Author Topic: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 82272 times)

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #550 on: September 23, 2019, 14:48:03 »
Which police force is going to go on to FN land and disarm them of their "assault rifles" and other soon to be banned weapons.

I can't think of any officer I know that is prepared to face the two way range over that, and I would not support the army once again being asked to take up arms against people in our own country.

Eating crow and stand corrected: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/drugs-guns-cash-peguis-first-nation-1.5294088

Looks like they modified the barrel on the bolt action sniper rifle as well. This could have been a bloodbath.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #551 on: September 23, 2019, 16:22:09 »
75,634 AR15's as of August 14, 2019. A small drop in the bucket when you consider the number of other firearms that will likely be identified as "assault weapons". Easily over a million I'd say. Maybe closer to 5?
Wonder where the Liberals would get the money for compensation.


And what would the Liberals DO with all these firearms? Destroy them? Store them with the police?

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-hundreds-of-guns-go-missing-from-the-mounties-military-and-other-departments
Quote
Newly-released documents from the RCMP and other federal departments and agencies show that if the risk of lost and stolen guns is an issue, then we better think of taking guns from the Mounties, maybe even the military.

Firearms researcher Dennis Young obtained a list of the number of guns lost or stolen by police or public agencies from 2005 through 2019 and the numbers might shock you.

A total of 640 firearms were reported lost in that time frame, another 173 were reported stolen.

640 lost firearms. Ouch.  Military has lost 559 firearms and another 14 stolen between 2008-18.
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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #552 on: September 23, 2019, 18:24:01 »
Sorry, I have a hard time believing in "lost" firearms. I think someone (multiple someones) have sticky fingers and can't resist.

I consider 95% of "lost" stats stolen personally.

Unless their is a logical reason, people can "lose" firearms easily.. happened in combat? Ok I'll buy that... but I don't think thats the case.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #553 on: September 23, 2019, 20:40:05 »
75,634 AR15's as of August 14, 2019. A small drop in the bucket when you consider the number of other firearms that will likely be identified as "assault weapons". Easily over a million I'd say. Maybe closer to 5?
Wonder where the Liberals would get the money for compensation.


And what would the Liberals DO with all these firearms? Destroy them? Store them with the police?

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-hundreds-of-guns-go-missing-from-the-mounties-military-and-other-departments
640 lost firearms. Ouch.  Military has lost 559 firearms and another 14 stolen between 2008-18.

As a guy who has been running SNACs, every quarter, for 2 decades I would like to know the details behind the 559 lost firearms and 14 stolen. 

If there is one thing we done mess about with its verifying those E class items (weapons) every quarter. 

Any destroyed in service are written off but that's not a loss in the same manner as this article is making it out.



« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 20:44:36 by Halifax Tar »
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #554 on: September 23, 2019, 21:34:19 »
Sorry, I have a hard time believing in "lost" firearms. I think someone (multiple someones) have sticky fingers and can't resist.

I consider 95% of "lost" stats stolen personally.

Unless their is a logical reason, people can "lose" firearms easily.. happened in combat? Ok I'll buy that... but I don't think thats the case.

Abdullah

I’ve seen two weapons lost one went overboard in swan lake (nothing comes back out of that place, second one off a bridge in Germany so yes lost does happen.
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Offline garb811

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #555 on: September 23, 2019, 21:52:27 »
Looking at what was produced in response to that ATIP request, it looks like someone took the lazy way out when they processed it by just doing a generic CCJS search in SAMPIS without actually seeing what the items lost actually was. "THEFT, PUBLIC (WEAPON)" or "LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPON)" can be anything that is associated with a weapon. So some of those will be actual weapons, but the vast majority will be EIS items, probably with C7/C8 mags topping the list by a huge margin.

ie. Between 20 and 30 July 2012 there were 13 LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPONS) files generated in Gagetown. Do you think that might not have warranted some kind of panic if there were 13 instances of actual weapons being lost, or is it more probable 13 items of EIS being lost by students out in the training area and recorded under that CCJS code because there isn't any other alternative? Anyone who has been DS on a course in Gagetown, Wainwright, Petawawa, Meaford etc has probably had to deal with at least one lost mag at the end of a trace...

Edit: Typo
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 22:02:48 by garb811 »

Offline ballz

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #556 on: September 24, 2019, 01:07:43 »
ie. Between 20 and 30 July 2012 there were 13 LOST, PUBLIC (WEAPONS) files generated in Gagetown.

Tangent, but somewhere in that 10-day period the entire Infantry School was sweeping for a lost ELCAN by one of the demo staff. I remember missing our forced rest window for it during Ph III. Your post was a trigger for a memory I had repressed.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #557 on: September 24, 2019, 02:04:27 »

I’ve seen two weapons lost one went overboard in swan lake (nothing comes back out of that place, second one off a bridge in Germany so yes lost does happen.

I believe 100% that loss DOES happen, but at what rate I feel is subject to debate. Had a quick look at your profile, you have 30 some odd years of service? And personally seen 2 weapons lost?

I am not trying to insult, belittle or mock the respective organizations. I just think, maybe x% of firearms reported as lost are actually stolen is all. I originally stated 95%, but I think maybe I was to harsh with that.

Regardless legitimate cases exist. No debate at all, I have been around the block enough to know crap happens.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #558 on: September 24, 2019, 06:44:40 »
Anyone who has been DS on a course in Gagetown, Wainwright, Petawawa, Meaford etc has probably had to deal with at least one lost mag at the end of a trace...

And to the folks who say "it's just a mag", it's also a prohibited device under the CC and FA and a controlled asset. How many "lost mags" have been recovered by contractors, scavengers in the trg areas (yes, it happens) or follow-on course and never properly dealt with?
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Offline garb811

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #559 on: September 24, 2019, 10:03:39 »
Tangent, but somewhere in that 10-day period the entire Infantry School was sweeping for a lost ELCAN by one of the demo staff. I remember missing our forced rest window for it during Ph III. Your post was a trigger for a memory I had repressed.
It isn't a tangent. If the ELCAN wasn't found, it will be one of those files.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #560 on: September 24, 2019, 10:05:05 »
And to the folks who say "it's just a mag", it's also a prohibited device under the CC and FA and a controlled asset. How many "lost mags" have been recovered by contractors, scavengers in the trg areas (yes, it happens) or follow-on course and never properly dealt with?

Crap happens when doing the business.  I've dropped mags during quick mag change on an attack and seen some go missing on an attack. Train like you fight and sometimes you just don't have time to put them in the drop pouch. 

Luckily the miltiary isn't beholden to the firearms act, otherwise we would never get any real training done. 

As for lost weapons, funniest one I saw was a Canadian Maple Branch snag a C7 out of the bustle rack of a LAV.  Spent a couple of hours driving around looking for that thieving tree! 

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #561 on: September 24, 2019, 11:36:10 »
Luckily the military isn't beholden to the firearms act, otherwise we would never get any real training done. 

I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that the item is still prohibited when not in the lawful (i.e. duty or training related) possession of a CAF member or other exempted person.  E.g. A troop "loses" a C7 magazine or two on an FTX.  Then, he uses the magazine in his dreaded S&W AR-15 clone on a civilian range.  That magazine is prohibited as it is not lawfully in his possession as he is now subject to the CCC/FA .  That's what I meant.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #562 on: September 24, 2019, 13:29:47 »
Good side of banning firearms out west.

Less things criminals, burglers and intruders have to worry about being hurt with.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/alberta-man-who-fired-warning-shots-at-bandits-is-now-being-sued-for-damages-by-one-of-them/ar-AAHJRjc?li=AAggNb9
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 14:51:55 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #563 on: September 24, 2019, 13:38:54 »
Good side of banning firearms out west.

Less thibgs criminals, burglers and intruders have to worry about being hurt with.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/alberta-man-who-fired-warning-shots-at-bandits-is-now-being-sued-for-damages-by-one-of-them/ar-AAHJRjc?li=AAggNb9

This is why nobody in Alberta likes or respects the RCMP any more  :nod:

Not really their fault as they are just agents of the state but a little common sense would go a long way.

Offline Mister Donut

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #564 on: September 24, 2019, 14:03:48 »
I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that the item is still prohibited when not in the lawful (i.e. duty or training related) possession of a CAF member or other exempted person.  E.g. A troop "loses" a C7 magazine or two on an FTX.  Then, he uses the magazine in his dreaded S&W AR-15 clone on a civilian range.  That magazine is prohibited as it is not lawfully in his possession as he is now subject to the CCC/FA .  That's what I meant.

If founnd, a law abiding fire arm owner would put a rivet in that magazine :p
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Offline Jonezy76

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #565 on: September 24, 2019, 20:01:21 »
 Another promise from JT is to “further strengthen safe-storage laws”. (Which are already rock solid) I'm thinking they are looking seriously into centralized storage. Ranges will have increased costs for facilities and security or close up completely. The costs related to sport or recreational shooting would skyrocket. More costs = less shooters = exactly what the Liberals want.

More importantly, centralized storage makes confiscation oh so easy.....
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #566 on: September 25, 2019, 08:38:40 »
I'm thinking they are looking seriously into centralized storage.

Blair specifically mentioned centralized storage at gun clubs and ranges for gun owners in urban areas during an interview on CTV's Question Period. This is because those are the only places where one can legally use them. 
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #567 on: September 25, 2019, 09:13:06 »
Blair specifically mentioned centralized storage at gun clubs and ranges for gun owners in urban areas during an interview on CTV's Question Period. This is because those are the only places where one can legally use them.

Unless your firearms are non-restricted. Not everyone that lives in a urban area has restricted firearms, or belongs to a gun club.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #568 on: September 25, 2019, 09:22:59 »
Centralized storage is a throw away COA.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #569 on: September 25, 2019, 09:30:36 »
We are such a fractured group of people, Canadian Firearms owners.  We have just as much suspicion and mistrust from within as we do for the outside. 

What defence can we mount ?

I am very interested to see what happens if the Liberals manage to pull another majority and pass their plans into legislation and law.  There are allot of key board commandos talking about resistance and vaguely veiled hints of possible violent resistance as well. 

I for see the sale of rifle length PVC piping and caps, strong plastic bags and shovels to skyrocket.
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Offline Jonezy76

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #570 on: September 25, 2019, 09:45:13 »
We are such a fractured group of people, Canadian Firearms owners.  We have just as much suspicion and mistrust from within as we do for the outside. 

What defence can we mount ?

I am very interested to see what happens if the Liberals manage to pull another majority and pass their plans into legislation and law.  There are allot of key board commandos talking about resistance and vaguely veiled hints of possible violent resistance as well. 

I for see the sale of rifle length PVC piping and caps, strong plastic bags and shovels to skyrocket.

The amnesty for the LGR lasted as long as the registry did, one could only hope that there will be non-compliance or owners taking advantage of the 2 year amnesty. If only 10% or 25% of "assault weapons" are turned in, the amnesty will be extended. The only other recourse would be to start a legal protest.

IF the government wants to ban any firearms by OIC, then the firearms act automatically creates grandfathered ownership privileges for all affected owners via 12.8 of the firearms act. If they do this, everyone who holds a registration certificate for these firearms will receive a new registration certificate indicated prohibited status, and should at the same time receive a new license indicating prohibited in some way. If for whatever reason you are not eligible for a prohibited license, or if the government tries to enact that ban without grandfathered privileges, you will receive a seizure notice in the mail, giving you 30 days to comply or file a protest. Filing a protest is free, and involves you requesting a S74 judicial review of the revocation of your certificate. You do not need a lawyer for this. You will be given a court date. Probably 9-12 months away.  You have 9-12 months to find a lawyer, tell them about your actual court date, and pay them for actual advise.

With or without them you will go in front of the judge, plead your case, and the judge will rule that the order was properly enacted, that governments are allowed to make stupid laws, and will order you to comply with the seizure notice. IN other words, you will lose. BUT, then you get to file an appeal. This will cost money. You will NEED a lawyer. This will take at least a year. By this point the court system will be clogged with hundreds of thousands of reviews and appeal requests that the Crown Attorneys will be begging the government to do something or else bona fide criminals will be having their cases tossed due to excessive delays.

2 year amnesty + 1 year wait for court + waiting for an appeal. Hopefully the conservatives will get elected and repeal that nonsense by then.

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #571 on: September 25, 2019, 14:22:17 »
 Taken from the shipbuilding thread:

 “The tribunal was still formulating an official response to the government’s use of the exception, which the Liberal government quietly expanded over the summer without any consultation with industry or experts”

This expansion* of power appears to be a running theme from all levels of Canadian government in many areas- from ship building to gun control.

If the federal government gives municipalities any powers whatsoever in gun control (which many cities are requesting)  they will most assuredly ban most firearms and then seek to expropriate some existing ranges for police training purposes. This might be constitutional overreach, but if a province approves then it can be done.

The only provinces that might push back are in the West, with the exception of BC.

*  silent exercise of raw legal power for political purpose.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 14:25:54 by Cloud Cover »
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #572 on: September 25, 2019, 21:35:52 »


The only provinces that might push back are in the West, with the exception of BC.

I suspect that Ontario under Ford, no friend of John Tory or anything Toronto. might also push back.
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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #573 on: September 28, 2019, 22:47:29 »
I get that, but it doesn't change the fact that the item is still prohibited when not in the lawful (i.e. duty or training related) possession of a CAF member or other exempted person.  E.g. A troop "loses" a C7 magazine or two on an FTX.  Then, he uses the magazine in his dreaded S&W AR-15 clone on a civilian range.  That magazine is prohibited as it is not lawfully in his possession as he is now subject to the CCC/FA .  That's what I meant.

If he wanted a 30 round mag for his AR, he can just drill out the rivet. A whole bunch simpler and expedient than ******* with the military horseshit over a lost mag.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #574 on: September 28, 2019, 23:23:58 »
If he wanted a 30 round mag for his AR, he can just drill out the rivet. A whole bunch simpler and expedient than ******* with the military horseshit over a lost mag.

Isn't this prohibited in Canada too? 4 nails and some electrical tape.

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