Author Topic: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread  (Read 1409172 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3850 on: September 24, 2020, 09:14:25 »
China looks to the skies as well:

https://spacenews.com/new-study-looks-at-space-power-competition-through-chinas-lens/

New study looks at space power competition through China’s lens
by Sandra Erwin — September 20, 2020

Quote
"China's Space Narrative" was released Sept. 17 by the U.S. Air Force Air University’s China Aerospace Studies Institute and the CNA nonprofit research center.
WASHINGTON — A new study by the U.S. Air Force’s university think tank confirms the widely held view that China’s anti-satellite weapons pose a national security threat to the United States. But the study also highlights China’s use of soft power and diplomacy as potentially powerful weapons that could undermine the United States.

"China's Space Narrative” released Sept. 17, was a joint project by the U.S. Air Force Air University’s China Aerospace Studies Institute and the CNA nonprofit research center.

“As the era of great power competition continues to evolve, we must understand the full breadth and depth of the competition, how they think, and how they are likely to act or react,” Brendan Mulvaney, director of the China Aerospace Studies Institute, writes in the introduction to the report.

CASI used publicly available native language resources to draw insights on how the Chinese view the U.S.-China space relationship.

“The two countries are in a long term competition in which China is attempting to become a global power, and part of this effort is being played out in space,” the study says.

The rest of the article discusses how China re-frames space issues in order to minimize the perception of their militarization, use of diplomatic tools to attempt to isolate the US on issues of space policy and even a discussion of how Chinese aerospace corporations should try to emulate SpaceX. Access to space resources could break multiple economic bottlenecks on Earth, so whoever can access this first will have a massive advantage (for example a single metallic asteroid a kilometer in diameter is thought to have about $22 trillion dollars in platinum group metals at current prices - even thought that amount of platinum would crash market prices, the availability of cheap platinum to use as industrial catalysts would certainly change multiple industries on Earth).
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3851 on: October 02, 2020, 14:10:56 »
More on Huawei's issues. It is very likely that as part of China's "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, planting this equipment in national infrastructures is or was part of a long term process of preparing the Battlespace. Coupling real time communications monitoring with the massive databases of individuals such as identified up thread would make link diagrams, analysis and targeting of individuals and institutions far easier for the Chinese, while the Western powers would be at a very asymmetric disadvantage with no comparable form of access to China.

https://news.sky.com/story/gchq-discovered-nationally-significant-vulnerability-in-huawei-equipment-12086688

GCHQ discovered 'nationally significant' vulnerability in Huawei equipment
The issue in Huawei's equipment was initially withheld from the Chinese company and not reported due to security concerns.
Alexander J Martin, technology reporter

Quote
Cyber security analysts tasked with investigating Huawei equipment used in the UK's telecommunications networks discovered a "nationally significant" vulnerability last year.

Investigators at the UK's Huawei Cyber Security Evaluation Centre (HCSEC) found an issue so severe that it was withheld from the company, according to an oversight report published on Thursday.

Vulnerabilities are usually software design failures which could allow hostile actors (in particular the Chinese state when it comes to Huawei) to conduct a cyber attack. They are not necessarily intentional and can't be seen as an indication of any hostile intent on the part of the developers themselves.

There is a hypothetical concern that Beijing could purposefully design some kind of deniable flaw in Huawei's equipment which it would know how to exploit - or that it could have been alerted to a potential attack vector once the issue was reported to Huawei.

The report explicitly states that the UK's National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) - a part of GCHQ - "does not believe that the defects identified are as a result of Chinese state interference", and adds that there is no evidence the vulnerabilities were exploited.

Instead, the agency reported that "poor software engineering and cyber security processes lead to security and quality issues, including vulnerabilities" - and that "the increasing number and severity of vulnerabilities discovered" is of particular concern.

While the article goes on about how this was not intentional, given the level of access that Huawei or the Chinese government would have over the equipment once the flaws were identified, including in the article's own words "Other impacts could include being able to access user traffic or reconfiguration of the network elements."

Given China's behaviours over the last decade, it is difficult to discount the idea that this was intentional after all, and provided a convenient and deniable "backdoor" to equipment installed as part of national 5G networks.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline FMoore7

  • Guest
  • *
  • 830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3852 on: October 02, 2020, 15:49:20 »
More on Huawei's issues. It is very likely that as part of China's "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, planting this equipment in national infrastructures is or was part of a long term process of preparing the Battlespace. Coupling real time communications monitoring with the massive databases of individuals such as identified up thread would make link diagrams, analysis and targeting of individuals and institutions far easier for the Chinese, while the Western powers would be at a very asymmetric disadvantage with no comparable form of access to China.

https://news.sky.com/story/gchq-discovered-nationally-significant-vulnerability-in-huawei-equipment-12086688

GCHQ discovered 'nationally significant' vulnerability in Huawei equipment
The issue in Huawei's equipment was initially withheld from the Chinese company and not reported due to security concerns.
Alexander J Martin, technology reporter

While the article goes on about how this was not intentional, given the level of access that Huawei or the Chinese government would have over the equipment once the flaws were identified, including in the article's own words "Other impacts could include being able to access user traffic or reconfiguration of the network elements."

Given China's behaviours over the last decade, it is difficult to discount the idea that this was intentional after all, and provided a convenient and deniable "backdoor" to equipment installed as part of national 5G networks.

Amazing.

It would have been like letting the burglar install the security system. Thank God the West has woken up to this egregious threat.

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 31,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 881
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3853 on: October 02, 2020, 15:53:14 »
the west minus Canada, so far!

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3854 on: October 02, 2020, 17:24:32 »
Amazing.

It would have been like letting the burglar install the security system. Thank God the West has woken up to this egregious threat.


Anybody with half a functioning brain could see the ploy for what it was, years ago.  It's only the politicians that have recently begun to catch on...  which I guess makes my comment about half a functioning brain null & void

Letting China manufacture and install our own telecommunication networks?  Or purchase and own our telecom companies, who then in turn install the infrastructure? 

There truly outta' be a "Criminally Incompetent" piece of legislation out there for national leadership  :facepalm:




Glad to see more & more pushback from the West in regards to this.
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3855 on: October 07, 2020, 14:04:57 »
Chinese action creates a counter reaction:

https://strategypage.com/on_point/2020100622010.aspx

On Point: For China, the Quad Is a Diplomatic and Military Double Whammy
by Austin Bay
October 6, 2020

Quote
This week's Quadrilateral Security Dialogue foreign ministers meeting in Tokyo signals that the so-called Quad has arrived as a global diplomatic combination. The Quad is already an Indo-Pacific military power.

For Beijing, the Quad's formation and solidification is a nightmare -- and China's communist government has only itself to blame.

In 2007, the Quad, at the behest of Japan, held its first informal meeting. At that meeting, Japan said all four nations regarded China as a disruptive actor in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. This common concern should spur close cooperation to confront it.

For several reasons, India downplayed the initial meeting. Many Indians valued their nation's Cold War-era "non-alignment" policy. Tight military cooperation with the U.S. might betray that legacy. Australia, the U.S. and Japan have long-term bilateral and trilateral defense relationships. Indian and Australian military contacts are close, but India prized strategic autonomy and was suspicious of mutual defense commitments.

Moreover, in 2007, India carefully avoided the appearance of actively countering China. Economic cooperation with Beijing had potential benefits. Plus, New Delhi and Beijing were trying to peacefully resolve their border disputes in the Himalayas.

What a difference 13 years make, especially a baker's dozen scarred by Chinese imperialist territorial expansion, intellectual theft, military buildup and lawless behavior. China's fake South China Sea islands bristle with weapons and violate the Philippines' and Vietnam's maritime zones. Beijing recently announced its new hypersonic missiles can smash Guam, a sovereign American territory. Human rights organizations accuse Beijing of genocide against Turkic Uighurs and ethnic Tibetans.

What a difference indeed. "Containment" of China is happening as the nations surrounding the South China Sea, the First and Second Island chains and the rest of the world react to Chinese activities. IF China were not behaving in such a bellicose manner, I doubt that tariffs, "decoupling" and the formation of groups like the Quad would have happened at all.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 88,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,222
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3856 on: October 07, 2020, 19:29:18 »
Meanwhile PM Trudeau et al. keep the muzzle on our cyber experts--note John Adams quoted in last para of excerpt:

Quote
Canada watchdog mum as U.K. agency finds security defects in Huawei gear

Canada’s cybersecurity watchdog is refusing to say whether it found the same security and software defects in telecommunications equipment from China’s Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd. that Britain’s cyberspy agency identified last week.

The British government’s National Cyber Security Centre, which oversees the vetting of Huawei gear and includes officials from Britain’s GCHQ signals intelligence agency, issued a report last Thursday citing ongoing security and software engineering problems with Huawei gear.

“Overall, the oversight board can only provide limited assurance that all risks to U.K. national security from Huawei’s involvement in the U.K.’s critical networks can be sufficiently mitigated long-term,” the report said.

The British cybersecurity agency said if an “attacker has knowledge of these vulnerabilities and sufficient access to exploit them, they may be able to affect the operation of a U.K. network, in some cases causing it to cease operating correctly.”

The British said they do not believe the “defects identified are a result of Chinese state interference.”

Canada’s Communications Security Establishment, which handles cybersecurity and oversees the testing of Huawei gear, would not say if it found similar defects.

CSE set up independent labs in 2013, staffed by security analysts, that test all Huawei equipment. Unlike the British agency, CSE does not release annual reports on these tests.

The agency told The Globe and Mail the security review program for Huawei equipment prevents it from releasing the results.

“While non-disclosure agreements prohibit CSE from disclosing further details of this testing process, Canadians can rest assured that the government of Canada is working to make sure the strongest possible protections are in place,” CSE said in a statement.

John Adams, who ran CSE from 2005-2012, told The Globe on Monday [Oct. 5] it is “logical” that the cyberspy agency would have found the same flaws as the British. Mr. Adams said he does not trust Huawei equipment and believes Canada should join its Five Eyes intelligence-sharing partners in banning the Chinese telecom giant’s equipment from next generation 5G mobile networks...
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-british-cyberagency-finds-security-defects-in-huawei-gear/

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3857 on: October 07, 2020, 23:20:14 »
Meanwhile PM Trudeau et al. keep the muzzle on our cyber experts--note John Adams quoted in last para of excerpt:

Mark
Ottawa


One thing I've learned over the years is that Canadian agencies/units/organizations dedicated to operations regarding national security are quite often the most mum on their exploits, yet incredibly proficient at their jobs.

A good example is our very own JTF2.  We don't hear much about them, but we know they are out there doing what needs to be done, and doing it exceptionally well.


The fact that CSE doesn't publicly announce their concerns, doesn't bother me.  I trust they are some pretty smart folks who know what to look for when it comes to this stuff.  And due to the 'political hostage' situation, I imagine anything they have to say that is China related will be behind closed doors for the time being.

If they were truly being muzzled or ignored, to the detriment of our national security - I imagine 'something' would be mysteriously leaked to the press that would instantly draw attention to what they wanted the attention on.


:2c:
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 75,520
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3858 on: October 08, 2020, 00:43:23 »
No one from the Cdn S&I community needs to leak anything. I doubt it would accomplish much aside from landing the member(s) in hot water.

Anyone that cares to look can already find enough open source reporting, as well as the published concerns of more prominent FVEY partners.

The problem is, does anyone, elected or otherwise, actually care enough to make an issue out of it? It's part of the reason that DND owns the old Nortel Campus now...Canada is a soft target.

 :2c:

Offline shawn5o

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 6,550
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 271
  • "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3859 on: October 08, 2020, 18:58:05 »
Australia seems to understand China and its actions


Canada's feckless government needs to show some spine on China
When dealing with an international bully, restraint is rarely effective. Neither is handwringing, or keeping your head in the sand

Author of the article:Derek H. Burney, National Post
Publishing date:Oct 06, 2020  •  Last Updated 2 days ago  •  6 minute read

A new geopolitical order is taking shape. The globe is rapidly realigning under American and Chinese spheres of influence and the pandemic has only raised the stakes. How can Canada finally get serious about its internal stability and external security so it can effectively play a role as a middle power? That is the question this National Post series will answer. Today, Derek H. Burney on what Canada can learn from Australia when it comes to dealing with Beijing.

Canada’s approach on China is feckless, completely hamstrung by concerns about the illegal incarceration of the “two Michaels” (Kovrig and Spavor). This situation, for which the government seems to have no practical solution, leaves us, as the late John Crosbie would observe, “naked as a newt” in dealing with a government in Beijing that is not only authoritarian but increasingly coercive on global affairs.

Meanwhile, the seemingly endless and well-funded extradition process involving Meng Wanzhou, the daughter of the founder of Huawei, is becoming more farcical by the day and may run inconclusively until the end of the decade.

In a recent letter to the prime minister I joined several other Canadians to suggest that the government propose to swap Meng for the two Michaels. That suggestion prompted moral outrage from the prime minister and others who claimed that it would violate the rule of law. None of the critics offered a practical alternative and yet all of them know that hostage swaps and other unusual means have been used countless times by many countries, including Canada, to resolve seemingly intractable international problems.

More at https://nationalpost.com/opinion/derek-h-burney-canadas-feckless-government-needs-to-show-some-spine-on-china
“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline YZT580

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 31,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 881
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3860 on: October 08, 2020, 22:05:43 »
Australia seems to understand China and its actions


Canada's feckless government needs to show some spine on China
When dealing with an international bully, restraint is rarely effective. Neither is handwringing, or keeping your head in the sand


In a recent letter to the prime minister I joined several other Canadians to suggest that the government propose to swap Meng for the two Michaels. That suggestion prompted moral outrage from the prime minister and others who claimed that it would violate the rule of law. None of the critics offered a practical alternative and yet all of them know that hostage swaps and other unusual means have been used countless times by many countries, including Canada, to resolve seemingly intractable international problems.

He starts by saying Canada should develop some spine and then he totally contradicts himself by saying we should do a prisoner swap and send her home which is where this thing all started in the first place.  Canada is in the same position as the US was in 1940 when it was sending iron, coal, and scrap steel to Japan where they were converting it into war materials: the elite were reaping the profits from marketing the very products that would shortly be killing their sons.  Our folks in Ottawa don't see any problem with trading with China.  They are addicted to saving a few pennies at the expense of their future and their freedom.  For 20 years or more we have been listening to the lie that China will become more westernised through contact: we just have to be patient.  The news says otherwise.  As the song says: Got along without you, before I met you gonna get along without you now.

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 88,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,222
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3861 on: October 13, 2020, 14:31:03 »
Pretty tough stuff from our foreign minister:

Quote
50th anniversary of Canada-China diplomatic relations

From: Global Affairs Canada
Statement

October 13, 2020 - Ottawa, Ontario - Global Affairs Canada

The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today issued the following statement:

“Today, Canada and China mark the 50th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations.

“In 1970, the Government of Canada took an international leadership position by extending a hand to establish diplomatic relations with China, despite our different systems of government.

“The reason was simple, and the rationale widely shared: the community of nations could not sustainably isolate one-fifth of humanity from its international institutions. Dialogue, as challenging as it was, had to prevail over ignorance and fear. 

“We continue to believe in the importance of our relationship. At the same time, this anniversary is an opportunity to reflect on the foundation of our bilateral relations and the path ahead. Indeed, 50 years on, Canada takes a sober view in examining our relationship, considering the importance of mutual respect and reciprocity, adherence to rules and principles, including human rights, and achieving results that are in Canadian interests. It is unacceptable that any citizen be arbitrarily detained. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor must be brought home. This is something for which all Canadians stand united. The use of coercive diplomacy causes Canada to re-examine its approach, with a focus on multilateral cooperation.

“As a Pacific nation, Canada recognizes that its future is tied to peace, stability and prosperity in the region. As we build a new framework for relations with China, Canada will work with partners to hold the Chinese government accountable to its international obligations. The common future of Canada and China depends on the rule of law, respect for rights and freedoms and for people in all their diversity. At the same time, we will continue to seek dialogue and cooperation where it makes sense to do so.

“The bedrock of our relations—in the beginning and as it is now—remains the people of Canada and China. Together, we share long-standing connections that took root well before the establishment of diplomatic relations. These connections and the extraordinary contributions of Canadians of Chinese origin to Canada will outlive political cycles and continue to bring diversity and depth to our relationship for decades to come.”
https://www.canada.ca/en/global-affairs/news/2020/10/50th-anniversary-of-canada-china-diplomatic-relations.html#shr-pg0

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3862 on: October 13, 2020, 18:54:28 »
Strategy page on the evolution of the PLA:

https://strategypage.com/htmw/htworld/articles/20201012.aspx

Forces: The Chinese Aspirational Army

Quote
On paper the Chinese army looks pretty impressive, with 78 combat brigades and nearly as many specialized brigades. Over the last decade the Chinese army has been converting its divisions to brigades, many of them independent brigades like the American Brigade combat teams. That conversion is still underway, although by now nearly all the regiments that formerly comprised the major subunits of divisions have been converted to brigades.

The task of turning all those new brigades into well-equipped and trained ones is still underway. There are three types of combat brigades. The most potent is the heavy brigade, each with about a hundred tanks and dozens of tracked IFVs (infantry fighting vehicles) plus detachments of engineers and other specialists. The problem with these heavy brigades is that not all of them have the latest tanks. China has not built enough of its most modern tank to replace all the older models. As more of the latest tank enter service heavy brigades receive them and have to go through months of training to learn how to get the most out of them.

Then there are the medium brigades that are mainly infantry in wheeled IFVs. These are similar to American Stryker brigades but China only has a few of those so far, so most still older IFVs rather than the latest “Stryker class” wheeled IFVs. The heavy and medium brigades often have up to 5,000 troops, including all the smaller specialist detachments that make these brigades the equivalent of a small division.

Finally, there are dozens of light infantry brigades. Many of these are simply infantry who are transported by truck but the light brigades include some mountain brigades and several air assault (via helicopter) brigades. The Chinese Air force has seven airborne infantry brigades (4,000 troops each and the navy has three marine brigades (6,000 troops each).

snip

While China wants an army that can perform as well as Western forces, they won’t get it until they convert to an all-volunteer force and upgrade initial combat training to Western standards. China is switching to Western training methods but is not yet willing to spend what it takes to pay all the troops what they are worth. Currently the two-year conscripts are paid are paid $30-40 a month. The lowest ranking NCO makes more than twice that and the top NCOs (Sergeant Major) makes ten times what a conscript makes. For an all-volunteer force pay for everyone would have to go up to maintain differences between rank. That would begin at the very bottom, where new recruits would make two or three times what they get now. Living conditions (housing and food) have been improving rapidly during the last decade but career troops need to make enough to support a family.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3863 on: October 13, 2020, 19:07:17 »
Those numbers are on a scale most western countries, minus the US, could even fathom.

And if you think the USMC was tired of being "America's 2nd Army..." -- PLAAF seems to have about as many infantry units as most Western countries.


I guess the good thing is that we'll never have to face off against China in an all-out ground war.  Geography forbids it.  India & Russia, maybe not so likely...


Like us, their geography dictates that they be an expeditionary force for the most part.
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 88,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,222
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3864 on: October 13, 2020, 19:18:10 »
Pretty tough stuff from our foreign minister:

Mark
Ottawa

And from PM Trudeau:

Quote
Trudeau vows to stand up to China’s coercive diplomacy

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Canada intends to work with allies to challenge China’s “coercive diplomacy,” and warned that its use of arbitrary arrests, repression in Hong Kong and detention camps for Muslim minorities is “not a particularly productive path[emphasis added, see end of post].”

In marking the 50th anniversary of relations between Canada and the People’s Republic of China, Mr. Trudeau spoke more strongly than ever before about Beijing’s increasingly repressive and aggressive actions at home and abroad.

“It has put a significant strain on China-Canada relations,” Mr. Trudeau told reporters when asked on Tuesday how relations had changed since his father, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, opened diplomatic relations with Communist China in 1970.

The Prime Minster, who has been hesitant to publicly criticize China, called attention to the arrests of Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, the crackdown on civil rights and the rule of law in Hong Kong, as well as the treatment of Muslim Uyghurs in Xinjiang province, where more than one million are being held in so-called education camps.

“We will remain absolutely committed to working with our allies to ensure that China’s approach of coercive diplomacy, its arbitrary detention of two Canadian citizens alongside other citizens of other countries around the world is not viewed as a successful tactic by them,” he said...
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says Canada intends to work with allies to challenge China’s “coercive diplomacy,” and warned that its use of arbitrary arrests, repression in Hong Kong and detention camps for Muslim minorities is “not a particularly productive path.”
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-trudeau-vows-to-stand-up-to-chinas-coercive-diplomacy/

As for "productive" our woke-ish Liberals still don't seem able to comprehend the mindsets of very hard men. Stalin and his CPSU saw the gulags (http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/) as in fact quite "productive" for the USSR from their point of view; no doubt Xi's CCP sees the camps for Uyghurs as equally productive for the PRC.

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3865 on: October 13, 2020, 19:30:08 »
And from PM Trudeau:

As for "productive" our woke-ish Liberals still don't seem able to comprehend the mindsets of very hard men. Stalin and his CPSU saw the gulags (http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/) as in fact quite "productive" for the USSR from their point of view; no doubt Xi's CCP sees the camps for Uyghurs as equally productive for the PRC.

Mark
Ottawa


If the rest of the world looks elsewhere for trading relationships, and builds up other countries to be the 'cheap crap manufacturer for Earth' - vastly deteriorating the world's trade with China - I have a feeling the CCP will find a way to replace Xi with someone more progressive.

Call me hopeful, or silly - probably both - but I doubt Xi will still be head of the CCP 3 years from now.   :2c:
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline MarkOttawa

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 88,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,222
  • Two birthdays
    • The 3Ds Blog
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3866 on: October 13, 2020, 19:43:29 »

If the rest of the world looks elsewhere for trading relationships, and builds up other countries to be the 'cheap crap manufacturer for Earth' - vastly deteriorating the world's trade with China - I have a feeling the CCP will find a way to replace Xi with someone more progressive.

Call me hopeful, or silly - probably both - but I doubt Xi will still be head of the CCP 3 years from now.   :2c:

Meanwhile Xi doing his best to Mao-ize his hold on power:

Quote
Xi Jinping to tighten grip on power with new rules for top policymaking bodies

   *Draft gives details of Xi’s scope as general secretary of the ruling Communist Party and how the top organs should operate
    *Observer says it’s part of a long-term project to make regulations on almost every issue, with personal power ‘always embedded’

China’s ruling Communist Party is expected to pass a binding regulation on how its policymaking bodies operate at a plenum later this month, a move that will further strengthen President Xi Jinping’s grip on power.

More than 300 Central Committee members will discuss and approve the regulation at the party’s annual political meeting to be held in Beijing in the last week of October. The committee is in charge of party affairs and passes major party decisions when it meets at least once a year.

A draft of the regulation published by state media on Monday [Oct. 12] gives more details of the scope Xi has as general secretary of the party than previous documents. It also covers how the party’s top decision-making bodies operate – the 25-member Politburo and the seven-member Politburo Standing Committee.

Deng Yuwen, a former deputy editor of Study Times, a newspaper affiliated with the party’s top academy, said the regulation gives Xi more control.

“This regulation has more details of how the Central Committee should work than the Communist Party’s constitution,” Deng said. “It further elevates the status [of Xi] above other Politburo Standing Committee members as the general secretary is more like a convenor under the constitution.”

...the general secretary has exclusive power to set the meeting agendas of the Politburo and its Standing Committee. Under the constitution, the general secretary only has the power to convene Politburo and Politburo Standing Committee meetings...
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3105380/chinese-president-xi-jinping-set-tighten-grip-power-new-rules


Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3867 on: October 14, 2020, 10:52:42 »
Those numbers are on a scale most western countries, minus the US, could even fathom.

And if you think the USMC was tired of being "America's 2nd Army..." -- PLAAF seems to have about as many infantry units as most Western countries.

I guess the good thing is that we'll never have to face off against China in an all-out ground war.  Geography forbids it.  India & Russia, maybe not so likely...

Like us, their geography dictates that they be an expeditionary force for the most part.

Perhaps luckily for us, China is a "Continental" power, so a great deal of its military force needs to secure the borders against bordering nations, and a lot of Chinese military and paramilitary power is devoted to internal security (i.e. deployed against its own population). Geographically, there are very few land routes the Chinese can use to deploy the PLA (crossing vast deserts, the Himalayan mountains or the frozen Siberian tundra would be a huge challenge for anyone), while free access to the Pacific and Indian oceans is constrained by the First and Second Island chains and the Straight of Malacca - China will have huge difficulties in force projection or being an "expeditionary force" against determined opposition.

The bigger threat to us is Chinese "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, using economics, cyber, propaganda campaigns, establishing nodes of influence in our Universities, business and among politicians, lawfare and other unconventional tools well below the threshold of military response to confuse and weaken us - death by a thousand paper cuts rather than an epic battle in the Western Pacific Ocean.

We have our own tools like tariffs and "decoupling", and certainly need to step up our own diplomatic, information and economic game alongside ensuring our military forces are capable of meeting potential threats from the PLAN and PLAAF (and possibly actions by PLA SoF units) to really meet the threat. While not the same as the Soviet Union, I suspect the CCP and its organs and structures are also brittle and can be made to fail, much like the USSR collapsed. But it will be a long and sustained process, and I don't think enough people are even aware of what is going on, even at the highest levels, to effectively marshal our resources in the West.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3868 on: October 14, 2020, 17:46:19 »
Perhaps luckily for us, China is a "Continental" power, so a great deal of its military force needs to secure the borders against bordering nations, and a lot of Chinese military and paramilitary power is devoted to internal security (i.e. deployed against its own population). Geographically, there are very few land routes the Chinese can use to deploy the PLA (crossing vast deserts, the Himalayan mountains or the frozen Siberian tundra would be a huge challenge for anyone), while free access to the Pacific and Indian oceans is constrained by the First and Second Island chains and the Straight of Malacca - China will have huge difficulties in force projection or being an "expeditionary force" against determined opposition.

The bigger threat to us is Chinese "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, using economics, cyber, propaganda campaigns, establishing nodes of influence in our Universities, business and among politicians, lawfare and other unconventional tools well below the threshold of military response to confuse and weaken us - death by a thousand paper cuts rather than an epic battle in the Western Pacific Ocean.

We have our own tools like tariffs and "decoupling", and certainly need to step up our own diplomatic, information and economic game alongside ensuring our military forces are capable of meeting potential threats from the PLAN and PLAAF (and possibly actions by PLA SoF units) to really meet the threat. While not the same as the Soviet Union, I suspect the CCP and its organs and structures are also brittle and can be made to fail, much like the USSR collapsed. But it will be a long and sustained process, and I don't think enough people are even aware of what is going on, even at the highest levels, to effectively marshal our resources in the West.


Couldn't agree with you more on every single thing you said  :)
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 75,520
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3869 on: October 14, 2020, 20:53:28 »
Perhaps luckily for us, China is a "Continental" power, so a great deal of its military force needs to secure the borders against bordering nations, and a lot of Chinese military and paramilitary power is devoted to internal security (i.e. deployed against its own population). Geographically, there are very few land routes the Chinese can use to deploy the PLA (crossing vast deserts, the Himalayan mountains or the frozen Siberian tundra would be a huge challenge for anyone), while free access to the Pacific and Indian oceans is constrained by the First and Second Island chains and the Straight of Malacca - China will have huge difficulties in force projection or being an "expeditionary force" against determined opposition.

The bigger threat to us is Chinese "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, using economics, cyber, propaganda campaigns, establishing nodes of influence in our Universities, business and among politicians, lawfare and other unconventional tools well below the threshold of military response to confuse and weaken us - death by a thousand paper cuts rather than an epic battle in the Western Pacific Ocean.

We have our own tools like tariffs and "decoupling", and certainly need to step up our own diplomatic, information and economic game alongside ensuring our military forces are capable of meeting potential threats from the PLAN and PLAAF (and possibly actions by PLA SoF units) to really meet the threat. While not the same as the Soviet Union, I suspect the CCP and its organs and structures are also brittle and can be made to fail, much like the USSR collapsed. But it will be a long and sustained process, and I don't think enough people are even aware of what is going on, even at the highest levels, to effectively marshal our resources in the West.

Well said.

Online Weinie

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 34,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 755
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3870 on: October 14, 2020, 21:17:09 »
Perhaps luckily for us, China is a "Continental" power, so a great deal of its military force needs to secure the borders against bordering nations, and a lot of Chinese military and paramilitary power is devoted to internal security (i.e. deployed against its own population). Geographically, there are very few land routes the Chinese can use to deploy the PLA (crossing vast deserts, the Himalayan mountains or the frozen Siberian tundra would be a huge challenge for anyone), while free access to the Pacific and Indian oceans is constrained by the First and Second Island chains and the Straight of Malacca - China will have huge difficulties in force projection or being an "expeditionary force" against determined opposition.

The bigger threat to us is Chinese "Unrestricted Warfare" doctrine, using economics, cyber, propaganda campaigns, establishing nodes of influence in our Universities, business and among politicians, lawfare and other unconventional tools well below the threshold of military response to confuse and weaken us - death by a thousand paper cuts rather than an epic battle in the Western Pacific Ocean.

We have our own tools like tariffs and "decoupling", and certainly need to step up our own diplomatic, information and economic game alongside ensuring our military forces are capable of meeting potential threats from the PLAN and PLAAF (and possibly actions by PLA SoF units) to really meet the threat. While not the same as the Soviet Union, I suspect the CCP and its organs and structures are also brittle and can be made to fail, much like the USSR collapsed. But it will be a long and sustained process, and I don't think enough people are even aware of what is going on, even at the highest levels, to effectively marshal our resources in the West.

The key points in your argument, (and the key takeaways) are economic, first and foremost, and then diplomatic and informational. Should China's economic development falter, (and we hold the key to this), Xi would be ousted fairly quickly. The CCP relies upon and is sustained on a promise of accelerating social and economic development for China. Should this be derailed, more pragmatic factions within the party would quickly emerge and oust the extant oligarchy. This would have several knock on effects that would be beneficial.
“In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it.”
– Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 202,685
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,905
  • Freespeecher
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3871 on: October 14, 2020, 22:33:04 »
The key points in your argument, (and the key takeaways) are economic, first and foremost, and then diplomatic and informational. Should China's economic development falter, (and we hold the key to this), Xi would be ousted fairly quickly. The CCP relies upon and is sustained on a promise of accelerating social and economic development for China. Should this be derailed, more pragmatic factions within the party would quickly emerge and oust the extant oligarchy. This would have several knock on effects that would be beneficial.

Absolutely. But the other side of the coin is we need to unfetter our own economic power, productivity and growth as well. Eliminating cancerous deficits and debts which burden entire generations to come, and looking carefully at the regulatory environment (I once read that the average small business owner in Ontario spends 30 hours each month doing paperwork and accounting for various levels of government - almost an entire working week is consumed in these tasks. If we are only working 3 weeks out of every month in productive labour, while our potential adversaries are devoting the entire month (or a much larger fraction), then we are already well behind the 8 ball without any adversarial effort at all....) are likely the two highest impact actions any Western government could take.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 53,750
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,376
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3872 on: October 15, 2020, 01:22:23 »
Absolutely. But the other side of the coin is we need to unfetter our own economic power, productivity and growth as well. Eliminating cancerous deficits and debts which burden entire generations to come, and looking carefully at the regulatory environment (I once read that the average small business owner in Ontario spends 30 hours each month doing paperwork and accounting for various levels of government - almost an entire working week is consumed in these tasks. If we are only working 3 weeks out of every month in productive labour, while our potential adversaries are devoting the entire month (or a much larger fraction), then we are already well behind the 8 ball without any adversarial effort at all....) are likely the two highest impact actions any Western government could take.


I don't mean to derail this thread at all. 

Thucy just brought something up in his post, and I was actually JUST having this conversation with a work colleague a few hours ago - so I thought I'd share my b****** crazy conspiracy theory here, just because it's related to the post above.



We talk a lot (in general, as a country) - as most other developed countries do - about our current national debt, borrowing, interest, and that we will never pay down our debt with the way things are being done now.  It's mentioned quite frequently by folks of all political and economic beliefs that we are passing our debt onto future generations, and the government will eventually no longer be able to afford the things it currently does as the debt will be unserviceable.

My absolutely ill-informed, nonsense filled, 'conspiracy theory' hunch on this is that... within 15 to 20 years, the entire world will have to seriously reform, and rethink, the way countries borrow & service national debt.  Aka - national debt will either be forgiven entirely, or drastically restructured.


No western or developed country can possibly hope to repay our national debt, even if our borrowing stopped right now.  At no point is any government going to post such record surpluses, year after year - while being able to afford everything it needs to - to be able to pay down any meaningful amount of their national debt.

Heck, the US is currently running a deficit of almost a TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.   :o


The conversation about national debt, and passing the debt onto future generations - that conversation I believe had more merit a few decades ago.  And maybe it still does.  I just don't see any way that any developed country would ever be able to pay back what they owe. 

And since it is not in the interest of ANY country on earth for another country to go bankrupt because of this situation, and most countries are in the same boat - I just have a feeling that a massive restructure of the system will take place before any country starts to seriously hammer away at their national debts.



Let me respectfully remind all of you - this is my completely uninformed opinion, and should be taken as such.      :Tin-Foil-Hat:
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 75,520
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,792
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3873 on: October 15, 2020, 02:49:22 »
Ok, I'll take the bait! Money will stop mattering once the masses have finished transferring what wealth and labour potential they hold up the food chain to the truly powerful, who will use it to consolidate their influence and control of valuable commodities as well as the high-skilled labour needed to sustain their lifestyles. In a generation or less, they won't need the average worker anymore, so this is probably one last push to squeeze Jane & Joe Public for what they can, before they are either offered just enough subsistence to discourage open revolt, or are thrown to the wolves completely. All the while ensuring people cut back on consumption in the meantime, gotta save the resources and environment for the people that really matter as well as their descendants, right?

Debt, climate change etc. Nah. Population will be the real struggle. And no one really wants to talk about that one. More people than ever before, and less need for them in society. I wonder what would be an easy way to control population that might present itself in the coming years?  :whistle:

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Happy?  ;D

Online Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 108,895
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,599
Re: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #3874 on: October 15, 2020, 12:44:49 »
>I wonder what would be an easy way to control population that might present itself in the coming years?

Prosperity.  Prosperous societies have lower birth rates.  Don't know exactly what all the mechanisms are - there are undoubtedly multiple factors in play - but I can easily suppose that most of them hinge on prosperity making all sorts of good things available - abundant inexpensive energy, technologically advanced medical care and pollution mitigation, reliable and easily available birth control, more leisure options, etc, etc.  Most people don't naturally want to have 12 kids and spend their lives scraping by; prosperity gives them options.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.