Author Topic: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter  (Read 8955 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2019, 14:09:35 »
The more I look at our casualties from our latest unpleasantness. I find myself wondering how many of them could have been avoided if only we had more Chinooks and had them earlier.
I'm curious as to the percentage of those wia/Kia o  ground based resupply operations as opposed to other operations.


GK, if you look at the IED WIA/KIA stats, there is a statistically significant decrease after the 147Ds showed up in Dec08/Jan09.

Offline Colin P

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2019, 14:25:47 »
Getting rid of the Chinook was horribly stupid idea.

Offline Strike

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2019, 14:30:38 »
The more I look at our casualties from our latest unpleasantness. I find myself wondering how many of them could have been avoided if only we had more Chinooks and had them earlier.
I'm curious as to the percentage of those wia/Kia o  ground based resupply operations as opposed to other operations.

There are a whole bunch of people who are still alive because of the speed of the Chinooks operating in Mali right now.
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Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2019, 16:42:07 »
Getting rid of the Chinook was horribly stupid idea.

I'd like to think that there is a special place in hell for.those brass hatted morons who made that decision.
Perhaps having to suffer every death and.feel the pain of the casualties of perhaps having every dollar they saved shoved down their throats.


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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2019, 17:19:12 »
I have a lot of fond memories of the sh*thook. It is a versatile aircraft. I think the tilt rotor may be the future but lets keep the Hook around just in case.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2019, 18:02:06 »
And over forty years ago, one of our early Chinooks.


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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2019, 18:24:22 »

Below the old CASR take on the Twin Otter.

https://defencemuse.wordpress.com/2017/06/09/twin-otters-for-twin-otters-buying-new-makes-financial-sense-so-does-adding-similar-guardian-400-surveillance-aircraft-to-the-mix/


https://defencemuse.wordpress.com/2017/06/09/twin-option-for-the-twin-otters-simple-solutions-are-often-the-best/

With regards to the Chinook's I believe I read on CASR as well that they were sacrificed in favor of mothballing Huey's??? The new Bell tilt rotors and SB-Defiant sure look interesting/promising going forward

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2019, 21:47:00 »

With regards to the Chinook's I believe I read on CASR as well that they were sacrificed in favor of mothballing Huey's???

CSAR was wrong.  The Twin Huey’s flew until 1997.

The decision to kill the Chinooks was made in 1990 by the Army, or more accurately, then FMC (Force Mobile Command).  FMC at that point was responsible for funding land aviation, not Air Command, and FMC chose not to spend the $400M required to rebuild the seven remaining C-model Chinooks to D-model configuration.

Fortunately 17 years later, Chinooks were brought back albeit in the form of ‘well-seasoned’ D-models approaching the end of their useful life, then a few years later in a state-of-the-art version that is the envy of many.

Regards
G2G

Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2019, 22:45:33 »
CSAR was wrong.  The Twin Huey’s flew until 1997.

The decision to kill the Chinooks was made in 1990 by the Army, or more accurately, then FMC (Force Mobile Command).  FMC at that point was responsible for funding land aviation, not Air Command, and FMC chose not to spend the $400M required to rebuild the seven remaining C-model Chinooks to D-model configuration.

Fortunately 17 years later, Chinooks were brought back albeit in the form of ‘well-seasoned’ D-models approaching the end of their useful life, then a few years later in a state-of-the-art version that is the envy of many. I

Regards
G2G
Quite frankly the only thing wrong with the Chinook,is that there are not enough of them.
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Offline Spencer100

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2019, 20:39:29 »
As far as self protection and other issues are concerned, the Cessna 208B Caravan is in operational use by several air forces, and can be adapted to carry weapons like the Hellfire missile. Unarmed the Caravan is also a pretty heavy duty load hauler and can be considered a 21rst century version of the Twin Otter (including the ability to fit floats and skis if required).

Of course most of these air forces use the Caravans as utility transports and the occasional support aircraft in low intensity conflicts. A deployment like Mali would be the closest equivalent for us.

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Offline Loachman

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2019, 21:15:04 »
It still adds nothing useful. Our prime role is medevac. Few casualties occur near usable and defendable/clearable airfields, and there are precious few of those anyway. Helicopters are still the best option, by far - the only option, in fact.

Offline BurmaShave

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2019, 21:53:43 »
As far as self protection and other issues are concerned, the Cessna 208B Caravan is in operational use by several air forces, and can be adapted to carry weapons like the Hellfire missile. Unarmed the Caravan is also a pretty heavy duty load hauler and can be considered a 21rst century version of the Twin Otter (including the ability to fit floats and skis if required).

Of course most of these air forces use the Caravans as utility transports and the occasional support aircraft in low intensity conflicts. A deployment like Mali would be the closest equivalent for us.

Caravan, Twotter, An-2...none of those matter in a world where the Chinook exists. Yeah, they're "short takeoff and landing". Still need at least a quarter mile. The Chinook needs a dirt patch. Five times the payload capacity. Same cruise speed.

Light transports can have better range. Good for up north (Two Otter) or SAR. More importantly:

Light transports are cheaper. Cheaper to operate, cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain. Good for civilian bush pilot stuff. Good if you're poor. We, for all our issues, are not poor.
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Offline Loachman

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2019, 23:09:41 »
Still need at least a quarter mile IED- and insurgent-free.

Runways, even primitive ones, are obvious.

That small clearing behind those trees, this open patch here, that one over there, and the one behind it, and that spot just to the left, and, and, and, and ... not so much.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #89 on: June 14, 2019, 00:48:44 »
Burma 1944 Medevac of Chindits from White City - The entire field cleared by hand (with explosive assistance) in order to get a pilot and a stretcher in and out.



Coincidentally, also in Burma in 1944



https://chindits.wordpress.com/2016/06/26/return-of-the-chindits-part-2/
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2019, 09:48:40 »
Burma 1944 Medevac of Chindits from White City - The entire field cleared by hand (with explosive assistance) in order to get a pilot and a stretcher in and out.




Worst case, a ‘Hook wouldn’t even need a STANAG-compliantly sized cleared pad at all, and could hover rock still for hours to load injured onto the ramp hovering 3-5’ directly about a narrow cleared route. 

As Burma Shave said, for all our issues, we’re not a force that needs cheap, operationally narrowly-employable crack-fillers where we have invested in capabilities that were invested in to provide breadth of service.  A Grand Caravan can’t mount a couple of M134Ds to ‘address LZ surprises,” etc.

Regards
G2G

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #91 on: June 14, 2019, 12:28:10 »
we’re not a force that needs cheap, operationally narrowly-employable crack-fillers

Hey, I'm in the room man  ;D
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #92 on: June 14, 2019, 21:44:48 »
I echo the suggestion to use the Chinook for the mission.

Offline Colin P

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2019, 22:54:54 »
Worst case, a ‘Hook wouldn’t even need a STANAG-compliantly sized cleared pad at all, and could hover rock still for hours to load injured onto the ramp hovering 3-5’ directly about a narrow cleared route. 

As Burma Shave said, for all our issues, we’re not a force that needs cheap, operationally narrowly-employable crack-fillers where we have invested in capabilities that were invested in to provide breadth of service.  A Grand Caravan can’t mount a couple of M134Ds to ‘address LZ surprises,” etc.

Regards
G2G

Does the twin rotor have an issue with the vortex ring state?

Offline Loachman

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2019, 23:28:17 »
One has to either deliberately or very stupidly cause that to happen.

I know of only one case in the CF, many years ago - a Sea King at an air show in the US.

A couple of us tried in a Jet Ranger in Portage once, with lots of recovery altitude, and couldn't make it happen.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2019, 08:20:48 »
Does the twin rotor have an issue with the vortex ring state?

Abused/improperly operated, any helicopter can be placed into vortex ring state, however, a Chinook has three factors in its favour for generally avoiding VRS: 1) relatively lower rotor-disc loading (eg. 8.5 lbs/sqft CH-147F vs 11.5 lbs/sqft for the CH-149 Cormorant) so it tends not to force induced flow into a recirculating condition leading to VRS; 2) high available power, which can serve to break the recirculation of rotor induced flow (not a recommended recovery technique); and 3) a non-circular overall rotor shape, which tends to also make recirculation of induced flow easier to stop once formed.  One would have to fly a Chinook rather badly to induce VRS, and the recovery technique (simple side-slip, or a pedal-turn to swing sideways) if rather effective to recover with minimal altitude loss.

Regards,
G2G

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #96 on: June 15, 2019, 11:29:03 »
One has to either deliberately or very stupidly cause that to happen.

I know of only one case in the CF, many years ago - a Sea King at an air show in the US.

A couple of us tried in a Jet Ranger in Portage once, with lots of recovery altitude, and couldn't make it happen.

It happened again to a Sea King during a simulated freestream south of Victoria in 2015. The copilot (a student) mismanaged the evolution and the instructor pilot let it get too far so he could not recover in time. They impacted the water, did an integrity check then lifted off and returned to CYYJ. They were lucky- the aircraft suffered almost no damage.

Offline Loachman

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #97 on: June 25, 2019, 10:33:33 »
Okay - so there are now two cases of which I am aware, both involving Sea Kings. Is that simply a coincidence, or is was there something about the Sea King that made it more prone?

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2019, 13:01:09 »
To swing back to the premise of the article quoted and linked in the OP, the author was primarily discussing Air Force "distributed operations" and the utility of smaller aircraft and expedient airfields.
Quote
Taking Distributed Ops Seriously

This article isn’t intended to substitute a detailed analysis done by air logistics professionals. If NATO is going to consider distributed operations in Europe, we need to consider them seriously. That means we need a more detailed look at the logistics requirements of distributed operations and the ability of current airlifters to service them in a difficult environment. Logisticians cannot rely on long-haul ground transport for timely movement of crews and weapons – it’s bad enough that NATO will likely have to rely on ground transport for fueling a very thirsty fighter force. The Russians are aware of this and can be expected to make ground transportation as difficult as possible. We have a case study that shows how to air supply dispersed locations – the story of Vietnam is one of shifting bases, changing requirements, and use of distributed forces. In Vietnam, the enemy was often foliage, water, and terrain, but was a difficult and unforgiving adversary for all of that.

Air transport is only as viable as the aircraft that fly the routes and the airfields that make up the network. Europe has the airfields to sustain a robust air effort, right up to the point where Russian missiles start hitting them. After that point, the kind of aircraft we have matter a lot more if they can fly into short, damaged, or makeshift airfields. The Russians simply cannot deliver the weight of precision ordnance necessary to prevent Twin Otter operations across the theater – there aren’t that many missiles in their inventory. Given the huge cost disparity between the C-130 and the Twin Otter, it would seem that a relatively paltry investment in new small airlift aircraft could pay big dividends. It also offsets requirements for redundant personnel and equipment by reducing what we have to send forward in the initial dispersal by providing a more dynamic re-supply capability that can adjust for local conditions and operational requirements. Just having this kind of aircraft in the inventory will greatly complicate the targeting picture for Russian forces and add to the weight of NATO’s deterrent.

I came across this "example" of exercising such in Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_cxkF6qSY8

The airlift specific stuff starts around the 1:00 mark and at the 3:49 mark there is a quick Canadian connection.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The Need for a Small Tactical Airlifter
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2019, 15:54:26 »
Especially convenient for ‘most of NATO’ where intra-AO travel occurs over distances notably smaller than in Canada.