Author Topic: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21  (Read 61953 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chris Pook

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 218,870
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,073
  • Wha daur say Mass in ma lug!
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #500 on: August 24, 2020, 21:31:22 »
Funny how the universe throws coincidences your way.

Just after I scanned some of the this discussion earlier today I was working on another project.  And this came to my eye.

Quote
"They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion."

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

I recall seeing, upthread, somebody saying something about property rights not be real rights, not like human rights.  Sorry I can remember who offered that but I felt compelled.

To whomever said it.  I suggest that that assertion is a statement of belief.  It is an opinion.  It is untestable and thus unresolvable.  I'm sure that Smith and Hume, Rousseau and Voltaire, Locke, Hobbes and Hutchison have all weighed in on the issue and found each other equally unpersuaded.

That is why issues are best resolved not on a standard of rightness but simply community opinion - justices of the peace, juries, parliament, general populace - the answer is what the community wishes, as determined by one person more than the other side.  For the time being.  You can ask the question again during the next parliament.

As I assert my belief and state my opinion.   :cheers: :whistle:
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

"If change isn’t allowed to be a process, it becomes an event." - Penny Mordaunt 10/10/2019

“Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards” ~ Soren Kierkegaard

ignoramus et ignorabimus

Offline X Royal

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 21,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 608
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #501 on: August 24, 2020, 21:44:57 »
What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 179,580
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,622
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #502 on: August 24, 2020, 22:07:16 »
That's because no politician will touch the issue with a ten foot pole.  If I remember correctly it was the Conservatives under Kim Campbell that tried to regulate it, but it died with the election.

It would be interesting if the Supreme Court ever found that unborn babies were persons, and the women's rights argument went completely out the window.  It wouldn't be completely unprecedented, women themselves have only been legally considered to be persons for less than 100 years in Canada.

I was just about to say the same thing. the current definition of life is legally neat, but not much else. A science based approach would blow it out of the water. However such a ruling has massive consequences beyond abortion. if the mother is not willing able to protect a fetus that is considered a person, then it would be up to the State to do so. Thinking how the State would protect that fetus if it had to remain in the Mom is not pretty, drug the mom and keep her in a induced coma? Two separate set of rights within the same body will get messy. Not to mention child support will start prior to birth as well. I can guarantee you that without an outside force making it impossible to ignore, no major political party is going there any time soon.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 951,175
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,760
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #503 on: August 24, 2020, 22:09:49 »
What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.
Last time I looked, any votes potentially syphoned from the Tories were not close to changing the outcome of any riding in the last election either negatively or positively. Bernier overestimated how many diehard libertarians there were in the Tories that would follow him to the PPC. Maybe if the ridings were closer they'd matter, but likely only in popular vote which means nothing in Canadian elections except to partisans looking for shallow victories.

Likely going to be the same story for Wexit. They'd have to pull 30% support in most ridings out west to even put the Tories in danger.

Offline lenaitch

  • Member
  • ****
  • 9,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 141
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #504 on: August 24, 2020, 22:19:11 »
Nope.  The PM must be a MP as they are the head of government.


https://www.canada.ca/en/privy-council/topics/structure/machinery-government/westminster-government.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system


EDIT: An MP is a Member of Parliament, which includes the Senate.  But Senators have only been named PM under exceptional circumstances; it is normally a member of the House of Copmmons.

I see nothing in the links that supports the requirement that the PM must be an MP or even a Senator, and am not aware of any legal requirement, either in the Constitution or subordinate law.  True, that for all practical purposes, it has become a de facto requirement.  The nation and the reality of party politics would not stand for a PM that could not participate in the proceedings of the House.  As well, there is no doubt legislation regarding security, intelligence, etc. that would hinder access.

Our parliamentary system is based on tradition and precedent built up over hundreds of years with respect to Westminster.  In my opinion that is both its strength and weakness.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 337,765
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,882
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #505 on: August 24, 2020, 22:55:30 »
What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.

Didn’t miss that at all. I made note of how that may matter, but not in the way they want it to.

Last time I looked, any votes potentially syphoned from the Tories were not close to changing the outcome of any riding in the last election either negatively or positively. Bernier overestimated how many diehard libertarians there were in the Tories that would follow him to the PPC. Maybe if the ridings were closer they'd matter, but likely only in popular vote which means nothing in Canadian elections except to partisans looking for shallow victories.

Likely going to be the same story for Wexit. They'd have to pull 30% support in most ridings out west to even put the Tories in danger.

Assuming every PPC vote came from The CPC, the PPC vote splitting resulted in six ridings going Liberal instead of CPC. It didn’t have any impact on the parliamentary balance of power.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 106,800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,592
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #506 on: August 24, 2020, 23:06:47 »
The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Halifax Tar

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 58,078
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,114
  • Ready Aye Ready
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #507 on: August 25, 2020, 06:45:06 »
The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.

You are on point.  But I see it as a hostile take over of the NDP position and policies, as well as an extreme left wheel by the Liberals.  After this fall it behooves both the NDP and Liberals to combine, they would be unstoppable, the conservative movement just isn't big enough in Canada.  The Liberals may bleed a few Blue Libs but I don't see that having much of an impact.

Just my :2c:
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way

Online LittleBlackDevil

  • Member
  • ****
  • 7,160
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 219
  • Hostium acie nominati
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #508 on: August 25, 2020, 10:51:55 »
The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.

Not sure it would be much of a fight, the NDP will just cease to exist.

Unfortunately I think Halifax Tar is right that a united left would be nigh unstoppable. Even if the CPC became the "centrist" party, I think that the yard sticks have moved so much to the left and as things get worse economically due to the spending binge of the Trudeau Liberals, looking at other countries that went down this road there's little stomach for the "austerity" measures that a more reasonable party would have to impose.

Offline Donald H

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 1,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 329
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #509 on: August 25, 2020, 11:37:27 »
Good question.

I don't think there's an easy, clear-cut answer because SoCons are not all in agreement on what constitutes "social conservatism". And as I think you allude to in asking whether it exists, it has changed over the years as well. I would say that, broadly-speaking, "the social conservative's position" is pro-life/anti-abortion at minimum and to some extent. That, frankly, may be the common denominator. I think generally a favour for the traditional nuclear family and an opposition to marriage that does not fit that paradigm. I don't think any SoCon would actually advocate making homosexuality illegal, but they would object to LGBTQ propaganda being taught in schools (opinions will differ on what constitutes "propaganda" and what is necessary stuff for children to learn in school).

That was well stated IMO LBD. I thought for a moment you were going to point out some area of disagreement with my 'socially' Liberal opinion on LGBTQ rights, but then you went and qualified your position, which left nothing to disagree with.

Quote
For myself, I agree with Navy_Pete in his distinction between anti-abortion and pro life, broadly (although he and I may disagree on to what extent government can and should be involved in the pro-life things he lists). As a SoCon myself I certainly would prefer to see an approach that attempts to tackle the factors that make people want to have abortions by building the economy, giving support to single mothers, etc. As stated earlier in this thread, simply outlawing abortion is at best a fool's errand that would never accomplish anything positive no matter what side of the spectrum you're on.

Exactly! Social correctness is a Canadian thing now and differs little from party to party. Another reason why Canada leads the world in "quality of life"!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Online Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 186,885
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,398
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #510 on: August 25, 2020, 12:52:55 »

A good start for Mr. O'Toole.

I for one will be paying attention.  So far I like what he says.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/o-toole-conservative-leader-vision-1.5698713
Optio

Offline Donald H

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 1,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 329
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #511 on: August 25, 2020, 13:48:06 »
A good start for Mr. O'Toole.

I for one will be paying attention.  So far I like what he says.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/o-toole-conservative-leader-vision-1.5698713

Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Online Remius

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 186,885
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,398
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #512 on: August 25, 2020, 14:02:24 »


A good tactic.

Put all of that the rest early. 
Optio

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 54,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,153
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #513 on: August 25, 2020, 15:03:21 »
Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

He also previously had made some noises in the opposite direction.  It's almost like he's a politician playing both sides of the fence.. that would be unheard of.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-social-conservative-leadership-1.5613399

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 272,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,335
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #514 on: August 25, 2020, 15:10:41 »
Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

Disaffected Socons can always vote for the LPC leader, next time. He’s personally pro-life, even if his party is pro-choice.

Offline Donald H

  • Banned
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 1,900
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 329
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #515 on: August 25, 2020, 15:37:25 »
He also previously had made some noises in the opposite direction.  It's almost like he's a politician playing both sides of the fence.. that would be unheard of.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-social-conservative-leadership-1.5613399

Yes of course Pete, but we have to take him at his word until he blows the cover. Still, it's hopeful isn't it!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 252,817
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,135
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #516 on: August 25, 2020, 16:07:30 »
Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

Not a hard stretch as society has pretty much accepted that pro choice and LGBTQ recognition is here to stay and can't be reversed.

Its like trying to get the genie back in the bottle.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 73,575
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,776
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #517 on: August 25, 2020, 16:26:56 »
Maybe it's just me, but I don't find O'Toole very inspiring. I would have preferred Leslyn Lewis. She's fresh and I think could have put Trudeau in his place. I hope she runs again. If that makes me a nut job or a SoCon, so be it.

Otherwise, I think the only chance for Canada is to hope that the LPC one day comes back to centre and embarks on some kind of fiscal turnaround like they did in the 90's.

I'm all for making Canada a better place, but it has to be sustainable. Will we end up with "The Just Society" or just a failed state? I guess time will tell.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 151,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,865
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #518 on: August 25, 2020, 16:56:38 »
Not a hard stretch as society has pretty much accepted that pro choice and LGBTQ recognition is here to stay and can't be reversed.

Its like trying to get the genie back in the bottle.

Quite right. And by stating it clearly and unequivocally first and right off the bat, he takes that completely off the table for the Libs to use against him, as they did with AS.

Smart politics if you ask me.

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 252,817
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,135
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #519 on: August 25, 2020, 16:58:03 »
Quite right. And by stating it clearly and unequivocally first and right off the bat, he takes that completely off the table for the Libs to use against him, as they did with AS.

Smart politics if you ask me.
I'm all for making Canada a better place, but it has to be sustainable. Will we end up with "The Just Society" or just a failed state? I guess time will tell.

Here in lies the question. Lets hope that saner heads prevail and learn that a failed drama teacher isn't exactly a good candidate for the top elected office in the nation.

Stephen Harper also stood up in Parliament and declared Quebec to be a distinct society within Canada - which it is. The same can be said of First Nations and Metis people.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 17:00:46 by Hamish Seggie »
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 54,110
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,153
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #520 on: August 25, 2020, 17:19:33 »
Yes of course Pete, but we have to take him at his word until he blows the cover. Still, it's hopeful isn't it!

Yeah, it'd be nice to have a proper opposition leader and a genuine alternative, but withholding my optimism until the dust settles and he is in the role for a bit. Will be interesting to see what happens to the party.

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 106,800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,592
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #521 on: August 25, 2020, 17:25:07 »
>Otherwise, I think the only chance for Canada is to hope that the LPC one day comes back to centre and embarks on some kind of fiscal turnaround like they did in the 90's.

The fiscal turnaround started in the 80s.  The LPC contribution was to make some spending cuts to pull the net surplus date forward by a couple of years.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline shawn5o

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 6,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 268
  • "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #522 on: August 25, 2020, 19:18:54 »
I believe the fight for the CPC will not be with the left but the other 2 right parties the PPC and Wexit in the next election.
Vote splitting may be their downfall.

Hi X Royal
I think you nailed it

As LBD wrote, the PPC is essentially "DOA".


Maxime Bernier says Erin O'Toole is 'Liberal-lite,' unlike his People's Party
The assault on O'Toole's conservative credentials came only hours after the former military officer, lawyer and cabinet minister won the Conservative leadership

National Post

_____

Interesting article and Jay Hill has a compelling argument

WEXIT suffered a blow with the election of O'Toole as Tory leader
Western alienation got top billing from O'Toole during his first conversation with the PM on his first full day as leader of Canada's official Opposition


Licia Corbella
Aug 25, 2020  •  Last Updated 11 hours ago  •  4 minute read

Calgary Herald









“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline Brad Sallows

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 106,800
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,592
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #523 on: August 25, 2020, 23:20:16 »
It can be trying, sometimes, to politely tolerate people who want to deny you your pastimes while undoubtedly being ready to object if you tried to deny them theirs.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Drallib

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 5,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 211
    • Making a Pilot in the RCAF
Re: CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21
« Reply #524 on: August 26, 2020, 10:45:45 »
Part of the problem is this narrative that's pushed where if you're anti-abortion then you're this religious nutbar who probably hates women's rights.

In Canada abortion is legal at all stages of the pregnancy. Some people are uncomfortable with that.
The abortion issue falls under the mantra you're entitled to your own opinion as long as it agrees with mine.

That's the thing, with "women's rights", what about that baby's rights? The right for them to grow and continue to live inside a woman until they're born? Why is it only until they're not attached to someone that they're no longer allowed to be killed legally? (Just my opinion. Not looking for a debate.)

I suppose I would be one of those "religious nutbars" who gives the answer "because God" when it comes to same-sex marriage, because let's be honest, if you don't believe in the Bible then why would you care about who has sex with who, or who gets drunk at the bars, or who goes to see strippers at the club, etc...
But just as I see same-sex marriage/relations as a sin "because God", so is getting drunk and so is lust, and you don't see me protesting at bar or clubs.

I wasn't sure how to express my views on this, but yes I'm a "SoCon", but I wouldn't push same-sex relations to be illegal. Punishing people for acting on their feelings/attractions isn't going to make them believe in God.

Also, I do think firearms should be regulated. Let's keep people safe. But I do love sending rounds down range, and I'm sure there's a way to regulate them without a complete ban.

I don't think there's a large majority who share my views, thats okay. Part of demoncracy is having different opinions but being okay with losing every time.