Author Topic: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society  (Read 396968 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 125,974
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,363
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1050 on: October 17, 2019, 12:10:43 »
The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

I think the above is a pretty fair assessment.  I am not a Religious individual myself and believe strongly that the CAF should be 100% secular.  I guess one of the issues is some of these Reserve Units have long standing associations with these Churches and not going there is a break in tradition and if there is one organization other than the RCN that cares about tradition, it is the Militia. 

I would much rather a Reserve Unit organize its own secular service and invite everyone to it but then again, they would actually have to plan/take ownership of something and that might be too hard for some  :nod:

The Honorary Colonel/Captain piece is an entirely different matter.  Honorary Colonels/Captains should have deep pockets as well as be politically connected.  I think the Military at present does a terrible job reaching out to actual business people with solid pedigrees and leveraging their connections.  Many have relatives who served in the CAF/Wars and would probably be very interested in being an Honorary if they were actually approached.  People like E.P. Taylor seem like a distant memory to the present day Canadian Military Honorary Colonels/Captains.

This is an example of a something that has significant weight and repercussions to it. How do you explain this action to the entire country? Canadians in different locations will be/are well aware of what's taking place in areas other than 32 CBG wrt military presence and participation at different venues--And here's one BG basically doing what they want as they see fit. Whether I personally agree with it or not is irrelevant. But as far as I'm concerned, this is a direction that is either CAF-wide or it isn't.

Another pretty fair assessment, either all do it, or nobody does it seems to be a pretty good policy.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 520,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,760
    • The job.
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1051 on: October 17, 2019, 12:15:50 »
There are no atheists in foxholes.

I remember the "Soldiers who have come under fire often find God " discussion.  :)

They say, "There are no atheists in foxholes."

I can say with some confidence that "they" are full of crap. Know plenty of troops who were under contact pretty close on a regular basis and are still staunch atheists.


Offline Jarnhamar

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 305,821
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,197
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1052 on: October 17, 2019, 12:35:28 »
The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Humphrey Bogart

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 125,974
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,363
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1053 on: October 17, 2019, 13:01:44 »
It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

Sounds like we need to go back to this:



Then we can all look terrible together  ;D

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 257,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,242
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1054 on: October 17, 2019, 13:06:36 »
I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

Church parades? Meh... I could take it or leave it.

Continuing the employment of first class Padres (of multiple faiths) to ‘minister’ to the spiritual - and other mental health and wellness needs of our troops as required?

Absolutely.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 147,835
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,686
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1055 on: October 17, 2019, 14:04:54 »
The problem here is that it is a parade...and hence mandatory. 

If the Unit Church Parade was at a mosque, would that change the view of posters here?  Is it okay to order Christians, Hindus, Aboriginal Peoples, Zoroastrians, atheists and agnostics to attend a an Islamic service - or even to entry an Islamic place of worship? Assuming that all the posters here would in fact be in favour of a Mosque parade, would people be okay with removing shoes on entering?  Because we remove our headdress on entering a church in accordance with norms of Christianity.

Mandatory attendance, especially in uniform, at any religious service is, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I'm not even sure I am okay with voluntary attendance in uniform, because despite what another poster has stated, Canada is not "a Christian Country" - it is a country with many Christians in it, and a long history of established Christianity in its communities.  It has just as long a tradition of secularism, and is considered to be a secular state.

So, if it was my call, I would not hold a Church Parade for any soldiers under my command.

I agree it should not be mandatory or any form of coercion. As part of my official work in the Public Service I have had to attend FN religious ceremonies and each meeting is started with a prayer, guess what would have happened if I stepped out to avoid that as part of my beliefs?   

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 257,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,242
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1056 on: October 17, 2019, 14:19:11 »
I agree it should not be mandatory or any form of coercion. As part of my official work in the Public Service I have had to attend FN religious ceremonies and each meeting is started with a prayer, guess what would have happened if I stepped out to avoid that as part of my beliefs?

Which is why, unlike some people, I remain a big fan of good PS unions who can help mitigate any career damage as a result of these types of personal choices.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 26,620
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 773
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1057 on: October 17, 2019, 14:25:01 »
Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

Offline Colin P

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 147,835
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,686
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1058 on: October 17, 2019, 14:31:58 »
Which is why, unlike some people, I remain a big fan of good PS unions who can help mitigate any career damage as a result of these types of personal choices.

I would still be labelled a racist and it would have impacted my ability to work with the bands, so I bit my tongue. It's very amusing when the PC crowd are expecting a "traditional FN ceremony" and then the elder gets up and recites the lords prayer, lots of squirming by the PC's much to my delight.  :nod:


Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 193,810
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,036
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1059 on: October 17, 2019, 14:48:01 »
. . .  As part of my official work in the Public Service . . .

And that's the difference.  As a public servant, you've had to "conduct business" (even if that business is only representing your government department) with groups while they are incorporating a religious aspect to events.  There are certain circumstances when military members have to "conduct business" at functions that may have a religious component separate from their military function; an example would be a bearer party or honour guard at a funeral.  A church parade is different; the sole purpose is to bring soldiers to a place of worship for the purpose of worship, there is no other separate military requirement for them to be there.

I remember church parades at Cornwallis, if you didn't attend one of the services, you had to remain outside the chapel until the service (and the after-service coffee and cake) was over.  At least at CFOCS Chilliwack, the mandatory attendance (inside or outside the church) was limited to the first Sunday.  Thankfully, that sort of stupidity is passed, or I hope it is as I noted in Ms Blatchford's article that the mandatory attendance at religious services has been prohibited for at least five years according to the Chaplain's Manual.

PPCLI Guy's comments were spot on.

Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline BeyondTheNow

    Commencing countdown, engines on.

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 75,030
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,238
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1060 on: October 17, 2019, 14:48:58 »
Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

Bingo.

And what you outlined is happening almost verbatim. At least 1 25+ year serving mbr of the unit wants to attend the church service that up until now the unit has paraded to every year. The mbr is now being told that they're forbidden to attend. A couple of honouraries have voiced their confusion and displeasure with the situation, and word is now getting out to community members who frequent the occasion(s) also. This is becoming nothing but another bad PR run for CAF. As well, some are of the belief that the unit itself made this decision, so thus begins the damage control... 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 14:52:41 by BeyondTheNow »
“I’m so sick of people thinking they can just waltz into my office when I’m obviously listening to music in 4/4.”

Offline ModlrMike

    : Riding time again... woohooo!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 218,444
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,898
    • Canadian Association of Physician Assistants
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1061 on: October 17, 2019, 15:13:19 »
Atheism = I don't believe, but it's fine if you do.

Antitheism = I don't believe, and it's wrong if you do.
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
Zero tolerance is the politics of the lazy. All it requires is that you do nothing and ban everything.

Offline AbdullahD

    update status.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 28,325
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 537
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1062 on: October 17, 2019, 15:15:02 »
I see where you're going with that (I think). I'm an atheist. I'm not a fan of the church being so closely associated with the military and parades and ceremonies but I'm desensitized to it.
Would going to a mosque bother me? Yup it definitely would - which is probably pretty hypocritical of me if I'm being honest.

But also being honest , and without trying to go down a rabbit hole too much, I think a church is more tolerant than a mosque when it comes to observing rules. I've seen sikh's wearing turbans and if I remember correctly jewish people wearing kippah's at church and no one made a big deal about it.

Forget about taking shoes off, would a female soldier have to enter a mosque through a side door and cover their head like the 3 female MP's who accompanied the prime minister on his visit to a mosque have to do?

I feel like churches have become pretty open to other religions and atheists alike. I'm not so sure the same can be said for mosques yet. (of course maybe I'm wrong)

I do see your point though and agree. I'd be fine with never stepping foot in a church again.


It makes me wonder whats next on this road.
Should we ban kilts because it's insensitive to make people from different cultures adopt Scottish customs?
Should we ban wearing medals because it makes CAF members without any medals feel inadequate in their DEU's?
Should we ban DEU's themselves because making a CAF member pick between male and female DEU's could cause gender identity stress (or something to that effect?) for members who identify as neither?

You are.. not wrong. Sadly. Doesn't make it right, logical or mature.

But you are not wrong, far to many mosques are backwards in regards to respect between the sexes. But not all.. just disproportionately more Mosques, sadly.

Now having said that, all the mosques that I have been too, have been pretty accepting of other religions as long as an issue was not being made of it. So I would not foresee a huge issue with CF members doing anything at a Mosque... heck most likely our esteemed Ladies would be ok as well to stay with the CF men.. but... yeah... (having said that I have seen a Pastor come, accidentally make the wrong statement and hahaha lol yeah... good times lol)

But again this is Islamic culture not the religion.

This road has no end, because to many Canadians are.. what is it called? Virtue signalling? Instead of maturing and respecting other religions, cultures, ideologies and political convictions.. they feel the need to force everyone into a bland version of Canada.. were everyone acts how certain groups of people demand they act.

I am upset about this because the CF was to me, a bastion against this idiotic onslaught. In a way... what happened to being able to respect something without following or believing in it?

I want my kids to grow up respecting other beliefs. Hell, if a Christian padre wants to come to my town to talk (most likely only my kids) about the importance of remembrance day and the importance of the CF members christian convictions, I would support it! As long as the intent was not conversion, but education.

I'm pissed, I know I am rambling, but this is BS. I am just sick and tired of it. This is just going to lead to more opportunities for those to stage their protests to enforce their beliefs upon the Canadian Forces. No one should be "forced" to accept another religion to be in the CF, but if you are being forced to show respect to another religion or honor it or remember it.. who the heck cared?

Remove head dress in a Church, Shoes in a Mosque. What's the big deal? Wouldn't it help make people see the CF as friends and possibly help with talented recruitment? My aunty is a strong babtist lady and before every meal she says a prayer, I. Join. Her. With it. Holding hands, saying amen etc. Respecting another belief, does not take you out of your own. Maybe don't say amen etc, but no religion that I know of does respecting another religion remove you from yours. I could be wrong though.

We are trying to be more sensitive to "minorities" so we are doing less. Why not do more! So the CF does christian parades, cool. I know we have Islamic priests as padres, hell I have talked to them (am considering a third career when I am done travelling) and I am sure they could arrange a parade to honor Muslims. If they can't, and if the CF wants that, contact me, I will do my darndest to make Muslims be on board.

Or screw it. Take my firearms, take my right to raise my kids as I see fit, take my right to enjoy classic cars, old boats, make me pay more taxes, take my rights to hunting, fishing and camping. I love Canada, Most Canadians too even. But what about our traditions, our culture, our history, I love that too, even the bad parts.

I've been rambling to long, who knows maybe I shouldn't be upset about this and I am part of the problem as a rich, white, dude.

Abdullah

P.s I know Canada is not a christian nation, that was said in a childish fit more in spirit then reality. I need to grow up sorry again.

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 122,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,633
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1063 on: October 17, 2019, 15:25:50 »
There are certain circumstances when military members have to "conduct business" at functions that may have a religious component separate from their military function; an example would be a bearer party or honour guard at a funeral.  A church parade is different; the sole purpose is to bring soldiers to a place of worship for the purpose of worship, there is no other separate military requirement for them to be there.

A funeral is a religious rite.  There is no separate business there.  The sole purpose of the a soldier in an honour guard or pall bearer is to participate in the funeral rite.  It is completely integrated.  It is not some separate thing that just happens at the same time.

if we are going to go full on secular then soldiers should never be at any funeral in any official capacity unless it is devoid of any religious connotations.

We can't have it one way for some things and one way for others.   

No religious types at the national war memorial on 11 November.  Instead have a PAFFO give a non religious speech.

While were at it "In Flanders Fields" has religious connotations and should be amended. 

Get rid of the padre part of the CAF.  Social workers can take that on.

Are you going to be buried at Beechwood cemetary?  Remove the choice to have Crosses or Crescents or stars of David.  You can do it on the civy side but we don't want to offend the dead or families that might be visiting former soldiers. 

Why are we even asking for religion on PEN forms and dog tags.  Ditch that stuff.

Weddings?  Well no uniforms if it is a religious ceremony but you are gtg if it is at city hall.

Almost every Highland regiment has a St Andrew's Cross on their headdress.  why are we forcing anyone not of that faith to wear that?!!

Junior Ranks holiday dinner?  Turkey? stuffing?  Yeah, it's not a xmas party but be real, it is exactly that.  Time to forgo that.   

See what this leads to?

The very fact that this commander was ok with Sikhs to parading on a Sikh holy day but bans church parades tells me enough about what the motivations are.

So if you don't like church parades don't go.  If you do, go.  If most people don't go they'll stop happening.   Let nature take its course but don't tell people what they can and can't do.  they only thing I'll agree to is that they should not be mandatory.  But in my experience, most members of my unit from a variety of faiths or non faiths go because it is a regimental activity and that's the way they see it.

Imagine an activity where people from different faiths and culture can get together to follow a tradition that may not be their own and manage not to kill each other.  Crazy world we live in.  Ban it before it spreads...

     
Optio

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 196,390
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,763
  • Freespeecher
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1064 on: October 17, 2019, 15:48:34 »
Quote
But most of all, in such small incremental strikes, does Canadian history and tradition lose strength.

Herein lies the problem. If we accept that history and tradition is meaningful, then we also need to  understand the history and context of things like church parades. Units have longstanding ties to churches and communities (think of "Freedom of the City"), and new soldiers will learn about the unit, its history and its place in the community with a church parade either on Remembrance Day or when going to the church where the colours are laid up. The fact the colours are laid up at a church and not a temple or mosque reflects the origins and history of the unit, and of Canada as a whole. Unless the Padre is also evangelizing as part of the church parade, normal people are going to treat the parade for what it is: establishing and deepening ties with a part of the community where the unit came from.

As a negative counter example, there is a Boer War monument in Victoria Park, London, which is essentially abandoned and ignored (the official Cenotaph is at the South West corner of Victoria Park). 1 RCR left decades ago, and none of the other units mentioned on the plinth have any connection to London either. The families of the dead may have moved away generations ago. The connection has been allowed to wither away and become lost over time. I can see the same thing gradually happening to the "Holy Roller" tank monument in the north of Victoria Park as WWII veterans from the First Hussars pass, although the unit does make an effort to continue remembrances there.

So stamping out history and tradition in the name of preventing "offence" to a small minority of individuals (who might not even be connected to the Armed Forces) is stupid and counter productive. The moments it takes to educate serving members will pay off in the longer term, and using that same time to educate civilians as to "why" we do what we do can also change that "support that is a mile wide and an inch deep" we get from the public. And if a local Temple or other place of worship wants to invite the unit for a visit or a parade, then more power to them and to the unit for accepting.

As an aside, I'll also mention that we are expected to learn more about religions and customs in places we deploy, and Padres are now tasked to do "Religious Leader Engagements", so cutting ourselves off from that source of information and experience here at home is just going to make the job even harder "over there". /rant
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 209,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,516
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1065 on: October 17, 2019, 16:23:47 »
Atheism is making a god out of not having a god.  It is still a religious conviction.  So for those who figure that no one should be compelled to attend a religious service great.  Just don't tell those who wish to that they can't.  As for religious parades they fall under the category of tradition: the same tradition history that requires officers to wear swords and requires little bits of rope to be attached to the sleeve and so on.  Tradition is a good thing and having a commanding officer who belittles tradition is bad; particularly when dealing with reserve formations who are often (no always) anchored to a community and cling to the community's ideals.  This commanding officer is demonstrating that he knows absolutely nothing about leadership.  imho

Sorry. Atheism is neither a god nor a religious conviction. It is a conviction that there is no deity and therefore a rejection in any belief of a deity or any religion based on one. That doesn't mean atheists can't respect individuals that do have beliefs or follow a religious practice. Personally I'm very selective. There are some religions which IMHO do not deserve respect because they have components to them which foster subjugation, inequality or violence.

I'm with PPCLI Guy on this one. Back in 2005 the USAF Academy was investigated for incidents of evangelical staff and cadets actively proselytizing.

Quote
The panel's investigation found a "religious climate that does not involve overt religious discrimination, but a failure to fully accommodate all members' needs and a lack of awareness over where the line is drawn between permissible and impermissible expression of beliefs." Evidence discovered during the investigation included antisemitic remarks, official sponsorship of a showing of the film The Passion of the Christ and a locker room banner that said academy athletes played for "Team Jesus."

The problem is that deeply devout leaders could use the hierarchical structure of the military to push their own religious beliefs on subordinates.

I'm not a great fan of accommodating any religious beliefs. The problem is where do you draw the line on what the system needs to accommodate? The fact of the matter is that there really can't be any line when one deals with such things as nebulous as religious beliefs. Any line is ultimately arbitrary. That said, I do recognize that some accommodations are necessary if we truly wish to be an inclusive society.

I don't buy the "tradition" argument either. There was a time when slavery was part of the "traditional Southern lifestyle". That's done with. Every tradition has a first day and a last day. We can create new "traditions" when we find some repetitive activity useful. We can end a tradition when its usefulness has expired or it becomes anathema to our modern culture or mores. Sometimes it takes great courage to say "this tradition needs to end" and take the steps to do so.

IMHO, religion is very much a private matter. Individuals in any organization, including the military, should have the opportunity to practice it, with a degree of reasonable accommodation. It should not be an official activity, even if only voluntary. People on this site constantly complain about unit COs wasting the troops time and training budget on grandiose "social" activities. My question is: why should the public fund salaries for soldiers to attend church parades?

Quite frankly I would suggest that, but for deployed troops, all religious functions in Canada should be an individual's private affair using local, civilian facilities and ministers. However, I do understand and acknowledge the usefulness of chaplains for deployed troops because they perform worthwhile functions that go far beyond mere religious services and quite frankly I haven't come up with any better alternative way of delivering those services.

 :stirpot:
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 16:29:53 by FJAG »
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 122,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,633
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1066 on: October 17, 2019, 16:37:32 »
FJAG, you are equating institutional state sanctioned slavery to a Unit's church parade?

If people were forced to go I could see the link.  If it was a hotbed of attempts to convert I could see the link.

The example is a little extreme.

I always took ours as an opportunity to see more of my unit's history (Like regimental artifacts) and participate in what I consider a social function (normally there is a reception after).  Our chapel is not of my denomination, I never felt like someone was trying to evangelize me and great efforts have gone into making everyone feel welcome.  That particular parish also takes great pride in being the regimental chapel and are great stewards and caretakers of our history.

If people stop going the tradition will die, and I'm sure for some parts of the CAF it has but for other parts it still happens.  Let nature take it's course.  We used to have a ladies' auxiliary.  but that stopped well before my time.  I'm sure it was a great thing at the time but it faded but not because someone engineered it.

Blatchford said it right.  No one is being harmed by this.
Optio

Offline FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 209,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,516
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1067 on: October 17, 2019, 16:45:24 »
FJAG, you are equating institutional state sanctioned slavery to a Unit's church parade?
...

No! No, I'm not.

What I am saying is that there is no magic in the word "tradition". Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that you have to keep following it blindly ad infinitum. What you need to do is to determine if it still plays a useful role in our current culture and then decide as to whether or not it should be kept on.

We don't bring soldiers home on their shields anymore like Spartans; we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans; we don't use the lash as a punishment anymore like the British did. "Traditions" change.

Do you get my point now?

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 520,555
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,760
    • The job.
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1068 on: October 17, 2019, 17:07:29 »
I recall some groans about church parades. Not about religious convictions. But, about the preparation of kit required.

We had ours up in Hillsburgh for some reason.

Offline dapaterson

    Mostly Harmless.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 469,090
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,945
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1069 on: October 17, 2019, 17:44:47 »
we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans;


No, that's what we have CFTPO for.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 122,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,633
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1070 on: October 17, 2019, 17:53:07 »
No! No, I'm not.

What I am saying is that there is no magic in the word "tradition". Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean that you have to keep following it blindly ad infinitum. What you need to do is to determine if it still plays a useful role in our current culture and then decide as to whether or not it should be kept on.

We don't bring soldiers home on their shields anymore like Spartans; we don't consult the entrails of chickens before a battle anymore like the Romans; we don't use the lash as a punishment anymore like the British did. "Traditions" change.

Do you get my point now?

 :cheers:

I did get your point.  I agree to an extent.  I just thought the slavery comparison a bit over the top.

 Harmless traditions though should be allowed to run their course.  I have no issue stopping traditional hazing, harassment and anything else that might harm someone.

 But this is an example of PC gone too far. 
Optio

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 209,660
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,803
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1071 on: October 17, 2019, 18:12:34 »
Sounds like we need to go back to this:



Then we can all look terrible together  ;D

Babies and bathwater....

Uniform uniforms are no bad thing - if the uniforms are well designed. 

Just like mental asylums are no bad thing - if the asylums are sympathetically managed.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

Offline quadrapiper

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 11,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 326
Re: Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society
« Reply #1072 on: October 17, 2019, 22:20:50 »
Quite frankly I would suggest that, but for deployed troops, all religious functions in Canada should be an individual's private affair using local, civilian facilities and ministers. However, I do understand and acknowledge the usefulness of chaplains for deployed troops because they perform worthwhile functions that go far beyond mere religious services and quite frankly I haven't come up with any better alternative way of delivering those services.
Not entirely sure why the Chaplaincy hasn't been shifted entirely to support that role: perhaps host a suitable number in e.g. Service or Medical formations. The need for active chapels providing duplicate services to the local community's places of worship is less clear.

Someone else made a comment about funerals, referring to those as entirely religious rites: one assumes that's entirely up to the deceased or their family, who might opt for a funeral both entirely secular and including whatever military presence/participation might be suitable.

Offline MCG

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 208,910
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,789
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1073 on: October 18, 2019, 10:16:02 »
A funeral is a religious rite.  There is no separate business there.  The sole purpose of the a soldier in an honour guard or pall bearer is to participate in the funeral rite.  It is completely integrated.  It is not some separate thing that just happens at the same time.

if we are going to go full on secular then soldiers should never be at any funeral in any official capacity unless it is devoid of any religious connotations.
Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

Offline Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 122,305
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,633
Re: 32 CBG commander forbids church parades
« Reply #1074 on: October 18, 2019, 10:36:05 »
Can you really not differentiate between a attending a funeral or memorial, where the purpose is to commemorate one or more fallen, from attending church, where the purpose is participation in religious ceremony/rite?  Others can't distinguish a religious event from a community event with religious/cultural injects reflective of the participants? And do people really believe some of the slippery slopes and absurd extrapolations in this thread? The next step after not attending church as a regiment is to cast off uniforms?  Really?

Anyway, this thread is about a reserve brigade's decision and one of the arguments in this thread is that the parades are about connecting with communities. If we are going to spend Class A days on a parade, lets spend those Class A days on a military parade out in the public where all members of the community can see and connect with the activity.  Let's not waste those days hidden away being sermonized in church parade which will only ever be noticed by an ever shrinking segment of the population that happens to have the correct religious affiliation.

Sure I can.  We either go all in or not.  That is my point.  But most funerals are religious (I'm not making up the definition of a funeral rite) and involve a place of worship where mass or whatever will be conducted.  Even those that are not religious still use practices borrowed from other faiths.  Burials, cremations whatever.  I've carried caskets in church in uniform and have been paid for it.  So yeah if it is just a commemoration or celebration of life then all fair but the moment you add religion then bad! 

Why are we picking on one thing and not the others?  This CO was ok with allowing participation in a Sikh holy day but it's not ok to have a unit participate in something they might have been doing annually for over a century?  It's virtue signalling.  Between that and stating that unless they find women to fill honouraries they won't fill the spots, do the math, add it up and it is a PC agenda gone too far.

If he had just said, church parades are not mandatory and class pay is not authorised but units can still participate as they see fit based on their history and heritage that would be one thing.  This is not that though. 

Optio