent to YMJ as a first posting if it is deemed this places the student at risk for failure.
4. 511.1 is Radar Ident. Get the latest MANOPs: http://winnipeg.mil.ca/a3ar/Pubs/Publications_e.htm Moreover DF has never been in Chapter 5 so I am not sure what it is you are looking at.
5. Rhetorical: A rhetorical question is a statement given in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to consider the real answer. You missed the point on both accounts. Experience shows that the longer you wait to transplant a tree the harder it becomes due to the length of the roots. Enjoy your reprieve but you can expect the pain to be worse in a few years.

thanks Aerospace and Grando.
1.if one selects IFR, does it mean restricting to Montreal or Edmonton. And your job is always underground.
2. Is it true courses for VFR are lot tougher than IFR and so is checking out as VFR
3.How is moosejaw for checkout (VFR and IFR)?

Grando my MANOPS version shows on 511.1 "DF ASSISTANCE" is that what you are referring or i bet something else.
because they are new and just joined or joining (and not used to the system or yet conditioned) or some are mature with family and want to take some time for this new transition(that's me).  :nod:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on June 17, 2009, 23:48:37
Thanks aerospace for detailed reply. I am thankful first to God and then to Canada for giving me opportunity to serve this great country, Canada is my home now( i have lived here for almost 10years and still learning and don't mind it).
I found RADAR IDENT in MANOPS at 511.1 thankyou again.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 18, 2009, 13:33:07
No worries. Good luck and by the way... no AEC facility, neither Weapons nor ATC, is underground.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on June 18, 2009, 15:51:07
I wouldn't call Moose Jaw complex.  There are two types of aircraft.  No civilians, no overflights.  The least complex of all wings actually.  Its the density of trafffic which makes it hard.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 19, 2009, 15:01:11
I wouldn't call Moose Jaw complex.  There are two types of aircraft.  No civilians, no overflights.  The least complex of all wings actually.  Its the density of trafffic which makes it hard.

Mountie, I just checked your posting history. In most instances where you offered an opinion or information about AEC you have been wrong, just as you are here. That you think you can offer meaningful insight into traffic levels as an untrained AEC is truly puzzling. I get that you are trying to be helpful but you really need to offer input only if you are sure it is the right information and hopefuly information based on experience.

In fact there are three airframe types in Moose Jaw (Tutor, Harvard and Hawk) and they all operate with quite different performance characteristics. Throw in that it is a training environment and the myriad of approaches that must be practiced, Moose Jaw is indeed very complex.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: 05Mountie on June 19, 2009, 15:16:07
I may be wrong, but unfortunately it wasn't based on experience, it was based on what our instructors told us on course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 19, 2009, 16:35:25
I may be wrong, but unfortunately it wasn't based on experience, it was based on what our instructors told us on course.

Like you I doubt they controlled there. Although if memory serves you are about to change that.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on June 20, 2009, 14:29:08
Mountie, I just checked your posting history. In most instances where you offered an opinion or information about AEC you have been wrong, just as you are here. That you think you can offer meaningful insight into traffic levels as an untrained AEC is truly puzzling. I get that you are trying to be helpful but you really need to offer input only if you are sure it is the right information and hopefuly information based on experience.

In fact there are three airframe types in Moose Jaw (Tutor, Harvard and Hawk) and they all operate with quite different performance characteristics. Throw in that it is a training environment and the myriad of approaches that must be practiced, Moose Jaw is indeed very complex.

Aerospaced_out,

And what vast ATC experience do you have that qualifies you to be such an expert on what constitutes complex traffic.  Moose Jaw is NOT "indeed very complex".  Yes it is extremely busy and therefore very challenging, but the three aircraft types you mention all have very similar performance characteristics.  Try controlling at a Wing that has jets, multi-engine, helicopters, light civies, gliders and SAR Techs, then you can talk about what complexity is.  In case you are wondering, I have controlled at Moose Jaw, Goose Bay, Greenwood, Comox and three exercises, MARCOT, NATOAir Meet and Maple Guardian.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: johnnyhangover on June 20, 2009, 21:05:48
you don't make friends easily, do you?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: johnnyhangover on June 20, 2009, 22:07:36
Hi all,

I am married with a kid and I am graduating from university next april after which I will be starting on AEC training.  From what I gather from the very helpful info that has been posted, I can expect to spend next summer at a wing, then 10-18 weeks in cornhole, er, cornwall; followed by 4-6 months at a wing for ojt.

my question(s) is this:

1.  did i get the above info right?

2.  Will my family be allowed to move with me for those 4-6 months of ojt, or do they have to wait until I get posted after that period?

thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PMedMoe on June 20, 2009, 22:29:36
1.  did i get the above info right?

2.  Will my family be allowed to move with me for those 4-6 months of ojt, or do they have to wait until I get posted after that period?

thanks in advance!

1.  Not sure.

2.  If it's a posting, your family can go.  If not, they can go but you will pay for it yourself.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 22, 2009, 13:08:22
Aerospaced_out,

And what vast ATC experience do you have that qualifies you to be such an expert on what constitutes complex traffic.  Moose Jaw is NOT "indeed very complex".  Yes it is extremely busy and therefore very challenging, but the three aircraft types you mention all have very similar performance characteristics.  Try controlling at a Wing that has jets, multi-engine, helicopters, light civies, gliders and SAR Techs, then you can talk about what complexity is.  In case you are wondering, I have controlled at Moose Jaw, Goose Bay, Greenwood, Comox and three exercises, MARCOT, NATOAir Meet and Maple Guardian.

I have controlled at Goose Bay and Cold Lake, as well as a few other places, all of them as both a Tower and IFR controller. I have been the WOpsO/WATCO in Moose Jaw. Currently I am the Cmdt of CFSACO. That meet your standards?

Moose Jaw is more complex that YAW, YBG, YZX, YTR and for most of the year more complex than YOD and on many a day at least as complex at YQQ. Moreover, if the Harvard and Hawk have such similar performance characteristics why are the seperated onto the Inner and Outer runway? Throw in the Snowbirds and you have a recipe for complex ops on a daily basis both IFR and VFR. It's not the same as the Tutor days, whch given your response is likely the last time you controlled there.


@ johnnyhangover : Once you leave university you are normally prohibited posted to a wing for OJT while you wait your course. If the wait is to be too long they will actually give you a full posting. Mind you the turnover rate has been short enough so far that we aren't seeing candidates get full postings. Once you graduate you will be sent to a unit to qualify. This is usually accompanied by a full posting where you family can move at the Crown's expense. Efforts are made by Air Force Training to keep families together or nearby while in the training system but you might have to spend some time away during this training phase of your career.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on June 22, 2009, 16:25:27
I have controlled at Goose Bay and Cold Lake, as well as a few other places, all of them as both a Tower and IFR controller. I have been the WOpsO/WATCO in Moose Jaw. Currently I am the Cmdt of CFSACO. That meet your standards?

Well hello neighbour (Goose Bay).  Sorry about the tree.  Now you should know who I am as well.

Ya, now that I know who you are I would say you've met my standards.  And here I thought you were just another AEC wannabe picking on another equally inexperienced wannabe.  I guess this shows you how decieving the internet can be.  I still don't agree with your assessment of Moose Jaw's traffic, but I'm sure we can discuss this in person the next time our paths cross.  Hopefully in a mess somewhere and not in your office.

Rob
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 23, 2009, 12:29:14
I knew who you were before I posted the reply... only one wanker I know that did YMJ, YYR and AETE. Moreover, only someone controlling in YQQ would think Moose Jaw is not complex :P
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: johnnyhangover on June 24, 2009, 09:15:25
1.  Not sure.

2.  If it's a posting, your family can go.  If not, they can go but you will pay for it yourself.

wow.  what useful information.  you really shed light on it for me. ::)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PMedMoe on June 24, 2009, 09:38:03
wow.  what useful information.  you really shed light on it for me. ::)

Don't like the answer?  Don't read it.  There are others here that are more detailed.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: George Wallace on June 24, 2009, 10:05:06
wow.  what useful information.  you really shed light on it for me. ::)

At the same time, you are shedding some light on who you are, to us. 

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PMedMoe on June 24, 2009, 10:15:01
At the same time, you are shedding some light on who you are, to us.

The user name did it for me.  Appears it was a "drive by" posting:

Quote
Last Active: Today at 08:15:25
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: johnnyhangover on June 24, 2009, 15:13:07
Don't like the answer?  Don't read it.  There are others here that are more detailed.

how silly.

how am i to determine my affinity for your answer if i don't read it?

i guess i was hoping for a response from aerospaced_out, as he/she seems to only post when actually having something to say.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: George Wallace on June 24, 2009, 15:27:17
 ::)

how silly.

how am i to determine my affinity for your answer if i don't read it?

i guess i was hoping for a response from Aerospaced_out, as he/she seems to only post when actually having something to say.

Like I said......You are showing us who you are.  Apparently you don't pay any attention to what you post:


1.  Not sure.

2.  If it's a posting, your family can go.  If not, they can go but you will pay for it yourself.


wow.  what useful information.  you really shed light on it for me. ::)



So get over yourself, and pay attention to the information people are kind enough to give you.  You don't need special treatment, do you?  Do you really need Aerospaced_out to answer your question? 

As for having something to say; please practice what you preach.

Thanks for coming out.



Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 26, 2009, 02:18:27
To touch on a topic mentioned earlier in this thread - is VFR still open to newbies as a first course?  I'm not interested at all, but there've been back and forths about whether it was officially closed to new ATCs.

Similarly, is the January IFR course full yet?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 26, 2009, 10:29:14
To touch on a topic mentioned earlier in this thread - is VFR still open to newbies as a first course?  I'm not interested at all, but there've been back and forths about whether it was officially closed to new ATCs.

Similarly, is the January IFR course full yet?

VFR is open to newbies (aka... ab initio). In fact most VFR students are ab initio just as it is with the other two streams.
Jan 2010 IFR is full at this time but if augmentation is found to replace an instructor proceeding on maternity leave then three more slots will open up. I won't predict the likelihood of that happening given this will be during OP PODIUM (olympics).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on July 15, 2009, 12:18:58
Thank you for the information sir.  It's very much appreciated.  I do have one last query about the Jan 2010 VFR course - and whether there are spots remaining.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on July 15, 2009, 22:09:46
Aerospaced_out could you please provide us with master training schedule for 2010 for AEC in zip/excel file.  thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on July 17, 2009, 00:12:25
There is an earlier version in this thread as an attachment. While it is for 2009 the template will be the same for 2010. Dates will only change by a few days. If you have access to the DIN the latest is on the CFSACO website. Otherwise you will have to wait til I get back from leave.

cheers...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Zahoor on July 17, 2009, 00:41:55
Cool, i have the 2009 file, happy holidays :nod:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on July 23, 2009, 09:28:30
Attached is the latest CFSACO Master Schedule (dated 16 JUl 2009).
Schedules are living documents and not written in stone.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ExSigOp on July 29, 2009, 10:58:01
I’m approaching my University grad (Dec 09), and am a UTPNCM AEC.  I'm done IAP/BOTP, but didn't do SLT.  I suspect I will start AEC training in Jan 10.

I’m torn between VFR and Weapons. 

My questions are:

Is it possible for service couples to get OUTCAN postings together.  My wife is a RMS clerk and currently a Private just off her QL3. 

I ack its better to go to an operational base, but, can OJE/OJT/D/L be completed from Ottawa (finishing a year of IR in Dec in Ottawa, would prefer to not start another in Jan)? 

Is Trenton a realistic first posting for VFR?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on July 29, 2009, 12:13:10
Yes, it is possible for service couples with different backgrounds to get OUTCAN postings together. It's not easy, but it is doable and it has been done before.
Yes, OJE/OJT/D/L can be completed from Ottawa. The caveat being you'd likely get some direct exposure with TD to an airbase and North Bay if time permits. Adz AF Tng of your wishes when contacted, which given your grad date should be soon.
Yes, Trenton is a realistic first posting for VFR.

BTW, what did you mean when you said you'll likely start AEC tng in Jan? PM me your name and I can provide some detail perhaps.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: raekwon on August 05, 2009, 13:52:57
ExSigOP:  is that you, gunn-daddy? 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: raekwon on August 05, 2009, 13:59:21
Question:  what are the shifts like for aec?  i've heard things like, 4 days on 4 days off, 12 hr. shifts, etc.

could someone give me an idea of how the work day/week is organized?

thanks.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on August 06, 2009, 10:27:39
AECs cover off IFR, VFR, NORAD and AWACS not to mention mobile and tactical radar units. Asking what the typical shift is like really doesn't respect that reality. The real answer is that it depends... on what job, Wing, time of day or even year you are talking about.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: raekwon on August 08, 2009, 15:13:51
huh, i didn't realize there would be that much variation.  if i wanted to get an idea given a specific wing, is there a way i could find out?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on August 10, 2009, 01:02:26
AEC is rather diverse. As to specific wings, I imagine you could call the unit directly. They'd likely ask who you are and why you want to know. Shift workers are rather sensitive about their shifts because no one cares when they work 7 and 1 but the minute their shift is 3 and 4 everyone is interested.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ExSigOp on August 10, 2009, 08:43:33
Yeah P.  Its me!  I e-mailed Aerospaced_out and he was extremely helpful.  You might want to make sure the ULO has your proper grad date.  They still had 2011 for me even though it changed twice...  I think yours changed too?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: milnews.ca on September 10, 2009, 10:08:25
....according to MERX (http://www.merx.com/English/Supplier_Menu.Asp?WCE=Show&TAB=1&PORTAL=MERX&State=7&id=182082&FED_ONLY=0&hcode=9RTDNyBAzTWobLa%2fqfzepg%3d%3d) (emphasis mine):
Quote
The proposed contract is from 1 November 2009 to 31 March 2011; with Canada retaining two irrevocable options to extend the contract for an additional two (2) consecutive twelve (12) month periods ending 31 March 2013.

Estimated Cost of the Proposed Contract

The estimated value of the contract, including the option periods is $9,700,000.00.
(Including GST). Canada retains the right to negotiate with suppliers on any procurement.
Reference Number     182082
Solicitation Number    DND-09/NAVCAN1
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on September 28, 2009, 00:17:44
Hello Army.ca Forum Members:
1st time posting on here, but have been reading the boards for some time.
I am very close to submitting an application to the CF.  I am 30, and would like to do something meaningful with my life.  I am in the GTA and I wear glasses (nothing too strong).

I have a degree (arts), and am exploring all occupations (Officer and NCM).
With my arts degree, and with the current state of hiring, and certain trades closed to new applicants, there really aren't that many officer trades available for me, or ones that I"d be eligible for with my degree.

I've always been interested in aviation and flying and have also worked in aviation.  Since Pilot is closed, I was looking at was Aerospace Controller & Aerospace Control Operator (oddly both "in demand" occupations). I know the difference between Officer vs. NCM, but after looking at the descriptions for these 2 jobs, I still am unclear how the 2 differ??  Can someone with knowledge pls enlighten me?  I am seriously considering the Air Force, and would appreciate your feedback (and tips/advice, etc).

Thank you!

ps: Through searching around the forums, it was mentioned somewhere that Aerospace Controllers and Aerospace Control Operators required very high CFAT
scores.  Can someone pls confirm.  Thank you....
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on September 28, 2009, 02:24:33
I'll confirm that AEC (and maybe AC OP) requires very high CFAT scores.

Might I recommend going over this link:

http://www.forces.ca/interactive/controller/splash.html

It should cover what you need to know about AEC/AC OP differences.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on September 28, 2009, 14:54:01
Hi AEC Kapp:
Thank you for the info.  That’s a great link.  Can’t believe I didn’t come across it before somehow.

Thank you again.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on October 15, 2009, 05:28:34
Hello!
Another question(s) for you fine Aerospace Control people (Officers and NCM's),

1) How much of a Math and/or Physics guru do you need to be in order to do Aerospace Officer or AC Op work?? Math is not my forte.  I can learn it and do it with practice, but I"m not one of those people where it comes "naturally" to them.  I can learn the stuff but I'm worried about all these "mental calculations" that are required for several CF trades (from what I hear).  I am one of those people that needs to use a pen and paper.  I know...pretty sad.   :crybaby:  Would appreciate any advice/tips/viewpoints into this pretty esoteric trade that has caught my interest.  Curious to hear from what you guys and gals have to say. 

2) How do you find all the indoor work in a window-less environment?
Not too many jobs I can think of where that is the case.

3) Also wondering why is Aerospace control an "in demand" trade according to the CF website?  Do you have a lot of people retiring or close to retirement?  Funny how some trades are "in demand", while others are closed (i.e. Infantry, Pilot, etc).

Thanks in advance!!!  :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: take2 on October 15, 2009, 10:52:47
3) Also wondering why is Aerospace control an "in demand" trade according to the CF website?  Do you have a lot of people retiring or close to retirement?  Funny how some trades are "in demand", while others are closed (i.e. Infantry, Pilot, etc).

Did you see the AEC Numbers thread?  I would guess that the numbers haven't changed much since that count was done.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kratz on October 15, 2009, 11:28:12
Quote from: srhodes
3) Also wondering why is Aerospace control an "in demand" trade according to the CF website?  Do you have a lot of people retiring or close to retirement?  Funny how some trades are "in demand", while others are closed (i.e. Infantry, Pilot, etc).

As an employer, the CF projects their need for additional personnel. Yes, more pers are releasing and  retiring. Some trades have been underborne for a number of years and are seriously short. If you read the related threads (ie: Infantry, Pilot, ect) you will note the trades that are closed are due to the CF having already recruited enough pers for those trades for this fiscal year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on October 15, 2009, 16:03:17
HI Take2,
That thread was from 2008.  Since we are almost at 2010, and that with the military things can change overnight, I thought the numbers might be updated/changed.

HI Kratz,
True. As a large organization the CF must do human resources projections, etc.  But some things just don’t make sense to me.  For example, the recruiter I spoke to very recently (the other day) told me that the CF hasn’t hired DEO pilots in 2 years and they don’t expect to hire DEO pilots for another 2 years.  I don’t know, that seemed kinda ridiculous to me.  4 years and not 1 DEO pilot spot available!! I could have sworn that a few years ago I saw on CBC that there was a military pilot shortage and they (the CF) had ads out and everything.  I just don’t understand how it switches from feast to serious famine in a relatively short time frame??   ???  Also, I was shocked to hear that Infantry was closed.  That was one trade (i.e. the backbone of any army) that I never imagined would stop accepting applications!!

Any info on my other questions would be much appreciated!! ;)

Thanks…..
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: kratz on October 15, 2009, 16:22:48
Keep in mind, the CF has also invested time and training into pers who remuster into trades (ie: pilot). I know one navigator who has been accepted into pilot and must wait 18months for his first pilot course. Until then, he is in a holding pattern, no chance for promotion, no career progression ect...due to his remuster being held at the stage it is at. Using that example, it is not a suprise, some attractive trades such as pilot are so harder to enter via the DEO route.

As hard as CFRG and career managers work to meet the needs of the CF, that feast and famine impression is part and parcel of the CF IMO. The CF is a voluntary military service, so when a publicly known conflict is ongoing for 8+years (Afghanistan) there will be an overwhelming number of people looking to enter combat trades like infantry. The CF training system can only train so many people in one year. Once that number is reach, we have to say no more. Heck, even the Navy is saying no more to Boatswain for the rest of this FY.


Read the Infantry closed, Combat Engineer closed, Boatswain closed threads and many of the comments I have echoed are made there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on October 15, 2009, 17:34:20
Hi Kratz,
Good point.
Wow!  He/she must wait 18 months just for the course! Incredible.

I found your comments “The CF is a voluntary military service, so when a publicly known conflict is ongoing for 8+years (Afghanistan) there will be an overwhelming number of people looking to enter combat trades like infantry” to be quite interesting.

I would have thought that it works (as a voluntary military service)  the other way around.  When the public sees soldiers coming back deceased, hurt, wounded (physically and psychologically)  that LESS people would be applying for direct combat trades (especially given the fact that the pay is nothing to write home about either). 

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: xbowhntr on November 23, 2009, 17:25:25
Just to update the current OJE timeline, I am currently on OJE and just received my course date and I will have been on OJE for 43 weeks before my course starts. That is not including my DL. Bit of a backlog I guess.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on November 23, 2009, 18:12:38
As with xbow, I've been on OJE since May. Report for IFR course Jan 14.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PapaJohn on November 26, 2009, 20:31:02
I will be attending the Jan. 2010 BMOQ, and am entering under the CEOTP for AEC. I just have a couple of questions regarding the training process. I know that some of these have been covered in  the threads on here, but if I am repeating something its because I'm wondering if its still current.

1. Are poeple(for the most part) still getting their choice of streams?

2. Is there a minimum number of personnel required to run a course at CFSACO?

3. If I live in North Bay, and want to go WPNS, will I definitely do my OJE in YYB?

4. What are the possibilities of an OUTCAN posting for a first tour?

5. Is your "tour" a specified length of time?

6. Is the D/L package you complete during OJE specific to your stream, or is it material common to all three disciplines?

7. If you were going WPNS, upon completion of your initial course at CFSACO, would you now where you will be posted after training at 51 Squadron?

8. Is SLT mandatory for english speaking AECs

Any info would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: xbowhntr on December 05, 2009, 23:48:26
The following answers should be fairly accurate:

It depends on the stream you want. Weapons isn't currently loading courses because the trade is full. This isn't to say they don’t start loading courses soon. My guess would be mid fall.
There is a minimum number however there doesn't seem to be a shortage of personnel waiting for a course.
There is no guarantee. You can ask for it, and have a good chance of getting it but it isn't a for sure.
Very good chance if that is what you want
Yes, not sure of what it is. I imagine they vary.
It is common to the three streams.
Not sure
No

Any other questions, ask away. Im not an expert by any means but may be able to find out answers.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Frax on December 06, 2009, 02:15:42
Thank you very much, xbowhntr. Your answers are very appreciated.
And thanks for asking, PapaJohn  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on December 08, 2009, 11:37:32
There's a weapons course going in January, and another one in April...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on December 17, 2009, 16:51:05
1. Are poeple(for the most part) still getting their choice of streams? (YES)

2. Is there a minimum number of personnel required to run a course at CFSACO? (YES, but they are well staffed)

3. If I live in North Bay, and want to go WPNS, will I definitely do my OJE in YYB? (Yes, unless you don't want to)

4. What are the possibilities of an OUTCAN posting for a first tour? (ATC = 0, AWC = 30+%)

5. Is your "tour" a specified length of time? (Out of country tours are 3 and sometimes 4 year fixed)

6. Is the D/L package you complete during OJE specific to your stream, or is it material common to all three disciplines? (Most is common elements but efforts are ongoing to provide stream specific near the end)

7. If you were going WPNS, upon completion of your initial course at CFSACO, would you now where you will be posted after training at 51 Squadron? (No, but the school does make recommendations for suitability for out of country)

8. Is SLT mandatory for english speaking AECs (NO, anglos don't get it)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PapaJohn on December 18, 2009, 13:50:49
Thanks for all the responses... much appreciated. I'm glad to hear that WPNS is still an option. My former employer was a Ret. Major(AEC) who was the CO of 51 SQN, so I've gotten a lot of information about the profession. As far as "checking out " goes, on the WPNS side of things, does that happen after completion the course with 51 SQN, or during your first tour?

TIA

John
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on January 14, 2010, 12:51:29
51 Sqn is an Operational Training Unit. Operational being the key word... they make you operational. As such once you get through them (and almost 100% do) you are technically qualified and a fully fledged AEC. You will be on shift...but still lots to learn.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ltmaverick25 on January 31, 2010, 06:28:33
AEC is rather diverse. As to specific wings, I imagine you could call the unit directly. They'd likely ask who you are and why you want to know. Shift workers are rather sensitive about their shifts because no one cares when they work 7 and 1 but the minute their shift is 3 and 4 everyone is interested.

Is it possible to obtain some examples over a diverse spectrum.  Ie, what are the shifts like at 51 Sqn, NORAD, Comox ect...

I realize you may not have all that information at your fingertips, but any amplification would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: high_octane on January 31, 2010, 08:51:02
51 Sqn works days (they are a training sqn) unless maybe the only missions available are at night

NORAD is more than 1 sqn and has the same diversity of shifts as the trade... 21 Sqn does 4 days - 3 eves - 4 off - 3 days - 4 eves - 3 off... Some people from the evening crew cover the mids.  It's not much different than any other organization that works 24/7.  You either do 8 hrs with standard days off/12 hrs with more days off, or you work more if manning gets tight

I'm at a deployable radar sqn and we work when required just like any operational unit.  Some times the entire unit works days or nights.  Sometimes we split into 2 overlapping shifts to cover a longer period.  Sometimes we spread out to cover 24/7.

There are endless situations.  I'm currently doing 12 hrs night shifts 4 on 2 off.  ATC units all have their own situation as well but their's may not change as often as ours other than their manning
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Old Guy on February 25, 2010, 00:35:57
I've been a semi-regular at Army.ca for some years but I've never visited this particular part of the site.

My interest was sparked because I was an air traffic controller in the US Army from 1965-68 and an FAA enroute controller (Denver ARTCC) from 1969 until that fateful August, 1981.

Aviation has been a lifelong interest and ATC was once my life, so I try to keep up with the field.  In reading through this thread I noticed that Canadian Forces controllers seem to be officers, or at least a good many are.  That has not been the case in US Forces, except possibly in certain types of airborne command and control operations.  Given what I glean from the this thread and the career tracks, I see why the CF is set up that way.  At least I think I do.  Probably I'm missing some important bits. 

Anyway, I went to the CF main site and read the job descriptions for the two main positions: Officer and Operator.  Looks interesting and thorough.  I commend the CF on what appears to be a very good program.

Good luck to those in training and thanks to all of you for your service and professionalism.

Jim  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 17, 2010, 11:25:34
  Hello, I applied for a vot to Aerospace control operator (169) and i was offered aerospace control - radar control (170). Just wondering what the difference is in the trades, if they both take the same course, and if not ,what kind of course curriculum would i expect as an ac op? Someone told me yesterday the course has an %80 failure rate. Is that the truth? Or just someone trying to justify how great they are for finishing the course?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 18, 2010, 13:02:46
Anyone? My best guess is that they split the occupation into 2 seperate trades, weapons, and air traffic. Can anyone validate this?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 18, 2010, 13:16:07
From the occupational specs, found at http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/downloads/specifications/english/OS_E_AC_OP_00337.doc (http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/downloads/specifications/english/OS_E_AC_OP_00337.doc)

a.   Aerospace Operator (AERO OP). The function of the Reg F AC OP assigned to the AERO OP sub-division is to operate aerospace radars, computers, communications and other sensor systems in the surveillance and control of airspace, both Canadian and Foreign.  The AERO OP participates in tactical operations during air sovereignty, domestic airspace defence, counter-drug smuggling missions, peace keeping aerospace missions and enforcement of Canadian, NORAD and NATO aerospace policies. The AERO OP controls and co-ordinates the movement of military/civilian air/ground traffic at CF aerodromes and tactical units.  Duties include: surveillance, identification, RADIL, operations, ground control, tower/terminal data coordination, Wing/COC/RCC operations, command control and communications (C3) and operational administration.
b.   Radar Controller (RDR CONT).  The function of the Reg F AC OP assigned to Radar Control sub-division is to operate air traffic control radar, computers and communications system in the provision of a safe and expeditious control of civilian and military air traffic at CF or deployed aerodromes.  RDR CONTR duties include: Ensuring serviceability and accuracy of all equipment, assist or conduct radar flight checks, recognise and respond to airborne emergency, adjust control procedures and radar equipment to aircraft configuration and weather condition, monitor instrument approaches, process and issue ATC clearances and instruction, flight advisory, relay aerodrome and weather information.

In a nutshell, that looks to me like aerodrome services and PAR.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: recceguy on March 18, 2010, 13:54:21
 ;D
(https://Milnet.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi61.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh76%2Ftbloggins%2FTalent.jpg&hash=a8e6fec8310f8c944665a8ad988aacce)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PapaJohn on March 20, 2010, 18:40:38
I'm close to finishing BMOQ and will be posted for OJE, and am wondering what you actually do on OJE. Also, how long have recent grads been waiting before they get on course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: BunnyFooFoo on March 21, 2010, 00:27:10
Do you know where you're going yet? When is your course grad date? Feel free to PM me and I will let you know a little more if I can...  From what I have personally experienced, every Wing does it a little differently.  First you have to do a Distance Learning package, then spend time in either your Tower (for VFR)  or Terminal (for IFR), or whatever Weapons does (I have no idea) absorbing knowledge, then you go on to NavCan in Cornwall.

As for courses, I know people going to Cornwall in September and people not going until next year; it depends on your course, I guess.  BTW, get used to marching again...

I'm pretty sure there are WAY better answers than mine on this site somewhere... use the search function is the best advice I can give you; I know when I was looking I found some awesome info.

 


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: vroom on March 21, 2010, 13:31:16
Is the training for AEC and AC OP at the same location?

Is CFASCO co-located with NAV Canada?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 21, 2010, 17:13:58
I hate to use that line (I sound old and grumpy), but clearly you have not used the search function. Those questions have been answered in at least two or three threads I can think of.

But Yes. and Yes.

Next time use search.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Formulasteel on March 22, 2010, 17:01:14
I graduated Basic in December 09. Going Weapons, and wont be going on course in Cornwall till January 2011. If you're going weapons, get ready to wait!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on March 24, 2010, 23:01:50
Formulasteel:

Ok, how do you know you are going weapons before you’ve even set foot in Cornwall at the NavCanada facility?  Don’t you do the course in Cornwall, and THEN decide (or have your instructors decide based on your in-class performance)?

Waiting 1 YEAR from time of BMOQ to Cornwall seems a bit much.  Why don’t they send you for 2nd language training during this period of time?  Seems like just the right amount of time to learn a 2nd language if done intensive.

PapaJohn:

I think OJE is on-the-job training, right?  Ok, so how do you do on-the-job training when you haven’t had your trade training?  How could a doctor or lawyer do their “on-the-job” training (i.e. residency and articling) if they haven’t gone to medical school or law school first?  I don’t understand how you do on-the-job training without first doing the in-class component in Cornwall, ON.   

Thanks….
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 25, 2010, 11:47:09
I searched every single thread after typing ac op, and found nothing of the sort. Could you be so kind as to post a link proving me wrong?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 25, 2010, 11:57:58
Yup! All you ever dreamed of here:

http://northbay.mil.ca/22Wing/CFSACO/Main/index_e.asp
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 25, 2010, 12:38:20
Formulasteel:

Ok, how do you know you are going weapons before you’ve even set foot in Cornwall at the NavCanada facility?  Don’t you do the course in Cornwall, and THEN decide (or have your instructors decide based on your in-class performance)?

I'm no expert, but here: AF Trg assigns streams after BMOQ. Based on which you are loaded on one of three courses in Cornwall. Any other info (presumably from CFRC) was incorrect.

Quote
Waiting 1 YEAR from time of BMOQ to Cornwall seems a bit much.  Why don’t they send you for 2nd language training during this period of time?  Seems like just the right amount of time to learn a 2nd language if done intensive.

As an anglo going AEC you don't need french until Major. Since you may never get there, why spend the $$$? That is the thinking. Yes it is a bit long, but currently nothing compared to some other trades i.e. int 2-3 yrs and pilot 3-4 yrs. During that time you will do meaningless tasks and OJE...

Quote
PapaJohn:

I think OJE is on-the-job training, right?  Ok, so how do you do on-the-job training when you haven’t had your trade training?  How could a doctor or lawyer do their “on-the-job” training (i.e. residency and articling) if they haven’t gone to medical school or law school first?  I don’t understand how you do on-the-job training without first doing the in-class component in Cornwall, ON.   

Thanks….

OJE is NOT like residency. Military is not like law or medicine. Where do you get that idea from???

OJE means observing squadron life, the job, practicing some skills so you have better chances at passing the course and then are functional earlier when you get to your unit. It's also about killing time b/w courses. What else do you suggest? E.I.?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Formulasteel on March 25, 2010, 12:47:56
The first day I showed up at my base, my Captain asked me what stream I wanted to go. I said Weapons, and at the end of the day he said, alright you got Weapons, and you're probably going to course next January. Now since Im at a base that doesnt do Weapons, I am doing Electronic Wafare, a couple OPME's and DL courses till I leave. There are 4 guys here waiting to go Weapons. We spend our days studying, and waiting.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 25, 2010, 13:03:27
May I ask where your base is?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 25, 2010, 14:40:48
 I was well aware of this websites existence, and i thank you for sending a link to it.  Kind of pretentious of you though to accuse me of not using the search function when you can't even back up your accusations with a solid link that actually explains my question, and well you can read everything on that link and it still fails to explain my question.  Furthermore, your link was not even a topic on this forum!  For future reference, it would be nice of you to avoid accusations of not using the search function, when you cant even back up the question a person may have with previous information from the forum, no need for you to be "that guy".
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PMedMoe on March 25, 2010, 15:02:25
darkness, not that it really matters, but I think TimBit's response about not using the search function was aimed at vroom, and not at you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on March 25, 2010, 15:05:06
The training path for an ac op is as such - your first phase includes entry level training in both weapons and traffic. From that course, conducted over a 3-4 month period at CFSACO, you will be posted into either side, to an appropriate base. (ie: Weapons - North Bay/Traffic - Trenton, Comox, Moose Jaw etc). For someone who is posted into a Terminal Data position, the next step *might* be the PAR Controller course, or for the Tower Data person, the Ground Controller course. It all depends on where you are and what the Career Mgr has planned.

Not too sure about what happens next for a Weapons person, as I am not that familiar with that side of the trade.

I am unsure of the difference to which you asking about, but that is how it is done once you are thru basic and posted to a base awaiting your first phase of training.

By all means, anyone is welcome to jump in and correct me.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 25, 2010, 15:21:37
 My apology's timbit if moe is correct. Thanks for the good response, seems there is so much variety in this trade. I have been in the infantry for nearly 8 years, and finally got my offer to start course on july 14th. Already have the precourse material memorized, and im now going through the VFR, IFR notes, although i think its for the AES course? I was hoping to go to the air defense side of the trade, but my wife is a traffic tech, and we want to be posted together. Judging by the notes i have studies, it appears the air traffic side offers a much broader spectrum of postings. What is the course difficulty like. I have people telling me that it has an 80% failure rate, and i have ppl telling me that they drank every night, and didnt open a book and made it through no problem.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: sinistersuperspy on March 25, 2010, 15:37:03
Well  - No matter what you hear - if you give it your full effort - there should be no reason not to pass. I know there are a few ex-infantry guys on the AC op course right now doing just fine, balancing down time with crunch time.  At the end of the day, it's your career course, or second career course, at any rate, so you will have to decide how important it is to you. CFSACO is a very welcoming environment to take a course in, but it is also very easy to fall back into bad habits. Trust me! Personal experience! lol.

In terms of which stream you want, I'm not sure you get much choice. A friend of mine just checked out as a Terminal Data Ac op here in Trenton, and was fortunate to get the stream and posting he wanted. Even for us Officers now, choice is potentially limited, depending upon time and scheduling constraints.  You may not get weapons at first - but it may be possible to switch later.

I will be returning to the IFR course in August, so perhaps I will see you there - we chat over a pint in the Jet Set.

SSS
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on March 25, 2010, 17:05:40
My apology's timbit if moe is correct. Thanks for the good response, seems there is so much variety in this trade. I have been in the infantry for nearly 8 years, and finally got my offer to start course on july 14th. Already have the precourse material memorized, and im now going through the VFR, IFR notes, although i think its for the AES course? I was hoping to go to the air defense side of the trade, but my wife is a traffic tech, and we want to be posted together. Judging by the notes i have studies, it appears the air traffic side offers a much broader spectrum of postings. What is the course difficulty like. I have people telling me that it has an 80% failure rate, and i have ppl telling me that they drank every night, and didnt open a book and made it through no problem.

Yes sorry I was responding to vroom!  :blotto: No YOUR question was a good one... Did you see the link to the occupational specialty? It would  tend to support your idea about the weapon/traffic split.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on March 25, 2010, 18:49:30
No, i didnt. I printed all the notes for the IFR, VFR portion. I think its intended for the officers course, but still an interesting read, ill check out the weapons portion tom. Trying to learn as much as i can about the trade before i start OJT in a couple of weeks. Dont want to waste anyones time by knowing nothing once ojt starts. As much pride as i have wearing the RCR capbadge, it will be really nice to start wearing blues even if ill go back to wearing the cornflake. Is there any ac ops here that can refer me to some material i can study before going on course? Already have the precourse package memorized, have the weather manual, and reading over the IFR, VFR, and the 13 wing sabre routine orders. As of now though, most of the QL5 notes are still chinese to me.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: srhodes on March 29, 2010, 00:59:10
Thank you for the replies.
In regards to the french, doesn’t knowing how to speak the 2nd official language indeed help you in attaining the rank of Major?  Just been hearing different stuff in regards to 2nd language training for CF officers (some getting to it very early on and others later).  I think it’s a safe bet to assume that newly minted francophone officers get the english course right away, so why wouldn’t anglo officers get the same courtesy for  the french training considering that 2nd language fluency is an important factor that does help get you promoted to senior level positions in what is a designated bilingual institution.   

Yes, military is different, but the point I was trying to make in regards to the medicine/law thing is that I’ve never heard of getting ‘on-the-job’ training without first receiving some foundational instruction related to the specific job  FIRST.   Listen, certainly better than EI as you suggested, but just seemed strange to me.  That’s all.  And a bit discouraging to think that it could be 2 years before you even begin to start training/learning about what sparked your interest in the CF to begin with.

Thank you….


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: prontogryphon on March 31, 2010, 09:49:16
Hey everyone! I finally got my CT into the AC OP trade, and should be starting my 3's in about a month! can't wait..

I had one small question (and i've read all of the threads about AC OP, but I may have missed the answer) I wanted to know: for the PAR side of the trade, are people selected at random, on a volunteer basis, or based on operational requirements at the time? I realize I probably have a few years before I actually go on my 5's, but some information would be helpful...

tThanks for all the info that's been put on the site already.. I can't wait to actually start to work!!  :salute:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on April 02, 2010, 02:03:51
@srhodes

You are correct, in that a good second language profile may be worth up to 5 points (of 100) when you get to a point where your file goes before a promotion board.  It wasn't that long ago that second language training (SLT) was completed immediately after BOTP, so those who hadn't previously tested or tested out would stay up to 9 additional months in St. Jean in order to achieve a B profile.  I believe this changed around late 06, after I went through, and that the only people sticking around for SLT after basic are the pilots, due to significant training delays (this may have changed).  I didn't go to RMC, but I'm pretty sure that SLT is still a part of their programme as well.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that new francophone officers are given preferential slots for language training.  In any case, you don't even enter your expected promotion zone (when your file may go to the board) until 4 years after making Captain, so if you want to work on your language skills, you have time.  Many bases offer language training on location, so once you're posted you can ask your chain of command to get you on one of these courses.  They also have 10 week SLT courses in St. Jean, as well as online/computer resources (like Rosetta Stone) that could be viable options.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on April 02, 2010, 02:11:02
@Old Guy

You're right, our controllers are officers, with the exception of Precision Approach Radar (PAR) controllers, which is an enlisted sub-specification. 

A big difference between our structure and yours (USAF) is that our occupation ended up merging ATC with what you guys refer to as ABMs (air battle managers - the airborne command and control folks you mentioned).

Cheers!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Frax on April 03, 2010, 23:03:18
I am currently doing my BMOQ at Saint-Jean and I'm francophone. I need to reach the CBB level in English in order to leave Saint-Jean after my BMOQ. If I don't, I'll spend some more time at the Mega on SLT. Yuk! I got E and C at the written exams but I'm still waiting for the result of my oral evaluation.
Two weeks ago, they asked us to give our preferences for OJT posting after the BMOQ. I put 1) Shearwater, 2) Cold Lake and 3) Trenton, but I'm afraid I might be posted to Bagotville just because I'm francophone. I heard that you don't usually get to Shearwater as a first posting, but I'd really like to go at Cold Lake too. More exotic to me than Bagotville... I can't wait to know where I'm going!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Formulasteel on April 06, 2010, 13:46:34
I'm in Moose Jaw right now. And it wasn't one of my choices. But now that I'm here, I love it. From what I hear the single shacks here are the best in the whole CF. Where ever you wind up for OJT, you're there for a short time, so enjoy it.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on April 06, 2010, 15:39:56
Are you ? (there for a short time) How long 'til you go on your course?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Formulasteel on April 07, 2010, 16:34:00
It'll either be September or January when I start in Cornwall
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: generalmeng on June 14, 2010, 13:44:14
I just got an interview offer from the CFRC (AEC DEO), can some one tell me how to find out more about the AEC job background so I can be more prepare for my interview? Currently I just google the job title and read from random web pages.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 21, 2010, 21:25:31
http://www.forces.ca/interactive/controller/splash.html
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: OkanaganHeat on July 30, 2010, 20:00:02
I have just been merit listed for LCIS tech but when talking with the Captain about my application he suggested that I may want to consider AEC CEOTP. I served as a Fire Control Systems Land tech after high school and left to go to college after my initial contract. I have since had a number of technical and support jobs as well as completing a Computer Information Systems diploma. My CFAT score must have been really high due to the response I get from the people that have seen my file.

My question is; Is AEC closed for the year and I have to wait until April for new openings since that seems to be what I am told so far for almost all trades or is this just a temporary correction for the training cycle?

After reading all of the information here as well as the website,  browsing MANOP, and having the opportunity to chat with a Retired Major that was an AEC it seems that this would be a better career choice for me. Any advice would be helpful.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: darknesss on August 05, 2010, 10:25:24
Did you end up going on course already prontogryphon? I received my ct around the same time, began ojt here in gagetown mid may, and my course date is september 7th.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on September 26, 2010, 17:57:05
Darkness, I haven't been on the site for awhile which is why I didn't see these posts until now.  I guess you're already on your course but I'm going to post anyway for others coming along.

The AC Op trade as a whole is 170.  This includes both the ATC and AD sides.  If you specialize as a PAR controller, you will change to a 169.

Take some time to read through your pre-study package before course.  Typically, you are given the first week to prepare for the test on this.  As for studying extra stuff outside of the package, there really isn't a need.  As long as you pay attention during class you will be fine.  On my course, we had a study session the night before each test and that really helped everyone.  Above all else, work as a team within the class.  If there is even one person struggling with a sim, go in with them at night or on the weekend.  It will help them and increase your knowledge too.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: OkanaganHeat on September 30, 2010, 12:55:50
With AEC now a held occupation, is the system now full?

Since originally applying for the forces and then being asked to consider this trade I have become extremely interested and excited about the options to me. I guess that being born at a radar station and moving to mere miles from Geilenkirchen as a child and then as a teen touring CFS Kamloops regularly had given me exposure to the trade without realizing it.

I can only hope that once the hold is released and I am able to complete my interview that I will be a worthy candidate for employment.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: TimBit on October 01, 2010, 14:53:28
Alloted positions for this year have been filled. Hopefully, more to come next year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 04, 2010, 08:26:05
Timbit is partially correct in that external intake is closed (ie DEO, off the street type folks). However CFR and ROTP will continue to have intake allotments. It should be noted that AEC has all its availble training slots filled until 2012. Those awaiting training won't just be sitting around though. There are some new and creative things being done to get folks meaningfuly employed as soon as possible including qualification as a ground controller.

The occupation will achieve full health in the new year (first time in a decade or more) and the future employment for AECs looks very bright indeed.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: OkanaganHeat on October 04, 2010, 13:43:20
Thanks for the update Aerospaced_out.

Sounds like I may have a bit of a wait on my hands for a trade that I was asked to consider and have almost completed the application process for. It certainly sounds like there are a lot of new and interesting things out there with the occupation and if all goes well will be partaking in them soon and am glad that the future has such promise.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on October 05, 2010, 10:49:30
The training backlog is primarily the result of the system not being adequately prepared for the generous nature of the recources being offered at CFSAO.

As I said in my PM, I waited 18 months for training some 20 years ago. Most pilots today would consider a only a year wait to be a luxury. All things are relative. In the past AEC didn't have backlogs but the occupation was on the brink of collapse from personnel shortages. Backlogs are a pain and it is being agressively worked on as I said earlier. Waits won't be as bad as they sound. Time flies if you insist on having fun and making yourself relevant.













Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: IBM on October 09, 2010, 20:03:30
I'm sort of in the same boat as OkanaganHeat right now. I'm doing a CT + OT from P Res Sig Op to Reg F AEC, did all my medical & interview earlier this year, but was told around Aug that the trade is full for transfers this year. Have to wait until next fiscal year (after 30 Mar 11  I think) to find out if they are taking any more transfers in.

Kinda sucks but what can you do? Like Aerospaced_out mentioned when the system is full & backlogged, I think all you can do is wait out.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Desirea701 on October 27, 2010, 19:52:49
Weapons is great!!!  So much better than the crappy ATC side.   ;D


When you go weapons, you definitely have to go to North Bay first.  I've never heard of anyone not doing their time in the Bay.  You have to do surveillance, then ID, and you could possibly do RADIL too, I think.  Then there's opportunity to move to weapons tech, which is a much more interesting and involved job.  You sit beside the controller and assist them during their missions with helping them get the information they need, coordinating with outside agencies (ATC, centres, etc.) and being a second pair of eyes on the scope. 

You could be posted to either Cold Lake or Bagotville to work in one of the tactical radar squadrons as a WASO (Weapons Assistant Sensor Operator... ?).  It's much more fun being in one of the deployable squadrons than in the Bay, in my opinion.

As for AWACS, I'm not exactly sure but I think you may be right - Sgt+.  Don't quote me on that. 

Check out this video:

http://dev.multimediaservices.ca/newmedia/controller/

It's for AEC, but you could still get a better idea of the differences between the three sides of the trade.  I wonder if there is an ACOp video like this one?

Any other questions feel free to ask.



The link to this video does not work anymore. Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: OkanaganHeat on October 27, 2010, 22:10:58
The location for the videos for both AEC and AC Op is http://www.forces.ca/interactive/controller/splash.html (http://www.forces.ca/interactive/controller/splash.html). They are also now on the browse jobs page of http://www.forces.ca/en/home (http://www.forces.ca/en/home).

Good Luck on your training.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Little T on January 08, 2011, 21:02:39
Hello! I would like to get some information on this position please....I would like to know how the training program looks...
From what i understand there is basic training and then a 2 month training program. What happens after that? I'm trying to figure out how long it would be until i was posted somewere. I have a dog and want to know how long i will be away from her. From reading it seems there is futher on the job training, but is that at your posting?

Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jcan on January 09, 2011, 11:36:17
My uncle is an ACO. The training is INTENSE.....INTENSE!!! The 2 month training is followed by several other examinations and so on. I was speaking to a recruiter in Kitchener, Ont. I had asked about the ACO career option, and she said it was a very good line of work to get into, however the qualifying examination is one of the toughest to pass. She mentioned that in 3 years, she had only seen 3 people successfully pass the exam. Her suggestions where to purchase a Ait Traffic Control Practice course book on-line....and go from there.  As for the dog, plan on being away from her for a bit, and perhaps ask your parents/friends to take care of her/him while u are in training
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Little T on January 09, 2011, 13:07:43
Thanks! My mom will take my dog while im i trainig. Does your uncle or anyone you know, know if once complete the two months and the other exams if you get posted after that? I was figuring 6 months to a year until i was posted.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on January 09, 2011, 14:10:27
She mentioned that in 3 years, she had only seen 3 people successfully pass the exam.

Now, i am not an AC Op and i dont know what their training is like but, over the last few years in the Air Force, i have personaly seen many fresh gradutes from the course. I did not bother to count but it was way more than 3 so i think that when you were told that, it was bit of an exageration.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on January 21, 2011, 17:50:09
My uncle is an ACO. The training is INTENSE.....INTENSE!!! The 2 month training is followed by several other examinations and so on. I was speaking to a recruiter in Kitchener, Ont. I had asked about the ACO career option, and she said it was a very good line of work to get into, however the qualifying examination is one of the toughest to pass. She mentioned that in 3 years, she had only seen 3 people successfully pass the exam. Her suggestions where to purchase a Ait Traffic Control Practice course book on-line....and go from there.  As for the dog, plan on being away from her for a bit, and perhaps ask your parents/friends to take care of her/him while u are in training

I have just come across this thread, and I see that you are muted and will not be able to respond to this post.  However, I wanted to post a rebuttal to your response to help others out when they search.

The NCM side of the trade is AC Op, the officer side is AEC.  Neither are called ACO.  There are portions of the AEC trade that can be very intense and require a lot of studying and training.  The only qualifying exam is your initial aptitude test.  It is the same test that everyone else writes.  Whether you are qualified for the trade will depend on your results on it.

The suggestion of purchasing a book on ATC is not recommended.  Only half of the AC Op QL3 course is dedicated to the air traffic side, and none of that is as a controller.  For AEC's, the trade is split into 3 choices:  VFR, IFR and Weapons.  Only 2 of those will involve ATC and what you need to learn, you will be taught on course and required to study as a pre-study package.

Little T:  I responded to another one of your posts in the "Air Force Support Trades" boards.  After you have read through the numerous posts on this trade and you have further questions, please post them in an appropriate thread within that sub-board.

Mods, could you please either lock this thread, move it to the AF support board, or join it with another thread there?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 04, 2011, 21:53:36
I have been reading this site for many hours and before I send my application in on monday. I am having a hard time choosing  a trade.

I read that if i choose the navy (Nav Comm)  I would only get 7 hours of sleep in a row and have to work 12 hours shifts (split up) (is this true?) Do you get weekends off in the navy? (don't laugh LOL) or do you work 5 days/6 days a week?

If I choose Aerospace Control, do they work 8 hours days and go home?  or what are the shifts/hours like? Also are there any postings in Western Canada or are all the postings in eastern canada?

I want to be able to do my job and go home at night, have a life. 40 hour work weeks? same pay?

It sounds like the navy is a whole other level of commitment and that I would not have any life outside of the boat LOL 60 hour workweeks same pay?

Thanks for some advice. 

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on February 04, 2011, 22:04:39
I have been reading this site for many hours and before I send my application in on monday. I am having a hard time choosing  a trade.

I read that if i choose the navy (Nav Comm)  I would only get 7 hours of sleep in a row and have to work 12 hours shifts (split up) (is this true?) Do you get weekends off in the navy? (don't laugh LOL) or do you work 5 days/6 days a week?

If I choose Aerospace Control, do they work 8 hours days and go home?  or what are the shifts/hours like? Also are there any postings in Western Canada or are all the postings in eastern canada?

I want to be able to do my job and go home at night, have a life. 40 hour work weeks? same pay?

It sounds like the navy is a whole other level of commitment and that I would not have any life outside of the boat LOL 60 hour workweeks same pay?

Thanks for some advice.

I was a NavComm for 15 years until my transfer to Aerospace Control Operator (AC Op).  And yes, they are completely different worlds.

In the navy, your work time will depend on whether the ship is alongside or sailing.  If you are alongside, then your typical days would be regular 8 hour work days, Mon to Fri with weekends off.  The only extra work time added to this would be when you are duty which is a 24 hour requirement to stay on the ship.  I say "typical" day, as this can be longer (ex. if you are preparing the ship for a sail etc) or shorter (absolutely nothing to do so do your nothing elsewhere).  When you are sailing, you will be on the ship 24/7 while at sea, and in a watch rotation.  You will get enough sleep (most days/nights), honestly.  Sailing times will vary greatly from ship to ship, coast to coast and day to day.  You could be out for a day, a month or 6 months.  To sum it up, not a whole lot of routine/schedule in the navy.  But, it is a great experience.  Just isn't for everyone.

As an AC Op, it would depend on where you are posted.  Most of the positions, you will begin as a shift worker.  These can be either 8 or 12 hour shifts, but they are only a few days/nights at a time and then a few days off.  Not guaranteed that those days off are on calendar weekends, but it is still time off and you are still sleeping in your own bed each day/night (yes, you will be working some nights).  It is much easier to get into a routine as you have a set schedule.  It is easier to get involved in community work, life at home, involvement with kids and school etc.

For both trades, you will make the same pay.  You can't really say an exact number of hours you would be working at either area, as that is based on sailing/shift schedules.  But they are both different worlds, good and bad to each.

If you search here on the site for both trades, there are numerous threads with more exact details on what each position entails.  That may help you make more of a decision if you are still on the fence.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 05, 2011, 19:00:58
Wow!  Thank you sooo much!  I will put Aerospace Control as my first choice then and Nav Comm as my second.  I can't thank you enough for clearing that up for me!

I'm so happy to hear that we can switch careers too, with some time in.  I'm worried I will utterly hate/suck at being a sailor (no privacy sleeping qtr part)  but I love the ocean and would be a good Nav Comm.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Nauticus on February 06, 2011, 20:06:35
I have been reading this site for many hours and before I send my application in on monday. I am having a hard time choosing  a trade.

I read that if i choose the navy (Nav Comm)  I would only get 7 hours of sleep in a row and have to work 12 hours shifts (split up) (is this true?) Do you get weekends off in the navy? (don't laugh LOL) or do you work 5 days/6 days a week?

If I choose Aerospace Control, do they work 8 hours days and go home?  or what are the shifts/hours like? Also are there any postings in Western Canada or are all the postings in eastern canada?

I want to be able to do my job and go home at night, have a life. 40 hour work weeks? same pay?

It sounds like the navy is a whole other level of commitment and that I would not have any life outside of the boat LOL 60 hour workweeks same pay?

Thanks for some advice.

I would reconsider if you want to be in the Canadian Forces, then.

You are paid a salary. You work and train as they need you. This is true for any trade that you join.

Yes, you can have a life, but the CF takes precedent over everything and anything else you do. If this sounds okay to you, then by all means, apply. If not, you might want to consider a civilian job.

The choice is yours, but I suggest you read more. The military is far from a "regular" job.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 06, 2011, 22:28:26
I understand that and look forward to serving my country however they need me.
 
 I am single with no kids so I can work  when they want me too, nights, days, weekend,.  The year at sea is what didn't sound so good to me, working 12 hours a day for an entire year, in a bunk bed with zero privacy, ever.  So I switched to Aerspace.   I just want to be able to come home to my own bed more than not.   I don't mind working long,  hard or working weird hours whenever they need me too and I fully understand the sacrifice I am making.

 I was made for this, as they say LOL

Ps.  I am leaving a high paying job to come do this. I have no debt and I am obviously not doing this for the money lol  Just as long as I can pay my rent and bills I will be happy.  It will be nice to do something that matters.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on February 06, 2011, 22:32:27
I understand that and look forward to serving my country however they need me.
 
 I am single with no kids so I can work  when they want me too, nights, days, weekend,.  The year at sea is what didn't sound so good to me, working 12 hours a day for an entire year, in a bunk bed with zero privacy, ever.  So I switched to Aerspace.   I just want to be able to come home to my own bed more than not.   I don't mind working long,  hard or working weird hours whenever they need me too and I fully understand the sacrifice I am making.

 I was made for this, as they say LOL

Whoa, who said anything about being at sea for a year?  The longest trip you'll see will be 6 months, and those are few and far between.  Even then, you'll see lots of foreign ports during a trip that long, so it's not all work and no play.

That said, if you're looking to spend time a little closer to home, you're more likely to encounter that as an AC Op than as a Nav Comm.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ex-Dragoon on February 06, 2011, 22:34:55
Whoa, who said anything about being at sea for a year?  The longest trip you'll see will be 6 months, and those are few and far between.  Even then, you'll see lots of foreign ports during a trip that long, so it's not all work and no play.

That said, if you're looking to spend time a little closer to home, you're more likely to encounter that as an AC Op than as a Nav Comm.

Also depends on if the OP is assigned to a sea going unit right away.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 06, 2011, 22:35:17
The recruiter told me I could be a sea six months up to a year or two depending on the world situations and where and how they would need us  :salute:  The MARS sections says plan on your first 4 years at sea.  (they must mean living on the boat? not actually away at sea?)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 06, 2011, 22:38:31
Whoa, who said anything about being at sea for a year?  The longest trip you'll see will be 6 months, and those are few and far between.  Even then, you'll see lots of foreign ports during a trip that long, so it's not all work and no play.

That said, if you're looking to spend time a little closer to home, you're more likely to encounter that as an AC Op than as a Nav Comm.

phew!I'm really glad to hear that! I had visions of never seeing my pets or friends again LOL I feel better about accepting Nav Comm as my second now.   I can do six months . (I was thinking I would be gone from my pets/family/friends every year for six months for the rest of my life)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on February 06, 2011, 22:40:48
The recruiter told me I could be a sea six months up to a year or two depending on the world situations and where and how they would need us  :salute:  The MARS sections says plan on your first 4 years at sea.  (they must mean living on the boat? not actually away at sea?)

I think you might've misunderstood what they were telling you.  The longest trip you'll see is six months, but you'd be posted to a ship for 2-4 years.  You'd likely be doing more frequent, shorter trips than the six month deployments, but still likely spend more time alongside in Halifax/Esquimalt than you'd actually spend at sea.

When they say plan on your first 4 years at sea, they mean posted to a ship, not posted to a desk in Ottawa or somewhere like that.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 06, 2011, 22:43:02
I think you might've misunderstood what they were telling you.  The longest trip you'll see is six months, but you'd be posted to a ship for 2-4 years.  You'd likely be doing more frequent, shorter trips than the six month deployments, but still likely spend more time alongside in Halifax/Esquimalt than you'd actually spend at sea.

When they say plan on your first 4 years at sea, they mean posted to a ship, not posted to a desk in Ottawa or somewhere like that.

Yes I totally did! LOL thanks for the patience with this newbie.  Hmmm Nav Comm is sounding more attractive by the minute ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 06, 2011, 22:47:17
The longest trip you'll see is six months,

Did one of the CPFs not spend 9 months out in 2001/02 ??
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on February 06, 2011, 23:09:20
Did one of the CPFs not spend 9 months out in 2001/02 ??

If I remember correctly, one of them did...but I'm not certain it was that time frame.  Whatever ship it was, they were near the end of their 6 month NATO, and they were diverted to the Gulf...either for Gulf War II, or to start up Op Apollo.  Pretty sure it was one of those.  Very, very rare circumstance, though.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on February 06, 2011, 23:28:49
  Very, very rare circumstance, though.

Yes but it does illustrate why using absolutes such as "The longest trip you'll see is six months" is not a good idea. Applicants will take that as gospel and then complain about it. Remember that the Op in this case misunderstood most of what she was told.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Occam on February 07, 2011, 07:01:35
Yes but it does illustrate why using absolutes such as "The longest trip you'll see is six months" is not a good idea. Applicants will take that as gospel and then complain about it. Remember that the Op in this case misunderstood most of what she was told.

Oh give me a break.  The longest scheduled trip is 6 months, same as it was when I joined.  We were once scheduled for a 5 month NATO, which got extended by a month mid-way through.  Guess what?  We complained.  Its a normal state for sailors to be in, complaining.  The old man only worries when the crew stops complaining.

Here, is this better?

The longest scheduled trip is six months.  However, once in a while, a war will come along and cause all rules to be tossed out the window.    ::)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: WonderGirl on February 11, 2011, 20:15:05
LOL thanks guys!   I sent my application in today with Aerospace Control as my first choice and Nav Comm as my second. I will be happy to do either for the rest of my career.  thanks again for the help!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jemcgrg on March 10, 2011, 09:25:03
Hey, I am just wondering around how long Phase 3 (occupational) training for AEC generally is? And how hard is it to maintain a relationship/family while becoming an AEC in the canadian forces? Especially given that my boyfriend is in the army.

Thanks! I appreciate any responses.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on March 10, 2011, 12:15:27
Especially given that my boyfriend is in the army.

Have you researched the AEC trade and what possible postings you could be assigned?  There are no AEC in Edmonton, Wainwright, Shilo, Meaford, Petawawa, Quebec and Gagetown.  So unless your BF gets an OT to a blue trade or gets a job working at the WRTF - I see long distance in your future.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on March 10, 2011, 12:25:23
Hey, I am just wondering around how long Phase 3 (occupational) training for AEC generally is? And how hard is it to maintain a relationship/family while becoming an AEC in the canadian forces? Especially given that my boyfriend is in the army.

Thanks! I appreciate any responses.

(all of these are approx. times)

On the ATC side:  VFR - 6 weeks, IFR - 4 1/2 months.  On the AD side:  Weapons - 3 1/2 months

Not sure about ATC.  But when you finish Weapons, you will then go to North Bay where you have another 3 1/2 months of training before you are given your posting message (most stay in North Bay).

All of the AEC streams are difficult and there is alot of weekend studying and practical times.  Do not count on any free time to be able to travel somewhere else.  You will most likely get a weekend here and there that you feel you are able to go places.  But the best way to look at it is that you are busy from start to finish, and make no other plans.

As for maintaining a relationship, it can be done for sure.  Just realize that you might not see each other for that whole training time.  But you have full access to phone and internet.  (I had more written re: relationship in different elements, but I see Zoomie has covered that.)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on March 12, 2011, 17:00:47
Zoomie - Sorry to threadjack slightly, but we do have a few (very few) AEC positions in Edmonton, Pet, Valcatrazz, and Gagetown.  Some are SATCOs, others as G3 Air, FAC, etc.  However, none of these are first ops tours...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jemcgrg on March 17, 2011, 11:33:53
Thanks everyone! Yes I have done a lot of research on it, but there didn't seem to be anything that even mildly indicated how long Phase lll would be so I definitely appreciate the information.

I know it will be long distance for some time, I'm anticipating about 2 years of being away with all the training I'll have to do, assuming I make it through of course, I know AEC training is difficult to get through and a lot of hard work, not to mention being stressful.

Thanks for the information and any additional details anyone has let me know.

I was also wondering though, I've heard from some unreliable sources that as an AEC i'll basically only be doing the work from the trade for a few years and then I will be more of a paper pusher. This sounds completely inaccurate to me but I would like to have the confirmation that I'll actually get to work in the trade I am being trained in! This is coming from an NCO who I am certain doesn't have much respect for officers so as far as I am concerned this makes them quite unreliable.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on March 17, 2011, 23:59:15
Well, there's always admin and paperwork... That being said, I'm guessing what they meant is that in order to be 'well-rounded', we generally have to have both Ops and Staff experience.  Your ops postings are basically your primary (operational) duty, whereas staff (to include formal instructional postings now) might be what they're referring to as 'paper pushing'.  Of course, you don't necessarily have to follow such a career model - I've met plenty of people who have only had operational postings.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jemcgrg on March 18, 2011, 11:28:43
Yeah, I would anticipate there being a mixture but not just going from working as an AEC doing AEC work for like 2 years and then just signing my name to things for my remaining career. lol.

Thanks for the clarification!

(I'm pretty sure they are just jealous that I will be their superior, lol)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on March 26, 2011, 10:26:44
No, there's a decent mix of ops- and staff-type work through the ranks, so you'll get your chance to do what you're trained to do.  Of course, I had a buddy (in trade) go off to a staff job after a bit less than a year of a first op posting - needs of the service, and all.  I wouldn't say this is the norm in our career-field.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: jemcgrg on March 28, 2011, 11:10:43
Ahhh... well hopefully that won't be what happens but I guess I won't rule it out as a possibility.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: generalmeng on April 01, 2011, 15:52:09
April 1st is here, Aerospaced_out, are there any news on what the trade is like in the new year? such as openings, training backlogs...etc
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 06, 2011, 11:38:03
April 1st is here, Aerospaced_out, are there any news on what the trade is like in the new year? such as openings, training backlogs...etc

I am sorry to announce that things are not looking good for folks wanting to join AEC this year (2011) especially if they intended to join via DEO (civilian university) or CEOTP (direct from high school).

With the exception of ROTP (military college), we will be closed to external intake for at least the next year.  We will have about 14 internal intake (COR, CFR, etc) this year.  It is not clear to me whether those internal intake numbers will include voluntary OTs.

The next empty slot for an AEC course is Aug 2012.

Those already in the system should know their course date, but as indicated some of them will be waiting until 2012 for a course. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KRJB on April 15, 2011, 21:57:06
Just got accepted as an Aerospace Control Officer.
Will be going to RMC this August. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: tk1234567890 on April 16, 2011, 01:12:48
I am sorry to announce that things are not looking good for folks wanting to join AEC this year (2011) especially if they intended to join via DEO (civilian university) or CEOTP (direct from high school).

With the exception of ROTP (military college), we will be closed to external intake for at least the next year.  We will have about 14 internal intake (COR, CFR, etc) this year.  It is not clear to me whether those internal intake numbers will include voluntary OTs.

The next empty slot for an AEC course is Aug 2012.

Those already in the system should know their course date, but as indicated some of them will be waiting until 2012 for a course.

This is a very sad news for me.  I have been waiting for a DEO AEC position to open since 2009, Oct.  I was told by my Capt that my file has been on the national merit list for quite a while.  I wonder if they will except people on the merit list from not being hired this year. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: edlabonte on April 17, 2011, 22:52:27
AC Op 169/00337.1 is Part NORAD Air Defense part Air Traffic Control
AC Op 170/00337.2 is Precision Approach Radar (PAR) Controller

It's a sub trade so that the PAR Controllers can get spec pay
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 21, 2011, 07:23:01
Quote
I have been waiting for a DEO AEC position to open since 2009, Oct.

Not sure of your particular circumstance but it seems odd that you have been waiting that long. The backlog is a recent phenomena.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: generalmeng on June 14, 2011, 12:08:41
Well, it has been a while since I last check here, any miracle?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: OkanaganHeat on June 14, 2011, 17:10:21
Was phoned by a recruiter this morning and there are zero vacancies for this fiscal year and CEOTP is no longer a recruiting option but can apply for ROTP next year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 17, 2011, 14:14:45
there's a very distinct possibility that next fiscal year there will be no DEO openings
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: generalmeng on June 17, 2011, 16:29:43
any idea why?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 17, 2011, 20:39:37
any idea why?

Simple, the trade is starting to meet its preferred manning levels. For the first time in a long time, AEC is no longer a red trade, in fact we're now at >90% TES making us a yellow trade. Furthermore, we've got enough of a training backlog to last us through to the end of 2012, so bringing in more recruits to sit and wait for training is not a good move financially, hence why DEO and CEOTP are closing off.

I'll check the SIP when I get back to work on Monday to see what the intake numbers for the FY look like.

If you're still interested in the CF aerospace world and are willing to be an NCM, AC Op is still a red trade and could use a few good soldiers. Ain't no shame in being an NCM with a degree :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on June 21, 2011, 13:43:00
if I'm not mistaken - AcOp is a trade with a signing bonus now...?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 21, 2011, 15:29:08
generalmeng: Apologies for the delay. AEC and AC Op Intake is as follows:

Quote
AEC External Intake for FY 11/12 as of 27 May 11
CEOTP: 0/0   
DEO: 0/4
ROTP: 0/30
CT ROTP: 0/?
CT: 0/?


AEC Internal Intake for FY 11/12 as of 27 May 11
In-Svc: 0/8
SCP: 1/1   
BTL Reassign: 2/?
SUTL Reassign: 0/?
CFR: 0/3   
SRCP: 0/0
UTPNCM: 2/2
MPLAN: 0/0
CEOTP: 3/3

AC Op External Intake for FY 11/12 as of 27 May 11
External SEP: 0/0
External: 10/59


AC Op Internal Intake for FY 11/12 as of 27 May 11
Internal SEP: 0/0
Internal: 8/16

As you can see, AEC recruitment is starting to close off as we reach our PML. AEC is forecast to be green at the end of the FY, at 98.1% of our PML, so recruiting figures will adjust accordingly. DEO has only a handful of spots and CEOTP is externally closed off. ROTP remains open as it has a production delay due to university.

AC Op is still quite open though.

if I'm not mistaken - AcOp is a trade with a signing bonus now...?

Grando - the CANFORGEN regarding that was released at the beginning of the month.

Quote
CANFORGEN 102/11 CMP 050/11 011321Z JUN 11
RECRUITMENT ALLOWANCES FOR UNDERSTRENGTH MILITARY OCCUPATIONS
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CANFORGEN 146/10 CMP 062/10 091603Z AUG 10
B. CDS LETTER DATED 18 MAY 11
C. CBI 205.525

EFFECTIVE 1 JUN 11, THE LIST OF OCCUPATIONS ELIGIBLE FOR A RECRUITMENT ALLOWANCE (REF A) IS RESCINDED AND REPLACED BY THE FOLLOWING UNDERSTRENGTH MILITARY OCCUPATIONS LIST (REF B):

MET TECH 00100

COMM RSCH 00120

MLAB TECH 00152

GEO TECH 00238

MED TECH 00334

AC OP 00337

PHARM 00194

THE ALLOWANCE AMOUNTS AND CONDITIONS OF ENTITLEMENT ARE AS SET OUT AT REF C

OPI IS MAJ J.L.G. VILLENEUVE, DPPD 3, (613)995-2071

SIGNED BY RADM A. SMITH, CMP

That said, the signing bonus is only applicable for those who are previously trade qualified IAW CBI 205.525
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: generalmeng on June 24, 2011, 11:50:53
Thank you very much for that detail answer. May I ask a few questions to see if I am reading that correctly. From the post, as of May 27 of 2011, AEC have 4 opening for DEO and none are fill?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: malamudagain on June 24, 2011, 14:59:39
Forgive me if this has been asked previously, but how difficult is it to transfer to an AEC position, if you first join up as an AC OP ?
I am hearing different things from different people.  For example, I've read here that you should "wait it out" for the trade you want.
That it is easier to become an Officer "off the street" than it is to join NCM and then later commission.

However, I've heard from a reliable source (Reg Navy member) that if you join an NCM trade in the Navy, it's quite possible (not overly difficult) to transfer to MARS a few years later. Now, I realize that is Navy, and that things could be different in the Air Force.  But just want to know.  If anything, I could see it as a tremendous selling feature when transfering to AEC from AC OP as you have personal experience in the role, and it would make you a better rounded AEC Officer as you have intimate knowledge of AC OP matters (since you were once one yourself!).

Any comments?  Anyone else thinking about this option?
Yes, the CF wants you to pick a trade you'll like and stick with it.   However, with the low intake numbers, one has to adjust to the circumstances.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 25, 2011, 17:45:48
Thank you very much for that detail answer. May I ask a few questions to see if I am reading that correctly. From the post, as of May 27 of 2011, AEC have 4 opening for DEO and none are fill?

Possibly. It could be the case that those slots have been filled but the document has not been updated to reflect that (the information I posted was from an excel spreadsheet on the DWAN). If in doubt, ask your CFRC if there are any DEO AEC positions open.

Forgive me if this has been asked previously, but how difficult is it to transfer to an AEC position, if you first join up as an AC OP ?
I am hearing different things from different people.  For example, I've read here that you should "wait it out" for the trade you want.
That it is easier to become an Officer "off the street" than it is to join NCM and then later commission.

However, I've heard from a reliable source (Reg Navy member) that if you join an NCM trade in the Navy, it's quite possible (not overly difficult) to transfer to MARS a few years later. Now, I realize that is Navy, and that things could be different in the Air Force.  But just want to know.  If anything, I could see it as a tremendous selling feature when transfering to AEC from AC OP as you have personal experience in the role, and it would make you a better rounded AEC Officer as you have intimate knowledge of AC OP matters (since you were once one yourself!).

Any comments?  Anyone else thinking about this option?
Yes, the CF wants you to pick a trade you'll like and stick with it.   However, with the low intake numbers, one has to adjust to the circumstances.

I wish I could give a definite answer as to how difficult it is to go from AC Op to AEC. Certainly it has been done (my CO is a former AC Op, now AEC LCol), and provisions do exist for such a transfer (see the Internal Intake sections from my previous post). Just remember, if you join as an AC Op, you have to compete to become commissioned, it's not an entitlement.

On the value of starting as an NCM versus starting as an Officer, it depends on the individual. I've seen former NCMs who are fantastic as Officers, and some who are mediocre. I've seen Officers who joined off the street who are fantastic leaders, and some who are less-than-stellar. Like all things in military careers, you get out of it what you make of it.

I'm actually undergoing the reverse process, relinquishing my commission and becoming an AC Op. Hopefully once the message gets out of Ottawa and I lose my stripe I can adapt to what life is like as an NCM before I head back to CFSACO.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: malamudagain on June 28, 2011, 19:43:56
Thanks for the info Guy.  Of course I understand that you have to compete, but it is nice to know that it is possible.  If anything, I would think that any military would want to encourage people to develop into other positions, whether other officer positions or NCM postions.   For instance some cool positions are only NCM and I would take a reduction in pay, etc, gladly to do them (e.g. SAR Tech).

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you are interested in a long-term career (and given the low intake number reality currently), maybe it's better to join NCM and then try later to transfer as opposed to waiting on civvy street for who knows how long for something that may or may not happen.  At least you'll be inside gaining experience in Aerospace controlling and will be earning a living.

If it's not too private, do you mind if I ask why you want to go NCM?  I understand that with Officer positions there is more responsibility as you are a "manager" which is an additional stress and burden and there comes a time sometimes in a person's life where they decide they want to focus on their families or personal endeavours more which is totally understandable.  But wanted to hear your reasons if you are willing to share of course.

I have a degree, so I feel like I should "get my money's worth" and go Officer, but if you can have just as much fun, adventure, and challenge with less of the stress, then I would certainly consider AC OP.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 29, 2011, 02:02:29
Thanks for the info Guy.  Of course I understand that you have to compete, but it is nice to know that it is possible.  If anything, I would think that any military would want to encourage people to develop into other positions, whether other officer positions or NCM postions.   For instance some cool positions are only NCM and I would take a reduction in pay, etc, gladly to do them (e.g. SAR Tech).

Funny enough, I know a SAR Tech Sgt who was an AEC Capt. I asked him why he would give up his commission to do that, and he said he'd rather be jumping out of planes than be stuck in an IFRCC. I guess being able to do this job does not exactly equate liking it.

Transfers to NCM trades from Officers happen as well. I know AES Op and SAR Tech have their fair share of former officers.

Quote
Maybe I'm wrong, but if you are interested in a long-term career (and given the low intake number reality currently), maybe it's better to join NCM and then try later to transfer as opposed to waiting on civvy street for who knows how long for something that may or may not happen.  At least you'll be inside gaining experience in Aerospace controlling and will be earning a living.

Depends as to what you want out of a long-term career. Take a look at what an AC Op Pte/Cpl do, and ask yourself, "would I be comfortable performing those duties for the rest of my career", because there's no guarantee you'll get promoted beyond Cpl (some would argue, even Pte), and there's no guarantee you'll get an OT or a Commission. As well, take a look at the Cpl pay scales and contemplate if that would provide enough of a standard of living for you. You might be stuck at Cpl IPC 4 for some time (though Cpl IPC 4 is well paid by Canadian standards).

Quote
If it's not too private, do you mind if I ask why you want to go NCM?  I understand that with Officer positions there is more responsibility as you are a "manager" which is an additional stress and burden and there comes a time sometimes in a person's life where they decide they want to focus on their families or personal endeavours more which is totally understandable.  But wanted to hear your reasons if you are willing to share of course.

It wasn't so much a matter of I'm not suitable to be an Officer, but that I'm not suitable to be AEC. Lots of good officers go to CFSACO, but not many walk out with AEC wings. Last I heard, my IFR course graduated 5 out of 15, and I wasn't one of them.

Just FYI: AEC is an aptitude based trade, in that you either can do it or you can't. Other trades such as Pilot and ACSO are such trades as well, but have aptitude tests at the CFRC level. For AEC, the career course has been functioning as the aptitude test, with an unfortunate high consequence for failure :( They are working on developing and implementing some kind of aptitude test though.

When you fail an initial career course with a cease training recommendation, you either release from the CF, or pick a new trade. Since releasing was not an option (it would cost me a pretty penny to cash out my obligatory service from ROTP), I had to pick a new trade. The PSO gives you a monthly-updated list of trades that are open or closed for reassignments. In my case, I had a choice of Combat Arms or MARS if I wanted to stay as an Officer, and neither of those were particularly appealing to me. Since I knew the Aerospace world fairly well already, I decided to stick with it and go AC Op. Hopefully in a few years I can remuster to CELE and get my stripes back, but I'm content spending a bit of time in the ranks for now.

Quote
I have a degree, so I feel like I should "get my money's worth" and go Officer, but if you can have just as much fun, adventure, and challenge with less of the stress, then I would certainly consider AC OP.

As an NCM, having a degree is handy come PER season, as it's worth points under the education section. You won't be applying it per-se, but it does provide some value.

For fun and adventure, definitely. Lots of chances to do lots of cool things as both an AC Op and as an AEC. The Aerospace community is small too, so across Canada it's like a small family. Its not uncommon for those with 10-15-20 years in to know just about every AEC/AC Op they run into. I've had 2 bosses like that, and I suspect there are plenty more.

Stress is really a per-person, per-situation item. A Pte working 12 hour shifts may well be feeling as much stress as a Maj working a desk 8 hours a day. Your responsibilities change over time, and how they stress you is entirely an individual thing. Its not so bad though, no one I know has described being AEC or AC Op as exceedingly stressful.

Both are rewarding careers for sure, but both are different careers. Definitely there is lots to think about in deciding whether or not to take the plunge sooner rather than later. If AC Op is acceptable and you're willing to accept the ramifications, I say dive in! We'll put you to good use. :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: take2 on June 29, 2011, 13:36:41
Yes, the last IFR course graduated 5 out of 15.  Some left the course in the first few weeks and others in the last few weeks.  Even if you survive the academic side of the course, you never know when something aptitude related will catch up with you.  Several of us are now looking at NCM occupations since the degrees we have do not match up with the officer trades available and of interest.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: aesop081 on June 29, 2011, 13:41:01
I know AES Op ...........have their fair share of former officers.


We do not.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: malamudagain on June 29, 2011, 21:09:43
Thanks take2 and especially Guy for your honesty regarding your reasons going to NCM. 
And also thanks for the other tips too.  Very insightful. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: davidc89 on August 08, 2011, 04:09:16
Hey all,

I just had a read through everything and just have a few questions.

I am at UVic (graduating in December), and started off in June 2007 in a Sigs O spot. Long story short, calculus and I did not agree and I changed degrees from Computer Science to a double-minor in Computer Science and History, which made me incompatible with Sigs. I've done BMOQ so that's out of the way, and needless to say, I am in the process of a COR. My grades are not stellar, but I am a qualified glider pilot and about 25 hours into a private pilot's license so I do have a decent aviation background, and on top of that, I had a brief look over my CFAT and it looked like I scored in the 93rd percentile. Basically the only reason I did not get AEC (or even a chance to go to Aircrew Selection) in '07 was my V4 medical category. I have since undergone a LASIK procedure and was cleared with a medical category 111225 (which I gather is about as high as I can go without an aircrew medical)

First off, I have my interview on Wednesday morning (August 10) with a BPSO and would like to know first off if there are a few spots left for internal transfer (I do not have DIN access), and secondly what the chances of a COR giving me the option of AEC based on current availability?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated,

Cheers,

David
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Globemaster77 on February 26, 2012, 01:16:03
Noticed you said 60th percentile on CFAT, where as pilot was 38th?
Can anyone explain this "percentile" to me? Just curious about how good you need to do on the CFAT to qualify as AEC
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 02:06:18
Noticed you said 60th percentile on CFAT, where as pilot was 38th?
Can anyone explain this "percentile" to me? Just curious about how good you need to do on the CFAT to qualify as AEC

I've been told that since the new AEC selection in Trenton is in effect that the CFAT scores are not looked at the same as they used to be.
Before AEC was only judged by CFAT score and now they have this selection.  When I was at the AEC selection one person had to retake their CFAT.

Also the scores mean nothing because they're not scored in ways we can understand with the knowledge we have about the tests.  ie getting 80% of the questions right doesn't mean you get 80%.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Globemaster77 on February 26, 2012, 02:21:17
I've been told that since the new AEC selection in Trenton is in effect that the CFAT scores are not looked at the same as they used to be.
Before AEC was only judged by CFAT score and now they have this selection.  When I was at the AEC selection one person had to retake their CFAT.

Also the scores mean nothing because they're not scored in ways we can understand with the knowledge we have about the tests.  ie getting 80% of the questions right doesn't mean you get 80%.

So it's not soley on CFAT? That's good to hear, but I'm still confused about this "Percentile".
If I'm right, 60percentile means I did better than 60% of the people who took the test, relatively speaking? So I would be the top 40% marks? I'm just worried about the English part, heard alot of people guess because half of them are ridiculously difficult words. Which I don't understand because I though most of CFAT was based on the grade 10 level. Not too worried about math/spatial though. Thanks in advance. And can I PM u for a few questions relating to AEC?

PS. Can you explain this "new" selection? I though trenton Was ASC?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 03:40:44
Traditionally the score for AEC on the CFAT was the highest standard.  ie if you qualify for AEC you qualify for every other trade.  There were/are also massive training failures (I have heard anywhere from 50-80%).  The testing at Trenton is meant to hopefully cut down the level of training failure by measuring aptitude for things that are important to the AEC trade.

I have been told absolutely nothing about my CFAT score other than that I did "above average" whether that is above the average of ROTP applicants, AEC specific applicants, applicants that are 183cm tall, or everyone who has ever written the CFAT I have no idea. 

Your CFAT score directly contributes to your merit list score.  Do as well as you can do and that's all you can do.  You know how many questions there will be and the time limit given.  Spend time studying instead of worrying how well you have to do.  It's not pass/fail (well you can fail) but there is no such thing as just a pass, to repeat myself, your CFAT score directly affects your merit list score.

AEC aircrew selection takes place at the ASC (aircrew selection centre) in Trenton.
CAPSS (Canadian automated pilot selection system), the simulator for pilots, also takes place at the ASC in Trenton.

Feel free to PM me any questions, or post them either way is good.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Globemaster77 on February 26, 2012, 05:04:44
Lol, how painful was the english part? Most people say that's the killer, words they never heard of.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 13:47:37
Honestly I don't remember, I wrote it in September.  I couldn't tell you one word that was on it even if I wanted to.  I studied hard for the math part and I do remember making it through the English section without too much trouble, but really just looking forward to destroying the math part.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Globemaster77 on February 26, 2012, 15:09:54
Honestly I don't remember, I wrote it in September.  I couldn't tell you one word that was on it even if I wanted to.  I studied hard for the math part and I do remember making it through the English section without too much trouble, but really just looking forward to destroying the math part.

lol, let me reword it. Were you good at English? Obviously you are fluent, but like school wise.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Melbatoast on February 26, 2012, 15:11:28

I have been told absolutely nothing about my CFAT score other than that I did "above average" whether that is above the average of ROTP applicants, AEC specific applicants, applicants that are 183cm tall, or everyone who has ever written the CFAT I have no idea. 


"Above average" means your potential for achievement, based on your CFAT score, compared to the general officer population's CFAT scores (and presumably their later career achievement compared to their CFATs).  The best possible categorization is "superior," which I believe is the next step up.

I don't know what constitutes achievement for the CF, though.  Successfully completing training? Fast promotion? Who knows.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 15:58:50
lol, let me reword it. Were you good at English? Obviously you are fluent, but like school wise.

What do you consider good? I got B's in English throughout high school and improved and got an A in grade 12.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 16:00:18
"Above average" means your potential for achievement, based on your CFAT score, compared to the general officer population's CFAT scores (and presumably their later career achievement compared to their CFATs).  The best possible categorization is "superior," which I believe is the next step up.

I don't know what constitutes achievement for the CF, though.  Successfully completing training? Fast promotion? Who knows.

Thanks for the definitive answer, I didn't know those existed in regards to recruiting  ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Globemaster77 on February 26, 2012, 16:01:15
What do you consider good? I got B's in English throughout high school and improved and got an A in grade 12.

Well obviously an A is good, I'm in grade 11 and got 86 A.
Then I guess you can't really study for the english part, I mean you can't just read a dictionary.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: LOLslamball on February 26, 2012, 16:16:03
Well obviously an A is good, I'm in grade 11 and got 86 A.
Then I guess you can't really study for the english part, I mean you can't just read a dictionary.

For me I thought it would be most time effective to practice math and spatial problems.  Like I said it tells you how many questions are on each section and how long you have for each.  How you study is up to you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KRJB on March 14, 2012, 20:42:10
I'm currently in my first year at RMC, accepted as an AEC. I'm really looking into heading towards the Air Weapons stream, however, previously it was mentioned that it might be closed for a while because of the demand for it. This post dated back a couple years, so I was wondering if there was any update on IFR, VFR, and WPNS recruitment? Are they currently still all open? Are the majority of upcoming AEC's being put into ATC, or do most people who want Weapons get into it?

Thank You!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on March 16, 2012, 11:48:18
I'm currently in my first year at RMC, accepted as an AEC. I'm really looking into heading towards the Air Weapons stream, however, previously it was mentioned that it might be closed for a while because of the demand for it. This post dated back a couple years, so I was wondering if there was any update on IFR, VFR, and WPNS recruitment? Are they currently still all open? Are the majority of upcoming AEC's being put into ATC, or do most people who want Weapons get into it?

Thank You!

You generally won't be slotted for VFR/IFR/Wpns until after you graduate from RMC, which for you is 4 years from now. Lots can change in 4 years, and plenty has changed in the trade in 4 years. You're best off engaging your CoC once you're finished RMC.

When I was an AEC, generally people were streamed according to their preferences. The streams don't "open" or "close", just some courses have a longer backlog than others. That said, they can just as easily order you into VFR or IFR despite your Wpns preference.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: xbowhntr on March 18, 2012, 22:53:59
The rumour going around our office is that the "core" phase will be reimplemented as part of the training system for AEC. This system sees students partake in a few weeks of AEC training encompassing all three streams. At the end of the phase, you submit your stream selection but your placement is dependant on a number of factors including your strengths and weaknesses through out the phase.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Grando on March 22, 2012, 15:54:06
A pre-course 'common' phase is more than a rumour. 

The students will be loaded on their particular stream (IFR/VFR/WPNS) as per the norm now, and the 3 week all-encompassing AEC training will just be added before each individual course.  Their aptitude within the common phase will not affect the stream they have chosen and been accepted for.

The new common phase is being initiated to supplement (and perhaps replace) the oft-noted substandard DL portion of AEC training.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on March 23, 2012, 10:43:35
Without that oft-noted substandard DL portion there would likely be no AEC training at all as the occupation was on the verge of collapse not so long ago. Core as DL was a means to end... ramping up graduate production. There was always the understanding we could return to in-house Core when the circumstances allowed. However, at 3-weeks it is still not the Core of old because the good parts of Core (ostensibly the simulations) were moved to their respective stream training.

With this said I am still of the opinion selection testing will be as much or more of a benefit than any Core program to either the individual or the occupation.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: new_zoomie on April 19, 2012, 20:15:47
Aerospaced_out

Sir,

Thanks for all of the good info. I have just completed an OT from MARS (Shipborne Air Control background) and am trying to find out a few different things. I have only just received my Change of Occupation msg, and am trying to gather more information on stream selection, and what I can do to prepare myself for my coursing in Cornwall.

Any suggestions would be welcome, specifically with respect to preparation for the academic phase. Also, if you could point me in the direction of some information about how stream selection works (I'm leaning heavily towards weapons at this point) and any information about career progression (e.g. DP1, DP2, when I should expect to be doing what courses), that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance. If you would prefer to have this conversation offline, I can make my DWAN information available.

Cheers
nz
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on April 20, 2012, 10:58:20
Just remember that while the academics are challenging at CFSACO they are not rocket science. The fact that you meet the CFAT criteria is fairly good indication that you will not have issues with what could arguably called grade 11/12 level stuff. Its how you apply that stuff that is the usual determinant of course success.

Your background will put you in good stead. MARS officers, particularly those that have been watch officer qualified, seem to do well as AECs. Moreover the Shipborne Air Control will undoubtedly have many of the similar core concepts and types of academics.

Stream selection really is just a function of your choice and what we need at the time when your name comes around.

As to PD, I am overseas right now and a bit disconnected from what is en vogue for AEC getting the DP modules done. Hopefully one of the folks here can chime in and provide better info than I can.

Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on May 23, 2012, 22:27:35
Ref. PD, the current DP2 for the RCAF is the AFOD (Air Force Officer Development) program (and the OPME program).  It currently comprises of 3 distance learning 'blocks' (Blocks 2-4), with a final residential block (block 5) still under development.  The 3 DL blocks are all conducted online on DNDLearn, with all readings & tests available through it (although Block 2 has some 'deliverables' that must be signed off by your supervisor).  You can find the info to sign up for them on the CFSAS website.

In the meantime, if you haven't spoken to them already, you should have 2 AECs (weapons background) on the coast serving as Maritime Fighter Controllers with the Navy.

Feel free to PM me if you want any additional info!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: xbowhntr on June 04, 2012, 01:29:26
Just finished up in Cornwall completing the IFR course and have been qualified for a couple months. If you have any pre-course questions about what to expect, daily routine, how to make the most of your OJT etc., feel free to ask away!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on June 12, 2012, 05:42:37
Congrats... was it as scary as you thought it would be?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: xbowhntr on June 22, 2012, 00:02:37
The course was challenging but went pretty smoothly. Unit checkout wasn't as stressful as I expected, but with that said you will probably be able to guess where I am posted :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DaHonga on July 07, 2012, 02:54:57
When's the next course I wonder for IFR? My friend is still awaiting his course loading message and it should have been some time early July...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on July 07, 2012, 09:25:39
When's the next course I wonder for IFR? My friend is still awaiting his course loading message and it should have been some time early July...

7 Aug - 20 Dec 2012
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: secondchance on September 02, 2012, 16:15:20
is there any chance to apply for AEC for me? My BAC in electronics and IT background ? I am really interested in Air Forces.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on September 03, 2012, 05:59:41
Your background is fine what is important at this point is whether the occupation is open to external applicants. Just drop in or call a recruiting office.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MeatheadMick on September 03, 2012, 18:25:26
My old man is an AEC. He CFR'd in the early 90's to AWC, and had to get his ATC cross-training through Cornwall. I used to be very interested in AEC, and Dad said it was one of the hardest, academically speaking, trades to get into. He had many failures off his course, and the bare minimum pass standard was anywhere from 80-90% on a test.

MP was hard enough, with a minimum pass of 75%, I don't personally think I could achieve the above mentioned standard. I may have been hitting high 90's/100's on MP testing, but it was also something I went to school for to learn.

Obviously the trade has changed a lot in almost 20 years (My dad will definitely shudder when I mention that number to him), however from his experience, the trade itself has not.  It can be a very high stress trade, especially at the Jr Officer level. It can be a very rewarding career, (as any in the Forces can be) but it is definitely something you must want. If you don't want it, don't try out for it.

I apologize that I couldn't provide any more recent info in regards to the training process.

And my mistake, dad just reminded me when he went from Cpl to OCdt it was 22 years ago :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: secondchance on September 04, 2012, 20:02:53
Your background is fine what is important at this point is whether the occupation is open to external applicants. Just drop in or call a recruiting office.
Thanks. I started to think about AERE - much real then....
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dad_r22r on October 04, 2012, 14:14:06
Hi,

I am presently transferring AEC by the CEOTP program. I was wondering if anyone knew the next start date of the course in Cornall ?

Tks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DaHonga on October 11, 2012, 16:15:31
Hi,

I am presently transferring AEC by the CEOTP program. I was wondering if anyone knew the next start date of the course in Cornall ?

Tks

Depending on which stream you choose there are two to three courses per year.
Weapons is either January to May or August to December.

You'll probably have to wait a year or two before you get on course.
Plus you'll have to do your commond Distance Learning course as well but I've heard they've been working to do an in class common phase for AEC.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: grandin105 on November 06, 2012, 16:45:26
Hi,

I suppose this is more of a Phase 3 question rather than OJT, but could someone tell me the pass rate for AEC training?

I hear all kinds of conflicting stories.

Thanks,

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on November 21, 2012, 05:59:53
While AEC selection testing is now implimented most of those processed through that system are still in university (ROTP intake). As such recent CFSACO AEC grad levels persist at the 50% rate.

As a side note the training backlog is quickly disappearing. The second half of 2013 should see significant reductions in the time between going on OJT and going on course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on November 24, 2012, 03:05:58
Plus you'll have to do your commond Distance Learning course as well but I've heard they've been working to do an in class common phase for AEC.

The DL is now gone and replaced by the Common Phase.  The current VFR course was the first course to use it.  I believe it's 2 weeks tacked on before beginning your stream training.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on November 25, 2012, 21:08:17
The DL is now gone and replaced by the Common Phase.  The current VFR course was the first course to use it.  I believe it's 2 weeks tacked on before beginning your stream training.

The more things change...
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on November 27, 2012, 07:25:55
The more things change...

Indeed, but the occupation has gone from 20% below PML to achieving PML in less than 3 years. This was enabled by moving "common" to DL and adding more "core" to CFSACO.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on November 28, 2012, 01:24:52
Indeed, but the occupation has gone from 20% below PML to achieving PML in less than 3 years.

Really?  Where are they all?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Aerospaced_out on November 28, 2012, 08:10:03
Really?  Where are they all?

Rob, they are UCO, according to the CM brief. Unfortunately PML does not equal TES, which is still affecting some ATC units.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dad_r22r on January 14, 2013, 16:38:54
Hi,

I am waiting for an approval to change trade from Infantry to AEC. A few questions that I can't find the answers ;

Once your qualification is done in Cornwall, what are the usual posting afterward ?
From the last course, was everybody sent to the same location ?
Talking about courses, how many courses runs every year ?

Thank you
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on January 14, 2013, 20:08:19
Once your qualification is done in Cornwall, what are the usual posting afterward ?
For the ATC side of the house, you'll have Comox, Cold Lake, Moose Jaw, Trenton, Bagotville, and Greenwood.
Weapons, it's only one initial posting: North Bay.

Quote
From the last course, was everybody sent to the same location ?
ATC Graduates are dispersed based on the needs of the units. Some bases may have no positions available, thus no one is likely to be posted there.
Weapons Graduates all go to North Bay.

Quote
Talking about courses, how many courses runs every year ?
This year, there are 2 Weapons Courses, 2 IFR Courses, and 3 VFR Courses.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: formerguard on January 19, 2013, 12:31:11
Cornwall/CFSACO only provides the initial qualification - you still need to undergo operational (live) training at an OTU.  On the ATC side (post-Cornwall), you're posted to a unit where you undergo checkout, so all those units mentioned above function as OTU's.  Once you 'check out', you remain at that unit for the duration of your posting.

On the Weapons side, the OTU (51 Sqn) is in North Bay.  All Weapons folks will proceed to North Bay after Cornwall to complete operational training and then are posted to a unit.  Some do indeed stay in North Bay (at 21 Sqn, which is the operational squadron), but others may be posted to other weapons units based on needs of the occupation.  There are initial postings to radar squadrons in Cold Lake or Bagotville, Air Defense sectors in the US, or AWACS in Tinker.  All that to say that while, if weapons, you will go through North Bay, you're not necessarily going to be posted there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dad_r22r on January 21, 2013, 13:31:30
Thank you Guy_Incognito and Formerguard for your anwers. As you mention, there is different path after the basic formation, who decide wich branch you will end up ? I did some research on all three and so far, all of them seems have positive sides. From what I have read, the weapons seems to have more choice of posting then the other two, is that right ? I don't mind North Bay, but let's say that it is not on my top 3 posting...

Tks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: agc on January 21, 2013, 14:00:14
I believe 2 Div/A3 AF Trg makes the decision.  When I got my transfer, my boss was in touch with them and he submitted my stream preference for me.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KRJB on February 23, 2013, 21:41:45
So I've been looking at going into Maritime Fighter Control (MFC), however, I'm having some trouble finding much, if any, information about it. As far as I understand, it's not a first tour posting and it follows an Air Weapons stream.

As for getting there, I believe I input a preference during my summer of OJT (between 3rd and 4th year of ROTP) to follow the Air Weapons stream. After graduation, assuming I get my preference, I will do another summer of OJT until a course open up. Then I do the Air Weapons course of 13 weeks, which I understand now has the common phase(or the DL), in Cornwall, then Phase 4 at North Bay(3-4 months?)

My question is, what can I do afterwards to get into MFC? AFAIK, I get a posting to either North Bay, Cold Lake, Bagotville or OUTCAN. But where/how long/what is incorporated into the Maritime Fighter Control course? When could I apply for it? What would be the best posting after finishing the Air Weapons course to get into the Maritime Fighter Control program?

I've tried searching the forums about this, but very little information came up. Even the CF Aerospace Control World website and forces.gc.ca has minimal information on it. Also correct me if I'm wrong about the Air Weapons stream.

Thanks in advance for any information posted!  :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: airmich on February 25, 2013, 04:03:49
You are correct in that it is through the Weapons stream and that you will not get it right off.  ALso, except under rare circumstances, the course will only be offered once you are a Capt.

You can get to the course from any of the Weapons stream postings, although being at 42 Radar (Cold Lake) will give you more experience beforehand.  That being said, people have been loaded on the course from all locations in and outside of Canada.

For now, concentrate on finishing school and getting through your Weapons course both in-house and in North Bay.  Once that is all done and you are at your first posting, mention your interest in MFC so that not only do your supervisors know what your goal is, but so that they can help you with your plans to acheive it.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on February 25, 2013, 18:08:34
Hey guys, I'm looking for some feedback on people working in either trade who have good knowledge about both preferrably. I'm kind of stoked right now- I have the choice of either making my 1st choice AEC or ACSO. I have passed the tests for both, and have a good chance of getting either offer.
I understand that both trades have their pros and cons, that both trades are rewarding and challenging in their own way. I would just like some feedback from someone who has done at least a few years as an AEC. Let me know what you like/dislike about it, how do you feel they respect your posting choices, how you feel you are being treated in general and how much appreciation do you and others have for your work. And, most importantly, would you recommend your line of work over ACSO.

Here's a bit about me; I like adventure, but I also look forward to a safe, rewarding job with a fair amount of room for promotion, OUTCAN postings, and HQ/command center work (though not necessarily flying desk all day).

Thanks in advance for all feedback, it's much appreciated  :salute:
 :cdn:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: _Barca on February 25, 2013, 18:19:26
I'm kind of stoked right now- I have the choice of either making my 1st choice AEC or ACSO. I have passed the tests for both, and have a good chance of getting either offer.

Unfortunately, I don't  think you will have the choice when you get the call that you've been selected for either of your choices. The order of the trades on your application doesn't matter, you are suppose to be willing to do all of them. I thought the same thing, that I could be pick for both trades I applied then choose between them what I wanted the most, but my recruiter told me that once you are selected for a trade, your name is removed from the merit list for the other trades you applied.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on February 25, 2013, 18:34:17
Thank you for your reply Hannibal,
I guess that makes my question completely irrelevant than :P  I'll keep AEC as my first choice and see where things go from there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on February 25, 2013, 18:49:16
(though not necessarily flying desk all day).
Albeit a common phrase used around the water cooler - please note that AEC's do not fly (with the exception of AWACs).  If you are looking to get out and fly you really only have ACSO as a choice.

If you choose AEC, you can expect North Bay, Cold Lake and Bagotville to be the primary locations where you will spend your career.  If you escape weapons and get into the ATC environment you will get to also enjoy Comox, Moose Jaw, Trenton and Greenwood.  The Career Manager will respect your choice for location, as long as it is the one he needs to you fill.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on February 25, 2013, 19:04:20
Thanks for the input Zoomie.
Yeah, posting options for WPNS aren't all that great. I can't stand anything below -10c so I'm pretty sure I'll opt for ATC if the choice presents itself. If anything, to get an OUTCAN posting some place warm! (Repeat after me: A man is allowed to dream.  A man is allowed to dream.)   :blotto:
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Dimsum on February 25, 2013, 20:02:19
However, if you want OUTCAN postings, Weapons is the way to go.  Seattle, New York (upstate, not NYC), Anchorage AK, AWACS in AK and OK, Germany when we had the AWACS positions there....etc.  From my Weapons friends, they manage to spend a fair bit OUTCAN.  Note that none of those are particularly warm places, if that's what you're after (maybe Seattle.)

That's not to say that ACSOs don't get OUTCAN, just not as frequently as AEC-Weapons.  The rest still stands though.

And another (pedantic) point:  AEC and ACSO aren't AF support, they're AF operations trades along with Pilot. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Air4ce on February 25, 2013, 23:40:30
Hi Noctis,

I've been an Air Traffic Controller for 23 years now.  I have not had any operational deployments.  However I have had the opportunity to go into the "field" on exercise on a number of occasions.  Even lived in a couple of tents!  I've work both as a VFR and an IFR controller plus one "out of trade" tour.  I do believe I have had a rewarding career.  I've been able to do somethings I wasn't expecting and I have been let down in other areas.  If you choose AEC I do think you can have as rewarding a career as you make it.  Probably the same for ACSO.

Now for my advice:  If you are looking for adventure; if you are looking for the best chance of promotion; then your choices should be ACSO,  AEC - Air Weapons Control then AEC - Air Traffic Control in that order.  There are opportunities for adventure and promotion in any of these choices.  But if you want to go places and do things, then it's ACSO.  If you want OUTCAN postings, then it's Air Weapons.  I personally know many Weapons Controllers that have had three or more OUTCAN postings.  However, if you are looking for a real challenge, then you have to choose Air Traffic Control.  ATC may not be physically demanding but I doubt there is a more mentally demanding trade in the Air Force. Then again, I've only ever been an Air Traffic Controller, so I may be a little bit biased. 

Hey, and if ATC doesn't work out for you, you can always go Weapons or ACSO then ;D

Good luck in what ever direction your future brings you/

Air4ce
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on February 26, 2013, 09:07:28
Thank you very much Air4ce, this is exactly the kind of info I was looking for!
It's hard to get a glimpse of what really happens within a trade from civvy street, thanks for shedding a bit of light for me. I feel more strongly for ACSO or WPNS than ATC after reading your post, then again I am young and foolish  ::)
MPs inbound.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on February 26, 2013, 12:31:43
As an AEC Weapons Controller posting from the desert - there is certainly some adventures to be had!  While still relatively green (4 years in) I have been more than impressed with the breadth of opportunities within the AEC realm. NORAD, Tactical Fighter Control, Maritime Fighter Control, AWACS, Space Ops, TACP, IFR, VFR... and probably several more that I have missed.

Working with the Tactical Control Radar Sqns (42 Rdr / 12 ER) you get tremendous opportunity to travel on TD either as a small attachment or as a full Squadron. In recent years the TCRs have done INCAN deployments to both the Olympics and the G20 Summit, and there's rumours abound of some OUTCAN Sqn deployments. Deployment opportunities are also very regular; my home unit generally has 1 or 2 people overseas.

I have very little experience with the ACSO trade so I can't make any comparisons, but for what it's worth the AEC world is a tough but invigorating field.


Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on February 26, 2013, 14:20:15
Thanks Dy3r, great input! Weapons Controller would be more my kind of ballpark. You're in the desert, that sounds really awesome! Are you operating from a tactical radar sqn? Those look pretty neat :P
MPs inbound
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KRJB on February 27, 2013, 10:39:11
Does anybody know, for ROTP students, if we can do a summer OJT at a Navy Base, specifically CFB Esquimalt, to see how the MFC operate? Or are they posted out of 443 in Pat Bay?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: KRJB on February 27, 2013, 10:47:49
Awesome.
Thanks for the info. airmich! Much appreciated! :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on March 01, 2013, 18:55:44
Noctis - My home unit is 42 Radar Sqn. While overseas I'm attached to a coalition unit working with the USAF, RAF and RAAF. My highly biased opinion is that TCR's are the way to go ;D
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on March 01, 2013, 23:11:54
Noctis - My home unit is 42 Radar Sqn. While overseas I'm attached to a coalition unit working with the USAF, RAF and RAAF. My highly biased opinion is that TCR's are the way to go ;D

Yeah, joint operations definitely sounds like a blast! How did you get that posting? Are you a air weapons controller?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on March 02, 2013, 00:27:21
As an AEC Weapons Controller posting from the desert...

 ;)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Noctis on March 02, 2013, 13:22:35
My bad. Thanks guys for your input, definitely food for thought  :) I'm pretty excited to get the call in April!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Piper0507 on March 03, 2013, 22:20:05
How do we know where we will be in the summer?
Do they tell us where we are going?
And I wonder if this is the same for Aerospace Engineering Officer.

Thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on March 05, 2013, 20:34:09
How do we know where we will be in the summer?
Do they tell us where we are going?
And I wonder if this is the same for Aerospace Engineering Officer.

Thanks

Piper - Your post doesn't provide nearly enough background information to give you an informative answer. Where who will be? AEC personnel? AEC as a trade? The CF? And if what is the same as AERE?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Piper0507 on March 09, 2013, 22:34:52
From what I researched, I know that if I get the offer for Aerospace Engineering Officer,
I will either go to RMC or another civilian university to get a university degree.
But after that I get the degree, I am not sure where i will get employed.
Can anyone give me places where I can get employed?
I have my interview soon and I need to say where I might get employed, but it's hard to find that information.
I know that I could get employed in Ottawa and Winnipeg, but I couldn't get a specific place.

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on March 10, 2013, 03:07:34
Piper - This thread is about Aerospace Control Officers. I doubt you'll find that info here - recommend you find an AERE thread or start one.  The search function might help.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dad_r22r on May 08, 2013, 14:04:22
Hi again,

I just received my VOT( voluntary transfer offer ) I will leave the R22R on the 17th of July to report to the nearest BTL. I am leaving tomorrow for one month in Wainwright for my last excercise with the infantry... By the way , I know that I should receive my message while in Alberta but does anyone knows where is the nearest BTL from Valcartier, because my orderly  room could not help me with that !

Thank you.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on May 08, 2013, 23:36:26
Once your message arrives, it will have more explicit instructions for you. A BTL is basically an admin section that untrained personnel fall under, so there should be one at Valcartier. Once you're posted there, they should try to find you employment related to your new trade, which in your case would be at 430 Sqn ATC. BTL sections typically fall under Base/Wing Admin sections, so that might be a good place to start looking.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: siuto on May 09, 2013, 02:16:41
Hi,
I just recieved an email from the recruitment centre notifying me that I have to attend a course in Trenton before they will put me on the merit list for AEC. It's a one-day course and that's all I know. Does anyone know what the course is about and what should I expect? Thanks!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Duckman54 on June 07, 2013, 20:52:13
Yah, just did that one during my week for Aircrew Selection. They put all 14 of us Pilot applicants thru the AEC testing as well.

Not much anyone here can tell you. As you can imagine, we are asked NOT to divulge anything.  I can honestly tell you that digging for specifics about the testing on here wouldn't help you anyways!  Kinda like trying to study for a blood-test! 

They're looking for inherent skills within you, NOT what you've studied over the past month.  They are not testing how well you can fly planes or direct traffic. They've carefully developed or chosen specific tests to look for very specific aptitudes, to predict how well you COULD BE TRAINED to do those tasks.

Don't sweat!  Enjoy the trip... They're paying for it, right?  Be well rested when you arrive, dress sharp, go in confident. It's challenging but fun!

'G.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: dad_r22r on June 19, 2013, 22:11:01
Just got back for Wainwright and I got a message from my orderly room . OJT will be at the 430 Squadron and my course will be from the 17th of Sept 'til 19 of Dec. I am really looking forward to be on the course ! Thank you again Incognito for all your comments on that post.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: ATCO on July 02, 2013, 07:30:07
dad_r22r, I would suggest that you ask for some contact training/OJT time in a tower like Bagotville. 430 Sqn is a an ok spot but you would benefit more from seeing a fighter base before your course.

Regards,

ATCO
AEC instructor in Cornwall 2007-2009
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PeterL on July 27, 2013, 00:47:43
Only somewhat related to AEC; but this seems to be one of the more active threads.

I was recently accepted for AC Op, I've got approx. 3 years of university completed. If I wanted to move up to the AEC, are there any programs in place within the CF that would assist in the training to AEC? Would a former AC Op be favoured for AEC upon completion of a bachelor's degree? And are these only available upon completion of my initial 5-year contracting?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Unknown21 on August 21, 2013, 12:18:55
Is it just me or is it really hard to find information on the ACSO? I know the name changed but I have been searching around with little luck on how the career progresses and realistic day in the life of's ect.  Any input or links to help?

Also, I have thought about the AEC but don't want to be stuck in a tower, do you always have to do that before getting to specialize in something else? Am I just not knowledgeable enough and assume I will be in a basement or tower for the majority of the trade?

Thanks guys
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on August 21, 2013, 12:38:10
Is it just me or is it really hard to find information on the ACSO? I know the name changed but I have been searching around with little luck on how the career progresses and realistic day in the life of's ect.  Any input or links to help?

Try this, it may be a bit out of date though  ---->  http://www.frontline-canada.com/Defence/index_archives.php?page=1670

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: MrDy3r on November 18, 2013, 11:47:16
Is it just me or is it really hard to find information on the ACSO? I know the name changed but I have been searching around with little luck on how the career progresses and realistic day in the life of's ect.  Any input or links to help?

Also, I have thought about the AEC but don't want to be stuck in a tower, do you always have to do that before getting to specialize in something else? Am I just not knowledgeable enough and assume I will be in a basement or tower for the majority of the trade?

Thanks guys

A bit late to respond so I hope this is still useful for you.  As background I am a currently serving AEC Weapons Controller on my second operational tour.

AEC as a trade is really what you make of it; the opportunities are endless but some people do indeed spend their whole career "in a basement" per say. The primary roles for AEC are ATC Tower (VFR), ATC Terminal (IFR) and Air Weapons Control. The only one of these options that has windows is Tower. That said, the most interesting stuff happens in places without windows.

As a weapons controller I've had the opportunity to control many Large Force Engagement exercises as well as deploy to control military aircraft over Afghanistan. It really is exciting and interesting to be the guy with global situational awareness ensuring that the mission is accomplished both safely and expeditiously. We are also able to serve on the Airborne Weapons and Control Systems; no windows at 30k feet! On my second tour I'm now the Officer In Charge (OIC) of an Operations Centre, which keeps me in the thick of all Wing/NORAD operations and has great leadership value.

Outside of our primary roles there's an abundance of other opportunities. A few key ones that come to mind is our ever expanding role in Space Operations (again, no windows), and as Forward Air Controllers / Tactical Air Control Party, and as Maritime Fighter Controllers.  As a FAC/TACP you can work with the Army both on field exercises, calling in airstrikes, and at the Air Operations Center facilitating the Air to Ground war. I am not an expert in these areas, but I hope it gives you an idea at least.

Long story short: windows are for ninnies.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on May 31, 2014, 11:58:21
Good day ,
I am from Winnipeg MB and have plans of going to become an Aerospace Control Officer. I am currently in Res MP, of which I am going to discharge and reenlist as I am a Pte with the MPs. If anyone has had experiences or knows about this position please fill me in.Any info would.be greatly appreciated. I really like Aviation and would like to make a career out of it.
I am married with a 19  old month son own a home with mortgage. My plan would be to have my family move to Cornwall ONT with me for the duration of my13 weeks of training after basic officer course in Quebec. Will the force pay for my move?
Second Qn: how long is the contract for this position?
3) Which are the bases will I be deployed to usually and the length I assume will depend on the nature of the operation itself.
4) Can my family come with me if possible if I get deployed such as US  or other non-war zones?
5)What if I failed the Nav Canada certificate test and are they difficult to pass?

I would say I am a pretty hard working person and I would put in a lot of effort into doing what I like. I dont expect myself to fail but just i case because I have my family to think about.
Thank you very much for your time, any input would be awesome:)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on May 31, 2014, 13:27:25
Good day ,
I am from Winnipeg MB and have plans of going to become an Aerospace Control Officer. I am currently in Res MP, of which I am going to discharge and reenlist as I am a Pte with the MPs. If anyone has had experiences or knows about this position please fill me in.Any info would.be greatly appreciated. I really like Aviation and would like to make a career out of it.
I am married with a 19  old month son own a home with mortgage. My plan would be to have my family move to Cornwall ONT with me for the duration of my13 weeks of training after basic officer course in Quebec. Will the force pay for my move?
Second Qn: how long is the contract for this position?
3) Which are the bases will I be deployed to usually and the length I assume will depend on the nature of the operation itself.
4) Can my family come with me if possible if I get deployed such as US  or other non-war zones?
5)What if I failed the Nav Canada certificate test and are they difficult to pass?

I would say I am a pretty hard working person and I would put in a lot of effort into doing what I like. I dont expect myself to fail but just i case because I have my family to think about.
Thank you very much for your time, any input would be awesome:)

First off, is you are currently in the Reserve Force and are releasing for the purpose of submitting an application for the Regular Force, you may encounter some serious roadblocks.  My first question would be "Have you reached OFP for Res MP? (ie; are you QL3 occupation qualified?).  If you have not reached the QL 3 level and release from the Reserves, you cannot be processed by a CFRC for a minimum of 365 days after the date of your release and then after that waiting period, you will need to jump through allot of hoops even to be considered, so you could be in for a very long wait.  If you are already QL3 qualified and release from the Reserves, then you may very well also be subject to a minimum of a 6 month waiting period before you can be processed for Regular Force.  The current policies are under review but will come into effect very shortly based on what I have mentioned above.

To answer the questions you have asked below, here goes......

1.  No the CF will NOT pay for that.  On top of that, after your BMOQ is completed, you will NOT be posted to CFSACO Cornwall for your training but rather you will be posted somewhere on OJT and even then the CF will not pay to relocate your family.  You are only entitled to relocation benefits, once you are occupation qualified and posted for first time employment.
2.  Depends on the entry plan chosen.  If you are looking at DEO AEC, then I believe the initial contract is probably "9 years" but I would have to reconfirm that
3.  You can be posted to any CF Base where aircraft are stationed and or a requirement for AEC Officers exist (ie; North Bay or in the US)
4.  Depending on the location and the duration you are assigned there, yes, your family will accompany you.
5.  I'll leave this one for an AEC officer to answer....
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on May 31, 2014, 15:03:21
Hello,
Thank you for the prompt response.
I swore in on Dec 7 2013. I have not attended any of the trainings including BMQ. I originally applied to become an officer for the MPs but a month before I start, the officer position was taken.The recruiting office told me if I want to go in as a NCM and if there is a spot open for an officer ,I can always jump in. Few months later,the officer left , the spot was open,i asked for it but was told that I wil have to take the Platoon commander spot which I dont have experience in. Another officer completed the BMQ after failing it a few times finally passed but wasnt doing anything,not even the platoon commander job. Different Cpl told me different things which made me think that I was being jerked around, hence the plan.On the other hand, I do like to be in the Canadian Military as it will provide me with opportunities to come even after discharge specially in aviation field. I currently work for the federal government but I like to move around, do and see different things and people. I am told that I am an energizer bunny, I constantly find ways to do things and am active in better myself. I think I can wait for the position if that is really what I want instead of doing something I don‘t enjoy, well not anymore.
Worst case scenario if i do fail the Nav test, I just wish I can still stay with the air force and do something else related to aviation. But I hope I dont. I pick this position as an ACO because I think it wil be a job I wont get sick of but full of excitement and seeing the world.
So in your opionion, I should just do a Component transfer?And while that is taking place, do i just stop doing the Res postition?   Forgive me for I do not know the procedure.
Again thank you.for your time and patience.
Regards
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on May 31, 2014, 15:33:36
Hello,
Thank you for the prompt response.
I swore in on Dec 7 2013. I have not attended any of the trainings including BMQ. I originally applied to become an officer for the MPs but a month before I start, the officer position was taken.The recruiting office told me if I want to go in as a NCM and if there is a spot open for an officer ,I can always jump in. Few months later,the officer left , the spot was open,i asked for it but was told that I wil have to take the Platoon commander spot which I dont have experience in. Another officer completed the BMQ after failing it a few times finally passed but wasnt doing anything,not even the platoon commander job. Different Cpl told me different things which made me think that I was being jerked around, hence the plan.On the other hand, I do like to be in the Canadian Military as it will provide me with opportunities to come even after discharge specially in aviation field. I currently work for the federal government but I like to move around, do and see different things and people. I am told that I am an energizer bunny, I constantly find ways to do things and am active in better myself. I think I can wait for the position if that is really what I want instead of doing something I don‘t enjoy, well not anymore.
Worst case scenario if i do fail the Nav test, I just wish I can still stay with the air force and do something else related to aviation. But I hope I dont. I pick this position as an ACO because I think it wil be a job I wont get sick of but full of excitement and seeing the world.
So in your opionion, I should just do a Component transfer?And while that is taking place, do i just stop doing the Res postition?   Forgive me for I do not know the procedure.
Again thank you.for your time and patience.
Regards

If you are or were planning on being an Officer, then I hope it is safe to assume that you already have an undergrad degree.  Given your fairly recent enrolment date and the fact that you have not even done your BMQ, you are not in the greatest of positions at the present time, so your only option at the moment, would be to apply for a CT to the Reg F as an AEC Officer if that is what you truly want.

Releasing prior to BMQ and or occupation training, is not that great of an idea due to the high probability that you are going to have to wait a minimum of one year to re-apply to the Reg F and the wait time can be longer.  Your probably better off trying to get as much training done as you possibly can (ie; BMQ and occupation trg).

Anyway you look at it based all possible scenario's, because you enrolled in the Reserves and now want to go Regular Force, your going to have to wait and most likely, wait along time (2 years or more).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on May 31, 2014, 15:57:32
Hi there,
Yes i do have a Undergrad degree from University of Manitoba. I also thought about going into graduate degree.
I will heed your advise and speak to my platoon about a CT, and see what they say, at the same time complete my BMQ. I just do not want to do BMQ twice because I have heard that happened to another officer who just left the platoon. I feel more secure doing BMQ if i know where I am going for sure . I just cannot leave my future to unknown unless I do them myself.  I cant afford to waste more time and effort.
If the forces does not pay for relocation I will have to relocate using my current work resources to Ontario which I think will work out better.
I thank you again for your informative input.
Best Regards

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on May 31, 2014, 16:20:14
Hi there,
Yes i do have a Undergrad degree from University of Manitoba. I also thought about going into graduate degree.
I will heed your advise and speak to my platoon about a CT, and see what they say, at the same time complete my BMQ. I just do not want to do BMQ twice because I have heard that happened to another officer who just left the platoon. I feel more secure doing BMQ if i know where I am going for sure . I just cannot leave my future to unknown unless I do them myself.  I cant afford to waste more time and effort.
If the forces does not pay for relocation I will have to relocate using my current work resources to Ontario which I think will work out better.
I thank you again for your informative input.
Best Regards

Make the best of the situation you are in, that will allow you to "gain" the most.  Sometimes people are happy just being in the Reserves and it's a good fit for them.  The Reserves allow for the opportunity to get a "taste" of military life without having to make a full-time commitment.  There are plenty of people out there who have found themselves in a position similar to yours and there are those who have joined the Regular Force, found it just wasn't for them, released but then decided to join the Reserves and are happy with what they have.

You just never know.........
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 01, 2014, 01:10:38
Good day ,
I am from Winnipeg MB and have plans of going to become an Aerospace Control Officer. I am currently in Res MP, of which I am going to discharge and reenlist as I am a Pte with the MPs. If anyone has had experiences or knows about this position please fill me in.Any info would.be greatly appreciated. I really like Aviation and would like to make a career out of it.
I am married with a 19  old month son own a home with mortgage. My plan would be to have my family move to Cornwall ONT with me for the duration of my13 weeks of training after basic officer course in Quebec. Will the force pay for my move?
Second Qn: how long is the contract for this position?
3) Which are the bases will I be deployed to usually and the length I assume will depend on the nature of the operation itself.
4) Can my family come with me if possible if I get deployed such as US  or other non-war zones?
5)What if I failed the Nav Canada certificate test and are they difficult to pass?

I would say I am a pretty hard working person and I would put in a lot of effort into doing what I like. I dont expect myself to fail but just i case because I have my family to think about.
Thank you very much for your time, any input would be awesome:)

DAA answered #1-4 quite well, but #5 doesn't really pertain to the CF at all. AEC nor AC Op have Nav Canada certificates. The CF issues its own licenses to control live aircraft, and they are not directly transferable to Nav Canada, or vice-versa. That said, the CF courses to obtain said licenses are known to be difficult. If you fail the course, you are processed through a Progress Review Board which recommends either Release (if you're a shyte-pump), Recourse (a rare case for AEC), or Cease-Training (most often) where you can choose to remuster to a new trade, or release on your own. Best advice for the courses are to keep a good attitude, try not to stress out, and above all, study hard!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on June 01, 2014, 10:41:37
Thank you Guy Incognito for the info, I was in the Marines as a Cpl  in Asia 10 years ago,I have been to the military and I like the stability and on going training.
I think if I did not make it to the AEC, can I go into Air Combat Systems Officer? I am not planning to fail but its always good to have another back-up . Its really good to know that the CF certificate is not tranferable to Nav cert or vice versa for I  have always thought that the CF AEC is trained by Nav Canada and would automatically obtained a Nav certificate.
With regards to becoming an AEC, as I am currently in the reserve , if I do my BMQ as a Pte with the MPs would it still be transferable if I go to Reg Force as an officer with the Air Fice(I just woud like to confirm) I assume there will be another officer training after that correct? And after which would be OJT for AEC. I am asking this is because  I need to worry about my family  and if they would be left by themselves for a while before I am qualified for the position and  I would be moving to different air base constantly.
Another qn, if I do get deployed to another country E.G. US, does CF personnel need to apply for visa? 
Thank you
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on June 01, 2014, 11:29:42
I have read other threads regarding AEC on training and the OJT or OJE are almost all across Canadafor a duration from 2  to 4 months each is that correct?
Does anyone know how long a  Component Tansfer can and wil take? Does it depends how how fast a clerk processes them or policy related?
Thank you
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 01, 2014, 16:42:45
CFSACO is currently hosted at a Nav Canada owned facility (Nav Centre, formerly Nav Canada Training Institute), but the instruction is 100% CF. Interestingly enough, there's very little Nav Canada ATC Training taking place at the facility these days.

If you are unsuccessful in AEC training, you can remuster into a new trade if you meet the entry standards for that trade, and a position is available. For ACSO, you would need to pass the medical standards, as well as the selection test. Bear in mind, the CAF is quite full right now, so the list of trades might be small. When I was remustering out of AEC, my choice for officer trades was Infantry or MARS, and I had no interest in either.

If you do your BMQ in the PRes, you will still have to do the full BMOQ once you are in the RegF. It might not mean much on paper, but it can help you prepare for what's ahead in BMOQ.

For personnel posted OUTCAN (e.g. to the US), CF personnel are generally issued green passports with a visa. I'm not sure if the member applies for it or if the admin types take care of it, but one way or another, you get one.

OJT/OJE duration before course can vary depending on a number of factors. I'm not sure what the average OJE duration is right now for AEC. 2 to 4 months might be plausible, but it might be upwards of a year.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kazekage on June 02, 2014, 00:02:56
Guy Incognito, thank you for your reply. Now that I know that  I have to kinda redo Basics, I would rather not do BMQ for now due to the fact that I have to take time off from work as PRes and i do have my son to worry about.
My guess for the fact that most ATC training will take place other than Nav can is to cut cost and time, the DL and OJE will probably take place consecutively at a unit.I am hoping it will happen in Winnipeg that way I can still stay with my family for a bit, but its just my guess. Then after move to a assigned unit where my family can move with me. I have a much better understanding of the big picture now so I can integrate my life into it and try to make it work. I will speak to  recruiting and my platoon and proceed from there.
Thank you again!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 02, 2014, 07:56:46
There is no military ATC in Winnipeg.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2014, 09:42:36
If you have not reached the QL 3 level and release from the Reserves, you cannot be processed by a CFRC for a minimum of 365 days after the date of your release and then after that waiting period, you will need to jump through allot of hoops even to be considered, so you could be in for a very long wait.  If you are already QL3 qualified and release from the Reserves, then you may very well also be subject to a minimum of a 6 month waiting period before you can be processed for Regular Force.  The current policies are under review but will come into effect very shortly based on what I have mentioned above.

l
Just for clarity; the timelines you mention above are the current ones in effect now, or are they actually the proposed ones under review that will replace the current ones?

If they are the ones that will supersede current timelines, what are the actual current timelines?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on June 02, 2014, 11:38:34
If you have not reached the QL 3 level and release from the Reserves, you cannot be processed by a CFRC for a minimum of 365 days after the date of your release and then after that waiting period, you will need to jump through allot of hoops even to be considered, so you could be in for a very long wait.  If you are already QL3 qualified and release from the Reserves, then you may very well also be subject to a minimum of a 6 month waiting period before you can be processed for Regular Force.  The current policies are under review but will come into effect very shortly based on what I have mentioned above.

l
Just for clarity; the timelines you mention above are the current ones in effect now, or are they actually the proposed ones under review that will replace the current ones?

If they are the ones that will supersede current timelines, what are the actual current timelines?

Varies from location to location but what I have mentioned are the current "proposals/changes" that they are looking at implementing.  The "1 year" wait for those not reaching OFP is current and will most likely remain at that level.  The only big change being recommended, is a 6 month wait for everybody else.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Eye In The Sky on June 02, 2014, 12:35:18
 ???  Wouldn't this be a CAF (national) policy?  How could it vary from location to location?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Ditch on June 02, 2014, 20:52:05
There is no military ATC in Winnipeg.
Correct - however there is a huge contingent of AECs posted to Winnipeg - they man the CAOC and other similar tasks.  Plenty of opportunities for OJT there.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: DAA on June 02, 2014, 22:08:00
???  Wouldn't this be a CAF (national) policy?  How could it vary from location to location?

It would be a CFRG Policy.  Current directive is non-OFP is a mandatory 1 year wait followed by further approvals after the one year.  4.C. OFP's currently have no waiting period (CANFORGEN and Recruiting Directive on the topic).
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: SupersonicMax on June 02, 2014, 22:35:37
Correct - however there is a huge contingent of AECs posted to Winnipeg - they man the CAOC and other similar tasks.  Plenty of opportunities for OJT there.

I believe their version of the OJT has some training associated with it in which case, 1/2 CAD doesn't really qualify.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: agc on June 02, 2014, 22:47:15
The DL is gone, and there's a new common core done at CFSACO.  While OJE at a Wing or Sqn is preferential, lots of folks end up spending their time at the Div or elsewhere.  I spent 16 months or so waiting while doing my old job in recruiting, but I asked for and got some TD to one of the towers before my course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: reganm on March 16, 2015, 17:08:01
Good day ,
I am from Winnipeg MB and have plans of going to become an Aerospace Control Officer. I am currently in Res MP, of which I am going to discharge and reenlist as I am a Pte with the MPs. If anyone has had experiences or knows about this position please fill me in.Any info would.be greatly appreciated. I really like Aviation and would like to make a career out of it.
I am married with a 19  old month son own a home with mortgage. My plan would be to have my family move to Cornwall ONT with me for the duration of my13 weeks of training after basic officer course in Quebec. Will the force pay for my move?
Second Qn: how long is the contract for this position?
3) Which are the bases will I be deployed to usually and the length I assume will depend on the nature of the operation itself.
4) Can my family come with me if possible if I get deployed such as US  or other non-war zones?
5)What if I failed the Nav Canada certificate test and are they difficult to pass?

I would say I am a pretty hard working person and I would put in a lot of effort into doing what I like. I dont expect myself to fail but just i case because I have my family to think about.
Thank you very much for your time, any input would be awesome:)

Greetings,

I am an AEC and can answer number five. The military trains AEC VFR and IFR controllers under their own license and program. Although Air Traffic Controllers in both the civilian and military side use the same rules (some rules are different for military), the licesnces they issue do not carry over. Thus, If I wanted to be a civilian air traffic controller I would have to quit the air force and re-take the NAV CANADA course and pass their check-out procedure in order to get a civilian license. I would not think that the military cares to much if you have failed your NAV Can certificate test. Being selected for AEC is based on Merit Listing for the military. Score high on aircrew, and education etc...and hopefully you will be selected. Show the recruiting centre you have the apptitude for AEC. I have friends who went on course with me who are very smart and gifted, but they did not make it through the course at NAV Centre (Canadian Forces School of Aerspace Control Operations). The trade takes hard work and dedication...be prepared to work abnormally hard. In the end, it is very worth it and everyone I work with are great to be around because we all love our jobs. Good Luck!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Kenshi on October 26, 2015, 19:32:30

To current AEC's

I should be writing my Air Crew Selection by the end of November 2015. By the time I hopefully get merit listed it's already going to be January 2016.

From the Forces.ca website, it shows that Aerospace Control Officer is in demand. Can anyone currently serving as an AEC kindly confirm the current shortage for AEC?

Will the shortage continue after next financial year?

Reason I'm asking is because my application is moving very slowly, and I'm hoping that the shortage isn't filled by the time my application is complete.

Thank you kindly!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Lilswitche on November 04, 2015, 19:08:53
Can anyone currently serving as an AEC kindly confirm the current shortage for AEC?

Refer back to your recruitment center for up-to-date numbers for the trade. They may also be able to provide you with the date of the selection board.

Would a former AC Op be favoured for AEC upon completion of a bachelor's degree?

I can only speak to the Air Traffic Control side of AC Op/AEC. Undergoing AC Op training would certainly give you an advantage when training as an AEC, as both trades work side by side. Whether or not that gives you an advantage in selection, is a question best posed to a recruiter.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: bscriber on October 12, 2016, 11:00:56
Good morning,

I'm just waiting to be merit listed and was reading through some of the topics in this section and just have a few general questions.  When I started my application process back in July 2015, I was divorced and single.  Since then, I've gotten into a serious relationship, and my girlfriend (who is not from a military family or background) had a couple of questions about working hours and moving.

1) What are working hours generally like for AEC Officers?  I'm committed to working whatever hours are required, but we were just curious as to what a "normal" work week looks like.

2) Can she live with me for VFR/IFR/Wpns training in Cornwall?

I did a search and found some of these answers for other trades, but not for AEC specifically.

Thanks for your time,

Brian
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on October 14, 2016, 00:29:41
Work hours are going to vary depending on which unit you're posted to. Some units may have you working 8 hour shifts, some might have you working 12s. It's nearly guaranteed your first posting after training will involve shift work.

As for living with you while in Cornwall... yes, it is possible. If she stays at the Nav Centre, there's an additional fee per day she stays which covers meal service. She could also move into a rental in town. In either case, trust me when I say don't do it. The courses are intense, and having a significant other present would be a significant distraction. Have her come spend a weekend or two if she's not far away, or just settle for skype.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: bscriber on October 14, 2016, 09:48:44
Thanks for the advice, Guy.   Though it will be a bit yet in regards to Cornwall, I think by that point she'll be good for just coming on weekends (we live in Belleville, so it's only a three hour drive away).    Take care!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on March 01, 2017, 11:36:11
Hey All,

My current situation is as follows:
 - previously in as MARS, currently supp res,
 - application is nearly complete, Interview/Security Clearance done. Waiting on medical to be reviewed in Ottawa,
 - it's been confirmed I don't have to redo basic trg,
 - waiting to be merit listed then will do either OJT or Cornwall.

My questions are: Do we know if there is still pre-course work to be done as of 2017? (I can find threads referring to it as of 2012, just wondering if there is any change)

Is there any unclassified material that could be suggested to better prepare myself for the upcoming course and subsequent career? (Currently bouncing between various Wikipedia pages on orders of battle and the book 'From the Ground Up'). I'd prefer a more focused approach if people have more relevant suggestions.

Thanks
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: edlabonte on March 01, 2017, 20:28:26
There is still pre-course work in 2017.  There is a Common AEC Course to do and then when you are selected for your Control Environment (Weapons/IFR/VFR) you will have more pre-course work to do before that specific controller course. 

"From the Ground Up" is a good start but unless you know what type of course you're going on any prep until then would be futile IE why study what a Tower Controller does if you get loaded on a Weapons Course. 

Good luck with the re-enrollment process

See you in the Ops Room
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on March 02, 2017, 08:06:00
Thanks for information. Is the common course component done in Cornwall or as OJT? Where is the pre-course work for the specific control environment done? Do you happen to know the time frame these typically follow (duration and typical time between). I guess I'll continue with 'From the Ground Up', is there any other things to look at that would be similar across all three control environments to focus on?

Thanks again for your time and assistance!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: edlabonte on March 03, 2017, 21:36:30
Common Course in Cornwall is about a month, Pre Course while you wait at which ever base you are sent for OJT will probably last 3 months.  IFR/Weapons are 5 months and VFR course is 4 months.  I think the only other thing you can study are military and civilian aircraft identification and identifier codes. 
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on March 15, 2017, 15:50:27
Do you happen to have a link where I could find those handy codes? I've googled them but come up with all kinds of clutter instead of what I'm looking for.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: edlabonte on March 16, 2017, 01:10:21
http://www.prokerala.com/travel/airports/canada/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ICAO_aircraft_type_designators
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Lilswitche on March 19, 2017, 23:02:06
If you get streamed IFR/VFR there'll be a pre-course in Trenton for a couple weeks immediately before going to Cornwall.  The first 2 weeks in Cornwall will serve as a common course for general aviation information.  Both the IFR and VFR courses are changing dramatically, so a lot of the stream specific pre-course material won't be as useful to gloss over.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get ahead before starting.  Try to get a good OJT at an operational unit, it'll help.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on March 23, 2017, 11:33:17
Thanks for the additional information, looking for study material more to fill my time productively than out of worry. Any suggestions on a good placement for OJT that's close to the east coast?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: mariomike on March 23, 2017, 11:39:01
Any suggestions on a good placement for OJT that's close to the east coast?

This may help,

AEC OJT
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+AEC+OJT&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=h93TWMHaIcGC8QegnYEQ&gws_rd=ssl#spf=377
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Lilswitche on March 23, 2017, 23:50:05
Thanks for the additional information, looking for study material more to fill my time productively than out of worry. Any suggestions on a good placement for OJT that's close to the east coast?

Are you looking to Weapons or ATC? ATC wise the only operational unit would be Greenwood.  I've never been there, so I can't comment on how effective the stay would be in preparation for your course.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on March 24, 2017, 07:39:40
I'm interested in Weapons but as far as I understand I don't get the option. Greenwood would be nice on that side of things. I've asked this in other threads but never received an answer, do you guys know when the next selection dates are for AEC, or when the next common course is being run?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Lilswitche on March 27, 2017, 13:58:13


I'm interested in Weapons but as far as I understand I don't get the option. Greenwood would be nice on that side of things. I've asked this in other threads but never received an answer, do you guys know when the next selection dates are for AEC, or when the next common course is being run?

Refer to a recruiter for selection dates.

Wrt which stream you'll be entered into:  you submit your preferences and they take that into consideration.  I haven't seen many that were made to go ATC when they wanted Weapons or vice versa.

The master course calendar can be found from any dwan computer: Borden mil site -> 16 Wg -> CFSACO -> "Master Calendar 2017".
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Revan on May 17, 2017, 12:49:07
Looking for a VFR AEC officer who wouldn't mind sending me a direct msg to answer some questions I have regarding the common phase.

Would greatly appreciate your time :)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on June 18, 2017, 21:21:40
I've looked through the various forums and I've got part of an idea of what is upcoming. I recently was told that my file was selected from the competition list and will be receiving an offer shortly, since I'm bypassing BMOQ what is the next step? I know trades training for the AEC typically occurs in July and January, however I'm skeptical that I'd be able to be loaded on the course this short notice and I'm under the impression there is pre-course work to complete regardless. That leaves OJT as an option, or is there another course I'm missing that needs completion? I remember when I was in the Navy we had Naval Environmental Trg, is there an equivalent? I'm trying to figure this out to A) see if I'm going to be waiting a while for the offer (til say a week before an environmental course opens up) and B) the likelihood of going immediately onto OJT near my family to begin studying/DL/anything else required.

Any illumination into the matter would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on June 19, 2017, 10:00:40
If there's anyone still using this thread, would you be able to go through the general taskings, prep work, officership courses etc. that would take place on OJT prior to trades training for AEC?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 19, 2017, 12:10:55
I've looked through the various forums and I've got part of an idea of what is upcoming. I recently was told that my file was selected from the competition list and will be receiving an offer shortly, since I'm bypassing BMOQ what is the next step? I know trades training for the AEC typically occurs in July and January, however I'm skeptical that I'd be able to be loaded on the course this short notice and I'm under the impression there is pre-course work to complete regardless. That leaves OJT as an option, or is there another course I'm missing that needs completion? I remember when I was in the Navy we had Naval Environmental Trg, is there an equivalent? I'm trying to figure this out to A) see if I'm going to be waiting a while for the offer (til say a week before an environmental course opens up) and B) the likelihood of going immediately onto OJT near my family to begin studying/DL/anything else required.

Any illumination into the matter would be appreciated!
Quote
If there's anyone still using this thread, would you be able to go through the general taskings, prep work, officership courses etc. that would take place on OJT prior to trades training for AEC?

Since you're bypassing BMOQ, you'll be reporting to a unit for OJT until your AEC course starts. OJT near family can happen - I've seen many hard air trades do OJT with CFRC's and PRes units to be close to family. If you get an offer, push a request through the CFRC to be posted near your current location. Do bear in mind, it is only a request, 2CAD has every right to say no.

The RCAF has the Air Force Officer Development courses as the Environmental Training. AFOD 1-4 are all DL courses, and AFOD 5 is residential. As a 2Lt on OJT, AFOD 1 and 2 are good courses to get under your belt. AFOD 3-5 are more geared towards qualified Captains. Talk to your unit training rep about getting put on AFOD courses.

Also for pan-CAF officer development, there is the CAF Junior Officer Development (CAFJOD) courses - formerly the OPME's. All CAFJOD courses are available on DLN for self-nomination. If you did any OPME's while you were in the Navy, you can apply them towards completion of CAFJOD.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: AlwaysWaiting on June 22, 2017, 19:42:40
Thanks for the information! That's exactly what I was looking for, I asked the question to CFRC about OJT location and although they said the offer should be "any day now" they also indicated that OJT is done at the unit where you will be conducting your occupational training (in this case Cornwall). With that said you mentioned you can push/ask for an OJT posting more local. How would this process look? I've emailed the file manager in charge of my file with the request, I'm wondering if this is the proper process or is there anything else that needs/should be done. If it turns out that it's declined and there's nothing further I can do so be it, I just wanted to be sure I've turned over all the stones I can.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Guy Incognito on June 23, 2017, 13:32:07
Thanks for the information! That's exactly what I was looking for, I asked the question to CFRC about OJT location and although they said the offer should be "any day now" they also indicated that OJT is done at the unit where you will be conducting your occupational training (in this case Cornwall). With that said you mentioned you can push/ask for an OJT posting more local. How would this process look? I've emailed the file manager in charge of my file with the request, I'm wondering if this is the proper process or is there anything else that needs/should be done. If it turns out that it's declined and there's nothing further I can do so be it, I just wanted to be sure I've turned over all the stones I can.

Unfortunately, I don't know the fine details of how to push such a request through a CFRC. I'd imagine that going through your file manager is the way to go. If not, once you've accepted the offer and re-enrolled, you could push such a request to 2 CAD / AF AEC Trg through your CoC at your first unit.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on August 12, 2017, 21:41:50
Hello everyone,

I'm doing further research on what occupations I would like to pursue in the Air Force/Navy. AEC is one of my top choices, however, I had questions that I hope the forum can help answer. My questions are the following (broken down into numbered format so it is easier to read):

1. How does rank progression work in the Air Force? I understand that further training and number of years spent serving are the primary factors that matter but I was wondering what the general timeline is like to reach Captain and beyond.

2. If I fail professional training, will I be let go from the Air Force? Also, what if I have AEC as my only listed occupation choice in this scenario?

3. How long is the years of service for the AEC occupation?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: edlabonte on August 12, 2017, 23:47:54
1.  BMOQ + Bachelor's Degree + 2nd LT,  2LT + Occupational Function Point = LT,  LT + 2 Years = Capt.  Promotion beyond Capt really varies because that's when they start looking at your annual reviews, education, language profile, and other things at a promotion board.  Promotion to Maj usually takes a long time to get but promotions beyond major seem to get shorter and shorter the higher you go.
Reaching OFP varies by occupation, Pilot is 3+ years to reach wings standard, ACSO is 1.5+, AEC varies by what type of Controller you become but no more than 2 years.

2.  Typically if you fail your training, you are allowed to select a different occupation you meet entry requirements for.  If you fail that they often let you go.  You might get the option to give up your commission and become an NCM if you choose.

3.  AEC are required to serve as an AEC for 5 years (don't quote me on that, check with the recruiting center) after reaching OFP.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on August 13, 2017, 14:42:59
1.  BMOQ + Bachelor's Degree + 2nd LT,  2LT + Occupational Function Point = LT,  LT + 2 Years = Capt.  Promotion beyond Capt really varies because that's when they start looking at your annual reviews, education, language profile, and other things at a promotion board.  Promotion to Maj usually takes a long time to get but promotions beyond major seem to get shorter and shorter the higher you go.
Reaching OFP varies by occupation, Pilot is 3+ years to reach wings standard, ACSO is 1.5+, AEC varies by what type of Controller you become but no more than 2 years.

2.  Typically if you fail your training, you are allowed to select a different occupation you meet entry requirements for.  If you fail that they often let you go.  You might get the option to give up your commission and become an NCM if you choose.

3.  AEC are required to serve as an AEC for 5 years (don't quote me on that, check with the recruiting center) after reaching OFP.

Thanks for the info. In case of #2, what happens if I would not like to pursue another occupation, since I really am leaning to listing only AEC as my only occupation? Essentially, what I am asking is if I'm "forced" to take another occupation? I apologize if this sounds ignorant but I would like to know as much information as possible before giving a 100% of my commitment to something important.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: PuckChaser on August 13, 2017, 15:55:05
If you owe some obligatory service due to ROTP, you can be forced into another trade or have to pay back the schooling.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: mariomike on August 13, 2017, 16:07:28
Essentially, what I am asking is if I'm "forced" to take another occupation?

If you owe some obligatory service due to ROTP, you can be forced into another trade or have to pay back the schooling.

To add to what PuckChaser said,

Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=101650.50

Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on August 13, 2017, 16:48:07
If you owe some obligatory service due to ROTP, you can be forced into another trade or have to pay back the schooling.

To add to what PuckChaser said,

Obligatory Service after Training / Education [MERGED]
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=101650.50

Thanks for the additional help. I've recently graduated university without ROTP. Thus, I will be applying as a direct entry applicant.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: mariomike on August 13, 2017, 16:55:44
Thanks for the additional help. I've recently graduated university without ROTP. Thus, I will be applying as a direct entry applicant.

You are welcome.

As a DEO applicant,

DEO - Regular Force - General Questions 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,12753.425.html
18 pages.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on August 14, 2017, 22:21:51
I'm not sure where to post this question but I'll keep it under the AEC thread since it's what I'm aiming for. After my service is complete, what is the process like to continue to stay at the position or move higher in rank? Is it a need/funding based decision by the Forces whether or not you stay in the occupation you have chosen?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Blackadder1916 on August 15, 2017, 14:58:38
I'm not sure where to post this question but I'll keep it under the AEC thread since it's what I'm aiming for. After my service is complete, what is the process like to continue to stay at the position or move higher in rank? Is it a need/funding based decision by the Forces whether or not you stay in the occupation you have chosen?

Maybe it's about time that you start doing some of your own research, instead of asking for the answers to be spoon fed.  The military kinda likes its officers to be self starters.  Just to prove that I'm not a complete dick, I'll give you a few clues.  Since your intent is DEO, let's start with the Defence Administrative Order and Directive (DAOD) that deals with that program, DAOD 5002-2 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5002-2.page) (see, I even provided the link).  Now, that particular document will probably not answer many (or any) of the questions that you have, but it does list most of the references in which those answers may be found.  A couple of the references are not available on-line to unwashed civvies, particularly ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05, The New CF Regular Force Terms of Service and Canadian Forces Administrative Orders (CFAOs - a series of documents that have been in the process of being superseded for years but still hang on - but thanks to the friendly folks at the web archive you can access some of them (http://web.archive.org/web/20050219084229/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp) however don't use what is posted there as a legally justifiable source).

The secret to the military is that once you are in, they make it exceedingly easy to stay in (unless you end up broken, are very, very, very stupid or very corrupt or criminal).  If they hire you, as e.g. a street walker, they will train you to street walk in the manner that they expect of their street walkers (expending great amounts of the Queen's treasure in the process); they will then employ you on whatever street corner of their choosing expecting you to ply your trade as they have instructed, but if you start as a street walker, expect to spend your entire career as a street walker (though you may not be limited to the two buck tricks that was the raison d'être at the start of your days on the game).  Once you near the end of you initial term of service (by whatever name they are calling it) you will undoubtedly be offered to extend your service, it's no big deal, you won't even have to have been a top street walker.  For most it happens automatically and it's (for some) not a question of do I need to do something to request to stay in, but should I accept the offer to extend.



(edited to add a couple of verys to stupid)
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on August 21, 2017, 23:47:37
Maybe it's about time that you start doing some of your own research, instead of asking for the answers to be spoon fed.  The military kinda likes its officers to be self starters.  Just to prove that I'm not a complete dick, I'll give you a few clues.  Since your intent is DEO, let's start with the Defence Administrative Order and Directive (DAOD) that deals with that program, DAOD 5002-2 (http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5002-2.page) (see, I even provided the link).  Now, that particular document will probably not answer many (or any) of the questions that you have, but it does list most of the references in which those answers may be found.  A couple of the references are not available on-line to unwashed civvies, particularly ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05, The New CF Regular Force Terms of Service and Canadian Forces Administrative Orders (CFAOs - a series of documents that have been in the process of being superseded for years but still hang on - but thanks to the friendly folks at the web archive you can access some of them (http://web.archive.org/web/20050219084229/http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/intro_e.asp) however don't use what is posted there as a legally justifiable source).

The secret to the military is that once you are in, they make it exceedingly easy to stay in (unless you end up broken, are very, very, very stupid or very corrupt or criminal).  If they hire you, as e.g. a street walker, they will train you to street walk in the manner that they expect of their street walkers (expending great amounts of the Queen's treasure in the process); they will then employ you on whatever street corner of their choosing expecting you to ply your trade as they have instructed, but if you start as a street walker, expect to spend your entire career as a street walker (though you may not be limited to the two buck tricks that was the raison d'être at the start of your days on the game).  Once you near the end of you initial term of service (by whatever name they are calling it) you will undoubtedly be offered to extend your service, it's no big deal, you won't even have to have been a top street walker.  For most it happens automatically and it's (for some) not a question of do I need to do something to request to stay in, but should I accept the offer to extend.



(edited to add a couple of verys to stupid)

Thanks for the additional help. I've done additional leg work, like you suggested, and it has helped a ton.
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: overwatch on January 09, 2018, 21:04:43
Other members have mentioned that postings for AEC can be typically 4 years. Thank you for the help, as always. I was just wondering if the first posting length after occupational training is a different length.

The CAF said that the AEC occupation has an initial contract length of 6 years. If occupational training takes 2 years and my first posting is 4 years then I will be in only in one spot (would love to see more of Canada but to early to tell if I enter or stay in the occupation). Is my assumption off?
Title: Re: Aerospace Control Officers-AEC [merged]
Post by: Daishi on May 28, 2018, 15:32:14
So I just got a call out of the blue, and I was given a job offer for AEC. I do have to go in on the 26th to update my medical, tho.

This was my second choice (first was MARS), so can anyone give me some food for thought while I wait for a month to go in?

What are some of the various streams within AEC that I can choose to go into/specialize in?