C3 Howitzer Replacement

[calculus]

There is one behind the Kingston Military Community and Sports Complex, in-between the Constantine Arena and the Applied Military Science building for RMC.

I'll snap a picutre the next time I'm down that way.

There's one just inside the main entrance to Connaught Ranges in the West end of Ottawa.

 

[FJAG]

I'd previously mentioned that I had a spreadsheet of the disposition of all of Canada's M109s. I've found it.

 

[KevinB]

I'd previously mentioned that I had a spreadsheet of the disposition of all of Canada's M109s. I've found it.

View attachment 91525
View attachment 91526

I cry

 

[MacNav63]

I cry

Criminal

 

[TSM A]

I'd previously mentioned that I had a spreadsheet of the disposition of all of Canada's M109s. I've found it.

View attachment 91525
View attachment 91526

CFR 77235 is now at the Armed Forces Museum in BC.

 

[Underway]

Wasn't sure where this should go so I put it here. Please copy/paste where you think it should be.

Canada to acquire up to 98 new 155mm self-propelled howitzers in artillery modernisation programme

The Canadian government has launched a procurement process for the Indirect Fires Modernisation (IFM) programme.

defence-industry.eu

 

[Czech_pivo]

Wasn't sure where this should go so I put it here. Please copy/paste where you think it should be.

Canada to acquire up to 98 new 155mm self-propelled howitzers in artillery modernisation programme

The Canadian government has launched a procurement process for the Indirect Fires Modernisation (IFM) programme.

defence-industry.eu

I thought that we had 44 M777 previously, of which 4 went to Ukraine, leaving us with 40. This article states that we have only 33 currently, anyone know where the other 7 went?
Is this a ‘win’ for the CAF? Is the 80-98 on the shopping list leading to us having an increase in overall numbers of tubes available for the CAF?
From the 105-81mm motar side the numbers proposed look to be a net reduction in what we currently have? Are we growing the numbers overall or yet again reducing our numbers?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

We had 37 M777, previously.

 

[OldSolduer]

Is it really necessary to replace the 105 calibre?

 

[PrairieFella]

Is it really necessary to replace the 105 calibre?

Yeah, it's not overly useful anymore due to range limitations and our allies don't really use it anymore. If we were smart, the ARes arty units outside of the catchment areas of the RCHA would get the hand-me-down M777s and the reservists close enough to the RCHA would get SPG quals.

 

[TSM A]

Yeah, it's not overly useful anymore due to range limitations and our allies don't really use it anymore. If we were smart, the ARes arty units outside of the catchment areas of the RCHA would get the hand-me-down M777s and the reservists close enough to the RCHA would get SPG quals.

Honestly the M77 is too big for most Reserve armouries. As well there's 11 ARes units that are also saluting bases and they need the C3/LG1 to do salutes.

 

[dapaterson]

Saluting is a secondary task that can be abolished with little to no impact.

The Army Reserve's constant attempts at self justification with tasks only they care about is tiresome.

 

[KevinB]

Saluting is a secondary task that can be abolished with little to no impact.

The Army Reserve's constant attempts at self justification with tasks only they care about is tiresome.

100%, additionally there are multiple methods to accomplish the salute noise that don't require a howitzer to do it.

 

[FJAG]

I thought that we had 44 M777 previously, of which 4 went to Ukraine, leaving us with 40. This article states that we have only 33 currently, anyone know where the other 7 went?
Is this a ‘win’ for the CAF? Is the 80-98 on the shopping list leading to us having an increase in overall numbers of tubes available for the CAF?
From the 105-81mm motar side the numbers proposed look to be a net reduction in what we currently have? Are we growing the numbers overall or yet again reducing our numbers?

We're left with 33 of which 24 are actively used by the three RCHA regiments, with the rest as spares and with the RCAS.

The project is a major gain in operational guns. How big a gain depends on how many are bought at the end of the day and whether or not the M777s will be retained or disposed of.

The 105 calibre hasn't been an operational gun since 2005. It's used for training and as a saluting gun only.

The 120mm mortars are also a net gain. We haven't had that calibre since the 1960s (and also 4.2 inch) and its needed to support our battalions. The issue is whether it will be given to the reformed mortar platoons in infantry battalions or assigned to artillery reserve units. Again, a question is what will be done with the 81mm mortars that we have.

Is it really necessary to replace the 105 calibre?

The CAF likes to simplify maintenance and supply and make room in ammo dumps for new calibres. IMHO, no it is not necessary to replace the 105mm calibre. It has its uses as a less expensive training round but the guns are on their last legs. The C3 since the 1950s (with new barrels in the 1990s) and the LG1 since the 1990s. Both have numerous issues which need resolving. Avalanche control needs a 105mm. Salutes need a 105mm. Those are problematic issues.

Yeah, it's not overly useful anymore due to range limitations and our allies don't really use it anymore. If we were smart, the ARes arty units outside of the catchment areas of the RCHA would get the hand-me-down M777s and the reservists close enough to the RCHA would get SPG quals.

Lets do some simple math. The 24 M777s right now have PYs for detachments of ten. With a new SP, one could get by with 5 man detachments split between the gun and ammo an ammo limber (more would be better depending on the ammo handling system). That means we could double the guns in RegF regiments to 48 which is just short of the 54 needed to create three 18-gun regiments. But three six-gun battery regiments would also need quite a few more folks for recce, command posts, A echelons etc. Bottom line one either needs more PYs or one needs to create a stable RegF/ResF hybrid regiment concept.

Moreover, even at 54 guns, and lets say 8 at the school and tech spares, we have more guns left over. Probably a six and a spare or two would be predeployed forward to Latvia. That leaves between 10 to 20 which could be assigned to ResF training centres.

I really want to see the M777s retained. With only a little manipulation of how you organize regiments in a peacetime setting - for example in a hybrid regiment where you have one or two fully equipped full-time batteries and one or two ResF batteries that share equipment, you could equip 14 batteries which could form anywhere from seven to 14 regiments with modern equipment rather than the three we have. Add to that STA batteries/troops and loitering munition batteries and SUAS and MRR batteries and air defence and you'd be hard pressed to man them with the current PY and ARes positions available right now.

There are some terrific possibilities right now if we take advantage of them.

 

[dapaterson]

100%, additionally there are multiple methods to accomplish the salute noise that don't require a howitzer to do it.

Backfire on a poorly tuned muscle car, for example...

 

[Czech_pivo]

We're left with 33 of which 24 are actively used by the three RCHA regiments, with the rest as spares and with the RCAS.

The project is a major gain in operational guns. How big a gain depends on how many are bought at the end of the day and whether or not the M777s will be retained or disposed of.

The 105 calibre hasn't been an operational gun since 2005. It's used for training and as a saluting gun only.

The 120mm mortars are also a net gain. We haven't had that calibre since the 1960s (and also 4.2 inch) and its needed to support our battalions. The issue is whether it will be given to the reformed mortar platoons in infantry battalions or assigned to artillery reserve units. Again, a question is what will be done with the 81mm mortars that we have.


The CAF likes to simplify maintenance and supply and make room in ammo dumps for new calibres. IMHO, no it is not necessary to replace the 105mm calibre. It has its uses as a less expensive training round but the guns are on their last legs. The C3 since the 1950s (with new barrels in the 1990s) and the LG1 since the 1990s. Both have numerous issues which need resolving. Avalanche control needs a 105mm. Salutes need a 105mm. Those are problematic issues.


Lets do some simple math. The 24 M777s right now have PYs for detachments of ten. With a new SP, one could get by with 5 man detachments split between the gun and ammo an ammo limber (more would be better depending on the ammo handling system). That means we could double the guns in RegF regiments to 48 which is just short of the 54 needed to create three 18-gun regiments. But three six-gun battery regiments would also need quite a few more folks for recce, command posts, A echelons etc. Bottom line one either needs more PYs or one needs to create a stable RegF/ResF hybrid regiment concept.

Moreover, even at 54 guns, and lets say 8 at the school and tech spares, we have more guns left over. Probably a six and a spare or two would be predeployed forward to Latvia. That leaves between 10 to 20 which could be assigned to ResF training centres.

I really want to see the M777s retained. With only a little manipulation of how you organize regiments in a peacetime setting - for example in a hybrid regiment where you have one or two fully equipped full-time batteries and one or two ResF batteries that share equipment, you could equip 14 batteries which could form anywhere from seven to 14 regiments with modern equipment rather than the three we have. Add to that STA batteries/troops and loitering munition batteries and SUAS and MRR batteries and air defence and you'd be hard pressed to man them with the current PY and ARes positions available right now.

There are some terrific possibilities right now if we take advantage of them.

Thanks for this detailed info.

Question - if we used to have 76 M109's and we ridded ourselves of them and went with 37 M777's, that's a massive 'net loss' of capability. If we are going back to 80-98 units and we ditch the M777's are we not merely going back to what we previously had 15-20yrs ago in terms of total units available? We had 76 M109's and could go to 80 new units, maybe, maybe 98 if a miracle occurs.

 

[FJAG]

Saluting is a secondary task that can be abolished with little to no impact.

The Army Reserve's constant attempts at self justification with tasks only they care about is tiresome.

100%, additionally there are multiple methods to accomplish the salute noise that don't require a howitzer to do it.

It's dead simple to store three or four C3s in the basement or floor of an armory. Maintenance by technicians is near 0 if all that they are used for is saluting. Enough 105mm blanks take up a tiny fraction of TDM storage space. Management of the system would be a tiny secondary task. Training on it would be a minor secondary task as bringing a C3 into and out of action is really quite simple and the fire discipline needed would be the same as the troops' primary weapon.

There's no need to go another direction. I really dislike our army's attitude that you have to sweep clean in order to introduce a new capability.

Thanks for this detailed info.

Question - if we used to have 76 M109's and we ridded ourselves of them and went with 37 M777's, that's a massive 'net loss' of capability. If we are going back to 80-98 units and we ditch the M777's are we not merely going back to what we previously had 15-20yrs ago in terms of total units available? We had 76 M109's and could go to 80 new units, maybe, maybe 98 if a miracle occurs.

No. The Reg F only manned 36 M109s and 18 LG1 in nine batteries and went to 24 M777 in the regiments (plus a few more at the RCAS). M777s are heavy on detachment numbers - 10 per gun; the others ran around 7. Most of the people that were saved on the gun line were put into substantially heavier FSCC dets, more and larger FOO dets, and three STA batteries with radars and UAVs. There is no going back from that. It's either more PYs (which will be there for air defence and possibly the LRPR) I have no insight as to if there are more PYs with the modernization project.

 

[MilEME09]

Being a min of 3 people per gun the new program likely will have an autoloader or atleast semi automated reducing crew needs which means additional PYs won't be needed. Given how many we are buying plus LRPF etc. We are wanting to get our arty out of enemy range. Talking to the 3 Div commander yesterday, the armies mind set is that right now 777 in a conventional war would be setting up under enemy fire already. So how do we mitigate that? Increased range, but also trying to get faster to reduce time on location

 

[Rifleman62]

Saluting is a secondary task that can be abolished with little to no impact.

The Army Reserve's constant attempts at self justification with tasks only they care about is tiresome.

100%, additionally there are multiple methods to accomplish the salute noise that don't require a howitzer to do it.

Go retro: "Rockets red glare...". A salute that Trump may like if he ever visits.

 

[KevinB]

It's dead simple to store three or four C3s in the basement or floor of an armory. Maintenance by technicians is near 0 if all that they are used for is saluting. Enough 105mm blanks take up a tiny fraction of TDM storage space. Management of the system would be a tiny secondary task. Training on it would be a minor secondary task as bringing a C3 into and out of action is really quite simple and the fire discipline needed would be the same as the troops' primary weapon.

There's no need to go another direction. I really dislike our army's attitude that you have to sweep clean in order to introduce a new capability.

To me there is zero reason to retain them and the gun tractors for them if all they are needed for is saluting - you can accomplish the same thing with 3 guys in a pickup truck with a few flash bangs, or a propane cannon.

No. The Reg F only manned 36 M109s and 18 LG1 in nine batteries and went to 24 M777 in the regiments (plus a few more at the RCAS). M777s are heavy on detachment numbers - 10 per gun; the others ran around 7. Most of the people that were saved on the gun line were put into substantially heavier FSCC dets, more and larger FOO dets, and three STA batteries with radars and UAVs. There is no going back from that. It's either more PYs (which will be there for air defence and possibly the LRPR) I have no insight as to if there are more PYs with the modernization project.

To me the Army needs to decide what it wants to be when it grows up. Given the SPA numbers, and the reported intent to create a Light Bde, retaining the M777 makes sense - use 30th 11th and 56th to make numbers up for 2 RCHA as a 24 gun 777 Reg't - and the SPA for the rest for the other Artillery units.