Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 187753 times)

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Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1425 on: September 12, 2020, 14:14:39 »


This government is entirely uninterested in hearing from firearms owners and experts.

Thanks for your opinion. I won't attempt to dispute that because I'm not confident I'm on safe grounds to do so.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1426 on: September 12, 2020, 14:20:20 »
Thanks for your opinion. I won't attempt to dispute that because I'm not confident I'm on safe grounds to do so.

Good, because you're not. This gov't gives the square root of frig all's amount of shits what gun people have to say.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline shawn5o

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1427 on: September 12, 2020, 14:20:41 »
Caliber restrictions are the most pointless thing possible. How does banning any specific caliber accomplish any sort of reduction in crime?

You got me there EL17

I have no idea why certain calibres are banned. Saturday night specials perhaps?
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Offline shawn5o

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1428 on: September 12, 2020, 14:22:54 »
Or we could ban rap music and target the gangster culture flourishing in big cities causing violence, shootings and crime.

If it helps - go for it. Main reason - I can't stand rap and gangster culture.

“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Online SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1429 on: September 12, 2020, 14:32:27 »
Thanks for your opinion. I won't attempt to dispute that because I'm not confident I'm on safe grounds to do so.

Fair enough. Don’t take my word for it alone. Ask around.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/cntrng-crm/cfac/index-en.aspx

Edited: to add the link to the bios of the advisory council. Not one member possesses what I would call a “technical expertise” in firearms. It would be about like having a medical policy  advisory council composed of bus drivers, auto mechanics and florists.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 14:39:58 by SeaKingTacco »

Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1430 on: September 12, 2020, 14:33:38 »
Good, because you're not. This gov't gives the square root of frig all's amount of shits what gun people have to say.

On that I can say that I'm perfectly confident in saying that's not true. If only for their own political reasons of knowing they need to fear the reaction of the gun lobby.

But obviously more.

The gun lobby's attitude of all or nothing is probably not going to work. Make the best of the situation with some positive input that can be received by the estimated 70% majority.

Fwiw, I've been trying to inject a bit of moderation into this conversation.

If it's somewhere close to unanimous that I should just butt out of the conversation then I'll do so. Otherwise I think that some are at least interested in debating and rebutting my opinions. Reserved as they are!
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Offline GAP

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1431 on: September 12, 2020, 14:43:20 »
Quote
If it's unanimous that I should just butt out of the conversation then I'll do so

do so
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Online SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1432 on: September 12, 2020, 14:46:09 »
On that I can say that I'm perfectly confident in saying that's not true. If only for their own political reasons of knowing they need to fear the reaction of the gun lobby.

But obviously more.

The gun lobby's attitude of all or nothing is probably not going to work. Make the best of the situation with some positive input that can be received by the estimated 70% majority.

Fwiw, I've been trying to inject a bit of moderation into this conversation.

If it's somewhere close to unanimous that I should just butt out of the conversation then I'll do so. Otherwise I think that some are at least interested in debating and rebutting my opinions. Reserved as they are!

Moderation and cooperation in the firearms community hasn’t really worked. Because the Liberals like to demonize firearms owners as evil and treat every firearms issue as a zero sum game, where owners do not get due process or input. Consequently, over time, the owners become more and more militant and fight every initiative around firearms because one can never be sure it is not a Trojan horse for abolition. Which is not awesome for anyone.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1433 on: September 12, 2020, 14:48:28 »
do so

I disagree. Nobody will learn anything if people “just butt out” of subjects they are unfamiliar with.

I am more than willing to politely debate you, Donald.

Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1434 on: September 12, 2020, 14:55:49 »
Moderation and cooperation in the firearms community hasn’t really worked. Because the Liberals like to demonize firearms owners as evil and treat every firearms issue as a zero sum game, where owners do not get due process or input. Consequently, over time, the owners become more and more militant and fight every initiative around firearms because one can never be sure it is not a Trojan horse for abolition. Which is not awesome for anyone.

I hear you! If that is so then the Liberal party is not in tune with it's voters who must be fairly representative of gun owners. It's not just Conservatives who enjoy the sport. And so that indicates to me that the Liberal party should be running up against a brick wall at some point in time.

I'll speak for myself. I'll either support the Liberals or the party that has the best chance of beating the Conservative in my riding. And I'm supportive of gun related sports with some qualifications.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1435 on: September 12, 2020, 15:02:29 »
One of the problems with a caliber restriction is that the cutoff point is entirely arbitrary as it in all things searching to define a "type" as it is comitting an essentialist error in logic. It is actually worse than that as the caliber is not a measure of the firearm's power at all as it does not take into account the case capacity of the round. Banning a firearm/round due to it's muzzle energy of 10000 joules is better I guess but what if I use a round with 9999 joules? One of the reasons I have a 6.5x55 and a 260 is that in some places in Ontario you can not carry a larger caliber rifle during the hunting season where rifle hunting is not permitted.

Offline Target Up

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1436 on: September 12, 2020, 15:04:51 »
I hear you! If that is so then the Liberal party is not in tune with it's voters who must be fairly representative of gun owners. It's not just Conservatives who enjoy the sport. And so that indicates to me that the Liberal party should be running up against a brick wall at some point in time.

I'll speak for myself. I'll either support the Liberals or the party that has the best chance of beating the Conservative in my riding. And I'm supportive of gun related sports with some qualifications.

There is no brick wall when you can ram through anything you like with an OIC. Gun owners were already compliant with a pretty balanced system between safety and liberty to go play guns in the bush. The people you need to worry about are the ones that don't play by the rules, including bringing unreg'd firearms across an international border. One, ten, or a hundred more laws aren't going to make them quit, nor will it make Jane and Finch even the tiniest bit safer after dark on a Friday night.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1437 on: September 12, 2020, 15:18:02 »
I hear you! If that is so then the Liberal party is not in tune with it's voters who must be fairly representative of gun owners. It's not just Conservatives who enjoy the sport. And so that indicates to me that the Liberal party should be running up against a brick wall at some point in time.
You are confusing Liberal voters with the Liberal Party. There a re lots of Liberal gun owners who still vote Liberal for more reasons than gun laws. They are wiling to sacrifice their sport for what they perceive to be a greater societal good.

The Liberal Party, however, is hard over against any type of civilian gun ownership and that has been shown time and time again by the legislation they bring into force which is intended to make legal gun ownership so difficult, complicated and expensive that it will be abandoned as a sport form/hobby in Canada.These laws, by and large, target lawful owners only because criminals already ignore gun laws and more won't mean anything to them. A case in point is the potential buyback (compensated confiscation) regime which the Liberals may enact to collect up and destroy the lawfully owned newly banned 1800+ models of firearms. That buyback, if eventually offered, will only apply to lawfully owned guns. No incentive there for criminals to turn in theirs.

I'll speak for myself. I'll either support the Liberals or the party that has the best chance of beating the Conservative in my riding.
That's your choice and the majority here will respect that, even if they don't support it.
 
And I'm supportive of gun related sports with some qualifications.
I'd like to hear some examples of those qualifications you'd like to see enacted above and beyond those that are already in place in Canada and your rationale for each.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 15:34:08 by Haggis »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1438 on: September 12, 2020, 15:28:39 »
Quote from: Haggis

 I'd like to hear some examples of those qualifications you'd like to see enacted above and beyond those that are already in place in Canada.

Gender parity with the club management.
Mandatory course on climate change.
Regulate number of vehicles traveling to the range per day
Advisory board for the spot who lack any knowledge on firearms.
Sole sourced contract to set up a committee on something or another.
Has to use ammunition purchased in Quebec?
+40
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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1439 on: September 12, 2020, 15:35:06 »
Gender parity with the club management.
Mandatory course on climate change.
Regulate number of vehicles traveling to the range per day
Advisory board for the spot who lack any knowledge on firearms.
Sole sourced contract to set up a committee on something or another.
Has to use ammunition purchased in Quebec?
STOP HELPING!!!
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1440 on: September 12, 2020, 15:52:21 »
Gender parity with the club management.
Mandatory course on climate change.
Regulate number of vehicles traveling to the range per day
Advisory board for the spot who lack any knowledge on firearms.
Sole sourced contract to set up a committee on something or another.
Has to use ammunition purchased in Quebec?

Funnily enough, the gender parity thing is happening (Maybe not fast enough for some) on its own and is healthy for sport shooting Canada. I have met some wicked good women shooters. Good on them for being a part of the sport.

Offline Donald H

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1441 on: September 12, 2020, 16:02:06 »
I disagree. Nobody will learn anything if people “just butt out” of subjects they are unfamiliar with.

I am more than willing to politely debate you, Donald.

Thank you! I basically ignore that kind of crap.

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Offline Haggis

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1442 on: September 12, 2020, 16:16:42 »
Funnily enough, the gender parity thing is happening (Maybe not fast enough for some) on its own and is healthy for sport shooting Canada.
But is hasn't been legislated yet.
I have met some wicked good women shooters. Good on them for being a part of the sport.
Women are the fastest growing demographic in sport shooting today. The Liberals and anti-gun groups, however, are making huge efforts to tell those women that guns are bad and dangerous and they should find a less socially toxic hobby than sport shooting.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1443 on: September 12, 2020, 16:25:33 »
But is hasn't been legislated yet.Women are the fastest growing demographic in sport shooting today.

I was about to mention that.

Quote
The Liberals and anti-gun groups, however, are making huge efforts to tell those women that guns are bad and dangerous and they should find a less socially toxic hobby than sport shooting.
Yes, with Mrs Wendy Cukier leading the crusade. Well, when she's not busy bullying people in the work place (and quietly being fired).

Excellent figure to preach being less toxic that Mrs Cukier.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1445 on: September 12, 2020, 18:07:16 »
And the people speak:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/people-are-super-frustrated-gun-owners-firearm-activists-march-at-parliament-hill/ar-BB18YmCm?ocid=msedgdhp

Quote
An estimated 800 gun owners and firearm rights activists assembled on Parliament Hill on Saturday to express their displeasure with the federal government’s gun policies, especially the ban on assault-style firearms announced after the mass killing in Portapique, N.S., in April.

Interesting estimate. CCFR is estimating around 5000.






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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1446 on: September 12, 2020, 18:29:45 »
Interesting estimate. CCFR is estimating around 5000.

Not to argue Gun Politics with you Jarnhamar, but this is what I read,

Quote
Organizers claimed 5,000 people flooded the streets of Ottawa for the rally, but the parliamentary security service said the number was closer to 800.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7331295/pro-gun-rally-parliament-hill/


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Online SeaKingTacco

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1447 on: September 12, 2020, 18:48:17 »
I am no expert but, if the picture above is actually from the rally, that looks alot closer to 5000 people, than 800 (at least on the Sparks St Mall. Maybe they didn’t all go onto Parliament Hill.

Offline Retired RCN

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1448 on: September 12, 2020, 19:16:29 »
I am no expert but, if the picture above is actually from the rally, that looks alot closer to 5000 people, than 800 (at least on the Sparks St Mall. Maybe they didn’t all go onto Parliament Hill.

That is a picture from the march, 700 to 800 was reported as the attendance 32min before the start. Parliamentary Protective Services estimated 5000 plus.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #1449 on: September 12, 2020, 19:27:58 »
Parliamentary Protective Services estimated 5000 plus.

Not to disagree, but can you post a source for that?

Quote
Organizers claimed 5,000 people flooded the streets of Ottawa for the rally, but the parliamentary security service said the number was closer to 800.
https://globalnews.ca/news/7331295/pro-gun-rally-parliament-hill/


In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER