Author Topic: Canadian Forces Reservists behind fake letter warning of wolves being released  (Read 5449 times)

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Online ballz

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I have the same bias, for the same reason. There's not too many people sitting around upset that they won't have IA attachments on exercise with them for a while. Every time I had to work with them I would have traded them for an extra mag charger.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 22:38:30 by ballz »
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Offline Remius

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I'm pretty biased. Anytime I've been on exercise with the IA teams they've driven around and behaved like assholes and were untouchable. As in out of play so they spend all night dicking you around but you can't do anything about them.

Think you hit a great point. Canadians should never be targeted.

Yep. Especially your first para.
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Offline Remius

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I have the same bias, for the same reason. There's not too many people sitting around upset that they won't have IA attachments on exercise with them for a while. Every time I had to work with them I would have traded them for an extra mag charger.

Me too.  It’s like you, Jarnhammer and I have all seen the same movie or something.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Me too.  It’s like you, Jarnhammer and I have all seen the same movie or something.

If you watched a young IA cpl and mcpl attempt to critique a major's company defensive position in front of higher up's during an AAR it was the same ex :)
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Offline reveng

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For those of us who haven't really paid attention to CAF IA...is this just an evolution of the old PSYOPS/CIMIC "Tactical Operator"?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 23:00:40 by reveng »

Offline MilEME09

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For those of us who haven't really paid attention to CAF IA...is this just an evolution of the old PSYOPS/CIMIC "Tactical Operator"?

Thanks.

The two are considered two different entities now, and IA is once again under going another restructure. that said this sounds like IA Coy`s analyst's and officers may of gone a bit to far, and made mistakes.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline reveng

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The two are considered two different entities now, and IA is once again under going another restructure. that said this sounds like IA Coy`s analyst's and officers may of gone a bit to far, and made mistakes.

I seem to remember them as distinctly different roles, but wasn't sure if they'd been merged under "IA". Lots of PRes used to jump on tours doing CIMIC, PSYOPS, but most of the rank and file never really seemed clear on what they did, or would confuse them with source handlers/interrogators etc. Didn't these at one point fall under the "Area Troops" before the whole division debacle came about? Regardless, I have no doubt some filling these roles did good work in Afghanistan, I just sort of stopped hearing about it after that...

We live in a world that could no doubt benefit from IA capabilities, although I just don't get why they need to focus on handing out stupid flyers instead of focusing on the digital realm (like our adversaries do, 24/7/365) Is there any focus on that? Or just "boots on the ground"?

I'm pretty sure there's at least one person on here who is well versed in this stuff (and if you are reading this, I've always enjoyed your posts...)

Offline MilEME09

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CIMIC and PSYOPs are two sides of the same coin under the IA Umbrella. CIMIC more deals with the civil military cooperation side of a conflict. Psyops deals more on the military capabilities.


Example used from maple resolve last year. At the start of the EX the head of IA coy asked what the civilian price of a cow, a chicken, and a goat were and got a good laugh thats it. Fast forward a few days and a convoy had killed a farmers 5 cows, the farmer was now demanding 5 million in compensation. IA knew that the price per cow was only a few thousand, questioning why he wanted so much, psyops operators figures out that the civilian was funding insurgent activity against coalition forces and was an enemy SF informant.

Meanwhile CIMIC teams were going village to village and figuring out the needs of the towns and how helping towns may resolve conflict.


Its a lot more complicated then this but a lot of there work is behind the scenes.
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline CBH99

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I think it touches on some pretty deep sensitivities around how our military uses information in an age of disinformation, and general skepticism towards the good faith of the government, and of its coercive arms.

All of us here are possessed of the knowledge and experience to know to chalk this up to little more than Troops Are Dumb, but to the public they see the military - an opaque and often incomprehensible organization - engaging in deliberate information operations versus Canadians. They don't care about the intent, they care about the results, and the degree of immediate transparency.

On the military side, a handful of phone calls and a handful of hours would have arrived at the coarse truth of this, enough so that someone could get ahead of this and say flatly "Mistakes were made in the course of training, and we take ownership of that. Here's what went wrong, as exactly as we can tell right now. We'll be back to you soon, once we have more detail, to tell you exactly how it won't happen again".

We are living in paranoid times, and people will be quick to believe or suspect the worst - or at least to not rule it out as implausible. To us on this site, this is a fantastic 'that guy' story. To the general public, it's dark and suspicious and nefarious, and the onus is on the military to work hard to correct that.

Anything resembling state propaganda in a liberal democracy can and should be scrutinized heavily. In this case, it was very literally state propaganda, absent 'EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE' along the top. Rookie mistake, but one with strategic consequences for CAF's domestic image.


Well said Brihard, thanks.  Helps put it in a different perspective for me. 

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Offline Remius

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That was well said.  Reminds me of those “what my family thinks I do, what my friends think I do, what the public thinks I do and what I really do” memes.



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Offline daftandbarmy

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CIMIC and PSYOPs are two sides of the same coin under the IA Umbrella. CIMIC more deals with the civil military cooperation side of a conflict. Psyops deals more on the military capabilities.


Example used from maple resolve last year. At the start of the EX the head of IA coy asked what the civilian price of a cow, a chicken, and a goat were and got a good laugh thats it. Fast forward a few days and a convoy had killed a farmers 5 cows, the farmer was now demanding 5 million in compensation. IA knew that the price per cow was only a few thousand, questioning why he wanted so much, psyops operators figures out that the civilian was funding insurgent activity against coalition forces and was an enemy SF informant.

Meanwhile CIMIC teams were going village to village and figuring out the needs of the towns and how helping towns may resolve conflict.


Its a lot more complicated then this but a lot of there work is behind the scenes.

Which leads me to ask the question why reservists are filling a role like this in the first place, outside of an operational environment, unless someone at a higher level is off their rocker. Or can't find enough Reg F resources to justify the continuing existence of a specific capability like, you know, the Mortar Platoon  ::)

There's enough to do, on the armoury floor, mastering section attacks, gun drills etc.
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Offline Bread Guy

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Which leads me to ask the question why reservists are filling a role like this in the first place, outside of an operational environment, unless someone at a higher level is off their rocker.
Going WAY back (2005) here, and I'd love to hear anything more current, but previous discussion around these parts indicates that was (at least said to be) done because "Reservists would be able to "straddle the fence" between the military and the civilians, being both themselves, and having the mindset to work in both worlds."

That said, there's the other side, too ...
Quote
... Considering that almost everybody in the RegF relates to civilians every day, and that most of us live in civilian communities and not in PMQs, and that many of us belong to civilian clubs, groups, teams, volunteer fire depts,etc, and that the great majority of us went to school, high school or beyond with civilians, I think it is a bit inaccurate, if not to say unfair, to depict RegF soldiers as some kind of aliens who cannot relate to civilians in other countries. It is IMHO equally inaccurate to depict Res soldiers as being somehow posessed of divinely-given qualities that only they posess in order to do CIMIC.

It is worth remembering that until we began to formalize CIMIC as a Res job in the early part of this century, the CIMIC task was performed on every Roto by RegF soldiers. CIMIC is not a new invention discovered by LFRR. Sometimes it was just done by the coys/sqns/btys themselves, then later we started to create CIMIC cells for the Rotos. In all cases we did good work, and lots of it.

Secondly, I wonder how relevant the Canadian civil expertise of some Res CIMIC soldiers really is to countries and cultures such as Afghanistan, Rwanda, Mozambique, East Timor, etc. Our culture, language, religious observances, methods of civil governance, civil-military relationship and even our municipal technology are generally quite different in Canada from those we may experience in such places. CIMIC soldiers have to be trained, which means that a Res on his own merits is not necessarily more suited than a RegF soldier; rather, it is a question of training and temperament.

Do Res soldiers do a good job on CIMIC? Yes, unquestionably. Is a CIMIC a meaningful and useful task for the Army Res? Again, a resounding yes. In the US Army, for example, Civil Affairs is almost completely a Reserve task. (While the British Army, on the other hand, does not recognize CIMIC as a stand-alone entity but instead uses the same approach that we used to: the units do it themselves...). Should the Res keep this task? Yes-I am all for that.

But, IMHO, let us not indulge in stereotypical thinking about either RegF or Res soldiers by assuming that the latter are automatically better suited to the CIMIC task by nature of their status, or that the former are precluded by theirs ...
I think Brihard hit the nail on the head - there'll be dummies in any org chart, and it only takes a few to make mistakes to make the enterprise look bad, so to me, a big part of it comes back to what D&B also said about "leadership" needing to be weilded.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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I found this actual recording of Commander, 36 CBG.

https://youtu.be/ORvkElqw0QM?t=23

I don't think he's on here, but I think he'd get a chuckle out of that (he was my Tp Ldr 20-some years ago...).  I also know the RSM of the Rifles, and can almost picture the look on his face when he found out.   ;D

Offline CloudCover

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Next time they should use Krakens instead of Wolves.
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Offline dapaterson

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Next time they should use Krakens instead of Wolves.

That would be naval, not army, info ops...
Putting the *** in acerbic.

Offline Brihard

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That would be naval, not army, info ops...

Might the IA world be due for a bit of naval-gazing?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Might the IA world be due for a bit of naval-gazing?

 :rofl:

Although I think what you've described is a Tim Horton's donut ;)
"Now listen to me you benighted muckers. We're going to teach you soldiering. The world's noblest profession. When we're done with you, you'll be able to slaughter your enemies like civilized men." Daniel Dravot

Offline CBH99

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Next time they should use Krakens instead of Wolves.


If it is for training purposes, I'm all for the use of Werewolves.   :nod:

Since it doesn't change the outcome of the training being done, as the troops know it's for training - and if something like this happens again, the Army can far more easily say brush it off as a training exercise.


The same way we regularly engage forces from "Imaginationstan".
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Offline Weinie

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Next time they should use Krakens instead of Wolves.

We tried using CRCN...didn't work out so well.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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No need for my 'spec fire'; comments removed.  Issued myself a verbal warning.   :orly:
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 16:11:31 by Eye In The Sky »