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The Mess => Radio Chatter => Topic started by: Retired AF Guy on August 10, 2019, 12:51:36

Title: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on August 10, 2019, 12:51:36
This will keep the conspiracy theorists busy!

Quote
Jeffrey Epstein, accused sex trafficker, is dead by apparent suicide, found in his Manhattan jail cell

Aug. 10, 2019, 9:19 AM EDT / Updated Aug. 10, 2019, 11:36 AM EDT
By Tom Winter, Jonathan Dienst and Phil McCausland

Jeffrey Epstein, the millionaire financier and accused sex trafficker, is dead by apparent suicide, according to three officials familiar with the matter.

Epstein was in his cell but was not on suicide watch at the time of his death, multiple people familiar with the investigation told NBC News.

His death comes a little over two weeks ago after he was found injured and in a fetal position in his cell at the federal Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan. He was semiconscious with marks on his neck at the time.

In July, two sources told NBC News that Epstein was on suicide watch.

His death also comes one day after a trove of court documents were unsealed providing new details about Epstein's alleged sex trafficking.

Less than 24 hours after the documents were released, officials told NBC News that Epstein, 66, was found unresponsive in his jail cell at 6:30 a.m. ET. He had apparently hanged himself.

Epstein, who was being held on federal sex trafficking charges, was transported Saturday morning from the jail to a hospital in Lower Manhattan. Upon arrival, he was in cardiac arrest, people familiar with the matter say.

The Department of Justice said Epstein was pronounced dead at the hospital. The FBI is investigating his death.

The FBI, which is investigating his death, does not normally look into suicides at a federal Bureau of Prisons facility, but given the nature of this case and out of an “abundance of caution” it has undertaken this probe, a senior law enforcement official said.

There is nothing at this point to suggest foul play in Epstein's death.


 NBC News (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-found-dead-nyc-jail-n1041081)
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 10, 2019, 13:08:27
Clintonized
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 13:11:47
Someone always has a camera,
https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/photos-show-jeffrey-epstein-as-hes-wheeled-into-downtown-hospital/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true#content-wrapper
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Dimsum on August 10, 2019, 13:15:34
I can't wait to see Reddit blow up over this.  The political subs are going to be busy today.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 10, 2019, 13:33:59
Conspiracy theorists are going to go nuts.
Time to buy shares in Alcan.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 15:11:13
Clintonized

Conspiracy theorists are going to go nuts.
Time to buy shares in Alcan.

3,2,1,

Quote
Trump aide Patton floats baseless conspiracy theory in Epstein suicide: ‘Hillary’d’
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-patton-pushes-conspiracy-theory-epstein-suicide-20190810-qrokjw3k3jgu7lzypnpaqtxdky-story.html

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: SeaKingTacco on August 10, 2019, 16:25:44
This development is pretty darned convenient for alot of people.

How, exactly, does a guy, in prison, on suicide watch (presumably under 24hr surveillance) manage to hang himself?
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 16:31:42
How, exactly, does a guy, in prison, on suicide watch (presumably under 24hr surveillance) manage to hang himself?

Quote
Epstein wasn't on suicide watch at time of his death: reports
https://thehill.com/homenews/news/456960-epstein-wasnt-on-suicide-watch-at-time-of-his-death-reports


Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 10, 2019, 16:36:19
This development is pretty darned convenient for alot of people.

How, exactly, does a guy, in prison, on suicide watch (presumably under 24hr surveillance) manage to hang himself?

We have guys on watch all the time. The psych people speak with them and most are off watch after a week or so. They are not on a permanent watch.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 16:47:37
We have guys on watch all the time. The psych people speak with them and most are off watch after a week or so. They are not on a permanent watch.

Even then, no guarantees. Ashley Smith killed herself while under suicide watch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Smith_inquest

Her family brought a lawsuit against Correctional Service of Canada (CSC) for negligence. They settled out of court for $11 million.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ashley-smith-family-settles-11m-suit-1.1003660

Quote
Jack Donson, a former longtime federal Bureau of Prisons case manager, told NBC News that suicide watch in federal lockup "usually only lasts a few days to week" due to the amount of manpower the 24-hour surveillance entails.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prison-experts-are-stunned-angry-jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-n1041121
"It requires staff to do overtime shifts," Donson said, and is "not considered a good use of resources."

Epstein had been placed in the MCC's Special Housing Unit instead of general population for his own safety, given his notoriety, and Donson noted that incidents of suicide are higher in the SHU.

"You're isolated with your own thoughts," he said, "and it's not as monitored and supervised."

Guards are supposed to check on prisoners every 30 minutes, but sometimes aren't diligent about doing so, Donson said, and regardless, inmates "can do themselves a lot of harm in 30 minutes."

He also raised the question of whether Epstein was in a cell with a camera, because some cells in the MCC have them. Officials will also review the range camera outside the cell to make sure guards had indeed been checking on him.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: expwor on August 10, 2019, 17:42:19
This development is pretty darned convenient for alot of people.

How, exactly, does a guy, in prison, on suicide watch (presumably under 24hr surveillance) manage to hang himself?

Being on suicide watch doesn't necessarily mean someone is watching him, and only him 24/7. It means the correctional officer would likely check his cell every 15 minutes (normally a correctional officer does his/her wind/count every hour)  But placing an offender under suicide watch would be in addition to all other duties/responsibilities the officer has on his/her shift.  He/she still needs to check on other inmates
How often a cell is checked is usually determined by psychologists etc who dealt with the offender.
BTW this is based on my experience working for the Correctional Service of Canada for 29 years, including a few years as a Correctional Officer

Tom
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 10, 2019, 18:01:23
And 'constant watch' [one CO to one offender} is freakin' costly.   I did figure with such a high-profile inmate, with lots of people who'd want him gone, he'd be on it.  At the minimum in baby dolls and security blankets. I know where he'd be stashed away here in Ontario, and between the cameras and the Officer sitting in the diamond right outside his window door, very little chance this could have happened.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Blackadder1916 on August 10, 2019, 18:49:00

How, exactly, does a guy, in prison, on suicide watch (presumably under 24hr surveillance) manage to hang himself?

Because there is a God?
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on August 10, 2019, 19:05:05
And 'constant watch' [one CO to one offender} is freakin' costly.   I did figure with such a high-profile inmate, with lots of people who'd want him gone, he'd be on it.  At the minimum in baby dolls and security blankets. I know where he'd be stashed away here in Ontario, and between the cameras and the Officer sitting in the diamond right outside his window door, very little chance this could have happened.

Especially when you consider that back in mid-July he was found in his cell, injured. Whether suicide attempt, attack or self-inflicted (https://www.vox.com/2019/7/25/20727304/jeffrey-epstein-found-injured-jail-suicide-watch) no one knows or at least not talking.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 19:08:20
Because there is a God?

Something tells me the paramedics who had to work him up weren't too enthusiastic about it.

I expect there will be civil lawsuits against his estate in the weeks ahead.

Quote
NBC

Trump retweets Epstein conspiracy theory, claiming Clinton connection
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-retweets-epstein-conspiracy-theory-claiming-clinton-connection-n1041146?cid=public-rss_20190810



Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Navy_Pete on August 10, 2019, 19:45:20
This development is pretty darned convenient for alot of people.


Not going to lie, got a little tin foil hat myself when I heard this. He was moving in the kind of circles doing super sketchy things where there are billionaires implicated. Don't care about him, but hopefully they keep digging and get some of the others.

Don't seriously think someone had him killed, but definitely hampers any investigation.  Big difference between a rumour and having him testify in court against them.

Weird for Trump to start tweeting conspiracy theories when he's just as smeared by this as anyone else. I'm sure there is all kinds of things already going about him having him killed.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: AbdullahD on August 10, 2019, 19:51:30
Not going to lie, got a little tin foil hat myself when I heard this. He was moving in the kind of circles doing super sketchy things where there are billionaires implicated. Don't care about him, but hopefully they keep digging and get some of the others.

Don't seriously think someone had him killed, but definitely hampers any investigation.  Big difference between a rumour and having him testify in court against them.

Weird for Trump to start tweeting conspiracy theories when he's just as smeared by this as anyone else. I'm sure there is all kinds of things already going about him having him killed.

Rich, powerful, corrupt and sketchy.. maybe he just weighed his odds and decided suicide was best. Chose his way out, on his terms at his time.

I could see a lot of headache and heartaches for those he loved or who loved him and in order to minimize that he killed himself? Lived the high life to long, hurting to many people and now that reality set in and he was looking at a crappy end of his life.. he ended it sooner. Possibly to reduce risk from corrupt billionaires too.. if you are a tin foil guy... I'm more in favor he was just mentally unstable.

Abdullah
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 10, 2019, 20:32:46
Epstein's death has set off an investigation.His cell had no cctv according to initial reports. Civil lawsuits will continue against his estate. An attorney who has been involved with similar deaths in custody that it should be treated as a homicide until evidence conclusively points to suicide. I guess that's a wise precaution. Just wait for the FBI report as he died in Federal custody.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 20:45:03
Big difference between a rumour and having him testify in court against them.

Assuming he did kill himself, talk about a good friend.  :)

"Don't worry about anything, Frankie Five Angels."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-PGJpKQZg
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Navy_Pete on August 10, 2019, 21:40:17
Rich, powerful, corrupt and sketchy.. maybe he just weighed his odds and decided suicide was best. Chose his way out, on his terms at his time.

I could see a lot of headache and heartaches for those he loved or who loved him and in order to minimize that he killed himself? Lived the high life to long, hurting to many people and now that reality set in and he was looking at a crappy end of his life.. he ended it sooner. Possibly to reduce risk from corrupt billionaires too.. if you are a tin foil guy... I'm more in favor he was just mentally unstable.

Abdullah

No, I assume that he looked at a life in prison as a child molester and did it himself. Robs his victims of justice, but hopefully with the FBI investigation the freeze his assets so they don't get dispersed before they can sue his estate.

There is a whole cult of 9/11 theorists that think that was some kind of inside job with an unbelievably elaborate scenario, so offing someone in jail to cover pedo billionaires is a pretty obvious one for them to run with. Also not outside the realm of possibility as stranger things have happened, but seems more complicated then him being a coward.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Remius on August 10, 2019, 21:53:06
Agreed.

He’s spent what? A few months in jail up to that point.

Maybe he didn’t like what he was going through and what potentially was waiting for him for the rest of his life, saw the writing on the wall and offed himself. 

It’s a hard fall going from Billionaire to hard time for life, a target in prison with zero chance of getting out.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2019, 22:01:07
He was 66. Only a presidential pardon could have saved him from dying in a federal prison.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Colin P on August 10, 2019, 22:03:21
I would just like to point out that I know nothing about the Clintons..............
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: AbdullahD on August 10, 2019, 23:14:06
I would just like to point out that I know nothing about the Clintons..............

Uh huh....

*makes a phone call*
"We have another one"
*hangs up*

^^
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on August 11, 2019, 21:26:24
Interesting article on how suicides in US prisons is not that unusual.

Quote
The Completely Predictable Death of Jeffrey Epstein

If you are shocked by a jail suicide you aren’t paying attention to the grim conditions of incarceration in America.

By Andrew Cohen
August 11, 2019

The reported suicide on Saturday of disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein in a federal jail cell in the heart of Manhattan was both utterly shocking and completely predictable. It’s shocking that the Bureau of Prisons was unable to keep Epstein alive pending his federal sex trafficking trial and that jail officials, knowing the world was watching this case so closely, allowed his death even after Epstein’s apparent failed attempt to take his own life three weeks ago. That’s negligence by definition, whether the celebrity defendant was placed on or taken off “suicide watch.”

But inmate suicides are such a regular part of life in American prisons and jails that none of us should be surprised whenever they occur. They are the leading cause of death behind bars, and have been for many years, and the problem seems to be getting worse. The latest statistics, from 2014, tell us the rate of suicides in jails was the highest it’s been since at least 2000. This even though there is more public awareness surrounding the phenomenon and a cry for better records (and details) about the number of suicides that take place each year.

Inmates suicides are an epidemic corrections officials won’t talk about. The deaths transcend race and geography. They occur, as we saw with Epstein, in federal jails in a big city and they occur in lonely rural prisons. They occur where a pretrial detainee has been jailed just days earlier, as was the case with Sandra Bland in Texas, and they occur where a convicted prisoner has been left to languish for months or years in solitary confinement. Not every suicide can be prevented, of course, but scores of inmates could be saved every year if corrections officials would just earnestly protect those in their custody and control.

These deaths occur not just because guards are poorly trained and jails understaffed, or because often the procedures in place to protect suicidal inmates are woefully outdated and inadequate. The biggest problem is one of attitude. Inmates are able to commit suicide because their guards have dehumanized them to the point where they don’t care enough whether they live or die. Epstein’s death reminded me of the remorseless, cruel attitude that allows inmates to be kept shackled even in death, when they leave for the local morgue.

Take Ohio, as an example. Remember Ariel Castro, the high-profile “Cleveland kidnapper”? He killed himself in a jail cell in October 2013 and then his guards falsified their logs to hide their incompetence. Remember Billy Slagle? He committed suicide in an Ohio jail hours after prosecutors discovered evidence that might have spared him. Pick a state, any state, and similar stories abound. Hundreds of men and women kill themselves in their cells. How many guards do you think are disciplined when these suicides occur? How many lose their jobs?

Nor should any of us be surprised that the Bureau of Prisons, our national prison system, is the scene of so many suicides. Federal prison officials for years, for decades, have refused to acknowledge the scope of the problem. For instance, in the wake of a spate of suicides a few years ago they sent out a note to inmates encouraging the despairing among them to come forward. When one inmate, Percy Barron, came forward asking for such help he was ignored. So he tried to kill himself, failed, and then was punished for breaking BOP rules.

Nearly six years ago I wrote about the suicide of Robert Gerald Knott, who killed himself at the ADX-Florence penitentiary in Colorado. We know the grim details of Knott’s last moments only because a fellow prisoner, Jabbar Currence, chronicled the suicide and then shared what he had seen with his lawyer. Congressional oversight? Don’t bet on it. I’ve watched countless hours of Capitol Hill testimony from Bureau of Prisons officials and the only thing I ever learned is that there is no transparency or accountability within the BOP. It is its own fiefdom.

U.S. Attorney General William Barr said Saturday that Epstein’s death was “appalling” and that the Justice Department already is investigating the matter. Congress, too, wants answers about how this could happen to a high-profile inmate in one of the most secure jails in the nation. The feds said over the weekend that Epstein was taken off a suicide watch on July 29, less than one week after his reported failed suicide attempt. Who made this dubious decision, and why, must be shared with the public in the investigations to come.

Until then, and likely afterward, Epstein’s death will be enveloped by conspiracy theories, many of which surfaced before his body got cold. The only real conspiracy here is the ageless one between and among prison guards and jail officials who too often treat at-risk inmates with callous disregard and deliberate indifference. Too many guards just don’t care whether a prisoner lives or dies. Until that changes, each year hundreds of men and women, both the guilty and the innocent, will die, desperate and alone in their cells.

Andrew Cohen is a senior editor at The Marshall Project, and a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice.

 Link. (https://newrepublic.com/article/154729/completely-predictable-death-jeffrey-epstein) Original article includes links.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 11, 2019, 22:01:22
He can suck my a$$......
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Blackadder1916 on August 11, 2019, 23:38:05
He can suck my a$$......

While Epstein allegedly had some sexual perversions, that particular fetish has not been reported as being within his repertoire.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 11, 2019, 23:48:56
Interesting article on how suicides in US prisons is not that unusual.

 Link. (https://newrepublic.com/article/154729/completely-predictable-death-jeffrey-epstein) Original article includes links.

And not unusual in our federal system either.

We’ve had one completed suicide in our Manitoba provincial system since 2010.

It all depends on how seriously you take the person at risk and how well you do your job.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Brihard on August 12, 2019, 08:39:22
He can suck my a$$......

That will be considerably harder for him to do now.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 12, 2019, 09:00:09
I'm thinking I should have much more specific... :facepalm:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Journeyman on August 12, 2019, 09:50:59
I'm thinking I should have much more specific... :facepalm:
No, the imagery from that simple statement is more than enough, thanks.   :boke:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 12, 2019, 17:19:50
 :sarcasm: I don't care who you are. Nobody has 56 friends that commit suicide :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 12, 2019, 20:30:24
It all depends on how seriously you take the person at risk and how well you do your job.

This.  :salute:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Remius on August 12, 2019, 21:53:34

The conspiracy nuts on left thinks it’s Trump.  the conspiracy nuts on the right think it’s Clinton. 

My money is on Candyman.


It might not be that far fetched that Epstein himself paid off an overworked underpaid Guard to turn a blind eye so he could make his exit.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 12, 2019, 22:33:18
Some people love their conspiracy theories,

Quote
In Epstein Tweets, Trump Revisits a Favored Conspiracy Genre: Murder
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/us/politics/trump-epstein-conspiracy-theories.html
President Trump has long used his fame and platform to amplify conspiracy theories and undermine his political enemies by muddying the waters when it comes to facts.

Probably the most infamous jail house suicide since Hermann Göring.

Not all that uncommon among high profile inmates,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prison_deaths
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 12, 2019, 22:39:31
I'm not going to yammer and pontificate much more on this subject.

We, at least in our institution, take all talk of suicide seriously. Some of our guests joke about it and we know that, but they are still assessed  to ascertain that they are not suicidal.
I'm an ASIST instructor and I tell everyone to take all suicide talk seriously. We have to.

Would an Epstein completed suicide in any jail? Possibly yes. As for him being taken off suicide watch, few inmates are on suicide watch for longer than a week. Generally the suicidal thoughts go away and they are downgraded, moved back to his or her cell and supervised like other inmates.

We did have one inmate on suicide watch for months on end. His crime was particularly heinous, but despite how we felt personally about him we ensured he stayed alive. He was one of the few who needed one on one suicide watch because he would have attempted if he was in a camera cell.

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 12, 2019, 22:44:23
I'm no prevention expert. But, one observation I came to many years ago was if someone was determined to kill themselves, they would.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: expwor on August 13, 2019, 08:16:47
The conspiracy nuts on left thinks it’s Trump.  the conspiracy nuts on the right think it’s Clinton. 

My money is on Candyman.


It might not be that far fetched that Epstein himself paid off an overworked underpaid Guard to turn a blind eye so he could make his exit.

I bet he didn't even have to do that.  Just say the "right" things to prison staff (Correctional Officers, Psychologists etc) to make them believe he isn't suicidal, and they take him off suicide watch. And to those surprised he was off suicide watch I'd be surprised after a few weeks behind bars he'd still be on it.  In my experience in corrections it's been a short term "solution" if you will, to prevent suicides.  And it's more than just physical security monitoring (cameras, checking cell etc), it involves psychologists/psychiatrists counselling the offender.  Usually three to four days has been the maximum I've seen inmates on suicide watch in my experience
 
As for those having these conspiracy theories, here's one.  Epstein was a 66 year old high profile pedophile facing 45 years (I believe that would have been his sentence) behind bars, doing hard time.  He would have been released when he turned 111 years old, meaning in reality he'd die behind bars.  Epstein did the math and decided why wait to die behind bars, he'll do it now by his own hands.  Really no surprise at all

My two cents

Tom

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 13, 2019, 15:40:43
Quote
13 Aug., 2109
NY Post
Why was Jeffrey Epstein’s death on 4chan before it became public?
https://nypost.com/2019/08/13/why-was-jeffrey-epsteins-death-on-4chan-before-it-became-public/

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: VinceW on August 13, 2019, 16:29:31
Most don’t like the truth just like the Kennedy assasination
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on August 13, 2019, 18:52:19
Breaking news!! Epstein's killer has been identified! Picture follows:

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Brihard on August 13, 2019, 19:41:22
I bet he didn't even have to do that.  Just say the "right" things to prison staff (Correctional Officers, Psychologists etc) to make them believe he isn't suicidal, and they take him off suicide watch. And to those surprised he was off suicide watch I'd be surprised after a few weeks behind bars he'd still be on it.  In my experience in corrections it's been a short term "solution" if you will, to prevent suicides.  And it's more than just physical security monitoring (cameras, checking cell etc), it involves psychologists/psychiatrists counselling the offender.  Usually three to four days has been the maximum I've seen inmates on suicide watch in my experience
 
As for those having these conspiracy theories, here's one.  Epstein was a 66 year old high profile pedophile facing 45 years (I believe that would have been his sentence) behind bars, doing hard time.  He would have been released when he turned 111 years old, meaning in reality he'd die behind bars.  Epstein did the math and decided why wait to die behind bars, he'll do it now by his own hands.  Really no surprise at all

My two cents

Tom

Yup. Doing time behind real security as a rich guy who's also a skinner? That's about as bad a go as it gets. I have no difficulty believing he killed himself. He probably knew they had him dead to rights and that it would only get worse once search warrants were executed.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Retired AF Guy on August 13, 2019, 19:54:57
Yup. Doing time behind real security as a rich guy who's also a skinner? That's about as bad a go as it gets. I have no difficulty believing he killed himself. He probably knew they had him dead to rights and that it would only get worse once search warrants were executed.

IIRC he wouldn't be going to trial until next June at the earliest; so a whole year stuck in a cell that's probably not much bigger a medium sized washroom. And as Brihard says, in the prison system, child abusers are the lowest of the low.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 13, 2019, 20:14:08
IIRC he wouldn't be going to trial until next June at the earliest; so a whole year stuck in a cell that's probably not much bigger a medium sized washroom. And as Brihard says, in the prison system, child abusers are the lowest of the low.

Unless you are former PC Michael Bunting, of course:

Michael Bunting endured every cop's worst nightmare... being banged up in jail with criminals

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/michael-bunting-endured-every-cops-342131
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 14, 2019, 10:11:19
Quote
Epstein guards suspected of falsifying logs to show they were checking on him: report
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/jeffrey-epstein-s-jail-guards-suspected-of-falsifying-logs-ap-source-1.4549020

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: expwor on August 14, 2019, 13:12:20


Not saying not true, since I've never worked in that facility, but when I was in (as a Correctional Officer, not a con) when you did your range walk there was a punch at the end of the range which verified you went down range and back and how long your range walk took. There was also a log book but not just a log book
Surprising they would have a logbook only

Tom
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 14, 2019, 13:29:29
Maybe the place was slack right to the top and didn't bother checking "punches"....until caca hit the fan of course.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 14, 2019, 14:46:16
there was a punch at the end of the range

Maybe the place was slack right to the top and didn't bother checking "punches"....until caca hit the fan of course.

In case anyone is unfamiliar with them,
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 14, 2019, 15:27:43
What amuses me is the speed with which both the "conspiracy" and "nothing to see here" crowds leapt to their respective positions.  Very few people inhabit the "let's wait for the investigation to conclude, shall we?" region any more.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: expwor on August 14, 2019, 15:31:32
The ones we had at Millhaven when I was a young fish screw LOL were on the range wall. You walked to the end of the range and pressed the switch.
But I am familiar (although never used one myself) with the type you showed.
OMG that was a lifetime ago...I still had hair on my head

Tom 
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 14, 2019, 15:58:24
On Instapundit (https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/):

"Seen on Facebook: “While the medical examiner was on lunch break today, Epstein cremated himself.”"
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 14, 2019, 15:59:03
In case anyone is unfamiliar with them,

The old punch clocks have been replaced by an electronic type.

They are a step above the old clocks.

Besides, there are other ways to determine if rounds were or were not done.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 14, 2019, 16:15:58
What amuses me is the speed with which both the "conspiracy" and "nothing to see here" crowds leapt to their respective positions. 

Nothing new about conspiracy theories,

Quote
Jeffrey Epstein and 22 other Trump-fueled conspiracy theories
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/08/12/bizarre-conspiracy-theories-trump-has-elevated/

The old punch clocks have been replaced by an electronic type.

When they used to send us into the Don on calls, their night shift carried the type in the pic. Nice to know they have gone high-tech.

Regarding the guards,
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=641&tbs=qdr%3Ad&ei=QF1UXdOYGISDtQa81qC4Dg&q=epstein+guards&oq=epstein+guards&gs_l=psy-ab.12...0.0..28989...0.0..0.0.0.......0......gws-wiz.x9OaLi_nLxk&ved=0ahUKEwjTuJ_fiIPkAhWEQc0KHTwrCOcQ4dUDCAo




Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Target Up on August 14, 2019, 19:48:01
I was very saddened to hear that Epstein's guard was tragically killed in an auto accident next Thursday.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 14, 2019, 21:40:00
I was very saddened to hear that Epstein's guard was tragically killed in an auto accident next Thursday.

Well played sir
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Haggis on August 14, 2019, 22:16:53
I was very saddened to hear that Epstein's guard was tragically killed in an auto accident next Thursday.

I'll bet the guard calls in sick next Thursday now.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 14, 2019, 22:24:32
Besides, there are other ways to determine if rounds were or were not done.

Like cameras?

Quote
Global News

Surveillance video reviewed after the death showed guards never made some of the checks noted in the log
https://globalnews.ca/news/5762859/jeffrey-epstein-jail-logs-checks/

Sleeping on the job is hardly a conspiracy. I wasn't a guard, but I slept on the job.



Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 15, 2019, 00:41:10
Oops nyuk nyuk nyuk Why I otta....
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: daftandbarmy on August 15, 2019, 00:57:26
Like cameras?

Sleeping on the job is hardly a conspiracy. I wasn't a guard, but I slept on the job.

If I was in charge of a jail, I'd ask the inmates how well the guards were doing their jobs.

Oh, wait, I think I'm channelling the plot for 'Brubaker' :)
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 15, 2019, 15:21:44
If I was in charge of a jail, I'd ask the inmates how well the guards were doing their jobs.



That’s what they do in the Federal system 😉
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Spencer100 on August 15, 2019, 23:20:06
I had a laugh about a FB meme going around.....

"When the medical examiner was on lunch break, Epstein cremated himself." 

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: expwor on August 16, 2019, 18:14:46
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/medical-examiner-epstein-death-suicide-hanging-ruling-1.5250432

Of course conspiracy theorists will say the coroner was paid off to cover up the "truth" of Epstein's death.  But really nothing to see here, just a POS who's gone

Tom
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 16, 2019, 18:27:42
Of course conspiracy theorists will say the coroner was paid off to cover up the "truth" of Epstein's death. 

Of course you are right.

Quote
FBI agents are livid that Trump is amplifying 'bulls--- theories' about Jeffrey Epstein's death 'that have no basis in reality'
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/fbi-agents-are-livid-that-trump-is-amplifying-bulls-theories-about-jeffrey-epsteins-death-that-have-no-basis-in-reality/ar-AAFHNrs
FBI personnel are furious that  President Donald Trump retweeted to his 63 million Twitter followers a baseless conspiracy theory suggesting that former President Bill Clinton was involved in the death of the disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Blackadder1916 on August 19, 2019, 11:37:19
The scandal surrounding Epstein continues to spread, now across the pond.  To be flip, how randy was Andy?

In typical London tabloid sensationalist fashion, the Daily Mail's latest is:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7367511/Prince-Andrew-pictured-inside-paedophile-Jeffrey-Epsteins-63million-mansion-depravity.html
Quote
EXCLUSIVE: Prince Andrew is pictured inside paedophile Jeffrey Epstein's £63million mansion of depravity nine years ago... so how did he miss signs of the billionaire's sexual deviance?
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 19, 2019, 13:28:40
I suspect that we may never know the truth unless video  of the area outside the cell turns up. The FBI has taken evidence from his place in NYC and  his island. It was speculated that he had video evidence of his guests . If it is true then the story will get fleshed out. It is known that Clinton was a guest 27 times or so. Passenger logs would determine any other guests.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on August 19, 2019, 13:38:05
I suspect that we may never know the truth unless video  of the area outside the cell turns up.

There is video. Reply #56,
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,130952.msg1580327.html#msg1580327

See also,

Epstein video,
https://www.google.com/search?q=epstein+guards+video&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gws_rd=ssl#spf=1566232808947


Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 19, 2019, 15:53:23
CCTV in a jail should be required to monitor the guards primarily and the inmates.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 19, 2019, 18:04:47
CCTV in a jail should be required to monitor the guards primarily and the inmates.

We have extensive CCTV and it is difficult to have every inch under camera.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 19, 2019, 21:54:56
Prior to his death he signed a will transferring his assets to a trust and his brother is the sole beneficiary. I dont see how any of his accusers will see a dime as his fortune is protected by the trust.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-will-days-before-suicide-report
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: NavyShooter on August 20, 2019, 19:48:16

Seen today...


Not really a conspiracy guy...but...it seems kinda convenient...
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 23, 2019, 13:50:09
Regarding security,
Quote
The entire night, from 10:30 p.m. to 6:30 a.m., security cameras showed that nobody entered the wing where Mr. Epstein had been left alone in his cell, the indictment said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/19/nyregion/epstein-prison-guards-arrested.html
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: FJAG on November 23, 2019, 15:05:15
Prior to his death he signed a will transferring his assets to a trust and his brother is the sole beneficiary. I dont see how any of his accusers will see a dime as his fortune is protected by the trust.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-will-days-before-suicide-report

"Fraudulent Conveyance" is a long-standing principle of the common law which also applies in the United States.

Quote
A fraudulent conveyance, or fraudulent transfer, is an attempt to avoid debt by transferring money to another person or company. It is generally a civil, not a criminal matter, meaning that one cannot go to jail for it, but in some jurisdictions there is potential for criminal prosecution.[1] It is generally treated as a civil cause of action that arises in debtor/creditor relations, particularly with reference to insolvent debtors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudulent_conveyance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudulent_conveyance)

It just makes matters more complicated but will, in the long run, not be an obstacle to creditors, including judgment creditors. The bigger issue is who will be all the creditor claimants over and above these young women.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 23, 2019, 15:16:51
"Fraudulent Conveyance" is a long-standing principle of the common law which also applies in the United States.

We saw that here in Canada with a serial killer.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 23, 2019, 20:52:15
I’ve heard to two COs on duty at the time were arrested and charged. Good.
I also think whatever department in charge of that jail needs to be investigated.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 23, 2019, 22:25:49
The Bureau of Prisons ran that facility.Both guards turned down plea deals subsequent to their arrest. AG Barr didn't see anything untoward but I hope experts look at the video to see if there were gaps or maybe if the tape was stopped and then started. Both guards were asleep for maybe up to 8 hours. Their supervisor must also have been asleep. I don't doubt that Epstein was killed. The only good to come of this was Randy Andy was finally outed.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 23, 2019, 22:48:42
I don't doubt that Epstein was killed.

Quote
Medical examiner rules Epstein death a suicide by hanging
https://apnews.com/a947e0d85d31496eb5bd9ff4994c9718
NEW YORK (AP) — New York City’s medical examiner ruled Jeffrey Epstein’s death a suicide Friday, confirming after nearly a week of speculation that the financier faced with sex trafficking charges hanged himself in his jail cell.


Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: tomahawk6 on November 24, 2019, 02:47:37
Renown pathologist Dr Baden says murder.He disputes the hanging theory as  impractical.

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/famed-forensic-pathologist-evidence-points-homicide-rather-suicide-epstein-case

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 24, 2019, 09:04:45
Renown pathologist Dr Baden says murder.

Dr. Baden was hired by the late Mr. Epstein's brother.

He discussed Epstein on the "FOX and Friend's" show, where is a contributor,
https://www.foxnews.com/us/forensic-pathologist-jeffrey-epstein-homicide-suicide

Quote
The New York Times

The findings by Dr. Baden were strongly disputed by the city’s chief medical examiner, ...

Dr. Baden served briefly as New York City’s medical examiner. He was provisionally appointed to the position in 1978 and dismissed just a year later, by Mayor Edward I. Koch.

In 1979, the city health commissioner wrote a letter to Mr. Koch — who was the mayor at the time — saying that Dr. Baden had “exhibited poor judgment in many instances,” including when he said that it appeared former Governor Nelson Rockefeller “had died during sexual intercourse.” He denied saying the remark.

In 1995, when O.J. Simpson was on trial for the murders of his former wife and her companion, Dr. Baden testified that evidence pointed to Mr. Simpson’s innocence.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-homicide-autopsy-michael-baden.html

Quote
NBC

2014

Who is Dr. Michael Baden?

In 2007, Baden was again in the news for questionable conduct, this time as he took the stand in the Phil Spector murder trial. He had a fresh theory of how Spector's alleged victim had died, one that provided room for the defense to explain some blood on Spector’s jacket. During cross examination, the prosecutor asked Baden if he had any conflict of interest in this case.

“None that I can think of,” he said, according to the Los Angeles Times. Moments later it was revealed his wife was one of Spector’s main attorneys.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/who-dr-michael-baden-coroner-examined-michael-brown-n183516

"Why You Might Not Want to Believe Michael Baden, Celebrity Pathologist, on Epstein’s Death"
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/why-to-be-skeptical-of-michael-baden-on-epsteins-death.html

Quote
Feds Fight Back as Epstein Death Conspiracy Theories Swirl
The Associated Press
Nov. 23, 2019
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/11/23/business/bc-us-jeffrey-epstein-conspiracy-theories.html
NEW YORK — At another time in history, the indictment of two jail guards responsible for monitoring Jeffrey Epstein the night he killed himself might have served as an emphatic rebuttal to suspicions that the wealthy sex offender was actually murdered.

Not in 2019.

Conspiracy theories continued to flourish, even after prosecutors took pains to point out the ample evidence backing a medical examiner’s determination that Epstein hanged himself.

Video surveillance confirmed, they said in a news release and an indictment, that nobody had entered the area where Epstein was locked in his cell.

The locked door to the unit, they said, could only be opened remotely by an officer in the jail’s control center, plus there was a second locked door to which only correctional officers assigned to the high-security housing unit had the key. Epstein had no roommate, they said, and had died alone.

No matter. Social media buzzed with “Epstein didn’t kill himself” memes, fueled by the financier’s past associations with Britain’s Prince Andrew and U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.

Dr. Michael Baden, the forensic pathologist hired by Epstein’s family to observe his autopsy, also remains incredulous, saying he wanted to hear from the guards before deciding whether it was suicide or homicide.

Eric Oliver, a University of Chicago professor who studies conspiracy theories, said no amount of evidence presented by government authorities is likely to change some people’s minds.











Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: SeaKingTacco on November 24, 2019, 12:16:32
I think the more likely possibility than Mr Epstein having been murdered is that he was "encouraged" to commit suicide and then given the room to do so.

If even half of what is alleged against him was true, he made some very, very powerful enemies. I doubt that he would have lasted a week in a general prison population.
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 24, 2019, 13:34:47
I think the more likely possibility than Mr Epstein having been murdered is that he was "encouraged" to commit suicide

Like the encouragement given to Frankie Five Angels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CWCTExyfQs

and then given the room to do so.

I guess the question for investigators is, was the lack of patrols by the guards on that unit, that night, typical for other nights?

I doubt that he would have lasted a week in a general prison population.

I doubt he would be serving his time in "gen pop".

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Hamish Seggie on November 24, 2019, 14:29:43
He would never be housed in GP. Such a high profile case and handled so poorly. 🤦‍♂️
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: FJAG on November 24, 2019, 15:24:32
I think the more likely possibility than Mr Epstein having been murdered is that he was "encouraged" to commit suicide and then given the room to do so.
...

More likely is that he was feeling his world of supreme entitlement and debauchery tumbling down around his ears. People with a lot less trouble then him have committed suicide.

When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 24, 2019, 18:30:28
I also think whatever department in charge of that jail needs to be investigated.

Looks like they are,

Quote
Hawk Sawyer, ( the new acting head of the Bureau of Prisons ) testified in Congress on Tuesday that the Bureau of Prisons has identified a number of other instances where guards skipped inmate checks and referred those cases to the Justice Department inspector general.

"We are zealously going about trying to determine which of our employees are good employees and who do their job, and that is the vast majority of prison staff, but we do have some I know out there who obviously choose not to follow policy, choose not to do their job, and we want them gone," she said.
https://www.abc-7.com/story/41351392/attorneys-for-jeffrey-epsteins-prison-guards-point-the-blame-at-the-system



Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: Shrek1985 on November 25, 2019, 14:11:17
I think just the fact of how E. was handled as a prisoner points directly to a cover-up.

Was he murdered? I think if he was; we will never, ever be allowed to know. Just picture that as the result of an official investigation; "Yeah, this guy with dirt on the Clintons and tons of others was totally murdered in US Federal Custody." The press would have the choice of going to war with some of their biggest backers or revealing themselves as integral to covering these crimes up over the past number of decades.

The very idea of an official coroner's report coming to that finding is like a government townhall; the issue was decided. But we needed to be able to say that we looked into it and consulted with the people the decision would affect.

There was never going to be an official ruling of murder, no matter what.

Did he kill himself? If he did; he was explicitly allowed to do so in order to effect the cover-up.

Title: Re: Jeffrey Epstein, found in his prison cell.
Post by: mariomike on November 25, 2019, 14:59:54
Lots of internet conspiracy theories,

Quote
Associated Press
November 23, 2019

NEW YORK (AP) — At another time in history, the indictment of two jail guards responsible for monitoring Jeffrey Epstein the night he killed himself might have served as an emphatic rebuttal to suspicions that the wealthy sex offender was actually murdered.

Not in 2019.

Conspiracy theories continued to flourish, even after prosecutors took pains to point out the ample evidence backing a medical examiner’s determination that Epstein hanged himself.

Video surveillance confirmed, they said in a news release and an indictment, that nobody had entered the area where Epstein was locked in his cell.

The locked door to the unit, they said, could only be opened remotely by an officer in the jail’s control center, plus there was a second locked door to which only correctional officers assigned to the high-security housing unit had the key. Epstein had no roommate, they said, and had died alone.
https://apnews.com/a1ef16a612bd4130a18479c01bd72586