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The Mess => Canadian Politics => Topic started by: tomahawk6 on August 09, 2017, 21:07:58

Title: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: tomahawk6 on August 09, 2017, 21:07:58
I think they are a bit shocked that they are not given the warm recption they had hoped for. I see them as future Liberal voters. ;D

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/troops-set-up-tents-at-border-old-royal-vic-to-shelter-asylum-seekers-1.3538567

Canadians soldiers are being deployed to St-Bernard-de-Lacolle to erect tents for asylum seekers attempting to enter Canada from the United States.
Almost 100 troops will be used to set up the camp site, which will consist of "modular tent shelters with lighting and heating and may temporarily accomodate close to 500 people," Department of National Defence spokesperson Evan Koronewski told CTV Montreal in an email.
"The Canadian Armed Forces is aware of the difficult situation that is requiring significant resources of Canada Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and other partners in the area of St-Bernard-de-Lacolle," said Koronewski.

Subject modified as per Reply #4. mm
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 10, 2017, 02:47:22
I think they are a bit shocked that they are not given the warm recption they had hoped for. I see them as future Liberal voters. ;D

A warm place to sleep and food, with guarantees of moving into shelters afterwards is not a warm reception? They should be building a wall, not a welcome center.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: recceguy on August 10, 2017, 03:42:41
That's probably a couple million dollars worth of MSA stores we probably won't recover, but will still have to pay for out of our budget.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Lumber on August 10, 2017, 09:20:36
Not sure how you came to the conclusion that they are all "libs", but hey, the more the merrier! We can't have sunny ways without these shinning stars!  :P
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Journeyman on August 10, 2017, 09:30:12
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/troops-set-up-tents-at-border-old-royal-vic-to-shelter-asylum-seekers-1.3538567
Maybe the Mods could change the title to reflect that they are predominantly the Haitian refugees, which have been in the news for a week for those who don't shun reading, rather than "US Libs."
       ::)
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 10, 2017, 09:36:28
My wife has been saying for more than a week now that the Army should be sent ... to set up a few thousand feet of double concertina wire  ;D

Here's a bizarre thought: These people (most of which, it appears, are economic migrants from Haiti currently legally in the US on valid visa - that can expire - issued further to the recent earthquake) are coming through that "gap" because, if they were coming at an actual border post, the Can/US agreement would kick in and they would have to claim status in the US. Now, CBSA has set itself up with covered facilities and assigned personnel there and so has the RCMP, there are regular buses set up, there are porta-potty set up, now army tents, etc. Here's my thought, at which point does this not become a "border post", which then makes the agreement with the US kick in?  Just asking!
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: mariomike on August 10, 2017, 09:45:26
Maybe the Mods could change the title to reflect that they are predominantly the Haitian refugees,

ok
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Lumber on August 10, 2017, 09:47:04
ok

Political Correctness wins again! :cdnsalute:
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Journeyman on August 10, 2017, 09:54:18
Political Factual (according to the article cited)  Correctness wins again! :cdnsalute:
Insincere apologies to those who find a preference for honesty troubling.   :not-again:
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: Lumber on August 10, 2017, 10:01:29
Insincere apologies to those who find a preference for honesty troubling.   :not-again:

No no I really appreciate the switch (look up and you'll see I was the first to call out the thread name)... I'm just stirring the pot...  :threat:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on August 10, 2017, 10:18:54
Given the makeup of the surge, this draws the eye (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/haiti-refugees-quebec-1.4240678) ...
Quote
Why a visit from the Haitian government has Quebec immigration lawyers worried
'We want to make sure if they are sent back, that they won't be facing problems,' lawyer says
By Benjamin Shingler, CBC News Posted: Aug 09, 2017 4:50 PM ET Last Updated: Aug 10, 2017 6:52 AM ET

A visit by Haitian government representatives to Montreal as thousands of people from the country seek asylum here is raising alarm among Quebec immigration lawyers.

Haiti's Foreign Affairs Minister Antonio Rodrigue and Stéphanie Auguste, the minister for nationals living abroad, met with Mayor Denis Coderre after arriving in Montreal on Tuesday. The pair had even hoped to meet with asylum seekers staying at the Olympic Stadium, Rodrigue told a news conference alongside Coderre.

In the end, they did not visit the stadium, said a spokesperson for PRAIDA, the provincial organization that assists arrivals to Quebec in their first months.

The visit, however, is still cause for concern, said Jean-Sébastien Boudreault, head of the Quebec Association of Immigration Lawyers. He said any contact with the Haitian government could compromise the safety and privacy of those seeking refuge from the country.

"We need to make sure, first and foremost, that we are protecting the people we are supposed to be protecting, which are the people who are seeking a refugee status," Boudreau said in an interview.

"Some of them may not be received as refugees, might not meet the requirements of refugee claimant as stated in Canadian law. So, some of them might be sent back to Haiti and we want to make sure if they are sent back, that they won't be facing problems."

The visit from the Haitian ministers coincided with a surge in asylum seekers from the country ...
More @ link
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 10, 2017, 12:20:48
Here's a bizarre thought: These people (most of which, it appears, are economic migrants from Haiti currently legally in the US on valid visa - that can expire - issued further to the recent earthquake) are coming through that "gap" because, if they were coming at an actual border post, the Can/US agreement would kick in and they would have to claim status in the US. Now, CBSA has set itself up with covered facilities and assigned personnel there and so has the RCMP, there are regular buses set up, there are porta-potty set up, now army tents, etc. Here's my thought, at which point does this not become a "border post", which then makes the agreement with the US kick in?  Just asking!

I would think the US would have to agree to the commissioning of a new border post.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: recceguy on August 10, 2017, 15:56:03
Build a Wall! Build a Wall!  :panic:
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 10, 2017, 16:49:42
I would think the US would have to agree to the commissioning of a new border post.

Why?

Just turn them around and send them back from whence they came.  No need for there to be a post on both sides of the border.  Just a point at which to turn them back.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 10, 2017, 17:06:07
Several thoughts on the whole fiasco, as Trudeau has remained absolutely invisible in the past couple of weeks, never making any comment on this whole matter.  I hope this case is not a "Chretienism" of "ignore the problem and hope it goes away".

First off, Canada has escaped the mass invasion of Economic Migrants, that Europe has suffered under, due to being surrounded by three oceans, and having a nation to our South who takes its border control very seriously. 

A fear that others than Haitians are mixing in with these groups is a Security Issue that must be addressed.  A fear that Somali criminal elements may be mixed in the crowds is being looked at.

The fact that with the large number of illegal migrants claiming 'refugee' status upon entering the country could mean that the timings to get their immigration hearings could exceed eleven months, and a statement from the Liberal government that there may be an "Amnesty" offered, is very disconcerting.

The fact that these may be predominantly persons from a predominantly Roman Catholic, Western nation, who speak a French dialect, may make them much better candidates to integrate into Canadian society, than those from an African or Middle Eastern nation who may not share our Western values, nor speak either French or English, could be seen as a positive point.

Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 10, 2017, 18:16:46
Just turn them around and send them back from whence they came.  No need for there to be a post on both sides of the border.  Just a point at which to turn them back.

That would be hard to do legally.  When they're on the US side of the border we have no jurisdiction, and because they're not US citizens or permanent residents, we have no authority to send them back to the US once they're on our side.  Because the Safe Third Country Agreement specifies border posts, we also have no legal ground to deny asylum claims by those crossing illegally.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 10, 2017, 18:39:53
.....  Because the Safe Third Country Agreement specifies border posts, we also have no legal ground to deny asylum claims by those crossing illegally.

Because of the Safe Third Country Agreement, they were already in a 'Safe Third Country': "America"...................  Crossing into Canada illegally does not mean that they stay here.....Back they go to that Safe Third Country they chose first. They have NO legal ground to seek asylum here.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 10, 2017, 20:37:08
Because of the Safe Third Country Agreement, they were already in a 'Safe Third Country': "America"...................  Crossing into Canada illegally does not mean that they stay here.....Back they go to that Safe Third Country they chose first. They have NO legal ground to seek asylum here.

The Safe Third Country Agreement doesn't apply where they're crossing.  The US is fine with that.  They like it this way.  If they didn't, they'd stop the migrants, because they are the only ones with absolute power to stop the migrants.  We have no authority to send non Americans back to the US once they enter Canada.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: PuckChaser on August 10, 2017, 21:11:59
The Safe Third Country Agreement doesn't apply where they're crossing.  The US is fine with that.  They like it this way.  If they didn't, they'd stop the migrants, because they are the only ones with absolute power to stop the migrants.  We have no authority to send non Americans back to the US once they enter Canada.

Send them back to Haiti then. The first major news article that said someone caught illegally crossing was not sent back to the US, but to their home country, would immediately cease all illegal traffic using this loophole.

We can also close the loophole by having expedited hearings (matter of days not years) to boot them either back across or back to home country.
Title: Re: US Libs Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 10, 2017, 21:24:39
Send them back to Haiti then. The first major news article that said someone caught illegally crossing was not sent back to the US, but to their home country, would immediately cease all illegal traffic using this loophole.

If they say the word asylum and they are not subject to the Safe Third Country Agreement, we have to process their claim.

Quote
We can also close the loophole by having expedited hearings (matter of days not years) to boot them either back across or back to home country.

I'm all in favour of that - the system just isn't designed for this sudden spike though.  I'm totally willing to spend whatever it takes.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 11, 2017, 00:59:43
There was footage that the rebel media had on YouTube where a woman was carrying her luggage and her baby across the Quebec crossing point, she tripped and fell which caused the husband hit her in the head for being clumsy right in front of the RCMP officer. Kind of cringe-worthy.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: recceguy on August 11, 2017, 01:00:50
I don't know, but some of those Haitians look an awful lot like Somalians to me.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 11, 2017, 11:13:25
I don't know, but some of those Haitians look an awful lot like Somalians to me.

There are also Spanish people calling themselves Syrian (weird they only speak Soanish though..) crossing as well.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: medicineman on August 11, 2017, 11:38:58
One of the few visits from government we got in Port au Prince on OP HALO was from Montreal MP's that had a substantial number of ex-pat Haitian constituents in their ridings.  There are likely a fair number of "relatives" around the area that might be taking in "family".  As someone noted, there is a better than even chance that many could integrate easily due to large ex-pat communities.

RG - odd thing about Haiti is it was founded by ex-slaves, so many were from various parts of Africa - when you look at the people around closely, you see different ethnicity.  Some of the folks you were seeing may very well have had East African features and family lineage...of course, you may also be correct and some may have been infiltrating hoping nobody would notice.

MM 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 12, 2017, 17:26:32
Did Hell freeze over?  CBC reporting that half of asylum seekers crossing have criminal records.  (Old report from April)

 http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/920868419922
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 12, 2017, 18:53:03
Did Hell freeze over?  CBC reporting that half of asylum seekers crossing have criminal records.  (Old report from April)

 http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/920868419922

Trudeau did say EVERYONE was welcome....a sound strategy for sure.
Title: Asylum seekers - Moved to Cornwall Ontario
Post by: kratz on August 17, 2017, 15:58:01
CBC.ca (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/rcmp-says-it-has-intercepted-3-800-asylum-seekers-crossing-illegally-into-quebec-since-aug-1-1.4250806)

Quebec is getting the help they requested. Asylum seekers have already started to be moved over to Cornwall Ontario and plans are developing for another tent camp next door, according to the news release.

Quote
New centre, more immigration officers

In order to accommodate the growing number of migrants crossing into Quebec, Federal Transport Minister Marc Garneau and Quebec Immigration Minister Kathleen Weil announced new measures for housing and security Thursday.

A new temporary intake centre will be set up in Cornwall, Ont., to ease the burden on Quebec, which has been housing claimants in centres across Montreal.

Garneau said the Cornwall centre has 300 rooms and that tents can be installed outside the building if necessary.

"This will remove some of the pressure on us," said Weil, referencing the provincial government. She has urged Ottawa to help with additional temporary housing for asylum seekers.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 17, 2017, 16:19:18
Did anyone ever think that there would be a camp of refugees fleeing the United States of America?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 17, 2017, 16:22:34
Haiti is now deemed safe to return to and SURPRISE! they don't want to go back.  Now, as the article notes, they are entering Canada illegally.  What do people expect when the PM says *everyone is welcome!!*. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 17, 2017, 16:38:44
Haiti is now deemed safe to return to and SURPRISE! they don't want to go back.  Now, as the article notes, they are entering Canada illegally.  What do people expect when the PM says *everyone is welcome!!*.

Everyone is welcome.  The legalities have been clarified many times.  This is an act of desperation, and nothing more.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 17, 2017, 16:44:36
Everyone is welcome.  The legalities have been clarified many times.  This is an act of desperation, and nothing more.

From the CBC story:

RCMP says it has intercepted 3,800 asylum seekers crossing illegally into Quebec since Aug. 1

More than 3,800 asylum seekers crossed the border illegally in Quebec during the two weeks spanning Aug. 1 to Aug. 15, the RCMP said Thursday.

The figures were released after RCMP held a technical briefing with the Canada Border Services Agency and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC).

According to the IRCC, the RCMP also intercepted 2,996 asylum seekers crossing illegally into Quebec in July.

Since June 1, the RCMP said that more than 7,000 people have illegally entered Canada.


Yup, the legalities are clear for sure.  If I need money, I can't just go to the bank and take it *in an act of desperation* and everything is cool...


Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 17, 2017, 16:51:27
Canada has some legislation in regards to breaking laws due to necessity (Ie: breaking into a domecile so you don't freeze to death) but I am unsure if that translates to refugees who aren't Canadian citizens. Especially ones who are fleeing the US and not Haiti..are they considered fleeing Haiti by proxy because the US would kick them out? WOULD the US kick them out? I don't know, I will admit I'm not a genius when it comes to this stuff.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 17, 2017, 17:59:46
Canada has some legislation in regards to breaking laws due to necessity (Ie: breaking into a domecile so you don't freeze to death) but I am unsure if that translates to refugees who aren't Canadian citizens. Especially ones who are fleeing the US and not Haiti..are they considered fleeing Haiti by proxy because the US would kick them out? WOULD the US kick them out? I don't know, I will admit I'm not a genius when it comes to this stuff.
these guys will be processed like any other illegal migrant and if the case of other haitians is any clue, more than half will be deported to Haiti.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 18, 2017, 00:36:01
Yup, the legalities are clear for sure.  If I need money, I can't just go to the bank and take it *in an act of desperation* and everything is cool...

In this case (analogies are generally terrible arguments), with those found to have legitimate claims, everything will be cool.  For those found to not, things will not be cool.  They'll be rather warm, as they'll be returned to Haiti.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Loachman on August 18, 2017, 01:58:01
And for those seeking entrance to our Country through legal means, there will be further delays...

Meanwhile, https://www.spencerfernando.com/2017/08/17/poll-majority-canadians-say-trudeau-not-enough-protect-canadas-borders/

POLL: Majority Of Canadians Say Trudeau Not Doing Enough To Protect Canada’s Borders

A new poll by Ipsos/Global shows Canadians are turning against Justin Trudeau’s border policies.

Here are the key poll results:
62% say the Trudeau government doesn’t have a solid plan to respond to the increase in border crossers.
56% say the Trudeau government having to call in the military shows the border issue “is out of control.”
67% believe those crossing the border illegally are doing so in order to skip the legal process.
56% say the government isn’t doing enough to protect the border from “those who want to cause harm to Canada.”

Trudeau government clearly out of step with Canadians

This poll confirms what many of us already knew: Canadians believe our border and laws should be respected. We are a welcoming nation, but that welcome must be on our own terms. There are many people waiting in line and following the rules, and they are being delayed because of those crossing illegally. And as the poll shows, Canadians are concerned that people who may cause harm to the country are crossing the border, and the Trudeau government isn’t doing enough to stop them.

That’s why it’s time for the Trudeau government to stop playing to the international press, and start listening to the voices of Canadians. Our border must be secured, and illegal crossings must be stopped.

Spencer Fernando
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 18, 2017, 11:08:16
Personally, I have a simple solution (which is probably why it wouldn't work in Canada  ;D).

Stop all immigration hearings already scheduled in Canada and bring the tribunal's judges to Montreal. There, hold immediate hearings (most of these "refugees" are Haitians who lived peacefully in the US under temporary visas for the last few years, so they should have all of their papers and proof in order and ready to go) for a few hundreds of them. When the large majority of them are found to NOT be refugees, deport them immediately - but since they are Haitians, deport them to Haiti - not the USA - and publicize that fact heavily in Canada and the US.

I bet you it would stem the flow almost completely, and that a lot of the ones already here would immediately voluntarily withdraw their application to enter Canada and chose to return to the US and take their chances with their current temporary visa holder's status.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Loachman on August 18, 2017, 11:35:49
That is a wildly optimistic hope for any form of speed and/or efficiency in a government endeavour.

And what if our Southern Cousins don't let them back in?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: GAP on August 18, 2017, 12:43:37
Personally, I have a simple solution (which is probably why it wouldn't work in Canada  ;D).

Stop all immigration hearings already scheduled in Canada and bring the tribunal's judges to Montreal. There, hold immediate hearings (most of these "refugees" are Haitians who lived peacefully in the US under temporary visas for the last few years, so they should have all of their papers and proof in order and ready to go) for a few hundreds of them. When the large majority of them are found to NOT be refugees, deport them immediately - but since they are Haitians, deport them to Haiti - not the USA - and publicize that fact heavily in Canada and the US.

I bet you it would stem the flow almost completely, and that a lot of the ones already here would immediately voluntarily withdraw their application to enter Canada and chose to return to the US and take their chances with their current temporary visa holder's status.

The Canadian Government has already said they are returning them to Haiti. Apparently the US won't let them return/deports them.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 18, 2017, 17:08:32
In this case (analogies are generally terrible arguments), with those found to have legitimate claims, everything will be cool.  For those found to not, things will not be cool.  They'll be rather warm, as they'll be returned to Haiti.

Analogies are, sometimes, comparisons that help emphasize a point. In this case, the point being people shouldn't just be able to break a law.  I am a Canadian citizen and serving military member, and when I come back home from serving Canada away I have to have a passport and go thru the process.  Why should people who are coming illegally be allowed to cross in the first place??

IMO they shouldn't, and the US is just smiling as they watch them do it because it is one less problem for them to worry about.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 18, 2017, 17:23:15
Analogies are, sometimes, comparisons that help emphasize a point. In this case, the point being people shouldn't just be able to break a law.  I am a Canadian citizen and serving military member, and when I come back home from serving Canada away I have to have a passport and go thru the process.  Why should people who are coming illegally be allowed to cross in the first place??

IMO they shouldn't, and the US is just smiling as they watch them do it because it is one less problem for them to worry about.

Today, listening to Talk Radio on the matter of the numbers crossing illegally, and how they would have be turned back had they entered at an existing Border Crossing.  Then I wondered why we aren't just loading the illegals onto a bus, drive them to the Border Crossing Point, have CBSA go through the procedure of processing them and then TURN THEM BACK as if they had originally crossed there.  Saves the eleven, and counting, months that it will now take to process the expected 300,000 that will be clogging up the system for the next several years; not to mentions the billions being spent.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 18, 2017, 17:54:53
Once they are in Canada, I doubt the US would take them back.

Don't get me wrong, I am not without compassion for those less fortunate than Canadians are.  BUT...we are a country with, like all countries, limited resources.  We simply can't allow everyone who wants to come here in.  Those that do come have to, or should IMO, have something to bring to the table;  a skill, a trade, something that will make them a benefit the way Canada will benefit them.  They have to have the ability to, at some point and for the long term, pay taxes and contribute to Canadian society in a real, tangible way.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 18, 2017, 20:15:25
So much for treating our soldiers like adults/  :not-again:
The CAF Operation to raise the tent city n Cornwall is dry for our soldiers...not even the two per day allowance.  ::)

[rant] MADD Puritans strike again.[/rant]

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 19, 2017, 10:26:47
So much for treating our soldiers like adults/  :not-again:
The CAF Operation to raise the tent city n Cornwall is dry for our soldiers...not even the two per day allowance.  ::)

The PMCs in the Armoury they are billeted in are none to happy about this, either.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 10:35:37
Is it reserves pulling guard duty on this task or regs?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 19, 2017, 10:44:08
Is it reserves pulling guard duty on this task or regs?
Nobody from the CAF is pulling guard duty.  That is a local law enforcement task, if required.  The asylum seekers have already undergone preliminary screening by the CBSA and are free to come and go as they please as long as they attend their scheduled immigration examinations.

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 10:57:06
Ah right on. I seen pictures of CAF pers putting up tents, I figured they would be manning the camp or something.  I wonder which hotels they will be put up in this winter, I can't see them staying in tents.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 19, 2017, 11:01:14
Ah right on. I seen pictures of CAF pers putting up tents, I figured they would be manning the camp or something.  I wonder which hotels they will be put up in this winter, I can't see them staying in tents.

CAF personnel will be managing and maintaining the Interim Lodging Site (ILS) infrastructure.  That's all.  There is a plan to move the asylum seekers to more permanent accommodations before winter, if required.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 19, 2017, 11:34:05
The PMCs in the Armoury they are billeted in are none to happy about this, either.

The Combined Mess in the Nav Centre is none too happy either.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 19, 2017, 11:38:24
Once they are in Canada, I doubt the US would take them back.

Don't get me wrong, I am not without compassion for those less fortunate than Canadians are.  BUT...we are a country with, like all countries, limited resources.  We simply can't allow everyone who wants to come here in.  Those that do come have to, or should IMO, have something to bring to the table;  a skill, a trade, something that will make them a benefit the way Canada will benefit them.  They have to have the ability to, at some point and for the long term, pay taxes and contribute to Canadian society in a real, tangible way.

Doesn't this fall in line with Trudeau's and Soro's vision of the world?  Bringing down our 'wealth' to raise that of the poorer?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 11:41:56
Doesn't this fall in line with Trudeau's vision of the world?

I got rid of the conspiracy nonsense.  As to this part, no.  No Prime Minister of Canada has ever sought to bring down anyone in Canada.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: PuckChaser on August 19, 2017, 11:50:14
I got rid of the conspiracy nonsense.  As to this part, no.  No Prime Minister of Canada has ever sought to bring down anyone in Canada.

Yes, because "bringing down the rich" doesn't sound as nice as "tax the rich". You can doctor the semantics all you want, but when you raise the tax rates on the rich, you're bringing them down to redistribute the money to the masses.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2585026/trudeaus-tax-hike-on-high-earners-could-backfire-report/ (http://globalnews.ca/news/2585026/trudeaus-tax-hike-on-high-earners-could-backfire-report/)
http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/canada-set-to-propose-closing-tax-loophole-favored-by-doctors/wcm/b5e17b7c-f526-4fef-b702-f70f1f26425e (http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/canada-set-to-propose-closing-tax-loophole-favored-by-doctors/wcm/b5e17b7c-f526-4fef-b702-f70f1f26425e)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-budget-equlity-1.4036031 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-budget-equlity-1.4036031)

I'll also invite you to read the George Soros biographical synopsis here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros) which states:

Quote
He is a well-known supporter of American progressive and American liberal political causes and dispenses his donations through his foundation, the Open Society Foundations.[17] Between 1979 and 2011, Soros donated more than $11 billion to various philanthropic causes;[18][19] by 2017, his donations "on civil initiatives to reduce poverty and increase transparency, and on scholarships and universities around the world" totaled $12 billion.[20]

George's statement is factually correct even though you choose to just willfully ignore it. Just because someone says George Soros doesn't automatically make it a conspiracy theory. When that individual throws around $12B USD to progressive and left leaning political causes, they get a little bit of say in the direction those causes takes.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 19, 2017, 13:33:11
I got rid of the conspiracy nonsense.  As to this part, no.  No Prime Minister of Canada has ever sought to bring down anyone in Canada.

Really?   "He's just not ready."
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 14:15:17
Really?   "He's just not ready."

I'll tell you what.  Canada has the best economy it has at any time in 17 years, and he's remained relatively popular.  He seems like he was ready after all.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 19, 2017, 14:56:03
I'll tell you what.  Canada has the best economy it has at any time in 17 years, and he's remained relatively popular.  He seems like he was ready after all.


Hmmm?  Wonder why you only read Liberal Party propaganda.  I would not say that Ontario, more or less Canada's industrial base, is doing very well with many companies moving SOUTH of the border.  I would suggest that we are still riding the tail end of the wave of the previous Government and now headed into the down trough.  Time will tell.

New regulations and taxes being discussed on small business.  Ontario Hydro Rates.  Cancellation of proposed pipelines.  Illegal migrant issues.  Ridiculous points they want included at NAFTA negotiations.  People are starting to get very pissed at the Liberals and their nonsense.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 15:53:37
Hmmm?  Wonder why you only read Liberal Party propaganda. 

I don't read anything put out by the Liberal party.  I do read information put out by economists:

http://www.bnn.ca/canadian-gdp-tops-estimates-in-may-1.816156

Canada has done better this year than under and year that Harper was in power.  Ontario's economy has mostly recovered from the gloom years.  Many companies continue to move north of the border due to far lower corporate taxes in Canada than in the US (both Liberals and Conservatives have been lowering them for 25 years).  There are no new taxes being discussed on small business - they're simply closing loopholes.  You'll now have to work for the small business to get paid by it, as it should be. Line 3 replacement and expansion, approved by the Liberals, is now being built.  Northern Gateway, cancelled by the Liberals, was never going to meet its 800 conditions anyway.  Illegal migration is generally the fault of the country that the migrants are fleeing, and not the receiving country.  Do you blame Turkey for Iraqi refugees? 

As for the NAFTA negotiations - chapters on gender, climate, and indigenous peoples are included in any modern trade treaty, from CETA to the now dead TPP.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 18:12:09
Quote from: jmt18325
Illegal migration is generally the fault of the country that the migrants are fleeing, and not the receiving country.  Do you blame Turkey for Iraqi refugees? 

Turkey either supporting or turning a blind eye to ISIS probably doesn't exactly help Iraqi refugees. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 18:26:45
Turkey either supporting or turning a blind eye to ISIS probably doesn't exactly help Iraqi refugees.

Well, Canada already ended it's Haitian refugee program, so, in this case, we aren't supporting ISIS.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 18:34:07
Except we're selling weapons and equipment to Saudi Arabia who is also secretly supporting ISIS (according to Hillary Clinton). So we kinda are. But that's off topic  :nod:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 19, 2017, 18:35:55
I'll tell you what.  Canada has the best economy it has at any time in 17 years, and he's remained relatively popular.  He seems like he was ready after all.
That must be why everyone is peachy keen in the resource provinces and the Maritimes.  Cuz the economy is better now than it was before 2014 and before 2008.

 :sarcasm:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 19, 2017, 20:07:16
That must be why everyone is peachy keen in the resource provinces and the Maritimes.  Cuz the economy is better now than it was before 2014 and before 2008.

 :sarcasm:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-07-28/alberta-tops-b-c-to-reclaim-lead-in-canadian-growth-survey

Quote
Alberta’s economy is more than just back on its feet, it’s about to run faster than any other region in Canada.

Gross domestic product in the western province will rise by 2.9 percent this year, according to a Bloomberg survey of economists, up from an April estimate of 2.5 percent. That matches forecasts for neighboring British Columbia, and in 2018 Alberta comes out on top with a 2.4 percent expansion that would be tops among Canada’s 10 provinces.

It’s a huge comeback from Alberta’s last place finish in each of the last two years when oil prices plummeted below $50 a barrel, triggering layoffs and an investment freeze that shrank GDP by about 4 percent. The rebound is another sign Canada may retain its top spot among Group of Seven nations as economic growth diversifies away from consumer spending.


https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalpost.com/news/canada/from-the-doghouse-to-a-powerhouse-quebecs-economy-has-rebounded/wcm/2309f155-c7d5-4617-b95a-d359f227bafe/amp

Quote
Last month, Standard & Poor’s announced that it was raising Quebec’s credit rating from A-plus, to AA-minus, the highest rating the province has enjoyed since 1993, and again, better than Ontario’s. 

The province’s economic growth exceeded projections in the first quarter of 2017, with gross domestic product increasing 1.1 per cent over the first three months, outpacing Canada as a whole. That growth meant higher tax-revenues for the provincial government, and last month Leitao announced that Quebec had ended the 2016-17 fiscal year with a $4.5 billion surplus — nearly twice what had been forecast in his March 28 budget.

Seems alright to me.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 19, 2017, 20:13:00
Over 4000 KMs and we argue how much better the economy is.   [:D  If we could all commute those KMs to fill the high paying jobs daily.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 19, 2017, 20:15:24
I'll tell you what.  Canada has the best economy it has at any time in 17 years, and he's remained relatively popular.  He seems like he was ready after all.

Tell you what.  Why don't I remind you what it was you said, and what I was replying to...

...No Prime Minister of Canada has ever sought to bring down anyone in Canada.

Does that help you understand my reply to your statement any better?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 19, 2017, 20:22:14
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-07-28/alberta-tops-b-c-to-reclaim-lead-in-canadian-growth-survey

https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalpost.com/news/canada/from-the-doghouse-to-a-powerhouse-quebecs-economy-has-rebounded/wcm/2309f155-c7d5-4617-b95a-d359f227bafe/amp
 Seems alright to me.

Really?  The folks I know in the resource industry might have another opinion.  As might some of the other resource provinces.  There's more than just one.  And there's still the Maritimes.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 20:34:42
Really?  The folks I know in the resource industry might have another opinion.  As might some of the other resource provinces.  There's more than just one.  And there's still the Maritimes.

Good for them - overall, growth is higher than at any other time since the year 2000. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 20:34:54
Really?  The folks I know in the resource industry might have another opinion.  As might some of the other resource provinces.  There's more than just one.  And there's still the Maritimes.

If it's true and accurate then that's pretty awesome.

Between Clinton's chances of winning at 99% and our media fawning over the PM s selfies and staged photo ops infront of mathematical calculations I'm a bit slow to trust online articles.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 19, 2017, 20:50:40
Really?  The folks I know in the resource industry might have another opinion.  As might some of the other resource provinces.  There's more than just one.  And there's still the Maritimes.
he's agreed to pipelines, and he cannot control the global price of oil.

Despite that, Alberta looks like they will be rebounding shortly.

As for the Maritimes, they gave been a economic basket case for what, the last 5 prime ministers?

Tall order to ask trudeau to personally fix those two issues.

As for the Canadian economy on a whole, Ontario is doing decently, Quebec isn't a economic basket case and Albert a is looking like they will adjust to 50 dollar oil again and will once again lead Canada in growth.

Not bad.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 19, 2017, 21:04:05
Good for them - overall, growth is higher than at any other time since the year 2000.

You forgot your sarcasm emogi.  Oh wait, you were serious. 

For the folks I know,  things are not good.  The job prospects I had in the patch are gone and not to return. Newfoundland is hurting, not booming anymore.  Not seeing really good times back home in NS either.

Pipelines, yeah... I doubt it will come to anything.  You're correct, Altair, no blame can be laid on any PMs feet about the price of oil.  Most of the big projects in Alberta are gone, the leases returned and doubtful things will swing back that far again.

Basket case history or not, the Maritimes are hurting and your ooooh la la everythings fine under the sun in Canada isn't necessarily so for all.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 19, 2017, 21:19:07
Good for them - overall, growth is higher than at any other time since the year 2000.


Before stating random general info, please provide company financials to back up your claims.

My investments know better.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 21:51:44
I don't really care about your investments.  Real GDP grew at an annualized figure of 4.6% last quarter.  I'm serious, because that's the truth.  You guys can make up scenarios all you want - it doesn't change that reality.

It also doesn't change the reality for the people crossing the border illegally.  They're not here because of any Trudeau tweet.  They're here because of someone else whose name happens to start with a T.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 19, 2017, 21:57:11
.....  They're not here because of any Trudeau tweet.  They're here because of someone else whose name happens to start with a T.

If you don't think that they are here because of Trudeau's tweets and statements, you are plain outright foolish.  It doesn't matter what they may think the President of the US may do; it is what our Prime Minister has already done....OPEN THE GATES to one and all.  If you can't understand that half of the equation, then I can only shake my head in disbelief.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 19, 2017, 22:01:10
They are here because they can get into Canada right now easier than I can with a green passport.  Not because of Trump, only because we aren't stopping them from coming in.  I can't blame the neighbor for his dog being in my backyard if I left my gate open.  That the dog was running around is a separate issue, but the reason it ended up in my yard is my issue.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Remius on August 19, 2017, 22:03:25
Not seeing really good times back home in NS either.


Sidebar.  They are going to open a new coal mine.  Nothing major but jobs are jobs.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/donkin-coal-mine-cape-breton-1.4003452
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 19, 2017, 22:08:33
Sure, and IKEA has hired for their new store at Dartmouth Crossing too.  Why don't we throw in the Bluenose is finally sailing too while we're at it.  That's meant a job or two too, no doubt.  (which might  help offset the end of millions spent on that white elephant)...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 22:24:49
If you don't think that they are here because of Trudeau's tweets and statements, you are plain outright foolish.  It doesn't matter what they may think the President of the US may do; it is what our Prime Minister has already done....OPEN THE GATES to one and all.  If you can't understand that half of the equation, then I can only shake my head in disbelief.

No rules have been changed.  Nothing about the way this is or would have been handled has changed.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 22:25:50
They are here because they can get into Canada right now easier than I can with a green passport.

The only people who can stop that are the Americans on their side of the border.  There's nothing we can do to stop them from illegally crossing, other than arresting them upon entry, which we already are.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 19, 2017, 22:29:59
We could build a wall...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 19, 2017, 23:04:25
We could build a wall...

That is the only other solution - a solution, given the costs of the wall on the southern US border, that would run into the hundreds of billions.  I'd just rather hire more cops and immigration investigators and get these people sorted more quickly.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 19, 2017, 23:34:29
That is the only other solution - a solution, given the costs of the wall on the southern US border, that would run into the hundreds of billions.  I'd just rather hire more cops and immigration investigators and get these people sorted more quickly.
yup.

Bring them in, arrest them, let them go, sort them out, send half of them to Haiti.

Hire more staff if needed to speed the process up.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Harris on August 20, 2017, 08:21:49
Send all of them back to Haiti.  Then tell them to get in line like everybody else if they want to return.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 20, 2017, 09:47:23
We could build a wall...

We should build it out of snow and ice so it'll be a seasonal work project.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 20, 2017, 10:17:35
We should build it out of snow and ice so it'll be a seasonal work project.

Then, the workers can go on poggy between seasons.  The perfect Canadian project.  ;D
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 20, 2017, 11:08:35
Send all of them back to Haiti.  Then tell them to get in line like everybody else if they want to return.

Doesn't work that way. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 20, 2017, 11:20:49
The only people who can stop that are the Americans on their side of the border.  There's nothing we can do to stop them from illegally crossing, other than arresting them upon entry, which we already are.

Are you serious?  Seriously; are you serious?

Why would the Americans stop people (not American citizens) from leaving the US?

What can we do to stop illegal crossings?  Do just that.....MAKE IT ILLEGAL and arrest them.  There is no reason for them to be fleeing either the US or Haiti other than ECONOMIC.  That does not qualify them as refugees.....That makes them Economic Migrants. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 20, 2017, 12:17:03
No rules have been changed.  Nothing about the way this is or would have been handled has changed.

There you go with your hyperbole again.  Nothing?  Really?

(https://Milnet.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FInternational%2Fus-immigration-canada-2-rt-jt-170812_4x3_992.jpg&hash=a02cc1b6119401b9499198b7979a6a7a)

I don't recall as a small child seeing RCMP with tents processing refugees along the US-Canada border at points other than official border crossing sites.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 20, 2017, 13:12:31
What can we do to stop illegal crossings?  Do just that.....MAKE IT ILLEGAL and arrest them.

Uhh, what do you think happens now?  That's exactly what happens.

There you go with your hyperbole again.  Nothing?  Really?

What has changed is the President.  When Obama and Trudeau were occupying office at the same time, you didn't see this. 

Nothing in the Canadian government response thus far would be different is Harper were still in office, other than rhetoric.  They cross the border, and we have to deal with it in the proper legal way.  That's what's being done right now.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Ludoc on August 20, 2017, 13:34:38
We should build it out of snow and ice so it'll be a seasonal work project.
But then we will have to switch to all black uniforms...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 20, 2017, 13:36:27
Uhh, what do you think happens now?  That's exactly what happens.

What has changed is the President.  When Obama and Trudeau were occupying office at the same time, you didn't see this. 

Nothing in the Canadian government response thus far would be different is Harper were still in office, other than rhetoric.  They cross the border, and we have to deal with it in the proper legal way.  That's what's being done right now.

Harper also wouldn't have said that, quite literally, everyone was welcome to come into Canada...so there's that.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 20, 2017, 13:54:12
Harper also wouldn't have said that, quite literally, everyone was welcome to come into Canada...so there's that.

Everyone is welcome - some conditions may apply.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 20, 2017, 14:45:36
Are you serious?  Seriously; are you serious?

Why would the Americans stop people (not American citizens) from leaving the US?

What can we do to stop illegal crossings?  Do just that.....MAKE IT ILLEGAL and arrest them.  There is no reason for them to be fleeing either the US or Haiti other than ECONOMIC.  That does not qualify them as refugees.....That makes them Economic Migrants.
they are arrested.

They are then released and get due process like any lawbreakers.

A lot of them will be sent back to Haiti, but those with legitimate claims will be allowed to stay as that's how it works under international law.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Kat Stevens on August 20, 2017, 15:19:07
they are arrested.

They are then released and get due process like any lawbreakers.

A lot of them will be sent back to Haiti, but those with legitimate claims will be allowed to stay as that's how it works under international law.

And a lot of them will disappear into the Haitian community, never to be seen again.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 20, 2017, 16:26:09
...
There you go with your hyperbole again.  Nothing?  Really?

What has changed is the President.  When Obama and Trudeau were occupying office at the same time, you didn't see this. 

Nothing in the Canadian government response thus far would be different is Harper were still in office, other than rhetoric.  They cross the border, and we have to deal with it in the proper legal way.  That's what's being done right now.

...other than the new greeting "arrest" centres set up along the border.

Nice redirect, as always.  Throw out a hyperbolic statement, then redirect when you are challenged on the hyperbole.  For others that's wrong, but for you it's okay?

Things have significantly changed, including how the Canadian Government handles the situation.

Did Trump set up this border stations and man them with RCMP? Perhaps in your world, but not in most's minds.

Regards,
G2G
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Altair on August 20, 2017, 18:34:15
And a lot of them will disappear into the Haitian community, never to be seen again.
and you can offer proof of this happening?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 20, 2017, 19:39:31
and you can offer proof of this happening?

I seriously don't know why you asked this question.  It is a known fact, published in the MSM many times over the last few decades, of such instances taking place with not just Haitians, but all such "refugee claimants".   If you need to ask this question, it sounds more like you are trolling than actually contributing.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 20, 2017, 19:49:15
Asking for specific sources is valid.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Remius on August 20, 2017, 20:49:03
Asking for specific sources is valid.

Agreed.

Not specific to Haitians but...

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2017/03/18/22711503.html
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 20, 2017, 21:57:25
Agreed.

Not specific to Haitians but...

http://cnews.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2017/03/18/22711503.html

The enforcement system breaks down when provincial and municipal police forces follow the lead of the TPS and don't ask about a person's immigration status during interactions, when warranted by reasonable and probable grounds.  What this does is then leave the identification and apprehension of persons with immigration warrants solely in the hands of the CBSA, an agency that doesn't patrol urban Canada and focuses it's resources, by necessity, on the periphery (i.e the border) of Canada.  This leads to a situation where the vast number of those with immigration warrant go undetected unless involved in another crime where their status as "wanted" is then discovered during the investigation.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: ModlrMike on August 21, 2017, 05:24:39
Maybe it's time for a Canadian version of I.C.E?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 12:57:52
Did Trump set up this border stations and man them with RCMP? Perhaps in your world, but not in most's minds.

Do you think that Harper wouldn't have had the RCMP at the border to meet the illegal crossers?  There's no alternative, other than letting them cross unopposed.  Nothing would have been different under Harper (aside from language) and I stick by that assertion.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 12:58:14
Maybe it's time for a Canadian version of I.C.E?

We have that - it's called the RCMP.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 21, 2017, 13:55:01
It's interesting reading up on the immigration process:

CBSA: Arrests, detentions and removals -  Removal from Canada (http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/rem-ren-eng.html)

Government of Canada: Enforcement and violations (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/enforcement/index.asp)

Government of Canada: Refugees and asylum (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/index.asp)

Government of Canada: Find out if you’re eligible – Refugee status from inside Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/inside/apply-who.asp)

Quote
[/Your refugee claim may not be eligible to be referred to the IRB if you:
•have been recognized as a Convention refugee by another country that you can return to.
•have already been granted protected person status in Canada.
•arrived via the Canada-United States border.
•are not admissible to Canada on security grounds, or because of criminal activity or human rights violations.
•made a previous refugee claim that was not found eligible.
•made a previous refugee claim that was rejected by the IRB.
•abandoned or withdrew a previous refugee claim.

The IRB website has more about making an asylum claim in Canada.
quote]
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: ModlrMike on August 21, 2017, 13:59:23
We have that - it's called the RCMP.

The RCMP have a specific immigration control mandate? Someone should tell them they're operating outside their arcs.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 21, 2017, 15:05:32
The only people who can stop that are the Americans on their side of the border.  There's nothing we can do to stop them from illegally crossing, other than arresting them upon entry, which we already are.

Maybe I am ignorant of laws on this, but how can the Americans stop them from leaving?  If I try to cross the border at Houlton from Woodstock (which I have), the only thing really stopping me is the US Border folks...I am trying to get into the US, not out of Canada.  If the US doesn't let me in...guess what?  I don't get in!  Seems pretty simple to me.

There is nothing we can do to stop them from illegally entering Canada...what?  What do we have CBSA for then?  We stop them at the border crossing and process them like they do at airports, etc.  They turn people away who can't enter Canada for various reasons.  So unless I am missing something, we (Canada) are knowingly letting people enter our country, illegally, from the US.   ???
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: kratz on August 21, 2017, 15:15:49
There is nothing we can do to stop them from illegally entering Canada...what?  What do we have CBSA for then? We stop them at the border crossing and process them like they do at airports, etc.  They turn people away who can't enter Canada for various reasons.  So unless I am missing something, we (Canada) are knowingly letting people enter our country, illegally, from the US.   ???



This quote (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-us-border-illegal-border-crossings-1.3995768) provides an answer to one of your questions:

Quote
[/What happens once they cross?

The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) is in charge of enforcing Canadian legislation at designated ports of entry, while the RCMP are responsible for enforcing the law between ports of entry.

Anyone who is detected by the RCMP outside official points of entry will be warned they are entering the country illegally and advised of the nearest official border crossing point.
quote]
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Rifleman62 on August 21, 2017, 15:17:26
Returning to Canada around 2006/7 or so, we were stopped by a Homeland Security patrol car about 200 meters South of the border. They asked questions, looked in the trunk and the rest of the vehicle. Not really a search. Also a Homeland Security helicopter was flying North along I-29. Shortly after we were stopped.

I think the US could stop the flow, but they don't want to. In a way it resolves some of their problems and dumps it on Canada.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 15:23:14
Maybe I am ignorant of laws on this, but how can the Americans stop them from leaving?  If I try to cross the border at Houlton from Woodstock (which I have), the only thing really stopping me is the US Border folks...I am trying to get into the US, not out of Canada.  If the US doesn't let me in...guess what?  I don't get in!  Seems pretty simple to me.

The US has border zones set up within ~80 miles of their border.  They can stop you entering or leaving, and detain you.

The US couldn't do any more to stop you from entering illegally than Canada has done.  They would arrest you on entry, and return you to Canada.  The people entering illegally in the cases we're talking about don't usually have any legal status in the US.  We can't simply turn them around because of that.  The Americans don't want them and won't take them.

Quote
There is nothing we can do to stop them from illegally entering Canada...what?

We can't enforce Canadian law on the US side of the border, and we can't turn them around as the US won't take them back - they aren't Americans.  We can arrest and deport them, unless of course they request asylum.  As the Safe Third Country Agreement doesn't apply here, we have to process and have no grounds to refuse.

Quote
What do we have CBSA for then?

The CBSA work only at official border crossings. The RCMP do their part (advise, warn, and arrest) and then hand them over the CBSA for immigration processing.  At those crossings they can deny entry to Americans or hold people from other countries for return to the US (if they'll take them - the US took one of the people found with child porn and charged him, as it was at an official border crossing and they decided to take him).  If the US won't take them back, we can deport them to their country of origin (if it is deemed a safe country), or have them enter our court system by charging them.

It's not as simple as so many people want to believe.

I think the US could stop the flow, but they don't want to. In a way it resolves some of their problems and dumps it on Canada.

Exactly - all of the people are being searched by the US before illegally crossing.  They're happy to let them leave. 

There are a few people, according to the articles, that have turned around after being told by the RCMP that what they're doing is illegal.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 15:50:23
Just in from the Immigration Minister and Public Safety Minister (live right now) - they have added 20 Refugee officers to Montreal this week, and will add 10 more next week.  They will also add a team to Cornwall.  The current backlog is 5 months for processing, but it should come down with these changes.  They have instructed consular officials in the US to dispel myths about the refugee process in Canada.  Those found ineligible for refugee status will be removed, and people are being told that.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 21, 2017, 17:07:42
It's interesting reading up on the immigration process:

CBSA: Arrests, detentions and removals -  Removal from Canada (http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/rem-ren-eng.html)

Government of Canada: Enforcement and violations (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/enforcement/index.asp)

Government of Canada: Refugees and asylum (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/index.asp)

Government of Canada: Find out if you’re eligible – Refugee status from inside Canada (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/inside/apply-who.asp)

Quote
[/Your refugee claim may not be eligible to be referred to the IRB if you:
•have been recognized as a Convention refugee by another country that you can return to.
•have already been granted protected person status in Canada.
•arrived via the Canada-United States border.
•are not admissible to Canada on security grounds, or because of criminal activity or human rights violations.
•made a previous refugee claim that was not found eligible.
•made a previous refugee claim that was rejected by the IRB.
•abandoned or withdrew a previous refugee claim.

The IRB website has more about making an asylum claim in Canada.
quote]

Good points.

First off, these are not refugees, but migrants, illegally entering Canada from a Safe Third Country.

Second, they don't qualify for asylum according to any of the criteria laid out in any of the above links provided by Kratz, nor links on those links.

Canada and the US have almost identical policies reference the Haitians, and both consider Haiti to be a "Safe Country".  In fact the US had given the Haitians a longer period of time to remain in the US than Canada had for those who came to Canada  (also found within the links that Kratz posted).

Kratz also posted this, which would indicate that all these "illegals"  (NOT IRREGULAR FFS) should be transported to an official border crossing:

Quote
Anyone who is detected by the RCMP outside official points of entry will be warned they are entering the country illegally and advised of the nearest official border crossing point.

This should be the method by which they are either granted access or sent packing back the way whence they came.  Setting up a myriad of hostels for them and providing medical treatment, food and shelter of hundreds of thousands of illegals is frankly going to cost the Canadian tax payer BILLIONS, just to be added to the Trudeau Liberals INDEBTEDNESS.  Can Canada really handle this?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 17:21:40
Repeating the same false points doesn't make them correct.  They are not claiming asylum via the Canada US border.  That is only true if they arrive at the actual border point.  Read the Safe Third Country Agreement.

Once they illegally cross, they are arrested - inside of Canada.  At that point, their claim must be processed.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 21, 2017, 17:22:48
The RCMP have a specific immigration control mandate? Someone should tell them they're operating outside their arcs.

I missed this one - the RCMP is responsible for the security of the Canadian border.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 22, 2017, 17:55:57
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
It’s time we really took a look at Trudeau’s political philosophy (http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/08/21/its-time-we-really-took-a-look-at-trudeaus-political-philosophy)
By Anthony Furey, Postmedia Network
First posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 03:30 PM EDT | Updated: Monday, August 21, 2017 03:49 PM EDT

Does Justin Trudeau support open borders? I can’t answer that question. Neither can most Canadians, including his colleagues in the Liberal caucus. I’m guessing only his closest friends can, if that.

This past weekend the prime minister once again sidestepped taking a firm stance against the illegal border crossings that have become precipitously worse in recent weeks.

Social service agencies are strained, regular Canadians are losing their faith in the system and we now have a de facto open border.

View the latest Government of Canada asylum claimant stats here (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/asylum-claims-made-in-canada.asp)

You’d think this mounting crisis would inspire strong words from the politician tasked with maintaining the integrity of the nation. Far from it.

“Canada is an open and welcoming country, but let me be clear — we are also a country of laws,” Trudeau said in Montreal on Sunday.

These were his toughest words so far yet still they never actually stated the basics: That these crossings are illegal and should not be happening.

Michelle Rempel, the Conservative critic on the file, recommended a number of social media postings Trudeau could make to set the record straight, like: “If you illegally enter Canada, you will be arrested and detained by the RCMP” and “I apologize for my #WelcomeToCanada tweet which may have made you think otherwise.”

[Tweet on LINK (http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/08/21/its-time-we-really-took-a-look-at-trudeaus-political-philosophy).]

Rempel’s right. But I don’t think it’s going to happen. Trudeau’s not shy about speaking up on issues when he wants to and believes it’s the right thing to do.

It looks like he just doesn’t want to this time. And why is this?

It’s almost an absurd question to be asking: Does the leader of the federal government care about the enforcement of the federal borders? But based on his troubling statements we’ve got to ask it.

[Tweet on LINK (http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/08/21/its-time-we-really-took-a-look-at-trudeaus-political-philosophy).]

And the very fact we do is a harsh reminder about just how poorly vetted Trudeau was back during the last election.

Politicos should ask themselves this: Just what exactly does this guy believe? I’ve followed him in great detail since the 2013 leadership race and really couldn’t tell you.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHibyB5V0AIMUrs.jpg)

[Tweet on LINK (http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/08/21/its-time-we-really-took-a-look-at-trudeaus-political-philosophy).]

The 2006 Liberal leadership, by contrast, was covered inside and out. By the end of it there was little we didn’t know about Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae, so thoroughly chronicled and vetted their lives and perspectives were.

We learned who their college roommates were (each other!). We even learned how they fit into Isaiah Berlin’s fox and the hedgehog paradigm (long story).

They gave extensive speeches on public policy issues. They’d written a number of books and papers on sundry issues. Rae had a long political career to draw on and Ignatieff had his academic work.

They didn't just come out of nowhere. You knew what you were getting with them.

Meanwhile, Trudeau seemingly drifted through life before becoming an MP in 2008, leaving few breadcrumbs to tell us what serious thoughts he had, if any.

And even then, once in the House of Commons, he failed to distinguish himself on any committees or by presenting robust private members’ bills. He had no history of giving keynote speeches at think tanks and associations, as most leadership-calibre politicians do.

So, sure, he’s the leader of something called the Liberals and, yes, he’s said a few times he’s a fan of Wilfrid Laurier. But that’s not really a window into a man’s mind.

Trudeau’s political philosophy appears more in line with the SJW blogger contingent than the socially liberal, fiscally conservative outlook of the Chretien/Martin-era that precedes him.

Maybe the prime minister does support open borders. And that would be a big problem. Too bad we didn’t ask him tough questions like this before he got into office.



Remember:  Canada was well ahead of Trump when it declared 4 Aug 2016 was the last date that Haitian refugees could declare Residency in Canada or be deported.

Tweets and more on LINK (http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/08/21/its-time-we-really-took-a-look-at-trudeaus-political-philosophy).
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Loachman on August 22, 2017, 23:49:45
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/450712/justin-trudeau-illegal-refugee-crackdown

Trudeau Cracks Down on Illegal Immigration

by Philip H. DeVoe August 22, 2017 4:42 PM

After reminding the world that Canada is “a country of laws,” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced the nation will no longer be ignoring refugees who enter the country illegally. Faced with a rash of border crossings from the U.S. and growing criticism of his quixotic approach to border control, Trudeau’s decision marks a major turning-point from his campaign.

Evidently, Trudeau is recognizing what any head of state who campaigns for radically loose immigration policies must at some point: Opening borders poses serious problems, both practical and political. Angela Merkel is facing pressure to accept an upper limit of refugees in Germany, and many see Britain’s exit from the European Union as a rebellion against the EU’s more liberal refugee policy.

Canada’s refugee problem has grown exponentially in the past few months. In all of 2015, only 2,900 crossed over the U.S. border into Quebec illegally. Since July 1 of this year, that number has reached 6,800. Over half of those account for the first two weeks of August alone. A large number of these have fled the U.S. in fear of Donald Trump’s aggressive stance on illegal immigration and his proposal to make legal immigration a more exclusive process. Trudeau has not been vague on social media in his criticism of Trump’s border control policies, tweeting in January that Canada welcomes all, because “diversity is our strength.”

Enforcement is enforcement, however, and no progressive message of inclusion could save Trudeau from having to uphold his country’s laws. He informed the refugees on Sunday that they would be expected to go through the country’s “rigorous” screening process, reminding them that illegal crossing doesn’t allow them to circumvent existing laws.

This shouldn’t surprise. Canada’s process is one of the most rigorous in the world. Refugees aside, those who wish to immigrate to Canada must contend with a merit-based system similar to the one Trump proposed earlier this month. Skilled labor, points for French- and English-language proficiency, and high levels of education are all pre-requisites. As Trudeau is discovering, tone does not an immigration policy make.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: ModlrMike on August 23, 2017, 00:08:05
Yet strangely anyone else who expressed the same sentiments was suddenly a racist.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 23, 2017, 00:22:36
That article was pretty slanted.  Nothing has changed, other than language.  That changed due to public perception.  Canada is just as open (and closed) as it was a few hours ago.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 23, 2017, 11:19:18
...other than setting up RCMP greeting centres along the border where there are aren't any official border crossing stations manned by CBSA officers...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 23, 2017, 12:00:17
...other than setting up RCMP greeting centres along the border where there are aren't any official border crossing stations manned by CBSA officers...

Said 'greeting centres' are where every person crossing illegally is arrested, given their charter rights, and subjected to an interview for a number of purposes related to our national security and public safety, and the integrity of our immigration system. Short of summarily shooting them when they cross the border, I don't know what else you propose. Canada is constrained by its laws, and the law in this case dictates that illegal entrants will be arrested and detained. The fact that it has become necessary to do so wholesale and with the aid of some infrastructure does not change the law on the matter. I'm not sure what different approach you would suggest RCMP and CBSA take? We as a country have no right to turn around and dump them back in the U.S. without American permission- and they would just come right back anyway.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 23, 2017, 12:03:54
Said 'greeting centres' are where every person crossing illegally is arrested, given their charter rights, and subjected to an interview for a number of purposes related to our national security and public safety, and the integrity of our immigration system. Short of summarily shooting them when they cross the border, I don't know what else you propose. Canada is constrained by its laws, and the law in this case dictates that illegal entrants will be arrested and detained. The fact that it has become necessary to do so wholesale and with the aid of some infrastructure does not change the law on the matter. I'm not sure what different approach you would suggest RCMP and CBSA take? We as a country have no right to turn around and dump them back in the U.S. without American permission- and they would just come right back anyway.

Exactly - we can not ignore our own laws and the agreed upon norms and laws of the international community just because we happen to not like a situation.  This situation is going on around the world right now (largest mass migration since WWII) orders of magnitude higher.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: GAP on August 23, 2017, 12:16:22
But we can make a big unapologetic deal of deporting a good chunk of them back to Haiti.

That, more than anything else will send a vibrant loud message that you are just speeding up your deportation to Haiti if you come to Canada
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 23, 2017, 13:04:54
If that is what due process dictates be done, then yes we can. But that due process has to be allowed to happen. That's what upholding the rule of law in a democratic nation means. We don't get to always like the short term result.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Kat Stevens on August 23, 2017, 13:09:42
Rule of law? They have unlawfully entered the country at an unlawful border crossing from a lawfully safe country. Straight on to bluebird busses, straight to the airport, and straight back home.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 23, 2017, 13:13:22
Rule of law? They have unlawfully entered the country at an unlawful border crossing from a lawfully safe country. Straight on to bluebird busses, straight to the airport, and straight back home.

That's not what Canadian Law states, that's not what the Safe Third Country Agreement states, and that's not what international law states. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 23, 2017, 13:37:44
Said 'greeting centres' are where every person crossing illegally is arrested, given their charter rights, and subjected to an interview for a number of purposes related to our national security and public safety, and the integrity of our immigration system. Short of summarily shooting them when they cross the border, I don't know what else you propose. Canada is constrained by its laws, and the law in this case dictates that illegal entrants will be arrested and detained. The fact that it has become necessary to do so wholesale and with the aid of some infrastructure does not change the law on the matter. I'm not sure what different approach you would suggest RCMP and CBSA take? We as a country have no right to turn around and dump them back in the U.S. without American permission- and they would just come right back anyway.

Brihard, absolutely no issue at all with the RCMP conducting the processing of illegal entrants who have chosen to not enter legally at a CBSA-controlled border crossing point-of-entry -- in fact, the opposite, they are conducting their duties aptly, I would say.  That said, and from a level higher than the black-shirts, it appears that the establishment of significant semi-permanent presences by the RCMP messages, at the very least to the illegal entrants, implies a level of acceptability to their crossing.  That and "less than emphatic" Government messaging about illegality of the crossing shouldn't make the numbers of crossings come as any real surprise.

Regards
G2G
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 23, 2017, 13:44:54
That and "less than emphatic" Government messaging about illegality of the crossing shouldn't make the numbers of crossings come as any real surprise.

Trudeau has repeatedly said that it's illegal.  Hussen and Goodale have gone further.  They're even putting out messages from MPs and diplomatic staff in Creole to make it clear.  This is a problem of US creation.  They could stop it, if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: MARS on August 23, 2017, 14:04:05
Trudeau has repeatedly said that it's illegal.  Hussen and Goodale have gone further.  They're even putting out messages from MPs and diplomatic staff in Creole to make it clear.  This is a problem of US creation.  They could stop it, if they wanted to.

An opinion piece about how the PM could step up even a little bit more in his messaging, in the same vein that he made his 'always a place' message

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/myth-refugees-canada-trudeau-1.4257696
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 23, 2017, 14:42:16
Quote from: jmt18325
This is a problem of US creation. 

Quote
"Regardless of who you are or where you come from, there’s always a place for you in Canada."

Seems like a pretty straight forward invitation.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 23, 2017, 15:02:04
Seems like a pretty straight forward invitation.

Yes, in fairness, he should have worded that better, and I'm sure that plays into it a bit.  He was attempting to contrast himself and Trump.  Maybe it's best not to do that in 140 characters.  Everyone is welcome, with a great many caveats. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 23, 2017, 15:04:36
Yes, in fairness, he should have worded that better, and I'm sure that plays into it a bit.  He was attempting to contrast himself and Trump.  Maybe it's best not to do that in 140 characters.  Everyone is welcome, with a great many caveats.

Ah, the "unspoken, yet clearly understood by all" type of statement.  Got it.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: MARS on August 23, 2017, 15:20:08
He was attempting to contrast himself and Trump. 

I agree that was his likely intent, however he ended up pulling a move right out of Mr. Trump's playbook: by design, he made a vastly oversimplified pronouncement on a complicated policy issue.  The actual facts and details of the issue would have just tarnished the whole announcement.

Maybe it's best not to do that in 140 characters.

Maybe not, but the LPC are geniuses at messaging.  It was no accident to use Twitter - and really only twitter, for this, I think
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 23, 2017, 17:33:29
He was attempting to contrast himself and Trump.
Just like the CAFs lame "transgendered soldiers welcome!" tweet after Trumps update on the US Military.



Even everyone, with caveats doesn't really jive IMO. But I understand what you're saying.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 23, 2017, 18:45:29
Well, he is just as daft in more than 140 characters.

I just watched his press conference Held in Montreal and dealing specifically with the illegal entry crisis.

First, you wouldn't know there is a crisis by listening to him, it's more like: "Oh! We are experiencing a greater than anticipated number of immigration claims, but fear not Canadians, our processes and legal standards will be respected and in the mean time we will do everything to make those people making a claim comfortable, even get them early work permits so they can stop depending on the rest of us."

Second: His very first line in his very first statement - which he repeated in no less than three other statements or answers: "Canada is an open and welcoming country. Canadians hold this as value because we are secure and confident in our immigration rules and standards and trust that the system works." To paraphrase the rest: We, the multi-government work group are working hard to make the situation as easy and quick as possible and are confident that the rules and standards for immigration in place will be fully respected, as we are a country of rule of law.

Well, here's my problem: We don't have an immigration problem, we have an illegal entry into Canada problem. That's what Canadians want the PM to "get" and proceed on.

We live by the rule of law? Fine. The legal process to immigrate to Canada starts with an application to that effect made at a Canadian embassy or consulate in the country of the immigrant. It is not started at a border crossing and even less after crossing illegally outside of ports of entry. BTW, an actual Canadian who would enter back into Canada somewhere else than at a port of entry would be not only arrested, but detained in jail, brought to a judge to decide if release pending trial is appropriate and, upon being found guilty, sentenced to either a fine or jail time. Why not the same for all these illegal border crosser?

Also, it is important to distinguish Refugees and Asylum seekers. Refugees are fleeing a general situation without specific application to them personally: they flee a war zone or a devastated region or  famine area, etc. There is no famine or war in the US. Some of the illegals (I'll call them that from now on) are refugees from the devastation of the Haiti earthquake, but they have already been dealt with on that basis by a safe country under international law, the USA, who is from then on responsible for them until the devastation is overcome. This removes them from the ranks of refugees under said international law and they cannot make any further claim of refugee status in another country. Canada currently considers that there is no situation in Haiti that requires granting refugee status to its citizens.

The second category is Asylum seekers. People can seek asylum if there are circumstances specific to them personally that forces them to "escape" from their country for personal security reasons, such as receipt of death threats or being the object of persecution on various political, human rights or religious grounds. It does not apply to someone merely facing prosecution for commission of a crime in a country that otherwise recognizes the rule of law and provides the fundamental legal protections to all accused. The USA is one such country. In international law, asylum seekers should normally claim asylum in the first safe country they enter. If they do not do so, they can make their claim in another country. But no claim can be made anywhere AFTER a first such claim has been made in a safe country , wether it has been accepted or rejected.  International law does not recognize the shopping of asylum venue. Asylum seeking is the matter that is the object of the current Agreement between Canada and the US. Basically, you will not be let in at a border crossing if you seek entry to Canada as asylum seeker from the US.

So three possibilities exist when these Illegals come into Canada: (1) They wish to immigrate here, and don't claim asylum or refugee status: It's illegal, you are jumping queue, return them to either the US or, if the US won't have them, to their country of origin (this is whereto CAF can help: bus them to Saint-Hubert, stick them in the back of a Herky-bird and fly them home). (2) They claim refugee status: They came from the US and if they have papers from the US they are to be returned there immediately, otherwise, just by knowing where they are from (such as Haiti), the border personnel knows immediately if we recognize any such status or not - most likely not and again turn them back immediately. (3) they make an asylum protection demand: These are the only ones to be further investigated, really, but even then, an immediate check can and should be made with US authorities to see if they have ever made such claim while in the USA. If so, it's an immediate rejection here in Canada and, well by now you know what I think should be done.

All in all, everything exists for quick, legal and fair processing of this influx with the result that Canadians know to be the right one here: the rejection of the majority of these illegal entry seekers. By treating this as an immigration abnormal influx, the PM and his government, which claims that we are a country that follows the rule of law, is actually telling Canadians, and foreigners seeking the right to immigrate here legally ( and who will now have to await extra months if not years of delay in the processing of their claim because of these queue jumpers) that actually, we don't care, just get here any way you want and screw the law.
 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on August 23, 2017, 19:14:49
Well, he is just as daft in more than 140 characters.

I just watched his press conference Held in Montreal and dealing specifically with the illegal entry crisis.

First, you wouldn't know there is a crisis by listening to him, it's more like: "Oh! We are experiencing a greater than anticipated number of immigration claims, but fear not Canadians, our processes and legal standards will be respected and in the mean time we will do everything to make those people making a claim comfortable, even get them early work permits so they can stop depending on the rest of us."

Second: His very first line in his very first statement - which he repeated in no less than three other statements or answers: "Canada is an open and welcoming country. Canadians hold this as value because we are secure and confident in our immigration rules and standards and trust that the system works." To paraphrase the rest: We, the multi-government work group are working hard to make the situation as easy and quick as possible and are confident that the rules and standards for immigration in place will be fully respected, as we are a country of rule of law.

Well, here's my problem: We don't have an immigration problem, we have an illegal entry into Canada problem. That's what Canadians want the PM to "get" and proceed on.

We live by the rule of law? Fine. The legal process to immigrate to Canada starts with an application to that effect made at a Canadian embassy or consulate in the country of the immigrant. It is not started at a border crossing and even less after crossing illegally outside of ports of entry. BTW, an actual Canadian who would enter back into Canada somewhere else than at a port of entry would be not only arrested, but detained in jail, brought to a judge to decide if release pending trial is appropriate and, upon being found guilty, sentenced to either a fine or jail time. Why not the same for all these illegal border crosser?

Also, it is important to distinguish Refugees and Asylum seekers. Refugees are fleeing a general situation without specific application to them personally: they flee a war zone or a devastated region or  famine area, etc. There is no famine or war in the US. Some of the illegals (I'll call them that from now on) are refugees from the devastation of the Haiti earthquake, but they have already been dealt with on that basis by a safe country under international law, the USA, who is from then on responsible for them until the devastation is overcome. This removes them from the ranks of refugees under said international law and they cannot make any further claim of refugee status in another country. Canada currently considers that there is no situation in Haiti that requires granting refugee status to its citizens.

The second category is Asylum seekers. People can seek asylum if there are circumstances specific to them personally that forces them to "escape" from their country for personal security reasons, such as receipt of death threats or being the object of persecution on various political, human rights or religious grounds. It does not apply to someone merely facing prosecution for commission of a crime in a country that otherwise recognizes the rule of law and provides the fundamental legal protections to all accused. The USA is one such country. In international law, asylum seekers should normally claim asylum in the first safe country they enter. If they do not do so, they can make their claim in another country. But no claim can be made anywhere AFTER a first such claim has been made in a safe country , wether it has been accepted or rejected.  International law does not recognize the shopping of asylum venue. Asylum seeking is the matter that is the object of the current Agreement between Canada and the US. Basically, you will not be let in at a border crossing if you seek entry to Canada as asylum seeker from the US.

So three possibilities exist when these Illegals come into Canada: (1) They wish to immigrate here, and don't claim asylum or refugee status: It's illegal, you are jumping queue, return them to either the US or, if the US won't have them, to their country of origin (this is whereto CAF can help: bus them to Saint-Hubert, stick them in the back of a Herky-bird and fly them home). (2) They claim refugee status: They came from the US and if they have papers from the US they are to be returned there immediately, otherwise, just by knowing where they are from (such as Haiti), the border personnel knows immediately if we recognize any such status or not - most likely not and again turn them back immediately. (3) they make an asylum protection demand: These are the only ones to be further investigated, really, but even then, an immediate check can and should be made with US authorities to see if they have ever made such claim while in the USA. If so, it's an immediate rejection here in Canada and, well by now you know what I think should be done.

All in all, everything exists for quick, legal and fair processing of this influx with the result that Canadians know to be the right one here: the rejection of the majority of these illegal entry seekers. By treating this as an immigration abnormal influx, the PM and his government, which claims that we are a country that follows the rule of law, is actually telling Canadians, and foreigners seeking the right to immigrate here legally ( and who will now have to await extra months if not years of delay in the processing of their claim because of these queue jumpers) that actually, we don't care, just get here any way you want and screw the law.
 

This is so much more than a  :goodpost:.......An excellent post.....Just to mention one thing; I doubt many, if any, qualify for asylum.

The Liberal Baffle Gabble calling them "Irregular Entries" is such a stupid statement to try to make these "illegal entries" look less illegal and fools nobody.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Colin P on August 24, 2017, 17:51:54
Meanwhile the "Government Operation Centre" is making a request for employees to fulfill a "Surge Capacity" through short term assignments and be prepared to work long shifts for 2 weeks in the administrative, operations, communications, and policy fields.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 24, 2017, 22:00:42
Meanwhile the "Government Operation Centre" is making a request for employees to fulfill a "Surge Capacity" through short term assignments and be prepared to work long shifts for 2 weeks in the administrative, operations, communications, and policy fields.

Does it promise to concurrently raise the priority of any volunteer's Phoenix trouble tickets?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on August 25, 2017, 17:53:32
Time for some nuance & juggling (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/08/25/trudeau-government-worried-asylum-seeker-influx-could-hurt-2019-election-chances_a_23185487/) ...
Quote
Trudeau Government Worried Asylum Seeker Influx Could Hurt 2019 Election Chances: Sources
The Liberals are concerned about losing popularity in Quebec.
08/25/2017 10:50 EDT | Updated 54 minutes ago | David Ljunggren

Canada fears a huge surge in asylum seekers crossing the border from the United States, putting political pressure on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ahead of a 2019 election, sources familiar with the matter said on Wednesday.

The number of migrants illegally entering Canada more than tripled in July and August, hitting nearly 7,000. Haitians, who face looming deportation from the United States when their temporary protected status expires in January 2018, accounted for much of the inflow.

Two sources familiar with Canadian government thinking said citizens from El Salvador, Nicaragua and Honduras, who are slated to lose their U.S. protected status in early 2018, may also head north.

"There is concern we'll see a huge increase, mostly from Central America," said one source.

"The question is, which group is next, and how are we going to deal with it, and what is the impact on Canadians?" added the source, who requested anonymity given the sensitivity of the situation.

Most new arrivals are going to the predominantly French-speaking province of Quebec, sparking protests from opposition politicians and anti-immigrant groups.

Trudeau's Liberals need to gain support in Quebec to offset expected losses elsewhere ahead of an October 2019 election.

Asked whether the Liberals were worried about losing popularity in Quebec, the source said: "Absolutely. That's a concern."

But if Trudeau clamps down too far, he risks tarnishing a long-cultivated reputation for openness and tolerance. He pointedly tweeted Canada's welcome of refugees after U.S. President Donald Trump unveiled a travel ban in January.

"The government is in a real quandary over this," said a third source familiar with official thinking ...
More @ link
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: ModlrMike on August 25, 2017, 21:24:10
As if that wasn't blindingly obvious!  :facepalm:

While we're right to worry about the 50,000+ Haitians, there are about 265,000 El Salvadoran and Honduran[1] folks who's TPS status is in jeopardy. Don't think for a moment they won't be looking northwards.

[1] Temporary Protected Status (https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20160218_RS20844_d5a2849b02e5a8d5e7621f9338e2ca1d538f62f1.html)
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 27, 2017, 21:25:13
It's a mess. Nearly all of the asylum seekers are attempting to enter at a single illegal point of entry in Quebec, about five minutes from the legal border crossing at Champlain NY / Blackpool, Qc. Numbers are down from the start of the month, but still averaging between 50 and 100 a day.

Haitians remain the plurality, maybe a majority. Not sure on hard numbers. They are far from it though- people are trying to enter from all kinds of different countries. The majority have been in the US for quite some time (years), some have US born children, and many have been legally working in the US for years and have been trying to get asylum there. The cessation of Temporary Protected Status for certain nationalities, particularly the Haitians, is a big part of it, but word has spread- recently they've seen Turks, Egyptians, Nigerians, Syrians, all kinds of other countries.

A lot of them are being fed bullshit or are believing rumors. Many don't realize that it's actually an illegal way to enter and that the presence of police at the little bridge across the stream doesn't make it a legit border station. Some turn back when told this, or when told that if they are deemed ineligbile for asylum, they don't get deported to the US, but back to their country of origin. Most hear these facts at the border, and cross anyway. They are immediately arrested and processed through police and border services. They're treated respectfully and even kindly in most instances, but it's made bloody clear that this manner of entry is criminal and that that may count against them for asylum.

However, with the Safe Third Country agreement in place, it ain't gonna change. I'm worried about the 260,000 El Salvadorans who may lose TPS status soon.

Not all have been in the States for long. Increasingly now that word is getting out, Haitians in particular are flying right into the US, they are being allowed into the country by US authorities once they say their final destination is Canada, and they're hopping planes, trains, and busses to New York and then cabbing it to the illegal entry point. American border officers are letting them enter the country uncontrolled based on their word that they're continuing onward to Canada.

The military has a couple of, for lack of better term, refugee camps ready. Red cross is sitting there ready to go. Thus far they've been processed through and onwards (to I'm not sure what) fast enough that these have seen minimal use; that could easily change.

Typically an asylum claim would be heard essentially immediately, before the person is released. The delay, anecdotally, is now 9-10 months. The matter is being 'adjourned', and those claiming asylum are being released into Canada with some modest support from some agencies, on the hope that they attend their hearing most of a year hence. If they fail to do so, a Canada-wide immigration warrant will go out for them, and if police later run them for any purpose (traffic stop, disturbance, criminal record check for employment or volunteering, whatever), that will come up and they will be arrested and held until the matter is done with.

I don't know the monthly throughput capacity for the Immigration and Refugee Board. I imagine the queue is going to continue to get longer indefinitely. It's a mess, and the organization that has had to assemble at the border is very ad hoc and based on whatever resources various agencies (particularly RCMP and CBSA) can spare at any given point in time from across the country. Law enforcement has the people it needs at the border, but they're rotating in and out so quickly that making a smooth process of it is tough... And it's complicating 'normal' border stuff like detecting and countering smugglers and other illegal entrants who have no intention of getting picked up and doing the asylum thing.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 28, 2017, 00:08:31
******* gong show is what it is.  A ******* gong show.  The fact we arrest then release these people hoping they show up for their hearing shows just how ******* stupid and weak-spined we have become as a country.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: ModlrMike on August 28, 2017, 01:23:06
We need a big *** sign at the border:

"Crossing at this point is illegal. Committing an illegal act upon entry invalidates any refugee claim. Have a nice day."
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 04:44:59
We need a big *** sign at the border:

"Crossing at this point is illegal. Committing an illegal act upon entry invalidates any refugee claim. Have a nice day."

Crossing a border to claim refugee status is legal under international law.  We're signatories to said law.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 28, 2017, 07:04:24
Crossing a border to claim refugee status is legal under international law.  We're signatories to said law.

No, crossing other than at a Port of entry is illegal under S. 11 of the Customs Act, and that's what they're being arrested for. We are also signatories to the Safe Third Country agreement, which makes those crossing at a Port of entry from the US ineligible for asylum claims in Canada.

When they arrive they are told to stop and not to cross. They are told doing so is illegal, a criminal offense, and will be treated as such. No sign is going to add much to this, as they are told this by RCMP officers.

There is nothing legal about the manner in which they are entering Canada, and you appear uninformed about the applicable laws and treaties. Most of those entering illegally will not be given asylum status, and will eventually be deported. This is a situation where you are much more likely to learn yourself then you are to educate others, but that's going to mean you need to listen to those of us with an better grasp of the situation than you have.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 28, 2017, 09:35:51
A corollary to my other comments: the US has ceased accepting asylum claims in many instances, so a situation some people are in is that they have perfectly legitimate grounds for asylum/refugee status, but the US won't entertain the application. Some of these people are trickling north as well. If they attempt legal entry at a legal border crossing, we will also not accept an asylum claim, because they are entering from a safe third country- BUT, that safe third country is one that won't let them apply either; the presumption that they claim asylum in the first safe country they enter is one of the underlying predicates of the safe third country agreement. So these individuals are entering illegally, as that at least allows them to file an asylum claim in Canada notwithstanding that they have previously been in the United States. Conversely, if they show up at a legal Can/US Port of entry, no matter how legitimate their claim is, Canada will not even entertain it, they will be recorded as having attempted entry, and if they subsequently come in illegally and are arrested, it's basically an immediate do not pass go.

To be granted asylum, they will have to concretely show why their lives are in imminent danger if they go home. "My country is a festering hellhole" won't cut it... As I said, some will have very legitimate grounds and will get to stay. Most won't.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 28, 2017, 09:54:36
Crossing a border to claim refugee status is legal under international law.  We're signatories to said law.

This is a good time to study before you spew.....
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 10:55:45
No, crossing other than at a Port of entry is illegal under S. 11 of the Customs Act, and that's what they're being arrested for. We are also signatories to the Safe Third Country agreement, which makes those crossing at a Port of entry from the US ineligible for asylum claims in Canada.

When they arrive they are told to stop and not to cross. They are told doing so is illegal, a criminal offense, and will be treated as such. No sign is going to add much to this, as they are told this by RCMP officers.

There is nothing legal about the manner in which they are entering Canada, and you appear uninformed about the applicable laws and treaties. Most of those entering illegally will not be given asylum status, and will eventually be deported. This is a situation where you are much more likely to learn yourself then you are to educate others, but that's going to mean you need to listen to those of us with an better grasp of the situation than you have.

Everything you say is true.  Except for the part that you're missing (I was missing said part too until recently - in fact, if you look back in this thread I've been saying the same things as you pretty much word for word).  There is a reason that the PM called them irregular crossers.  There is a reason that they're released and processed if they claim asylum and if they don't pose a security risk.

First, let us deal with the safe third country agreement.  Normally, such an arrangement would contravene the human rights convention, but, in this case it doesn't.  Canada requested it, and got the UN seal of approval.  Because the US system is considered just, and similar enough to ours, the UN considers it fair that Canada turn away refugees at legitimate border crossings with the US.  The US is also fine with that. 

We have to leave that aside, because it doesn't count with the situations we're referring to.  Once a person crosses the US Canada border they have broken the law.  That's why they're arrested, as you say. Once they claim refugee status, that changes.  At that point, how they got to Canada ceases to matter.  That's how this works.  They're in the country, and they are able to claim refugee status in the country.  If their claim is found to be unjustified, then their irregular crossing again becomes an illegal crossing.

This is a good time to study before you spew.....

I may have done that.  If you would like to understand it yourself:

  Other rights contained in the 1951 Convention include:
• The right not to be expelled,
except under certain, strictly
defined conditions (Article 32);
• The right not to be punished for
illegal entry into the territory of a
contracting State (Article31);

http://www.unhcr.org/about-us/background/4ec262df9/1951-convention-relating-status-refugees-its-1967-protocol.html
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: SeaKingTacco on August 28, 2017, 12:39:17
How is it, JMT, that you are never "wrong" about anything?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: EpicBeardedMan on August 28, 2017, 12:42:32
How is it, JMT, that you are never "wrong" about anything?
:rofl:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 12:47:20
How is it, JMT, that you are never "wrong" about anything?

Do me a favour, and point out what I said that was wrong.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: GAP on August 28, 2017, 13:11:49
How is it, JMT, that you are never "wrong" about anything?

 :rofl:   
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Colin P on August 28, 2017, 13:23:42
This is a real "Popcorn Moment" . Look at the fuss we are making about a few illegals crossing the border. To put it into context, if we had 1 million illegals living in Canada and 40,000 crossing the border every year we would be similar to what the US has dealt with for 2 generations.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: SeaKingTacco on August 28, 2017, 14:06:11
Do me a favour, and point out what I said that was wrong.

Crossing a border at any place other than an approved entry point is a violation under S11 of the Customs Act.

That is pretty much the definition of "illegal".

You are welcome.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 28, 2017, 15:30:23
Everything you say is true.  Except for the part that you're missing (I was missing said part too until recently - in fact, if you look back in this thread I've been saying the same things as you pretty much word for word).  There is a reason that the PM called them irregular crossers.  There is a reason that they're released and processed if they claim asylum and if they don't pose a security risk.

First, let us deal with the safe third country agreement.  Normally, such an arrangement would contravene the human rights convention, but, in this case it doesn't.  Canada requested it, and got the UN seal of approval.  Because the US system is considered just, and similar enough to ours, the UN considers it fair that Canada turn away refugees at legitimate border crossings with the US.  The US is also fine with that. 

We have to leave that aside, because it doesn't count with the situations we're referring to.  Once a person crosses the US Canada border they have broken the law.  That's why they're arrested, as you say. Once they claim refugee status, that changes.  At that point, how they got to Canada ceases to matter.  That's how this works.  They're in the country, and they are able to claim refugee status in the country.  If their claim is found to be unjustified, then their irregular crossing again becomes an illegal crossing.

Being your doctor or mechanic must be truly awful. I feel like I finally understand the feminist concept of 'mansplaining'.

The illegal crossing is always an illegal crossing. However as a matter of practice, an illegal crossing followed by an asylum claim will not be prosecuted. It does not become temporarily a legal crossing when the claim goes in, and become illegal again when it was rejected. The state merely cares differently depending on the presence or absence of a claim. Under no circumstances do you get to just cross into a sovereign state and they don't get to do anything about it if they do choose. Canada has voluntarily agreed to abide by certain conventions, however we can still prosecute immigration and customs offences. Again, the arrests are under the Customs act for failure to cross at a customs office, and not under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

The Prime Minister may apply whatever language he chooses to those entering the country illegally. His chosen terminology does not change the legal reality of the situation. They have committed an offense in entering, they are arrested and then processed through to CBSA for further processing, and their admissibility is then determined. All they do by crossing illegally is buy themselves some time in legal limbo and get consideration for asylum, but it will not make people admissible who otherwise aren't.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 28, 2017, 16:05:45
And while they are in legal limbo those who decide to can disappear into the masses and won't or can't be actively pursued and only picked up if opportunity presents itself.  Or did I misunderstand your earlier post?
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 16:52:16
Crossing a border at any place other than an approved entry point is a violation under S11 of the Customs Act.

Except when it's not.  Canada is a signatory to the UN Convention on Refugees. 

Canada has voluntarily agreed to abide by certain conventions, however we can still prosecute immigration and customs offences. Again, the arrests are under the Customs act for failure to cross at a customs office, and not under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

We can - if we choose to ignore/pull out of the convention.  I don't see that happening.  They cease to be illegal crossings when the person making the crossing claims asylum.

They are released, with charges put on hold when they claim asylum. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 17:01:02
But yes - under every other conceivable circumstance, crossing the border illegally is....illegal.

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: SeaKingTacco on August 28, 2017, 18:18:28
But yes - under every other conceivable circumstance, crossing the border illegally is....illegal.

Good. You now agree that breaking a law is illegal.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Colin P on August 28, 2017, 18:22:48
Good. You now agree that breaking a law is illegal.


Well almost

Black's Law Dictionary defines unlawful as not authorized by law, illegal. Illegal is defined as forbidden by law, unlawful. Semantically, there is a slight difference. It seems that something illegal is expressly proscribed by statute, and something unlawful is just not expressly authorized.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 28, 2017, 18:40:59
Except when it's not.  Canada is a signatory to the UN Convention on Refugees. 

We can - if we choose to ignore/pull out of the convention.  I don't see that happening.  They cease to be illegal crossings when the person making the crossing claims asylum.

They are released, with charges put on hold when they claim asylum.

Yeah, no, that's not how it works. The entry is still illegal, full stop. The UN convention on refugees does not negate the Customs Act. They are arrested under the Customs Act. An asylum claim changes their legal status in Canada, but it does not suddenly legalize the crossing.

Charges are not 'put on hold' when they claim asylum. Charges simply have not been laid. There are none to put on hold. Charges are not automatic. They are one possible result of an illegal entry, but that decision is made after initial processing has occurred. Understanding the nature of the crossing, police and border officials by practice are not charging at the illegal crossing points near St Jean.

Again, you would be better served to try to learn on this one, and not to try to preach to those who actually know the subject matter. You could even ask questions if you would like.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 18:48:26
I'll ask a question.  If their asylum claim is granted, will the charges for the illegal crossing go forward?

(This happens to be another of the areas that I actually do know the subject matter, unlike on actual military matters, btw)

They are being referred to by people in the legal profession as irregular crossers for a reason.  Those whose claim is found to be invalid are a different story.

If you wanted to convince me I was wrong, you could have went with the actual wording of Article 31 of the Convention.  It technically doesn't apply here, even if in practice it's usually applied as they're doing it now.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 28, 2017, 19:06:42
I'll ask a question.  If their asylum claim is granted, will the charges for the illegal crossing go forward?

(This happens to be another of the areas that I actually do know the subject matter, unlike on actual military matters, btw)

They are being referred to by people in the legal profession as irregular crossers for a reason.  Those whose claim is found to be invalid are a different story.

No it will not. They are being referred to that way because people have their own political views on the matter; language has frequently been altered to suit various interests in the border issue. It does not change the law on the matter. It does not make crossing the border illegally not illegal. S.11 of the Customs Act is crystal clear on that.

Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.

I understand that you believe you have a full appreciate of the situation, but you do not. It's very clear you're not actually working in any capacity connected to this issue or you would have a better idea of the reality on the ground. I am. I'm not googling this; this is all firsthand.

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 19:13:22
No it will not. They are being referred to that way because people have their own political views on the matter; language has frequently been altered to suit various interests in the border issue. It does not change the law on the matter. It does not make crossing the border illegally not illegal. S.11 of the Customs Act is crystal clear on that.

You're correct of course, it's always technically illegal.  If they're found to have a legitimate claim, what they did to get here doesn't matter anymore, and the convention applies.  Until they're processed, the convention applies.  Irregular is a better word, IMO, until their claim is denied.

Quote
Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.


I believe you.  I hope we're able to put enough resources in to get things done somewhat timely.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 28, 2017, 22:15:14
Just shut up please.  I want more info from someone who knows, not someone who thinks they know.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 28, 2017, 22:42:10
Just shut up please.  I want more info from someone who knows, not someone who thinks they know.

Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 29, 2017, 00:45:28
Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.

Why, what happened today other than someone directly involved in this at the border showing up? I'm as happy to answer questions for him as I am for you. I am not the be all end all expert, but I am on the ground working this, and certainly understand my legal authorities and the various factors in play here. If you think this is a useless place for the layperson to get info, you can only speak for yourself. While I may need to be circumspect and cautious in my input at times, for you to say this thread is no longer a good place for discussion suggests you regarded it as such only so long as you were the only one offering up perspective. I assure you, you are not the only educated person here, nor the only one with an academic understanding of the big picture. Some of us on this board simply happen to also bolster that with real world experience.

You come across as arrogant and insufferable in your insistence on expertise on this. Maybe find a role where you can actually spend some time at the border or with the subject population, or join and become trained and experienced in one of the involved agencies.

There is a finite point beyond which one cannot any longer learn the real world from books. Sometimes to really know something takes doing things and learning from the experience of those you meet whilst doing those things.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 29, 2017, 01:01:06
Look, the legal community is also split on this:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3299221/asylum-seekers-us-canada-border-laws/

It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it out to be.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 29, 2017, 01:52:00
Just a suggestion (then I'll 'shut up') - this isn't a good place to get info on this subject.  It was a good place to discuss it, until today.

Police officers, border guards, military lawyers, military police, highly educated military officers (commissioned and non) with decades of experience. I'm confident with the level and quality of info here.

Contrary to what you may feel JMT we're actually not here for your entertainment or to give you some sense of debating satisfaction. You've already stated arguing on the internet is a hobby of yours.  If you don't like it here you could always move on instead of lamenting about it and the cliché "last post" stuff. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on August 29, 2017, 07:57:29
Look, the legal community is also split on this:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3299221/asylum-seekers-us-canada-border-laws/

It's not as clear cut as you're trying to make it out to be.


So??  Some Americans beleave , and will quote for the media, that Mr. Trump is not  their  President.......doesn't make it so.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 29, 2017, 08:47:57
JMT:  some references for you:

Asylum is defined as the protection granted by a nation to a person who cannot return to their home country for fear of prosecution.

Other than legitimate immigrants who follow the established process, persons arriving at the border fall into two categories under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (IRPA):

REFUGEE (IRPA Part II, s. 96): person who, by reason of a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group or political opinion,
(a) is outside each of their countries of nationality and is unable or, by reason of that fear, unwilling to avail themself of the protection of each of those countries; or
(b) not having a country of nationality, is outside the country of their former habitual residence and is unable or, by reason of that fear, unwilling to return to that country.

PERSON IN NEED OF PROTECTION (IRPA Part II, s. 97(1): person in Canada whose removal to their country or countries of nationality or, if they do not have a country of nationality, their country of former habitual residence, would subject them personally
(a) to a danger, believed on substantial grounds to exist, of torture within the meaning of Article 1 of the Convention Against Torture; or
(b) to a risk to their life or to a risk of cruel and unusual treatment or punishment if
(i) the person is unable or, because of that risk, unwilling to avail themself of the protection of that country,
(ii) the risk would be faced by the person in every part of that country and is not faced generally by other individuals in or from that country,
(iii) the risk is not inherent or incidental to lawful sanctions, unless imposed in disregard of accepted international standards, and
(iv) the risk is not caused by the inability of that country to provide adequate health or medical care.

Most of those crossing will not get to stay. Most do not have sufficient grounds for an asylum claim. Some are showing up already having attempted legal entry, being ruled inadmissible, and having an exclusion order.

Brihard is correct and it's important to understand the onus is on the applicant to prove they require protection as outlined above.  If they have already been deemed inadmissible and nothing in their situation has changed regarding what they may face if repatriated to their country of citizenship, then they will still be inadmissible. 

Some will get to stay-  but very few of the Haitians, absent ministerial intervention. Those with a valid reason to fear for their lives may be accepted.

Note, also, that there is a clear distinction between Refugee and Person in Need of Protection in that a Refugee is fleeing a generally unsafe situation and a Person in Need of Protection is fleeing an unsafe situation that applies to them specifically.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: captloadie on August 29, 2017, 10:21:57
So how will the government deal with this current situation? Having served in Haiti recently, I can see where the regulations posted by Haggis supports Brihard's determination that few of the Haitians crossing the border will meet the definition of refugees or Person's in need of protection. What I can't see is the government loading thousands of these individuals onto chartered aircraft and returning them to Port-au-Prince. Nor can I see gov't putting a whole lot of effort into tracking them down, once word gets out that that is might be the plan and they all scatter in the wind (my understanding is they currently are not being "detained" in any form and have full walking out privileges).

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Colin P on August 29, 2017, 12:55:03
If they did fly them back, that would cause the flood to become a trickle, there will be some that want a free flight. Letting them go is basically acquiescing to them staying.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 29, 2017, 13:17:34
Therein lies the rub. If the course of events is allowed to play out, over a few years this will all go through Immigraion and Refugee Board hearings, those deemed ineligible will receive orders to exit the country, and then the appeals will start. Once they play out, again there will be orders to leave the country. Some will, some won't. Those who don't will end up with Canada wide immigration warrants and over time as they have encounters with police that cause a CPIC check to be done, they'll slowly trickle in to the detention and removal system.

Some of the people coming in have very valid grounds for asylum... People whose cities back home (e.g., Syria) are literally gone. Others have fallen victim to inaccurate rumors. Some are just mind numbingly stupid and don't have a chance (e.g. some adult American citizens have actually come in thinking they can get asylum here, though it's unclear what they are fleeing). The border situation in Quebec is far from just Haitians at this point. Everyone's got a story, some are truly awful, but most won't cut it.

The big "what if?" Is if the federal minister orders stays on removal processes, and if executive authority is used to arbitrarily grant legal status in Canada to those whose asylum claims don't go through. We are all fully cognizant that a dragged out removal of several thousand Haitians will not look good for the government, and that the timeframe for same could be quite awkward indeed. But that's speculative and in the future.

I have been truly impressed by the CBSA border services officers that I've had the pleasure of working with. These are people who love welcoming those who have been granted permission to come to Canada; who love identifying those at risk in trafficking situations, or assisting those who are fleeing real and awful persecution. I have not in the past given CBSA enough credit as an organization. They have good people doing a tough job.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 29, 2017, 13:40:14
The big "what if?" Is if the federal minister orders stays on removal processes, and if executive authority is used to arbitrarily grant legal status in Canada to those whose asylum claims don't go through.

That certainly wouldn't be consistent with any of the messaging around the process from this government. 
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Good2Golf on August 29, 2017, 14:06:44
That certainly wouldn't be consistent with any of the messaging around the process from this government.

Really?  You're going to go with that?   :rofl:

The Government and the PM himself refuse to call their actions crossing the border illegal, but only 'irregular.'  I drove past the tent cities on I-87 a couple days ago, and the accommodations and facilities for them were better turned out than most Canadian Army exercises I've ever been on.  This whole operation is visibly messaging "Welcome!"

You can borrow the batteries from my "surprised face", jmt18325, when this comes to pass -- I won't need them.

G2G

   


Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on August 29, 2017, 14:32:34
I will be surprised.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on August 29, 2017, 15:38:08
The best solution proposed to date was in a reader's letter to the Montreal Gazette published today:

"Build a wall and make the USA pay for it" ... the reader claims that "there's a precedent to do just that".

 :rofl:  :salute:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 29, 2017, 15:59:03
"Build a wall and make the USA pay for it".

I have broached this idea before, but with a twist.  Build it predominantly out of snow and ice, but with sufficient structural framing to maintain it's form and symbolic purpose during the summer, so it becomes a seasonal employment project.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 29, 2017, 16:40:43
Oh, believe me, that joke has been getting a lot of play.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 29, 2017, 17:42:29
A people wall?


(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21055925_1770362996324513_5986843532346235286_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=d603a73e429f783b719b45bdff4f1bce&oe=5A198720)
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on August 29, 2017, 17:54:38
It ain't the radicals from the left that I fear having show up at this party... Quite frankly I am what I think is reasonably concerned about some wingnut showing up unhinged one day determined to 'take care of the refugee problem' himself. Most of us don't see it as Anglos, but there's a unique dynamic within franco Quebec's right wing, related to but distinct from (chortle) the conventional white nationalist movement we see in small pockets throughout Canada. While the Haitians mostly speak some French, other nationalities crossing the border do not, and fall into demographics that have gotten a less than sympathetic response from some radical fringe elements. While I don't *expect* an act of violent radicalism at the border, it remains a possibility that I'm attentive to.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on August 29, 2017, 22:59:58
(https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/21055925_1770362996324513_5986843532346235286_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=d603a73e429f783b719b45bdff4f1bce&oe=5A198720)

The incongruity in this image is stunning.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: NavyShooter on August 30, 2017, 08:07:52
Arrest these clowns, give each of them a family of refugees/migrants/illegal immigrants/claimants/etc to take home and care for, with the promise that their charges will be dropped if they care for the family properly and bring them to the necessary tribunals/hearings/etc.

That would be an amazing act of love on their part...which is the opposite of hate...which is what they're asking for, right?

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Brihard on September 01, 2017, 12:18:53
Fewer asylum seekers crossing into Quebec illegally, CBSA says
CBSA says drop in number of refugee claimants started last week but agents still taking situation day by day

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-asylum-seekers-numbers-down-1.4270211

After an unprecedented spike in the number of asylum seekers crossing the border into Quebec illegally in early August, the Canada Border Services Agency says those numbers are now dropping.

Border agents are now handing the claims of 50 to 100 asylum seekers per day.

Compare that to the beginning of the month, when as many as 1,200 people were waiting to be processed at the border crossing in Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle, Que.

Before the surge in the number of people crossing into Canada began, agents were handling about a dozen asylum claims daily.

While the number of refugee claimants has been on the decline since the end of last week, the CBSA said it's still taking the situation day by day.

Many of the recent refugee claimants crossing into Quebec are Haitians who have been living in America for years but now face deportation.

In May, U.S. President Donald Trump announced that he would not be extending temporary protection status (TPS) for Haitian nationals past January, when that status is set to expire.

TPS was granted after the 2010 earthquake, but now the Department of Homeland Security considers Haiti to be a safe country.

A slowing of the surge of asylum seekers and more resources allocated to handle the claims also mean that people are spending less time at the makeshift tent city set up at the border while waiting to be processed, said the CBSA.

Last week, Cornwall, Ont., Mayor Leslie O'Shaughnessy announced the tent city pitched outside the Nav Centre to make room for asylum seekers will remain empty until further notice.

He said immigration officials told the city that processing was proceeding more quickly than expected at Quebec crossings.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on September 02, 2017, 00:05:25
Meanwhile (https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-considering-heated-trailers-for-asylum-seekers-in-winter/article36146101/?click=sf_globe) ...
Quote
The federal government is taking precautionary measures in case Canada sees another surge of irregular asylum seekers from the United States, including the possible purchase of winterized trailers and a plan to reach out to groups who may flee the U.S. in the coming months.

Public Services and Procurement Canada issued a tender Thursday* for winterized trailers in Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle, Que., where thousands of asylum seekers have crossed into Canada at irregular border crossings in recent months. The tender is seeking accommodations for 200 people on behalf of the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA), which processes asylum seekers when they cross the border.

The Canadian Armed Forces has set up army encampments in the town capable of accommodating 1,200 people while they wait for the CBSA to process them. Transport Minister Marc Garneau said the tents have heaters but the government is considering trailers for the winter months.

"We are, as a precautionary measure, looking at the possibility of trailers … which have a more robust capability to be able to house people in colder conditions," Mr. Garneau told reporters on Parliament Hill Friday after a meeting with the federal-provincial task force on irregular migration.

The task force, chaired by Mr. Garneau, was formed in August to address the recent increase in asylum seekers from the U.S . Almost 8,000 have irregularly crossed into Quebec – many at Lacolle – since June ...
* - public bidding site notice here (https://goo.gl/1d39zz) (also attached in case link doesn't work):
Quote
... THIS LETTER OF INTEREST (LOI) IS NOT A SOLICITATION AND NO CONTRACT WILL RESULT FROM IT.

Intent

Canada has a requirement for letters of interest from interested suppliers with the ability and availability to provide services for the supply and installation of housing units for accommodating 200 people on behalf of the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) at St-Bernard-de-Lacolle.

The purpose of this posting is to generate a list of possible suppliers that would be interested in being provided a copy of future solicitation(s) relating to the type of goods or services identified in the requirements described below.

Canada may, at its discretion, decide to only contact or solicit bids from the suppliers that have responded to this LOI.

A.1 Summary Description of Required Goods and Services

The facility will consist of insulated waterproof heated structures providing a good level of comfort in all seasons and meeting the requirements of Part 9 of the 2015 National Building Code. The structures can be mobile in nature or be assembled on-site from prefabricated components. The facilities must primarily accommodate the following:

- Sleeping spaces (bedrooms or dormitories)
- Eating facilities (dining room space for food services [refrigeration area, service area for cold meals and eating area.])
- Living and rest spaces
- Sanitary services (toilets, sinks and showers)
- Spaces for related services (laundry, medical clinic, distribution of supplies)
- Site fit-up (perimeter fencing and lighting).

Please note that the site does not have any storm-drainage, sanitary or drinking-water supply infrastructure. The proposed facilities must therefore be self-sustaining in these areas. Periodic drinking-water supply and disposal-of-wastewater services will not be included in the contract.

A.2 Timeline

The facilities must be operational six weeks after the contract is awarded.

The duration of the services could be for a period of up to nine months after the opening of the facilities, with the possibility of extension periods ...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Journeyman on September 02, 2017, 09:12:15
House them at CMRSJ;  warm shelter and  they can brush up on academics, military ethos, athletics, and bilingualism.   ;)
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2017, 08:07:07
If you think climate change isn't necessarily a security issue, maybe not always, but sometimes, it doesn't help (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hurricane-irma-haiti-asylum-1.4278568) ...
Quote
Canada could indefinitely suspend deportations to Haiti and other countries devastated by Hurricane Irma, according to federal provisions that halt removals to nations deemed too dangerous because of conflict or disaster.

Scott Bardsley, spokesman for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, said the Canada Border Services Agency will not deport anyone who has had their refugee claim rejected, or is deemed inadmissible to Canada, to a country coping with a hurricane.

After the storm has passed, an evaluation will be carried out on the ground to determine its impact.

If the country is deemed safe, removals could continue. But widespread devastation could lead to a suspension of deportations, as happened after the 2010 earthquake in Haiti.

Those postponements could last for months or even years.

"What happens really depends on the circumstance," Bardsley said ...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 08, 2017, 10:56:56
If you think climate change isn't necessarily a security issue, maybe not always, but sometimes, it doesn't help (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hurricane-irma-haiti-asylum-1.4278568) ...
Quote
...
Scott Bardsley, spokesman for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale, said the Canada Border Services Agency will not deport anyone who has had their refugee claim rejected, or is deemed inadmissible to Canada, to a country coping with a hurricane.

Except that most of the these folks didn't come from Haiti ... not directly, anyway. They came from the USA, which is, by law, a "safe third country," and they should be sent back there, not to Haiti. They are President Trump's problem ...
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2017, 11:08:40
... They came from the USA, which is, by law, a "safe third country," and they should be sent back there, not to Haiti. They are President Trump's problem ...
Good point, but that raises the question of whether PMJT & Co. will be willing to accept this premise & just send 'em back with that message.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 08, 2017, 11:15:56
Good point, but that raises the question of whether PMJT & Co. will be willing to accept this premise & just send 'em back with that message.


As much as I detest Donald Trump (because I think he is a semi-literate, bumbling buffoon) and as much as I also detest the US Congress (both sides of the aisle) I think that the (unelected) US courts are, largely, effective and trustworthy. I suspect our courts trust them too, and I also suspect that after the sundry immigration tribunals have mucked things up many cases will end up in our courts which will insist that the Government of Canada enforce our laws and send them back to the USA.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: milnews.ca on September 08, 2017, 11:20:43
As much as I detest Donald Trump (because I think he is a semi-literate, bumbling buffoon) and as much as I also detest the US Congress (both sides of the aisle) I think that the (unelected) US courts are, largely, effective and trustworthy. I suspect our courts trust them too, and I also suspect that after the sundry immigration tribunals have mucked things up many cases will end up in our courts which will insist that the Government of Canada enforce our laws and send them back to the USA.
Agreed -- but that'll take time, allowing all bases to get pumped up.
:pop:
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: jmt18325 on September 08, 2017, 11:21:24

As much as I detest Donald Trump (because I think he is a semi-literate, bumbling buffoon) and as much as I also detest the US Congress (both sides of the aisle) I think that the (unelected) US courts are, largely, effective and trustworthy. I suspect our courts trust them too, and I also suspect that after the sundry immigration tribunals have mucked things up many cases will end up in our courts which will insist that the Government of Canada enforce our laws and send them back to the USA.

The US has no reason or obligation to take them back - that's the problem.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Haggis on September 08, 2017, 11:27:54
As much as I detest Donald Trump (because I think he is a semi-literate, bumbling buffoon) and as much as I also detest the US Congress (both sides of the aisle) I think that the (unelected) US courts are, largely, effective and trustworthy. I suspect our courts trust them too, and I also suspect that after the sundry immigration tribunals have mucked things up many cases will end up in our courts which will insist that the Government of Canada enforce our laws and send them back to the USA.

The U.S. administration and the courts could elect to play hardball and deny them entry back into the U.S.   They could rule that by entering Canada illegally and, as a result being deported, that they are now inadmissible to the U.S.  They are Haitian citizens with no "re-entry by right" privileges enjoyed by U.S. citizens.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: mariomike on September 08, 2017, 11:31:23
As much as I detest Donald Trump (because I think he is a semi-literate, bumbling buffoon)

Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: Blackadder1916 on September 08, 2017, 14:36:49


Except that most of the these folks didn't come from Haiti ... not directly, anyway. They came from the USA, which is, by law, a "safe third country," and they should be sent back there, not to Haiti. They are President Trump's problem ...

Everything is in the details and definitions matter.  By God, I'm channeling Staff School.

Actually, by law, in the USA they are not refugees nor are they refugee/asylum claimants (though they may have been at one time, but not any longer).  The Haitian border crossers were in the US under a "Temporary Protected Status (https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/temporary-protected-status)" (TPS) which is different and distinct (down there) from being a "refugee (https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees)".  The expectations and treatment by the US government is quite different.

In the case of refugees/asylum seekers they want them to stay and become part of the American melting pot ("want" may be a strong sentiment, more likely "don't mind").

Refugee/Asylum
Quote
If you are admitted as a refugee, you must apply for a green card one year after coming to the United States. . . .
Quote
You may apply for a green card one year after being granted asylum.

However, as a TPS person
Quote
TPS is a temporary benefit that does not lead to lawful permanent resident status or give any other immigration status. However, registration for TPS does not prevent you from:
•Applying for nonimmigrant status
•Filing for adjustment of status based on an immigrant petition
•Applying for any other immigration benefit or protection for which you may be eligible

Along with their other regulations, travel outside the USA by TPS persons is also covered.  They can travel if they request prior permission; if they leave the USA without prior permission then the Temporary Protected Status is no longer in effect and their re-entry to the USA is the same as anyone else from their country of origin.  The same would apply if the individual was in the USA under refugee/asylum status.

As for "safe third country" being invoked, that Canada/USA agreement applies, however there would probably be some disagreement as to whether these individuals are actually refugees or if they had sought refugee status in the USA.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/laws-policy/menu-safethird.asp
Quote
The Safe Third Country Agreement applies only to refugee claimants who are seeking entry to Canada from the U.S.:
•at Canada-U.S. land border crossings (does this mean only designated border crossings?)
•by train or
at airports, only if the person seeking refugee protection in Canada has been refused refugee status in the U.S. and is in transit through Canada after being deported from the U.S.

As much as I would like them removed to the United States to have them deal with it, I think we are stuck with the problem, "legally".
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 09, 2017, 10:02:14
Everything is in the details and definitions matter.  By God, I'm channeling Staff School.

Actually, by law, in the USA they are not refugees nor are they refugee/asylum claimants (though they may have been at one time, but not any longer).  The Haitian border crossers were in the US under a "Temporary Protected Status (https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/temporary-protected-status)" (TPS) which is different and distinct (down there) from being a "refugee (https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees)".  The expectations and treatment by the US government is quite different.

In the case of refugees/asylum seekers they want them to stay and become part of the American melting pot ("want" may be a strong sentiment, more likely "don't mind").

Refugee/Asylum
However, as a TPS person
Along with their other regulations, travel outside the USA by TPS persons is also covered.  They can travel if they request prior permission; if they leave the USA without prior permission then the Temporary Protected Status is no longer in effect and their re-entry to the USA is the same as anyone else from their country of origin.  The same would apply if the individual was in the USA under refugee/asylum status.

As for "safe third country" being invoked, that Canada/USA agreement applies, however there would probably be some disagreement as to whether these individuals are actually refugees or if they had sought refugee status in the USA.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/laws-policy/menu-safethird.asp
As much as I would like them removed to the United States to have them deal with it, I think we are stuck with the problem, "legally".

Thanks, Blackadder1916; I was (obviously) unaware of that distinction and I agree that we may well end up being "stuck" with them.
Title: Re: Haitian refugees Flocking To Canada
Post by: George Wallace on September 09, 2017, 10:35:26
Thanks, Blackadder1916; I was (obviously) unaware of that distinction and I agree that we may well end up being "stuck" with them.

Looks like these people crossing the border have not only caused us some major "legal" concerns, but in making that trek they have screwed themselves out of anything that they may have had in the US.