Author Topic: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’  (Read 12374 times)

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Offline Brashendeavours

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #100 on: October 14, 2020, 10:14:38 »
They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.

Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.

As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.

Isn't the US plant pretty safe considering the US Army just awarded them the contract for the M18 (320)?
The modular design would also be an asset in terms of user fit, as well.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #101 on: October 14, 2020, 11:57:29 »
They need to buy new pistols and fast.  The Sig225 is absolute garbage as is the Browning mostly because they are old and have been put through the ringer.  It would be nice to have a pistol you know won't have a stoppage the minute you pull it out of the holster.  Sig226 is fine but for how much longer they are made remains to be seen.

Sig is also in financial difficulty and has recently closed their plant in Germany leaving just their American plant open.  No guarantee Sig will be a safe bet for any sort of pistol replacement.

As for requirements, double action or striker fired please.  The Browning is really unsafe when compared to a Glock or Sig.

I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.



The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #102 on: October 14, 2020, 14:10:06 »

The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.

Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2020, 14:21:13 »
Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.

Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.

While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #104 on: October 14, 2020, 16:30:21 »
Oh, believe me, they’ve been all over that and other major health and safety issues for a while. Most of the real work on major issues is happening quietly in the background.

Are you saying you want to come over and shoot my Glocks and Sigs so you can staff up some fancy pants report? I'm game :)
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Offline reveng

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #105 on: October 14, 2020, 16:38:44 »
Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.

While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.

Perhaps the institution should stand behind it's members, and authorize a subdued, standardized patch for wear. Doesn't need a flag, just the TBL on a black background or something.

Or they can just continue to piss their rank and file off. I guess that's the more politically and socially acceptable option.

Offline Haggis

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #106 on: October 14, 2020, 16:45:11 »
I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.

You know that I'm a huge fan of the Browning HP. I've shot the sued ones for years.  I own one and have put thousands of rounds through it and only suffered one broken part (extractor).  That being said, it's time has come (heck, it's time had come when I joined!)  It's still a great pistol and, in properly trained hands, can be very effective.

The Americans went to the Sig and the Brits went with Glock, all in a space of less than a decade.  Remember how long it took to get the CAF out of OG107 and into CADPAT?  That record still stands and has to be broken by the pistol procurement project.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #107 on: October 14, 2020, 16:55:34 »
You know that I'm a huge fan of the Browning HP. I've shot the sued ones for years.  I own one and have put thousands of rounds through it and only suffered one broken part (extractor).  That being said, it's time has come (heck, it's time had come when I joined!)  It's still a great pistol and, in properly trained hands, can be very effective.

The Americans went to the Sig and the Brits went with Glock, all in a space of less than a decade.  Remember how long it took to get the CAF out of OG107 and into CADPAT?  That record still stands and has to be broken by the pistol procurement project.

Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...

Offline Haggis

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #108 on: October 14, 2020, 17:06:28 »
Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...

But you eventually got your whirlybirds.  I was told over forty years ago that we would have American M9 pistols by 1985.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #109 on: October 14, 2020, 17:25:28 »
But you eventually got your whirlybirds.  I was told over forty years ago that we would have American M9 pistols by 1985.

It was a plan to avoid the problematic M9.  Well-played Canada! :nod:


For the off-topic record, P320 is very nice (although I’d actually like the HK VP9)

Offline reveng

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2020, 17:35:21 »
Cough Maritime Helicopter Project cough...

Is it correct to say that Canada went it's own way with the Cyclone, and ignored the tried and true options already in NATO service? Was it that none of the other options met the legitimate requirements of the MH community, or were their other factors at play?

Makes me wonder if we will ignore the examples of others, and "go our own way" when it comes to a pistol replacement.

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2020, 17:50:34 »
Perhaps the institution should stand behind it's members, and authorize a subdued, standardized patch for wear. Doesn't need a flag, just the TBL on a black background or something.

Or they can just continue to piss their rank and file off. I guess that's the more politically and socially acceptable option.

Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?

Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.

Offline MJP

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2020, 18:17:13 »
Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?

Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.

It is a valid point and despite TBL being around much longer it is one of those societal wedge issues that has percolated up from our Southern neighbors an tainted its original good intentions.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2020, 18:59:20 »
Be careful picking the hill you want to die on.

While I understand the memberships' stance on the patch, its not part of the issue uniform as far as I know. As a former member of the CAF I can also understand the institution's stance on this as well.

The law is on the union’s side courtesy of PSLREB case law (out of CBSA, actually) on members wearing a sign of support for their union.

This is obviously an issue that is of value almost entirely for its symbolism- but things have gotten bad enough that the symbolism of the (brand new, don’t forget) standing up for members in a way this organization hasn’t seen before matters. Management picked a fight that allows the union to back members and to flex some labour law that works in its favour- and also to fire a shot across management’s now about making pronouncements without consultation. That’s a big part of the issue here.

The patch issue is minor in its own right, but it’s a proxy issue for bigger stuff.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Haggis

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2020, 19:27:21 »
The law is on the union’s side courtesy of PSLREB case law (out of CBSA, actually) on members wearing a sign of support for their union.

That being said, some of the accoutrements provided for us to wear are ill conceived and look quite unprofessional. The fact that they are all NDP orange doesn't help portray an apolitical stance.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 19:33:15 by Haggis »
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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2020, 20:00:18 »
You ask if its a hill worth dying on.....that question can also be asked of management.   For the first time some of them may have to account for decisions that are made only to piss off the good men and women who want to do the best job possible.
I know another organization who could use a helping of that....
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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2020, 20:38:59 »
I know ardent defenders of the Browning will tell you it's not the pistol it's the mags but I don't think that's 100% accurate. I've bought high end Browning mags at over $80 a pop and they jammed right along side the issued stuff. I've also recently seen new (lets say previously un-issued) Brownings issued with cracked parks.



The RCMP union might want to consider drawing a line in the sand over their issued pistols while they're fighting the patch fight.

The first time I held one of our Brownings was in 1981. before I put the mag in, I gave a little wrist wiggle shake. It rattled like two BBs in an Altoids tin. I was not encouraged for my first time using a cool guy gun. I happily went back to my C2.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2020, 21:10:00 »
That being said, some of the accoutrements provided for us to wear are ill conceived and look quite unprofessional. The fact that they are all NDP orange doesn't help portray an apolitical stance.

Oh, certainly. But what’s of interest to NPF is the legal ruling, not the orange shoelaces. Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2020, 21:33:25 »
Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.

Made them look foolish. The taxpayers care about response times. 

« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 21:37:02 by mariomike »
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Offline Haggis

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2020, 22:01:58 »


Oh, certainly. But what’s of interest to NPF is the legal ruling, not the orange shoelaces.
I'm not a huge supporter of our union after how they showed their disdain for veterans.  On the union "colours" issue, while crossing back into Canada my wife remarked that the union patch that the BSO was wearing looked unprofessional and the patch  sent the wrong message ("I keep guns out of Canada - with or without a contract.")

Nor are we talking SPVM clown pants here.
I remember those.  Completely over the top.

I work with two former SPVM officers who spoke often about the power of their union.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #120 on: October 14, 2020, 23:32:42 »
Or maybe instead of a stupid piece of meaningless flair they can just support their workers properly?

Honestly don't understand why any cop would want to wear a TBL patch after it got tainted through association with a bunch of different white supremacists groups in the US (and in Canada to a lesser extent). Even if that's not the intended meaning, it really doesn't matter. A union patch that incorporated it might be different enough, but on it's own it is still a giant F U against any reconciliation effort.

More on that 'Nazi' thing:

The Short, Fraught History of the ‘Thin Blue Line’ American Flag

The controversial version of the U.S. flag has been hailed as a sign of police solidarity and criticized as a symbol of white supremacy.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/06/08/the-short-fraught-history-of-the-thin-blue-line-american-flag
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #121 on: October 15, 2020, 06:24:02 »
Is it correct to say that Canada went it's own way with the Cyclone, and ignored the tried and true options already in NATO service? Was it that none of the other options met the legitimate requirements of the MH community, or were their other factors at play?

Basic summary. Canada was to get the Cormorant helicopter in the 90s to replace the Sea King. Chrétien said we didn't need a 'cadillac' of helicopters and cancelled the project (at a cost of about 160 Million in penalties) after it had been accepted and we only got a few for search and rescue. The Cyclone was then selected even though it didn't exist around 2004-2005, and the first ones weren't delivered until 2015. A lot to read on for that disaster of a procurement. Actually the original procurement went well, it was the government playing games that didn't.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #122 on: October 15, 2020, 08:00:59 »
I'm not a huge supporter of our union after how they showed their disdain for veterans.  On the union "colours" issue, while crossing back into Canada my wife remarked that the union patch that the BSO was wearing looked unprofessional and the patch  sent the wrong message ("I keep guns out of Canada - with or without a contract.")
I remember those.  Completely over the top.

I work with two former SPVM officers who spoke often about the power of their union.

OK there are no stupid questions - what is SVPM?
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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #123 on: October 15, 2020, 08:07:50 »
OK there are no stupid questions - what is SVPM?

Service de Police de la Ville de Montréal.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 08:12:17 by Haggis »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #124 on: October 15, 2020, 08:44:42 »
Toronto emergency services got a one-hundred year head start on unionization.

I am certainly not condoning, or suggesting, labour action. But, I was around long enough to remember the sick outs, working to rule, and work slowdowns.

Regarding the Montreal "clown pants". They broke the rule that our management and union both agreed on: Don't ever embarrass the job.



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